December 1999 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From larcon at sni.net Sun Dec 5 17:46:46 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:26 2004
Subject: Forwarding request on charcoal briquetting
Message-ID: <v01540b00b4709e167c9d@[204.131.233.15]>

Gerry - our group is mostly concerned with small scale production. Can you
describe the scale of production in which you are interested. Ron

>From: "Gerry Custo" <gecus@odyssee.net>
>To: <stoves@crest.org>
>Subject: Briquettes manufacturing equipment
>Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:19:36 -0500
>
>Dear Sirs,
>I am located in Montreal, Canada, and I have a customer in Dominican =
>Republic who is looking for equipment to manufacture charcoal =
>briquettes. Can you please send me information from suppliers that I =
>could contact in North America for such equipment.
>Thank you very much.
>
>Gerry Custo
>60, Park Ridge
>Kirkland (Quebec)
>H9J 1P8
>CANADA =20

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From mheat at mha-net.org Sun Dec 5 22:29:22 1999
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:26 2004
Subject: P.O. Rosin paper online
Message-ID: <4.1.19991205214316.00a28100@mha-net.org>

Hello Everyone:

"The Aerodynamics of Domestic Open Fires", by Prof. P.O. Rosin, Institute
of Fuel (Britain), 1939

is now online at http://mha-net.org/msb/docs/rosin.PDF (3 Mb PDF File)

It's been an underground classic among fireplace masons for years, and
details Rosin's extensive hydrodynamic modelling of fluid flows in open
fireplaces. Heavily illustrated, 26 pages, recommended.

Best ....... Norbert
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam
Masonry Stove Builders
RR 5, Shawville------- www.heatkit.com
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092

From verhaarp at cqu.edu.au Mon Dec 6 06:01:48 1999
From: verhaarp at cqu.edu.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:26 2004
Subject: wood stoves
In-Reply-To: <99186D1802E9D211A98100104BB503850150813B@UK-LOP-MAIL01>
Message-ID: <000c01bf3fd9$a3556900$0d4c4d8a@cqu.edu.au>

Dear Monique & Laurence

The short answer to your question is NO. I do not know any brand names
or firms that make woodburning stoves.
Where we live now we don't need heating, only very occasionally. During my
so-called active life I was involved in woodburning cookstoves for
developing countries. We tried to find out what makes wood burn properly and
how to transfer the maximal amount of the heat to the cooking utensil.
During the decade of the project's existence, we found a way to burn wood
completely. I have built a wood burning barbecue on this principle, which
stops producing visible or smellible smoke 12 minutes after starting.

What you have to look for is a stove (I saw one in Tasmania built by a
private person) which directs the incoming air straight to the combustion
zone, after which the gases are led away from the fuel. Since you are
building a non-standard house you might consider having the stove modified.
It would need a conduit supplying combustion air to your stove. This might
involve sealing the door (if that is where the air normally enters).
You also migt look into "Top down burning". there is a U.S. web site
explaining it. The idea is to prevent contact of hot gases with fresh fuel.
If you burn a stack of fuel from the top down, the hot gases tend to rise
from the top of the fire, leaving the lower layers of fuel unaffected. In
this way no extra wood is exposed to heat, reducing the amount of smoke.

I hope this will be of some use, I have Cc'ed this to the Stoves Crest Org.
You might get some more directly usrful advice.

Let me know how you get on?

Regards,

Peter Verhaart
6 McDonald St, Gracemere Q 4702
Tel/Fax: +61 7 4933 1761
Mobile: 0412 457239
E-mail: p.verhaart@cqu.edu.au

----- Original Message -----
From: Monique Steijger-Storm <monique.steijger@cmgplc.com>
To: <verhaarp@janus.cqu.edu.au>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:39 PM
Subject: wood stoves

> Dear mr. Verhaart,
> I saw your answer to a question on "smoke in the kitchen" on
> http://solstice.crest.org . This is what you wrote:
>
> "Hardly daring to suggest it, but does your dragon draw its combustion air
> from the room to be heated? If so, the problem might be that the house is
so
> well built that there are insufficient air leaks to supply the stove.
There
> are stoves that draw their combustion air from outside (from the air
> space between inner and outer wall, for instance) and that kind would be
> better suited."
>
> We are building a highly insulated house in England and we are looking for
a
> wood stove which draws all the air it needs from outside, exactly because
of
> the reasons you mention above. You suggest that there are stoves
available,
> but do you know of any brand names or something, because we haven't been
> able to find one yet.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Laurence and Monique Steijger
> LSTEIJ@globalnet.co.uk or monique.steijger@cmgplc.com
>
>
>

From john at gulland.ca Mon Dec 6 06:56:04 1999
From: john at gulland.ca (John Gulland)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:26 2004
Subject: wood stoves
In-Reply-To: <000c01bf3fd9$a3556900$0d4c4d8a@cqu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <LPBBJBLEIKHIICEIEMANEELBCCAA.john@gulland.ca>

Dear Monique, Laurence, Peter, all,
Your exchange caught my attention because it falls within my area of
expertise. In Canada and the US it was so broadly assumed that a supply of
outdoor air to a stove would isolate it from room pressure that outdoor air
rules were put in building codes in the 1980s and early 1990s. But that was
before anyone tested the concept. In the late 1980s Canada Mortgage and
Housing Corporation did sponsor some good research and found that outdoor
air supplies are of marginal utility. It turns out that controlled
combustion heating stoves demand a tiny amount of combustion air in relative
terms (5 - 15 L/s or 10 - 30 cfm). It is a very rare house that cannot leak
that much air without becoming depressurized. Plus it was found that wind
effects around the exposed outdoor weatherhood for the air supply can lead
to reverse flow of hot gas though the air duct which could pose a fire risk.
We have since seen enough field evidence of reverse flow to serve as a
serious caution against directly connected supplies.

Better to specify a good venting system that runs straight up through the
warm space of the house, take the combustion air from the room and avoid
large exhaust devices like downdraft kitchen range exhausts. Since outdoor
air supplies have been somewhat discredited as a general approach, the
preferred strategy is to use good system design, combined with managing
house pressures to avoid severe depressurization by exhaust flows.

You'll find more information on our web site.
Regards,
John Gulland

The Wood Heat Organization Inc.
www.woodheat.org
A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood
==============================================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stoves@crest.org [mailto:owner-stoves@crest.org]On Behalf Of
> Peter Verhaart
> Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 6:04 AM
> To: Monique Steijger-Storm
> Cc: Stoves
> Subject: Re: wood stoves
>
>
> Dear Monique & Laurence
>
> The short answer to your question is NO. I do not know any brand names
> or firms that make woodburning stoves.
> Where we live now we don't need heating, only very occasionally. During my
> so-called active life I was involved in woodburning cookstoves for
> developing countries. We tried to find out what makes wood burn
> properly and
> how to transfer the maximal amount of the heat to the cooking utensil.
> During the decade of the project's existence, we found a way to burn wood
> completely. I have built a wood burning barbecue on this principle, which
> stops producing visible or smellible smoke 12 minutes after starting.
>
> What you have to look for is a stove (I saw one in Tasmania built by a
> private person) which directs the incoming air straight to the combustion
> zone, after which the gases are led away from the fuel. Since you are
> building a non-standard house you might consider having the stove
> modified.
> It would need a conduit supplying combustion air to your stove. This might
> involve sealing the door (if that is where the air normally enters).
> You also migt look into "Top down burning". there is a U.S. web site
> explaining it. The idea is to prevent contact of hot gases with
> fresh fuel.
> If you burn a stack of fuel from the top down, the hot gases tend to rise
> from the top of the fire, leaving the lower layers of fuel unaffected. In
> this way no extra wood is exposed to heat, reducing the amount of smoke.
>
> I hope this will be of some use, I have Cc'ed this to the Stoves
> Crest Org.
> You might get some more directly usrful advice.
>
> Let me know how you get on?
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Verhaart
> 6 McDonald St, Gracemere Q 4702
> Tel/Fax: +61 7 4933 1761
> Mobile: 0412 457239
> E-mail: p.verhaart@cqu.edu.au
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Monique Steijger-Storm <monique.steijger@cmgplc.com>
> To: <verhaarp@janus.cqu.edu.au>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:39 PM
> Subject: wood stoves
>
>
> > Dear mr. Verhaart,
> > I saw your answer to a question on "smoke in the kitchen" on
> > http://solstice.crest.org . This is what you wrote:
> >
> > "Hardly daring to suggest it, but does your dragon draw its
> combustion air
> > from the room to be heated? If so, the problem might be that
> the house is
> so
> > well built that there are insufficient air leaks to supply the stove.
> There
> > are stoves that draw their combustion air from outside (from the air
> > space between inner and outer wall, for instance) and that kind would be
> > better suited."
> >
> > We are building a highly insulated house in England and we are
> looking for
> a
> > wood stove which draws all the air it needs from outside,
> exactly because
> of
> > the reasons you mention above. You suggest that there are stoves
> available,
> > but do you know of any brand names or something, because we haven't been
> > able to find one yet.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Laurence and Monique Steijger
> > LSTEIJ@globalnet.co.uk or monique.steijger@cmgplc.com
> >
> >
> >
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Mon Dec 6 08:33:14 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Charcoal as an Insulator?
Message-ID: <0.ca935a20.257d1620@cs.com>

Dear Dan et al:

Sorry, didn't mean to be crytic...

The 3,000 C furnace that I remember from my 1950s Linde education (probably
going back to the Manhatten project) was a transite (asbestos board) box
approximately 50X40 X100 cm with a lid that could be removed for filling.
There was a 7 cm diameter hole in each end and 6 cm carbon tube with about a
0.5 cm wall was located on the axis. The box was then filled with
"thermatomic carbon" probably the same as lamp black as insulation.

In operation a VERY heavy transformer supplied 1000 amps at ? volts for
power. Voila 3,000C. Simple, but elegant. I'm sorry I've never had need to
generate those temperatures in graphite, buat I have made inert gas furnaces
going to 2700 C using a tungsten heating element with tantalum heat shields.

yours truly, TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 11/26/99 11:53:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dgill@ccsinc.com writes:

<< Tom,

What does the graphite rod and "lots of current" do?

Dan

Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:
>
> Dear Stovers:
>
> I have been pushing insulation for cookstoves for 3 years here with little
> sign of interest from the group. So, GOOD QUESTION...
>
> I don't know about charcoal, but you can make a very nice 3,000 C furnace
> with a graphite tube, lots of current, and THERMATOMIC CARBON. Thermatomic
> carbon looks like lampblack - very fine and dusty - and may actually be
> lampblack. Nasty to handle, but great insulation. I didn't find anything
on
> the Web about it under that name.
>
> The principle of operation of TH CA is that each granule is heated by
> radiation, and returns hald that radiation back similar to the action of
heat
> shields. Whether charcoal would do that or not, I don't know.
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
> >>
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
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Stoves Webpage
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Mon Dec 6 11:37:35 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Forwarding: New web site on Indoor Air Quality in Developing Countries
Message-ID: <v01540b00b471983fa3a7@[204.131.233.26]>

Stovers: Sumeet Saksena, a list member, is both notifying us of this new
web site and looking for ways to help support it.

It was my pleasure to have lunch with Sumeet this past summer while
he was temporarily working with Kirk Smith in Berkeley. I was very
impressed by his knowledge on this topic - any effort to help should be
well worth our time.

Ron

>Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 16:47:43 +0530
>From: "Sumeet Saksena" <sumeet@teri.res.in>
>To: <larcon@sni.net>
>Subject: New web site on Indoor Air Quality in Developing Countries
>
>http://www.teriin.org/indoor/indoor.htm
>
>What this announcement contains:
>
>a) description of the purpose and scope of contents
>
>b) request for your help (or ideas/suggestions) regarding financial and
>other forms of support for the maintenance of this site.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>------------------------------------------
>a) Description of the purpose and scope of contents
>
>TERI invites you to visit this new web site that is devoted to providing
>information regarding Indoor Air Quality problems in developing countries.
>The site is a very preliminary draft version and we would be constantly
>building upon it and improving it.
>
>The aim is to:
> i) provide information to lay persons about these problems
> ii) provide information resources to researchers and practitioners
>
>The main focus would be the problem of residential biomass combustion - a
>problem unique to developing countries.
>
>The material on indoor air problems in commercial buildings and in
>vehicles would be limited to description of case studies conducted in
>developing countries and providing selective links on these two subjects.
>
>We would be grateful for your suggestions, comments, materials, and
>information about relevant links.
>
>b) Request for support
>
>We have fairly ambitious plans about this site and this would require
>considerable person-hours of inputs from research and IT professionals. We
>would be grateful if your organization could contribute to this effort.
>Any support would certainly be acknowledged. Alternatively, any
>suggestions on where one could seek such support would be welcome.
>
>
>Sumeet Saksena

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Tue Dec 7 12:19:37 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Forwarding new member (partial) introduction
Message-ID: <v01540b01b472f262687b@[204.131.233.11]>

Stovers:
Melessaw doesn't know I am sending this in, but I don't think he
will mind. When we first met in 1992 or 1993, the present principals in
the private firm Megen Power were all Ethiopian Government employees. They
(3-5?) had a good, sophisticated laboratory and did some excellent work on
various forms of stoves suitable for Ethiopian type cooking. Because of
Government funds shortages and a new Government approach to privatization
(after the revolution which ended in 1991), these talented individuals spun
off Megen Power and are now working to bring their knowledge to bear
throughout especially Africa.

Melessaw - Welcome to our group. I hope you will expand on my brief
introduction by mentioning your background and that of all in your group,
the nature of Megen's present emphases, and any particular problems you are
now working on.

Since I have just signed you up, you should soon get all the
web-site information. But let me know if need more.

Ron

>Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 17:41:15 +0300
>To: larcon@csn.org
>From: "Melessaw Shanko" <mgp@telecom.net.et>
>Subject: Stoves Web network Membership
>
>Dear Dr. Larson,
>
>I hope you do remember me. We saw each other briefly when you were in
>Ethiopia about four years ago. It's been long time. As you may remember,
>we are a private consulting company working in the fields of renewable
>energy, effciciency improvement and the environment. We have done alot of
>work in the area of household energy efficiency improvement (improved
>stoves). We would like to be members of your network (CREST????).
>Therefore, could you please advise us on your web site and any other
>relevant information. Thank you.
>
>Melessew Shanko
>Melessew Shanko
>MEGEN Power Ltd.
>P.O. Box 20553 Code 1000
>Addis Ababa, Ethiopia
>Telephone/Fax: 251 - 1 - 613395
>e-Mail: MGP@telecom.net.et
>Mobile: 251 - 09 - 203097
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Wed Dec 8 09:58:11 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Forwarding Non-member submission on large-scale charcoal production
Message-ID: <v01540b00b473a33ebdcc@[204.131.233.5]>

Stovers - The following has just arrived today.

John - Thank you for submitting this information. As you are able, I hope
you will share more technical detail and photographs through our web sie
mainained by Alex English. I will be pleased to sign you up as a list
member as soon as your internet connection problems are solved.

Ron

>To: stoves@crest.org
>From: Carrie & Dan Guenette <renada@island.net>
>Subject: from John Flottvik
>
>From: John Flottvik
> JF Ventures Ltd.
>
>Subject: New totally continuous charkol production
>
>Dear Ron,
>
>- I run across your page now and again.
>
>- We have designed and sought paten protection on a totally continuos charkol
>production reactor
>
>- Our reactors will convert 120 tons of wet Fibre every 24 hrs, into 20 tons of
>charkol.
>
>- The Reactor is 12 ft square and 35 ft high, and is designed to replace
>beehive burners currently used in British Columbia.
>
>- All the byproducts from the pyrolysis process are routed in a series of pipes
>and collected in containers for sale.
>
>- the non condensible gasses will be burned in the reactor for auxiliary fuel.
>
>- Because of environmental concerns, as should be, we stress our charkol
>production method will be the absolute friendliest to our environment.
>
>- Several heat exchangers inside the unit will provide heat to kilns, offices
>or ?
>
>- Because we have complete control Fibrescise (Sawdust) Rector heat
>(Thermocouples) and the speed of the retort feed, we can dictate the charkol
>quality, be it high volatile or near graphite.
>
>- Our reactors would be perfect in Brazil where they apparently lose as much as
>30% of their finished product.
>
>- We have computed problems but hope to be fixed soon.
>
>- This message is through a 3rd party but you can reply her also.
>
>More info from John Flottvik (JF Ventures Ltd.)
>Box 129 Coal Harbour, BC Canada
>Phone: (250) 949-9795
>Fax: (250) 949-9722
>
>Email will be jovick@capescott.net (when fixed)
>
>Sincerely,
>John Flottvik

From tmiles at teleport.com Thu Dec 9 00:52:15 1999
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Bioenergy List Activity and Annual Appeal
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991208211730.01ee4760@mail.teleport.com>

It may interest list members to know how many people we have on these
ongoing, on-line, bioenergy "conferences."

After five years we have five lists: Bioenergy, Gasification, Stoves,
Digestion, Bioconversion. Each list has a digest and a web archive.

List membership for the Bioenergy list varies between 400-500 members with
about 10% entering or leaving each year. Stoves, Gasification and Digestion
vary between 200-300 members with a similar turnover. Bioconversion has
about 120 members. The number of messages varies with topics and events.
Topics are "free choice." Since the intent is the exchange of scientific
and practical or commercial experience, advertising is discouraged. List
moderators screen only unsolicited commercial email (SPAM). Lists are
proactive; you usually have to ask a question to get the answers you're
looking for.

The lists are hosted by the Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable
Technology (www.crest.org). CREST manages the list software on its
computers and archives messages from the lists on the Web. We now have up
to five years of messages on the archives. People who search the web for
bioenergy topics often find our list messages.

The bioenergy list archives received more than 76,000 web requests (hits)
during November: Bioenergy 31,000; Stoves 16,000; Gasification 15,000;
Digestion 13,000; Bioconversion 2,000. They average more than 2500 requests
per day.

The lists are funded through the generous contributions of time and money
by our list moderators (Alex English, Tom Jeffries, Ron Larson, Phil Lusk,
Tom Miles, Tom Reed), list sponsors (Bioenergy - David Gubanc, PE and DK
Teknik, Martin Fock; Gasification - Biomass Energy Foundation, Tom Reed;
Stoves- FAO Auke Koopmans and Kirk Smith, UC Berkley; Digestion - Hitoshi
Marruyama, IEA Phil Lusk; Bioconversions - USDA Forest Service, Tom
Jeffries) and CREST. List sponsorship is $300/year. List sponsors and
volunteer moderators are always needed and always welcome. (To contribute
see http://crest.org/services/biolist-spons.shtml )

I'd like to thank all of the list members, volunteers and supporters who
make these bioenergy discussions possible. We have created the highest
quality, lowest cost bioenergy conference on record.

Regards,

Tom Miles
Bioenergy Lists Administrator

-------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
T.R. Miles, Technical Consultants, Inc.
1470 SW Woodward Way
Portland, Oregon, USA Tel:(503) 646-1198/292-0107
http://www.teleport.com/~tmiles/ Fax:(503) 605-0208/292-2919
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
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Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Sat Dec 11 13:30:59 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Forwarding Arcate request on torrefication
Message-ID: <v01540b02b47834fba354@[204.131.233.11]>

Stovers - I send this on not only to see if there is anyone interested as
a co-sponsoring company located in New York state - but also because it
may have wider applicability around the world.

Ron

>Hello:
>
>We have a proposal ready to submit for commercialization of Torrefied Wood
>as a bioresource for energy recovery and waste minimization. All we need is
>the name of and a letter of commitment from a New York State Company or
>Organization to partner with us on the project.
>
>The PON No. 489-99 is due December 16, 1999. See
>http://www.nyserda.org/489pon.html
>
>Anyone interested please let me know ASAP.
>
>thank you, Jim Arcate
>
>Transnational Technology
>3447 Pipa Place
>Honolulu, HI 96822-1221
>(808) 988-7502 or 9713
>www.techtp.com
>

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sat Dec 11 17:53:09 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Charcoal, Sea Sweep quenching
Message-ID: <0.8f9208ed.25843104@cs.com>

Dear Gasification 300:

Along with Peter's suggestions:

We manufacture a product Sea Sweep by pyrolysing wood above the Torrefied
temperature and below the charcoal buffered endpoint of about 420C. We
quench it to keep it from overheating and put it directly in bags.

If we add too much water, the inside of the sealed bags will bet steamy. If
not enough, the bags melt. We bring final temperature to about 70C.

Probably the same would apply to bagging charcoal. Good luck..

TOM REED BEF, SEA SWEEP, CPC,....

In a message dated 12/10/99 2:37:36 PM Mountain Standard Time,
dschmidt@eerc.und.nodak.edu writes:

<<
Darren;

Extremely interesting! My suggestion would be to use low pressure, super
saturated, steam to cool it down to at least 250F. Or simply inject the
proper amount of fine spray water directly.

Think of how they used to boil water in a leather pouch by throwing hot
stones into it.

What you are lacking is an intimate contact with the carbon -- as film
coefficient is directly related to surface area. Charcoal is quite porous
-- so you have to "trick" your way around that.

Quenching in just the right amount of water should also work -- leaving a
dry and cooler product. In fact -- with the proper dry air flow over your
quenching pit you should achieve final temperatures around the ambient dew
point.

Lots of ways to skin that cat! You could even recover that "steam" for
extra heating purposes other places.

Once you make intimate contact with carbon and cooling fluid -- the heat
conductivity of the carbon is high enough.

Peter / Belize
>>
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sat Dec 11 17:53:13 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: GAS-L: RE: Charcoal as an Insulator?
Message-ID: <0.f16fe159.25843107@cs.com>

G2000:

Some diamonds (Type 2?) can have a thermal conductivity 20 times that of
copper at low temperatures! And I boosted "Thermatomic Carbon" (= carbon
black?) as being the best insulation for a 3000C graphite tube furnace. So,
carbon in its many forms covers the whole range from highest to lowest
thermal conduction.

Nice to hear a scientific discussion here at old Gasification 2000. Tom
Miles says we have 200-300 members, but most of them are tongue tied. I hope
that each of you will identify yourselves to the others once before the New
Year-Century-Millenium - or consider unsubscribing.

TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 12/10/99 8:45:48 AM Mountain Standard Time,
dschmidt@eerc.und.nodak.edu writes:

<<
At 08:08 AM 12/10/99 +1000, you wrote:
>
>My understanding is that the reason people can walk on "hot" coals is that
>the charcoal insulates them from the smouldering remains below. Surely the
>insulating value of carbon is strongly dependant on the form the carbon is
>in. So, perhaps diamonds are good conductors.
> >>
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http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sat Dec 11 17:53:55 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
Message-ID: <0.44209f7d.25843130@cs.com>

Dear Lists and Tom Miles:

Half my mail seems to be on charcoal these days.

Formerly the charcoal discussions were mostly on STOVES. Now they have
drifted over to GASIFICATION.

I am as interested in the thousands of forms of charcoal as anyone and glad
to read the discussions. However, I wonder if this continual interest
doesn't indicate that we should have a separate CREST site for charcoal.
After all, it was humanity's first synthetic fuel; without it we would never
have developed metals, hence computers, hence Email, hence this list!

There seems to be tremendous resurgence of interest in CHARCOAL, from the
small production to commercial activated, but the science is typically thin.
(Danny day [www.scientificcarbons.com]: Say something about your site and
production).

Hate to proliferate sites, but CHARCOAL (or CARBON) is definitely a
candidate.

Incidentally, what has happened to WOOD COOKING STOVES for developing
countries, the original subject of STOVES? Have we lost interest?
Frustration? Our Tubo stove is going in to beta testing soon.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
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http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From tmiles at teleport.com Sat Dec 11 21:26:30 1999
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991211183520.00c41be0@mail.teleport.com>

Dear List Members,

I've created a couple of web pages with links that have been posted to the
bioenergy lists as another way of finding useful sources of information
from list members.

Look at:

http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

Regards,

Tom Miles
Bioenergy Lists Administrator
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
Technical Consultants, Inc. Tel (503) 292-0107/646-1198
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax (503) 605-0208
Portland, Oregon, USA 97225

Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From dstill at epud.org Mon Dec 13 02:32:43 1999
From: dstill at epud.org (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Fw: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
Message-ID: <001e01bf02df$5c2bcc40$3f2b74d8@default>

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Still <dstill@epud.org>
To: Reedtb2@cs.com <Reedtb2@cs.com>
Date: Sunday, September 19, 1999 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?

>Dear Tom,
>
>I think that I also asked the same question a while back. To try to perk up
>interest here are my most flamboyant opinions! I think that the stove
>community does not yet understand how stoves work. First job is to make an
>accurate model of how a cooking stove works. This takes some engineering,
>studying, experimentation!
>
>We are working on the new designs of multi pot stoves for Rogerio Miranda
>and Prolena in Nicaragua. A team from Aprovecho will spend two months
>working there this winter to finalize plans for a more efficient stove to
>promote nationally.
>
>By partially submerging the three pots below the level of a cement or metal
>griddle surface a lot of pot surface area is exposed to hot flue gases.
>Efficiencies are around 40%. Efficiences drop as less pot surface area is
>exposed.
>
>The stove body, griddle, etc. is isolated from the heat by insulation. Only
>the pot is exposed to heat. In this case we use wood ash as insulation. A
>chimney carries the reduced amount of smoke out of the house.
>
>I believe that heat transfer to the pot(s) is the most powerful determining
>variable in a cooking stove. Excess air does not, in my opinion, have a
huge
>effect on efficiency. Blocking excess air helps a bit but it is not a
>determining variable like heat transfer to the pot.
>
>Also, I believe that radiation only plays a small role in heating the
>cooking pot. Convection is largely responsible for cooking. Simple tests
>show that a pot has to be within a couple of inches of the glowing coals
for
>radiation to have any real effect and in most stoves the pot is further
>away. So if cooking is mostly convective we run up against the rate at
which
>heat can travel through a square foot of pot.
>
>Although it seems strange increasing the speed of hot flue gases as they
>bang up against the pot seems to increase heat transfer. Breaking through a
>air boundry layer?
>
> Fans are great but, of course, impractical for real world use.
>
>Top burn, downdraft, sidefeed are all options for the introduction of fuel.
>Top burn is the potentially cleanest but impractical because batch loading
>is not normally accepted and the fuel needs to be dry for top burning to
>work. Two strikes and you're out.
>
>Downdraft/downfeed also smokes less but people tend to dislike it and go
>back to sidefeed as soon as the experts have jumped back into the truck.
>
>Sidefeed is how everyone everywhere introduces wood into a fire. This is
>reality, for better or worse. Sidefeed plus a door is where we end up in
the
>real, poor world.
>
>We should have descriptions of the Rocket and Dona Justa stoves up soon on
>the Aprovecho home page.
>
>Actually, I believe that the stove community is within ten years of solving
>the cooking stove problem. First we need to accurately model what is
>happening in the wood burning stove. So far it's still poking at the
>elephant with an oar.
>
>Best,
>
>Dean Still
>Aprovecho
>
>

From larcon at sni.net Mon Dec 13 08:29:37 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Forwarding Arcate request on torrefication
Message-ID: <v01540b00b47aa799539d@[204.131.233.6]>

Miguel (and others) - "stoves" members can always send requests such as
this in directly to the list and/or to the original author). They need not
be sent first to me. Ron

>Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:23:50 +0100
>From: "Trossero, Miguel (FOPW)" <Miguel.Trossero@fao.org>
>Subject: RE: Forwarding Arcate request on torrefication
>To: "'larcon@sni.net'" <larcon@sni.net>
>MIME-version: 1.0
>
>Can we have more details about the know how offered? Details of plant
>capacity? Technical specifications of raw materials used and end products?
>Thank you. Miguel A. Trossero
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: larcon@sni.net [SMTP:larcon@sni.net]
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 7:44 PM
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Cc: Jim Arcate; Thomas Stubbing
> Subject: Forwarding Arcate request on torrefication
>
> Stovers - I send this on not only to see if there is anyone
>interested as
> a co-sponsoring company located in New York state - but also
>because it
> may have wider applicability around the world.
>
> Ron
>
>
> >Hello:
> >
> >We have a proposal ready to submit for commercialization of
>Torrefied Wood
> >as a bioresource for energy recovery and waste minimization. All
>we need is
> >the name of and a letter of commitment from a New York State
>Company or
> >Organization to partner with us on the project.
> >
> >The PON No. 489-99 is due December 16, 1999. See
> >http://www.nyserda.org/489pon.html
> >
> >Anyone interested please let me know ASAP.
> >
> >thank you, Jim Arcate
> >
> >Transnational Technology
> >3447 Pipa Place
> >Honolulu, HI 96822-1221
> >(808) 988-7502 or 9713
> >www.techtp.com
> >
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Mon Dec 13 08:37:56 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Fw: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
Message-ID: <v01540b01b47aa8da9f3b@[204.131.233.6]>

Dean:
I like very much your emphasis on the need for improved stove
modeling. What have you found in the literature that you found to be the
best start towards improved modeling?
Can you describe the type of model that you are working on?

Other stovers - anyone with good answers?

Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From dstill at epud.org Mon Dec 13 22:18:33 1999
From: dstill at epud.org (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Here's a stove.
Message-ID: <001401bf02fe$b6747f20$232b74d8@default>

Dear Ron,

Here's a description of the highest efficiency Dona Justa type stove:

Sidefeed insulated small fuel magazine which enters a 8" high 4" in dia.
insulated low mass chimney. Fuel sits on a horizontal support, primary air
is controlled by a hanging curtain of chain, or flap, through which fuel is
introduced. Lots of tall flames, very active fire with flame filling most of
8" insulated chimney. Air passes under stick support to sweep up through
burning grate of fuel. Secondary air is preheated to join fire in top of
chimney.

First of three pots located on top of chimney. Hot flue gases pass through a
very tight 1/4" passageway around sides, bottom of pots. Same cross
sectional area is maintained through out fire flow path. Pots can be lifted
up, out of stove, replaced if needed by a flat cover so smoke stays in
stove. Tight fit in either refractory cement, clay or steel plancha.

Body of stove is thermally isolated from heat by wood ash insulation. Exit
temperatures are around 250 F, very little smoke. About 40% efficiency.

We're trying to tweak it up a few more points. Could add pot number four.
Maybe make fuel magazine smaller. We're trying to keep Delta T ( temp. of
heat contacting pot) as high but have a smaller fire that lasts longer.

Pots can only take in a fixed amount of heat per hour.

There are pictures on the Aprovecho home page. I think that Alex should have
some soon as well.

Best,

Dean

From rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni Tue Dec 14 01:03:06 1999
From: rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni (Rogerio Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Discussions, where's the STOVES?
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991213230038.00ab0d90@205.218.248.130>

Just a extra drop of words, to spice up this discussion.

Being part of this list in the past 4-5 years, I have learned that third
world stoves technology can´t be only fuel efficiency, but also must be
clean and practical. Furthemore, make your own stoves approach does not
guarantee perfomance, so at least semi-manufactured key parts does
guarantee perfomance.

Our experience here in Latin America indicates that people are mainly
fascinated by new smoke free stoves, and that is our major goal in
PROLEÑA, to show that using wood doesn´t have necessary to be in a smoke
place or with primitive technologies. Eliminating the smoky environment, we
eliminate the poverty status attached with that. I have being lately
approached by mid class people asking for the new smoke free stoves,
although as secondary stove. Smoke free houses, makes people feel proud of
their stoves, of their houses and of themselves.

I am feeling very excited about this new Doña Justa stove, because besides
eliminating basicaly all smoke from the house, it also cut fuelwood
consumption by 50% (if not more). The combination of the APROVECHO´s Rocket
stove, with PROLEÑA´s Plancha stove, produced the D. Justa stove. I will
call it simple, but revolutionary technology. It is too early to call
victory, because it is just a post-Mitch technology, developed in 1999, but
early indications of people acceptance in Honduras, give me a strongh
feeling that finally, at the last minute, we have produced a 3world
woodstove appliance suitable for the new mileniun.

rogerio miranda

>From: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.org>
>To: <stoves@crest.org>
>Subject: Fw: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
>Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 13:41:31 -0700
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
>Sender: owner-stoves@crest.org
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dean Still <dstill@epud.org>
>To: Reedtb2@cs.com <Reedtb2@cs.com>
>Date: Sunday, September 19, 1999 1:38 PM
>Subject: Re: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
>
>
>>Dear Tom,
>>
>>I think that I also asked the same question a while back. To try to perk up
>>interest here are my most flamboyant opinions! I think that the stove
>>community does not yet understand how stoves work. First job is to make an
>>accurate model of how a cooking stove works. This takes some engineering,
>>studying, experimentation!
>>
>>We are working on the new designs of multi pot stoves for Rogerio Miranda
>>and Prolena in Nicaragua. A team from Aprovecho will spend two months
>>working there this winter to finalize plans for a more efficient stove to
>>promote nationally.
>>
>>By partially submerging the three pots below the level of a cement or metal
>>griddle surface a lot of pot surface area is exposed to hot flue gases.
>>Efficiencies are around 40%. Efficiences drop as less pot surface area is
>>exposed.
>>
>>The stove body, griddle, etc. is isolated from the heat by insulation. Only
>>the pot is exposed to heat. In this case we use wood ash as insulation. A
>>chimney carries the reduced amount of smoke out of the house.
>>
>>I believe that heat transfer to the pot(s) is the most powerful determining
>>variable in a cooking stove. Excess air does not, in my opinion, have a
>huge
>>effect on efficiency. Blocking excess air helps a bit but it is not a
>>determining variable like heat transfer to the pot.
>>
>>Also, I believe that radiation only plays a small role in heating the
>>cooking pot. Convection is largely responsible for cooking. Simple tests
>>show that a pot has to be within a couple of inches of the glowing coals
>for
>>radiation to have any real effect and in most stoves the pot is further
>>away. So if cooking is mostly convective we run up against the rate at
>which
>>heat can travel through a square foot of pot.
>>
>>Although it seems strange increasing the speed of hot flue gases as they
>>bang up against the pot seems to increase heat transfer. Breaking through a
>>air boundry layer?
>>
>> Fans are great but, of course, impractical for real world use.
>>
>>Top burn, downdraft, sidefeed are all options for the introduction of fuel.
>>Top burn is the potentially cleanest but impractical because batch loading
>>is not normally accepted and the fuel needs to be dry for top burning to
>>work. Two strikes and you're out.
>>
>>Downdraft/downfeed also smokes less but people tend to dislike it and go
>>back to sidefeed as soon as the experts have jumped back into the truck.
>>
>>Sidefeed is how everyone everywhere introduces wood into a fire. This is
>>reality, for better or worse. Sidefeed plus a door is where we end up in
>the
>>real, poor world.
>>
>>We should have descriptions of the Rocket and Dona Justa stoves up soon on
>>the Aprovecho home page.
>>
>>Actually, I believe that the stove community is within ten years of solving
>>the cooking stove problem. First we need to accurately model what is
>>happening in the wood burning stove. So far it's still poking at the
>>elephant with an oar.
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Dean Still
>>Aprovecho
>>
>>
>
>Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>Stoves Webpage
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda
Asesor Tecnico Principal
PROLEÑA/Nicaragua
Apartado Postal C-321
Managua, Nicaragua
TELEFAX (505) 276 2015, 270 5448
EMAIL: rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From dstill at epud.org Tue Dec 14 11:42:56 1999
From: dstill at epud.org (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: modelling of wood fired cooking stoves
Message-ID: <001201bf030f$02cc4f00$0e2b74d8@default>

Dear Ron,

Aprovecho is working with Dr. Mark Bryden at Iowa State University who is
using the same computers and modelling techniques that they use to analyze
coal burning plants to investigate how wood burning cooking stoves function.
He has set up a stove lab and has students looking at different stoves from
around the world.

Dr. Bryden is an expert at modelling and we hope that eventually he and his
students will successfully predict performance of various stoves.

We're planning that if time permits he may be able to visit our team in
Nicaragua when they begin work with Prolena and Rogerio Miranda in February.

His email is: kmbryden@iastate.edu

Best,

Dean

From larcon at sni.net Tue Dec 14 15:14:10 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Forwarding request on charcoal briquetting
Message-ID: <v01540b06b47c3c8069cb@[204.131.233.6]>

Stovers: This just came in in response to my Dec. 5 request for more
detail on what Gerry was looking for in briquetting hardware.

Gerry:
We are not a list really devoted to this issue. However, there are
"stoves" members interested in this topic - and I don't know of a better
place to send you. Please keep us informed as you learn more. Good luck.
Ron

>Dear Mr.. Larson,
>
>My customer is looking for 2 machines in order to compare. One would be for
>a 5 tons per day production, and the other one for a 10 tons per day
>production.
>Are these machines in the scale that you would be able to supply. Please let
>me know ASAP.
>Thanks, and best regards,
>
>Gerry Custo

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Tue Dec 14 15:14:34 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Here's a stove.
Message-ID: <v01540b0ab47c482d27fb@[204.131.233.6]>

Dean
The following is very helpful - but my last question was trying to
deal more with your thinking on the modeling of this stove - or others like
it.

I am thinking of a model (maybe on a computer, but maybe a set of
graphs or equations) that could predict such output items as the efficiency
or pollutants as a function of inputs such as
1. the fuel loading (input weight per unit time, fuel dampness, etc) ,
2. Stove materials (R-values)
3. Critical dimensions (thickness of insulation, chimney height, etc)
4. Maybe eventually the costs (and lifetimes where appropriate) of
the above.

The charcoal-making stove is especially amenable to thermal heat
transfer (maybe time-domain) modeling for several reasons - the fuel
loading is only done initially, there is little change in operation with
time (the downward pyrolysis front movement is very slow), there is
cylindrical symmetry (and not much change radially), and one can (and must)
control the primary air.

Has your work with the Dona Justa included any modeling of this
type - where you will be able to predict performance of a stove
modification in advance of construction and operation?

Concerning this design below - a few questions. The mental image I
have is that your three (later four) pots are run in series. I can't find
it now, but remember an analysis from the Eindhoven University group
showing that running in parallel would always be more efficient than in
series. Also it would "always" be impossible to control the temperatures
adequately with a series approach to the cookpots. In your roughly 1/4
inch spacings, do you have any means of varying this spacing - so as to
control pot temperature and the amount of energy getting to each pot?

Any other stovers doing modeling of any type?

Ron

>Dear Ron,
>
>Here's a description of the highest efficiency Dona Justa type stove:
>
>Sidefeed insulated small fuel magazine which enters a 8" high 4" in dia.
>insulated low mass chimney. Fuel sits on a horizontal support, primary air
>is controlled by a hanging curtain of chain, or flap, through which fuel is
>introduced. Lots of tall flames, very active fire with flame filling most of
>8" insulated chimney. Air passes under stick support to sweep up through
>burning grate of fuel. Secondary air is preheated to join fire in top of
>chimney.
>
>First of three pots located on top of chimney. Hot flue gases pass through a
>very tight 1/4" passageway around sides, bottom of pots. Same cross
>sectional area is maintained through out fire flow path. Pots can be lifted
>up, out of stove, replaced if needed by a flat cover so smoke stays in
>stove. Tight fit in either refractory cement, clay or steel plancha.
>
>Body of stove is thermally isolated from heat by wood ash insulation. Exit
>temperatures are around 250 F, very little smoke. About 40% efficiency.
>
>We're trying to tweak it up a few more points. Could add pot number four.
>Maybe make fuel magazine smaller. We're trying to keep Delta T ( temp. of
>heat contacting pot) as high but have a smaller fire that lasts longer.
>
>Pots can only take in a fixed amount of heat per hour.
>
>There are pictures on the Aprovecho home page. I think that Alex should have
>some soon as well.
>
>Best,
>
>Dean
>
>
>Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>Stoves Webpage
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Wed Dec 15 08:07:53 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: modelling of wood fired cooking stoves
Message-ID: <v01540b00b47c9b7f8c4e@[204.131.233.12]>

Dean:
Thanks for the clarification on your modeling approach. As Mark is
a valued member of the "stoves" list, I know he and his students will keep
us informed as appropriate. But if Mark can indicate anything at this time
as to how far along he is in this process - or where there may be
theoretical modeling difficulties - the time frame will be helpful for our
general stove improvement efforts and/or perhaps someone can offer some
ideas.

Some of my background has been in time domain finite difference
(TDFD) modeling (but not in this technical area) - and I'm hoping to get
someone trying that approach. My experience is that the general area of
combustion/pyrolysis is a very difficult modeling problem. But if someone
knows of past modeling efforts that have been successful, this is a good
time to let others know.

Ron

>Dear Ron,
>
>Aprovecho is working with Dr. Mark Bryden at Iowa State University who is
>using the same computers and modelling techniques that they use to analyze
>coal burning plants to investigate how wood burning cooking stoves function.
>He has set up a stove lab and has students looking at different stoves from
>around the world.
>
>Dr. Bryden is an expert at modelling and we hope that eventually he and his
>students will successfully predict performance of various stoves.
>
>We're planning that if time permits he may be able to visit our team in
>Nicaragua when they begin work with Prolena and Rogerio Miranda in February.
>
>His email is: kmbryden@iastate.edu
>
>Best,
>
>Dean
>
>
>Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>Stoves Webpage
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Dec 15 11:36:16 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Heat Shield Insulation
Message-ID: <0.63b5a141.25891eb0@cs.com>

Dear Peter and all:

Since radiation goes up as T^4 and conduction/convection only as T, it is
important to understand the role of radiation in high temperature insulation.

The radiant heat flow is Q = A s e T^4

where A is the area, s is the Stefan Boltzmann Coefficient (5.67XT^4/10^12
w/cm2 K^4) and e is the emissivity, ~1 for carbon, ~.05 for silver or gold
and T is the absolute temperature in Kelvins.)

If a hot body at Tb is surrounded by a radiation shield at Ts, Ts will reach
a temperature such that up to half the radiation goes out from the shield and
half is returned to the body at Tb. Then a series of radiation shields will
reduce heat loss by (2e)^n.

A powdered insulation acts like a series of heat shields with very large n,
so that particle size is very important. The thermal conductivity of
thermatomic carbon or other powdered insulation depends primarily on particle
size and not on the thermal conductivity of each particle. (A bit like
"equivalent plates" in packed distillation columns.)

I have used a spiral of tantalum surrounding a tungsten heating element to
grow crystals at 2700C. I also have found that an aluminum foil spiral does
a good job of insulating our turbo stove. Live and learn. I'm 179 years old
and still learning. (Just kidding).

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 12/12/99 9:22:35 AM Mountain Standard Time, snkm@btl.net
writes:

<<
Carbon -- in the form of hard graphite -- is a conductor for this
application.

As diamond is expensive -- and metals melt --

Just some "thoughts".

Peter Singfield / Belize
>>
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From fankenya at africaonline.co.ke Wed Dec 15 12:53:24 1999
From: fankenya at africaonline.co.ke (Forest Action Network)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Forwarding Arcate request on torrefication
Message-ID: <199912151750.MAA05198@solstice.crest.org>

Please note that with effect from January 2000 our email address will be
fan@fanworld.org

REgards
Eric Bosire

----------
> From: Ronal W. Larson <larcon@sni.net>
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: RE: Forwarding Arcate request on torrefication
> Date: Monday, December 13, 1999 4:42 PM
>
> Miguel (and others) - "stoves" members can always send requests such as
> this in directly to the list and/or to the original author). They need
not
> be sent first to me. Ron
>
>
> >Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:23:50 +0100
> >From: "Trossero, Miguel (FOPW)" <Miguel.Trossero@fao.org>
> >Subject: RE: Forwarding Arcate request on torrefication
> >To: "'larcon@sni.net'" <larcon@sni.net>
> >MIME-version: 1.0
> >
> >Can we have more details about the know how offered? Details of plant
> >capacity? Technical specifications of raw materials used and end
products?
> >Thank you. Miguel A. Trossero
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: larcon@sni.net [SMTP:larcon@sni.net]
> > Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 7:44 PM
> > To: stoves@crest.org
> > Cc: Jim Arcate; Thomas Stubbing
> > Subject: Forwarding Arcate request on torrefication
> >
> > Stovers - I send this on not only to see if there is anyone
> >interested as
> > a co-sponsoring company located in New York state - but also
> >because it
> > may have wider applicability around the world.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> > >Hello:
> > >
> > >We have a proposal ready to submit for commercialization of
> >Torrefied Wood
> > >as a bioresource for energy recovery and waste minimization.
All
> >we need is
> > >the name of and a letter of commitment from a New York State
> >Company or
> > >Organization to partner with us on the project.
> > >
> > >The PON No. 489-99 is due December 16, 1999. See
> > >http://www.nyserda.org/489pon.html
> > >
> > >Anyone interested please let me know ASAP.
> > >
> > >thank you, Jim Arcate
> > >
> > >Transnational Technology
> > >3447 Pipa Place
> > >Honolulu, HI 96822-1221
> > >(808) 988-7502 or 9713
> > >www.techtp.com
> > >
> >
>
> Ronal W. Larson, PhD
> 21547 Mountsfield Dr.
> Golden, CO 80401, USA
> 303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
> larcon@sni.net
>
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Stoves Webpage
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From fankenya at africaonline.co.ke Wed Dec 15 12:53:25 1999
From: fankenya at africaonline.co.ke (Forest Action Network)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: wood stoves
Message-ID: <199912151753.MAA05213@solstice.crest.org>

Please note that with effect from January 2000 our email address will be
fan@fanworld.org

REgards
Eric Bosire

----------
> From: Peter Verhaart <verhaarp@cqu.edu.au>
> To: Monique Steijger-Storm <monique.steijger@cmgplc.com>
> Cc: Stoves <stoves@crest.org>
> Subject: Re: wood stoves
> Date: Monday, December 06, 1999 2:04 PM
>
> Dear Monique & Laurence
>
> The short answer to your question is NO. I do not know any brand
names
> or firms that make woodburning stoves.
> Where we live now we don't need heating, only very occasionally. During
my
> so-called active life I was involved in woodburning cookstoves for
> developing countries. We tried to find out what makes wood burn properly
and
> how to transfer the maximal amount of the heat to the cooking utensil.
> During the decade of the project's existence, we found a way to burn wood
> completely. I have built a wood burning barbecue on this principle, which
> stops producing visible or smellible smoke 12 minutes after starting.
>
> What you have to look for is a stove (I saw one in Tasmania built by a
> private person) which directs the incoming air straight to the combustion
> zone, after which the gases are led away from the fuel. Since you are
> building a non-standard house you might consider having the stove
modified.
> It would need a conduit supplying combustion air to your stove. This
might
> involve sealing the door (if that is where the air normally enters).
> You also migt look into "Top down burning". there is a U.S. web site
> explaining it. The idea is to prevent contact of hot gases with fresh
fuel.
> If you burn a stack of fuel from the top down, the hot gases tend to rise
> from the top of the fire, leaving the lower layers of fuel unaffected. In
> this way no extra wood is exposed to heat, reducing the amount of smoke.
>
> I hope this will be of some use, I have Cc'ed this to the Stoves Crest
Org.
> You might get some more directly usrful advice.
>
> Let me know how you get on?
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Verhaart
> 6 McDonald St, Gracemere Q 4702
> Tel/Fax: +61 7 4933 1761
> Mobile: 0412 457239
> E-mail: p.verhaart@cqu.edu.au
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Monique Steijger-Storm <monique.steijger@cmgplc.com>
> To: <verhaarp@janus.cqu.edu.au>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:39 PM
> Subject: wood stoves
>
>
> > Dear mr. Verhaart,
> > I saw your answer to a question on "smoke in the kitchen" on
> > http://solstice.crest.org . This is what you wrote:
> >
> > "Hardly daring to suggest it, but does your dragon draw its combustion
air
> > from the room to be heated? If so, the problem might be that the house
is
> so
> > well built that there are insufficient air leaks to supply the stove.
> There
> > are stoves that draw their combustion air from outside (from the air
> > space between inner and outer wall, for instance) and that kind would
be
> > better suited."
> >
> > We are building a highly insulated house in England and we are looking
for
> a
> > wood stove which draws all the air it needs from outside, exactly
because
> of
> > the reasons you mention above. You suggest that there are stoves
> available,
> > but do you know of any brand names or something, because we haven't
been
> > able to find one yet.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Laurence and Monique Steijger
> > LSTEIJ@globalnet.co.uk or monique.steijger@cmgplc.com
> >
> >
> >
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From fankenya at africaonline.co.ke Wed Dec 15 12:57:33 1999
From: fankenya at africaonline.co.ke (Forest Action Network)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Discussions, where's the STOVES?
Message-ID: <199912151757.MAA05532@solstice.crest.org>

Please note that with effect from January 2000 our email address will be
fan@fanworld.org

REgards
Eric Bosire

----------
> From: Rogerio Miranda <rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni>
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Discussions, where's the STOVES?
> Date: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 8:00 AM
>
> Just a extra drop of words, to spice up this discussion.
>
> Being part of this list in the past 4-5 years, I have learned that third
> world stoves technology can´t be only fuel efficiency, but also must be
> clean and practical. Furthemore, make your own stoves approach does not
> guarantee perfomance, so at least semi-manufactured key parts does
> guarantee perfomance.
>
> Our experience here in Latin America indicates that people are mainly
> fascinated by new smoke free stoves, and that is our major goal in
> PROLEÑA, to show that using wood doesn´t have necessary to be in a smoke
> place or with primitive technologies. Eliminating the smoky environment,
we
> eliminate the poverty status attached with that. I have being lately
> approached by mid class people asking for the new smoke free stoves,
> although as secondary stove. Smoke free houses, makes people feel proud
of
> their stoves, of their houses and of themselves.
>
> I am feeling very excited about this new Doña Justa stove, because
besides
> eliminating basicaly all smoke from the house, it also cut fuelwood
> consumption by 50% (if not more). The combination of the APROVECHO´s
Rocket
> stove, with PROLEÑA´s Plancha stove, produced the D. Justa stove. I will
> call it simple, but revolutionary technology. It is too early to call
> victory, because it is just a post-Mitch technology, developed in 1999,
but
> early indications of people acceptance in Honduras, give me a strongh
> feeling that finally, at the last minute, we have produced a 3world
> woodstove appliance suitable for the new mileniun.
>
> rogerio miranda
>
>
>
> >From: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.org>
> >To: <stoves@crest.org>
> >Subject: Fw: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
> >Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 13:41:31 -0700
> >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
> >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
> >Sender: owner-stoves@crest.org
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Dean Still <dstill@epud.org>
> >To: Reedtb2@cs.com <Reedtb2@cs.com>
> >Date: Sunday, September 19, 1999 1:38 PM
> >Subject: Re: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
> >
> >
> >>Dear Tom,
> >>
> >>I think that I also asked the same question a while back. To try to
perk up
> >>interest here are my most flamboyant opinions! I think that the stove
> >>community does not yet understand how stoves work. First job is to make
an
> >>accurate model of how a cooking stove works. This takes some
engineering,
> >>studying, experimentation!
> >>
> >>We are working on the new designs of multi pot stoves for Rogerio
Miranda
> >>and Prolena in Nicaragua. A team from Aprovecho will spend two months
> >>working there this winter to finalize plans for a more efficient stove
to
> >>promote nationally.
> >>
> >>By partially submerging the three pots below the level of a cement or
metal
> >>griddle surface a lot of pot surface area is exposed to hot flue gases.
> >>Efficiencies are around 40%. Efficiences drop as less pot surface area
is
> >>exposed.
> >>
> >>The stove body, griddle, etc. is isolated from the heat by insulation.
Only
> >>the pot is exposed to heat. In this case we use wood ash as insulation.
A
> >>chimney carries the reduced amount of smoke out of the house.
> >>
> >>I believe that heat transfer to the pot(s) is the most powerful
determining
> >>variable in a cooking stove. Excess air does not, in my opinion, have a
> >huge
> >>effect on efficiency. Blocking excess air helps a bit but it is not a
> >>determining variable like heat transfer to the pot.
> >>
> >>Also, I believe that radiation only plays a small role in heating the
> >>cooking pot. Convection is largely responsible for cooking. Simple
tests
> >>show that a pot has to be within a couple of inches of the glowing
coals
> >for
> >>radiation to have any real effect and in most stoves the pot is further
> >>away. So if cooking is mostly convective we run up against the rate at
> >which
> >>heat can travel through a square foot of pot.
> >>
> >>Although it seems strange increasing the speed of hot flue gases as
they
> >>bang up against the pot seems to increase heat transfer. Breaking
through a
> >>air boundry layer?
> >>
> >> Fans are great but, of course, impractical for real world use.
> >>
> >>Top burn, downdraft, sidefeed are all options for the introduction of
fuel.
> >>Top burn is the potentially cleanest but impractical because batch
loading
> >>is not normally accepted and the fuel needs to be dry for top burning
to
> >>work. Two strikes and you're out.
> >>
> >>Downdraft/downfeed also smokes less but people tend to dislike it and
go
> >>back to sidefeed as soon as the experts have jumped back into the
truck.
> >>
> >>Sidefeed is how everyone everywhere introduces wood into a fire. This
is
> >>reality, for better or worse. Sidefeed plus a door is where we end up
in
> >the
> >>real, poor world.
> >>
> >>We should have descriptions of the Rocket and Dona Justa stoves up soon
on
> >>the Aprovecho home page.
> >>
> >>Actually, I believe that the stove community is within ten years of
solving
> >>the cooking stove problem. First we need to accurately model what is
> >>happening in the wood burning stove. So far it's still poking at the
> >>elephant with an oar.
> >>
> >>Best,
> >>
> >>Dean Still
> >>Aprovecho
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> >Stoves Webpage
> >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda
> Asesor Tecnico Principal
> PROLEÑA/Nicaragua
> Apartado Postal C-321
> Managua, Nicaragua
> TELEFAX (505) 276 2015, 270 5448
> EMAIL: rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni
>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Stoves Webpage
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From fankenya at africaonline.co.ke Wed Dec 15 12:57:33 1999
From: fankenya at africaonline.co.ke (Forest Action Network)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
Message-ID: <199912151757.MAA05536@solstice.crest.org>

Please note that with effect from January 2000 our email address will be
fan@fanworld.org

REgards
Eric Bosire

----------
> From: Reedtb2@cs.com
> To: gasification@crest.org; stoves@crest.org; bioenergy@crest.org;
tmiles@teleport.com; danday@scientificcarbons.com
> Subject: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
> Date: Sunday, December 12, 1999 1:58 AM
>
> Dear Lists and Tom Miles:
>
> Half my mail seems to be on charcoal these days.
>
> Formerly the charcoal discussions were mostly on STOVES. Now they have
> drifted over to GASIFICATION.
>
> I am as interested in the thousands of forms of charcoal as anyone and
glad
> to read the discussions. However, I wonder if this continual interest
> doesn't indicate that we should have a separate CREST site for charcoal.

> After all, it was humanity's first synthetic fuel; without it we would
never
> have developed metals, hence computers, hence Email, hence this list!
>
> There seems to be tremendous resurgence of interest in CHARCOAL, from the

> small production to commercial activated, but the science is typically
thin.
> (Danny day [www.scientificcarbons.com]: Say something about your site
and
> production).
>
> Hate to proliferate sites, but CHARCOAL (or CARBON) is definitely a
> candidate.
>
> Incidentally, what has happened to WOOD COOKING STOVES for developing
> countries, the original subject of STOVES? Have we lost interest?
> Frustration? Our Tubo stove is going in to beta testing soon.
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Stoves Webpage
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From fankenya at africaonline.co.ke Wed Dec 15 12:58:12 1999
From: fankenya at africaonline.co.ke (Forest Action Network)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
Message-ID: <199912151758.MAA05625@solstice.crest.org>

Please note that with effect from January 2000 our email address will be
fan@fanworld.org

REgards
Eric Bosire

----------
> From: Tom Miles <tmiles@teleport.com>
> To: Bioenergy <bioenergy@crest.org>
> Cc: stoves@crest.org; digestion@crest.org; bioconversion@crest.org;
gasification@crest.org
> Subject: http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> Date: Sunday, December 12, 1999 5:38 AM
>
> Dear List Members,
>
> I've created a couple of web pages with links that have been posted to
the
> bioenergy lists as another way of finding useful sources of information
> from list members.
>
> Look at:
>
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Miles
> Bioenergy Lists Administrator
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
> Technical Consultants, Inc. Tel (503) 292-0107/646-1198
> 1470 SW Woodward Way Fax (503) 605-0208
> Portland, Oregon, USA 97225
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From fankenya at africaonline.co.ke Wed Dec 15 13:10:49 1999
From: fankenya at africaonline.co.ke (Forest Action Network)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Here's a stove.
Message-ID: <199912151810.NAA06206@solstice.crest.org>

Please note that with effect from January 2000 our email address will be
fan@fanworld.org

REgards
Eric Bosire

----------
> From: Dean Still <dstill@epud.org>
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: Here's a stove.
> Date: Monday, September 20, 1999 3:25 AM
>
> Dear Ron,
>
> Here's a description of the highest efficiency Dona Justa type stove:
>
> Sidefeed insulated small fuel magazine which enters a 8" high 4" in dia.
> insulated low mass chimney. Fuel sits on a horizontal support, primary
air
> is controlled by a hanging curtain of chain, or flap, through which fuel
is
> introduced. Lots of tall flames, very active fire with flame filling most
of
> 8" insulated chimney. Air passes under stick support to sweep up through
> burning grate of fuel. Secondary air is preheated to join fire in top of
> chimney.
>
> First of three pots located on top of chimney. Hot flue gases pass
through a
> very tight 1/4" passageway around sides, bottom of pots. Same cross
> sectional area is maintained through out fire flow path. Pots can be
lifted
> up, out of stove, replaced if needed by a flat cover so smoke stays in
> stove. Tight fit in either refractory cement, clay or steel plancha.
>
> Body of stove is thermally isolated from heat by wood ash insulation.
Exit
> temperatures are around 250 F, very little smoke. About 40% efficiency.
>
> We're trying to tweak it up a few more points. Could add pot number four.
> Maybe make fuel magazine smaller. We're trying to keep Delta T ( temp. of
> heat contacting pot) as high but have a smaller fire that lasts longer.
>
> Pots can only take in a fixed amount of heat per hour.
>
> There are pictures on the Aprovecho home page. I think that Alex should
have
> some soon as well.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Stoves Webpage
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From antal at wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu Wed Dec 15 13:52:16 1999
From: antal at wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu (Michael Antal)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: charcoal
In-Reply-To: <199912151757.MAA05536@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPX.4.03.9912150855560.28679-100000@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu>

Dear Tom and stovers: I would be willing to make modest monetary
contributions to a charcoal (renewable carbon) web site. Increasingly, I
think that charcoal (not hydrogen) is the fuel of the future. Happy
holidays! Michael Antal.

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Forest Action Network wrote:

> Please note that with effect from January 2000 our email address will be
> fan@fanworld.org
>
> REgards
> Eric Bosire
>
> ----------
> > From: Reedtb2@cs.com
> > To: gasification@crest.org; stoves@crest.org; bioenergy@crest.org;
> tmiles@teleport.com; danday@scientificcarbons.com
> > Subject: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
> > Date: Sunday, December 12, 1999 1:58 AM
> >
> > Dear Lists and Tom Miles:
> >
> > Half my mail seems to be on charcoal these days.
> >
> > Formerly the charcoal discussions were mostly on STOVES. Now they have
> > drifted over to GASIFICATION.
> >
> > I am as interested in the thousands of forms of charcoal as anyone and
> glad
> > to read the discussions. However, I wonder if this continual interest
> > doesn't indicate that we should have a separate CREST site for charcoal.
>
> > After all, it was humanity's first synthetic fuel; without it we would
> never
> > have developed metals, hence computers, hence Email, hence this list!
> >
> > There seems to be tremendous resurgence of interest in CHARCOAL, from the
>
> > small production to commercial activated, but the science is typically
> thin.
> > (Danny day [www.scientificcarbons.com]: Say something about your site
> and
> > production).
> >
> > Hate to proliferate sites, but CHARCOAL (or CARBON) is definitely a
> > candidate.
> >
> > Incidentally, what has happened to WOOD COOKING STOVES for developing
> > countries, the original subject of STOVES? Have we lost interest?
> > Frustration? Our Tubo stove is going in to beta testing soon.
> >
> > Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
> > Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> > Stoves Webpage
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>

From rboetcke at bitcorp.net Wed Dec 15 14:08:02 1999
From: rboetcke at bitcorp.net (Richard Boetcker)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: charcoal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.03.9912150855560.28679-100000@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu>
Message-ID: <3857E825.B21662F7@bitcorp.net>

To all:

Check out my web site at http://www.chrbo.com Let me know what you think.. Over
50,000 of the original design are in use here in Utah and surrounding states.
The original stove, called the "Volcano" was my first introduction into charcoal
burning combination cookers. And now, the Chrbo adds portability to the
equation. I also have a small Chrbo that fits into the large stove when
collapsed, and the both fit into the same carry bag. Both are made of 20 gauge
steel and will last many years.
Sincerely,
Richard C. Boetcker
Sandy, Utah 84094

Michael Antal wrote:

> Dear Tom and stovers: I would be willing to make modest monetary
> contributions to a charcoal (renewable carbon) web site. Increasingly, I
> think that charcoal (not hydrogen) is the fuel of the future. Happy
> holidays! Michael Antal.
>
> On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Forest Action Network wrote:
>
> > Please note that with effect from January 2000 our email address will be
> > fan@fanworld.org
> >
> > REgards
> > Eric Bosire
> >
> > ----------
> > > From: Reedtb2@cs.com
> > > To: gasification@crest.org; stoves@crest.org; bioenergy@crest.org;
> > tmiles@teleport.com; danday@scientificcarbons.com
> > > Subject: Charcoal Discussions, where's the STOVES?
> > > Date: Sunday, December 12, 1999 1:58 AM
> > >
> > > Dear Lists and Tom Miles:
> > >
> > > Half my mail seems to be on charcoal these days.
> > >
> > > Formerly the charcoal discussions were mostly on STOVES. Now they have
> > > drifted over to GASIFICATION.
> > >
> > > I am as interested in the thousands of forms of charcoal as anyone and
> > glad
> > > to read the discussions. However, I wonder if this continual interest
> > > doesn't indicate that we should have a separate CREST site for charcoal.
> >
> > > After all, it was humanity's first synthetic fuel; without it we would
> > never
> > > have developed metals, hence computers, hence Email, hence this list!
> > >
> > > There seems to be tremendous resurgence of interest in CHARCOAL, from the
> >
> > > small production to commercial activated, but the science is typically
> > thin.
> > > (Danny day [www.scientificcarbons.com]: Say something about your site
> > and
> > > production).
> > >
> > > Hate to proliferate sites, but CHARCOAL (or CARBON) is definitely a
> > > candidate.
> > >
> > > Incidentally, what has happened to WOOD COOKING STOVES for developing
> > > countries, the original subject of STOVES? Have we lost interest?
> > > Frustration? Our Tubo stove is going in to beta testing soon.
> > >
> > > Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
> > > Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> > > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> > > Stoves Webpage
> > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> > Stoves Webpage
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> > Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >
>
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From tmiles at teleport.com Wed Dec 15 15:20:21 1999
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: charcoal
In-Reply-To: <199912151757.MAA05536@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991215110701.03303540@mail.teleport.com>

Mike,

Is this what you're thinking of?
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml

If you, Scientific Carbons, Transnational Technologies, Dynamotive and
others will help sponsor the lists we'd be happy to build out a Renewable
Carbon site at CREST.

Sponsorship is $300/year, or $25/mo with a minimum of 4 months.

See http://crest.org/services/biolist-spons.shtml and send CREST a check.

Happy Holidays

Tom Miles

At 08:57 AM 12/15/99 -1000, Michael Antal wrote:
>Dear Tom and stovers: I would be willing to make modest monetary
>contributions to a charcoal (renewable carbon) web site. Increasingly, I
>think that charcoal (not hydrogen) is the fuel of the future. Happy
>holidays! Michael Antal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
Technical Consultants, Inc. Tel (503) 292-0107/646-1198
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax (503) 605-0208
Portland, Oregon, USA 97225

Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From tmiles at teleport.com Wed Dec 15 21:22:35 1999
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:27 2004
Subject: Equipment for Flax Logs
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991215183219.03818750@mail.teleport.com>

FWD to the list for Shannon Simpson.

Hi. I am a farmer from Saskatchewan and want to know if you have any
info regarding making fire logs out of flax staw? Is there machinery to
make logs out of straw?
Sincerely: Shannon Simpson
Email: roseanne@sk.sympatico.ca

From CampbellDB at EHProject.org Thu Dec 16 20:05:17 1999
From: CampbellDB at EHProject.org (Campbell, Dan)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: 2 recent WHO reports on biomass fires and air quality guidelines
Message-ID: <199912170105.UAA15444@solstice.crest.org>

<<Vegetation fires.htm>> <<WHO guidelines for air quality, 1999.htm>>

http://www.who.int/peh/air/vegetation_fires.htm"

>"WHO guidelines for air quality, 1999.htm"
>
>"http://www.who.int/peh/air/Airqualitygd.htm"
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Fri Dec 17 09:14:14 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Tom who???
Message-ID: <0.299a6b29.258ba06a@cs.com>

Dear ...:

There are too many TOMs in gasification/stoves, (Tom Miles, Tom Milne, Tom
Taylor, apologies to those missed) so please use last names as well when
refering to TOMs ...

And, your humble servant,

TOM REED BEF
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Fri Dec 17 09:15:16 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Hydrogen vs charcoal
Message-ID: <0.85e68a28.258ba065@cs.com>

Dear all:

As I get older (but not old) I increasingly agree with Mike Antal about
charcoal being the real fuel of the real future.

In 1970 or so, the so called "hydrogen economy" burst upon us. Initially it
was based on the premise that with the then burgeoning nuclear power,
electricity would be free, but we would need a storable, transportable fuel
for cars etc.

(Hydrogenis a great chemical - widely used in many chemical plants, but
hydrogen is the most expensive, least storable and transportable of all
fuels. The only real world regular use of hydrogen is by glass and quartz
blowers, all else is subsidized. Methane is better, propane and dimethyl
ether outstanding, liquid hydrocarbons and alcohols are great.)

The dreamers seized on the beauty of a fuel so clean that the only byproduct
was water and you could drink the exhaust of your car. Personally I have
never needed to do that. If I were a plant I would much prefer H2O and CO2
as an exhaust product. Dream on, dreamers (I think they still meet yearly).

The DOE is regularly pressurized into subsidizing hydrogen programs to
improve the dismal properties of hydrogen as a fuel - expensive to make, hard
to store and knocks in engines unless you dilute it (as with producer gas).

The only virtue I give hydrogen is that it is the easiest fuel for use in
fuel cells, and we hope that lead will disappear with carbonate, phosphate
and solid oxide cells which can handle real world hydrogen-carbon mixed
fuels.

Meanwhile Nature uses sugars as her preferred fuel and we use either
hydrocarbons or alcohols for easily transported liquid fuels.

~~~~~~

Charcoal has many drawbacks --- but has been the principal fuel of humans for
20,000 years and we have learned to work around them.

Making wood into charcoal typically gives yields of 30% in industrial
processes and 15-20% in backward countries where it is still one of the few
simple fuel options. So, 70-80% of the wood's energy is wasted in simple
charcoal manufacture.

Ron Larson (our stove moderator) has long been an enthusiast for charcoal
(and our top burning gasifier) because of extensive experience in Africa.

Prof. Mike Antal at the U. of Hawaii has developed a process for making o 45%
yield charcoal from wood. I hope he will take this opportunity to give us
all an overview of where that stands now. What fraction of the original wood
energy is captured?

Charcoal is a necessary product of wood pyrolysis and pyrolysis is a
necessary step in wood gasification and combustion. By properly gasifying
the charcoal intermediate during gasification, it is possible to make very
low tar and ash producer gas, so we in GASIFICATION need to pay attention to
the charcoal.

Millenial Cheers,

TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 12/15/99 1:29:47 PM Mountain Standard Time,
tmiles@teleport.com writes:

<< At 08:57 AM 12/15/99 -1000, Michael Antal wrote:
>Dear Tom and stovers: I would be willing to make modest monetary
>contributions to a charcoal (renewable carbon) web site. Increasingly, I
>think that charcoal (not hydrogen) is the fuel of the future. Happy
>holidays! Michael Antal.
>>
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From heat-win at cwcom.net Fri Dec 17 10:39:10 1999
From: heat-win at cwcom.net (T J Stubbing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Hydrogen vs charcoal
In-Reply-To: <0.85e68a28.258ba065@cs.com>
Message-ID: <385A5C1A.E2218F79@cwcom.net>

Dear All,
While I agree with what Tom (Reed) says about hydrogen, I don't entirely
agree with "charcoal being the real fuel of the real future.".
In my amateur opinion wood is the real fuel of the future, either
simply chipped, dried and consumed in power stations or commercial scale
heating boilers or dried as pieces and burnt in efficient solid fuel appliances.
Dried chip are also being pelletized to lower transport costs and enable
the uniform product to be delivered by road tanker and blown into consumers
storage hoppers.
As an alternative, wood can be dried and torrefied, i.e. heated to around
270 C. It then loses around 10% of its dry weight's energy but becomes
more versatile in its uses and cleaner burning than wood which has simply
been dried.
Instead of torrefying it at around 270 C the process temperature can
be increased further to convert the wood into charcoal, which further reduces
the solid's energy yield. This is fine as long as the pyrolysis
gases are efficiently, cleanly and usefully burnt, e.g. to dry additional
wood.
Apart from bamboo which can be used instead in warm climates, wood is
the most abundant of renewable energy sources in terms of dry weight production
per acre per annum. Fossil fuels are not renewable and, in terms
of human millennia, are fast disappearing. Oil especially is now
being consumed at four times the rate at which new reserves are being discovered,
see the concluding paragraph of <http://www.hubbertpeak.com/campbell/commons.htm>,
so unless we sustainably use the forests we've got left and plant far more
trees now while developing full utilization of the harvest, including producing
liquid fuels from it by fast pyrolysis, only the very rich will be able
to stay warm and mobile through the next century.
Happy Millennium!
Thomas J Stubbing
Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:
Dear all:
As I get older (but not old) I increasingly agree with Mike Antal about
charcoal being the real fuel of the real future.
In 1970 or so, the so called "hydrogen economy" burst upon us.
Initially it
was based on the premise that with the then burgeoning nuclear power,
electricity would be free, but we would need a storable, transportable
fuel
for cars etc.
(Hydrogenis a great chemical - widely used in many chemical plants,
but
hydrogen is the most expensive, least storable and transportable of
all
fuels. The only real world regular use of hydrogen is by glass
and quartz
blowers, all else is subsidized. Methane is better, propane and dimethyl
ether outstanding, liquid hydrocarbons and alcohols are great.)
The dreamers seized on the beauty of a fuel so clean that the only byproduct
was water and you could drink the exhaust of your car. Personally
I have
never needed to do that. If I were a plant I would much prefer
H2O and CO2
as an exhaust product. Dream on, dreamers (I think they still
meet yearly).
The DOE is regularly pressurized into subsidizing hydrogen programs
to
improve the dismal properties of hydrogen as a fuel - expensive to
make, hard
to store and knocks in engines unless you dilute it (as with producer
gas).
The only virtue I give hydrogen is that it is the easiest fuel for use
in
fuel cells, and we hope that lead will disappear with carbonate, phosphate
and solid oxide cells which can handle real world hydrogen-carbon mixed
fuels.
Meanwhile Nature uses sugars as her preferred fuel and we use either
hydrocarbons or alcohols for easily transported liquid fuels.

~~~~~~
Charcoal has many drawbacks --- but has been the principal fuel of humans
for
20,000 years and we have learned to work around them.
Making wood into charcoal typically gives yields of 30% in industrial
processes and 15-20% in backward countries where it is still one of
the few
simple fuel options. So, 70-80% of the wood's energy is wasted
in simple
charcoal manufacture.
Ron Larson (our stove moderator) has long been an enthusiast for charcoal
(and our top burning gasifier) because of extensive experience in Africa.
Prof. Mike Antal at the U. of Hawaii has developed a process for making
o 45%
yield charcoal from wood. I hope he will take this opportunity
to give us
all an overview of where that stands now. What fraction of the
original wood
energy is captured?
Charcoal is a necessary product of wood pyrolysis and pyrolysis is a
necessary step in wood gasification and combustion. By properly
gasifying
the charcoal intermediate during gasification, it is possible to make
very
low tar and ash producer gas, so we in GASIFICATION need to pay attention
to
the charcoal.
Millenial Cheers,
TOM REED
BEF
In a message dated 12/15/99 1:29:47 PM Mountain Standard Time,
tmiles@teleport.com writes:
<< At 08:57 AM 12/15/99 -1000, Michael Antal wrote:
>Dear Tom and stovers: I would be willing to make modest monetary
>contributions to a charcoal (renewable carbon) web site.
Increasingly, I
>think that charcoal (not hydrogen) is the fuel of the future.
Happy
>holidays! Michael Antal.
>>
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From antal at wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu Fri Dec 17 13:02:40 1999
From: antal at wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu (Michael Antal)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Hydrogen vs charcoal
In-Reply-To: <0.85e68a28.258ba065@cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPX.4.03.9912170805020.27605-100000@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu>

Dear Tom: thanks for your message. The only thing you omitted was the
development of carbon fuel cells. We are working on the final draft of a
paper entitled "Attainment of the theoretical yield of carbon from
biomass." When it is accepted for publication (after the review process),
I will make it available to everyone who is interested. Best wishes,
Michael.

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:

> Dear all:
>
> As I get older (but not old) I increasingly agree with Mike Antal about
> charcoal being the real fuel of the real future.
>
> In 1970 or so, the so called "hydrogen economy" burst upon us. Initially it
> was based on the premise that with the then burgeoning nuclear power,
> electricity would be free, but we would need a storable, transportable fuel
> for cars etc.
>
> (Hydrogenis a great chemical - widely used in many chemical plants, but
> hydrogen is the most expensive, least storable and transportable of all
> fuels. The only real world regular use of hydrogen is by glass and quartz
> blowers, all else is subsidized. Methane is better, propane and dimethyl
> ether outstanding, liquid hydrocarbons and alcohols are great.)
>
> The dreamers seized on the beauty of a fuel so clean that the only byproduct
> was water and you could drink the exhaust of your car. Personally I have
> never needed to do that. If I were a plant I would much prefer H2O and CO2
> as an exhaust product. Dream on, dreamers (I think they still meet yearly).
>
> The DOE is regularly pressurized into subsidizing hydrogen programs to
> improve the dismal properties of hydrogen as a fuel - expensive to make, hard
> to store and knocks in engines unless you dilute it (as with producer gas).
>
> The only virtue I give hydrogen is that it is the easiest fuel for use in
> fuel cells, and we hope that lead will disappear with carbonate, phosphate
> and solid oxide cells which can handle real world hydrogen-carbon mixed
> fuels.
>
> Meanwhile Nature uses sugars as her preferred fuel and we use either
> hydrocarbons or alcohols for easily transported liquid fuels.
>
> ~~~~~~
>
> Charcoal has many drawbacks --- but has been the principal fuel of humans for
> 20,000 years and we have learned to work around them.
>
> Making wood into charcoal typically gives yields of 30% in industrial
> processes and 15-20% in backward countries where it is still one of the few
> simple fuel options. So, 70-80% of the wood's energy is wasted in simple
> charcoal manufacture.
>
> Ron Larson (our stove moderator) has long been an enthusiast for charcoal
> (and our top burning gasifier) because of extensive experience in Africa.
>
> Prof. Mike Antal at the U. of Hawaii has developed a process for making o 45%
> yield charcoal from wood. I hope he will take this opportunity to give us
> all an overview of where that stands now. What fraction of the original wood
> energy is captured?
>
> Charcoal is a necessary product of wood pyrolysis and pyrolysis is a
> necessary step in wood gasification and combustion. By properly gasifying
> the charcoal intermediate during gasification, it is possible to make very
> low tar and ash producer gas, so we in GASIFICATION need to pay attention to
> the charcoal.
>
> Millenial Cheers,
>
> TOM REED BEF
>
> In a message dated 12/15/99 1:29:47 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> tmiles@teleport.com writes:
>
> << At 08:57 AM 12/15/99 -1000, Michael Antal wrote:
> >Dear Tom and stovers: I would be willing to make modest monetary
> >contributions to a charcoal (renewable carbon) web site. Increasingly, I
> >think that charcoal (not hydrogen) is the fuel of the future. Happy
> >holidays! Michael Antal.
> >>
>

From tmiles at teleport.com Fri Dec 17 21:04:37 1999
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Tom who???
In-Reply-To: <0.299a6b29.258ba06a@cs.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991217181428.01cb5230@mail.teleport.com>

Tom Reed,

This only becomes important when you start answering your own email. It's
happened!

Happy Holidays.

Tom Miles

At 09:19 AM 12/17/99 -0500, Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:
>Dear ...:
>
>There are too many TOMs in gasification/stoves, (Tom Miles, Tom Milne, Tom
>Taylor, apologies to those missed) so please use last names as well when
>refering to TOMs ...
>
>And, your humble servant,
>
>TOM REED BEF
>Gasification List SPONSORS, ARCHIVES and Information
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

-------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
T.R. Miles, Technical Consultants, Inc.
1470 SW Woodward Way
Portland, Oregon, USA Tel:(503) 646-1198/292-0107
http://www.teleport.com/~tmiles/ Fax:(503) 605-0208/292-2919
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Fri Dec 17 23:07:12 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Forwarding Jim Arcate on charcoaling
Message-ID: <v01540b00b480ad15cc1e@[204.131.233.24]>

Stovers:

Jim Arcate said today:

>
>Dear Tom Reed:
>
>I promoted charcoal (using Dr. Antal's process) for co-firing with coal =
>in PC power plants for more than 2 years. See =
>http://www.techtp.com/cofire/ I recall you telling me high yield =
>charcoal might be good for stoves. Now it's a fuel of the future ?
>
>Torrefied Wood may be a more practical biomass fuel than high yield =
>charcoal. =20
>
>>From my web site www.techtp.com
>
>"During the 1930's in France, the qualities of what was then known as =
>torrefied wood warranted subsidies for research into its production and =
>use in gasifiers. In the 1980's the French developed industrial =
>equipment for production of torrefied wood and expressed considerable =
>interest in
>torrefied wood as a substitute for conventional charcoal."
>
>best regards, =20
>
>
>Jim Arcate
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <Reedtb2@cs.com>
>To: <tmiles@teleport.com>; <antal@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu>;
><Gasification@crest.org>; <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 4:19 AM
>Subject: GAS-L: Hydrogen vs charcoal
>
>Dear all:
>
>As I get older (but not old) I increasingly agree with Mike Antal about
>charcoal being the real fuel of the real future.

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From phait at hwy97.net Sat Dec 18 11:28:48 1999
From: phait at hwy97.net (Paul Hait)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: charcoal/ Pyromid says send me a bill.
In-Reply-To: <199912151757.MAA05536@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <003e01bf4975$9f9e0d80$2987bece@paulhait>

Dear Tom,

Merry Christmas!
Please send me a bill for 2000 for a Charcoal sight.
Paul Hait
President
Pyromid
62029 Fall Creek Loop
Bend, Oregon 97702
541.318.6361
www.pyromid.net
phait@hwy97.net

Our new plant location is in Eugene at Pacific Metal Fab.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Miles <tmiles@teleport.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>; Michael Antal <antal@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu>
Cc: <Reedtb2@cs.com>; <gasification@crest.org>; <bioenergy@crest.org>;
<danday@scientificcarbons.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: charcoal

> Mike,
>
> Is this what you're thinking of?
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> If you, Scientific Carbons, Transnational Technologies, Dynamotive and
> others will help sponsor the lists we'd be happy to build out a Renewable
> Carbon site at CREST.
>
> Sponsorship is $300/year, or $25/mo with a minimum of 4 months.
>
> See http://crest.org/services/biolist-spons.shtml and send CREST a check.
>
> Happy Holidays
>
>
> Tom Miles
>
>
>
>
> At 08:57 AM 12/15/99 -1000, Michael Antal wrote:
> >Dear Tom and stovers: I would be willing to make modest monetary
> >contributions to a charcoal (renewable carbon) web site. Increasingly, I
> >think that charcoal (not hydrogen) is the fuel of the future. Happy
> >holidays! Michael Antal.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
> Technical Consultants, Inc. Tel (503) 292-0107/646-1198
> 1470 SW Woodward Way Fax (503) 605-0208
> Portland, Oregon, USA 97225
>
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From tmiles at teleport.com Sat Dec 18 12:08:34 1999
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: charcoal/ Pyromid says send me a bill.
In-Reply-To: <199912151757.MAA05536@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991218091411.034a2450@mail.teleport.com>

Paul,

And Merry Christmas to you!

Thanks for your support

Regards,

Tom Miles

At 08:33 AM 12/18/99 -0800, Paul Hait wrote:
>Dear Tom,
>
>Merry Christmas!
>Please send me a bill for 2000 for a Charcoal sight.
>Paul Hait
>President
>Pyromid
>62029 Fall Creek Loop
>Bend, Oregon 97702
>541.318.6361
>www.pyromid.net
>phait@hwy97.net
>
>Our new plant location is in Eugene at Pacific Metal Fab.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Tom Miles <tmiles@teleport.com>
>To: <stoves@crest.org>; Michael Antal <antal@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu>
>Cc: <Reedtb2@cs.com>; <gasification@crest.org>; <bioenergy@crest.org>;
><danday@scientificcarbons.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:33 PM
>Subject: Re: charcoal
>
>
> > Mike,
> >
> > Is this what you're thinking of?
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> >
> > If you, Scientific Carbons, Transnational Technologies, Dynamotive and
> > others will help sponsor the lists we'd be happy to build out a Renewable
> > Carbon site at CREST.
> >
> > Sponsorship is $300/year, or $25/mo with a minimum of 4 months.
> >
> > See http://crest.org/services/biolist-spons.shtml and send CREST a check.
> >
> > Happy Holidays
> >
> >
> > Tom Miles
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 08:57 AM 12/15/99 -1000, Michael Antal wrote:
> > >Dear Tom and stovers: I would be willing to make modest monetary
> > >contributions to a charcoal (renewable carbon) web site. Increasingly, I
> > >think that charcoal (not hydrogen) is the fuel of the future. Happy
> > >holidays! Michael Antal.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----
> > Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
> > Technical Consultants, Inc. Tel (503) 292-0107/646-1198
> > 1470 SW Woodward Way Fax (503) 605-0208
> > Portland, Oregon, USA 97225
> >
> > Stoves Webpage
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> > Stoves List Sponsors, Archive and Information
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> > http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Dec 22 08:55:28 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Hydrogen vs charcoal
Message-ID: <0.40de2719.25923389@cs.com>

Dear Thomas et al:

I fully agree that Wood/Biomass is a better future fuel than charcoal - when
we learn to pyrolyse/gasify/combust with good control.

I misspoke if it sounded like I was recommending charcoal.

Of course the liquid fuel of the future is METHANOL, easily made from most
other lesser fuels. And it's sibling, dimethyl ether which has properties
almost identical with propane. But first we have to flush the ethanol/ADM
people out of the system.

Yours truly,

TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 12/17/99 8:49:42 AM Mountain Standard Time,
heat-win@cwcom.net writes:

<<
Dear All,

While I agree with what Tom (Reed) says about hydrogen, I don't entirely
agree
with "charcoal being the real fuel of the real future.".

In my amateur opinion wood is the real fuel of the future, either simply
chipped,
dried and consumed in power stations or commercial scale heating boilers or
dried
as pieces and burnt in efficient solid fuel appliances. Dried chip are also
being pelletized to lower transport costs and enable the uniform product to
be
delivered by road tanker and blown into consumers storage hoppers.

As an alternative, wood can be dried and torrefied, i.e. heated to around
270 C.
It then loses around 10% of its dry weight's energy but becomes more
versatile in
its uses and cleaner burning than wood which has simply been dried.

Instead of torrefying it at around 270 C the process temperature can be
increased
further to convert the wood into charcoal, which further reduces the solid's
energy yield. This is fine as long as the pyrolysis gases are efficiently,
cleanly and usefully burnt, e.g. to dry additional wood.

Apart from bamboo which can be used instead in warm climates, wood is the
most
abundant of renewable energy sources in terms of dry weight production per
acre
per annum. Fossil fuels are not renewable and, in terms of human millennia,
are
fast disappearing. Oil especially is now being consumed at four times the
rate
at which new reserves are being discovered, see the concluding paragraph of
<http://www.hubbertpeak.com/campbell/commons.htm>, so unless we sustainably
use
the forests we've got left and plant far more trees now while developing full
utilization of the harvest, including producing liquid fuels from it by fast
pyrolysis, only the very rich will be able to stay warm and mobile through
the
next century.

Happy Millennium!

Thomas J Stubbing
>>
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From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Dec 22 08:55:50 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Torrefied wood and ethanol from cellulose
Message-ID: <0.771d8818.25923386@cs.com>

Dear all:

When I heard the torrefied wood message in the early 1980s, I believed it had
a niche. Maybe so.

But maybe it is like cellulose to ethanol - always a bridesmaid, never a
bride!

Keeping an eye on the future,

TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 12/17/99 9:15:07 PM Mountain Standard Time, larcon@sni.net
writes:

<< om my web site www.techtp.com
>
>"During the 1930's in France, the qualities of what was then known as =
>torrefied wood warranted subsidies for research into its production and =
>use in gasifiers. In the 1980's the French developed industrial =
>equipment for production of torrefied wood and expressed considerable =
>interest in
>torrefied wood as a substitute for conventional charcoal."
>
>best regards, =20
>
>
>Jim Arcate >>
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From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Dec 22 08:57:39 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Hydrogen vs charcoal/ HTA and Charcoal
Message-ID: <0.c0ee8e9a.25923383@cs.com>

Dear Paul:

Congratulations on converting talk about stoves to tens of thousands out
there working. We expect to do the same with our Turbo stove.

A few questions:

Have you ever suspended a CO meter 3 feet above stove and measured CO
levels? Those people who say NO emissions probably have never measured them
and are going by smell. But CO doesn't smell.

Can you figure out some way that the 70% energy wasted in charcoal
production from biomass can be recovered?

Have you seen the nifty charcoal briquettes/bricks made from sugar cane
trash by Priadarshina? I hope you will be going to the Karve/Pune
conference. I hope I'll be there - with Vivian, my wife who has never been
to India.

Yours for a better world for the other half,

TOM REED

Dear Tom,

Merry Charcoalmas !

I cannot help but believe that Charcoal in a Briquette form is the ultimate
answer. I further believe that organizing the Charcoal in a Thermal Array is
better yet. Further, if you take advantage of the heat up and down ( 1000F
up and 500F down ) you can cook and bake at the same time. I also believe
that reflectivity is important as well as safety ,durabilty, and
portability. Then comes cost. The stove must last and last and be something
that is easily transportable in an a crisis. The HTA Cell Stove burns up to
25 briquettes. Puts 1000F up and 500 F down. It burns for up to 3.5 hours.
It drys its own briquettes under the stove and is an oven, griddle, grill,
and burner all in one. It's dimension is 121/2" x 121/2" x 4". It will cook
food for 12 people. It can be placed in the home with proper ventilation and
removed IMMEDIATELY in a disaster. Further the oven will shield a pot for
efficient use of the rising heat. A simple foil shield placed around the
stove and oven with dead air space in between and lower ventilation holes
causes the stove to burn very hot and puts the heat to the pot efficiently.
It works! The SST430 allows us to put the stoves into any kind of climate
situation without rusting out.

We are now in a new plant with productive capacity for 10,000 stoves per
week. My hope is that after the Pune' Conference Pyromids burning principals
will be better understood. Go to our new domain www.pyromid.net . It is
working and our sales are growing rapidly. Our Auction was a success and all
of our tooling and most of our equipment is now in Eugene. We are now a
marketing company and R&D and out of the production business after 19 years.
We have Pyromid LTD Europe and a licensee starting up in S Africa. The first
offshore Pyromids were tooled in Italy, in Torino and they look great.

We have 10's of thousands of Pyromids distributed throughout the world and
we have only taken back less than 30 in 19 years and for minor reasons. The
product works and the material we chose was the right one to begin with. If
we had chosen steel or aluminum we would have been out of business a long
time ago. SST430 was the right choice. The Pyramid Shape allowed us to have
true portabilty and open up the MOBILE and EMERGENCY STOVE market. The
Harmonic Thermal Array has proven how little fuel you need for cooking if
you just organize it and back it up with a reflector.

No doubt I have moved from research to production with a specific approach
that may not appeal to other stove designers, however it has proven itself
millions of times over the past 19 years. I realize there are many ways to"
skin the cat" in this stove world. Your down draft burning system is novel
but it has many variables to deal with. Standardization in fuel and burning
environment is critical in my opinion. Therefore, the briquette in an HTA
backed up by a foil reflector starts to standardize. Now we enter a new era
in the growth of our company with the RED CROSS Pyromid fund. I am faxing
the latest request for stoves in the hopes that you will get the word out to
the Crest Family. Note Paragraph 9.

Good luck with your new lab and I hope I can visit it this year. Thank you
for all your unselfish efforts to solve this #1 problem, The inefficient
burning of natural fuels worldwide."

Merry Christmas and a very Happy Y2K.

Sincerely,
Paul Hait
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From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Dec 22 08:59:26 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Modelling Biomass Cookstoves
Message-ID: <0.4fc6ad9c.259233fc@cs.com>

Dear Dean:

Thanks for your reply to my question on actual STOVE work here in STOVES.
Glad to see some work on stoves still going on.

I hope I have a chance to visit you at Aprevecho and that you visit here.
Khris Kircher, as student at the Colorado School of Mines, and I have just
completed collecting data on the Turbo Wood-Gas Stove for better modelling of
stoves. We will be presenting a paper at the Thermochemical Conversion
Conference in Austria next September, but using the data starting now.

I add comments to your observations below based in part on our recent
results:
>Dear Tom,
>
>I think that I also asked the same question a while back. To try to perk up
>interest, here are my most flamboyant opinions! I think that the stove
>community does not yet understand how stoves work. First job is to make an
>accurate model of how a cooking stove works. This takes some engineering,
>studying, experimentation!
>
Agreed: We need to UNDERSTAND stoves quantitatively, not just keep
recombining qualitative principles.

>By partially submerging the three pots below the level of a cement or metal
>griddle surface a lot of pot surface area is exposed to hot flue gases.
>Efficiencies are around 40%. Efficiences drop as less pot surface area is
>exposed.

Do the pots turn black with this deep submersion? One of the advantage of
the wood-gas stove is that the pots remain clean.

>The stove body, griddle, etc. is isolated from the heat by insulation. Only
>the pot is exposed to heat. In this case we use wood ash as insulation. A
>chimney carries the reduced amount of smoke out of the house.

I hope that as we add improved stoves to developing countries we will ALWAYS
include a hood or chimney. Cooking odors need to be removed too.

>I believe that heat transfer to the pot(s) is the most powerful determining
>variable in a cooking stove. Excess air does not, in my opinion, have a
huge effect on efficiency. Blocking excess air helps a bit but it is not a
>determining variable like heat transfer to the pot.
>
That goes along with our observations on the wood-gas stove. We tested heat
rate for a fixed fuel rate with varying excess air for combustion. While
excess air lowers the flame temperature, it increases the velocity which
partially compensates.

>Also, I believe that radiation only plays a small role in heating the
>cooking pot. Convection is largely responsible for cooking. Simple tests
>show that a pot has to be within a couple of inches of the glowing coals
for >radiation to have any real effect and in most stoves the pot is further
>away. So if cooking is mostly convective we run up against the rate at
which heat can travel through a square foot of pot.
>
Although it seems strange increasing the speed of hot flue gases as they
>bang up against the pot seems to increase heat transfer. Breaking through a
>air boundry layer?

Doesn't seem strange to me. Temperature and velocity are like volts and amps
- both necessary to deliver power (heat). Velocity reduces the boundary
layer.

> Fans are great but, of course, impractical for real world use.

Hey, we are talking DEVELOPING countries (with our help), not UNDEVELOPED
countries. These people need some electricity as much as they need better
cooking, and the 3 Watts for our Turbo stove is trivial compared to the 3,000
Watts of heat delivered.

>Top burn, downdraft, sidefeed are all options for the introduction of fuel.
>Top burn is the potentially cleanest but impractical because batch loading
>is not normally accepted and the fuel needs to be dry for top burning to
>work. Two strikes and you're out.
>
We batch load the food, why not the stove?

>Downdraft/downfeed also smokes less but people tend to dislike it and go
>back to sidefeed as soon as the experts have jumped back into the truck.
>
Or they buy kerosene or propane, if they can afford it.

>Sidefeed is how everyone everywhere introduces wood into a fire. This is
>reality, for better or worse. Sidefeed plus a door is where we end up in
the
>real, poor world.

Times are changing. Do we need to cater to old peoples conservative
experience or educate the next generation to do things right?

>We should have descriptions of the Rocket and Dona Justa stoves up soon on
>the Aprovecho home page.
>
>Actually, I believe that the stove community is within ten years of solving
>the cooking stove problem. First we need to accurately model what is
>happening in the wood burning stove. So far it's still poking at the
>elephant with an oar.
>
>Best,
>
>Dean Still
>Aprovecho
>
Great, Dean. Glad a few people at stoves are still working on stoves.

Yours truly,

TOM REED BEF
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From rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni Wed Dec 22 13:18:37 1999
From: rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni (Rogerio Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: merry christmas
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991222120217.00adc060@205.218.248.130>

Dear friends:

We sincerely wish to you a merry christmas full of peace and happiness, and
a very happy new year and mileniun, full of peace, health, love and
prosperity.

Managua, Nicaragua Rogerio and Margaret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda
Asesor Tecnico Principal
PROLEÑA/Nicaragua
Apartado Postal C-321
Managua, Nicaragua
TELEFAX (505) 276 2015, 270 5448
EMAIL: rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
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From tmiles at teleport.com Wed Dec 22 14:12:02 1999
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Bouncing Messages
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991222111217.03a14100@mail.teleport.com>

List Members,

Don't be alarmed if you have error messages bounce back at you when you
post to the bioenergy lists. At this time of year, during school holidays,
the email servers (computers) at many organizations get turned off during
maintenance outages. The CREST mailer tries to send messages for several
hours or days, then gives up. Just delete the error messages and wait for
the new milennium.

Some institutions (like U Twente, Utrecht, NTNU Trodheim) have changed
their email domains without enabling automatic transfer of old addresses.
Also, some institutions have simply turned off their mailers to avoid Y2K
nuisances. So network and email list administrators should get a
Y2K+end-of-the year bonus for handling the extra problems! :-)

Happy Holidays

Tom Miles
Bioenergy Lists Administrator

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
Technical Consultants, Inc. Tel (503) 292-0107/646-1198
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax (503) 605-0208
Portland, Oregon, USA 97225

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From arcate at email.msn.com Wed Dec 22 14:44:04 1999
From: arcate at email.msn.com (Jim Arcate)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Hydrogen vs charcoal
In-Reply-To: <0.40de2719.25923389@cs.com>
Message-ID: <003f01bf4cb6$1a4bd740$0100007f@localhost>

Dear Gasification et al:Maybe we can take a vote on the "best
fuel" of the future ? My vote for at least the next 20 years.

1. For countries such as the USA, the EU, etc.

heating your house = solar + natural gas or electric;heating hot water
= solar + natural gas or electric;transportation = petroleum
fuels;electric power production = coalI think biomass can be used as
a replacement for coal primarily via use of low cost wood and agricultural
wastes. Co-firing of biomass with coal in power plant boilers and
commercial heating plants is the largest and most economical biopower
application. Biomass can be co-fired as wood chips, fuel pellets, or if
appropriate converted to Torrefied Wood or charcoal for co-firing.

2. For developing countries ? The answers may be the same re "best"
but the facts of life are of course different.

For example, from The Regional Wood Energy Development Programme in Asia <A
href="http://www.rwedp.org/">http://www.rwedp.org/Wood energy (fuelwood
and charcoal) is, and will remain, an important source of energy in South and
Southeast Asia. In most countries between 20% and 80% of energy demand is met by
wood. The share of wood energy is declining because the consumption of
conventional fuels, like oil products and electricity, is increasing at a higher
rate, and not because the consumption of wood energy is decreasing. This
situation applies to all member countries of RWEDP.

Will they use wood in a renewable sustainable manner ? or switch to
conventional fuels like "we" did ?

Merry Christmas

Jim Arcate----- Original Message -----From: <<A
href="mailto:Reedtb2@cs.com">Reedtb2@cs.com>To: <<A
href="mailto:heat-win@cwcom.net">heat-win@cwcom.net>; <<A
href="mailto:bioenergy@crest.org">bioenergy@crest.org>; <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org>;<<A
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org>Sent:
Wednesday, December 22, 1999 4:00 AMSubject: Re: Hydrogen vs.
charcoalDear Thomas et al:I fully agree that Wood/Biomass is
a better future fuel than charcoal - whenwe learn to pyrolyse/gasify/combust
with good control.I misspoke if it sounded like I was recommending
charcoal.Of course the liquid fuel of the future is METHANOL, easily
made from mostother lesser fuels. And it's sibling, dimethyl ether
which has propertiesalmost identical with propane. But first we have
to flush the ethanol/ADMpeople out of the system.Yours
truly,TOM
REED
BEF

From phait at hwy97.net Thu Dec 23 06:14:02 1999
From: phait at hwy97.net (Paul Hait)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: merry christmas
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991222120217.00adc060@205.218.248.130>
Message-ID: <002001bf4d37$b3dcdf40$2587bece@paulhait>

Dear Fellow Stovers,

Merry Christmas and Happy Y2K.

Pyromid has now moved to Eugene,Oregon. We are supplying stoves to the Red
Cross for stockpiling worldwide. At present we have 75,000 going to the S.
Pacific through the Pyromid Fund. Donations for the Venezuelan disaster can
be sent to American Red Cross, Pyromid Fund, PO BOX 6839, Bend, Oregon
97708. Thank you for the support and lets hope that all of our efforts to
make this a more efficient natural fuel burning World will be more
recognized and supported in the new Millennium.

Sincerely,
Paul W. Hait
President
Pyromid Inc.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rogerio Miranda <rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni>
To: <bairds@igc.org>; <hugh.h.yendole@opc.simis.com>; <trueno@ibw.com.ni>;
<krksmith@uclink4.berkeley.edu>; <mharritt@usaid.gov>;
<marge_fr@compuserve.com>; <M.Hoogwijk@nwsmail.chem.uu.nl>;
<rene.masse@fnac.net>; <r.c.a.vandenbroek@chem.ruu.nl>;
<torsten.frisk@field.fao.org>; <wfloor@worldbank.org>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 10:02 AM
Subject: merry christmas

> Dear friends:
>
> We sincerely wish to you a merry christmas full of peace and happiness,
and
> a very happy new year and mileniun, full of peace, health, love and
> prosperity.
>
> Managua, Nicaragua Rogerio and Margaret
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda
> Asesor Tecnico Principal
> PROLEÑA/Nicaragua
> Apartado Postal C-321
> Managua, Nicaragua
> TELEFAX (505) 276 2015, 270 5448
> EMAIL: rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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From kmbryden at iastate.edu Thu Dec 23 13:45:00 1999
From: kmbryden at iastate.edu (kenneth mark bryden)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Fwd: Re: modelling of wood fired cooking stoves
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991223122243.00c6fe20@kmbryden.mail.iastate.edu>

Fellow Stovers,

I have followed the modeling discussion with great interest and apologize
for coming late to the discussion, between research related travel, and the
end of the semester I have been swamped with work. This is a brief
discussion of my work and as time and interest on the stoves list permits I
will build on this discussion.

My research work is based on building a high fidelity, time-dependent
models of wood stoves. These models will include wood combustion, solid and
gas phase reactions, low speed compressible flow and the coupling between
the buoyant flow and the combustion rate. Using these model I hope to
investigate combustion rate, efficiency, production of soot, production of
pollutants, etc. The models we are building will be similar to the models
used to investigate coal-fired furnaces (but slightly more advanced). The
current model is being built in parts. The wood combustion sub-model is
being built based on my doctoral work. The gas phase portion is being using
commercial software with user defined modules and extensions to couple the
buoyant flow and the solid phase reaction. Currently we have a 3-D,
nonreacting flow stoves model that we are building on. We are running it on
a 26 parallel processor machine. The primary goal of this work is to bring
the same kinds of design tools used for advanced energy system design to
stove design. Additionally, the results must be transferrable to real
stoves used by real people. This is a challenging problem.

Obviously this is a work in progress, the limiting factors are time and
funding (as in all university research efforts). I currently have two
graduate students (1 Ph.D. and 1 M.S.) and seven undergraduates working on
this project. Most of our effort our focused on the rocket stove, this is
because of ready access to the Approvecho (Dean Still and associates) and
the potential for near term distribution of the rocket stove or derivative
stoves. I do have a stove from ARTI (Dr. Karve) and we have conducted some
testing of the stove and done some global modeling but have not started the
high fidelity modeling effort.

Currently there are several parts to this work.
1. Testing of stoves - part of this is just efficiency testing etc needed
by others to compare stove performances, and to be an independent stoves
testing facility. The other part of the testing is obtaining the detailed
temperature profiles, combustion rates, gaseous products etc. needed to
validate the model of the stove.
2. The development of global design guidelines that help predict stove
performance.
3. The development of a high fidelity model described above.
4. Examining the interaction between the stove and the heat transfer
medium, e.g. the pot or the frying pan surface.

I hope by May 2000 to have preliminary results from the global modeling and
a test report detailing the performance characteristics of the rocket
stove. By the end of the year 2000 I plan to have papers written on the
first part of the modeling effort and on the impact of heat transfer to the
pan. I know there is a good deal of literature on some of this and hope to
extend it.

A couple of acknowledgments: working with Dean and friends is great, I love
their enthusiasm and hard work. I appreciate Dr. Karve's patience - she
sent me a stove about a year which we have setup and tested and but have
not yet had the resources to begin detailed modeling.

One of my students is currently working on a Web page for our work, when it
is functional I'll let you know.

If anyone has suggestions on research direction, opportunities for
application of the stoves modeling, questions on the testing capabilities
of my lab, questions on our modeling capabilities or computational
resources, or any other questions. Just let me know. I am always looking
for opportunities to collaborate on stoves work.

Happy holidays!

Mark Bryden

Ron Larson wrote:
>Dean:
> Thanks for the clarification on your modeling approach. As Mark is
>a valued member of the "stoves" list, I know he and his students will keep
>us informed as appropriate. But if Mark can indicate anything at this time
>as to how far along he is in this process - or where there may be
>theoretical modeling difficulties - the time frame will be helpful for our
>general stove improvement efforts and/or perhaps someone can offer some
>ideas.
>
>Dean Still wrote:
> >Aprovecho is working with Dr. Mark Bryden at Iowa State University who is
> >using the same computers and modelling techniques that they use to analyze
> >coal burning plants to investigate how wood burning cooking stoves function.
> >He has set up a stove lab and has students looking at different stoves from
> >around the world.
> >
> >Dr. Bryden is an expert at modelling and we hope that eventually he and his
> >students will successfully predict performance of various stoves.
> >
> >We're planning that if time permits he may be able to visit our team in
> >Nicaragua when they begin work with Prolena and Rogerio Miranda in February.

___________________________________________________________
Mark Bryden, Ph.D. Assistant Professor
kmbryden@iastate.edu Iowa State University
ph: 515-294-3891 3030 Black Engineering Bldg
fax: 515-294-3261 Ames, Iowa 50011-2161
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From dstill at epud.org Fri Dec 24 00:40:52 1999
From: dstill at epud.org (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Happy Holidays
Message-ID: <001001b53629$233399e0$3c2b74d8@default>

Dear Friends,

Last night we were quite lucky to see the brilliant full moon. It's usually
either raining or foggy here in Oregon. I hope that stovers around the world
shared this experience. In Mexico, we used to read by the full moon. If it
was winter, a wood fire usually kept off the chill from the desert as
moonlight illuminated the pages. Fires were started with wood from the choya
that lights with one match. Then a log of palo fiero would burn for hour
after hour without smoking.

I hope that our work helps humankind to re-establish Eden, to use resources
at less than the rate of growth. Towards this end, I wish us all a great
holiday, full of spirit and mystery and discovery whose goal is the
lessening of human suffering.

Best,

Dean Still
Aprovecho

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sat Dec 25 09:02:32 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Best 21st Century FUEL vote
Message-ID: <0.52d8e606.259629b5@cs.com>

Dear List:

Jim Arcate suggest a vote on best fuel for the future. If we want to have a
serious vote, we need first to define what we mean by "FUEL". Since I am a
FUEL CHEMIST, I am sensitive to this question and it is a good one.

My Webster Dictionary says "a combustible material used as a source of heat
or energy. ... The principal solid fuels are formed from decayed vegetable
matter and consist mainly of carbon and hydrogen. They include anthracite
coal.... The principal liquid fuels - diesel oil, gasoline and kerosene -
are obtained from petroeum. A gaseous fuel, natural gas is obtained usually
from subterranean wells and others (coal gas, water gas and producer gas) are
manuractured from coal."

No mention of wood or biomass, but of course that is a parochial viewpoint.
Coal didn't come into wide use until the 19th century, oil until the 20th,
natural gas until the 20 1/2th Century. For the preceding 100 centuries of
Civilization, it was primarily WOOD.
~~~~~~~~~~~
"FUEL" often implies a processed commodity material. A barrel of oil is NOT
a fuel. We have to refine it first. Natural gas at the wellhead is barely a
fuel, since it was formerly flared. Natural gas piped to my basement is a
TERRIFIC fuel. (It is also a very useful chemical and can be made into other
fuels such as gasoline or methanol.) But it requires a $1M/mile pipeline to
make it useful.

Gasoline and diesel are great fuels.
Propane/butane are great fuels.
Coal is only a fuel for heat (or power from steam).

Wood is barely a fuel, depending - hard to burn if wet and we often have to
cut it and prepare it first. It is 2/3 air by volume, so expensive to store
and ship.

Ag-residues are not fuels - unless you are willing to prepare them for very
specific devices taylored to their combustion.

Densified Wood (with the air squeezed out and sized to pellets or logs) are
a good fuel, easy to ship and use for heat and power, but requiring 100 hp
hour/ton. Pellets are becoming commonly available in the U.S. due to the use
of pellet stoves.

Wood-gas is a fuel, made in a gasifier to run an engine or produce heat for
industrial purposes.

Syn-Gas is a mixture of CO and H2 and can be made from natural gas, coal or
biomass. It is not a fuel in it's own right (although similar to water gas
or city gas in the old days), but if can be converted to gasoline, diesel,
methanol or methane by well known processes. (Not backyard processes
however.)
~~~~~
So, generally by "FUEL" we mean some energy source that has been taylored to
an end use.

Often we mean LIQUID FUEL when we say FUEL, and that is what we are most
worried about as this petroleum age approaches its eventual end. We are
looking for a cheap replacement for our beloved gasoline.

My favorite alternate liquid fuels are

METHANOL which burns clean, is very high octane and can be made from any
form of waste biomass (or from coal or natural gas). It currently costs
about $.50/gal in bulk.

DI-METHYL ETHER - (Even better than methanol, liquid in the storage and
distribution, a gas when you burn it. It has the same properties as propane,
and is easily made instead of methanol from syn-gas.)

For me, ETHANOL is a distant third fuel choice, currently consuming a food
(corn in its manufacture and producing lots of dirty water. It was
originally subsidized to be an aid to farmers, but has become a major subsidy
for ADM instead. (A National Disgrace which Senator McCain has opposed.)
The dream of converting cellulose to sugars is still not commercialized
after a century of major subsidies.
~~~~~
I became a fuel chemist because I like driving my car and am not sure of
future gasoline supplies.

So here's a cup of ETHANOL to a smooth transition to whatever renewable fuel
we decide on for the 21st Century.

Yours truly, TOM REED THE BIOMASS ENERGY FOUNDATION

In a message dated 12/22/99 12:54:20 PM Mountain Standard Time,
arcate@email.msn.com writes:

<<
Dear Gasification et al:

Maybe we can take a vote on the "best fuel" of the future ? My vote for at
least the next 20 years.

next 20 years.

1. For countries such as the USA, the EU, etc.

heating your house = solar + natural gas or electric;
heating hot water = solar + natural gas or electric;
transportation = petroleum fuels;
electric power production = coal

I think biomass can be used as a replacement for coal primarily via use of
low cost wood and agricultural wastes. Co-firing of biomass with coal in
power plant boilers and commercial heating plants is the largest and most
economical biopower application. Biomass can be co-fired as wood chips, fuel
pellets, or if appropriate converted to Torrefied Wood or charcoal for
co-firing.

2. For developing countries ? The answers may be the same re "best" but the
facts of life are of course different.

For example, from The Regional Wood Energy Development Programme in Asia
http://www.rwedp.org/
Wood energy (fuelwood and charcoal) is, and will remain, an important source
of energy in South and Southeast Asia. In most countries between 20% and 80%
of energy demand is met by wood. The share of wood energy is declining
because the consumption of conventional fuels, like oil products and
electricity, is increasing at a higher rate, and not because the consumption
of wood energy is decreasing. This situation applies to all member countries
of RWEDP.

Will they use wood in a renewable sustainable manner ? or switch to
conventional fuels like "we" did ?

Merry Christmas

Jim Arcate
>>
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From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sat Dec 25 09:02:43 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Biomass (wood chips) Emissions and Air Quality
Message-ID: <0.cc040786.259629bf@cs.com>

Dear Sten:

Glad to find you as my ultimate ESP expert. Here are a few questions and
comments of interest:

1) Gasification of biomass produces a gas much easier to clean than the
combustion products, since the volume is 1/4 as much and the temperature 1/2
to 1/4 as much, depending on the process. So

a) gasify
b) clean
c) combust

2) It is my understanding that Cristobolite is the real killer in fly ash
when it gets to your lungs - not alpha or beta quartz, which I believe are
more soluble and so eventually pass out. Is this true?

Thanks for your help,

TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 12/21/99 12:41:23 AM Mountain Standard Time,
tmiles@teleport.com writes:

<< Dear Dwayne S. Berger

It is a pleasure to give some comments to your request for information on
the emissions of particles from combustion of wood chips.

My background.
I am an electrostatic precipitator expert, in fact an International
Fellow of Electrostatic Precipitation according to a framed diploma in
front of me dated November 15, 1984.
- I worked about 35 years with the former Flakt company now part of ABB
- A few years ago, I wrote on contract from the Swedish Waterpower
Board , a report on the distribution of trace metals in ashes from the
combustion of wood fuels.
- I am presently president of the Swedish Clean Air Society which
means that I follow closely the research in Europe on particle emissions
from the combustion of biofuels. In Sweden this emission is considered as a
threat to the health of citizens comparable to that from particles formed
by the combustion of gasoline and diesel fuel.

I treat the questions in the order they appear in your message. All values
are metric. 1 grain/ S CF equals about 2.28 grams/ normal cum.

1. The emission of particles for various fuels approximately
follow their ash content. Approx. concentrations for different fuels in
grams per normal cum would be for gas almost zero; oil 0.1; wood chips 2
and coal 10-15.
Note the difference in size of the PE between fuels. Whereas
those from coal combustion may have a mean grain size of 10 to 15 micron
and those from oil combustion will vary a lot with the burner equipment,
recent research in Europé indicates that particles from the combustion of
wood chips is mainly PM2.5 which means that 50 percent of the particle mass
is smaller than 2.5 micron. Research in Denmark shows that particles from
firing straw is mainly submicron. The smaller the particle the higher the
risk that it will reach the lungs of humans.

2. The higher the temperature in the combustion zone the finer the
particle. Thus it could be expected that those from a fludized bed would
not be as fine as those from grate firing.

3. The ESP is the preferred equipment for particulate control in
Sweden. It is
used down to boiler sizes of about 3 MW fuel input. For boilers in the
range from about 0.5 to 3 MW mechnical collectors are used. In both cases
the collector is usually followed by a condensing unit in order to increase
the output of heat from the plant. It usually connected to a distric
heating network.
An ESP is usually designed for an emission of 30 mg/normal cum and
will together with the condensing unit give much less. A mechnical
collector and a following condensing unit will give an emission of 70-150
mg/normal cum.

4. Swedish research is presently concentrated on measures to decrease
emissions of all types from the about 440.000 small boilers that are
installed in one family houses around the country. It is quite a task to
promote the use of wood fuels on one hand and on the other ask people to
spend a lot of money on their old woodfired boiler in order to decrease
emissions of tars and obnoxious gases. But so called accumulators must be
installed eventually if emissions from these old type boilers shall
decrease.

5. The use of pellets, hopefully manufactured from low ash content
wood and not from s.c. recycled wood which should be looked upon as refuse,
is
promoted also for the very small boilers. ESPs appear to be too costly for
boilers in the 0.5 to 2-3 MW range. The cost of a fabric filter is less
size dependent but its merits would have to be proven at plants in Sweden.
In Denmark and on the continent it is apparently used with satifactory
results.

As a general comment I suggest that natural gas should be the preferred
fuel for small plants and biofuel for larger units. The latter can afford
effective control of particulate emissions and the combustion will be
better than in small units .

I hope this has been of some help.

Sten Maartmann
Stenmaar@algonet.se
Blåhammarv.15
S-132 42 Saltsjö-Boo
Tel & fax +46 87 15 22 80 >>
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From tmiles at teleport.com Wed Dec 29 12:06:30 1999
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: No Attachments to CREST Email Please
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991229091917.03121f00@mail.teleport.com>

List Members,

As browsers and email software have improved we receive more graphic posting to the list. We have a (40,000 character) limit on the size of messages that can be posted to CREST lists (bioenergy, stoves, gasification, digestion, bioconversion). This enables people with low bandwidth systems to send and receive email easily. It also prevents most unsolicited email (SPAM) and large attachments from reaching the lists (it all comes to me). This policy has kept the lists manageable.

Please respect the limitations and do not post attachments to the list. Instead, refer in your messages to attachments, graphics or documents posted on your web site, or, if you prefer, send the attachments to me and I will post them on the Bioenergy web pages.

Thanks and Happy New Year

Tom Miles
Bioenergy Lists Administrator

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
Technical Consultants, Inc. Tel (503) 292-0107/646-1198
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax (503) 605-0208
Portland, Oregon, USA 97225

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From EBYMAST at maf.org Thu Dec 30 09:07:40 1999
From: EBYMAST at maf.org (ebymast)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Solar Wood Kiln
Message-ID: <199912301407.JAA18468@solstice.crest.org>

To all who are interested, Dec. 30 1999

We are looking for information on solar drying wood. We were given
this address from the Intermediate Technology office in Nairobi,
Kenya.

We are working in Kenya on promoting the use of faster growing trees
for wood carving. Traditionally the wood carvers here in Kenya, as
well as much of East Africa, have used slow growing hard woods. This
has had a very detrimental effect on the indigenous forests as the
majority of the trees were cut from the local woodlands. The trees
that we are working with have a much faster growth rate and can be
planted on plantations as well as the individual carvers farms. As a
result of the faster growth rate these species have a higher water
content and a much slower drying time once cut.

What has been happening traditionally is the wood is carved wet then
let dry which has not been a problem in the slow growth trees. In the
faster growing trees we have been having some cracking and even some
mold on the pieces that get exported. We know that these woods do
cure nicely when left to dry longer or are cured in a gas kiln. Both
of these techniques are cost prohibitive, increased drying time means
a larger and longer investment in wood in order to let it sit, and
traditional kiln drying is expensive to operate on a large scale
(US$100 /cubic meter) plus the cost of transportation to and from the
kiln.

We are looking into constructing a large solar dryer, one that logs
could be stacked in and dried at a faster rate and in a controlled
environment. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Randall Mast and Cindy Eby
Mennonite Central Committee (MCC) in Kenya
Sustainable Wood Carving Project

From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Thu Dec 30 10:25:00 1999
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Solar Wood Kiln
In-Reply-To: <199912301407.JAA18468@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <386B7BED.EAE19C35@fox.nstn.ca>

Dear Randal and Cindy

I once designed and built a 6,000 square foot solar collector, to
preheat air for a lumber drying kiln. The solar collector per se was
very low cost, in that we simply installed a double walled poly film
over a "quonset hut" type building that had a ribbed galvanized iron
roof. We had a plenum on one side, and simply sucked air in one side of
the building, over the roof where it was heated, and then out the
plenum, to the lumber drying kiln.

Air distribution strategy is critical to the success of a lumber drying
operation. The lifts of lumber must be stacked in a manner such that
there is positive air flow through them. Most kilns are very poorly
designed in this regard....the "new air" is introduced at one end of a
building, and then has to travel through 4, 5, or 6 lifts of lumber.
This results in excessive drying of the wood at the "inlet end", and
then the need for a reversal system, to change the direction of air
flow. This leads to serious fan inefficiencies, if the fan rotation is
simply reversed.

Fan efficiency is very important, in that the power to drive them is a
significant fraction of total operating cost. Don't make the mistake of
looking only at the "solar collector" portion of the system, thinking
that if you get a good solar collector you can dry wood for
nothing.....it is a surprisingly complex air handling problem, to ensure
that all the wood sees uniform drying conditions.

With your particularily wet wood, you should think in terms of a "mass
and energy balance" to get a perspective on how much air you will have
to move, how much heat you will have to provide, and the minimum drying
rates necessary at various stages in the drying cycle, to prevent kiln
damage to the wood. For example, if you dry wet wood too slowly inthe
early stages, you can get "sticker stain", because the moisture content
remained above a critical level long enough for the "stain bugs" to set
in. You have to become quite familiar with psychrometric charts, to be
able to estimate the air flow and heating requirements necessary to
remove moisture at your desired rate.

The killer in solar collectors is the structure necessary to support
them. If you can find ways to support the collector system on an
existing structure, or if you can put it on the ground, you can save
substantially.

ebymast wrote:
>
> To all who are interested, Dec. 30 1999
>
> We are looking for information on solar drying wood. We were given
> this address from the Intermediate Technology office in Nairobi,
> Kenya.
>
> We are working in Kenya on promoting the use of faster growing trees
> for wood carving. Traditionally the wood carvers here in Kenya, as
> well as much of East Africa, have used slow growing hard woods.

What do the traditional carvers think about using the different wood?

This
> has had a very detrimental effect on the indigenous forests as the
> majority of the trees were cut from the local woodlands. The trees
> that we are working with have a much faster growth rate and can be
> planted on plantations as well as the individual carvers farms. As a
> result of the faster growth rate these species have a higher water
> content and a much slower drying time once cut.

It is usually very important to cut the trees, and saw them to start the
drying process as soon as possible, to prevent wood staining.
>
> What has been happening traditionally is the wood is carved wet then
> let dry which has not been a problem in the slow growth trees. In the
> faster growing trees we have been having some cracking and even some
> mold on the pieces that get exported.

Did they have to carve the harder woods wet, simply because they were
more workable than when dry? With the faster growing, and presumably
softer wood, it may be quite permissable to do all carving after the
wood is dried. Is the wood carved "in the round", or is it sawn into
boards and planks for carving. Basically, the drying time is
proportional to the square of the thickness; thinner sections dry much
more easily.

We know that these woods do
> cure nicely when left to dry longer or are cured in a gas kiln. Both
> of these techniques are cost prohibitive, increased drying time means
> a larger and longer investment in wood in order to let it sit, and
> traditional kiln drying is expensive to operate on a large scale
> (US$100 /cubic meter) plus the cost of transportation to and from the
> kiln.

Sadly, you can't get something for nothing. The end benefit of a
sustainable resource has the cost of inventory, capital, and energy
associated with it.
>
> We are looking into constructing a large solar dryer, one that logs
> could be stacked in and dried at a faster rate and in a controlled
> environment. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Consider de-barking the wood beforehand, to reduce moisture load, and
the effective diameter. Ensure they are stacked in a good open manner,
permitting easy, and uniform flows of the drying air. Make use of
prevailing winds in the area, if possible. Obviously, an exposed hill
would be a better site than would be a sheltered clearing in the forest.
>
> Thanks,
> Randall Mast and Cindy Eby
> Mennonite Central Committee (MCC) in Kenya
> Sustainable Wood Carving Project
>
Hope this is helpful for starters.

Kindest regards,

kevin Chisholm
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From heat-win at cwcom.net Thu Dec 30 11:06:31 1999
From: heat-win at cwcom.net (T J Stubbing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Solar Wood Kiln
In-Reply-To: <199912301407.JAA18468@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <386B863D.4853D6BA@cwcom.net>

Dear All,
Accepting that it's not viable for Kenyan wood carvers to invest in
the dryers I am trying to sell, see <http://www.dryers-airless.mcmail.com>,
I do have a suggestion.
Hot air rises, so I would try to arrange for what Kevin refers to as
'lifts' of lumber to be located in line along the top of a sunny slope
with their open bases around 2 ft above ground level and with the lumber
stacked in alternating criss-cross layers.
There should be a similar around 2 ft high space above the lumber and
below a preferably flat corrugated iron roof which should be added to keep
any rain off.
I would then enclose the sides only of the row of lifts with polythene
sheeting down to ground level leaving the upper space but only the downhill
face of the lower space open.
I would then construct an as airtight as possible 2 ft high and lift
row length wide tunnel of black polythene sheeting running
down the sunny slope and covering as large an area of it as reasonably
practicable, leaving its bottom end open.
During the day the sun would heat the tunnel roof which in turn would
heat the air below it. This would then convect upwards through the
tunnel and through the lifts, warm air drying them before leaving through
the 2 ft high gap below the roof.
At night the black polythene tunnel would radiate heat outwards, cooling
the air in it and reversing the air flow, i.e. drawing it in through the
2 ft high gap below the roof and releasing it through the open end of the
tunnel. Though the 'night' air would be cooler it would still do
some drying.
In other words I would use a simple sloping solar collector to provide
both heat and air movement, the latter without the need for fans.
Try it on a small scale to prove to yourselves that it works, then build
a big one to do the job.
Regards, Good Luck and all the best for the Millennium!
Thomas (Stubbing)
Kevin Chisholm wrote:
Dear Randal and Cindy
I once designed and built a 6,000 square foot solar collector, to
preheat air for a lumber drying kiln. The solar collector per se was
very low cost, in that we simply installed a double walled poly film
over a "quonset hut" type building that had a ribbed galvanized
iron
roof. We had a plenum on one side, and simply sucked air in one side
of
the building, over the roof where it was heated, and then out the
plenum, to the lumber drying kiln.
Air distribution strategy is critical to the success of a lumber drying
operation. The lifts of lumber must be stacked in a manner such that
there is positive air flow through them. Most kilns are very poorly
designed in this regard....the "new air" is introduced at one end of
a
building, and then has to travel through 4, 5, or 6 lifts of lumber.
This results in excessive drying of the wood at the "inlet end", and
then the need for a reversal system, to change the direction of air
flow. This leads to serious fan inefficiencies, if the fan rotation
is
simply reversed.
Fan efficiency is very important, in that the power to drive them is
a
significant fraction of total operating cost. Don't make the mistake
of
looking only at the "solar collector" portion of the system, thinking
that if you get a good solar collector you can dry wood for
nothing.....it is a surprisingly complex air handling problem, to ensure
that all the wood sees uniform drying conditions.
With your particularily wet wood, you should think in terms of a "mass
and energy balance" to get a perspective on how much air you will have
to move, how much heat you will have to provide, and the minimum drying
rates necessary at various stages in the drying cycle, to prevent kiln
damage to the wood. For example, if you dry wet wood too slowly inthe
early stages, you can get "sticker stain", because the moisture content
remained above a critical level long enough for the "stain bugs" to
set
in. You have to become quite familiar with psychrometric charts, to
be
able to estimate the air flow and heating requirements necessary to
remove moisture at your desired rate.
The killer in solar collectors is the structure necessary to support
them. If you can find ways to support the collector system on an
existing structure, or if you can put it on the ground, you can save
substantially.
ebymast wrote:
>
>       To all who are interested,
Dec. 30 1999
>
>       We are looking for information
on solar drying wood. We were given
>       this address from the Intermediate
Technology office in Nairobi,
>       Kenya.
>
>       We are working in Kenya on promoting
the use of faster growing trees
>       for wood carving. Traditionally
the wood carvers here in Kenya, as
>       well as much of East Africa,
have used slow growing hard woods.
What do the traditional carvers think about using the different wood?
This
>       has had a very detrimental effect
on the indigenous forests as the
>       majority of the trees were cut
from the local woodlands. The trees
>       that we are working with have
a much faster growth rate and can be
>       planted on plantations as well
as the individual carvers farms. As a
>       result of the faster growth rate
these species have a higher water
>       content and a much slower drying
time once cut.
It is usually very important to cut the trees, and saw them to start
the
drying process as soon as possible, to prevent wood staining.
>
>       What has been happening traditionally
is the wood is carved wet then
>       let dry which has not been a
problem in the slow growth trees. In the
>       faster growing trees we have
been having some cracking and even some
>       mold on the pieces that get exported.
Did they have to carve the harder woods wet, simply because they were
more workable than when dry? With the faster growing, and presumably
softer wood, it may be quite permissable to do all carving after the
wood is dried. Is the wood carved "in the round", or is it sawn into
boards and planks for carving. Basically, the drying time is
proportional to the square of the thickness; thinner sections dry much
more easily.
We know that these woods do
>       cure nicely when left to dry
longer or are cured in a gas kiln. Both
>       of these techniques are cost
prohibitive, increased drying time means
>       a larger and longer investment
in wood in order to let it sit, and
>       traditional kiln drying is expensive
to operate on a large scale
>       (US$100 /cubic meter) plus the
cost of transportation to and from the
>       kiln.
Sadly, you can't get something for nothing. The end benefit of a
sustainable resource has the cost of inventory, capital, and energy
associated with it.
>
>       We are looking into constructing
a large solar dryer, one that logs
>       could be stacked in and dried
at a faster rate and in a controlled
>       environment. Any advice
would be much appreciated.
Consider de-barking the wood beforehand, to reduce moisture load, and
the effective diameter. Ensure they are stacked in a good open manner,
permitting easy, and uniform flows of the drying air. Make use of
prevailing winds in the area, if possible. Obviously, an exposed hill
would be a better site than would be a sheltered clearing in the forest.
>
>       Thanks,
>       Randall Mast and Cindy Eby
>       Mennonite Central Committee (MCC)
in Kenya
>       Sustainable Wood Carving Project
>
Hope this is helpful for starters.
Kindest regards,
kevin Chisholm
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From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Thu Dec 30 14:33:54 1999
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Solar Wood Kiln
In-Reply-To: <199912301407.JAA18468@solstice.crest.org>
Message-ID: <199912301939.NAA18291@smtp1.mts.net>

Discussion, on-line plans and more:

http://osu.orst.edu/extension/klamath/solarkiln/

Small kiln, animated illlustration, promise of more to come:

http://www.jonathan-guest.co.uk/solar-wood-kiln.htm

Hope these links are helpful. (No personal experience.)

Best of luck with your project,
- Scott Willing

>
> To all who are interested, Dec. 30 1999
>
> We are looking for information on solar drying wood. We were given
> this address from the Intermediate Technology office in Nairobi,
> Kenya.
>
> We are working in Kenya on promoting the use of faster growing trees
> for wood carving. Traditionally the wood carvers here in Kenya, as
> well as much of East Africa, have used slow growing hard woods.
> This has had a very detrimental effect on the indigenous forests as
> the majority of the trees were cut from the local woodlands. The
> trees that we are working with have a much faster growth rate and
> can be planted on plantations as well as the individual carvers
> farms. As a result of the faster growth rate these species have a
> higher water content and a much slower drying time once cut.
>
> What has been happening traditionally is the wood is carved wet then
> let dry which has not been a problem in the slow growth trees. In
> the faster growing trees we have been having some cracking and even
> some mold on the pieces that get exported. We know that these woods
> do cure nicely when left to dry longer or are cured in a gas kiln.
> Both of these techniques are cost prohibitive, increased drying time
> means a larger and longer investment in wood in order to let it sit,
> and traditional kiln drying is expensive to operate on a large scale
> (US$100 /cubic meter) plus the cost of transportation to and from
> the kiln.
>
> We are looking into constructing a large solar dryer, one that logs
> could be stacked in and dried at a faster rate and in a controlled
> environment. Any advice would be much appreciated.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Randall Mast and Cindy Eby
> Mennonite Central Committee (MCC) in Kenya
> Sustainable Wood Carving Project
>
> The Stoves List is Sponsored by
> Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
> Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
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From larcon at sni.net Thu Dec 30 14:51:58 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Solar Wood Kiln
Message-ID: <v01540b04b49154e69c1d@[204.131.233.4]>

To: Randall Mast and Cindy Eby

Yours is a question somewhat off our usual type, but I think a
number of us on the list will be interested in what you learn - so I hope
you will keep us informed. The responses from Kevin Chisholm and T.J.
Stubbing seemed very good to me.

I have never looked at this issue real closely, but have been
interested from afar for more than 20 years. The best technical literature
I have found on solar drying occurs in the journals and publications of the
International Solar Energy Society (ISES). I think that you will find that
their bi-annual conferences will usually have several papers on this
subject (more often for vegetable or tobacco drying than for wood). I
attended the 1995 Harare conference and remember several papers on this.
There should be copies available somewhere in Nairobi.

The value of solar drying for vegetables in developing countries is
mainly one of quality improvement - and achieving a quality acceptable for
export markets. (Good quality involves complicated relationships between
time and temperature.) This might be true for wood drying - but is not as
obvious.

Kevin and T.J. did not use the term "chimney" but that relates to
our stoves list as well. Many of the papers refer to the importance (and
presumably good economics) of building some extra chimney height to the
collector to get a bigger air flow.

I think you will find that a major issue will be on the most
economic solar window material to use. Many apparently suitable
transparent materials only have a one season lifetime. This may even be OK
- but not if the cost is high. Hopefully someone on this list (like Elsen)
will know of suppliers in Nairobi that have good solar materials on hand.
Glass is probably too expensive - but not if you can find scrap.

This also raises the issue of simply letting your wood cure
naturally - perhaps mostly by keeping rain off it. I seem to recall that
Swedes think in terms of a 3 year cycle to do the drying - all stored
outside without a cover (I think). Can you think in such long terms? What
time would be involved?

Lastly, I wonder if any stover knows of any internet list where the
solar dryer topic is regulary discussed? I listen in to a very good
microhydropower list, and one on solar concentrators (for PV and solar
thermal) - but know of none on solar dryers. Anyone have one in mind?

Good luck.

Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Fri Dec 31 09:50:29 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:28 2004
Subject: Reducing Global Warming Guilt
Message-ID: <0.5ae349fa.259e1df7@cs.com>

Dear CRESTERS:

We hear so much about global warming that we feel guilty without being able
to do much. Maybe the enclosed article will help.

I am also attaching the article as an MS Word document.

Yours for an even better century.

Dr. Thomas B. Reed The Biomass Energy Foundation

~~~~~~~~

REDUCING GLOBAL WARMING GUILT
Thomas B. Reed
Golden, CO

Advanced climate thinkers have warned us that Humans may be heating up
Earth's climate by increasing the carbon dioxide content of our atmosphere
while we use up the remaining supplies of petroleum and other fossil fuels.
The world is called upon to reduce CO2 emissions so as not to change our
climate. The advanced thinkers warn that continuing on this path could lead
to melting of the ice caps, a rise in the sea level and a major climate
change. I feel guilty when I drive to the library to read about Global
Warming.

Unfortunately for the climate experts, major climate change is Earth's norm
They find it difficult to separate Human climate change (Anthropogenic) from
those that occur naturally. We had a mini ice age in 1700 and no one is
blaming the Pilgrims.

Let us think what "climate" we would like to preserve. We are urged to
prevent global warming in order to preserve our present climate. Our
Civilization has developed in the 13,000 years since the end of the last ice
age which started 117,000 years ago, and I presume this is the "climate" we
are being urged to keep by reducing our greenhouse emissions.

However, we are overdue for another ice age, and they can come on fast. The
ice covering much of Europe and Canada-US was over 3,000 feet deep 20,000
years ago. So, taking a longer view, our current climate includes 100,000
years of heavy glaciation.

Earth has progressed from much too hot for life, 4 billion years ago; lush
and great for life during the coal and oil ages; but gradually cooling as
more and more carbon was deposited underground as our fossil fuels.
Ultimately this carbon depletion has led to our current cycle of
glaciers/warming. In the 60 Million years before this we had the climate
that permitted the development of mammals, deciduous trees and flowers.

The 1 °F temperature rise this century attributed to Human activity certainly
gives us some responsibility for our climate, but Ours is not the only hand
on the thermostat. So far, the long range prediction of climate is probably
no better than the prediction of the weather next month. The tilt of Earth's
axis, distance from the Sun, Volcanic eruptions, meteorite collisions and
the paths of ocean currents all play a role in determining our climate, and
it has varied by tens of degrees in many centuries. Our current decisions may
(or may not) determine which climate our children and grandchildren will
have. Maybe He put Humans here to get some of the carbon back into
circulation.

There have been noble attempts to limit our consumption of fossil fuels
(President Bush signed the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate
Change in 1992 and the Kyoto Protocol of 1997). These contrast with our
actual practice of using more and more oil with SUVs and trucks becoming our
typical mode of transportation. So we all feel guilty.
No one is in a position to tell whether the climate "experts" are correct,
but they have given us a load of guilt for driving our cars and heating our
homes. The global warming question may be moot, since it is widely predicted
that "cheap oil" will be exhausted in 10-30 years at which point other
renewable energy forms will be developed. Man proposes and God disposes.

However, if you are looking for practical ways to feel virtuous in the 21st
century, consider that the oil we don't waste today can be used by you, your
children and grandchildren to maintain a moderate lifestyle - or even to warm
our huts if the next glacier arrives on schedule.
~~~~~~~~
(Dr. Tom Reed is the president of the Biomass Energy Foundation and a former
Professor at the Colorado School of Mines. He can be reached at 303 278 0558
or Reedtb2 @ cs.com. Two recent articles on Climate appeared in the
Scientific American December 1999 issue, page 100 and the January 2,000
issue, p. 68.) 615 words.
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
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From larcon at sni.net Fri Dec 31 20:22:01 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:29 2004
Subject: Forwarding: new improved charcoal reactor.
Message-ID: <v01540b07b492f4c65c63@[204.131.233.24]>

Stovers: The following is from a new "stoves" member

John: Thank you for this submission, You have answered many questions.
However, several additional questions will come up so I will pose them
right away:

1. At what stage are you in the marketing or testing of this system?

2. Are you suggesting essentially complete combustion of all
off-gases or can you estimate the emissions that will accompany your
process?

3. What is the expected capital cost and the expected cost to operate?

4. Can you tell us more about the individual you are crediting
with this development?

Again, thanks for passing this information on.

Ron

>From: jovick@vogon.capescott.net
>Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:22:05 -0800
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: larcon@sni.net
>Subject: new improved charcoal reactor.
>X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
>
>We are a British Columbia company that has developed and are seeking
>patent protection on a continuous process charcoal reactor.
>Our reactor is 12 ft.square,35 ft,high and has 18 twelve inch retorts
>going through it. Being a continuous process it will convert 120 tons of
>wet fibre into 20 tons of charcoal every 24 hours. Also according to
>figures of the charcoal industry U.S.A., we will get 180 gallons of
>methanol, 42 gallons of acetone,1.320 gallons of soluble tar,180 gallons
>of creosote,and 960 gallons of acetic acid.
>
>We realize of course, that lab analyses are only just that, and theory
>very seldom if ever materialized when applied to actual production
>conditions but these at least give a quantitative ratio. With our
>enclosed vent gas collection system they will be routed into holding
>tanks and the non-condensable gases, (5000 cubic ft. per ton of dry
>wood) will be returned to the burner chamber and rendered carbon dioxide
>neutral as well as pollution free.
>
>As environmental protection laws tighten, and well they should; no new
>burning permits will be issued to foresst companies here in British
>Columbia. Our reasonably small reactors can replace the bee-hive burners
>now in use here.
>
>With precise thermal control instrumenetation and variable speed feed
>motors we can dictate temperatures and exposure time to slow down or
>accelerate the carbonizing process allowing us to pre-determine the
>quality of our end product.
>
>We do not cut down trees to make charcoal; nor should, (NEED), anyone
>else; but rather use what is available such as sawmill wast and shake
>mill fibre, furniture and other remanufacturing shavings and even
>household organis wastes. All are suitable.
>
>Since we have a totally continuous process the following things can be
>achieved.
>
>Excess heat through a series of heat exchangers for offices or shops.
>
>Steam will be produced to run super heated turbines for electricity.
>
>They use only what would normally be considered a nuisance fibre and
>make charcoal: or with very little effort, activated charcoal as well.
>
>The designer of this innovative process has hands on experience with
>similar continuous process charcoal reactors that ran here in B.C. 40
>years ago. What he has done is remove all the problems of the old, added
>the latest in control electronics, and come up with the best, most
>efficient reactor available anywhere.
>
>We have in B.C. some vast forested areas that have been killed by an
>Asian beetle infestation. We can make a slightly smaller machine that
>will fit on a lowbed truck and move it into the infested areas and turn
>this destruction into charcoal on site, rather that transport dead "bug"
>trees to sawmills risking the spreading to healthy new areas.
>
>Our pilot is scheduled for building at the start of the new year with a
>completion date of early April. We would very much like to join your
>stove list, thanks for the suggestion.
>
>Please feel free to pass our information around to interested parties,
>and if you require more just call.
>
>
>John Flottvik
>
>J.F. Ventures Ltd.
>Box 129 Coal Harbour, B.C.
>V0N 1K0 CANADA
>
>Phone: (250)949-9795
>Fax: (250)949-9722
>E.Mail: jovick@capescott.net
>
>P.S. I'm new to computers and the e-mail route so please bare with me.

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

December 1999 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive