February 1999 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From mheat at mha-net.org Mon Feb 1 10:10:33 1999
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: How to meter solid fuel burners
Message-ID: <4.1.19990201100732.00acfa70@mha-net.org>

One method to monitor the wood consumption is to give the operators a scale
and have them record the weights (and perhaps dates and times) of all fuel
loads. Alternatively, they could be given a measured supply of fuel
(firewood ?)that is monitored at intervals. Heat output is difficult to
measure - for efficiency measurements you would need to know the fuel
weights in any case.
In order to know the energy content of the fuel, you would need to know
species and/or density, and moisture content.

Best.........Norbert Senf

At 09:39 AM 01/02/99 +1300, Albrecht Stoecklein wrote:
>Dear discussion group member,
>
>We are currently conducting a Household Energy End-Use Project. The
>investigation requires metering all major household energy end uses in
>several hundred houses.
>
>I am interested in any simple cost-effective methods to monitor the
>energy consumption and/or output of solid fuel burners (open fireplaces,
>enclosed fireboxes, etc.)
>
>Thanks for your help
>
>Albrecht
>
>Albrecht Stoecklein (MSc)
>Building Research Association of New Zealand (BRANZ)
>Private Bag 50908, Judgeford, Porirua
>New Zealand
>Tel: ++64-4-235-7600 Fax: ++64-4-2356070
>e-mail: branzaas@branz.org.nz homepage: http://www.branz.org.nz
>
>Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>Stoves Webpage
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam)
Masonry Stove Builders
RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092

Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From mheat at mha-net.org Mon Feb 1 10:39:35 1999
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Refractories and Insulation
In-Reply-To: <199901260947_MC2-680F-880D@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19990201100705.009fcf00@mha-net.org>

At 09:47 AM 26/01/99 -0500, Tom Reed wrote:
(snip)
>
>1) Our terminology is too loose. The word "Refractory" means that the
>material will stand up to high temperature, and usually means a ceramic.
>There are two categories of refractory. Castable refractories and fire
>bricks. They are physically strong, but not very good insulators.
>
>2) The word "Insulation" means the thermal conductivity is very low.
>Fibrous refractories in the form of blanket, board and riser sleeves. (snip)

>So for successful operation, insulate and rigidize. For mechanical abuse,
>add bricks or castable.

One might also mention an intermediate category between the above two:
insulating castable refractories (there are also insulating firebricks).
Typical mixes use an insulating refractory aggregate such as vermiculite
and a refractory binder such as clay, sodium silicate, or calcium aluminate
cement. You can trade off the mechanical/insulating properties by varying
the proportion of binder and by adding some denser aggregates.

My spec sheet for A.P. Green "Castable Insulation No. 22" gives the
following properties, for example:

Conductivity at 1600F: 1.89 BTU/sq.ft./hr/deg F/ inch
Cold Crushing strength: (heated at 1500 F) and then cooled: 500 -650 psi

"CA-2004", which is a high strength, coarse grog 2800 F castable, has the
following properties:

Conductivity at 2000 F: 3.89
Cold crushing strength (heated to 2500 F and then cooled): 2900 psi

Best...........Norbert
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam)
Masonry Stove Builders
RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092

From larcon at sni.net Mon Feb 1 20:48:05 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: forwarding: Request for clean charcoaling assistance
Message-ID: <v01540b01b2db873aa89f@[204.131.233.3]>

Stovers: We have this following request for assistance from Claudio
Sbaraglia <md2506@mclink.it> concerning large scale charcoal production.
He has transferred to Alex' web site a photograph of a 10 foot diameter
hemi-spherical brick kiln.

Alex English, in acknowledging the photo in a recent message to
Claudio and myself, said:

>If we knew the wood moisture content and the rate of charcoal
>production, we might be able to suggest a chimney size for flaring.
>It would be highly speculative, but ultimately it may resemble what
>Elsen has done with his sawdust carbonizer.

(Larson): So Claudio, I hope you can give the list answers to the
several questions above. Another approach is a top lit up-draft version,
but again with a good sized chimney - with both requiring fairly dry input
material.

Stovers: Any other suggestions for Claudio? The remainder is the
original request from Claudio.

>We are interested to produce wood charcoal in the way that is not
>dangerous for nature.
>The kilns to produce charcoal are traditionals (brick) like attached photo.
>Do you know some another better?.
>Anyway we'll use wood wasted. But I need to know the emissions.
<snip>
>Thank you for your help
>
>Claudio
>

From elk at net2000ke.com Tue Feb 2 00:25:48 1999
From: elk at net2000ke.com (Elsen Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Clean Charcoaling
Message-ID: <199902020528.IAA05552@net2000ke.com>

Claudio Sbaraglia's query through Ronal on clean charcoaling is important I feel. More work should be done with an aim to developing methods for flaring the volatile gaseous emissions. There's little doubt in my mind that this is possible and that benefit could outweigh costs.Requirements1) a chimney or chamber of some sort.2) resultant flue vacuum- kiln operation methods will change.3) wood must be dry- probably below 15% moisture.The costs?1) possible major alterations to existing kiln designs and how they are operated.2) added construction costs and possible higher maintenance (heat from flaring).3) time effort and possibly energy involved in pre-drying wood.The benefits?1) reduction in greenhouse gasses. 2) reduction in noxious pollutants.3) shorter and probably more controlled (efficient? better conversion?) pyrolysis period.Though I'm working on carbonising sawdust, I am not a commercial charcoaler. There are list members with specific experience that could comment further. I understand that bone-dry wood is not favored for charcoaling with the earthen-pile method here in Kenya- greener wood is required to moderate the rate of pyrolysis in order to avoid complete combustion. This is a problem, as charcoalers are required to cut living vegetation for their raw material, ignoring dead & dry wood........elk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Elsen L. Karstad , P.O. Box 24371 Nairobi Kenyaelk@net2000ke.com tel/fax (+ 254 2) 884437

From mheat at mha-net.org Tue Feb 2 07:28:37 1999
From: mheat at mha-net.org (Norbert Senf)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: How to meter solid fuel burners
In-Reply-To: <0D94E49D52E0D01181840000F8040B974281A8@www.branz.org.nz>
Message-ID: <4.1.19990202033451.009709e0@mha-net.org>

At 12:54 PM 02/02/99 +1300, you wrote:
>Dear Norbert,
>
>thanks very much for your suggestion.
>
>We are currently trialing the following method. We are measuring the
>temperature of the flue pipe. This gives us -in addition to on/off
>times- some indication of the profile of temperature and heat output of
>the burner during the time it was on. We are now trying to find out how
>valid this assumption is (time lag between flue heat up and heat output
>into the room, how does the surface temperature relate to the heat
>output in the room (it effectively must be a combination of a linear
>relation for convective heat transfer and a T^4 for the radiation, but
>then we would have to take some sort of averaged surface temperature of
>the whole heater which is exposed to the room etc.))
>
>We currently ask the users to keep log books of their fuel consumption
>(we record in units of baskets, kindlings etc. It seems that weight may
>lead to wrong conclusions if timber is wet etc.) and use this data to
>calibrate the measured flue pipe temperatures with the energy use. We
>also include some assumptions concerning the efficiency of the heaters.
>We had initially done efficiency tests of the heaters, but the
>efficiencies varied so widely during each burn that we decided that we
>would not gain a lot through the extra effort.
>
>Now we are trying to find out whether this method is feasible? Or are
>the other uncertainties to large to infer anything about the profile of
>energy output during the burn?

Hello Albrecht:

I believe that the direct measurement of heat output to the room would be
reasonably valid if you can get a good measure of surface temperatures. You
could do that with a relatively inexpensive point-and-shoot infrared
thermometer. You might divide the heater surface into a number of evenly
spaced areas (say 5 to 10) and take readings averaged over those areas
every 15 minutes. You could make some symmetry assumptions, ie., only to
the left or right half of the heater.

In terms of relating stack temperature to output, you would probably have
to know something about the excess air ratio (O2 content of stack gas),
because you could, for example, have a high burn rate yet have high
dilution, resulting in lowered stack temps.

Best............Norbert
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam)
Masonry Stove Builders
RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092

From heat-win at cwcom.net Tue Feb 2 11:24:04 1999
From: heat-win at cwcom.net (T J Stubbing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Clean Charcoaling
Message-ID: <199902021624.LAA19295@solstice.crest.org>

--------------5363425D6C89AF1984DB8752
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Stovers, Elk and Claudio,

In his message of 2nd February Elk wrote:

"Claudio Sbaraglia's query through Ronal on clean charcoaling
is important I feel. More work should be done with an aim to
developing methods for flaring the volatile gaseous
emissions. There's little doubt in my mind that this is
possible and that benefit could outweigh costs."

A UK forestry entrepreneur has now been given a small grant towards a
collaborative 'Enhancement of Wood Fuels' feasibility study involving
the fast and energy efficient airless drying of split 'green' logs,
which sterilises them and converts them into a clean-burning fuel, with
the already tested option of raising the temperature of the small and
inexpensive machine's recirculating superheated steam atmosphere when
drying is complete so as to initiate anaerobic pyrolysis.

In a total of six hours we have thus dried logs and converted them into
barbecue charcoal while emitting around 80% of the wood's energy as
smoke! What we plan to do during the feasibility study is ignite the
smoke and show that the combustion gases can not only operate the
process but in addition dry around six times as much wood as is
converted to charcoal so that both it and the extra dried wood can be
sold.

More information about our patented airless drying technology can be
found at
<<http://www.dryers-airless.mcmail.com/>http://www.dryers-airless.mcmail.com>.

Regards,

Thomas J Stubbing

--------------5363425D6C89AF1984DB8752
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Stovers, Elk and Claudio,

In his message of 2nd February Elk wrote:
>
> "Claudio Sbaraglia's query through Ronal on clean charcoaling is important I
> feel. More work should be done with an aim to developing methods for flaring
> the volatile gaseous emissions. There's little doubt in my mind that this
> is possible and that benefit could outweigh costs."

A UK forestry entrepreneur has now been given a small grant towards a
collaborative 'Enhancement of Wood Fuels' feasibility study involving the fast
and energy efficient airless drying of split 'green' logs, which sterilises
them and converts them into a clean-burning fuel, with the already tested
option of raising the temperature of the small and inexpensive machine's
recirculating superheated steam atmosphere when drying is complete so as to
initiate anaerobic pyrolysis.

