September 1999 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From larcon at sni.net Wed Sep 1 12:34:16 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:22 2004
Subject: Forwarding Cornel Ticarat on charcoal kilns
Message-ID: <v01540b06b3f2eeb4966e@[204.131.233.7]>

Stovers: Perhaps someone will have some specific information for Mr. Ticarat?

Ticarat: On this list we are very concerned about the release of many
noxious (and valuable) gases when charcoal is produced in virtually all
traditional or commercial kilns. In many countries it is no longer legal
to use these techniques.

Please look back in our list archives to see the work of several
list members who are working on techniques to at least flare these gases,
but in some cases to also utilize the waste heat productively - perhaps to
dry other wood (including that still to be turned into charcoal.

I am not aware of any of these techiques that are available
commercially, but several list members have described designs that could be
constructed - and some are probably available to help on a consulting
basis.

There are some on this list who would like to help at no cost, if
you are interested in providing more detail on the following:

a. What is your definiton of "big quantitities"?
b. Can you arrange your operation to only produce charcoal after
allowing the beech to dry for a year or two?
c. Are there any nearby operations nearby that could use the waste
heat if a combustible gas could be assured?
d. Why have you chosen producing charcoal versus other potential
uses of the wood?

We look forward to hearing more about your proposed operation.

Ron

> Dear Sirs,
>
> We are a Romanian firm interested in producing wood charcoal in
>big quatities montly. The wood we want to use is beech wood. We are
>interested in some metal wood charcoal kilns you know maybe about. Please
>send us, if you know, some adresses of firms manufacturing such kilns.
>Thank you very much.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Manager
> Cornel Ticarat
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Wed Sep 1 15:48:10 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:22 2004
Subject: Forwarding Tom Stubbing to Cornel Ticarat
Message-ID: <v01540b03b3f31dc01ac3@[204.131.233.23]>

Stovers - My goof necessitated the following additional exchange in a
forwarding format (but maybe for the good of us all).

Tom - very sorry for not showing Cornel's address. I usually do that and
goofed this time. I must have scrapped the incoming "bounced" mail. I
presume Cornel will read this or some list member will have it. In any
case it is good to get this repeat of your current standing on this topic.

Cornel - I hope you read the following. We would welcome you as a (free)
member. We still would love to hear more from you.

Ron

>Dear Ronal,
>
>As you know I have recently posted information on our pyrolysis gas burning
>drying/charcoal making system to 'Stovers' and would be pleased to help Mr
>Ticarat
>directly, especially as our licensee has already offered a competitive,
>one tonne
>moist weight batch capacity machine to a US company and is selling its
>state of the
>art ceramic shape batch dryers, in principle of similar design though
>operating at
>lower temperatures, to East European countries including Romania, which is
>easily
>accessible from the UK.
>
>Can you please provide me with his e-mail address?
>
>I shall copy you with what I then send him, though if you have enrolled
>him as a
>'stoves' member I could do it all directly through the list.
>
>Regards,
>
>Thomas
>
>Ronal W. Larson wrote:
>
>> Stovers: Perhaps someone will have some specific information for Mr.
>>Ticarat?
>>
>> Ticarat: On this list we are very concerned about the release of many
>> noxious (and valuable) gases when charcoal is produced in virtually all
>> traditional or commercial kilns. In many countries it is no longer legal
>> to use these techniques.
>>
>> Please look back in our list archives to see the work of several
>> list members who are working on techniques to at least flare these gases,
>> but in some cases to also utilize the waste heat productively - perhaps to
>> dry other wood (including that still to be turned into charcoal.
>>
>> I am not aware of any of these techiques that are available
>> commercially, but several list members have described designs that could be
>> constructed - and some are probably available to help on a consulting
>> basis.
>>
>> There are some on this list who would like to help at no cost, if
>> you are interested in providing more detail on the following:
>>
>> a. What is your definiton of "big quantitities"?
>> b. Can you arrange your operation to only produce charcoal after
>> allowing the beech to dry for a year or two?
>> c. Are there any nearby operations nearby that could use the waste
>> heat if a combustible gas could be assured?
>> d. Why have you chosen producing charcoal versus other potential
>> uses of the wood?
>>
>> We look forward to hearing more about your proposed operation.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> > Dear Sirs,
>> >
>> > We are a Romanian firm interested in producing wood charcoal in
>> >big quatities montly. The wood we want to use is beech wood. We are
>> >interested in some metal wood charcoal kilns you know maybe about. Please
>> >send us, if you know, some adresses of firms manufacturing such kilns.
>> >Thank you very much.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> >
>> > Manager
>> > Cornel Ticarat
>> >
>>
>> Ronal W. Larson, PhD
>> 21547 Mountsfield Dr.
>> Golden, CO 80401, USA
>> 303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
>> larcon@sni.net
>>
>> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>> Stoves Webpage
>> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Sep 1 18:32:20 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:22 2004
Subject: 4th Biomass of the Americas Conference
Message-ID: <254c4c92.24ff0362@cs.com>

Dear Biomasseuses:

I am here in sunny Oakland (temp 70 F) enjoying one of the best conferences
so far. Initially I was afraid that our conferences had peaked and we'd only
be hearing summer reruns of old papers. Not so and this conference has been
worth the $725 registration and $100/ night hotel fee. Obviously I can't
cover 1% of what is exciting, but:

1) There was a demonstration of a 30 kW CAPSTEAD turbine mounted on a 7ft X
10 ft trailer. (Unfortunately running on propane, but next step a gasifier.

2) Opening speaker was Jerry Brown, ex gov, CO and mayor of Oakland. He says
the LUGER (R) bill is a major shot in the arm for biomass, and certainly the
democrats will support it.

3) Considering that inefficient, dirty, wasteful cooking is the #1 problem
for 1/2 the world, there has been precious little work in the biomass
community to solve the problem. We have two posters here, one on our TURBO
(Forced draft) stove and one on the Wendelbro (natural draft) stove. A
picture of our Turbo stove in India won first prize in the photo contest.

4) There is significant progrss being reported in gasification and several
groups (including ours) are working on low tar gasifiers (rather than bigtime
cleanup gasifiers).

5) There is much more emphasis on smaller scale uses of biomass and less
"big is beautiful" high cost research..

I have developed an aphorism:

IF YOU THROW ENOUGH MONEY AT A PROBLEM, IT WILL NEVER BE SOLVED.

(However, if you give it no thought or work it won't be solved either.

Greetings from Oakland,

Your faithful reporter, TOM REED, BEF

From larcon at sni.net Sat Sep 4 11:31:57 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding Flanders on Clean Burning Sugar Cane Fuel
Message-ID: <v01540b04b3f61a94d55c@[204.131.233.32]>

Stovers: Cathy Flanders is the moderator of the List "IAQ" (Indoor Air
Quality".. The message is self-explanatory - and potentially important for
stove design. Does any "stove" list member have further information on
this product?
The product seems limited here to fire-starting, but is it possibly
low enough cost to be used as a complete stove fuel?

There are few such products that are renewable - perhaps here are
other similar products down the road?

Ron

>From: Rkfabf@aol.com
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 17:32:50 EDT
>Subject: Clean Burning Sugar Cane Fuel
>To: larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>Hi Ronal -
>
>I stumbled across this searching for something else in the NEW SCIENTIST
>archives & thought it might be of interest to your group...you likely already
>know about this, but I found this truly intriguing re: possible application
>in say the barrios of SE Asia (if the cost of production could be pared down).
>
>Anyway, enjoy and have a safe Labor Day holiday.
>
>Regards -
>Cathy Flanders
>IAQ List Manager & Moderator
>E-Fax # 781-394-8288
>rkfabf@aol.com

> IAQ List - Home
>http://www.onelist.com/community/iaq
> IAQ List - Links
>http://www.onelist.com/links/iaq
>
>Candles and Indoor Air Quality
>http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/
><A HREF="http://disc.server.com/Indices/41692.html">Homeowners Soot Damage
>Discussion</A>
>http://disc.server.com/Indices/41692.html
>
>========BEGIN ARTICLE======================
>
> <A HREF="http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19990626/newsstory10.html">New
>Scientist: Singed eyebrows are off the menu</A>
>http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19990626/newsstory10.html
>
>Singed eyebrows are off the menu
>
>Matt Walker
>A NEW CLEAN-BURNING FUEL for lighting fires could end the ritual havoc of the
>summer barbecue, with its billowing smoke, blackened sausages and accidental
>flash fires.
>
>The fuel, which comes as a nondrip gel, is made from almost equal amounts of
>ethanol, fermented from sugar cane, and cellulose. It burns without smoke,
>giving off water and carbon dioxide as waste products. "It's nontoxic, won't
>flare and doesn't taint food," says Nick Malpeli, director of Kwik Cook of
>Bristol, the firm that developed the fuel.
>
>Conventional fire-lighting fluids are based on kerosene (paraffin), a highly
>flammable petrochemical that can flare up if you douse the charcoal with too
>much fluid. Solid lighters are usually based on hexamine, a compound often
>used in explosives. It produces a lot of smoke, which contains potential
>carcinogens and blackens food with soot.
>
>By contrast, only about 0.1 per cent of the new fuel turns into soot. The
>mixture of cellulose and ethanol would naturally burn with a bluish flame.
>But for safety reasons, Kwik Cook has added table salt to turn the flame a
>highly visible yellow. Tiny amounts of Bitrex, an extremely bitter substance,
>have been added to discourage people from consuming the fuel for its alcohol.
>Trial sales of the gel are now starting in Britain.
>
>
>>From New Scientist, 26 June 1999
>
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From tmiles at teleport.com Tue Sep 7 11:07:19 1999
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Domain Name: BiomassPower.com
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990906161606.00c41390@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990907080434.03cf4d60@mail.teleport.com>

Address Correction: Please reply to stevemac2@aol.com

Note: a portion of the proceeds of a sale would be contributed to the
maintenance of the bioenergy lists.

At 04:17 PM 9/6/99 -0700, Tom Miles wrote:

>This may be of interest to someone on the list. Please reply to Steve McNulty
>email: stevemac2@aol.com
>
>Tom Miles
>========================================
>
>9/5/99
>
>Hello -
>
>
>I'm writing to see if your company would be interested in purchasing my
>domain name which is BiomassPower.com.
>
>
>Easy to remember website, good for telling clients/customers. Plus it has the
>"dotcom" extension which is hard to come by.
>
>
>Please let me know,
>
>
>Steve McNulty
Email: stevemac2@aol.com
T.R. Miles tmiles@teleport.com
1470 SW Woodward Way http://www.teleport.com/~tmiles
Portland, OR 97225
Tel 503-292-0107 Fax 503-605-0208
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From pioneer at mikotronic.ro Thu Sep 9 20:40:44 1999
From: pioneer at mikotronic.ro (Horea_Opre)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: CHARCOAL Manufacturers
Message-ID: <199909100040.UAA03158@solstice.crest.org>

Dear sirs,

We are a little company located in Transilvania , Romania and we want to
start a charcoal business here because the wood are not expansive and I
think that can be a good business.
If anybody can help us with information about the technology, stoves,
charcoal international prices, IEC ....etc I kindly ask to do it.
If anybody want to work with us please tell us.
For your information here in Romania the wood price for charcoal sticks
is about 8 USD.

Thanking you for your kind attention,

All the best,

Horea opre

horeaopre@yahoo.com

From ddyjack at sph.llu.edu Thu Sep 9 20:40:44 1999
From: ddyjack at sph.llu.edu (David Dyjack)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: [hedon] Boiling Point pubs&news
In-Reply-To: <E12F8097E5C0D2118DA50080C8E8A819021621@ITDG-MAIL>
Message-ID: <199909100040.UAA03159@solstice.crest.org>

Greetings:

I've just completed a four week field survey in Western Ethiopia where we
collected short term and long term time weighted average respirable mass
fraction particulate exposure samples (using NIOSH method 0600) on women who
use traditional 3-stone cookstoves. We obtained both personal breathing zone
samples and area samples inside peoples homes, including overnight exposure
data. The goal of the research is to develop a 24 hour time weighted average
exposure profile for this population. Do listserve members have any
recommendations for peer-refereed journal(s) that might be most appropriate
for publication of this type of research? Thanks in advance.

Dave Dyjack

From larcon at sni.net Fri Sep 10 09:53:24 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forward David Dyjack on respiration samples
Message-ID: <v01540b00b3febf07494d@[204.131.233.11]>

Stovers: Can anyone suggest a place to publish results?

David - I will respond separately on my own interest in Ethiopia and your
results - not on how to publish.

Ron

> Greetings:
>
>I've just completed a four week field survey in Western Ethiopia where we
>collected short term and long term time weighted average respirable mass
>fraction particulate exposure samples (using NIOSH method 0600) on women who
>use traditional 3-stone cookstoves. We obtained both personal breathing zone
>samples and area samples inside peoples homes, including overnight exposure
>data. The goal of the research is to develop a 24 hour time weighted average
>exposure profile for this population. Do listserve members have any
>recommendations for peer-refereed journal(s) that might be most appropriate
>for publication of this type of research? Thanks in advance.
>
>Dave Dyjack

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Fri Sep 10 19:21:17 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: CHARCOAL Manufacturers
Message-ID: <v01540b02b3fec0cdb3ec@[204.131.233.28]>

Stovers:
I asked Horea to expand an earlier request with only selling
charcoal - and so feel this is an area where some members may be able to
help. I also told him of our interest in using the "waste" gases and gave
him earlier our web addresses.

Horea - can you give more information on the price of wood - what is the
quantity you are referring to below?

What method are you hoping to use for manufacture of charcoal?

Ron

>Dear sirs,
>
>We are a little company located in Transilvania , Romania and we want to
>start a charcoal business here because the wood are not expansive and I
>think that can be a good business.
>If anybody can help us with information about the technology, stoves,
>charcoal international prices, IEC ....etc I kindly ask to do it.
>If anybody want to work with us please tell us.
>For your information here in Romania the wood price for charcoal sticks
>is about 8 USD.
>
>Thanking you for your kind attention,
>
>All the best,
>
>Horea opre
>
>horeaopre@yahoo.com
>
>Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>Stoves Webpage
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Tue Sep 14 18:14:04 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forward David Dyjack on respiration samples
Message-ID: <v01540b02b4045eaff75d@[204.131.233.3]>

David - I will respond separately on my own interest in Ethiopia and your
results - not on how to publish.

Ron

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Tue Sep 14 18:14:16 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding a new member introduction
Message-ID: <v01540b04b40470ff3b8c@[204.131.233.3]>

Alvin: Again, welcome. In the future, feel free to send messages directly
to "stoves@crest.org"

Stovers: In response to my earlier invitation, Alvin has sent in this
brief introduction - all of which is new to me. I add a few comments in
response to his questions and interests - and hope others will also -
prefereably through the full list, since this is a new topic.

>Sir:
>Thanks for including me in your network of people with interest in
>stoves. I am an Agricultural Engineer working as a Research Specialist
>in the National Tobacco Administration here in the northern Philippines
>(where most flue-cured tobacco is grown). I had an MEng at Asian
>Institute of Technology major in Energy Technology and my Ph.D. from
>Univ. of Tsukuba in Japan.

I believe that we have one or more members on the list who are
associated with the Asian Institute of Technology. I don't think we have
any members from Japan.

>My present job entails finding ways to minimize if not
>eliminate the use of fuelwood in curing tobacco- either
>thru barn modification, fuel substitution etc. At present about 10-15%
>of the farmers in the region are using coal briquettes for curing- the
>rest still use
>fuelwood. Discussions in this network are very much
>related to wood/coal furnace for tobacco. The problems are the same-
>smoke production, low efficiency, substandard chimneys, etc. Any other
>stover who has experience in tobacco flue-curing ? I will be very
>grateful to contact him for exchange of ideas and share
>our experience here.

I remember seeing a number of solar energy publications on tobacco
drying. If you have not looked at "crop drying" literature, perhaps you
should.

On this list, there has been much discussion of using the large
amount of "waste heat" from charcoal making to economic benefit. I urge
you to see if the use of waste products such as sawdust might be possible.
See especially continuing reports from Elsen Karstad.

Please keep us informed of your success or problems. Ron

>
>Thanks...
>
>ALVIN D. GLOVA. Ph.D.
>Chief Science Research Specialist
>Post Production and Engineering Division
>National Tobacco Administration
>Batac 2906, Ilocos Norte
>PHILIPPINES
>
>alvinglova@yahoo.com
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Tue Sep 14 21:55:36 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding information on a book
Message-ID: <v01540b02b404a7009fe3@[204.131.233.40]>

Stovers: I try to avoid sending on commercial offerings, but the following
being sent by the author is certainly out of the ordinary and may be of
interest to several of us.

Nabi: As you seem to know, our "stoves" list has indeed spoken favorably
about samovar designs in the past. However, our interest is mainly on such
items as efficiency. Have you covered this topic in your book?

Please let me know if you are interested in joining our "stoves" list.

Ron

>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:51:48 -0400
>From: Nabi Israfil <filcaravan@worldnet.att.net>
>Organization: FIL CARAVAN INC.
>X-Accept-Language: en,tr,pl
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: larcon@sni.net
>Subject: book
>
>We noticed your site contained references to SAMOVARS. "The most
>efficient way to boil water, prior to the invention of the electric
>coffee
>pot." Please consider.....the following book:
>
>
> Book:
>SAMOVARS: The Art of the Russian Metalworkers
>ISBN: 0-9629138-0-4 (In English) US $25.00
>
> Illustrated with 56 figures, photos, drawings and
> a map.
>
> SAMOVARS: The Art of the Russian Metalworkers
> written by Mehmet Nabi Israfil
>
> The idea was to provide collectors and novices alike a background
> history and a full description of typical Russian Samovars. This is a
>
> what-to-look-for spiral bound book, with 56 figures including photos,
>
>drawings, and a map. The reader will find recipes, charts, and tables
>showing a
>list of makers, dates, and the cities of production...which make this
> book a valuable companion to those who have Russian samovars and
> to those contemplating the purchase of their first samovar.
>
>
>Features:
>
> The Table of Contents of this book:
>
> ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
> PREFACE
> INTRODUCTION
> EARLY DEVELOPMENT
> HISTORY
> MATERIALS USED
> METHODS, FORMS & SIZES
> PARTS OF A SAMOVAR
> SEALS - STAMPS - MEDALLIONS
> HOW TO USE A SAMOVAR
> RECIPES
> TABLES
> CYRILLIC ALPHABET
> LIST OF TZARS
> BIBLIOGRAPHY
> INDEX
>
> Specifications:
>
> Spiral bound, written in English
> 82 pages
> 56 illustrations
> BW photos of many styles and shapes
> detailed drawings showing internal views of samovars and
> parts
> map
> tables listing makers alphabetically, chronologically, and by
> city of production
>
> Manufactured
> by:
> Fil Caravan
> Inc.
>
> Year:
> 1990
>
> Made in USA
>
>
> Payment Methods:
> Diner's Club, Discover, Master Card, Visa, personal &
> company checks, money orders & wire transfers
>
>Order from your nearest book store,
> or
> Fax your name telephone # and fax # to 212-421-5976 for an order
> form,
> or
> E-mail your name telephone # and fax # to
>filcaravan@worldnet.att.net for
>an
> order form.
>
>
> FIL CARAVAN INC.
> 240 East 56th Street, Suite 2E, New York, NY, 10022 United States of
> America
> Tel: 212-421-5972 Fax: 212-421-5976
>
>Check out our site at filcaravan.com &
>citysearch.com/nyc/filcaravan
>
>Thank you again for your consideration.
>
>Nabi Israfil

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Sep 15 07:54:06 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: GAS-L: MSDS for Gasification Tars
Message-ID: <6e92d41b.2510e39c@cs.com>

Dear James, Cordoner et al:

Tars aren't great either in gasifiers or cigarettes, but don't panic. My
mother smoked from age 20 to 85 and died of other causes at 90. Surely we
non-smokers will live an extra 15 years?

Two kinds of "tar" exist.

A. Those formed at temperatures below about 600C are relatively benign and
are the monomers, oligomers and fragments of cellulose, hemicellulose and
lignin.

I prefer to call these compounds "wood oil" rather than tar (by analogy to
coal oil) = kerosene). They are typically lower in viscosity than "tar".
They are typically not strong caracinogens, but I'm sure if you painted
enough mouse ears with enough of any compound the mouse would develop lumps.
(These are the components being researched as pyrolysis oil fuels.)

B. Those vapors that have seen temperatures above 700 C reform into what
were called "coal tars" and are now called PAHs or PNAs. They include such
dueseys as benz-a-pyrene, as well as many other known carcinogens. Chimney
sweeps developed cancer of the scrotum early on to alert the rest of us.
Avoid them like the plague. They are very similar in composition whether
they come from coal, biomass or petroleum. (Some kind of pseudo equilibrium
on the way to soot, I believe.)

On the other hand, I know people who willingly drop cooking fat onto live
coals (T > 700C) and survive for quite long periods.

If you don't want to die, don't get born.

Cheers, TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 9/13/99 4:25:34 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
james@sri.org.au writes:

<<

For those who might be wondering MSDS = Material Safety Data Sheet Most
workplace health and safety legislation requires that personnel working
with any chemical have read and understood the hazards and risks associated
with whatever they are handling. I presume it is common knowledge that tars
are a chemical cocktail which includes both potential and known carcinogens
(similar to those often found in wood smoke).

Good question Dr. Peacocke, I would be surprised if there was an MSDS for
tar. Perhaps those who produced the tar sampling protocol have something ,
see http://btg.ct.utwente.nl/Projects/558/ .

Regards

James Joyce
Sugar Research Institute
Mackay Qld. Australia

"Dr. C. Peacocke" <cpeacocke@care.demon.co.uk>@crest.org on 13/09/99
17:11:08

Please respond to gasification@crest.org

Sent by: owner-gasification@crest.org

To: gasification@crest.org
cc:
Subject: GAS-L: MSDS for Gasification Tars

Dear Group,

I am currently involved with some work on a small-scale downdraft gasifier
in the UK and I was wondering if anyone was aware of MSDS for gasifier
tars. I haven't come across anything in the literature and I would
appreciate it if someone could either supply me with a copy or point me in
the right direction.

Any other related health and safety aspects of gasifiers would also be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Cordner Peacocke

>>
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Sep 15 07:54:35 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Respiration samples
Message-ID: <465258a5.2510e391@cs.com>

Dear Dave, Ron et al:

I believe it is obvious to all humans that it is not good to breathe smoke.
Those who have no alternatives do and die and those who have alternatives
don't ... they will probably die from other causes eventually.

I have long known of Kirk Smith's excellent measurements on respiration
problems from stoves and they have been a driving force in my work on
gasifier stoves. Wood stoves smoke!

However, I hope we won't have to measure smoke inhalation in country A, B, C,
... ad infinitum to refine the problem more and more. Much better to spend
that time on FIXING the problem, once you are convinced that you shouldn't
breathe smoke (and CO and other components).

~~~~~

I remember when I first went to SERI/NREL in 1978 being shocked to find that
there were millions of dollars available for satellite surveys of the amount
of biomass available - but very little money available for improved methods
of converting waste biomass into fuels and energy. That situation still
prevails. Fun to measure the problem again; no money to fix it.

Sorry for my tirade, but I really would like to get on with fixing the stove
problem rather than redefining it again.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 9/14/99 4:21:03 PM Mountain Daylight Time, larcon@sni.net
writes:

<<
> Greetings:
>
>I've just completed a four week field survey in Western Ethiopia where we
>collected short term and long term time weighted average respirable mass
>fraction particulate exposure samples (using NIOSH method 0600) on women who
>use traditional 3-stone cookstoves. We obtained both personal breathing zone
>samples and area samples inside peoples homes, including overnight exposure
>data. The goal of the research is to develop a 24 hour time weighted average
>exposure profile for this population. Do listserve members have any
>recommendations for peer-refereed journal(s) that might be most appropriate
>for publication of this type of research? Thanks in advance.
>
>Dave Dyjack
>>
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni Wed Sep 15 23:24:00 1999
From: rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni (Rogerio Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: tobacco and fuelwood in the Philippines
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990915195843.007f13a0@pop.sdnnic.org.ni.>

>
>
>>My present job entails finding ways to minimize if not
>>eliminate the use of fuelwood in curing tobacco- either
>>thru barn modification, fuel substitution etc. At present about 10-15%
>>of the farmers in the region are using coal briquettes for curing- the
>>rest still use
>>fuelwood.

Alvin: If one of your problems is "deforestation" related to the demand of
fuelwood for tobacco curing, I have seen in Honduras tobacco companies
working with surrounding farmers to stablish an energy plantation to
sustain their fuelwood demand. Also in Brazil there good examples of
associations for fuelwood replacement among consuming industries and
surrounding farmers.

rogerio
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda
Coordinador Proyecto EMOLEP
CATIE - PROLEÑA
Apartado Postal C-321
Managua, Nicaragua
TELEFAX (505) 276 2015, 270 5448
EMAIL: rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From spsyong at tm.net.my Sat Sep 18 12:29:59 1999
From: spsyong at tm.net.my (Peter Wong)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Fw: bamboo fires
Message-ID: <199909181629.MAA02606@solstice.crest.org>

Dear Sir,

I was redirected to your email address concerning = the above. Do you
think you can help?

Thanks & Regards,

Peter

-----Original = Message-----
From: Jim Moore jmoore@netidea.com>
To: = cpm-l@world.std.com cpm-l@world.std.com>
Cc:= spsyong@tm.net.my spsyong@tm.net.my>
Date: Saturday, September 18, 1999 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: bamboo fires

dear Peter
Check out this site- they = are already working on stoves for the
third world from local material STOVES
stoves@crest.org>
John G- are = you there-for more recent site?
Yrs
Jim

Contact = Information
>
> First Name: Peter
> Last Name: Wong
> City: Kuala Lumpur
> State:
> = Country: Malaysia
> E-Mail: = spsyong@tm.net.my
>
> = ; Description
> > Home Owner: Source
> Chimney Sweep:
> Vendor:
>
> = ; Home Heating = Information
>
> GAS:
> OIL: ON
> WOOD:
> OTHER: ON
> Fireplaces: 1
> Stoves: 1
>
> = ; Smoke Signal = Question
>
> Main Concern was entered as:
>
> Dear sir,
> > I need your help. I have just returned from a church mission = trip to
> Northern Thailand, near Chiangrai. One of the missionaries = there
told me
> that the bamboo homes that the Lahu tribes built catch fire = easily
if they
> are not careful. You see, they build their fires inside = their
bamboo homes
> and do their cooking there. When a fire starts, = usually it will spread
> through the neighbourhood, sometimes bringing down a = few houses
with it.
> When they do their cooking, the whole house will = also be filled
with smoke.
> I am thinking of how to help them build a = chimney which I think
will solve
> the problems of smoke and fires. With a = chimney and a fireplace,
they can
> cook in the fire place too. The fire = will also be contained! I am
not an
> expert in this. Can you suggest = something for these folks up in
Thailand.
> Maybe you can send a = drawing/proposal of what type of chimney will suit
> them. The tribes are very poor = and the materials available to them
freely
> is mud, clay, and river sand. = Cement and bricks are available but I
don't
> think they can afford it. = One or two of them might be able to purchase
> bricks and cement.
> > Thanks for reading this. You may email me or fax me. My fax = number is
> 03-7849402.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From larcon at sni.net Sat Sep 18 22:25:08 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding request for help on stove pipe design
Message-ID: <v01540b02b409c17cb52d@[204.131.233.32]>

Stovers:

This following "bounced" message is hard to figure out - I'm not
sure who Peter, Johm, and Jim are. But the basic issue is a good one -
that of finding a good stove pipe material (with special concerns for
flammable roof material).

Has any list member done any comparative studies for pipe material
- concrete sewer pipe, metal pipe, bricks, etc.? Especially coss and
lifetime?

Any thoughts of help to pass on to this group in Thailand? Has
anyone ever seen or built a stove pipe out of scrap materials (so as to
keep the costs down)?

Peter, Jim, and John - This is not a new problem for this list. But we
have never discussed the topic in detail. Please give us some more detail
on the present type of cookfires, the way that fires are starting, the
availability of stove pipe materials, etc.

Ron

>
>Dear Sir,
>
>I was redirected to your email address concerning the above. Do you
>think you can help?
>
>Thanks & Regards,
>
>Peter
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Moore <jmoore@netidea.com>
>To: cpm-l@world.std.com <cpm-l@world.std.com>
>Cc: spsyong@tm.net.my <spsyong@tm.net.my>
>Date: Saturday, September 18, 1999 8:43 AM
>Subject: Re: bamboo fires
>
>
>dear Peter
> Check out this site- they are already working on stoves for the third
>world from local material STOVES
><stoves@crest.org>
>John G- are you there-for more recent site?
>Yrs
>Jim
>
> <><><>Contact Information<><><>
>>=20
>> First Name: Peter
>> Last Name: Wong
>> City: Kuala Lumpur
>> State:
>> Country: Malaysia
>> E-Mail: spsyong@tm.net.my
>>=20
>> <><><>Description<><><>
>>=20
>> Home Owner: Source
>> Chimney Sweep:
>> Vendor:
>>=20
>> <><><>Home Heating Information<><><>
>>=20
>> GAS:
>> OIL: ON
>> WOOD:
>> OTHER: ON
>> Fireplaces: 1
>> Stoves: 1
>>=20
>> <><><>Smoke Signal Question<><><>
>>=20
>> Main Concern was entered as:
>>=20
>> Dear sir,
>>=20
>> I need your help. I have just returned from a church mission trip to
>> Northern Thailand, near Chiangrai. One of the missionaries there told
>me
>> that the bamboo homes that the Lahu tribes built catch fire easily if
>they
>> are not careful. You see, they build their fires inside their bamboo
>homes
>> and do their cooking there. When a fire starts, usually it will spread
>> through the neighbourhood, sometimes bringing down a few houses with
>it.
>> When they do their cooking, the whole house will also be filled with
>smoke.
>> I am thinking of how to help them build a chimney which I think will
>solve
>> the problems of smoke and fires. With a chimney and a fireplace, they
>can
>> cook in the fire place too. The fire will also be contained! I am not
>an
>> expert in this. Can you suggest something for these folks up in
>Thailand.
>> Maybe you can send a drawing/proposal of what type of chimney will
>suit
>> them. The tribes are very poor and the materials available to them
>freely
>> is mud, clay, and river sand. Cement and bricks are available but I don't
>> think they can afford it. One or two of them might be able to purchase
>> bricks and cement.
>>
>> Thanks for reading this. You may email me or fax me. My fax number is
>> 03-7849402.

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Sat Sep 18 22:25:26 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding more information on samovars
Message-ID: <v01540b06b409f4d2c4dd@[204.131.233.32]>

stovers - The following additional useful and interesting information came
in from Nabi Israfil on the book he has written on samovars. Please honor
Nabi's request that attribution be given if anything is reproduced

Nabi: I have started your (free) subscription to "stoves". Thank you for
forwarding the following interesting excepts from your book.

I need to ask again about efficiency. Because the samovar is
reported to be quite efficient, many of us would be interested in knowing
th amount of water that could be brought to a boiling water temperature for
a measured amount of wood (or charcoal). In your research, did you ever
find such technical information?

Welcome to our group.

Ron

Dear Ronal:
> Thank you for the “exception” in considering my book.
>
> The following excerpts from the book,
> SAMOVARS: The Art of the Russian Metalworkers, © Mehmet Nabi Israfil, 1990,
> may answer some of your questions:
>
> “...When using a traditional samovar, first the tank is filled with cold
> water. Then, live charcoal is placed in the tube (chimney) which passes up
> through the center of the tank, which in turn boils the water surrounding it.
> The hot water is drawn from the reservoir or tank by a spigot or a faucet.
> Until the 20th century, the samovar was the most efficient way devised to
> boil water quickly, consuming the least amount of precious fuel, mainly wood
> or charcoal.
>
> Originally, samovars were made to burn charcoal. In the late 19th century
> some
> were made with oil or kerosene burners at the bottom. New samovars and some
> of the older ones are often electrified by adding heater coils inside the
> chimney. We can appreciate samovars more if we consider how convenient it is
> for us today to have an electric coffee maker. With a timer and thermostat,
> it quickly boils the water, brews the coffee or tea, and keeps it hot until
> ready to serve.... “ Page 2.
>
> “...THE BYPRODUCTS
>
> As water is boiled, dissolved minerals such as calcium are precipitated out
> and
> adhere to the walls of the vessel. In heavily used samovars, the inside walls
> of the water tank accumulate a rock-like layer of calcium and other minerals.
> This was looked upon favorably because the increased leaching out of the
> minerals during the boiling process helps purify hard water. On the other
> hand, calcium, salts, minerals, and organic acids dissolved in hard water can
> sometimes interact with copper to form toxins. For this reason, all surfaces
> in contact with the water had to be tinned, nickelled, or silver-plated. As
> with other copper and brass cooking vessels, this lining prevented toxic
> reactions during the
> boiling of the water.
>
> When the mineral buildup is too much, then the heating efficiency of the
> samovar drops. Periodically this encrustation had to be cleaned out and the
> inside replated or retinned. This type of maintenance was commonly done by
> the local tinsmith. Often, gypsies travelled through villages repairing and
> tinning samovars along with other copper items. Many old samovars found today
> show varying degrees of use by the amount of mineral deposits found
> inside....” Page 20.
>
> ”...HOW TO USE A SAMOVAR
>
> ...PRECAUTIONS
> First, the dangers and the precautions to be taken when using any samovar.
> Make sure that the inside of the samovar to be used is clean, and properly
> tinned or plated. There should be no other metal showing through the tin.
> There should not be any green residue which is caused by the corrosion of
> copper or brass. Otherwise the samovar needs to be retinned or replated.
>
> If present, small amounts of calcium deposit can be easily dissolved away by
>
> pouring a bottle of white vinegar into the tank and then filling the rest of
> the tank with hot water. The acid solution will soften and dissolve the
> minerals overnight. Tin is soft and can be easily scratched. It is advisable
> that soap and a non metallic pad or cloth be used to clean out any remaining
> material. If there are green or red spots exposed after this treatment then
> the samovar needs to be retinned.
>
> Dealing with hot embers or making a fire directly in the chimney of the
> samovar has its own inherent dangers. First, the samovar should be placed on
> its tray away from any flammable materials in a well ventilated area. Aside
> from the obvious danger of starting a fire near the samovar, the carbon
> monoxide (a poisonous gas produced by burning charcoal or wood) poses a
> danger as well....” Page 48
>
> ...Having observed the above precautions, one can proceed by first filling
> the samovar tank with cold water. To prevent damage to the samovar, there
> should always be water in the samovar before attempting to fire it up...
> ...Then, from a going fire, remove hot glowing embers with a pair of tongs or
> a small shovel. Live wood charcoal, or embers from a fireplace should be used
> for samovars. Briquettes or coal should not be used. The smoke and noxious
> fumes are less when wood or wood charcoal is used. Since the opening at the
> top of the chimney is narrow, it is usually more convenient to drop the hot
> embers into it with tongs. Put enough glowing embers in until the chimney is
> a little more than half full. Remember that air is coming up from the bottom
> of the samovar providing oxygen for the embers to burn. Do not fill the
> chimney to the top. This is not necessary and it prevents the air from
> circulating and snuffs out the fire. It is a good practice not to put embers
> above the high water mark. Then place the chimney extension on top of the
> chimney. This improves the convection causing the embers to burn hotter.
> This method causes the least amount of smoke while the water is being warmed
> up. If necessary, add more live embers to bring the water to a boil.
>
> Once the embers are in the chimney, the water usually boils within 15
> minutes.
> After the water is boiling, remove the chimney extension using its wooden
> handle. The embers will continue to burn until the fire extinguishes
> itself,...” Page 50.
> © Mehmet Nabi Israfil, 1990.
>
> The above quoted texts are “free” for redistribution to your members only.
> My only request is that the book title and author be referenced as well in
> any redistribution.
>
> I would be interested in joining your “stoves” list. I have not explored all
> of your site. What does joining the list mean? As it relates to samovars I
> would indeed like to hear from members. Thanking you in advance for your kind
> consideration,
>
> Nabi
>
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Sun Sep 19 16:23:07 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding Wong on Malaysian stove design
Message-ID: <v01540b00b40af73e59ab@[204.131.233.34]>

Stovers: Here is more detail from Peter Wong. Any more suggestions to
provide? I'll try to add more later, but know of no easy fix. Ron

>
>Dear Ronald,
>
>Hi, It's Peter here. I'm wrting from Kuala Lumpur. I'm the one who
>started this thing! I was the one who wrote to chimneys.com for help and
>they asked me to look you up.
>
>Having read my mail, do you think you can offer some suggestions. As for
>special roofing materials, there is no way the hill tribes can afford it.
>They use dry grass for their roof, a very flammable material. Their walls
>are made of bamboo. You are right about "concerns for flammable roof
>material". It is usually the roof that catches fire first. Their houses
>are either built on stilts or just on the mud ground. They do most of
>their cooking inside their house (I wonder why)? Maybe it's for warming up
>the house during the cold days. They usually light a fire to make tea for
>their visitors who are usually seated around the fire. Probably their
>tradition and culture of showing hospitality. Maybe that's why the fire is
>in the house.
>
>I am thinking of a very simple stove, made of bricks placed right under
>the chimney. They can do all their cooking there and the fire can warm
>their homes atthe same time. The smoke and fire will be contained within
>the fireplace. My only concern is the roof. What if burning ashes lands on
>the roof? Can we have some kind of grill/wire mesh placed across the
>chimney chute to keep the ashes down while allowing the smoke to go
>through? Can we place flattened bamboos over the grass roofs around the
>chimney area. The bamboos take longer to catch fire.
>
>Just some suggestions of my own. I'm not an expert in this. Maybe you can
>offer some expetise on this.
>
>Thanks for your time and concern.
>
>Best regards,
>Peter Wong

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From jrleon at micron.net Mon Sep 20 10:00:34 1999
From: jrleon at micron.net (Joe Leonard)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding Wong on Malaysian stove design
In-Reply-To: <v01540b00b40af73e59ab@[204.131.233.34]>
Message-ID: <37E5A480.B08FDD2D@micron.net>

If it is available, a mix of boric acid and borax is an excellent fire
inhibitor. It is sprayed on the dry grass.

Ronal W. Larson wrote:

> Stovers: Here is more detail from Peter Wong. Any more suggestions to
> provide? I'll try to add more later, but know of no easy fix. Ron
>
> >
> >Dear Ronald,
> >
> >Hi, It's Peter here. I'm wrting from Kuala Lumpur. I'm the one who
> >started this thing! I was the one who wrote to chimneys.com for help and
> >they asked me to look you up.
> >
> >Having read my mail, do you think you can offer some suggestions. As for
> >special roofing materials, there is no way the hill tribes can afford it.
> >They use dry grass for their roof, a very flammable material. Their walls
> >are made of bamboo. You are right about "concerns for flammable roof
> >material". It is usually the roof that catches fire first. Their houses
> >are either built on stilts or just on the mud ground. They do most of
> >their cooking inside their house (I wonder why)? Maybe it's for warming up
> >the house during the cold days. They usually light a fire to make tea for
> >their visitors who are usually seated around the fire. Probably their
> >tradition and culture of showing hospitality. Maybe that's why the fire is
> >in the house.
> >
> >I am thinking of a very simple stove, made of bricks placed right under
> >the chimney. They can do all their cooking there and the fire can warm
> >their homes atthe same time. The smoke and fire will be contained within
> >the fireplace. My only concern is the roof. What if burning ashes lands on
> >the roof? Can we have some kind of grill/wire mesh placed across the
> >chimney chute to keep the ashes down while allowing the smoke to go
> >through? Can we place flattened bamboos over the grass roofs around the
> >chimney area. The bamboos take longer to catch fire.
> >
> >Just some suggestions of my own. I'm not an expert in this. Maybe you can
> >offer some expetise on this.
> >
> >Thanks for your time and concern.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >Peter Wong
>
> Ronal W. Larson, PhD
> 21547 Mountsfield Dr.
> Golden, CO 80401, USA
> 303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
> larcon@sni.net
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Tue Sep 21 12:19:04 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding Jim Moore on Malaysian stove design
Message-ID: <v01540b01b40d51c00950@[204.131.233.9]>

Stovers: The following are some useful suggestions. I had forgotten about
the use of wood and clay (as well as stones and clay) for chimney
construction. Anyone have any recent experience with these?

The cost of $50 could be beyond the local means - but maybe Peter
or others could comment on available funds.

Jim: Thanks for chiming in. Ron

(The rest from Jim:)
>
> From what I recall in a similar need situation, the bricks were
>enclosed with a cheap iron plate on top for cooking
>and an pipe elbow out the back and up through the roof with a roof jack
>[ just a bigger pipe for raDIATION protection
>and support]
> Someone has to procure the right matrerial such as iron - trade ?- I
>suppose if it is desperation measure then if there
>is a blue clay available then bamboo sticks in a flat triangle built up
>with clay through out might do it - the early
>pioneers in the new world made a chimney with light logs and clay if no
>stones were available.
> ideally one needs an iron pot as well as metal cooking serface
> Cheap little tin stove heaters are available here with flip top foot
>mechanism - hooked up to 7 feet of 6 inch pipe with
>a safe roof exit would sure do the job in a jiffy- dont know where they
>are made but wholesale the whole shebang
>shouldant cost more than 50 bucks.
> Where do these people live? If some proper units were assembled in
>there sounds like it might motivate some kind of
>local initiative for them? Aren't there organizations Oxfam, Un , world
>vision etc that have already gone over this
>ground?
>my .02
>Jimbo

From larcon at sni.net Tue Sep 21 12:19:19 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding John Crouch on Malaysian stoves
Message-ID: <v01540b04b40d5c1a77f6@[204.131.233.9]>

To Peter Wong and other Stovers: John Crouch is very active in the North
American stove industry. I second his comments on doing a better job in
reducing smoke - which can be found in our archives under "charcoal-making
stoves" (known by several other names as well). But the exact "low-smoke"
design should be based on local cooking techniques - about which we still
know little.

John makes the same point of a need for testing with respect to
chimneys. I wonder if anyone on the list has ever tried to make a chimney
out of used "tin cans" - which can perhaps be "squeezed" together to make
an adequate and low cost "stove pipe".

If it seems like you are not finding a quick fix answer here - be
assured that you are talking to a group which is trying to solve what may
be the world's biggest energy problem. There are many things that can be
done if you have funds. The options are very limited for the very poor.
But there are options - it is just that they need more financial support.
As John has said below - we on this list need more data to be able to be
more supportive.

>
>Peter, many of the people on this list have extensive experience in
>developing stoves which produce so little smoke, that they make a
>chimney less important. There are others who recognize that while
>your contacts may naturally be most interested in fire safety, the
>other 'hidden' issue here may well be an a high rate of respiratory
>problems for women, and especially small children. Both of these
>discussion on in our archives, & I'd encourage you to read the entire
>archive.
>
>As for chimney's, here are some more questions, and some suggestions.
>1)How big are the fires, and what do they burn? (i.e. length, size,
>species)?

>2)Can their bamboo framework support some slight weight of a chimney
>so that it could be suspended over the fire, or must it be supported
>from the ground?

>3) Can you build a model of the hut and roof, so that you can test
>various ideas prior to suggesting them? (Any suggestions that are
>not fully tested would not be ethical).

>4) One possibility might be old muffler pipe, which is relatively
>easily bent.

>5) Obviously you would need to design a simple but effective cap, and
>spark guard. (AND TEST IT)

>6) There must be some type of 'thimble' for passing the hot pipe
>through the (very) flammable roof. There are a number of approaches
>here, but the lowest cost idea is to use multiple air spaces.

>7) In developed countries any idea related to fire safety and venting
>is test with a fire that is several times hotter that the average user
>might encounter. This is why, if you are serious about this, that you
>will have to set up a test rig, and burn some wood. Once you have
>made provisions for this, you might also find access to a scanner and
>a web site so you can post pictures and drawings of you tests. At
>that point, this group will begin to give you much more feedback.

>Good Luck
>
>John Crouch
>Hearth Products Association
>www.heathassoc.org

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Sep 22 08:59:29 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Stove chimneys
Message-ID: <885b540a.251a2d58@cs.com>

Dear stovers:

Ron said

<< John makes the same point of a need for testing with respect to
chimneys. I wonder if anyone on the list has ever tried to make a chimney
out of used "tin cans" - which can perhaps be "squeezed" together to make
an adequate and low cost "stove pipe".

My hardware store has a "CRIMPER" that crimps the rim of a pipe or tin can so
that it will fit snugly into the rim of another can or pipe the same size.
One can also do the same with more labor using long noze pliers.

Maybe a little more time spent in the shop and a little less theorizing on
the web would produce more results. So what am I doing here instead of in my
garage?

Yours truly, TOM REED

(PS: Don't forget that my 3 watt blower produces the draft of a 30 foot
chimney. Chimneys require wasting a lot of hot gas to do their job. )

From elk at net2000ke.com Thu Sep 23 05:48:55 1999
From: elk at net2000ke.com (e. karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Rubber as Fuel?
Message-ID: <v01510100b40faa86c856@[195.202.65.75]>

I'd be very interested in working with the group toward a scrap rubber
fueled stove. Old tires are an environmental nuisance around the globe.

Have any of the list members worked with rubber as a fuel?

What's the calorific value of rubber- I understand it's very high.

Is the black sooty smoke combustable in any way? Maybe with the injection
of secondary air?

Does soot production vary over a range of combustion chamber temperatures?

What is the composition of the black smoke? Is it particularly toxic?

rgds;

elk

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:
E.L. Karstad :
P.O. Box 24371 :
Nairobi, Kenya :
Fax/tel 884437 :
elk@net2000ke.com :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'

From english at adan.kingston.net Thu Sep 23 21:56:41 1999
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Rubber as Fuel?
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b40faa86c856@[195.202.65.75]>
Message-ID: <199909240200.WAA10471@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Elsen,
I just had to try. So I put a layer of rubber chunks in with the
wood pellets in my version of Tom Reed's Turbo stove. Predictably
when the pyrolysis front reached the layer of rubber the secondary
air needed to be increased to keep pace with higher rates of fuel
volatization. In this state the stove roared like a rocket for a few
minutes before returning to its pellet fuelled calm. There was no
black smoke or any visible smoke. The forced air helps a lot.
Carbonized rubber was left over. It might make an interesting
briquette.

> I'd be very interested in working with the group toward a scrap rubber
> fuelled stove. Old tires are an environmental nuisance around the globe.

I hope someone comments on the current state of rubber incineration.
Specifically, how it differs from wood. It is clear from my
experiment that the bulk of the smoke is consumed under the same
parameters as wood smoke. The difficulty for stoves may be in
maintaining optimum conditions during ' turn down'. It may be a more
suitable fuel for other purposes. At any rate, it will require
modifying a design like the Turbo. Try a 4-5cm diameter fuel chamber
and/ or a larger blower for more secondary air. The blower I use is
quite a bit more powerful than the one Tom uses, but it was still
marginal in this case.

> Does soot production vary over a range of combustion chamber temperatures?

Soot formation, which is not the same as smoke, is another
interesting topic which is not completely understood. The oil fired
boilers here have a nasty habit of filling up with soot if excess air
is reduced a little to much. What is interesting is that this
happens before there is any increase in stack CO levels.
With many wood burners, black soot can be relatively rare. Even when
there is plenty of smoke. This is clear when doing particulate
emissions testing as any soot will be visually dominant on the
collection filters.

All for now, Alex

> rgds;
>
>
> elk
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:
> E.L. Karstad :
> P.O. Box 24371 :
> Nairobi, Kenya :
> Fax/tel 884437 :
> elk@net2000ke.com :
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'
>
>
> Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> Stoves Webpage
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>
Alex English
RR 2 Odessa Ontario
Canada K0H 2H0
Tel 1-613-386-1927
Fax 1-613-386-1211

From larcon at sni.net Sun Sep 26 16:57:53 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding Israfil on samovars
Message-ID: <v01540b06b41431d79c07@[204.131.233.42]>

Nabi - Thanks for this additional information. We will look forward to
receiving the coming data. Ron

>Dear Ronal:
>
>Thank you for my subscription to "stoves" and for distributing the
>excerpts from my
>book. I hope your members find it useful.
>
>As for your specific efficiency related question, I have not collected nor
>encountered such data. I can tell you that the next time I fire up a
>samovar (in
>the next few weeks), I will try to gather the type of data you are
>seeking. I'll
>measure the volume of water, the water's starting temperature, the weight
>of the
>unlit charcoal & the kindling's weight, the starting time, and the time at
>boiling
>point.
>I'll repeat the same with hot charcoal embers each weighed just prior to
>insertion
>into the samovars chimney.
> I'll report it to your site. You or other members can do the calculations
>of its
>"efficiency."
>
>Nabi

Nabi Israfil <filcaravan@worldnet.att.net>

From larcon at sni.net Mon Sep 27 09:38:57 1999
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: Forwarding Eindhoven student group request
Message-ID: <v01540b00b415244e6f33@[204.131.233.14]>

Stovers:
The following is a request for help in a student project. I don't
feel we have a lot to offer because of the emphasis on moist fuels. Any
help anyone can offer?

Pascal and other students:
Make sure you contact also the gasification and digestion groups
within crest as well.
We have had quite a lot of discussion on this list on the subject
of using waste heat to dry incoming fuels which are to be pyrolyzed (to
produce charcoal). You should look at our archives on this subject.
However, starting with a slurry make me think that digestion is a better
approach.

Ron

> Eindhoven University of Technology
>
> MDP group 2 Green Waste
> kamer STO 3.41
> Postbus 513
> 5600 MB Eindhoven (Holland)
> tel: (0031)-(0)402475700
> email: mdp2.st@tue.nl <mailto:mdp2.st@tue.nl>
>
>
> Eindhoven, 22 September, 1999.
>
> We are students involved in a project concerning the
>combustion and
> gasification of biomass.
> Particularly we are searching information about the
>co-combustion of
> greenwaste with poultry manure. In our project, green waste
>is defined as
> the cuts of grass along highways, ecological control areas
>or city areas.
> Recently there has been published a report 'Durable energy
>generation by
> stacked poultry manure' by Mestac and DEP. In this report
>there was a
> reference to you. You have made a feasibility study for
>fluid bed
> combustion of poultry manure.
>
> We are interested in the results of this study because we
>may use them to
> make adjustments for the feasibility of co-combustion of
>greenwaste.
>
> If your company has got some information concerning this
>topic or any
> recommendations about other companies which are busy on
>this subject, we
> look
> forward to receive it.
>
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Pascal Jonkheijm
> MDP group 2 Green Waste
>
>
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Tue Sep 28 21:19:25 1999
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:23 2004
Subject: torrefied wood
Message-ID: <d2f04d05.2522c3ee@cs.com>

Jim et al:

I have been following the fortunes of "Torrefied wood" since about 1982 when
I met madame (?) from France who was instrumental in starting its
development. Since then a plant has been built in Spain to make and sell
torrefied wood, but I believe it has close down.

The success of making torrefied wood depends closely on the costs of
production and the need for reduced weight in shipping wood energy. Drying
wood is energy intensive; it takes relatively little energy to continue
beyond to super dry wood, ie torrefied. Quite possibly the process could be
justified for stove fuels.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 9/27/99 4:43:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
arcate@email.msn.com writes:

<<
Hello:

I recently received a 1991 FAO Publication, RUER Technical Series 20 :
"Charcoal Production & Pyrolysis Technology".

There is a paper on Torrefied Wood an alternative to charcoal.
Torrefaction occurs between 200 and 270 degrees C.
Test at 270 C. with a 1 1/2 hour conversion time, indicated a weight yield
of 80%, 28% fixed carbon and 22,680 kJ/kg. Energy conversion yields ranged
from 80 - 90%.

I have been proposing "high yield" biomass charcoal for use as a solid fuel
and for co-firing with coal, etc. Torrefied wood may be a more economical
approach.

Is anyone aware of any recent torrefied wood production projects ?

aloha,

Jim Arcate

>>
Stoves List SPONSORS and ARCHIVES:
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
Stoves Webpage
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

September 1999 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive