BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

From ofb-inc. at ix.netcom.com Thu Feb 6 05:50:25 1997
From: ofb-inc. at ix.netcom.com (Gregory C. Brown)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Charcoal Kilns
Message-ID: <199702061052.CAA11258@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>

Dear "Stoves",
I saw a reference on the internet to a charcoal making stove. I
have built a portable metal kiln that just produced about 700 pounds of
charcoal in two days. No external sources of energy are necessary for
operation.
for more info send reply
Best Regards ... Greg Brown

 

From shell at wolfenet.com Thu Feb 6 12:59:24 1997
From: shell at wolfenet.com (Ronald Kent)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Charcoal Kilns
In-Reply-To: <199702061052.CAA11258@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <199702061805.KAA25411@wolfe.net>

Dear "Stoves",
I saw a reference on the internet to a charcoal making stove. I
have built a portable metal kiln that just produced about 700 pounds
of charcoal in two days. No external sources of energy are necessary
for operation.
for more info send reply
Best Regards ... Greg Brown

Dear Greg, Replying to say that I am very interested in the scale of
the unit and am looking for more details. I am in Western Wasington
State (USA).

My potential fuel source is alder of 3-16" diameter and of convenient
lengths of green to air dry moisture content. I look forward to
hearing more details.

Ron Kent

 

From troberts at vax2.rainis.net Sun Feb 9 20:38:06 1997
From: troberts at vax2.rainis.net (Tom & Paula Roberts)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Elvira Cooking Stove
Message-ID: <32FE7DA5.8D0@vax2.rainis.net>

We are looking for an Elvira Cooking Stove for our Kitchen. Can you
help us with info as to where we can purchase. Please respond.
Thank you. Tom

 

From J.J.Todd at geog.utas.edu.au Sun Feb 9 21:34:36 1997
From: J.J.Todd at geog.utas.edu.au (J.J.Todd@geog.utas.edu.au)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Elvira Cooking Stove
Message-ID: <199702100241.NAA12469@corinna.its.utas.edu.au>

>We are looking for an Elvira Cooking Stove for our Kitchen. Can you
>help us with info as to where we can purchase. Please respond.
>Thank you. Tom

Tom and Paula
I am not sure if it is the 'Elmira' cooking stove range you are after. If
so the manufacturer's address is: Elmira Stove Works, 22 Church St. W.,
Elmira, Ontario N3B 1M3, Canada. This address is from adirectory of
wood-burning cooking stoves I prepared about ten years ago, so I hope it is
still current.
John Todd
University of Tasmania, Australia

 

 

From bhatta at ait.ac.th Sun Feb 9 23:15:46 1997
From: bhatta at ait.ac.th (Prof. S.C. Bhattacharya)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Elvira Cooking Stove
In-Reply-To: <199702100241.NAA12469@corinna.its.utas.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.94.970210111829.10799A-100000@rccsun>

 

It is nice to hear from you, Dr. Todd in this list. Can you please send
the name of the publisher of your directory of stove manufacturers so that
I can obtain a copy.

Cheers.

S.C. Bhattacharya
-------------------------------------------------------------------
S. C. Bhattacharya Voice : (66-2) 524 5403 (Off)
Professor 524 5913 (Res)
Asian Institute of Technology Fax : (66-2) 524 5439
GPO Box 2754, Bangkok 10501 516 2126
Thailand e-mail: bhatta@ait.ac.th
-------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 10 Feb 1997 J.J.Todd@geog.utas.edu.au wrote:

> >We are looking for an Elvira Cooking Stove for our Kitchen. Can you
> >help us with info as to where we can purchase. Please respond.
> >Thank you. Tom
>
> Tom and Paula
> I am not sure if it is the 'Elmira' cooking stove range you are after. If
> so the manufacturer's address is: Elmira Stove Works, 22 Church St. W.,
> Elmira, Ontario N3B 1M3, Canada. This address is from adirectory of
> wood-burning cooking stoves I prepared about ten years ago, so I hope it is
> still current.
> John Todd
> University of Tasmania, Australia
>

 

 

From mheat at mha-net.org Mon Feb 10 14:33:29 1997
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: 1997 masonry heater testing
Message-ID: <32FF6B94.6FC7@mha-net.org>

Hello Everybody:

We are in the middle of our 1997 masonry heater test series, and have
put up a new page at the Lopez Labs website with current data as it
becomes available. You can view digital images of today's burn at

http://mha-net.org/msb/html/lopezc.htm

Best........Norbert Senf
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Norbert Senf email: mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders mheat@hookup.net
RR 5, Shawville website: http://mha-net.org/msb
Quebec J0X 2Y0 fax: 819.647.6082
voice: 819.647.5092

 

From 73002.1213 at compuserve.com Thu Feb 13 09:21:02 1997
From: 73002.1213 at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Charcoal Kilns
Message-ID: <970213142611_73002.1213_FHM77-1@CompuServe.COM>

Thomas B. Reed 303 278 0558 V Colorado School of Mines
1810 Smith Rd., 303 278 0560 FX Department Chem Eng
Golden, CO 80401 73002.1213@Compuserve.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Greg:

I know Bhatacharya fairly well and talked to him (but was prevented from a
visit) when I was in Bangkok last November. I am currently writing to him to
get more information on the "ferrocement" gasifier/kiln construction method
pioneered by Bob Reines. I'll post whatever I find to you. I hope to use this
construction for various gasifiers. However, I believe to be most effective
that it needs to be insulating ferrocement. Dense refractories are not very good
insulators. I can't find anyone on the internet to comment on such construction.
Any ideas?

I hadn't heard of the two types of kilns you mentioned. I would say

1) that burning the "smoke" is useful for energy and necessary to suppress the
incredible pollution that charcoal making causes

2) that portability and "ferrocement" kilns probably don't go together

3) our "top burning" method of firing may bring a new dimension to charcoal
making (but requires moderately dry wood)

4) keep us posted on your progress and we'll do the same for you.

Tom Reed (and Ron Larson)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Subject: Re: Charcoal Kilns
To: Thomas Reed <73002.1213@CompuServe.COM>

Dear Tom,
I made a new contact in Bangkok who is working on a research
project funded by the Swedish Intl. Development Corp. Agency (SIDA) to
prepare state of the art reports on biomass combustion, gasification,
densification, and carbonization. His name is Prof. S.C. Bhattacharya
e-mail--- bhatta@ait.ac.th
In our communications he mentioned a research project carried out
by Natural Resources Institute of UK (NRI). That is where I originally
got my plans for the kiln etc. They did an experiment using 20 kilns
(Doing batch processing) using a staggered firing order to ensure a
constant supply of smoke to be burned. I have sent away for this
Report, and it usually takes a couple of weeks to receive. Have you
heard of this project or NRI?
The Professor also mentioned work called the Cornell Retort? are
you familiar with this project? Our goal is to keep this project as
LOW-TECH as possible, putting as many PEOPLE to work as possible. I
think it would be redundant to use a cyclone and baghouse if the end
product would still need further treatment (combustion), do you agree?
Any suggestions you can offer would be greatly appreciated. We plan to
do all our processing well away from populated areas. We also need to
make whatever process of a portable nature, just as our kilns are.
Hope to hear from you soon...
Greg Brown
<

 

 

From verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au Fri Feb 21 07:00:04 1997
From: verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Downdraft BBQ
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970221110549.00688314@janus.cqu.edu.au>

Dear Stovers,

Why does the phrase "The dead Poet's Society" keep playing through
my head?

Today we did a test, I had just finished the finishing touches on my
downdraft barbecue. I bought two T-bone steaks, chopped the firewood, put it
into a plastic bucket, weighed it and started the fire. Irma made a lettuce
salad and got all the utensils out.

Relevant data:
Weather: fine, light to moderate SE to NE winds, temperature 33 C.

Bucket with firewood: 2600 g
Start the fire 12.02 hrs
No visible or smellible smoke 12.14
Steaks placed: 12.18
Steaks done: 12.27

Let's say the fire burned at its steady rate for another 5 minutes e.g. to
12.32 hrs

Bucket with remaining firewood: 2050 g
Wood burned: 550 g

Oh, the steaks were great, starting mass about 600 g. There was no smoke
after 12.14 except when Irma put the fat rinds on the fire, that gave rise
to black smoke.

The wood:
A sample of 402 g was placed in an oven, set at 100 C (not checked) at 13.47
At 14.52 it was taken out and weighed 384 g
Back in oven from 14.55 to 16.14 376 g
Back in oven from 16 16 to 17.15 374 g ~ constant
Moisture content on dry basis: (402 - 374)* 100/374 = 7.49 %

Average power input, assuming combustion energy of dry wood of 19 MJ: 5.4 kW
Not bad for a grate area of 12 *12 cm?

The stove appeared not very sensitive to wind, very useful for this region.

Sorry, no charcoal, everything burned up.

Tom Miles' E-mail put me on to the Indian Institute of Science and Mrs.
Gayathri, who kindly sent me the Newsletters, one of which contained the
article and a non disclosive picture of the Swosthee Stove.

Apparently a cry for help about the Elvira Stove brought John Todd out of
the woodwork.

Arjun Bahadur from AIT asked me about measuring airflow in stoves.

And that was it as far as action on the stove front was concerned, have we
run out of smoke, eh, steam I mean?

Piet Verhaart
Peter Verhaart 6 McDonald St Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
Phone: +61 79 331761 Fax: +61 79 331761 or 332112
E-mail: verhaarp@janus.cqu.edu.au

 

 

From larcon at csn.net Fri Feb 21 09:09:56 1997
From: larcon at csn.net (Ronal Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970221110549.00688314@janus.cqu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9702210702.A20073-0100000@teal.csn.net>

 

Peter - thanks for a "Dead Poet" input. I really expect to get back in on
my own, but you have raised one topic that I just have to respond to right
away. Comments on steaks later.

RE YOUR: > Arjun Bahadur from AIT asked me about measuring airflow in
stoves. >

WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE? (ANYONE ELSE - PLEASE FEEL FREE TO JOIN IN)

Ron Larson

 

From JAKEHUFF at aol.com Fri Feb 21 09:28:09 1997
From: JAKEHUFF at aol.com (JAKEHUFF@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <970221093452_-1005498878@emout16.mail.aol.com>

Ron, thanks for the info . I'll give it to my friend, Don Post. Bye. Jake

 

From verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au Fri Feb 21 18:45:26 1997
From: verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970221225239.00682750@janus.cqu.edu.au>

Dear Ron,

At 07:17 21/02/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Peter - thanks for a "Dead Poet" input. I really expect to get back in on
>my own, but you have raised one topic that I just have to respond to right
>away. Comments on steaks later.
>
>RE YOUR: > Arjun Bahadur from AIT asked me about measuring airflow in
>stoves. >
>
> WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE? (ANYONE ELSE - PLEASE FEEL FREE TO JOIN IN)
>
>Ron Larson
>
>At 00:02 19/02/97 +0700, you wrote:
>Could you please advice me how the air flow rate is determined while
>testing a stove emission in an enclosed condition?
>
>
>
>***********************************************
>* Arjun Bahadur k.c mail box 1092 *
>* Energy technology program(AIT) *
>* P.O.BOX 4,Klongluang,Pathumthani 12120 *
>* Thailand *
>***********************************************
>
You have to take advantage of the particular circumstances of the test under
consideration. But first, what do you mean by "enclosed condition"?
If you can analyse the combustion products e.g. CO2, CO and O2 and if you
have reason to believe the burning rate is reasonably constant, you can
derive the airflow rate from the rate of fuel consumption and the gas
analysis results. This assumes only a small percentage of particulate
emissions is produced.
If you have a stove with a chimney and a pressure gauge that can measure
pressures in the order of 1 Pascal, you could calibrate the chimney with
various airflow rates, taking into account the density of the combustion
gases in the actual tests.
Tell me more about the stove(s) you propose to test.
Ragards,

Peter Verhaart
Peter Verhaart 6 McDonald St Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
Phone: +61 79 331761 Fax: +61 79 331761 or 332112
E-mail: verhaarp@janus.cqu.edu.au

 

 

From mheat at mha-net.org Fri Feb 21 19:00:19 1997
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <199702220007.TAA13176@nic.ott.hookup.net>

At 07:17 AM 21/02/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Peter - thanks for a "Dead Poet" input. I really expect to get back in on
>my own, but you have raised one topic that I just have to respond to right
>away. Comments on steaks later.
>
>RE YOUR: > Arjun Bahadur from AIT asked me about measuring airflow in
>stoves. >
>
> WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE? (ANYONE ELSE - PLEASE FEEL FREE TO JOIN IN)
>
>Ron Larson

We did some air flow measurements in the 15 l/sec to 30 l/sec range on
masonry heaters a number of years ago. The methodology is detailed in a
paper located at http://mha-net.org/msb/html/papers-n/airreq/cmhc-rep.htm

Best.......Norbert Senf
----------------------------------------------------------
Norbert Senf -----------------email: mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders -------website: www.mha-net.org
RR 5 Shawville----------------fax: 819.647.6082
Quebec J0X 2Y0----------------voice: 819.647.5092

 

 

From J.J.Todd at geog.utas.edu.au Fri Feb 21 23:41:26 1997
From: J.J.Todd at geog.utas.edu.au (J.J.Todd@geog.utas.edu.au)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Hello from Tasmania
Message-ID: <199702220448.PAA03130@corinna.its.utas.edu.au>

This is just a quick hello from John Todd to all my colleagues in the
stoves discussion group. I have followed the many issues discussed by the
group with interest over the past year or so but work pressures left little
time for me to participate. I hope I can make the time from here on.
For those of you I have not met, I work at the Centre for Environmental
Studies in the University of Tasmania, Australia. I am also involved with
Standards Australia and the ISO in the woodstove area. Most of my research
in this field is focussed on air pollution from woodheaters (i.e. domestic
wood burning heaters in developed countries like Australia and the US).
More specifically I am looking at design improvements to the appliances,
public education on correct heater use, test methods and control
legislation, and the social benefits of firewood use. Occasionally I work
on firewood supply or cooking stoves in developing countries (e.g. a
Masters student of mine is just completing a thesis on firewood supply and
demand in one district of Kenya).
I look forward to becoming more involved in your discussions in the coming
months.
Regards John Todd

 

 

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Sat Feb 22 13:43:01 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Downdraft BBQ
Message-ID: <199702221346_MC2-119C-82FA@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed 303 278 0558 V Colorado School of Mines
1810 Smith Rd., 303 278 0560 FX Department Chem Eng
Golden, CO 80401 73002.1213@Compuserve.com

Dear Piet:

We stovers are fortunate to have a member from "down under" who can run
significant experiments outside while the rest of us are frozen inside. I
had planned to do some experimental work outside today, based on
yesterday's high of 12C. It would have been more realistic to pay
attention to this morning's -9C.

There have been remarkably few actual reports of new experiments on this
network. Most people seem to be happy to pass around the same old
information. In the first few months there were dozens of descriptions of
"new tests", but yours is the first in a long time.

You described the experiment on the "downdraft" stove. Is this the same
one I saw at Eindhoven last October? You didn't say anything about the
configuration - or the steak. Was the cooking gridle on the horizontal
run? Did you add more combustion air before?

I havn't seen any data on the Swothee stove. How does it look?

Don't be surprised if some of us drop in on you to see how it goes (and
enjoy the warm weather and see the barrier reef and discuss Neville Shute
and......)

Tom Reed

PS I presume you know that the "Dead Poet's Society" is a movie with Robin
Williams - one of his best.

 

From mheat at mha-net.org Sat Feb 22 16:49:26 1997
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Downdraft BBQ
Message-ID: <199702222155.QAA14423@nic.ott.hookup.net>

At 01:46 PM 22/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Thomas B. Reed 303 278 0558 V Colorado School of Mines
>(snip)
>There have been remarkably few actual reports of new experiments on this
>network. Most people seem to be happy to pass around the same old
>information. In the first few months there were dozens of descriptions of
>"new tests", but yours is the first in a long time.
>

For those with web access, and the interest, we are currently doing some
masonry heater combustion testing with large cordwood (2- 5 kg pieces, 40 cm
long) and posting the results to our website. The data includes color photos
of the burn taken at 5-10 minute intervals.

Most recent test is located at http://mha-net.org/msb/html/lopezc.htm

Best..........Norbert Senf
----------------------------------------------------------
Norbert Senf -----------------email: mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders -------website: www.mha-net.org
RR 5 Shawville----------------fax: 819.647.6082
Quebec J0X 2Y0----------------voice: 819.647.5092

 

 

From gayathri at aero.iisc.ernet.in Sun Feb 23 01:22:16 1997
From: gayathri at aero.iisc.ernet.in (Gayathri)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Downdraft BBQ
Message-ID: <9702231655.AA26655@aero.iisc.ernet.in>

 

 

From mheat at mha-net.org Sun Feb 23 07:41:37 1997
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Presentation of results
Message-ID: <199702231248.HAA20090@nic.ott.hookup.net>

At 02:36 PM 23/02/97 +1100, you wrote:
>Dear Robert,
>
> Just had a look at your Home Page (not for the first time) and I
>would like to complement you on the excellent presentation.
>
>Just one query, I assume the vertical axis of the Temp & O2 graph represents
>Fahrenheit Temp and O2 percentage with 10 units representing 1 percentage
point?
>
>So you have an air factor of >3. I suppose with large pieces the surface
>area/ mass ratio does not favour a lower air factor?
>
>In your tests you fire one charge of fuel and let it burn out, is that how
>you expect the heaters to be run?
>
>Best regards,
>
>Peter Verhaart
>Peter Verhaart 6 McDonald St Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
>Phone: +61 79 331761 Fax: +61 79 331761 or 332112
>E-mail: verhaarp@janus.cqu.edu.au
>
Hello Peter:

Yes, we burn a single charge of fuel. This saturates the heat exchangers, so
you have to wait before refiring. We're trying to balance a number of
different factors in order to get (in order of importance): low emissions,
good bakeoven performance, good efficiency, high heating capacity, minimum
processing of fuel.

During peak flaming, the oxygen can get down to 8 or 9%. One of the
peculiarities of this particular fuel configuration is that there is a
tendency for a CO spike at the beginning, once everything gets going and is
in positive feedback mode, and before there is an ash or char layer on the
surface of the wood. It therefore needs an extra slug of air at the
beginning. Limiting the surface area by using larger wood helps also.

On the emissions end, we are starting from a cold start, so about 50% of the
total particulates happen during the first 15 minutes of a 2 hour burn.
There are a number of peculiarities associated with the batch burn,
including a high excess air and high CO charcoal phase at the end.

The 70 lb loading that we are using right now is close to the practical
limit for the refractory materials and hardware, in terms of being able to
endure thousands of thermal cycles from a cold start. Again, the larger wood
helps here.

I'd like to get the oxygen down a little (about 250% is considered optimum
for this application). We haven't done any serious work with the air supply
yet, since the firebox and fuel geometry seem to be the biggest influence,
and we need to figure it out one step at a time.

Our stack temperature is a little high, and we could switch in an additional
heat exchanger at the tail end. Lowering stack temp by 100F would give an
additonal 5 -6 % overall efficiency if oxygen didn't change.

Best Regards........Norbert
----------------------------------------------------------
Norbert Senf -----------------email: mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders -------website: www.mha-net.org
RR 5 Shawville----------------fax: 819.647.6082
Quebec J0X 2Y0----------------voice: 819.647.5092

 

 

From IYONE at aol.com Sun Feb 23 09:59:23 1997
From: IYONE at aol.com (IYONE@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Gas and Electric Stoves
Message-ID: <970223100609_584336887@emout01.mail.aol.com>

I am a sixth grader at Smoke Rise Elementary. We are doing a Social
Science
Project. My topic is "Does Gas Stoves Cook Better than Electric Stoves?" Can
I have information on gas stoves and electric stove? Thanks!!

 

From prasad at tn7.phys.tue.nl Mon Feb 24 04:19:06 1997
From: prasad at tn7.phys.tue.nl (prasad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Downdraft BBQ
In-Reply-To: <199702221346_MC2-119C-82FA@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <9702240916.AA21214@tn7.phys.tue.nl>

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From verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au Mon Feb 24 04:55:30 1997
From: verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Downdraft BBQ
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970224090235.0068e900@janus.cqu.edu.au>

At 10:16 24/02/97 +0100, you wrote:
>To:Tom Reed, Piet Verhaart and othe Stovers
>
>From:Prasad
>
>I've no new news. But "Dead Poets' Society" was indeed a very nice movie.
>They don't make such no more!
>
>Prasad
>
>From Piet Verhaart to Prasad

Yep, it was a good movie.

To Tom Reed.
More on the BBQ soon, why don't you come and try it? You and Vivian and Sara
(she sits on your lap most frequently, I gather) most welcome.
Cheers

Piet Verhaart
Peter Verhaart 6 McDonald St Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
Phone: +61 79 331761 Fax: +61 79 331761 or 332112
E-mail: verhaarp@janus.cqu.edu.au

 

 

From verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au Tue Feb 25 00:44:24 1997
From: verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Gas and Electric Stoves
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970225045051.0068dd48@janus.cqu.edu.au>

Dear Iyone,

At 10:06 23/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
> I am a sixth grader at Smoke Rise Elementary. We are doing a Social
>Science
>Project. My topic is "Does Gas Stoves Cook Better than Electric Stoves?" Can
>I have information on gas stoves and electric stove? Thanks!!
>
Rather a wide scope. The simple answer is NO.
Actually some dishes would cook better on a gas stove, others better on an
electric stove.
In general a gas stove has a higher heat output rate and can bring the pan
to operating temperature faster. A juicy steak would therefore cook better
on a gas stove.

Another matter is the impact on the environment.
A gas stove burns the gas to Carbon dioxide and water vapour, the first
could contribute to the Greenhouse effect.
An electric stove uses electricity. Now the environmental effect depends on
how the electricity is generated. If it is generated in a coal burning power
station, coal is burned, which also produces Carbon dioxide. The efficiency
of the total system (power station, grid and distribution system) is such
that probably only 30 % of the thermal energy released by the coal reaches
the user with the stove. An electric stove can have a high efficiency,
perhaps up to 90 %. That still means that only .90 * .30 = .27 or 27 % of
the energy in the coal reaches the pan.
In a gas stove we can expect an efficiency of about 50 %, so the
environmental impact of an electric stove running on thermally generated
electricity is worse than of a gas stove.

Of course, the opposite applies if the electricity is generated at a
Hydro-electric plant. This process generates no Carbon dioxide at all.

Hoping this will get you started, all the best with your project.

Peter Verhaart
Peter Verhaart 6 McDonald St Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
Phone: +61 79 331761 Fax: +61 79 331761 or 332112
E-mail: verhaarp@janus.cqu.edu.au

 

 

From prasad at tn7.phys.tue.nl Tue Feb 25 05:45:48 1997
From: prasad at tn7.phys.tue.nl (prasad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9702210702.A20073-0100000@teal.csn.net>
Message-ID: <9702251043.AA22013@tn7.phys.tue.nl>

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From mheat at mha-net.org Tue Feb 25 09:01:07 1997
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:03 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <199702251408.JAA24026@nic.ott.hookup.net>

At 11:43 AM 25/02/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>(snip)
>At any rate, if anyone is interested, I can send a copy of the paper by
>"snail-mail" from which I have quoted the numbers above.
>The reference is:
>
>"Off-design Performance of Woodburning Cookstoves"
>Journal of Energy, Heat and Mass Transfer, vol.15, 21-44 (1993)
>
>Needless to say, postal address would be required.
>
>Prasad
>
Hello Prasad:

Yes, I would be very interested in obtaining a copy of the above paper. My
snail mail address should be at the bottom of this message. I'd be happy to
pay any associated costs.

Best.....Norbert
----------------------------------------------------------
Norbert Senf -----------------email: mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders -------website: www.mha-net.org
RR 5 Shawville----------------fax: 819.647.6082
Quebec J0X 2Y0----------------voice: 819.647.5092

 

 

From E.Moerman at stud.tue.nl Tue Feb 25 13:33:43 1997
From: E.Moerman at stud.tue.nl (E.Moerman)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <70618.s335192@popserver.tue.nl>

Ron, Piet and all others - I was contacted by Arjun Bahadur too and with
the same question. Below follows my answer. Sorry my contribution is not
bigger than this. Maybe in a few weeks time again.

Message from Arjun Bahadur:
> I am very soon going to carryout experiment for the determination of the
> emission factors for CO2,CO,CH4,NOx and N2O,NO.The fuel to be used for
> the testing is wood and the stove used is Indian one made of metal.I am
> doing this experiment in an enclosed condition but i am still confusing
> about how to determine the air flow rate necessary for burning the
> fuel.Could you please suggest on this.

My answer:
The problem with testing in enclosed conditions is that the airflow patterns
are very different than those in normal use. This disturbs the power output
and the gas emissions greatly.

For determining the airflow rate:
-choose the required power output, see pages 13-25
-determine combustion value of wood (think about moisture), see page 43
-your wood combustion rate is obviously: power output divided by combustion
value
-for the gasflow through the stove determine stoichiometric amount of air
(kg of air divided by kg of wood), see page 130
-multiply wood combustion rate by stoichiometric amount of air
-next everything depends on the actual stove and its use; you have to
estimate an excess air factor and multiply it with the number you just
calculated In practice for reasonable combustion you
need at least 1.3 for good combustion it should be between 1.5 and 2.1
however this reduces the efficiency. In virtually all actual stoves the
excess air factor lies between 2 and 3.

I hope this brief explanation is sufficient. If not let me know. By the way
references are pages in Paul Bussmann's thesis.
---------------------------------------------
Mr. Etienne Moerman E.Moerman@stud.tue.nl
Joh. Buyslaan 71 tel. +31-40-2571491
5652 NJ EINDHOVEN The Netherlands

 

From J.J.Todd at geog.utas.edu.au Tue Feb 25 22:13:03 1997
From: J.J.Todd at geog.utas.edu.au (J.J.Todd@geog.utas.edu.au)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <199702260319.OAA27577@corinna.its.utas.edu.au>

Dear Stovers
Ron Larson and Prasad were discussing measurement of mass flow in stove
flues. It can be done with tracer gas pulsed in at the bottom of a flue
and timed over a fixed distance. A radioactive trace is usually used but
it could be done with a shot of CO2 and a CO2 analyser further up the flue.
Obviously not suited to 'backyard' type test facilities. There are other
methods using CO2 and dilution tunnels which can give reasonable accuracy.
Also Jay Shelton (Shelton Energy Research, Santa Fe, New Mexico) has done
quite a lot of work on flue velocity measurement and has some reports on
the topic but I do not have them here at my office.

Prasad
Yes I would be very interested in the paper you mentioned from the Journal
of Energy, Heat and Mass Transfer (which is not in our library). My
address is
Dr John Todd, Centre for Environmental Studies, University of Tasmania, GPO
Box 252-78, Hobart, Tasmania 7001 Australia.
Thanks
Regards
John Todd

 

 

From mheat at mha-net.org Wed Feb 26 04:15:13 1997
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <199702260922.EAA03172@nic.ott.hookup.net>

Here's a somewhat off-the-wall idea for measuring flue mass flow:

This will depend on the exit stack temperature, and will obviously not work
with high temperatures.

Don Fugler over at Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation has developed an
interesting low cost technique for measuring flows from heating ducts, etc.
He has simply taken a standard green Glad garbage bag (standard in North
America, that is, not sure about equivalents elsewhere in the world), and
calibrated it's volume. The technique is to put the bag over the gas source
and time how long it takes to fill up.

Best......NOrbert Senf
----------------------------------------------------------
Norbert Senf -----------------email: mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders -------website: www.mha-net.org
RR 5 Shawville----------------fax: 819.647.6082
Quebec J0X 2Y0----------------voice: 819.647.5092

 

 

From verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au Wed Feb 26 04:32:57 1997
From: verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970226083933.0067debc@janus.cqu.edu.au>

Hi, Norbert and all Stovers
At 04:23 26/02/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Here's a somewhat off-the-wall idea for measuring flue mass flow:
>
>This will depend on the exit stack temperature, and will obviously not work
>with high temperatures.
>
>Don Fugler over at Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation has developed an
>interesting low cost technique for measuring flows from heating ducts, etc.
>He has simply taken a standard green Glad garbage bag (standard in North
>America, that is, not sure about equivalents elsewhere in the world), and
>calibrated it's volume. The technique is to put the bag over the gas source
>and time how long it takes to fill up.
>
Yes, very simple. It is the method Fred Hottenroth used to find the airflow
of his Zip Ztove in the early eighties.

Peter Verhaart
Peter Verhaart 6 McDonald St Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
Phone: +61 79 331761 Fax: +61 79 331761 or 332112
E-mail: verhaarp@janus.cqu.edu.au

 

 

From B.Tremeer at mail1.remote.uva.nl Wed Feb 26 05:04:20 1997
From: B.Tremeer at mail1.remote.uva.nl (Grant Ballard-Tremeer)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <199702261003.LAA29411@mail.uva.nl>

I am confused... Everyone seems to be answering different questions. To work
out stove emission factors one should know the flow rate past the gas sample
probe. So the question I ask is: "Where is Mr Bahadur measuring the gas
concentrations?".

I think when designing experiments for working out emission factors one
should first think carefully about the purpose of the tests, and then choose
the most appropriate method. Possibly, knowledge of air flow rate is not
needed. The purpose could be to get indicators to be used to improve the
stove, or to estimate the safety levels, or to compare stoves, or even for a
climate change study. The way one goes about the test will depend on this
purpose.

Is the original question about measuring airflow or estimating airflow? What
is an enclosed condition? Does this mean indoors? Does the stove have a
chimney? Remember that flow rate in a chimney changes as the temperature of
the flue gas changes, and burning conditions change.

Or am I badly confused about the original question?

Please let me know
Grant

PS The idea Norbert related for measuring flue exit flowrate is excellent
and could certainly be used for some types of hood test I think.

At 07:36 PM 2/25/97 +0100, Etienne wrote:
>Ron, Piet and all others - I was contacted by Arjun Bahadur too and with
>the same question. Below follows my answer. Sorry my contribution is not
>bigger than this. Maybe in a few weeks time again.
>
>
>Message from Arjun Bahadur:
>> I am very soon going to carryout experiment for the determination of the
>> emission factors for CO2,CO,CH4,NOx and N2O,NO.The fuel to be used for
>> the testing is wood and the stove used is Indian one made of metal.I am
>> doing this experiment in an enclosed condition but i am still confusing
>> about how to determine the air flow rate necessary for burning the
>> fuel.Could you please suggest on this.
>
>My answer:
>The problem with testing in enclosed conditions is that the airflow patterns
>are very different than those in normal use. This disturbs the power output
>and the gas emissions greatly.

 

Unless the stove is usually used in enclosed conditions?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Grant Ballard-Tremeer
fax: +31 20 525 6272 mark clearly c/o EPCEM
home telephone: +31 20 423 6954
Weesperstraat 47 k.16; 1018DN; Amsterdam; The Netherlands
email: B.Tremeer@mail.uva.nl
btremeer@hagar.mech.wits.ac.za

 

 

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Wed Feb 26 11:49:37 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <199702261155_MC2-11C5-3CA@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed 303 278 0558 V Colorado School of Mines
1810 Smith Rd., 303 278 0560 FX Department Chem Eng
Golden, CO 80401 73002.1213@Compuserve.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi:

Tracer gas meassurement yes, radioactive, not necessarily. In the early
NREL/SERI days they did a lot of measurement of VERY LOW pressure gas flow,
such aas infiltration of air into houses. Sulfur hexafluoride is easy to
handle, easy to detect and doesn't occur in nature. Still requires
laboratory equipment.

Comments?

TOM REED

 

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Wed Feb 26 11:49:37 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: Measuring stove airflow.
Message-ID: <199702261155_MC2-11C5-3C8@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed 303 278 0558 V Colorado School of Mines
1810 Smith Rd., 303 278 0560 FX Department Chem Eng
Golden, CO 80401 73002.1213@Compuserve.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi:

It's amazing that this close to the 21st century we should still have
problems measuring air flow in stoves. However, the problem is that
natural draft (from stoves, chimneys etc.) is SO SMALL - a few bars. A
rule of thumb is that a good chimney produces 0.01 inch of water column
draft for each foot of chimney. We have a 15 foot chimney on our Sea Sweep
pyrolyser and it gives 0.15 in of water at best.

I too have used the "Hottenroth Method" (garbage method) for measuring air
flow in stoves etc. One problem: gases can't be too hot, or burns the
bag. Second problem: The back pressure from garbage bag is less than most
other devices - yet there is alway some back pressure that will affect the
flow (in principle if not in practice). One can increase the back pressure
with weights on the bag, then extrapolate to zero back pressure.

Other comments welcome.

TOM REED

 

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Wed Feb 26 12:09:27 1997
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: New Address, Tom Reed
Message-ID: <199702261156_MC2-11C5-3DC@compuserve.com>

Thomas B. Reed 303 278 0558 V Colorado School of Mines
1810 Smith Rd., 303 278 0560 FX Department Chem Eng
Golden, CO 80401 ReedTB@Compuserve.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi All:

You may have noticed that I have stuck with Compuserve for many years,
despite many minor irritations, free E-mail at Mines etc. I notice that
other servers serve up minor irritations as well. So, for better or worse
I'll continue with CS.

One MAJOR irritation is the number address (which is labelled "unknown") in
many of my received messages. In 1995 they announced that they were going
to permit us to use names instead of numbers and said "please register you
name and we'll let you know when to start using it". About once I month I
write a note "where is it?" and get a response "be patient!".

Finally, this morning, under "what's new" it says I can use my NEW ADDRESS,

reedtb@compuserve.com

Nice, eh? Easy to remember? The old number still works as well.

While I have your patient ears, you may wonder why I am so prolix. In part
it is due to the fact that I took touch-typing in 8th grade and so can
type-like-talk. At that distant time it was thought that everyone would
have a secretary, so why learn typing. I did anyway.

I would be curious to know how many of you touch-type and how it correlates
with how many letters you E-mail a week.

In spite of the fact that I know how to touch-type, I have enjoyed using
the various computer Typing Tutors (ie Mavis Beacon....). I learned my
numbers and Symbols a few years ago and have never regreted it. I would
advise all the "search and sock", "Hunt and Peck" typists out there to
learn touch typing if you are younger than 80. It will pay off over your
remaining lifetimes (unless you have a "secretary" who knows all your
thoughts).

Best to all, TOM REED

 

From verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au Wed Feb 26 18:13:34 1997
From: verhaarp at janus.cqu.edu.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: New Address, Tom Reed
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970226221951.006867c0@janus.cqu.edu.au>

>From Piet Verhaart
To Tom Reed and to the other typing Stovers

>While I have your patient ears, you may wonder why I am so prolix. In part
>it is due to the fact that I took touch-typing in 8th grade and so can
>type-like-talk. At that distant time it was thought that everyone would
>have a secretary, so why learn typing. I did anyway.
>
>I would be curious to know how many of you touch-type and how it correlates
>with how many letters you E-mail a week.
>
>In spite of the fact that I know how to touch-type, I have enjoyed using
>the various computer Typing Tutors (ie Mavis Beacon....). I learned my
>numbers and Symbols a few years ago and have never regreted it. I would
>advise all the "search and sock", "Hunt and Peck" typists out there to
>learn touch typing if you are younger than 80. It will pay off over your
>remaining lifetimes (unless you have a "secretary" who knows all your
>thoughts).
>
>Best to all, TOM REED
>
Here is a convert talking. I began using typewriters off and on in the
middle fifties, continuing into the early eighties. Our infamous Woodstove
Compendium was typed on a computer but still using the 'hunt and peck' method.
In 1983 I bought a course, on paper and audio cassettes and suffered but
never looked back. It is a constant pleasure to stare into the far beyond
and let the words flow from the fingertips. Even if systematic glitches
occur, like when you landed on the home keys one key off, you get dp,ryjomh
;olr yjod. but that can be repaired with a simple Basic program.
Very strongly recommended and nowadays there is any number of good Typing
Tutors under various names.

Thank you for your patience, hoping it will swell the Woodstove Literature.

Cheers,
Piet Verhaart
Peter Verhaart 6 McDonald St Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
Phone: +61 79 331761 Fax: +61 79 331761 or 332112
E-mail: verhaarp@janus.cqu.edu.au

 

 

From rolittge at ucdavis.edu Wed Feb 26 19:10:01 1997
From: rolittge at ucdavis.edu (Roger Littge)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: New Address, Tom Reed
In-Reply-To: <199702261156_MC2-11C5-3DC@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970226160226.12097A-100000@rocky.ucdavis.edu>

Please forgive this brief tangental comment, but since Tom Reed suggested
that we all learn to touch type, and since I harbor a hope that we can
replace the standard keyboard, called qwerty, with an ergonomic key layout
as well as shape, I am bringing one example of such a keyboard to your
attention--the Maltron. For information, please check the "typing injury
FAQ" site at Princeton:

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~dwallach/tifaq/keyboards.html

or the company which sells the Maltron in the USA (lower cost than that
sold in the UK):

http://www.teleprint.com

Thanks for your attention, and, again, sorry for the digression.

Roger

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Littge, M.D. 916-752-7420
Biological and Agricultural Engineering fax:754-8129
Bainer Hall
U.C., Davis email: rolittge@ucdavis.edu
Davis, CA 95616

 

 

From dbanks at ilink.nis.za Thu Feb 27 04:36:17 1997
From: dbanks at ilink.nis.za (dbanks@ilink.nis.za)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: Measuring gas flow rate
Message-ID: <199702270942.LAA10471@ilink.nis.za>

There has been some recent discussion on this list regarding the measurement
of gas flow rate from stoves and fires.
I am sorry to note that Grant Ballard-Tremeer has not made some comments- I
will forward this email to him in the hope that he joins in.

(Stop press- I have just down loaded some mail, as I was about to send this
off- and see that Grant has joined in- But I'll send the letter anyway, as I
had already typed it in- and I would not want to waste the hunt and peck
minutes! Also, I see that Grant in his submission avoided the exact
question- how to measure airflow, and instead asked 'why measure airflow?'.)

He did some work at Wits University, South Africa, using the 'hood method'.
The stove/fire was lit inside a cabinet with an open front, and an
extraction pipe going out the top. The extraction was forced, using a small
fan further down the extraction pipe. He measured the gas flow rate through
the extraction pipe (chimney) using a orifice plate flow meter. (The
difference in gas pressure immediately before and after the orifice plate is
used, with suitable calibration coefficients and equations, to give the gas
flow rate).

Grant was fortunately able to calibrate his orifice plate using another,
calibrated wind tunnel. However, it is possible to derive the calibration
coefficients for an orifice plate directly from the dimensions. Thus pencil
and paper can replace the luxury of a calibrated wind tunnel. The British
Standards have quite specific guidelines for manufacturing orifice plates
(and the piping immediately before and after the orifice plate) so as to
make direct calibration unnecessary.

Grant used electronic gauges to measure the pressure drop- but this too can
be done using simpler methods (such as a water manometer).

Grant's work is written up in his Thesis: Emissions of Rural Wood-Burning
Cooking Devices (University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg).
There have also been some papers submitted by Ballard-Tremeer and Jawurek to
Biomass and BioEnergy. Unfortunately I do not know the exact dates of
publication (1995/96). The titles are given below:
Comparison of Five Rural, Wood-burning Cooking Devices: Efficiencies and
Emissions
The 'hood method' of measuring emissions of rural cooking devices
Evaluation of the dilution chamber method for measuring emissions of cooking
devices.

Yours,
Douglas Banks
Douglas Banks
P O Box 27, McGregor, 6708
Tel or fax: +27 2353 943 email: doug@engfac.uct.ac.za
http://www.nis.za/homepgs/dbanks/bankspot.htm (ceramics)
http://www.edr.uct.ac.za/~doug (rural and renewable energy)

 

 

From B.Tremeer at mail1.remote.uva.nl Fri Feb 28 08:27:50 1997
From: B.Tremeer at mail1.remote.uva.nl (Grant Ballard-Tremeer)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:35:04 2004
Subject: Measuring gas flow rate
Message-ID: <199702281326.OAA24739@mail.uva.nl>

I do have much to say about measuring emissions but I think the best method
for measuring the gas flow rate depends somewhat on the purpose. That is why
I am reticent to discuss how to do gas measurements until I know a bit more.
I am grateful to Douglas Banks for giving such a good summary of my approach
though. If anyone wants to discuss it more I am more than happy...

I have very little time just at the moment (and even though I touch type I
can't keep up with the email flood) - I am leaving for Poland on Tuesday for
12 days of field research on energy efficiency (but this time industrial not
domestic). I'm back, and hopefully will have some time to participate more,
on the 16th.

All the best
Grant

-------------------------------------------------------------
Grant Ballard-Tremeer
fax: +31 20 525 6272 mark clearly c/o EPCEM
home telephone: +31 20 423 6954
Weesperstraat 47 k.16; 1018DN; Amsterdam; The Netherlands
email: B.Tremeer@mail.uva.nl
btremeer@hagar.mech.wits.ac.za