In a total of six hours we have thus dried logs and converted them into
barbecue charcoal while emitting around 80% of the wood's energy as smoke!
What we plan to do during the feasibility study is ignite the smoke and show
that the combustion gases can not only operate the process but in addition dry
around six times as much wood as is converted to charcoal so that both it and
the extra dried wood can be sold.

More information about our patented airless drying technology can be found at
<<http://www.dryers-airless.mcmail.com>http://www.dryers-airless.mcmail.com>.

Regards,

Thomas J Stubbing --------------5363425D6C89AF1984DB8752--
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Wed Feb 3 01:36:19 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: forwarding: Request for clean charcoaling assistance
Message-ID: <v01540b00b2dd915349ca@[204.131.233.48]>

In a message yesterday, I said:

> (Larson): So Claudio, I hope you can give the list answers to the
>several questions above. Another approach is a top lit up-draft version,
>but again with a good sized chimney - with both requiring fairly dry input
>material.

And (almost in passing), Claudio replied privately:

>1) I dont'know exactly the wood moisture content but it's very dry.

>2) every brick kiln produce about 5.000 kg

>Thank you for your help

>Claudio

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Wed Feb 3 01:36:42 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Reintroduction of Gregory Brown
Message-ID: <v01540b01b2dd9a866f3f@[204.131.233.48]>

Stovers:
Some of you will remember some earlier contributions on charcoaling
from Gregory. The following brings us up to date a little.

Gregory: I apologize for delay in adding your name and responding. I lost
track of your message (which came in a few weks back).

Andrew Heggie - Please note reference to your work below.

Ron

>I would like to join your newsgroup (again formerly Greg Brown /
>ofb-inc.@ix.netcom.com) under my new address : ofbinc@bellsouth.net
>I am still making charcoal (using a ring kiln) here in south Florida. I
>developed and tested a flaring device, with mixed results, best was 50%
>reduction in smoke. Redesigned a new prototype afterburner for testing
>in mid-February. I want to get in touch especially with the man (ajh) in
>England who has been working on the ring kiln for years.Best regards

>Greg Brown (954 ) 922-7461FAX
> ofbinc@bellsouth.net

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From "J. C. Flores" at alunos.ufv.br Wed Feb 3 06:05:28 1999
From: "J. C. Flores" at alunos.ufv.br (J. C. Flores)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: How to meter solid fuel burners
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990201100732.00acfa70@mha-net.org>
Message-ID: <36B84687.18B0@alunos.ufv.br>

Dear Stover.

I'm in the list for a long time, but only like a reader. My name is Juan
Carlos Flores, and I'm in Brazil making my master degree. In my theses
project, I'm working with the firewood consumption in a comunity near to
the University. In october I started with my work, and I began measuring
the consumption of firewwod for cooking. The way I made was the
following. I made a survey in the comunnity, asking about the
consumption of firewood, and weighting the quantity of firewood that the
woman said she used in a normal day. By this way, I could find a very
interesting dates about the consumption.

I divided the consuption in the rural area and the urban area, and I am
trying to find a different in the quantity. I asked about the place that
they use to pick up the firewood, waht part of the tree thay are using,
and others question about the supply of firewood.

I like to have some exchange with the people in this list.

Sinceresly

Juan Carlos Flores

Norbert Senf wrote:
>
> One method to monitor the wood consumption is to give the operators a scale
> and have them record the weights (and perhaps dates and times) of all fuel
> loads. Alternatively, they could be given a measured supply of fuel
> (firewood ?)that is monitored at intervals. Heat output is difficult to
> measure - for efficiency measurements you would need to know the fuel
> weights in any case.
> In order to know the energy content of the fuel, you would need to know
> species and/or density, and moisture content.
>
> Best.........Norbert Senf
>
> At 09:39 AM 01/02/99 +1300, Albrecht Stoecklein wrote:
> >Dear discussion group member,
> >
> >We are currently conducting a Household Energy End-Use Project. The
> >investigation requires metering all major household energy end uses in
> >several hundred houses.
> >
> >I am interested in any simple cost-effective methods to monitor the
> >energy consumption and/or output of solid fuel burners (open fireplaces,
> >enclosed fireboxes, etc.)
> >
> >Thanks for your help
> >
> >Albrecht
> >
> >Albrecht Stoecklein (MSc)
> >Building Research Association of New Zealand (BRANZ)
> >Private Bag 50908, Judgeford, Porirua
> >New Zealand
> >Tel: ++64-4-235-7600 Fax: ++64-4-2356070
> >e-mail: branzaas@branz.org.nz homepage: http://www.branz.org.nz
> >
> >Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> >Stoves Webpage
> >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam)
> Masonry Stove Builders
> RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb
> Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
> ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
>
>
>
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From karve at wmi.co.in Wed Feb 3 23:02:16 1999
From: karve at wmi.co.in (karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: How to meter solid fuel burners
In-Reply-To: <0D94E49D52E0D01181840000F8040B974281AE@www.branz.org.nz>
Message-ID: <30E6F0B1.BD524B46@wmi.co.in>

Dear Mr. Stoecklein,
Your approach sounds logical. But, I wish to point out the following.
1. Units of baskets, kindlings, etc. are nothing but primitive units of
weight and these too will be affected by the moisture content as well as
the type and size of fuel wood.
2. The variation in heater efficiency during a burn is an important
factor, especially if your ultimate aim is to reduce the fuel
consumption (i.e., to optimise the heater efficiency). It can provide an
insight into what is actually happening in the fuel chamber with time.
If you are doing time series of heat output, might as well try to do
time series of efficiency too. I have worked on design improvement of a
nonreplenishable stove (the stove can be stoked up only once at the
beginning of the operation, no more fuel can be added during operation),
and I found the study of variation in efficiency very useful. I kept
track of the rate of fuel consumption by actually weighing the stove
every 15 minutes or so during the operation. Is something like this
possible with your heater?
3. Come to think of it, I am really curious to know why should there be
'wide' variations in efficiency during a burn?

Regards,
Priyadarshini Karve.
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Thu Feb 4 10:44:49 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: How to meter solid fuel burners
Message-ID: <v01540b00b2de27bc6282@[204.131.233.41]>

Juan Carlos:

This list would find your data quite useful. Please send us as
much as possible. It will be more helpful, if you could also describe the
stoves being used, the types of food being cooked, the range of fuel-types
(including conventional liquid and gaseous fuels), the amount of smoke, any
health impacts suspected or documented, etc.
Our list would also be interested in the amount of charcoal being
produced and used for cooking and for your metals-processing industries.
Thank you for this offer. I am sure that our list experts on this
topic will find it much easier to respond to your data this way.

Regards Ron

>Dear Stover.
>
>I'm in the list for a long time, but only like a reader. My name is Juan
>Carlos Flores, and I'm in Brazil making my master degree. In my theses
>project, I'm working with the firewood consumption in a comunity near to
>the University. In october I started with my work, and I began measuring
>the consumption of firewwod for cooking. The way I made was the
>following. I made a survey in the comunnity, asking about the
>consumption of firewood, and weighting the quantity of firewood that the
>woman said she used in a normal day. By this way, I could find a very
>interesting dates about the consumption.
>
>I divided the consuption in the rural area and the urban area, and I am
>trying to find a different in the quantity. I asked about the place that
>they use to pick up the firewood, waht part of the tree thay are using,
>and others question about the supply of firewood.
>
>I like to have some exchange with the people in this list.
>
>
>Sinceresly
>
>
>Juan Carlos Flores
>
>Norbert Senf wrote:
>>
>> One method to monitor the wood consumption is to give the operators a scale
>> and have them record the weights (and perhaps dates and times) of all fuel
>> loads. Alternatively, they could be given a measured supply of fuel
>> (firewood ?)that is monitored at intervals. Heat output is difficult to
>> measure - for efficiency measurements you would need to know the fuel
>> weights in any case.
>> In order to know the energy content of the fuel, you would need to know
>> species and/or density, and moisture content.
>>
>> Best.........Norbert Senf
>>
>> At 09:39 AM 01/02/99 +1300, Albrecht Stoecklein wrote:
>> >Dear discussion group member,
>> >
>> >We are currently conducting a Household Energy End-Use Project. The
>> >investigation requires metering all major household energy end uses in
>> >several hundred houses.
>> >
>> >I am interested in any simple cost-effective methods to monitor the
>> >energy consumption and/or output of solid fuel burners (open fireplaces,
>> >enclosed fireboxes, etc.)
>> >
>> >Thanks for your help
>> >
>> >Albrecht
>> >
>> >Albrecht Stoecklein (MSc)
>> >Building Research Association of New Zealand (BRANZ)
>> >Private Bag 50908, Judgeford, Porirua
>> >New Zealand
>> >Tel: ++64-4-235-7600 Fax: ++64-4-2356070
>> >e-mail: branzaas@branz.org.nz homepage: http://www.branz.org.nz
>> >
>> >Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>> >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>> >Stoves Webpage
>> >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>> >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>> >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>> Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam)
>> Masonry Stove Builders
>> RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb
>> Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
>> ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>> Stoves Webpage
>> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>Stoves Webpage
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From karve at wmi.co.in Sat Feb 6 22:40:23 1999
From: karve at wmi.co.in (karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: How to meter solid fuel burners
In-Reply-To: <0D94E49D52E0D01181840000F8040B974281BE@www.branz.org.nz>
Message-ID: <30E6E1FA.97AF113F@wmi.co.in>

Dear Mr. Stoecklein,
I appreciate your difficulty in quantifying energy input! In any case,
considering your objective, the method you are using at present seems
reasonable. Because you are comparing a variety of heating appliances, there
are bound to be uncertainties in any case. However, this particular area of
research is such that any scientifically collected field data, however
uncertain, would prove extremely useful. I think you are quite right in
trying to extract meaningful information without disturbing the 'real
everyday behaviour'. As has been pointed out many times in this discussion
group, the 'operating practices' too play a major role in deciding the
efficiency of such devices under field conditions. Even a primitive
three-stone-stove can yield high efficiency if used properly. It would be
wonderful if your study could quantify the contribution of 'everyday
behaviour' to energy efficiency in the case of solid fuel heaters. Perhaps
you could have some of the heaters also operated following all the proper
and scientific practices, and compare the energy outputs as against those in
the case of the users' usual methods.
One more comment: If the only cause for wide variations in the heater
efficiencies is the addition of new batch of fuel during operation, that is
normal. You can safely ignore these variations and assume the average
efficiency values for the heaters.
With regards,
Priyadarshini Karve.

Albrecht Stoecklein wrote:

> Dear Mr. Karve,
>
> thank you for your comments concerning our method. As part of this
> project we are going to monitor approximately 400 houses nationwide for
> between 6 and 12 months each (I estimate that about 200 of them will
> have solid fuel heaters). One of the objectives is to determine the
> "energy service", i.e. room temperatures in this case, which different
> heating appliances deliver, and to study at what cost (energy and $).
> ...and of course our budget is only a fraction from what similar studies
> in the US and Europe have available. The study includes metering
> electricity end use (all household appliances), reticulated gas, LPG,
> temperatures and RH in the sample houses. Additionally we are collecting
> extensive socio/demographic data in surveys for each of the houses. We
> have to do all that with the least amount of intrusion to the occupants,
> and -because we are interested in "real everyday behaviour'- we can't
> give them a controlled fuel amount/type etc. We have to try to capture
> whatever the occupants do.
>
> Concerning your comments:
> 1. You are certainly right about the basket units and the uncertainties
> of this method. I guess what we are trying to do is to have a ballanced
> approach to the detail of data collection. In that sense it would not be
> reasonable to measure the amount of fuel to a say 5% accuracy, if
> moisture content, fuel type mixture (some people burn large amounts of
> paper and cardboard!), heater efficiency, heater output measurement
> uncertainties etc. have such large errors that the increased effort in
> capturing the fuel amount is not warranted. But this is exactly one of
> the issues where I appreciate comments from other researchers who have
> dealt with these systems. How high would you estimate to be the decrease
> in accurace by using the volume instead of the weight? We chose volume
> because it puts less effort on the occupants and we do a reference
> weighting of the unit they are using, i.e. we weigh one of their
> "average" baskets of wood and kindlings. But we do that only once and
> from then on we rely on the "basket" units, convert them into weight and
> then using literature values into calorific energy.
>
> 2. We are currently more concerned with a stock take of the actual
> performance of the appliances (incl heaters) and less with the potential
> of technical improvements. This will be a task following on from the
> current project and of course we will get some insite by comparing
> differnet heater types in or sample houses. We had experts from the NZ
> Coal Research Institut (CRI) to conduct heater efficency measurements at
> each of the heaters which we investigated in the pilot study. According
> to them the efficiencies vary during each burn significantly (we usually
> ran the heaters for about 1 to 2 hours and they conducted a flue gas
> analysis during that time). Because we want to investigate heaters in
> situ which are run "as usual" by the occupants it is not possible to do
> real-time weighing of the heater. That's why we are trying to use the
> temperature measurements.
>
> 3. According to the results from the CRI people the efficiency depended
> on things like the airflow, position of the wood in the stove, state of
> burn of the wood (surface burn versus glowing etc.), even the wind speed
> outside. Particularly everytime when the stack of wood was rearranged in
> the heater there was a sharp change in heater efficiency because of
> exposure of unburnt surfaces and air flow increase. We did not try to
> investigate this any further because we believed that we won't be able
> to control or even measure these processes anyway in the large number of
> houses with the available budget constraints.
>
> One of the reasons of my enquiry is to either find out of other more
> accurate low cost methods and -in case there are none- to get a
> "feeling" on how inaccurate we actually are. In that sense I really
> appreciate your comments. Thanks again.
>
> Regards
>
> Albrecht
>
>

From karve at wmi.co.in Mon Feb 8 02:00:45 1999
From: karve at wmi.co.in (karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: How to meter solid fuel burners
In-Reply-To: <0D94E49D52E0D01181840000F8040B974281C4@www.branz.org.nz>
Message-ID: <30E6D92F.262AD399@wmi.co.in>

Dear Mr. Stoecklein,
Please do keep in touch. I am sure several of us stovers besides myself
(especially those who are engaged in popularisation of energy efficient
devices and have to deal with 'real life behaviour'!) would be most
interested in the results of your study.
Wish you the best.
With regards,
Priyadarshini Karve.

Albrecht Stoecklein wrote:

> Dear Mr. Karve,
>
> I think it would be an excellent idea to do a properly controlled
> efficiency test on the heaters in addition to the 'real life behaviour".
> I believe that we will get some idea of that by looking at the room
> temperatures achieved when burning the amount of wood as recorded in the
> log books. But of course there are all sorts of other things to consider
> as well (room insulation, other heat sources, external temperatures
> etc.) So there is a lot of work to be done.
>
> Thank you very much for your very useful comments. I will let you know
> when we have some more substantial results from out solid fuel logging.
>
> Regards
>
> Albrecht Stoecklein
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: karve [mailto:karve@wmi.co.in]
> Sent: Monday, 1 January 1996 08:18
> To: Albrecht Stoecklein; stoves list
> Subject: Re: How to meter solid fuel burners
>
> Dear Mr. Stoecklein,
> I appreciate your difficulty in quantifying energy input! In any
> case,
> considering your objective, the method you are using at present seems
> reasonable. Because you are comparing a variety of heating appliances,
> there
> are bound to be uncertainties in any case. However, this particular area
> of
> research is such that any scientifically collected field data, however
> uncertain, would prove extremely useful. I think you are quite right in
> trying to extract meaningful information without disturbing the 'real
> everyday behaviour'. As has been pointed out many times in this
> discussion
> group, the 'operating practices' too play a major role in deciding the
> efficiency of such devices under field conditions. Even a primitive
> three-stone-stove can yield high efficiency if used properly. It would
> be
> wonderful if your study could quantify the contribution of 'everyday
> behaviour' to energy efficiency in the case of solid fuel heaters.
> Perhaps
> you could have some of the heaters also operated following all the
> proper
> and scientific practices, and compare the energy outputs as against
> those in
> the case of the users' usual methods.
> One more comment: If the only cause for wide variations in the
> heater
> efficiencies is the addition of new batch of fuel during operation, that
> is
> normal. You can safely ignore these variations and assume the average
> efficiency values for the heaters.
> With regards,
> Priyadarshini Karve.
>
> Albrecht Stoecklein wrote:
>
> > Dear Mr. Karve,
> >
> > thank you for your comments concerning our method. As part of this
> > project we are going to monitor approximately 400 houses nationwide
> for
> > between 6 and 12 months each (I estimate that about 200 of them will
> > have solid fuel heaters). One of the objectives is to determine the
> > "energy service", i.e. room temperatures in this case, which different
> > heating appliances deliver, and to study at what cost (energy and $).
> > ...and of course our budget is only a fraction from what similar
> studies
> > in the US and Europe have available. The study includes metering
> > electricity end use (all household appliances), reticulated gas, LPG,
> > temperatures and RH in the sample houses. Additionally we are
> collecting
> > extensive socio/demographic data in surveys for each of the houses. We
> > have to do all that with the least amount of intrusion to the
> occupants,
> > and -because we are interested in "real everyday behaviour'- we can't
> > give them a controlled fuel amount/type etc. We have to try to capture
> > whatever the occupants do.
> >
> > Concerning your comments:
> > 1. You are certainly right about the basket units and the
> uncertainties
> > of this method. I guess what we are trying to do is to have a
> ballanced
> > approach to the detail of data collection. In that sense it would not
> be
> > reasonable to measure the amount of fuel to a say 5% accuracy, if
> > moisture content, fuel type mixture (some people burn large amounts of
> > paper and cardboard!), heater efficiency, heater output measurement
> > uncertainties etc. have such large errors that the increased effort in
> > capturing the fuel amount is not warranted. But this is exactly one of
> > the issues where I appreciate comments from other researchers who have
> > dealt with these systems. How high would you estimate to be the
> decrease
> > in accurace by using the volume instead of the weight? We chose volume
> > because it puts less effort on the occupants and we do a reference
> > weighting of the unit they are using, i.e. we weigh one of their
> > "average" baskets of wood and kindlings. But we do that only once and
> > from then on we rely on the "basket" units, convert them into weight
> and
> > then using literature values into calorific energy.
> >
> > 2. We are currently more concerned with a stock take of the actual
> > performance of the appliances (incl heaters) and less with the
> potential
> > of technical improvements. This will be a task following on from the
> > current project and of course we will get some insite by comparing
> > differnet heater types in or sample houses. We had experts from the NZ
> > Coal Research Institut (CRI) to conduct heater efficency measurements
> at
> > each of the heaters which we investigated in the pilot study.
> According
> > to them the efficiencies vary during each burn significantly (we
> usually
> > ran the heaters for about 1 to 2 hours and they conducted a flue gas
> > analysis during that time). Because we want to investigate heaters in
> > situ which are run "as usual" by the occupants it is not possible to
> do
> > real-time weighing of the heater. That's why we are trying to use the
> > temperature measurements.
> >
> > 3. According to the results from the CRI people the efficiency
> depended
> > on things like the airflow, position of the wood in the stove, state
> of
> > burn of the wood (surface burn versus glowing etc.), even the wind
> speed
> > outside. Particularly everytime when the stack of wood was rearranged
> in
> > the heater there was a sharp change in heater efficiency because of
> > exposure of unburnt surfaces and air flow increase. We did not try to
> > investigate this any further because we believed that we won't be able
> > to control or even measure these processes anyway in the large number
> of
> > houses with the available budget constraints.
> >
> > One of the reasons of my enquiry is to either find out of other more
> > accurate low cost methods and -in case there are none- to get a
> > "feeling" on how inaccurate we actually are. In that sense I really
> > appreciate your comments. Thanks again.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Albrecht
> >
> >

From elk at net2000ke.com Wed Feb 10 00:16:56 1999
From: elk at net2000ke.com (Elsen Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Update- Carbonising Sawdust.
Message-ID: <199902100519.IAA09266@net2000ke.com>

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Wed Feb 10 07:04:12 1999
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Woodcoal)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Update- Carbonising Sawdust.
Message-ID: <01be54ec$2c6b5800$LocalHost@22>

Dear Elsen,
>Similarly, fired clay or ceramic, but how do you perforate such material
with thousands 1/8 inch holes and suspend it in order to dust the volatile
gasses into the chimney/combustion chamber?<
The large boiler-houses use the closed grid-iron (<FONT color=#000000
face="Times New Roman" size=2>fire-bars)<FONT color=#000000
face="Times New Roman" size=2>. The plates should be pulled by a ladder against
each other. The top plate closes a part bottom, leaving a crack on a vertical.
The fine particles do not fail, and the gas passes. I give figure in *.bmp.

Sincerely Yury
Yudkevitch(Russia)
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">

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From donaldp at marick.u-net.com Wed Feb 10 07:06:09 1999
From: donaldp at marick.u-net.com (donaldp@marick.u-net.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Alternative Energy
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990210114532.0079e6b0@mail.u-net.com>

Marick Gasification Ltd From : Dr. Donald C Patrick
3 Farndale Close Date : 09 February 1999
Whittle Hall Ref. DCP /
Great Sankey
WARRINGTON WA5 3FX E-mail: donaldp@marick.u-net.com
Cheshire Tel. 01925 - 71. 11 55
ENGLAND FAX : 01925 - 71. 11 55

BioGas Engines. Renewable Energy CHP. Biomass Gasification.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To:.
Organisation : __

Fax Number Tel.
Number of Pages : E-mail:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Dear Colleagues,
We specialise in the design and manufacture of woody Biomass Gasification
Plant and Equipment to produce Alternative Gas and Electricity, with
combined heating.
Our Plants and engines conform to European safety & emission requirements.

Our range of gasification plants is from 30 KwElectricity up to 350
KwElectricity and is complete with all electric's, control panels and
engine management systems.
The Air / Gas mixing and engine Injection system is of my own design.
Standard diesel engines with modifications are convert to Spark Ignition
and used to run off the produced wood gas.

Fuel.
We have gasified hard and softwood, Agricultural woods i.e. bark, twigs,
stalks etc. Furniture woods, Cardboard, Hardboard, Peanuts shells, Walnut
shells, Sugar cane trash, MDF, Fibreboard, Coconut shells, Wooden
pallets. Coppice willow. Birch/beech

Currently we are due to install a 150 Kw Electric gasification plant with
combined heat recovery in a Pallet manufacturing works.
The heat recovery is from the engine, which will be used in a
dehumidification chamber to reduce the moisture content in 1000 pallets per
loading.
We are about to Commercialise our small scale wood gasification plants.
Should U have interests in small scale gasification please e-mail your full
address tel and fax. Number.

Looking forward to hearing from you and thanking you.

Yours sincerely, Please confirm receipt of
E-mail or Fax
Dr. Donald C. Patrick Technical Director

From costaeec at kcnet.com Wed Feb 10 10:14:19 1999
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (Jim Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Update- Carbonising Sawdust.
Message-ID: <003101be550e$148de820$c69966ce@default>

We have briquetters of all types & sizes.
The extrusion type, which you refered to, is lower priced, but produces lower
quality briquettes and has very high maintenance. The reciprocating piston type
(punch & die) is pricey, but makes an extremely high density briquette &
is far cheaper in long run. Lowest price is the hydraulic extrusion type, but
they make a very low density product.

Environmental Engineering Corp.
816-452-3500 Fax-452-6663

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
-----Original Message-----From:
Elsen Karstad <<A
href="mailto:elk@net2000ke.com">elk@net2000ke.com>To: <A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org>Date:
Tuesday, February 09, 1999 10:22 PMSubject: Update-
Carbonising Sawdust.
Stovers;I've
been hiding in a pile of sawdust lately running repeated trials of the 5-bed
downdraft carboniser. It's working well but has posed the following problems
for resolution:1) The perforated sheet metal carbonising kiln beds
scale warp and basically burn up too quickly. I've tried thicker gauge mild
steel ,and that helps, but simply extends the life of the metal by a factor
of it's thickness- went from 1 mm to 1.5 mm. I've also tried slots VS
holes... holes are better- the slots opened up allowing carbon powder to
escape under the kiln & up the chimney as the sheet buckled. I'm now
making a kiln base using 5 longitudinal strips of angle-iron with a 1/8 inch
gap to allow the volatiles through. I realise that stainless steel would
probably resolve my problem, but it's very expensive. Similarly, fired clay
or ceramic, but how do you perforate such material with thousands 1/8 inch
holes and suspend it in order to dust the volatile gasses into the
chimney/combustion chamber?2) The extruder. I may have the most
appropriate design, but I suspect not. I have the feeling that I'm
re-inventing something that already exists by scaling up a regular meat
mincer by a factor of six. I'm sure that I should get more than the current
2 kg briquettes per minute out of my locally made machine. It's run by a 3
hp motor with a double reduction belt drive to 100 rpm screw speed. I there
are any list members that know where I can source small brick-making
extruders, please let me know. I've heard small units exist- they use a
geared motor to drive a screw that extrudes clay which is cut into bricks
for subsequent firing. Everything I've found is HUGE - like, 90 hp, and I
need something in the region of 5.... maybe 20 hp max.Did a small
survey of the amount of waste vendor's charcoal dust here in Nairobi.... my
estimate is that there is over 700,000 tons of the stuff over the 50 largest
charcoal sales sites. Indications are that it is accruing at the rate of
about 20 tons per day.That represents a lot of
trees!elk~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Elsen
L. Karstad , P.O. Box 24371 Nairobi Kenya<FONT
color=#0000ff>elk@net2000ke.com
tel/fax (+ 254 2)
884437

From bedwards at iastate.edu Wed Feb 10 18:03:23 1999
From: bedwards at iastate.edu (William A Edwards)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: biomass stoves vs digestion and gas stoves
Message-ID: <199902102305.RAA09638@isua5.iastate.edu>

Hi all,
I've been considering something lately and I though I'd put it in front of
you all for your reaction.

There is considerable small scale research being directed at improving
biomass stoves and a mailing list devoted to discussion of same (I wonder
how much socially acceptable pyromania is involved, who what *me*? naw! ;->
but that's not what I'm asking about).

Problems with burning biomass:

Diverse solid fuel-size shape kind moisture content etc. i.e. not very
convenient fuel and hard to design stoves for.

Health hazards associated with the emissions.

Nitrogen in the fuel (not much in some fuels but important none the less)
lost to the atmosphere and not returned to soil.

Associated problem:

How many places where most households burn biomass for cooking have sewage
systems (or rather how many such places have "systems" that contribute to
the spread of diseases like cholera)?

THE QUESTION

Would it be wiser to promote the anaerobic digestion of human wastes along
with the biomass that would otherwise be burned and using the effluent for
fertilizer rather than to invest so much effort in improving biomass stoves
and getting them adopted?

Problems that I see with this route:

Digestion systems are larger more expensive items than stoves. But if the
cost is spread over a group of neighbors or a small village...

Many kinds of biomass that are burned have high C:N ratios. But if mixed
with human (and animal waste where available)...

If adoption of improved stoves is a problem how much more so here?

Your thoughts?

Cheers,
Bill

---
William A (Bill) Edwards | It's you and me against the world.
bedwards@iastate.edu | When do we attack?
103 Sandburg Ct.
Ames, IA 50014 USA 515/296-0168
If these aren't my very own views I want to know who the heck's responsible!
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From english at adan.kingston.net Thu Feb 11 07:48:43 1999
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Peter Verhaart's Down Draft Barbeque
Message-ID: <199902111249.HAA21940@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Stovers,
Check out a couple of pictures of a downdrafter at the Stoves web
site. The link is listed below.

Alex

From cree at dowco.com Thu Feb 11 12:30:26 1999
From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Carbonising Sawdust
Message-ID: <000b01be55e4$847ad720$2b5817cf@olsen>

I just joined the list and noticed the note from Elsen L. Karstad,
........"charcoal dust here in Nairobi....".
I am setting up manufacturing facilities on Indian Reservation land in
Canada, to produce a European Compactor using a screw to compress ( any DRY )
bio-waste, etc., to 1 tonne/per cubic meter, and extruding 11cm diameter
logs.
I'm amazed at the amount of Sawdust, Rice Husks, Nut Shells, that are
available to be used as a fuel source.
John Olsen/ Cree Industries.<FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=2>

From karve at wmi.co.in Sat Feb 13 23:05:37 1999
From: karve at wmi.co.in (karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: biomass stoves vs digestion and gas stoves
In-Reply-To: <199902102305.RAA09638@isua5.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <36C64C43.C910571@wmi.co.in>

Dear Mr. Edwards,
You have indeed raised an important issue.
There is no denying that the best way to use biomass as fuel is to
first
convert it into a combustible gas either by digestion or by pyrolysis. I
suppose
the ultimate aim of all stoves researchers is to find a low-tech
easy-to-operate
way to achieve complete combustion of the solid biomass and this
generally
involves gasification followed by burning of the gas.
As far as the digestion route is concerned, in India a lot of work
has been
done on converting animal and human excreta into biogas. Several
community type
plants are in existence, but the number of systems that have failed to
function
(for technical as well as administrative reasons) too is very high. The
basic
problem in this case is that the amount of biomass required is too high
as
compared to the amount of gas produced. For example, at least four heads
of
cattle are necessary to provide sufficient dung to produce gas for an
average
family (5-7 members). However, a farmer who owns four heads of cattle is
anyway
not the person using a biomass burning stove in the first place! So that
does
not really serve the purpose of replacing burning of solid biomass. The
community endevaours tend to fail more due to administrative problems.
However,
biogas plants being run by commercial cestablishments like hostels,
hotels, etc.
(which use excreta and/or kitchen waste) are moderately successful.
There is another problem. Biogas plant requires a lot of water too and
this is a precious commodity.
There are problems in using agricultural residue for making biogas.
Firstly,
a lot of agri-residue is already being used for various purposes other
than fuel
(e.g. fodder for cattle, for making roofs of the huts, etc.). What is
left over
is not sufficient. Therefore one may have to make special energy
plantations for
generating biomass for operating a biogas plant.
For a dung+biomass hybrid system too there is a problem. The biogas
plant
requires input in the form of a homogeneous slurry. If this process is
to occur
anerobically, the gestation period can be quite high. On the other hand
one may
first aerobically decompose the biomass and then use the slurry for
anerobic
digestion. However, in this process too a lot of nitrogen is lost to the
atmosphere. In spite of this, this appears to be the most promising
route and
our institute is presently working on this concept.
We have standardised low-cost and low-tech cultivation techniques
with a
view to increase the yield of biomass/area, i.e., a highly efficient
system of
trapping the sunshine. A special plot is planted exclusively for
generating
biomass for the biogas plant. The harvested biomass is put in a well,
and watered.The
decomposed biomass dissolves in water and the slurry comes out from a
hole in
the bottom of the well. We are now attempting to methanise the mixture
of this
slurry and dung. The compost that comes out of the biogas plant can be
used as
fertiliser in the energy plantation. This is a self sustaining system
with the
only inputs being the sunshine and water (and some inorganic fertiliser
and
micronutrients as and when necessary).
I would most appreciate suggestions and comments from all of you in
this regard.
Coming to the issue of why stoves research: Until we find some way
to ensure
that each and every household in the world can easily and sustainably
have
access to gaseous fuel, a majority of households are stuck with solid
biomass
burning. There has to be some effort to find a short-term solution until
the
ultimate solution comes along. I have also come across another
interesting
argument- we may be laying the groundwork for combating the energy
crisis when
all the fossil fuel finally runs out (especially since the solar
photovoltaics
technology is failing to fulfill its early promises of cost
effectiveness and
efficiency).
With regards,
Priyadarshini Karve

Dr. Priyadarshini Karve
Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI),
2nd Floor, Manini Apartments,
Opposite Pure Foods Co., Dhayari gaon,
Pune 411 041.
Phone: 91 020 590348/342217
Fax: 91 020 331250.

William A Edwards wrote:

> Hi all,
> I've been considering something lately and I though I'd put it in front of
> you all for your reaction.
>
> There is considerable small scale research being directed at improving
> biomass stoves and a mailing list devoted to discussion of same (I wonder
> how much socially acceptable pyromania is involved, who what *me*? naw! ;->
> but that's not what I'm asking about).
>
> Problems with burning biomass:
>
> Diverse solid fuel-size shape kind moisture content etc. i.e. not very
> convenient fuel and hard to design stoves for.
>
> Health hazards associated with the emissions.
>
> Nitrogen in the fuel (not much in some fuels but important none the less)
> lost to the atmosphere and not returned to soil.
>
> Associated problem:
>
> How many places where most households burn biomass for cooking have sewage
> systems (or rather how many such places have "systems" that contribute to
> the spread of diseases like cholera)?
>
> THE QUESTION
>
> Would it be wiser to promote the anaerobic digestion of human wastes along
> with the biomass that would otherwise be burned and using the effluent for
> fertilizer rather than to invest so much effort in improving biomass stoves
> and getting them adopted?
>
> Problems that I see with this route:
>
> Digestion systems are larger more expensive items than stoves. But if the
> cost is spread over a group of neighbors or a small village...
>
> Many kinds of biomass that are burned have high C:N ratios. But if mixed
> with human (and animal waste where available)...
>
> If adoption of improved stoves is a problem how much more so here?
>
> Your thoughts?
>
> Cheers,
> Bill
>
> ---
> William A (Bill) Edwards | It's you and me against the world.
> bedwards@iastate.edu | When do we attack?
> 103 Sandburg Ct.
> Ames, IA 50014 USA 515/296-0168
> If these aren't my very own views I want to know who the heck's responsible!
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
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> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
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From ahe1 at cableol.co.uk Sun Feb 14 17:56:11 1999
From: ahe1 at cableol.co.uk (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: biomass stoves vs digestion and gas stoves
In-Reply-To: <199902102305.RAA09638@isua5.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <199902142256.RAA09436@solstice.crest.org>

Dear Dr. Karve,

I do not subscribe to any biodigestion lists, however if the biogas so
produced is used in a cooking stove the subject appears to remain on topic
for this group. Much work was done on the production of biogas by the Gobi
Institute. If I recall correctly a book was published called "Composting" I
believe the author was named Ram Bukh Singh. This was in the 1970s and
attracted interest from several differing groups.

Our local municipal sewage works has long operated an anaerobic digester,
the gas produced is used in large internal combustion engines which drive
the water pumps. Waste heat from the engines is used to keep the digester
warm. Similar systems are used by farmers to deal with their pig and cattle
slurry, it was suggested that the slurry energy content could be augmented
by cultivating algae in solar heated ponds fertilised by the outflow of the
digester. Algae were said to have the advantage of using sunlight at
200w/m2, intensities higher than this could still be utilised by
circulating fresh algae constantly to the surface.

There has been fresh interest here in anaerobic digestion of green or waste
as it is suggested the gas produced could form a good feed stock for fuel
cells. AJH

From phoenix at transport.com Sun Feb 14 20:45:47 1999
From: phoenix at transport.com (Art Krenzel)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Biogas operations
Message-ID: <199902150147.RAA07110@mail4.transport.com>

Hi Andrew,

Your interest in biodigestion needs to be tempered with the cost/ BTU and
the tempermental operations of a biogas digester. We have several biogas
IC generators operating at our sewage plants as well however it could only
be accomplished using hundreds of thousands of tax dollars. No private
individual could justify the investment dollars per generated BTU when pure
natural
gas sells for $5.50 per therm.

The biogas systems cannot respond to rapid changes in energy needs but
rather produce a small amount of fuel constantly. This does not match the
consumers needs for pulses of energy unless significant safe storage can be
provided.

Biogas works when the cost of fuel is beyond economic reach of the
operator. Due to the tempermental nature of high efficiency biogas
generators, these systems work as long as only one narrow feed stock is fed
to them at a very constant rate and even temperature. Vary the input rate
and feed stock quickly, the biology becomes upsets and gas production
suffers for some time. These systems work as long as you have the luxury
of an old man who can sit next to it, watching what goes in, listening to
the gurgling sounds and knows it like a friend. When several people try to
operate it or just dump whatever waste is available this instant, the unit
can go "sour" and take weeks to get back on line or just produce low flows
of biogas. If you take away that knowledgeable, caring individual, the
project generally falls on it's own sword. We have tons of metal in biogas
plants on dairies all along the I-5 corridor in California which are
shutdown because the operators couldn't understand why the digesters
couldn't handle "just a little diesel fuel" or a salt leak.

The third issue on the change to using human fertilizer is the potential
for spreading disease. One family using their own waste is one thing but
introduce neighbors, visitors and travelers and the potential becomes
fairly serious unless you have been raised in that environment for a long
time.

Some thoughts...

Art Krenzel

> From: Andrew Heggie <ahe1@cableol.co.uk>
> To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> Subject: Re: biomass stoves vs digestion and gas stoves
> Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 2:56 PM
>
> Dear Dr. Karve,
>
> I do not subscribe to any biodigestion lists, however if the biogas so
> produced is used in a cooking stove the subject appears to remain on
topic
> for this group. Much work was done on the production of biogas by the
Gobi
> Institute. If I recall correctly a book was published called "Composting"
I
> believe the author was named Ram Bukh Singh. This was in the 1970s and
> attracted interest from several differing groups.
>
> Our local municipal sewage works has long operated an anaerobic digester,
> the gas produced is used in large internal combustion engines which drive
> the water pumps. Waste heat from the engines is used to keep the digester
> warm. Similar systems are used by farmers to deal with their pig and
cattle
> slurry, it was suggested that the slurry energy content could be
augmented
> by cultivating algae in solar heated ponds fertilised by the outflow of
the
> digester. Algae were said to have the advantage of using sunlight at
> 200w/m2, intensities higher than this could still be utilised by
> circulating fresh algae constantly to the surface.
>
> There has been fresh interest here in anaerobic digestion of green or
waste
> as it is suggested the gas produced could form a good feed stock for fuel
> cells. AJH
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
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From ahe1 at cableol.co.uk Mon Feb 15 16:24:19 1999
From: ahe1 at cableol.co.uk (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Biogas operations
In-Reply-To: <199902150147.RAA07110@mail4.transport.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990215212444.007273fc@mail.cableol.co.uk>

At 17:46 14-02-99 -0800, Art Krenzel wrote:
>Hi Andrew,
>
>Your interest in biodigestion needs to be tempered with the cost/ BTU and
>the tempermental operations of a biogas digester. We have several biogas
>IC generators operating at our sewage plants as well however it could only
>be accomplished using hundreds of thousands of tax dollars. No private
>individual could justify the investment dollars per generated BTU when pure
>natural
>gas sells for $5.50 per therm.
Art, I appreciate the points you make, I was not advocating
anaerobic-digestion just trying to raise awareness of some points, ie that
there had been efforts to increase biogas by use of algae (in response to a
point in Dr. Karve's post). My interest in the list is the clean production
of charcoal and I am developing a feeling that there are many uses of
biomass derived carbon which may benefit our societies (I was particularly
excited about a self lubricating carbon piston derived from pyrolysis of a
resin/pitch). My needs come directly from a point you make, we westerners
are rich and prolific in our energy use, our labour cost is so high that
fuel costs are a minor consideration. Biomass products are now a disposal
problem, this drives us to look at old uneconomic technologies to avoid
costs of disposal. As I pointed out and you confirm digesters are used to
ameliorate a problem, such as smell or prevention of groundwater
contamination with a high BOD effluent.

<snipped valid points on mismatch of output to demand of biogas>
>
>Biogas works when the cost of fuel is beyond economic reach of the
>operator. Due to the tempermental nature of high efficiency biogas
>generators, these systems work as long as only one narrow feed stock is fed
>to them at a very constant rate and even temperature. Vary the input rate
>and feed stock quickly, the biology becomes upsets and gas production
>suffers for some time. These systems work as long as you have the luxury
>of an old man who can sit next to it, watching what goes in, listening to
>the gurgling sounds and knows it like a friend. When several people try to
>operate it or just dump whatever waste is available this instant, the unit
>can go "sour" and take weeks to get back on line or just produce low flows
>of biogas. If you take away that knowledgeable, caring individual, the
>project generally falls on it's own sword. We have tons of metal in biogas
>plants on dairies all along the I-5 corridor in California which are
>shutdown because the operators couldn't understand why the digesters
>couldn't handle "just a little diesel fuel" or a salt leak.

Again I take your points, it seems to me this is a similar state of affairs
to that with gasification of biomass (a list to which I do subscribe).
Whilst this stoves group gets nearer and nearer to solving the problem of
burning wood cleanly for cooking using natural convection and careful
design of gas flows I see the world of micro electronics changing so fast
that it seems to me application of some of this technology to react fast to
system instabilities will aid the sort of problems you refer to. This is
unlikely to benefit the vast part of the world that need it in the near
future. A small indication to me of how fast IT is becoming affordable is
that the post you responded to was dictated by me to the computer, I have
reverted to typing as, until I get a faster machine, I type faster.
>
>The third issue on the change to using human fertilizer is the potential
>for spreading disease. One family using their own waste is one thing but
>introduce neighbors, visitors and travelers and the potential becomes
>fairly serious unless you have been raised in that environment for a long
>time.
I think this was dealt with in the book I quoted, properly managed
an-aerobic systems kill pathogens as well as other sewage disposal methods
(here much sewage free from heavy metal contamination is injected into farm
soils).
AJH

From kmbryden at iastate.edu Mon Feb 15 21:55:42 1999
From: kmbryden at iastate.edu (mark bryden)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: meeting
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990215210144.00811d40@pop-1.iastate.edu>

lets go ahead and plan on our regular meeting on friday at 11:00 unless my
schedule changes.
___________________________________________________________
Mark Bryden, Ph.D. Assistant Professor
kmbryden@iastate.edu Iowa State University
ph: 515-294-3891 3030 Black Engineering Bldg
fax: 515-294-3261 Ames, Iowa 50011-2161
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From REEDTB at compuserve.com Tue Feb 16 06:24:02 1999
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: biomass stoves vs digestion and gas stoves
Message-ID: <199902160625_MC2-6A98-D30E@compuserve.com>

Dear Bill:

Your suggestion would be good for villagers living in warm climates (needed
for digestion) with lots of livestock who could afford to install a
centralized digestion and distribution system. .

Unfortunately that lets out 90% of the 50% undeveloped world. So, back to
improved wood cooking stoves.

Yours truly, TOM REED

From: William A Edwards <bedwards@iastate.edu>
Sender: owner-stoves@crest.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi all,
I've been considering something lately and I though I'd put it in front of
you all for your reaction.

Problems with burning biomass:

Diverse solid fuel-size shape kind moisture content etc. i.e. not very
convenient fuel and hard to design stoves for.

Health hazards associated with the emissions.

Nitrogen in the fuel (not much in some fuels but important none the less)
lost to the atmosphere and not returned to soil.

Associated problem:

How many places where most households burn biomass for cooking have sewage
systems (or rather how many such places have "systems" that contribute to
the spread of diseases like cholera)?

THE QUESTION

and getting them adopted?

Problems that I see with this route:

Digestion systems are larger more expensive items than stoves. But if the
cost is spread over a group of neighbors or a small village...

Many kinds of biomass that are burned have high C:N ratios. But if mixed
with human (and animal waste where available)...

If adoption of improved stoves is a problem how much more so here?

Your thoughts?

Cheers,
Bill

---
William A (Bill) Edwards | It's you and me against the world.
bedwards@iastate.edu | When do we attack?
103 Sandburg Ct.
Ames, IA 50014 USA 515/296-0168
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
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From alkaest at wanadoo.fr Tue Feb 16 06:39:40 1999
From: alkaest at wanadoo.fr (alkaest)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: FRENCH:liste de diffusion sur le Bois-Energie
Message-ID: <36C95B5A.5DCEFF64@wanadoo.fr>

My apologies for this message written in French but it could be of
interest for some of you.

Best regards to all.

Joel Tetard
ALKAEST Conseil
<http://www.alkaest.com>

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

ENERBOIS-liste est un nouveau "forum de discussion électronique" sur
INTERNET proposé par ALKAEST Conseil aux professionnels francophones
intervenant dans la valorisation énergétique du Bois et des ressources
ligneuses :
* exploitants forestiers ;
* équipementiers et fabricants de matériels d'exploitation ;
* fabricants d'appareils de chauffage ;
* thermiciens et bureaux d'études ;
* administrations et associations de promotion du Bois Energie et des
Energies Renouvelables ;
* organisations non gouvernementales ;
* centres de compétences scientifiques et techniques, etc.

Cette liste a pour objet d'aider les professionnels du Bois Energie à :
* mieux se connaître ;
* échanger des informations sur les procédés et les technologies ;
* s'informer sur les nouvelles normes et réglementations nationales et
communautaires ;
* identifier et s'informer sur de nouveaux marchés ;
* nouer des relations de partenariats scientifiques, technologiques,
industriels et commerciaux.

Gratuite, cette liste de diffusion est cependant réservée aux seuls
professionnels concernés afin de garantir un niveau élevé de qualité
dans les échanges.

L'adhésion à la liste est un acte volontaire et il est demandé aux
adhérants de respecter les règles éthiques et les procédures techniques
simples proposées par ALKAEST Conseil.

Vous pouvez les consulter en ligne sur le site d'ALKAEST Conseil ainsi
que les conseils pratiques à l'usage des abonnés.

Comme l'ensemble des outils Internet mis en place par ALKAEST Conseil,
la liste ENERBOIS a fait l'objet d'une déclaration auprès de la
Commission Nationale Informatique et Libertés (CNIL), l'organisme
français chargé de contrôler le bon usage des fichiers nominatifs. Par
ce fait, ALKAEST Conseil s'engage à respecter votre droit de contrôle,
de rectification et de retrait des informations.

Enfin, le retrait de la liste peut s'effectuer à tout moment par simple
envoi d'un message de désabonnement.

Si vous souhaitez adhérer à la liste ENERBOIS-Liste, et obtenir
davantage d'informations sur ses principes de fonctionnement, n'hésitez
pas à consulter la page présentant ce nouveau service d'ALKAEST Conseil

<http://www.alkaest.com/html/Enerbois.htm>

Je vous remercie par avance de bien vouloir diffuser cette information
auprès des personnes susceptibles d'être intéressées par ce forum et
vous prie d'agréer l'expression de nos cordiales salutations.

Joël Tetard
Gérant / Directeur des Etudes
ALKAEST Conseil
<http://www.alkaest.com>
20, rue de la Libération
F92500 Rueil-Malmaison
France

Tél : +33 (0)1 41 96 90 70
Fax : +33 (0)1 41 96 90 71
<marketing@alkaest.com>

From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Fri Feb 19 20:28:56 1999
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:15 2004
Subject: Update- Carbonising Sawdust.
In-Reply-To: <199902100519.IAA09266@net2000ke.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19990219211345.00a5a100@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

At 08:18 AM 10/02/99 +0300, Elsen Karstad wrote:

>
> Stovers;
>
> I've been hiding in a pile of sawdust lately running repeated trials of the
> 5-bed downdraft carboniser. It's working well but has posed the following
> problems for resolution:
>
> 1) The perforated sheet metal carbonising kiln beds scale warp and basically
> burn up too quickly. I've tried thicker gauge mild steel ,and that helps, but
> simply extends the life of the metal by a factor of it's thickness- went from
> 1 mm to 1.5 mm.

Shifting to thicker steel is not the answer. Mild steel fails at about 900 to
1,000 degrees F due to scaling because of the temperature and residual oxygen
available. There is nothing you can do with the chemistry of the off gas....
your only avenue is to reduce the temperature the grates see.

>
> I've also tried slots VS holes... holes are better- the slots opened up
> allowing carbon powder to escape under the kiln & up the chimney as the sheet
> buckled. I'm now making a kiln base using 5 longitudinal strips of angle-iron
> with a 1/8 inch gap to allow the volatiles through. I realise that stainless
> steel would probably resolve my problem, but it's very expensive. Similarly,
> fired clay or ceramic, but how do you perforate such material with thousands
> 1/8 inch holes and suspend it in order to dust the volatile gasses into the
> chimney/combustion chamber?

May I suggest the following for your consideration? Get a 1/8" opening mild
steel screen, or keep your present perforated sheet metal grate, and cover it
with about 3" of screened local gravel, -3/8"+3/16", of a kind that does not
decrepitate with heat. Cover with sawdust, and operate as you would normaly
operate. HOWEVER, get a thermocouple, and stop your charcoaling operation when
the temperature in the bottom inch of the gravel covering reaches about 800
degrees F.

Scaling of mild steel at, or below, 800 F is a very slow process. You should
get markedly increased grate life.

>
> 2) The extruder. I may have the most appropriate design, but I suspect not. I
> have the feeling that I'm re-inventing something that already exists by
> scaling up a regular meat mincer by a factor of six. I'm sure that I should
> get more than the current 2 kg briquettes per minute out of my locally made
> machine. It's run by a 3 hp motor with a double reduction belt drive to 100
> rpm screw speed. I there are any list members that know where I can source
> small brick-making extruders, please let me know. I've heard small units
> exist- they use a geared motor to drive a screw that extrudes clay which is
> cut into bricks for subsequent firing. Everything I've found is HUGE - like,
> 90 hp, and I need something in the region of 5.... maybe 20 hp max.

Use a hydraulic cylinder to create a pressure on a chamber filled with the
charcoal and binder mix to be extruded. Fashion an outlet die of the shape you
want. The length of the die will determine the pressure developed within the
die, and the degree of densification attained.

I designed a similar system for pelletizing peat, and it worked.

Hope this helps.

Kevin Chisholm

From tmiles at teleport.com Sat Feb 20 15:18:31 1999
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Bioenergy Email Lists, Sponsors and Commands
Message-ID: <199902202018.PAA06474@solstice.crest.org>

BIOENERGY EMAIL LISTS

The bioenergy mailing lists are hosted by the Center for Renewable Energy &
Sustainable Technologies(CREST) for industry, academia and government to
discuss biomass production and conversion to energy. There are five lists
at CREST.

o Bioenergy bioenergy@crest.org
Moderator: Tom Miles tmiles@teleport.com
Archive: http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/bioenergy-list-archive/
Digest: bioenergy-digest@crest.org

o Gasification gasification@crest.org
Moderators: Thomas Reed REEDTB@compuserve.com
Estoban Chornet Chornete@tcplink.nrel.gov
Archive: http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
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o Anaerobic Digestion digestion@crest.org
Moderators: Phil Lusk plusk@usa.pipeline.com
Pat Wheeler patrick.wheeler@aeat.co.uk
Richard Nelson rnelson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu
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Digest: digestion-digest@crest.org

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Moderators: Ronal Larson larcon@csn.net
Alex English <english@adan.kingston.net
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Moderators: Tom Jeffries twjeffri@facstaff.wisc.edu
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Current subscribers to the lists are engaged in the research and commercial
production of biomass crops and fuels, the conversion of biomass power in
commercial operating plants, the construction and testing of commercial
scale pilot facilities for combustion, gasification and anaerobic
digestion, testing and analysis of environmental impacts for bioenergy, and
promotion and planning of future bioenergy resources.

MODERATORS

This is a cooperative, volunteer effort that is now in it's fifth year. The
lists are moderated and managed by volunteers. If you want to help moderate
a list pease contact individual ist moderators or Tom miles, Bioenergy List
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SPONSORS

We appreciate the support of the Center for Renewable Energy and
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($100 minimum please) and will be necessary to sustain the lists.
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Messages are archived at CREST using hypermail. The archives can be viewed
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From kammen at phoenix.Princeton.EDU Sat Feb 20 15:48:37 1999
From: kammen at phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel Kammen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Visiting Faculty Position: ERG, UC Berkeley - Env. Sociology
Message-ID: <199902202048.PAA08531@solstice.crest.org>

Visiting Assistant Professorship in Environmental/Developmental
Sociology or related fields

The Energy and Resources Group seeks applicants for a position as
visiting assistant professor (higher levels possible if visitor brings
sabbatic or other support) during 1999-2000 who is prepared to teach
graduate level courses in the general areas of environmental and
development sociology to students from diverse disciplinary backgrounds
who are broadly concerned with resource use and environmental
conservation, the roles of economies and social organization, and human
well-being. The visiting professor will teach two courses or advanced
seminars per semester and advise graduate students. Visitors who bring
some funding with them may teach proportionately less.

Courses might address the specific topics such as, for example: resource
extractive communities, environmental movements, technological
transformations, particular environmental controversies, environmental
"lifestyles," qualitative and field research methods from a sociological
or related perspective. Students seeking advice generally need
assistance in the area of qualitative research and methodology.

ERG provides a unique interdisciplinary research and teaching
environment, with additional information available at
http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~erg.

A letter of interest, resume, names of references should be sent to
Professor Per Peterson, Chair, 310 Barrows Hall, University of
California at Berkeley, Berkeley, California 94720-3050 by March 15
(later applications will be considered, but we hope to be negotiating
with a limited number of suitable candidates by April 1).

Daniel M. Kammen
Associate Professor of Energy and Society
Energy and Resources Group (ERG)
310 Barrows Hall
University of California, Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-3050
Email: dkammen@socrates.berkeley.edy
Tel: 510-642-1640
Fax: 510-642-1085

From kammen at phoenix.Princeton.EDU Sat Feb 20 21:34:06 1999
From: kammen at phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Daniel Kammen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Visiting Faculty Position: ERG, UC Berkeley - Env. Sociology
Message-ID: <199902210234.VAA23363@solstice.crest.org>

Visiting Assistant Professorship in Environmental/Developmental
Sociology or related fields

ERG provides a unique interdisciplinary research and teaching
environment, with additional information available at

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~erg.

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Tue Feb 23 10:22:34 1999
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Update- Carbonising Sawdust.
Message-ID: <199902231023_MC2-6B83-716F@compuserve.com>

Dear ELK and Jim:

Briquetting the sawdust makes a cleanburning fuel with 3 times the energy
of the original sawdust. Unfortunately it requires capitalization of
several hundred thousand $. Such plants are BEGINNING to appear in the
U.S., Canada and Europe. I can buy 1/4" sawdust pellets in many of my
hardware stores for $2.50 - $3 for a 40 lb plastic bag - and I do for my
gasifier experiments. We can buy 3/8"peanut hull pellets from Birdsong
Peanuts in Georgia for $40/ton. Great fuels.

We have occasionally used a "STONE GRATE". Put appropriate size stones on
top of your metal grate that will pass the necessary air. Limestone breaks
down, but maintains size.

Alternatively, a higher heat loss at the grate would help. Try a pool of
water underneath.

I'd love to see your operation. How do I get myself there?

Your pal,
TOM REED

Thomas B. Reed: The Biomass Energy Foundation
1810 Smith Rd., Golden, CO 80401
303 278 0558V; 303 278 0560F
E-mail: reedtb@compuserve.com
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From cree at dowco.com Tue Feb 23 10:57:33 1999
From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Update- Carbonising Sawdust.
Message-ID: <000b01be5f45$79bf12a0$495817cf@olsen>

Hi Tom et al,
Last years Ice storm which hit the Canadian Provinces of Ontario and Quebec
have fueled
(pun intended) a great interest in Stoves as a heat source.We and lots of
other companies are doing research on machinery to dry and compact, into
small Logs or Pellets, Sawdust, Charcoal,Rice Husks, Nut shells, etc., and
of course our New crop of Industrial Hemp.
John Olsen/ SunLog /Cree Industries/ Canada.

From john at gulland.ca Tue Feb 23 11:50:15 1999
From: john at gulland.ca (John Gulland)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Ice storm
In-Reply-To: <000b01be5f45$79bf12a0$495817cf@olsen>
Message-ID: <000a01be5f4c$a2d25880$2136f8ce@jgulland.igs.net>

John Olsen wrote:
> Last years Ice storm which hit the Canadian Provinces of Ontario and > Quebec
have fueled (pun intended) a great interest in Stoves as a heat > source.

So true. The Hearth Products Association of Canada, with support from
Environment Canada and the Ontario Ministry of Environment, launched the Eastern
Ontario Great Wood Stove Changeout on January 8th, the anniversary of the ice
storm. The response has been surprisingly strong. The core of the changeout is
discounts offered by stove retailers and manufacturers to encourage people to
trade in their old conventional stoves for new clean burning EPA certified
models. The old stoves are destroyed, so they are removed from the airshed thus
reducing pollution, plus the new stoves are far more efficient, so less wood is
consumed from then on.

But the big surprise was how many people turned out on cold, dark winter
evenings to attend Woodstove Workshops to hear what responsible wood heating is
all about. Hundreds of 'em! You can read about the Changeout project here:
http://www.wood-heat.com/change1.htm
and about the workshops here:
http://www.wood-heat.com/workshop.htm

Regards,
John
This is for business: http://www.gulland.ca/
This is for pleasure: http://www.wood-heat.com/

From elk at net2000ke.com Tue Feb 23 13:20:59 1999
From: elk at net2000ke.com (Elsen Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Carbonising Sawdust- metal kiln oxidation
Message-ID: <199902231824.VAA18645@net2000ke.com>

Dear Tom, Kevin & all;I've been mulling over the possibilities of using aggregate stone as a fireproof insulative base for the sawdust carbonising beds, but this presents a problem with emptying. At present I use shovels and rely on a smooth metal bottom to the kiln beds to ensure efficient collection and to clear the perforations in preparation for the next batch of sawdust. I imagine that unless all material is cleared away between batches, airflow will be occluded.I think we are onto something here though..... maybe Kevin's suggestion of controlling temperature is the best way to go about preserving the metal- this should be possible, as each kiln is valved and flue vacuum can be controlled. Hate to slow down the rig though!Tom's suggestion of a pool of water- or some sort of heat sink- could work, but I think I'll leave that one on the back burner... we are in the middle of a mini-drought at present & water is hard to come by!Regards to all;elk~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Elsen L. Karstad , P.O. Box 24371 Nairobi Kenyaelk@net2000ke.com tel/fax (+ 254 2) 884437

From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Tue Feb 23 15:45:56 1999
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Carbonising Sawdust- metal kiln oxidation
In-Reply-To: <199902231824.VAA18645@net2000ke.com>
Message-ID: <36D313F1.C243E38A@fox.nstn.ca>

Dear Elk

I forget the details of your downdraft system, but if you install the
full charge of sawdust, and then ignite the top, to carbonize from the
top down, the grate is cold until the last of the sawdust is carbonized,
and overheating only results when charcoal is burned. On the other hand,
if you charge a thin layer of sawdust, and then ignite it prior to covering
it with the full charge, the grate will be "generally hot" throughout the
whole operation. The question is:
Is this "generally hot" condition below the scaling
temp of say 900 F?

One other thing to consider before you make any changes is the following:

The damage is being done when the grates overheat to a temperature above
the scaling temperature. (Assume 900 F). When there is still uncarbonized
sawdust on the grates, they cannot overheat. OR, if the temperature was
"generally hot" but below 900F, the grates could not scale. If you used
grate temperature as an indicator of when the sawdust was carbonized, you
could catch the problem before it happened: When you see the temperature
of the underside of the grate reaching 900F, then kill the draft, and remove
the charcoal already made.

This should also have the associated beneficial effects of:
1: Less yield loss, due to "overburning."
2: Greater production, due to less wasted process time.

The possible downside is that there may be some areas on the bed that
are not fully carbonized, and the charcoal surround it would tend to be
a bit smoky.

If you are lucky, the solution to your problem may be as simple as a
thermocouple attached to the underside of your grate: Stop charcoaling
when the temperature shows
825 to 875 F.

Hope this is helpful.

Elsen Karstad wrote:
Dear
Tom, Kevin & all;

I've
been mulling over the possibilities of using aggregate stone as a fireproof
insulative base for the sawdust carbonising beds, but this presents a problem
with emptying.

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Wed Feb 24 09:51:12 1999
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Problems with straw combustion
Message-ID: <199902240952_MC2-6BAF-C985@compuserve.com>

Dear Tom Miles, Christian and others:

Tom Miles said...

"If individuals post suggestions to the list then we can begin to
accumulate
current references. Maybe it's time to start a "webliography" of
publications dealing with
bioenergy combustion and conversion issues. We can post a list of links and
publications or maintain a database of the same at CREST."

Great idea! Yes, yes, a "Webibliography" would be great, and you can use
mine in part to start it up. We are all awash in data, some good some bad,
some leading to new ideas, some red herrings. The more we can do to help
sort it out, the better.

Our five main categories at CREST - BIOENERGY, BIOCONVERSION, DIGESTION,
GASIFICATION and STOVES are insufficient for our wide range of interests.
For the last 4 years I have been using COMPUSERVE's filing cabinet to
classify my particular interests and I have been filing all communications
under these sub-categories:

AG-BAG
ALKALI
ASH
UTILITIES
BAGASSE
BARK
BIODIESEL
BIOGAS
BIOMASS
BLOWERS
BOILERS
BRIQUETTING
BUN
BUN-INDIA
BURNERS
CHARCOAL
CHEMICALS
CHIPS
CLIMATE,WEATHER
CO
COAL
CO-FIRING
COGENERATION
COMBUSTION
FEEDERS
COOKING
CORN
COTTON
CREST
CSERVE
CSM
CYCLONE
DEFORESTATION
DENSIFICATION
DESERTIFICATION
DIESEL
DME
DRYING
ECONOMICS
EMISSIONS
ENERGY FARMING
ENERGY FUTURES
ENGINES
ENVIRONMENT
ETHANOL
FERTILIZERS
FILTERS
FLAMES
FLUID BEDS
FOOD
FOSSIL FUELS
FUEL CELLS
FUEL EFFICIENCY
FUELS-MISC
GASIFICATION 99
GASIFICATION-98
GASIFIER DESIGN
H2S
HCN
HEAT VALUES
HEMP
HUBBERT
HUMOR
HYDRATE
HYDROGEN
INCINERATION
INDIA
INFINET
INSULATION
MALTHUS
MANTLE
MANURES
METHANOL
MODELLING
MSW
NATURAL GAS
OCTANE
OIL SHALE
OIL/GAS
OXYGEN-AIR
PALM OIL
PARTICULATES
PEAT
PELLETS
POWER
PRODUCER GAS
PULP/PAPER
PYROLYSIS
RECYCLING
REFORESTATION
REFRACTORIES
REFRIGERATION
REVIEWING
RICE HULL
ROOT FUELS
SAWDUST
SCALE
SECOND LAW
SHORT ROTATION
SILK
SLUDGE
SMOKE
SOIL
SOLAR
SOOT
SPACE
STEAM
STIRLING
STOVE PRODUCTION
STOVE RESEARCH
STOVES-97
STOVES-98
STOVES-99
STRAW
SUGAR CANE
SUPERFICIAL VELOCITYY
SURFACE COMBUSTION
SYN-GAS
TARS
TECHNOLOGY
THERMODYNAMICS
THERMOELECTRICS
THERMOGENICS
RULES OF THUMB
TIRES
TREATED WOOD
TURBINES
TURBO STOVE
VILLAGE POWER
WATER

(Sorry I can't send this in columns as I just viewed it in MSWORD.)

These categories fit the bill for me. If I want to know the thinking on
any of these subjects I can look in that folder. Compuserve is particularly
good about letting you file this way. Will other servers permit this? So
far this is why I am sticking with the ailing CS.

Don't drown in data...

Yours truly, TOM
REED

From larcon at sni.net Wed Feb 24 16:35:18 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Short trip away
Message-ID: <v01540b03b2fa0fee517b@[204.131.233.32]>

Stovers - I am off tomorrow to visit Rogerio Miranda in Managua (and for
one other reason as well). Please send messages to Rogerio if you are
nearby and we might meet.

Alex has again kindly offered to mind the store. I'll report back
in after about March 16.

Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From REEDTB at compuserve.com Sat Feb 27 07:24:07 1999
From: REEDTB at compuserve.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: MURDER on the Internet
Message-ID: <199902270725_MC2-6C16-F8AD@compuserve.com>

Dear CREST:

I have just finished spending an hour making sure my system is clean from
the virus/worm HAPPY99.EXE. (It was). Dave Dalton told me how to do it
and I followed his and other instructions I downloaded from the WWW.

Dave and I cannot understand how some hackers can take pleasure in
attacking all the computers IN THE WORLD with viruses and worms. Our
computers all contain valuable information which can be destroyed or
corrupted and we can corrupt others unknowingly. Do they sit at their
machines howling with laughter?

I claim that this is a new form of MURDER, as follows. Each of us will have
some 16 hours a day to work at a productive lifetime as we choose how to
spend typically 50 years of our productive lifetimes. This adds up to
292,000 or ~ 300,000 hours which add to gether to make an adult life.

If a hacker can infect 30 million computers and each operator has to spend
an hour getting disinfected, that is 30 M hours stolen from Humanity. That
amounts to 100 lives destroyed or MURDERED!

I know there are wrist-slap penalties in place for sending viruses. We
need to make our legislators aware of the seriousness of these computer
crimes and make the penalties proportional to those for MURDER. (I
personally would recommend the death penalty, but I know that many people
would consider that to be legal murder and prefer that society prescribe
life imprisonment - either way get rid of these RATS!)

If you feel as strongly about this as we do, please send this on to your
legislators, friends etc.

Yours truly,

TOM REED
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From english at adan.kingston.net Sat Feb 27 08:26:42 1999
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: MURDER on the Internet
In-Reply-To: <199902270725_MC2-6C16-F8AD@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <199902271327.IAA27636@adan.kingston.net>

Tom Reed wrote:

> If a hacker can infect 30 million computers and each operator has to spend
> an hour getting disinfected, that is 30 M hours stolen from Humanity. That
> amounts to 100 lives destroyed or MURDERED!

I'll take a different tack. This "virus" may have successfully
inoculated (educated) the worlds computer users against future more
serious offenders. If 30 million people will now refuse to open
unrequested file attachments, our little Happy99.exe could have
prevented species extinction. I'm referring to the sub species,
homo nerdoid ignoramus.

Happy 99 and many more, Alex
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211

From english at adan.kingston.net Sat Feb 27 23:01:51 1999
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Carbonising Sawdust- metal kiln oxidation
In-Reply-To: <36D313F1.C243E38A@fox.nstn.ca>
Message-ID: <199902280402.XAA01558@adan.kingston.net>

Elsen,
It may be a little more elaborate than you want but here is my
suggestion for an air cooled grate for your sawdust carboniser.

Take sheet steel and weld (air tight) angle-iron in parallel strips
along one side (the bottom), with just enough room for a row of holes
or a slot between each of the pieces. If you drill the holes from
the bottom , without going all the way through, the holes will be
tapered with the smallest dimension on the top. A flat scraper might
be all it takes to clean and open the grate between batches.

Then manifold the ends of the triangular tubes into a larger duct
which is connected to the air supply in the fire box. You'll have
preheated air and a cooler grate.

Alex

From karve at wmi.co.in Sun Feb 28 01:23:10 1999
From: karve at wmi.co.in (karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: Stovers' conference
Message-ID: <36D8DC1C.671CBDE3@wmi.co.in>

Dear Stovers,
The process of getting Indian government's clearance for the
Conference has been initiated. In order to facilitate processing of visa
applications, it is necessary to provide a list of potential delegates
for the conference. I therefore request all of you who are interested in
attending the conference to give me the following information
Name (as it appears on your passport), Official address,
Nationality.
If any of you are citizens of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, or China,
please provide the following information:
Name, Father's name, Date & Place of birth, Residential address and
Passport details.
If an organisations has yet to decide on the name(s) of delegates for
the conference, I suggest that you provide information about all the
potential candidates.
We are trying our best to hold the Conference in January 2000,
however the dates have not been fixed yet for several logistic reasons.
The most important reason is that the Indian Science Congress is also
going to be held in Pune in January 2000. We do not want to clash dates
with this event, because (a) several of the potential Indian
participants would like to attend both the events, and (b) none of the
institutional guest houses will be available to us during the period of
the Science Congress.
With regards,
Priyadarshini Karve.

From Alex.English at adan.kingston.net Sun Feb 28 22:29:06 1999
From: Alex.English at adan.kingston.net (*.english)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: emergency stove
Message-ID: <199903010329.WAA07324@adan.kingston.net>

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:12:16 -0600
From: Roger Parrish <rparrish@mail.win.org>
Reply-to: rparrish@mail.win.org
Organization: HOME
To: english@adan.kingston.net

Roger Parrish (not currently a stoves list subscriber) wrote:

"I am looking for a low cost wood stove that can be used indoors to
heat and cook with during times of emergency. I am looking to purchase
in quantity for resale proposes. Any information on a stove of this
type or plans on how to build a stove of this type would be greatly
appreciated."

Alex English replies:

Roger, there are some list members, like Paul Hait of Pyromid, who
have some experience with this market.

The need for a wood stove for emergency cooking and heating was very
real during last years ice storm, even for the relatively wealthy,
here in the north east of North America. The current hype around
Y2K problems is expanding the market. It begs the question; are
simple cooking stoves, designed for daily use in the materially
poorer regions of the world, suitable for emergency needs in places
like Canada?

Sure, why not? During an emergency all the margins of safety, which
the building and fire codes are based on, get stretched as basic
personal needs take precedence.

The small chimneyless stoves used for cooking would likely only
barely keep the people standing next to them warm, during
conditions like those during the ice storm. The windows and doors
would have to be partly open to vent the product of combustion.

This senario seems a bit dangerous. Inexperienced people
tending a small wood cookstove inside their homes. Where do they set
it up? Sparks can fly! Do you think the stove should be sold with a
large piece of sheet metal to place underneath it.

Would these folks who plan for the unexpected also have a supply of
dry fuel on hand? Or would they be trying to burn anything that
burns. Sound familiar?

If the goal is to keep the pipes freezing, then clearly a much larger
stove is required, and should be installed properly as though it were
used regularly.

The vast disparity among people is some how reduced by this apparently
shared need for heat energy from a secure affordable source. Perhaps
the "emergency" stove market can drive some technology development
with positive spin offs for stove users around the world, or at
least provide a market for stoves made in poorer countries.

Regards,

Alex English
RR 2 Odessa, Ontario, Canada
K0H2H0 613-386-1927
Fax 613-386-1211
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From costaeec at kcnet.com Sun Feb 28 23:46:46 1999
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (Jim Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:16 2004
Subject: emergency stove
Message-ID: <000601be63a4$943c03a0$5a0f0a0c@default>

If an emergency stove can be justified, then a supply of fuel for such a
stove is also in order. Densified sawdust firelogs are perfect. They are
very high in BTU's and can be stored indefinately (wrapped) in a small area.
They burn hot, clean, consistent, and with very little ash. There are no
sparks, no bark, no soot, no burning cinders, and no bugs. Their consistency
makes usage very simple & safe

There are several good brands available in WA & OR, and Enviro-Logs by mail
order. We can direct your inquiries, if interested.

Jim Dunham
EEC, 816-452-3500
Fax-816-452-6663
-----Original Message-----
From: *.english <Alex.English@adan.kingston.net>
To: rparrish@mail.win.org <rparrish@mail.win.org>; stoves@crest.org
<stoves@crest.org>
Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 8:33 PM
Subject: emergency stove

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 18:12:16 -0600
From: Roger Parrish <rparrish@mail.win.org>
Reply-to: rparrish@mail.win.org
Organization: HOME
To: english@adan.kingston.net

Roger Parrish (not currently a stoves list subscriber) wrote:

Alex English replies:

Roger, there are some list members, like Paul Hait of Pyromid, who
have some experience with this market.

Sure, why not? During an emergency all the margins of safety, which
the building and fire codes are based on, get stretched as basic
personal needs take precedence.

Would these folks who plan for the unexpected also have a supply of
dry fuel on hand? Or would they be trying to burn anything that
burns. Sound familiar?

If the goal is to keep the pipes freezing, then clearly a much larger
stove is required, and should be installed properly as though it were
used regularly.

Regards,

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

February 1999 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive