August 2000 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Thu Aug 3 11:10:03 2000
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:37 2004
Subject: Forwarding request on charcoal (from India)
In-Reply-To: <v01540b0ab59e2708a04d@[204.131.233.21]>
Message-ID: <13viosoie9jh652veqre3gbeufjn8g3god@4ax.com>

On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:31:40 -0600, you wrote:

>Stovers: Perhaps someone nearby (Priya?) in India could especially assist.

I see she replied with some practical results. I shall add a little
belated reply.

> 4. If a small amount (perhaps a kG) of ordinary, red-hot,
>just-produced charcoal was simply extinguished in a pail of polluted water,
>would you believe that there would be any significant cleanup of the water
>(after which the charcoal could be dried and used for cooking)?

I do not know how active this char would be. Activated charcoal tends
to be of animal origin (bone?). It has had its effective surface area
greatly increased by erosion of little pockets into the char matrix, I
gather this can be done by steam or carbon monoxide being reduce by
the hot char. ie molecules of carbon are removed from the surface.

The filtering effect may be mechanical or (as Professor Basu points
out) by adsorption. I understand adsorption effect is from weak Van
Der Waals (sp?) forces bonding the pollutants to the enhanced surface.
This these forces are related to electron densities so favour the
collection of large molecules whilst smaller molecules (water, oxygen
nitrogen etc pass through).

Also some pollutants will be highly reactive (chlorine?) and will
chemically react with the char.
AJH

The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From antal at wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu Thu Aug 3 13:56:25 2000
From: antal at wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu (Michael Antal)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Forwarding request on charcoal (from India)
In-Reply-To: <13viosoie9jh652veqre3gbeufjn8g3god@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPX.4.03.10008030753590.1130-100000@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu>

Dear Andrew: I would not be at all surprised by the effect you describe.
The iodine number of charcoal can be increased to a moderate value
(several hundred) by treatment of the charcoal with hot water. We
recently published a paper in Carbon which describes this and related
effects. I am happy to send you a copy of this paper. Regards, Michael
Antal.

On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Andrew Heggie wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:31:40 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Stovers: Perhaps someone nearby (Priya?) in India could especially assist.
>
> I see she replied with some practical results. I shall add a little
> belated reply.
>
> > 4. If a small amount (perhaps a kG) of ordinary, red-hot,
> >just-produced charcoal was simply extinguished in a pail of polluted water,
> >would you believe that there would be any significant cleanup of the water
> >(after which the charcoal could be dried and used for cooking)?
>
> I do not know how active this char would be. Activated charcoal tends
> to be of animal origin (bone?). It has had its effective surface area
> greatly increased by erosion of little pockets into the char matrix, I
> gather this can be done by steam or carbon monoxide being reduce by
> the hot char. ie molecules of carbon are removed from the surface.
>
> The filtering effect may be mechanical or (as Professor Basu points
> out) by adsorption. I understand adsorption effect is from weak Van
> Der Waals (sp?) forces bonding the pollutants to the enhanced surface.
> This these forces are related to electron densities so favour the
> collection of large molecules whilst smaller molecules (water, oxygen
> nitrogen etc pass through).
>
> Also some pollutants will be highly reactive (chlorine?) and will
> chemically react with the char.
> AJH
>
> The Stoves List is Sponsored by
> Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
> Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>

From riaannel at planetmls.co.za Thu Aug 3 18:57:33 2000
From: riaannel at planetmls.co.za (RIAAN NEL)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Retort for producing charcoal
Message-ID: <200008032257.PAA26043@secure.crest.net>

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:47:47 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFFAD4.6220F100"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
X-SLUIDL: 0BDF3802-666011D4-B5050010-5AC313BA

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFFAD4.6220F100
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi there
=20
On surfing the Web, I got to a letter addressed to you by a person =
looking for detals on the construction of a retort for making =
charcoal... My dad is looking for a diagram or description of the same =
thing, and I wondered if you can by any chance supply me with such info. =
He is planning to produce =B1 2 cub metre charcoal a day, and is =
looking for an oven which can be built with a small budget.
=20
Any website links or info will be appreciated.
=20
Regards
=20
=20
Riaan Nel
P O Box 2909
Krugersdorp
South Africa
1740

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFFAD4.6220F100
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
Hi there

On surfing the Web, I got to a letter addressed to = you by a=20 person
looking for detals on the construction of a retort for making =
charcoal...=20 My dad is looking for a diagram or description of the same
thing, and I = wondered=20 if you can by any chance supply me with such
info. He is = planning to=20 produce ± 2 cub metre charcoal a day, and is
looking for an oven = which=20 can be built with a small budget.

Any website links or info will be = appreciated.

Regards

Riaan Nel
P O Box 2909
Krugersdorp
South Africa
1740

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFFAD4.6220F100--

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sun Aug 6 09:21:59 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Activated Charcoal from gasifiers and stoves for water purification
Message-ID: <c4.774d696.26bec030@cs.com>

Dear Activated Charcoal Devotees:

WHAT I KNOW

Activated charcoal looks like cooking charcoal and is amazingly different,
having a surface of many square meters as measured either by absorbtion tests
(tricky) or iodine number (also starch No. etc.).

I suppose activated charcoal has been around three centuries (at least since
the advent of white sugar), but the understanding is new and rare and hard to
come by, since the commercial manufacturers don't tell and probably don't
know.

Activated charcoal could be very important for water quality around the world
if it was easier to make. The standard recipe is to heat conventional (20%
volatile) charcoal in a rotary kiln and pass CO2, H2O through it for an hour.
That will get you an iodine number > 1000.

I visited the Jack Daniels plant in Kentucky and saw a reasonable open air
charcoal process that they use to produce the charcoal that takes the
headache out of whiskey.

The charcoal made in fires etc. normally has an iodine number <100, so only
has value if activated.

WHAT I SUSPECT

The conditions in a downdraft gasifier (charcoal at 700-900C) could sometimes
produce pretty high activation, but the time is usually too short. Agua Das
and I have discussed modivications to the gasifier that could make it an
activated charcoal gasifier. (Talk is cheap).

I was initially skeptical about Antal's comment below about activating with
hot water. It is possible that tarry gases passing over activated charcoal
are cleaned and the charcoal becomes de-activated. Mike Antal's comment
about hot water treatment could be a removal of these condensables.

As to dumping hot charcoal in a bucket of water to purify it, you really need
to pass the water slowly through an activated charcoal bed to remove the
impurities. And don't forget the charcoal does NOT remove pathogens, so you
still need chlorine or ozone treatment.

Yours truly, TOM REED

In a message dated 8/3/00 11:59:36 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
antal@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu writes:

<<
Dear Andrew: I would not be at all surprised by the effect you describe.
The iodine number of charcoal can be increased to a moderate value
(several hundred) by treatment of the charcoal with hot water. We
recently published a paper in Carbon which describes this and related
effects. I am happy to send you a copy of this paper. Regards, Michael
Antal.

On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Andrew Heggie wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:31:40 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Stovers: Perhaps someone nearby (Priya?) in India could especially
assist.
>
> I see she replied with some practical results. I shall add a little
> belated reply.
>
> > 4. If a small amount (perhaps a kG) of ordinary, red-hot,
> >just-produced charcoal was simply extinguished in a pail of polluted
water,
> >would you believe that there would be any significant cleanup of the water
> >(after which the charcoal could be dried and used for cooking)?
>
> I do not know how active this char would be. Activated charcoal tends
> to be of animal origin (bone?). It has had its effective surface area
> greatly increased by erosion of little pockets into the char matrix, I
> gather this can be done by steam or carbon monoxide being reduce by
> the hot char. ie molecules of carbon are removed from the surface.
>
> The filtering effect may be mechanical or (as Professor Basu points
> out) by adsorption. I understand adsorption effect is from weak Van
> Der Waals (sp?) forces bonding the pollutants to the enhanced surface.
> This these forces are related to electron densities so favour the
> collection of large molecules whilst smaller molecules (water, oxygen
> nitrogen etc pass through).
>
> Also some pollutants will be highly reactive (chlorine?) and will
> chemically react with the char.
> AJH
> >>
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From jovick at island.net Sun Aug 6 15:33:52 2000
From: jovick at island.net (John Flottvik)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Active charcoal
Message-ID: <000801bfffc3$80ab9fa0$6fb8fea9@jovick>

August 6, 2000

Tom Reed & Stovers

Dear Tom

Due to the fact I do not yet know to much about
Activating charcoal I will keep my comments short, I will however
pass on a few notes on the subject taken from two
books I borrowed from the Simon Fraser University in British
Columbia.
If anybody is intrested in these books, here is the
info on them.

Active Carbon;
Jankowska-Swiatkowski-Choma:of the military
technical academy, Warsaw
Translation:T.J.Kemp, Dept, Chem. Univ.
Warwick
Publishers: Ellis Horwood Ltd.
Market Cross House, Cooper St.
Chichester, West Sussex PO19 IED
England

Active Carbon
R.C.Bansl-Jean-Baptiste Donnet-Fritz Stoeckli-
Marcell Dekker,Inc.
270 Madison Ave. New York 10016
ISBN0-8247-7842-1

First, you are the only other person that has said,
beside the authors of the mentioned books that very little is known
about activating, etc. If you ask 10 Activators you
will likely get 10 different answers.
In 1900-1901 R-Ostrejko patented a activation
process using CO2.

The activation of charcoal with steam or CO2 at
temperatures of 800-900 c results in highly developed internal pore structure
with large surface areas. As high as 2000M2 per grams or 714, 000ft2 per ounce(
16 acres plus)
In activating carbon adsorption is selective,
favouring non-polar surfaces over polar, adsorption improves with increasing
pressure,
decreases with increasing temperature. Activations
is a treatment that opens enormous number of pores the 1.2-20 nanometer
range.For gas adsorption up to 100 nanometer diameter in the pores.

The book explains the Iodine test and it goes like
this:
Iodine adsorption is a simple and quick test to
estimate specific surface area. Iodine# is the number of milligrams of
iodine
adsorbed by 1 gram of carbon from aqueous
solution when iodine concentration of the residual filtrate is .02N

The books have to much to pass on, but I would like
to share two methods we are planning for our continuous process
charcoal
plant.As this will be trial and error, we welcome
feedback.

Our first plan; As the charcoal comes from our
reactor continuously as red hot sand at 800c, we will,( like my partner did
years ago at the plant he worked on) auger
inject this char into the bottom of our storage bin.The CO2 should activate the
charcoal in the bin. The way the bin fills by doing it this way is like a lava
dome raising,and the CO2 filter up and through the char.

#2 Again because we are continuous, the char will
exit the reactor at 800C, into another retort that will be fitted with
steam
nozzles.this steam process will take a minimum
of 1 hour thus activating our char on a continuous process
also.

We have been planning this plant for 3 years, and
are now in the position to start construction. Although this will be only a 2
retort pilot plant, we will be able to start testing, using a variety of organic
feed stock.

to close I again say we welcome feedback, advice or
criticism. For anyone else who is intrested in our project, you can
call
to

John
Flottvik J.F.Ventures Ltd

From larcon at sni.net Sun Aug 6 20:27:40 2000
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Improving Health and Safety in Developing Countries
Message-ID: <v01540b02b5b2531c2838@[204.131.233.10]>

Stovers:
The following is another in a series of excellent special reports
prepared for "stoves" by Cathy Flanders (coordinator of the IAQ list)

Kathy - Thanks again very much.

Ron

>From: Rkfabf@aol.com
>Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 16:13:15 EDT
>Subject: Improving Health and Safety in Developing Countries
>To: larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>Hello Ronal -
>
>Hope this finds you well. I didn't know if the Stoves Group would be
>interested in this but I felt certain that you probably correspond with a
>number of people that would have an interest.
>
>The AIHA [American Industrial Hygiene Association] On-Line publication: <A
>HREF="http://www.aiha.org/syn.html">THE SYNERGIST</A> [June/July 2000 Vol. 11
>No. 6/7 issue] focused the entire issue on Improving Health and Safety in
>Developing Countries.
>
> <A HREF="http://www.aiha.org/syn/rt2.html">Synergist Online: Improving
>Health and Safety in Developing Countries</A>
>http://www.aiha.org/syn/rt2.html
>
>Here's a bit of an update on the candle issue:
>
><A HREF="http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v284n2/full/jlt0712-6.html">JAMA
>Report Estimates Air Lead Levels From Some Candle Wicks At Up to 36 Times EPA
>Standard</A>
>http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v284n2/full/jlt0712-6.html
>
>Global Update:
>The UK has been considering a ban ever since Australia enacted one last year
>in Sept. but I don't think it's actually been legislated in the UK yet. Since
>New Zealand has just passed an identical ban to Australia's [which imposes
>very STIFF fines PER CANDLE] I imagine the UK will most likely be next. I
>wouldn't be at all surprised to see the European Union take a stand on this
>issue since the sale of lead in candles appears to be a clear-cut violation
>of the 1976 EEC [presently known as the EU] Directive 76/769 which bans &/or
>restricts the sale &/or use of specific dangerous & toxic substances. The
>Public Health Officials that I've communicated with in Canada indicate they
>to are eager to get a ban in place there but it looks like this is where it
>may run into some politics. NAFTA, I'm told, will apparently have to be
>considered.
>
>As you know there are Developing Countries where candles are still used as
>their primary source of household light. The risk of significant exposure &
>lead uptake is relative to the quantity of lead wicked candles burned, the
>duration of the burn & the air exchange rate or ventilation of the structure.
> Obviously this is worrisome in any situation; however, perhaps even more so
>in areas where the resources to inform, test & treat for lead exposure &
>poisoning are so limited or nonexistent. Which brings me to my next
>point... I'd like to ask a favor, if you have any contacts or acquaintances
>with any officials in the Health Departments of these countries would you
>mind forwarding some information to them or perhaps giving me their contact
>information so I can send them an information packet & correspond with them
>regarding this public health menace?
>
>As Always My Best to You -
> Cathy Flanders
> IAQ List Manager & Moderator
> E-Mail: iaq-owner@onelist.com
> Fax # 781-394-8288
> Personal E-Mail: RKFABF@aol.com
> Candles and Indoor Air Quality
> http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/
> <A HREF="http://disc.server.com/Indices/41692.html">Homeowners Soot Damage
>Discussion</A>
> http://disc.server.com/Indices/41692.html
> IAQ List - Home
> http://www.onelist.com/community/iaq
> IAQ List - Links
> http://www.onelist.com/links/iaq
>

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Aug 7 19:07:39 2000
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Forwarding request on charcoal (from India)
In-Reply-To: <13viosoie9jh652veqre3gbeufjn8g3god@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <pafuoskbjalaogicgvc581jdhrbl2bb8bn@4ax.com>

On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 07:56:18 -1000 (HST), you wrote:

>Dear Andrew: I would not be at all surprised by the effect you describe.
>The iodine number of charcoal can be increased to a moderate value
>(several hundred) by treatment of the charcoal with hot water. We
>recently published a paper in Carbon which describes this and related
>effects. I am happy to send you a copy of this paper. Regards, Michael
>Antal.

Michael,

Thanks for the response, the "effect" was in fact an observation made
by Ronal. Nonetheless I am interested in activation. Rather than you
send the paper (thanks for the offer) can you quote the reference? I
should be able to read it here as Carbon is a family interest.
AJH
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Mon Aug 7 19:46:34 2000
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Forwarding: "measuring flame temperature"
Message-ID: <v01540b00b5b496168807@[204.131.233.37]>

Stovers:
Anyone able to assist with this request for assistance? Ron

>From: "Hamilton, John (Minerals, Clayton)"
> <john.hamilton@minerals.csiro.au>
>To: "'owner-stoves@crest.org'" <owner-stoves@crest.org>
>Subject: measuring flame temperature
>Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:01:25 +1000
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>Dear sir/madam,
>I have recently read the topic on the web re "flame temperature
>measurement-thermocouples not!" I would be grateful if you would let me know
>what %error can be expected when measuring with a thermocouple vs a suction
>thermocouple. I presently measure flame temperature using a type R but am
>considering a suction thermocouple if the error is too great.
>thank you for your time
>John Hamilton
>

From antal at wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu Mon Aug 7 21:42:16 2000
From: antal at wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu (Michael Antal)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Forwarding request on charcoal (from India)
In-Reply-To: <pafuoskbjalaogicgvc581jdhrbl2bb8bn@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.HPX.4.03.10008071541300.15325-100000@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu>

Dear Andrew: see Carbon 38 (2000), pp 839-848. Regards, Michael Antal.

On Tue, 8 Aug 2000, Andrew Heggie wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 07:56:18 -1000 (HST), you wrote:
>
> >Dear Andrew: I would not be at all surprised by the effect you describe.
> >The iodine number of charcoal can be increased to a moderate value
> >(several hundred) by treatment of the charcoal with hot water. We
> >recently published a paper in Carbon which describes this and related
> >effects. I am happy to send you a copy of this paper. Regards, Michael
> >Antal.
>
> Michael,
>
> Thanks for the response, the "effect" was in fact an observation made
> by Ronal. Nonetheless I am interested in activation. Rather than you
> send the paper (thanks for the offer) can you quote the reference? I
> should be able to read it here as Carbon is a family interest.
> AJH
> The Stoves List is Sponsored by
> Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
> Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Tue Aug 8 09:01:00 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: BFCS Travel--Stokes/Ebbeson
Message-ID: <a1.905b0f9.26c15e64@cs.com>

Dear Harry:

I will also be travelling to Mumbai and will present a paper on our
Turbo-2000 Woodgas Stove. We haven't made our plans yet, but I think those
of us in the U.S. should post our findings and itinerary.

I am also posting this to the CREST gasification and stoves groups. I know
that Ronal Larson, moderator of the stoves group is also going.

Yours truly, TOM REED

In a message dated 8/5/00 11:27:47 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
hstokes@blazenet.net writes:

<<
Greetings to all of you who may be travelling to Mumbai for the
International Conference on Biomass-Based Fuels And Cooking
Systems(BFCS-2000). I am Harry Stokes of the Stokes Consulting Group and
will be travelling with Bengt Ebbeson, Sweden, of the Electrolux
Corporation. Bengt and I will be presenting a paper entitled "Converting
Biomass To A Clean Liquid Fuel For Domestic Use" and will be discussing and
demonstrating the Origo Stove by Electrolux. A synopsis of our work is
available in "Boiling Point" No.43, Autumn 1999, pp.28-30.

Please share with us any helpful travel plans. We would be delighted to
participate in joint arrangements, certainly if helpful and convenient to
all. We look forward to meeting and talking with each and every one of you.

Best Wishes, Harry Stokes

Harry Stokes, M.S., Forestry
The Stokes Consulting Group
22 Mummasburg Street
Gettysburg, PA 17325
TEL(717)337-9816/FAX (717)334-7313
E-mail: hstokes@blazenet.net
>>
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Tue Aug 8 09:01:20 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Charcoal Briquettes from Bagasse
Message-ID: <d.870d6d9.26c15e6a@cs.com>

Dear ELK:

If you are REALLY serious I can institute a multi hour search for my records.
This is what I remember:

An NGO and US AID funded a Mr. Lacey to develop a sugar cane gasifier
operating in Belize. He made a reasonable stab at it. It was about 8 ft in
diameter and 15 ft tall. During testing someone turned the wrong valve and
there was a minor explosion that tore off some of the insulation.

They found money to fix the insulation and sent me down to operate it and
evaluate it.

I spent a week travelling to the site every day and operating the gasifier
with the help of workers in the sugar mill. We reached a point where it
operated and produced a few hundred pounds of charcoal and then I went home
with MANY questions unanswered. I really enjoyed working at the mill.

I think cane trash and bagasse are prime candidates for charcoal making, but
it will take more than a week to solve all the problems, including the
briquetting of the product. I'm still interested.

Sorry to hear you may not go to Pune... I need to meet you sometime, here (Den
ver, I live 1 mile from Ron Larson, Crowwise, so you can kill two birds with
one stone). there (no present plans to visit, but you should invite me and my
Turbo Stove) or in Pune (since we're both contributing to the cooking
problem, bigtime).

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF

In a message dated 7/31/00 2:06:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
elk@net2000ke.com writes:

<<
Thanks Tom.

Tell me more about your Belize experience please? Compared to sawdust, the
bagasse was very easily carbonised and briquetting is not a problem at all.
I'm curious to hear what you determined.

Pune is not looking probable at this point unfortunately.

rgds;

elk
>>
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From costaeec at kcnet.com Tue Aug 8 22:41:14 2000
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (Jim Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Charcoal production equipment
Message-ID: <000401c001b3$5b883200$5265f0d1@default>

We have briquetters of all types.

The most popular for your purpose is the continuous extrusion type with a
hole in the center. It can make a combination sawdust & charcoal or coal
briquette with no binder (the lignin in the wood is the binder), or a pure
charcoal or coal briquette with a binding agent added (several binders
available).

Sizes range from 200 -600 kg / hr .

Please advise as to details of your project and we will provide specs &
quotes.

Jim Dunham
Environmental Engineering Corp
Kansas City, MO USA 64118
816-452-6663 fax-same
-----Original Message-----
From: *.English <english@adan.kingston.net>
To: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>
Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 9:10 AM
Subject: Charcoal production equipment

>
>
>From: "Lorenzo Marzolo" <"lmarzolo.ENERGIA_VERDE"@gener.cl>
>To: stoves@crest.org
>
>
>
>Our company Energfa Verde S.A. in Chile is looking for industrial charcoal
>production equipment using wood as raw material. We are planning a plant
>for 1,500 to 2,000 tonne per year of charcoal, but we also have interest
>in smaller and/or mobile plants.
>
>Please if someone knows a company that manufactures these type of
>equipments, please send me their e-mail adress or web site.
>
>Thanks you,
>
>
>L. Marzolo
>Energfa Verde S.A.
>O'Higgins 940, Of. 901
>Concepci=n, Chile
>Fone: 56-41-253228
>Fax : 56-41-253227
>
>
>
>The Stoves List is Sponsored by
>Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
>Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Aug 9 17:04:50 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: "measuring flame temperature"
Message-ID: <6e.1f0ff61.26c2b4fc@cs.com>

Dear John et al:

John Hamilton asked:

>Dear sir/madam,
>I have recently read the topic on the web re "flame temperature
>measurement-thermocouples not!" I would be grateful if you would let me know
>what %error can be expected when measuring with a thermocouple vs a suction
>thermocouple. I presently measure flame temperature using a type R but am
>considering a suction thermocouple if the error is too great.
>thank you for your time

Our pleasure.

The experts agree that the "adiabatic flame temperature" (that achieved by
the combustion products from the energy in the fuel) , and the spectroscopic
and suction flame temperature of most flames is 2000C +/- 200 C. However, if
you put a platinum wire in the flame of a bunsen burner it will glow a dull
or bright red, depending on size and flame velocity, but never exceed 1100 C.
So the error is around 700-1200C.

The temperature observed on the wire is that temperature at which the
radiation out equals the heat transfer in, and radiation goes up as the 4th
power of T, while heat transfer goes up as the ~first power of T and maybe
(velocity)^1/2.

Oxygen flames (~3000 C) have significantly higher heat transfer rates than
air flames of the same fuels because while the temperature is only 50 %
higher, the burning velocity is many times higher.

The suction thermocouple overcomes the measurement problem in part by
shielding the radiation out and enhancing the heat transfer in by drawing hot
gases at very high velocity over the TC.

Why do you want to measure flame temperature when you can more reliably look
it up in
the Combustion Handbook or other sources (like the 30 volume proceedings of
the Combustion Symposium).

~~~~~~

Incidentally, a similar confusion occurs in cooking. If you cook the turkey
at 450F for a few hours, the temperature of the turkey itself does not exceed
220 F, or it would "mummify". Or, if you put a pan of water in the 300F oven
it will never boil because the heat loss of evaporation exceeds the heat
transfer to the water and pan.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
In a message dated 8/7/00 5:49:45 PM Mountain Daylight Time, larcon@sni.net
writes:

<< >
>John Hamilton
>
>>
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From jovick at island.net Wed Aug 9 17:07:02 2000
From: jovick at island.net (John Flottvik)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Charcoal
Message-ID: <001801c00222$45f98d20$6fb8fea9@jovick>

August 9,2000

Dear stoves

I have been trying to e-mail Lorenzo Marzolo in
Chile as he is looking for Charcoal technology
The pilot plant we are to build will be a mobile
unit, so we can take it to shows etc

The e-mail addressee he gave does not work for me
so could you please pass my addressee on to him

<A
href="mailto:jovick@island.net">jovick@island.net
Thanks

From jemal at vianet.net.au Wed Aug 9 23:33:25 2000
From: jemal at vianet.net.au (Malcom)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <200008100333.UAA22900@secure.crest.net>

<tmiles@teleport.com>)
Subject: Basic Cooking Stoves for PNG
Sender: owner-stoves@crest.org
Precedence: bulk

Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Dear Sir,
Weare looking for wood stoves for export to Papua New Guinea.
These would be used for basic cooking & maybe heating water.
Is a basic device available or even construction plans ,as we have a
construction shop in Australia?

Malcolm Sells

From dstill at epud.org Thu Aug 10 01:54:16 2000
From: dstill at epud.org (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Review of recent work at Aprovecho
Message-ID: <000a01c1799a$94f08640$142b74d8@default>

Dear friends,

It's been a while since I checked in with the List about our work here at
Aprovecho. The other day I reminded myself to get in touch after finding
that I really did like a couple of the new variations that have emerged from
experimenting with griddle stoves and stoves with chimneys in general. I've
mentioned that Dr. Winiarski, Aprovecho stove guru and I had thought that
chimneys were just too expensive to be practical solutions in the places,
like Africa, where Aprovecho has worked. But now after Larry's experiences
in Honduras and Nicaragua these last two years where chimneys are more
commonplace and accepted we've been spending time with students building and
testing a lot of stove-with-chimney variations.

Here are a few general observations that I believe are true:

when building a griddle stove the gap under the griddle through which hot
flue gases pass should be no bigger than one inch for efficient transfer of
heat to the griddle. Larger ducts substantially cool the griddle allowing
heat to pass unused up the chimney.

A really hot griddle is much more efficient at boiling water in a pot than a
medium hot griddle.

The steel griddle is a great conductor of heat so as it passes heat to the
pots it also passes a lot of heat into the air of the room. Griddle stoves
can be fairly efficient especially if the griddle under the pot is very hot,
but they are at their worst when griddle surface is open to the air. It's
best to keep the griddle covered by a lot of pots.

Efficiency can be improved by partially submerging the pot under the griddle
through a pot sized hole that allows the pot to slide in and out but keeps
smoke from entering the room. If heat is forced to contact and rub against
pot surfaces, side and bottom, then stove efficiency can hover around 40%.
Such a stove can also use a thick cement stove top and not bother with the
expensive steel griddle.

Another cook stove option with chimney is to fit a pot into a cylinder of
sheet metal where the pot hole on top of the insulated cylinder is tight
enough to keep smoke inside the stove. As far as I know, Emil Haas invented
this batch fed stove and called it the Polish stove. The chimney exits the
cylinder near the bottom.

We added Larry's Rocket stove elbow to this stove and are very happy with
the results. Since hot flue gases rub against the sides and bottom of the
pot heat transfer is very good. The Rocket stove combination feed magazine
and combustion chamber make for both normal feeding of wood and clean
combustion. The chimney takes all smoke out of the room. For safety reasons
the insulated cylindrical stove body can be coated with earth so the outside
stays cool to the touch. It's a nice simple stove.

We've also been experimenting with refractory cement and molds for stove
bodies made from regular concrete. Molds make a uniform and very pretty
stove body. If the heat is isolated by wood ash insulation from the stove
body the concrete is not exposed to degrading temperatures. The latest model
made by Don O'Neal is so pretty that many people here in the States ask if
they can buy one! With a 1/4" thick steel griddle Don's stove could replace
a $1,000 cast iron stove while using less wood and only costing $30 or so.

North American Refractories makes a lot of different kinds of refractory
cement. I am quite impressed with the possibility of making stove parts from
these pourable inexpensive refractory materials. We continue to do
testing...

Here's hoping that your stove experiments are fascinating and productive.
Best regards, visit when you're in Oregon!

Dean Still

From harrick at sinfo.net Thu Aug 10 11:30:57 2000
From: harrick at sinfo.net (Beatriz)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: John Flottvik
Message-ID: <007001c002df$c3032660$7e052ec8@beatriz>

Dear Sirs,
I have been trying to write to John Flottvik and
his email returns with missed address. Could it be this address is wrongly
written.
Thank you
Beatriz Harrick
harrick@sinfo.net

From carbex at rdsor.ro Thu Aug 10 16:42:48 2000
From: carbex at rdsor.ro (Cornel Ticarat)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Pressure for charcoal production
Message-ID: <200008102042.NAA06442@secure.crest.net>

Hello stovers!

I am trying to build a retort for producing charcoal using indirect method
(i.e. with a retort placed inside the kiln).
As far as I know there are some pressure generated inside the retort during
the process. Does anyone know which is the best level of this
pressure required to be kept?
I would be very gratefull to anyone of you for this information.

Best regards,

Cornel

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Fri Aug 11 03:06:27 2000
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Woodcoal)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Pressure for charcoal production
In-Reply-To: <200008102042.NAA06442@secure.crest.net>
Message-ID: <006d01bff943$50b61ae0$723fefc3@22>

HelloCornel,

The valid pressure depends on hardness of a material of walls.
I advise to make openings in bottom. The gas will abandon a retort and to
burn down in the kiln. The stress never will become excessive.
Sincerely yours, Yury Yudkevitch(Russia)

> Hello stovers!
>
> I am trying to build a retort for producing charcoal using indirect method
> (i.e. with a retort placed inside the kiln).
> As far as I know there are some pressure generated inside the retort
during
> the process. Does anyone know which is the best level of this
> pressure required to be kept?
> I would be very gratefull to anyone of you for this information.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Cornel

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Fri Aug 11 08:01:34 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Active charcoal
Message-ID: <48.9700df7.26c544d8@cs.com>

Dear John:

Thanks for your information on activating. Maybe they have the book at
Amazon.com
[ : ) ] How will you keep the charcoal at 800 C for an hour while passing CO2
through?

You might write to A. Das (das@eagle-access.net). He has worked extensively
on activating....

Yours, TOM REED BEF
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From jovick at island.net Fri Aug 11 11:15:41 2000
From: jovick at island.net (John Flottvik)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Active Char
Message-ID: <000801c0038d$3b048d40$6fb8fea9@jovick>

August 11, 2000

Dear Tom

Thanks for the addressee to A. Das. I will give him
a call.

I don't think we will have total control of the
temperature at first, or until we start experimenting. However in theory when
you inject the red hot char in a continuous manner into the bottom of the bin
the charcoal will stay that way long enough to activate.
Years back when my partner and Consolidated Carbon
did this it was to keep air from the char, and to keep the product from burning.
They had a smother cover over top of the char dome and the burn problem was all
but eliminated.

It was the # 2 idea of activating that we will run
the red hot char through a second retort, this retort will be fitted with steam
jets.
The char will be passed through at a rate of about
1 hour. The problem here could be Hydrogen build up. Again we will need to
do a lot of tests which leads to my final note.

After three years of planning, we will now have the
much appreciated assistance from the CanMet Energy Technology
Branch.
Under the supervision of Dr Fernando Preto we will
begin building, and then do extensive testing on a small 2 retort pilot
plant.
The time frame for this is two months. Tests and
data will be on stack emissions,charcoal quality and the wood oil we will
collect.

Once all the testing has been done, and hopefully
we can go on to a commercial unit, the pilot plant will be used for further
tests
using all kinds of different feed stock. Everything
from bones to municipal solid waste. As long as it is organic we will run tests
on it. But first, lets back the train up <FONT face=Arial
size=2>and learn to walk, before we run

<FONT face=Arial
size=2>Respectfully
John flottvik

From harrick at sinfo.net Fri Aug 11 13:34:12 2000
From: harrick at sinfo.net (Beatriz)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: John Flottvik
Message-ID: <002b01c003ba$25844640$983f2ec8@beatriz>

Dear John Flottvik,
i have been trying to send you emails on the <A
href="mailto:jovick@island.net">jovick@island.net and it always answers
wrong address.
Please advise me which is the right
address.
Thank you
Beatriz

From larcon at sni.net Sat Aug 12 13:11:20 2000
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Forwarding Dr. Yuri answer on pelletization of sludge
Message-ID: <v01540b06b5b9e4c1d54c@[204.131.233.20]>

Stovers:
On July 14, I forwarded a request on pelletization to "stoves",
receiving the response today from Dr. Yuri in Russia. It seems appropriate
to send it on to the whole "stoves" list.

Dr. Yuri:
1. Thank you for this new input on pelletization.
2. The dating on your message (below) shows July 29 - so I at
first thought that there had been a mysterious long delay. But then the
very next message in my "In" box was your response to Cornel Ticarat -
responding to a message just a few days ago - but also dated July 29.
3. Conclusion - My first impulse was wrong - you did probably send
this today. Your computer or server needs may need a check on the
time/date stamping.

Serena:
Dr. Yuri's message is hopefully still useful information. If you
get a chance to tell us whether you solved your original technical hurdle,
we would love to hear about it.

Jan-Erik Dahlstrom <jed@algonet.se>:
I thought you would like to see Dr. Yuri's reference to your
pelletizing group. On our list "stoves" (found at "www.crest.org"), we get
frequent inquiries on pelletization. If you think it appropriate, we would
welcome a description of what your group does. Thanks in advance

Ron ("Stoves" coordinator)

>From: "Woodcoal" <woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru>
>To: "Ronal W. Larson" <larcon@sni.net>
>Subject: Re: Forwarding query on pelletization of sludge
>Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:55:07 +0400
>Organization:
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
>
>Dear Ron,
>Is present Swedish Pellet Club (EMail: jed@algonet.se).The principal
>Jan-Erik Dahlstrom. This club aggregates the scientists and businessmen,
>which one are engaged the pellets. They have the information.
>Yury (Russia)
>
>..............
>
>> Stovers: Anyone able to help?
>.......................
>> >I am interested in pelletizing volatile materials (450=BA C) to
>> >introduce them into a slag (1000=BAC) for stabilization via
>> >solidifacation without volatization of volatile materials contained
>> >within the pellets. What type of formulations would be appropriate for
>> >application on sludges with a 30% humidity level. Where should I begin
>> >looking? Are there low cost options available, perhaps using natual
>> >sand sources plus bentonite?
>> >
>> >Hope you can help me.
>> >
>> >Serena Domvile
>............................
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Mon Aug 14 12:02:43 2000
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Forwarding Jim Dunham (2) on Charcoal production equipment
Message-ID: <v01540b00b5bdb5b3aba8@[204.131.233.15]>

Stovers:
Following his message that was received by the stoves list on
August 8, I sent a note (at the end) to Jim Dunham, offering a chance to
educate our list some more on briquetting machines. The following is his
useful reply.

Jim:
Thanks very much.

Ron

(The remainder is all from "Jim Dunham" <costaeec@kcnet.com>, as received
over the weekend.)

Thanks for the invitation Ron,

I normally try to make my comments short and simple, so as to not become
commercial. However, a more detailed description of briquetting could prove
helpful to others and save me endless individual responses.

In general:

There are three types of materials which we densify or briquette; they are
coal, charcoal, biomass waste and any combination of these. Coal and
charcoal require a binder material such as corn starch or numerous other
materials. Biomass includes nearly any dry plant material, such as sawdust,
bigasse, rice husk, straw, and such. The naturally occuring lignin in the
biomass materials acts as a binder.

End uses include fireplace logs, BBQ fuel, heating fuel, cooking fuel, and
industrial fuels for heat of electrical generation. It may be burned alone
or co-fired with any other fuel. BTU output depends on the raw material, but
biomass usually contains 8,500 to 8,800 BTU per pound.

There are four basic methods used for briquetting. Traditional 'pillow'
briquettes made from charcoal are produced by a rotary die press, where two
de-bossed 'wheels' roll together to form the pillow. This is generally used
only in larger operations.

We use far more extrusion equipment due to it's greater versatility, lower
cost and minimal maintenance.

There are three types of extrusion.

Hydraulic is the lowest cost, but also the lowest density and higher
maintenance. They begin at aproximattly USD $30,000 for 50 Kg/hr.

The screw extruder makes a continous log X 50 - 75mm diameter with a 15mm
hole in the center to assist lighting. The material is extremely dense, but
raw materials must be below 10% moisture and below 6mm in size. Prices begin
at USD $60,000 for 500 - 700 Kg/hr using about 50-60 Kw.

The piston type extruder is by far the most versatile and forgiving. It can
densify nearly any material up to 15mm and up to 14% moisture. Sizes range
from 280 - 3000 Kg / hr. Prices range from aprox. USD $48,000 - $395,000.

With all types of extruders, the extrudate is a continous mass with a
diameter ranging from 50mm-95mm. It is cut to lengths ranging from 20mm for
fuel briquettes, to the desired length for fire logs.

Why densify?

1. Transportation and storage costs are reduced by about 75%.
2. Handling, storage, and stoking can be totally automated.
3. Emissions are dramatically reduced.
4. Heat output is dramatically increased, versus burning the same material
loose.
5. Ash is dramatically reduced.
6. Densified materials, if kept dry, have an unlimited life, whereas the
same material stored loose, would absorb moisture and begin rotting and
attracting vermin.

Hope this is enough info to cover the basics. Expansion of details in any
specific area is available upon request.

Original Message-----
From: Ronal W. Larson <larcon@sni.net>
To: Jim Dunham <costaeec@kcnet.com>
Cc: Lorenzo Marzolo <lmarzolo.ENERGIA_VERDE@gener.cl>; Lorenzo Marzolo
<"lmarzolo.ENERGIA_VERDE"@gener.cl>
Date: Thursday, August 10, 2000 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Charcoal production equipment

>Jim:
>
> I write as the coordinator for the "stoves" list. Thanks for your
>message today.
>
> I think it would be appropriate, if you wish, to say a bit more
>about your briquetters, including the prices, outputs, and power
>requirements for your different models (not just the most popular, if the
>number of models is not too great). Some statement about shipping charges
>would be helpful for members of our list.
>
> I am interested in why one has a hole in the center. What length
>pieces typically result? How does the power requirement vary for different
>raw material inputs?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>Ron
>
>You said:
>
>>We have briquetters of all types.
>>
>>The most popular for your purpose is the continuous extrusion type with a
>>hole in the center. It can make a combination sawdust & charcoal or coal
>>briquette with no binder (the lignin in the wood is the binder), or a pure
>>charcoal or coal briquette with a binding agent added (several binders
>>available).
>>
>>Sizes range from 200 -600 kg / hr .
>>
>>Please advise as to details of your project and we will provide specs &
>>quotes.
>>
>>Jim Dunham
>>Environmental Engineering Corp
>>Kansas City, MO USA 64118
>>816-452-6663 fax-same

>>
> <snip>
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Tue Aug 15 12:03:32 2000
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Forwarding Jim Dunham (2) on Charcoal production equipment
Message-ID: <v01540b02b5bf0e69c9a4@[204.131.233.40]>

Jim:
Can you answer this question from a person very skilled in stove
operations?
Perhaps you could also discuss the advantages of pellets with a
central hollow core and what is considered both an allowable and an optimum
hole size? This topic may be of major interest for feeding air into the
fuel.

Thanks in advance.

Piet - Thanks for the query.

Ron

>To: larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
>From: Peter Verhaart <verhaarp@cqu.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: Forwarding Jim Dunham (2) on Charcoal production equipment
>
>A very good summary of methods.
>One thing I don't understand is the claim that the amount of ash is
>considerably reduced. How does that happen?
>
>At 09:17 14/08/00 -0600, you wrote:
>>Chop
>
>>5. Ash is dramatically reduced.
>
>Piet
>Peter Verhaart, 6 McDonald St. Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
>Phone: +61 7 4933 1761; fax: +61 7 4933 1761 ; mobile: 0412 457239
>E-mail p.verhaart@cqu.edu.au
>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From larcon at sni.net Tue Aug 15 12:11:44 2000
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: BOUNCE stoves@crest.org: Non-member submission from [kijabe<kijabe@worldonline.co.za>]
Message-ID: <v01540b03b5bf0feb245c@[204.131.233.40]>

Jim: This was sent to us, perhaps independent of your recent messages, but
clearly up your alley.

Stovers also able to respond: All such inquiries are always open to all
bidders.

Njagi: 1. Let me know if you would like to join our (free) "stoves" list.
Your proposed product might have a good home for cook stoves in South
Africa.

2. Please let us know if you have any special knowledge about
briquetting opportunities for cooks stove use - and why paper "waste" looks
appropriate compared to other things.

Ron

(Rest today from Njagi):

>
>I am an American businessman who is interested in a Briquetting machine =
>for my business in South Africa. The raw material from which the pellets =
>are made is the short fiber waste from the paper manufacturing process. =
>Please let me know if you have such machines or can refer me to someone =
>that does.=20
>I have all the details, and can give them to you at your request.
>Regards,
>Njagi
>
kijabe <kijabe@worldonline.co.za>

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From harrick at sinfo.net Tue Aug 15 12:12:55 2000
From: harrick at sinfo.net (Beatriz)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: John Flottvik
Message-ID: <001901c006d3$6122a360$6c522ec8@beatriz>

Dear John Flovick,
i have been writing to your email <A
href="mailto:jovick@island.net">jovick@island.net and it always come back as
a wrong address, it doesnt appear as if you dont recieve it sends a message that
it doesnt exist. Please if you have another email i will appreciatte. Anyways i
will try to fax you.
Thank you
Beatriz Harrick
<A
href="mailto:harrick@sinfo.net">harrick@sinfo.net

From larcon at sni.net Tue Aug 15 16:32:45 2000
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson by way of Tom Miles <tmiles@teleport.com>)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: BOUNCE stoves@crest.org: Non-member submission from [kijabe <kijabe@worldonline.co.za>]
Message-ID: <4.3.2.20000815100154.00a612a0@mail.teleport.com>

Jim: This was sent to us, perhaps independent of your recent messages, but
clearly up your alley.

Stovers also able to respond: All such inquiries are always open to all
bidders.

Njagi: 1. Let me know if you would like to join our (free) "stoves" list.
Your proposed product might have a good home for cook stoves in South
Africa.

2. Please let us know if you have any special knowledge about
briquetting opportunities for cooks stove use - and why paper "waste" looks
appropriate compared to other things.

Ron

(Rest today from Njagi):

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From jovick at island.net Tue Aug 15 17:53:57 2000
From: jovick at island.net (John Flottvik)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Mail confusion
Message-ID: <000801c006e9$838a4f00$6fb8fea9@jovick>

August 15, 2000

Dear Beatriz

I spoke to my E-mail provider and every thing is
O.K. on that end . Is it possible you have my old addressee in your
addressee book? He says if it is, the computer will
try to send to the old addressee.

Anyhow I will wait for your call
at <A
href="mailto:jovick@island.net">jovick@island.net

<FONT face=Arial
size=2>
Good Luck John

From costaeec at kcnet.com Tue Aug 15 22:57:18 2000
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (Jim Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Forwarding Jim Dunham (2) on Charcoal production equipment
Message-ID: <005001c00735$ca1e0500$0865f0d1@default>

First, let's define pellet Vs: briquette.

Don't know that there is any legal or industry distinction, but we define
pellets as being produced by a wheel forcing material through a perforated
plate. Typically a pellet is <15mm dia. A briquette is 35 - 95 mm
diameter(resembles hockey puck) and is produced by a piston or screw forcing
material through a die . Pellet is more precise and more costly. Briquette
is cheaper and easier to produce.

The hole is purely optional and the size is more of a matter of
manufacturing efficiency than scientific sizing. It increases oxygen flow,
thus improving initial ignition and burning characteristics. If feeding an
existing fire, the difference is negligible.

Ash reduction is simply pure magic! I do not know the exact science except
that the fire is much hotter, due to the density of the fuel, and that the
intense heat provides a cleaner and more complete burn. The same reason
emissions are reduced.

I burn these firelogs in my fireplaces all winter without cleaning out
ashes. The spring cleaning residue consists of a small bucket of very fine,
pure white, powdery ash.

I add the BBQ wafers to my gas grill and have so little ash that it blows
away without ever needing cleaning or plugging of the gas jets.

Our company has been in densification (in 46 countries) for 9 years, with
the benefits of having Mr. Konrad Ruckstuhl, controversial but brilliant
Swiss Scientist, on board for 5 years, yet we don't have all the answers.
We do have the experience and practical answers. Perhaps others can add the
'whys' and the deeper scientific reasoning.

Best to all.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Ronal W. Larson <larcon@sni.net>
To: Jim Dunham <costaeec@kcnet.com>
Cc: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>
Date: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Forwarding Jim Dunham (2) on Charcoal production equipment

>Jim:
> Can you answer this question from a person very skilled in stove
>operations?
> Perhaps you could also discuss the advantages of pellets with a
>central hollow core and what is considered both an allowable and an optimum
>hole size? This topic may be of major interest for feeding air into the
>fuel.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Piet - Thanks for the query.
>
>Ron
>
>>To: larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
>>From: Peter Verhaart <verhaarp@cqu.edu.au>
>>Subject: Re: Forwarding Jim Dunham (2) on Charcoal production equipment
>>
>>A very good summary of methods.
>>One thing I don't understand is the claim that the amount of ash is
>>considerably reduced. How does that happen?
>>
>>At 09:17 14/08/00 -0600, you wrote:
>>>Chop
>>
>>>5. Ash is dramatically reduced.
>>
>>Piet
>>Peter Verhaart, 6 McDonald St. Gracemere Q 4702 Australia
>>Phone: +61 7 4933 1761; fax: +61 7 4933 1761 ; mobile: 0412 457239
>>E-mail p.verhaart@cqu.edu.au
>>
>
>Ronal W. Larson, PhD
>21547 Mountsfield Dr.
>Golden, CO 80401, USA
>303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
>larcon@sni.net
>
>

From jovick at island.net Wed Aug 16 00:04:38 2000
From: jovick at island.net (John Flottvik)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Charcoal Pellet Fuel
Message-ID: <000801c0071d$5101eaa0$6fb8fea9@jovick>

August 15,2000

Hi Jim

I find your letter on pellet & briquettes for
home heating very interesting.

We are just now starting construction on a
Continuous Process Charcoal Reactor (a small 2 retort pilot plant)
The planning and securing funding stage is over( 3
years) Interesting enough, in our business plan we propose to make
charcoal pellet fuel for exciting pellet stoves,
and charcoal bricks for regular stoves.

At a Residual Wood Conference in Vancouver back in
November I did a presentation on our proposed plant, and
mentioned the charcoal pellets. A pellet stove
representative believed it to be a superior fuel, but he also suggested

the auger feed to the burner needed to be
re-calibrated because of the grater heat,( 4 to 1 )I have no data
yet
on any of this, but we hope to be starting test
runs in about 6 to 8 weeks

The charcoal you have been burning is of high
carbon content( very little ash). Our
process will start with a uniform
feedstock such as sawdust This will be bone dry.
With thermocouples we will know the exact temp in the Reactor.
Finally we can control the feed rate of the
sawdust. By keeping data, we will be able to dictate the quality a customer

want.

We will probably be intrested in briquette
equipment soon. Also I would appreciate any input using charcoal pellets for
home heating. With natural gas prices going through the roof, charcoal will be a
HOT alternative.

Sincerely John Flottvik

CC Kip H Yes I live on
North Vancouver
Island.
Cheers

From costaeec at kcnet.com Wed Aug 16 11:56:47 2000
From: costaeec at kcnet.com (Jim Dunham)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Charcoal Pellet Fuel
Message-ID: <001e01c007a2$ab575e60$a865f0d1@default>

John,

Great plan. Should do very well. I agree that the stoking is
critical, as conventional wood pellet stoves are not likely built to handle the
intense heat which is attainable with charcoal pellets.

Most of our experience is with solid wood logs and briquettes.
Some of our early sales of firelogs got us into trouble, as users would load up
a wood stove with the densified logs, as they would with cord wood, and the
result was a fire so hot it destroyed the stove. Fortunately no catastrophes,
before we began issuing stern warnings to buyers.

We work mainly with the wood industry to find uses for the
massive volumes of waste which is a major expense for them. So long as this
supply is available, at no cost (and often at negative cost), we have not
justified a need to convert to charcoal.

There are areas, however, where the waste wood supply is small
and the heat/energy need is great. These areas definitely can best be served by
your process. Please supply us more details, as I can see several opportunities
to dovetail operations.

Thanks,

Jim Dunham
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
-----Original Message-----From:
John Flottvik <<A
href="mailto:jovick@island.net">jovick@island.net>To: <A
href="mailto:costaeec@kcnet.com">costaeec@kcnet.com <<A
href="mailto:costaeec@kcnet.com">costaeec@kcnet.com>Cc: <A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org>Date:
Tuesday, August 15, 2000 11:08 PMSubject: Charcoal Pellet
Fuel
August 15,2000

Hi Jim

I find your letter on pellet & briquettes
for home heating very interesting.

We are just now starting construction on a
Continuous Process Charcoal Reactor (a small 2 retort pilot
plant)
The planning and securing funding stage is
over( 3 years) Interesting enough, in our business plan we propose to
make
charcoal pellet fuel for exciting pellet
stoves, and charcoal bricks for regular stoves.

At a Residual Wood Conference in Vancouver back
in November I did a presentation on our proposed plant,
and
mentioned the charcoal pellets. A pellet stove
representative believed it to be a superior fuel, but he also suggested

the auger feed to the burner needed to be
re-calibrated because of the grater heat,( 4 to 1 )I have no data
yet
on any of this, but we hope to be starting test
runs in about 6 to 8 weeks

The charcoal you have been burning is of high
carbon content( very little ash). Our
process will start with a uniform
feedstock such as sawdust This will be bone
dry. With thermocouples we will know the exact temp in the
Reactor.
Finally we can control the feed rate of the
sawdust. By keeping data, we will be able to dictate the quality a customer

want.

We will probably be intrested in briquette
equipment soon. Also I would appreciate any input using charcoal pellets for
home heating. With natural gas prices going through the roof, charcoal will
be a HOT alternative.

Sincerely John Flottvik

CC Kip H Yes I live on
North Vancouver
Island.
Cheers

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Aug 16 20:22:03 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Holes in the briquettes...
Message-ID: <a0.87abb65.26cc89f3@cs.com>

Dear Stovers:

In principle, the hole in the briquette (log, pellet) could allow a constant
rate of heat release during combustion (or heat input in manufacturer?),
since as the outer surface decreases (lowering heat rate), the inner surface
increases (increasing rater).

This principle is used in ice cubes with holes (constant rate of cooling of
beverage until all gone) and artillery prpellant powder (constant rate of gas
production rather than shrinking rate as shell leaves barrel).

Neat, eh?

TOM REED

In a message dated 8/15/00 10:06:02 AM Mountain Daylight Time, larcon@sni.net
writes:

<< Jim:
Can you answer this question from a person very skilled in stove
operations?
Perhaps you could also discuss the advantages of pellets with a
central hollow core and what is considered both an allowable and an optimum
hole size? This topic may be of major interest for feeding air into the
fuel.

Thanks in advance.

Piet - Thanks for the query.
>>
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From jovick at island.net Wed Aug 16 22:26:39 2000
From: jovick at island.net (John Flottvik)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Charcoal Pellet Fuel
Message-ID: <000b01c007d8$ca261e40$6fb8fea9@jovick>

August 16, 2000

Hi Jim

Thank you for the mail this morning.
I have been wondering if the charcoal heat would be
to great for the stoves. As mentioned before, calibrating
the auger speed is one way, but we need to buy a
stove for tests, or find local residents willing to try our
fuel. One question? will the stove thermostat not
regulate the pellet feed rate?

Word has it here in B.C that some municipalities
and towns are about to ban any kind of wood and wood products
for home heating stoves.

Im not sure where you live, but you mention a lot
of wood waste at your disposal. Our Government Environment Ministry has put

a ban on any burning of waste wood as a way for
sawmills and logging activities to dispose of their debris. All beehive
burners
are to be discontinued. This leaves a lot of
debris at our disposal.
Because we will have a continuous process(24 hours
per day) we feel justified to make charcoal rather than a wood
product

As mentioned we are starting construction now, with
a completion and test runs condensing in about 6 to 8 weeks.( Oct 7
)
Because of our continuous nature, and
environmentally friendly way of making charcoal we have attracted interest
globally.

If you need more info let me know. What are
dovetail opportunities?

Regards John

From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Sat Aug 19 10:17:57 2000
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Adapting Chimney Sizes
Message-ID: <200008191417.e7JEHrM14566@smtp1.mts.net>

Stovers,

I've taken over a "hippie homestead" in Manitoba, and in order to
get insurance I'm going to have to upgrade the chimneys to the
"2100" type (2-inch insulation). Fair enough - I'm all for safety!

The main heater is a Triumph with an 8" collar which has been
adapted to a 7" chimney. (The stove had a label, which is now
gone, so I can't offer specifics.) I may want to, or have to, replace
this stove as well, as I would think there are better designs
available now, and I'd like to keep emissions to a minimum.
Something EPA certified or whatever.

It seems, from a cursory investigation (there are no serious stove
dealers within 200km of here) that newer stoves most commonly
have 6" collars. Maybe this impression is skewed due to the small
data sample. ;-)

I don't want to put in a shiny new chimney that's inappropriate for
the present stove or a later stove acquisition. The two goals may
be incompatible.

Question:

Presumably it's best to have the same chimney size as the stove
collar. If forced to adapt sizes, which is the lesser of two evils -
large stove into smaller chimney or visa versa? (If nothing else, this
will tell me something about the quality of the existing situation.)

My technician's guess (I've no experience in wood heat systems) is
that, to a point, a smaller chimney would have greater flue-gas
velocity and be less prone to creosote accumulation, even though
at first blush the idea of a slightly oversized chimney is intuitively
appealing to the neophyte. One way or the other, I suspect that if
the size difference is too great, one eventually gets into trouble of a
different kind.

I'm thinking I should bite the bullet and buy stove and chimney at
the same time, but as I know so little and the suppliers are at such
a distance, I don't want to rush into this. Meanwhile the nights are
getting chilly.

BTW, I'd love to hire a qualified stove supplier / installer to take
care of this but they're not easy to find here, and I shudder to think
what it would take to get one out here from a distance. When you
ask about installers, people look at you as though you're from
Venus. The idea that you wouldn't put in your own chimney is
borderline bizarre to them. But they've grown up doing this stuff,
whereas I've grown up with thermostats. ;-)

Cheers,
Scott Willing
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Tue Aug 22 16:49:20 2000
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: Forwarding Melessaw Shanko Re:Turbo Stove from Finland
Message-ID: <200008222049.e7MKnG301150@list1.mts.net>

Date sent: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:35:13 +0300
To: willing@mb.sympatico.ca
From: "Melessaw Shanko" <mgp@telecom.net.et>
Subject: Re: Turbo Stove from Finland

Dear Stovers,

I remember reading about Turbo stove in one of the mails. I was
interested on the detail technical drawings to manufacture the
stove locally in Ethiopia. But I could not get the full address of the
original invemtor Mr. Tapio NIEMI, a forester by background (from
Finland) who has worked in Eastern Africa. I will be glad if you
could forward this message to him or let me know his email
address.

Your List member

Melessew SHANKO

From ibron at infoweb.abs.net Wed Aug 23 23:53:37 2000
From: ibron at infoweb.abs.net (ibron@infoweb.abs.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: <none>
Message-ID: <200008231450.HAA12963@secure.crest.net>

Dear sir,
We are interested in your products and require more information.Pls
kindly send us your Catalogue, price list and ordering procedure.
Our postal address is as follows
Im33
P.O. Box 1155
Apapa, Lagos
Nigeria

Attn: Mr Ovie Oghenekaroh

Best regards
O. Oghenekaroh

From hzz at mindspring.com Wed Aug 23 23:53:40 2000
From: hzz at mindspring.com (Helen )
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:38 2004
Subject: carbonising saw dust
Message-ID: <200008240353.UAA15276@secure.crest.net>

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:33:20 -0400
Organization: Zeluck Inc.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004B_01C00D0F.15A3C9E0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C00D0F.15A3C9E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

what do you mean by that?we have a lot of saw dust and i am very =
interested in any procedure that will help me to cut my =
overhead.718/251-8060 helen=20

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C00D0F.15A3C9E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
what do you mean by that?we have a lot = of saw dust=20 and i am very
interested in any procedure that will help me to cut my=20
overhead.718/251-8060 helen

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C00D0F.15A3C9E0--

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Fri Aug 25 09:29:28 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:39 2004
Subject: The inverted downdraft gasifier
Message-ID: <61.6acd3e4.26d7ce90@cs.com>

Dear Peter and all:

I developed the "inverted downdraft gasifier" in 1985 during a trip to South
Africa withTom Miles. Could hardly wait to get back to the Solar Energy
Research Institute (SERI) to try it out. Here's the reasoning:
~~~~~
In the conventional downdraft gasifier air is drawn by a blower or engine
from nozzles (Imbert starting 1938) or from the top of a cylindrical tube
(stratified downdraft downdraft, starting at SERI, 1980). It first meets
unburned biomass and burns it in the process I call "flaming pyrolysis".
(Flaming combustion is like the flame of the match; flaming pyrolysis is
similar, but has limited air.) This produces a gas containing considerable
CO, H2 and CH4, but also CO2 and H2O at temperatures of 1000-1500C and
produces from 5-25% charcoal, depending on the superficial velocity of the
gases.

These HOT gases pass over the resulting charcoal and are further reduced by
the charcoal to producer gas. If the superficial velocity is about 0.4 m/s
and the gas has a heating value of 5 MJ/nm3, the output will be 2 MJ/m2-s or
2,000 kWth/m2, or 0.2 kW/cm2, an amazing throughput.
~~~~~
In 1985 I became concerned about the problem of domestic cooking with
woodfires and the black clouds of pollution over the black townships in South
Africa from wood cooking.

Waking at 3 AM from too much food, I designed a downdraft gasifier in my mind
using the above figures and found that a 3 kW stove, typical of gas/electric
cooking in the U.S. would have an area of (3/0.2) 15 cm2 and a diameter of
4.4 cm if it were operated in CONVENTIONAL downdraft mode. And not much more
if operated with a turndown ratio of 2, below which DOWNDRAFT gasification
can become unstable.

Why is there so little turndown ratio in DOWNDRAFT GASIFIERS? I decided that
it is because it is necessary to PULL the gas down through the fuel, even
though hot gases desperately want to rise due to natural convection! So, how
about turning it upside down so that the natural convection AIDS the motion
of gas rather than opposing it?

Stopping at my Daughters's house in Massachusetts on the way home, I took a 1
lb coffee can, punched holes in the bottom, filled it with wood chips, lit it
ON TOP (with a torch or some alcohol on the top layer of fuel) and was
delighted to find that it burned steadily for about 15 minutes to produce a
combustible gas - and a yield of 20-25% charcoal if you close the air holes
after the volatiles have all been consumed. EUREKA, the INVERTED DOWNDRAFT
GASIFIER was born!

A conventional gas stove not only needs gas, but also needs to mix air with
the gas in the right proportions and maintain a stable flame. I have been
working on that problem ever since, first with natural convection (possible,
but lazy flames) and now with the Turbo stove (fierce, clean flames from a 3
Watt blower.)

Let me urge you to try the inverted downdraft gasifier. Add a second can on
top with lots of air holes to get a better gas flame. Venturi mixers, more
chimney etc. all help, but the main problem is mixing the gas with the 4 to
10 X air required for combustion.

I first called the gasifier an "upside downdraft" (UPSIDE DOWN + DOWNDRAFT =
UPSIDE DOWNDRAFT) gasifier (little joke - : ) ) but that confused non English
natives. I then called it an INVERTED DOWNDRAFT gasifier. but even that
seems too much for others. It has since been called "charcoal making"
gasifier (Ron Larson) or open top . . or other names. Lots of papers out
there by myself and others on the subject. I'll post a list soon, but we
have been cautioned not to send files to the LIST.

~~~~~~~
We are currently working at the Community Power Corporation to propogate the
3 kW Turbo Stove in the countries around the world where it is sorely needed.

Yours truly, TOM REED CPC/BEF

From tmiles at teleport.com Fri Aug 25 10:53:39 2000
From: tmiles at teleport.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:39 2004
Subject: GAS-L: The inverted downdraft gasifier
In-Reply-To: <61.6acd3e4.26d7ce90@cs.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000825074019.00da44e0@mail.teleport.com>

Thank you Tom,

I think the real story went something like this:

You were making your usual entertaining presentation on how gasification
gasification works by using a cigarette. But since you don't smoke, and you
were talking more than smoking, the cigarette began to droop. Pretty soon
it drooped so low that it became an upside-down gasifier. Voila, the
inverted downdraft.

I'm sure the thought process was further stimulated by our visit to a
downdraft gasifier that Fred Hose had installed in a woodworking plant.
While we were there the draft on the dry fuel "changed" and we had a rather
dramatic inversion of the gasification process with lots of flaming
pyrolysis. Water was then added, and not just to test the theories of M.
Boudard.

The real treat on that trip was to see the Fluidyne gasifier light off in a
few minutes and be generating power in a few more. So what areas of small
scale gasification have advanced in the last 15 years?

Tom Miles

At 09:28 AM 8/25/00 -0400, Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:
>Dear Peter and all:
>
>I developed the "inverted downdraft gasifier" in 1985 during a trip to South
>Africa withTom Miles. Could hardly wait to get back to the Solar Energy
>Research Institute (SERI) to try it out. Here's the reasoning:
> ~~~~~
>In the conventional downdraft gasifier air is drawn by a blower or engine
>from nozzles (Imbert starting 1938) or from the top of a cylindrical tube
>(stratified downdraft downdraft, starting at SERI, 1980). It first meets
>unburned biomass and burns it in the process I call "flaming pyrolysis".
>(Flaming combustion is like the flame of the match; flaming pyrolysis is
>similar, but has limited air.) This produces a gas containing considerable
>CO, H2 and CH4, but also CO2 and H2O at temperatures of 1000-1500C and
>produces from 5-25% charcoal, depending on the superficial velocity of the
>gases.
>
>These HOT gases pass over the resulting charcoal and are further reduced by
>the charcoal to producer gas. If the superficial velocity is about 0.4 m/s
>and the gas has a heating value of 5 MJ/nm3, the output will be 2 MJ/m2-s or
>2,000 kWth/m2, or 0.2 kW/cm2, an amazing throughput.
> ~~~~~
>In 1985 I became concerned about the problem of domestic cooking with
>woodfires and the black clouds of pollution over the black townships in South
>Africa from wood cooking.
>
>Waking at 3 AM from too much food, I designed a downdraft gasifier in my mind
>using the above figures and found that a 3 kW stove, typical of gas/electric
>cooking in the U.S. would have an area of (3/0.2) 15 cm2 and a diameter of
>4.4 cm if it were operated in CONVENTIONAL downdraft mode. And not much more
>if operated with a turndown ratio of 2, below which DOWNDRAFT gasification
>can become unstable.
>
>Why is there so little turndown ratio in DOWNDRAFT GASIFIERS? I decided that
>it is because it is necessary to PULL the gas down through the fuel, even
>though hot gases desperately want to rise due to natural convection! So, how
>about turning it upside down so that the natural convection AIDS the motion
>of gas rather than opposing it?
>
>Stopping at my Daughters's house in Massachusetts on the way home, I took a 1
>lb coffee can, punched holes in the bottom, filled it with wood chips, lit it
>ON TOP (with a torch or some alcohol on the top layer of fuel) and was
>delighted to find that it burned steadily for about 15 minutes to produce a
>combustible gas - and a yield of 20-25% charcoal if you close the air holes
>after the volatiles have all been consumed. EUREKA, the INVERTED DOWNDRAFT
>GASIFIER was born!
>
>A conventional gas stove not only needs gas, but also needs to mix air with
>the gas in the right proportions and maintain a stable flame. I have been
>working on that problem ever since, first with natural convection (possible,
>but lazy flames) and now with the Turbo stove (fierce, clean flames from a 3
>Watt blower.)
>
>Let me urge you to try the inverted downdraft gasifier. Add a second can on
>top with lots of air holes to get a better gas flame. Venturi mixers, more
>chimney etc. all help, but the main problem is mixing the gas with the 4 to
>10 X air required for combustion.
>
>I first called the gasifier an "upside downdraft" (UPSIDE DOWN + DOWNDRAFT =
>UPSIDE DOWNDRAFT) gasifier (little joke - : ) ) but that confused non English
>natives. I then called it an INVERTED DOWNDRAFT gasifier. but even that
>seems too much for others. It has since been called "charcoal making"
>gasifier (Ron Larson) or open top . . or other names. Lots of papers out
>there by myself and others on the subject. I'll post a list soon, but we
>have been cautioned not to send files to the LIST.
>
> ~~~~~~~
>We are currently working at the Community Power Corporation to propogate the
>3 kW Turbo Stove in the countries around the world where it is sorely needed.
>
>
>Yours truly, TOM REED CPC/BEF
>
>
>The Gasification List is sponsored by
>USDOE BioPower Program http://www.eren.doe.gov/biopower/
>and PRM Energy Systems http://www.prmenergy.com
>
>Other Sponsors, Archives and Information
>http://www.nrbp.org/bio2000.htm
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/gasification-list-archive
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml

Thomas R Miles tmiles@teleport.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

From amsebbit at techmuk.ac.ug Sun Aug 27 13:30:34 2000
From: amsebbit at techmuk.ac.ug (adam sebbit)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:39 2004
Subject: Charcoal Briquettes from Bagasse (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10008221724280.673-100000@techmuk.ac.ug>
Message-ID: <200008271730.KAA14313@secure.crest.net>

Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:38:04 +0300
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211

From: Adam Sebbit <amsebbit@techmuk.ac.ug>

To: elk
I read your work with interest. We have lot of these trash - bagasse
around. Can we use it for commercial production of charcoal, to save three
trees?

What are your comments ?

Regards

Adam.M.Sebbit
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam.M.Sebbit
Makerere University
Department of Mechanical Engineering
P.O.Box 7062
Kampala, UGANDA
Tel: 256 -41-541173 / 545029
Cell 077-485803
Fax: 256-41-542377
----- Original Message -----
From: Faculty System Admin <admin@techmuk.ac.ug>
To: Adam Sebbit <amsebbit@techmuk.ac.ug>
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Charcoal Briquettes from Bagasse (fwd)

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:36:48 EDT
> From: Reedtb2@cs.com
> To: elk@net2000ke.com, stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: Charcoal Briquettes from Bagasse
>
> ELK:
>
> Congratulations on bagasse charcoal making. I once spent a week in Belize
> making charcoal from bagasse and I know it isn't a perfect feed - but it
is
> widely available. (I presume it would work also with the cane trash left
now
> in the fields).
>
> P Karve has demonstrated bagasse charcoal to us too. Are you going to her
> conference in Pune in November?
>
> Yours, TOM REED
>
> In a message dated 7/29/00 1:15:43 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> elk@net2000ke.com writes:
>
> <<
> Stovers;
>
> I'm sitting next to a small 'jiko' made of fired clay from the Nandi
Hills
> district of Kenya. In it, burning without smoke, smell or sparks is a
double
> handfull of charcoal briquettes I've recently made from bagasse- the
fibrous
> residue of pressed sugarcane.
>
> After rapidly sun-drying around 25% moisture from the bulky, light
coloured
> fibrous/flakey bagasse on the open ground, we carbonised 400 kg in our
> ceramic-bed kilns (previously described). Carbonisation was a joy- the
> lighter and larger particles of bagass carbonised extremely rapidly in my
> system, primarily due to larger particle size and lower density. There
was a
> slight smell of burnt sugar. The volatiles flared completely in the
> combustion chamber/chimney. Bagasse is much easier to carbonise than the
> sawdust this system was originally designed for.
>
> The conversion rate to charcoal powder was 31% from the air-dried
material.
> Sawdust conversion, by comparison, is 36% in this kiln.
>
> The briquettes, produced via low-pressure extrusion, are less dense than
my
> Vendor's Waste Briquettes made from salvaged wood charcoal dust. With 20%
> clay as binder, the sun-dried bagasse charcoal briquette (BCB?) is
> gratifyingly hard; comparable with lump charcoal made from softwood. BCB
is
> harder than the sawdust charcoal briquettes I've produced to date. I
wonder
> why that would be?
>
> Ash residue is 27%, and burning time is short- also on par with softwood
> derived charcoal- exhibiting a quick and easy ignition and short time to
> full heat. Ash remains in the original briquette shape; fragile and
light
> tan in colour.
>
> This small success opens up some big possibilities! Pity that the closest
> substantial supply of discarded bagasse is over 200 km from where I am
> located in Nairobi. The cost of transporting raw bagass 200 km obviates
any
> Nairobi-based BCB production.
>
> O.K.- back to the Jiko to warm up- it's COLD here in Nairobi during
August.
>
> elk >>
> The Stoves List is Sponsored by
> Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
> Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
> http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>

From larcon at sni.net Mon Aug 28 23:53:42 2000
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:39 2004
Subject: Forwarding Dr. Pimenta on container kiln
Message-ID: <v01540b01b5d097747844@[204.131.233.2]>

Stovers. This is a follow-up to a very interesting charcoal-making design
discussion we had around July 21. After I forwarded a first set of
questions to Dr. Pimenta, we received a full set of answers shortly
thereafter.

One day later, I sent a second set of more technical questions,
whose answers are given below.

As a reminder, let me say that Brazil produces a huge amount of
charcoal - replacing the more usual use of coke from coal for their steel
making industry. The charcoal-making that Dr. Pimental has developed does
flaring of the pyrolysis gases as well as capturing some of the chemicals
prior to flaring. He has made a huge contribution by finding a low cost,
clean alternative to a hundred-year old technology.

In order to avoid a need for the usual ">" symbol, I have below put
a few more ** LARSON COMMENTS IN ALL CAPS, in response to Dr. Pimenta's
thoughtful responses.

The remainder in lower case is all from Dr. Pimenta:

Dear Dr. Larson

I was riding in a very hard technical tour and I'm really late on answering
your questions. Then, do you know Rogerio?

** YES, I WAS ABLE TO VISIT WITH ROGERIO FOR A FEW DAYS ABOUT A YEAR
AGO. HE IS DOING EXCELLENT WORK, AS YOU KNOW, WITH PROLENA THERE - AND IS
AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS LIST DIALOG.

We did the graduate course and
M.B. at the same place in the eighties and we are very good friends. He's a
specialist you always can count him up. Exactly he has suggested me the use
of solar panels to generate electric power in case of working with
container kiln at remote areas.

It would be wonderful to take part of the meeting in India next november.
Could you send me more details about this?

** I WILL SEND THIS MESSAGE DIRECTLY ALSO TO DR. PRIYARDISHINI KARVE.
IT SEEMS PRETTY SURE THAT ROGERIO WILL BE THERE.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------

>1. During the rise from 200 oC to 500 oC (after the "...combustion chamber
>is closed..") , can you estimate the air leakage into the pyrolysis unit?
>That is, do you perceive that this exothermic reaction period takes place
>entirely without outside air flow?

I have not done it yet because the first commercial units are just being
released. You can think wrong this story, but all the research on charring
kilns here used to start by testing the equipments taking into
consideration only to their charcoal yields. I don't know if you get my
point but first the kiln was tested in some sizes and it is commercially
available already. In a second step, I am currently doing the mass and
energy balance from the commercial type. Your questions are very good and I
have right now a M.B. student doing a sharp work on this subject. Charcoal
here is so cheap that this kind of study only can be done after the
charring technology is considered really viable. In other words, I can be
doing a very good job about a technology will never be used.

We will try to observe this exothermic period by using several
thermocouples inside the kiln and a software that furnishes temperature
profile inside the kiln as a function of time.

** THANKS. I AM ESPECIALLY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU CAN OBSERVE ABOUT
AIR LEAKAGE TO SUPPORT THE EXOTHERMIC PROCESSES.

>2. Have you ever had an ability to observe this exothermic period through
>a window or other means of observing what is going on inside (color
>intensity, color changes vs time, direction of pyrolysis front movement,
>etc)? Can you tell anything from runs that might have been carried on for
>too short a period?

No, unfortunately I had not. When exothermic period takes place the only
signs we have to know it's occurring are indirect ones such strong release
of smoke followed by significant amounts of wood tar. This is the step of
charring where is produced most of the tar. But your idea for a window is
very interesting and I will check out in what extention I could run it. I
only have opportunity to observe this interesting period is when we carry
out micro-charring with our micro-thermal analysis system (a SHIMADZU one).
The exothermic reactions are difficult to characterize in slow pyrolysis
kilns. In the container kiln, the temperature rises from the top to the
bottom of the equipment, what means that the firewood is on the top is
charred a couple of hours before that one is on the lowest part. Thus, when
a zone of the charged firewood is being charred (at the temperature where
exothermic reactions take place) another part will be in a higher or lower
level of temperature (endothermic steps). This way, exothermic reactions
are disguised because the heat they generate is readily transferred to
another zone.

** THE PYROLYSIS ZONE ALSO MOVES DOWNWARD SLOWLY IN THE
CHARCOAL-MAKING STOVES - BUT THERE IS CERTAINLY A SMALL (INTENTIONAL)
UPWARD AIR FLOW IN THAT CASE. IT WILL BE VERY INTERESTING TO LEARN MORE
ABOUT THE ENERGY BALANCES AS YOUR WORK CONTINUES.

>3. You described a 1-hour combustion period and a 10-15 hour cooling
>period - but did not give the time for this important intermediate
>pyrolysis period. If this were perhaps about 6 hours, then one crew could
>handle one load per shift. But perhaps it takes longer, so each shift is
>working on several loads simultaneously? Could you clarify this time
>issue?

After the charring starts, normally one hour after woodwastes are burned in
the combustion chamber, a 8 - 10 period can be needed to make the charcoal. I
don't have the dynamic of shifts because all the installed kilns until now
are working alone. I know a farmer from Sao Paulo (a neighbor state) that
works with three kilns but they only make charcoal during daylight leaving
the charcoal cooling at night. But I have a company that's starting to buy
kilns and arranging them in clusters for full time production. Soon I will
be able to report you some details.

** THANK YOU - ALL IS CLEAR.

>4. Presumably a fair amount of energy is released during this exothermic
>pyrolysis period (as well as released during the cool-down). Has your
>laboratory explored possible uses of this heat? (such as for baking, water
>purification, etc in a village setting?) Could you compare the magnitude
>of this heat release to the energy release during the initial startup wood
>combustion phase (ie have you conducted and say more about an energy
>balance?)

In a next step, I'm intending to use the heat generated by flaring smoke
for firewood drying. In this way, I will try to make possible (with
advantageous costs) to dry firewood was just harvested finishing the need
of long four or five months in the field for natural drying (what means
that the farmer money is stopped in the field for five months).

** PREDRYING HAS BEEN A COMMON THEME OF OTHERS MAKING CHARCOAL IN THE
FIELD. BUT I ALSO HOPE YOU CAN FIND OTHER USES (ESPECIALLY COOKING) FOR
THE THERMAL OUTPUT.

>5. You have described the use of the 2.5 ton crane to move the container
>twice (in and out of the "insulating well"). Do you think it would ever be
>possible and/or advantageous to instead move the "insulating well" (perhaps
>on tracks)? What sort of R-values are needed for this "well"?

Several arrangements are possible but in fact the cheaper solution for us
was to use the crane. Other solutions were analysed but for our reality
this was the best. The insulating well is able to stop completely

** THANK YOU. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW YOUR APPROACH CHANGES
OVER TIME.

>6. Could you describe more on the magnitude and required skill levels of
>the work crew? In traditional charcoaling, this can be a one-person
>operation (over up to a week or more) - and maybe here also (but I guess
>not).

Since the end of charring is determined by temperature (450 - 500oC)
measured 40 cm above the bottom of the container, the carbonization can be
carried out by more than one operator. When the work shift ends and the
charcoalmaker goes home, other operator can replace him without any
problem. The substitute operator only will have to follow the rising of the
temperature and stop the process when the final temperature be reached.

** THANK YOU.

>7. Probably the #1 key in your approach is making the geometric changes
>at the two times when the temperature is appropriate (your 250 and 500 oC
>times). How critical or forgiving is this timing? Do you find that one
>thermocouple is sufficient - or do you need several?

I did not understand your point. Could you please explain this a little
better? In fact, in the research tests we are using four thermocouples.

** YES, I AM SORRY. LET ME TRY WITH TWO SPECIFIC EXAMPLES. SUPPOSE
THAT THE FIRST CHANGE WAS MADE LATE FOR SOME REASON - SAY AT 300 DEGREES.
WOULD THE OUPUT CHANGE APPRECIABLY? SHOULD ONE TRY TO COMPENSATE BY MAKING
THE SECOND CHANGE AT A LITTLE LOWER TEMPERATURE (SUCH AS 450?).
SIMILARLY IF ONE FELT ONE HAD TO MAKE THE FIRST CHANGE AT A SLIGHLY
LOWER TEMPERATURE (SAY 200 DEGREES), SHOULD ONE MAKE ANY COMPENSATING OTHER
CHANGES LATER?
IN OTHER WORDS, DO YOU FEEL THAT THE TWO "CHANGE-TEMPERATURES" ARE
NOT TOO CRITICAL - OR INSTEAD ARE THEY VERY CRITICAL?

>8. Since "stoves" is a list devoted to cook stoves, I must lastly ask if
>you think there is a potential in your charcoal-making system to provide a
>village-level gas supply system (like wood-derived "city-gas" in the old
>days) - which might be used for cooking and lighting? Might local
>"utilities" be established that might thereby lower the cost of the
>charcoal, while also giving a more healthful indoor air quality (IAQ)
>environment and fewer global warming exhaust gases?

All of this is really possible and a miscelaneous system like this could be
planned and tested. If you have some interest on this we can try to make a
partnership and evaluate the theme. Despite this subject has only a few
possible applications in Brazil I understand that it is possible to
investigate this from the point of view of another countries and cultures.
Would you mind to describe me more details about your job and researches?

** I AM PLEASED THAT YOU SEE THE POSSIBILITY OF A VILLAGE-SCALE
PIPED-GAS SYSTEM THAT WOULD BE BASED ON CHARCOAL PRODUCTION. (WE COULD SAY
THAT WE ARE "KILLING TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE'") WHAT IS NICE ABOUT YOUR
SYSTEM IS THAT YOU ALWAYS ARE GENERATING A COMBUSTIBLE GAS.

I PERSONALLY AM RETIRED. I AM UNFORTUNATELY PUTTING LITTLE TIME
INTO STOVE WORK THESE DAYS EXCEPT THROUGH THE "STOVES" LIST WORK. (MUCH ON
PUSHING OUR LOCAL UTILITY TO EMPLOY MORE RENEWABLE RESOURCES AND SEVERAL
OTHER RE PROJECTS).
I AM BY PROFESSION AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER AND FORMER EE PROFESSOR -
BUT HAVE BEEN INVOLVED MOSTLY IN RENEWABLE POLICY TOPICS SINCE 1973 - SOME
OF THE TIME AT WHAT WE NOW CALL THE US' NATIONAL RENEWABLE ENERGY
LABORATORY (NREL).
BECAUSE OF MY STRONG BELIEF THAT THE WORLD MUST FIND BETTER WAYS TO
MAKE CHARCOAL AND MUST ALSO FIND WAYS TO SOLVE SIMPLE COOKING TASKS, I
WOULD BE PLEASED TO WORK WITH YOU IN THIS (I HOPE) SMALL ADDITION TO WHAT
YOU ARE ALREADY DOING. I THINK THAT THE OVERALL COST FOR YOUR METAL
PRODUCTION COULD COME DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY IF THE "WASTE" PYROLYSIS GASES CAN
BE USED FOR VILLAGE COOKING. I HAVE BEEN HOPING FOR THE SAME RESULT AT THE
SINGLE FAMILY LEVEL. IT SEEMS TO ME THERE IS A NATURAL SYNERGISM (AT LEAST
IN SOME LOCATIONS) FOR CHARCOAL MAKING AND COOKING. I HOPE IT MIGHT BE
POSSIBLE IN BRAZIL.
THEREFORE I HOPE WE CAN FURTHER EXPLORE THIS OPTION TO PROVIDE THE
COMBINATION OF LOW COST CHARCOAL, LOW EMISSIONS, AND LOW COST VILLAGE GAS.
I HOPE THAT OTHERS WILL OFFER THEIR OPINIONS ON THE VALUE OF THIS OPTION.
AGAIN THANK YOU FOR SUCH A LONG AND COMPLETE RESPONSE.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Next year, more exactly in 2001 october we will be doing here the "First
International Congress on Biomass for Metal Production and Electricity
generation". At this moment, various technologies in using biomass for
electrical power generation will be presented. It will be a opportunity to
show the world how clean and ecologically friendly is the Brazilian
tropical metallurgy, a kind of industry where silicon, ferrous alloys
(Fe-Ni, Fe-Cr, Fe-Mn and many others), pig iron and steel are produced with
no acid rain gases realeasing. By using charcoal as reducer or thermal
reducer, our metal industries not only are sequestering dioxide carbon from
the atmosphere but they also are adding oxygen to it what is exactly the
opposite behavior comparing them to the traditional coal based ones.

Woodwastes and crop residues recycling, sawmill and harvesting wastes
recycling, electrical power generation in the pulp and paper mills, cooking
and lighting strategies based on biomass resources, opportunities of small
farmers in carbon sequestering businesses and the like.

This way, I am composing a list of persons I understand it will be
wonderful to get here for lectures and conferences at the Congress. Thus, I
would like to invite you, if you were interested of course, to be one of
our guests at the event and let us hear from you some of your experience on
some of the above ticked subjects.

** THANK YOU FOR THIS INVITATION. THIS LIST HAS SEVERAL OTHER MEMBERS
WHO WILL PROBABLY LIKE TO HEAR MORE ALSO.
I DOUBT THAT I COULD CONTRIBUTE MUCH TO YOUR CONFERENCE, BUT I AM
CERTAINLY NOW PLANNING TO COME TO AT LEAST LISTEN IN.

I think I will be sending you some photographs and schemes about the
container kiln is being built at the larger charcoal based metal industry
of Brazil named Vallourec & Mannesmann Tubes. These people produce
1,250,000 cubic meters of charcoal every year and after analysing a
significant number of propositions from Netherlands, USA, Russia, France
and others on charring equipments, they decided to adopt the container kiln
technology. Nowadays, part of the charcoal they produce is achieved by
using the old Missouri kilns that were used in you country more than 100
years ago, but here they were adapted to mechanic loading and unloading.

** CONGRATULATIONS ON HAVING GOTTEN THIS VERY LARGE ORDER. I PRESUME
THAT THE BIG DIFFERRENCE IN GLOBAL WARMING EMISSIONS MUST HAVE PLAYED A
LARGE ROLE IN THE VMT DECISION.

The Missouri kiln used here is able to pyrolyse 200 steres of firewood per
each charring run yielding at the end about 100 cubic meters of charcoal.
Despite the large amounts of charcoal are produced per charring run, as a
sad compensation, they take four days on charring and eight days on
cooling. This way, two 5 steres capacity container kilns are able to do the
same job of the Missouri kiln. The sum of price of the two container kilns
(about 12.000 american dollars) is under the price of one Missouri kiln
(17.000 dollars).

** I AM HOPEFUL THAT YOUR CHANCE TO OPTIMALLY USE THE PYROLYSIS GASES
WILL EVENTUALLY MAKE THE COST DIFFERENCE EVEN MUCH LARGER.

Best regards

Prof. Alexandre Santos Pimenta
Alexandre Santos Pimenta <apimenta@mail.ufv.br>

AND THE SAME TO YOU. RON

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Thu Aug 31 17:12:53 2000
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:39 2004
Subject: Forwarding Dr. Pimenta on container kiln
Message-ID: <63.a8ddcd7.26e023e7@cs.com>

Dear Kohlenbrenners (charcoal makers):

I hope that you will get Prof. Mike Antal at the Univ. of Hawaii involved in
this discussion. He probably knows and has written more about charcoal
making than anyone on this list. He has developed a method of increasing the
yield from 25-30% to 40-45%. That could save a little forest in Brazil.

What wood is being used in Brazil for charcoal making? How long does it take
to replace?

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF/CPC

In a message dated 8/28/00 9:56:45 PM Mountain Daylight Time, larcon@sni.net
writes:

<< Subj: Forwarding Dr. Pimenta on container kiln
Date: 8/28/00 9:56:45 PM Mountain Daylight Time
From: larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Sender: owner-stoves@crest.org
Reply-to: larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
To: stoves@crest.org
CC: apimenta@mail.ufv.br (Alexandre Santos Pimenta)

Sender: owner-stoves@crest.org
Received: from secure.crest.net (secure.crest.net [216.200.135.128])
by spdmgaab.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) with ESMTP id XAA11131
for <REEDTB@compuserve.com>; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 23:55:27 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (mail@localhost)
by secure.crest.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA19813;
Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:54:03 -0700
Received: by secure.crest.net (bulk_mailer v1.9); Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:53:46
-0700
Received: (from majordomo@localhost)
by secure.crest.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA19780
for stoves-outgoing; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:53:42 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: secure.crest.net: majordomo set sender to
owner-stoves@crest.org using -f
Received: from mailrelay2.sni.net (IDENT:root@mailrelay2.sni.net
[199.117.27.24])
by secure.crest.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19776
for <stoves@crest.org>; Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:53:40 -0700
Received: from [204.131.233.41] (p41.Denver1.dialup.csn.net [204.131.233.41])
by mailrelay2.sni.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA20130;
Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:53:28 -0600
X-Sender: larcon@lynx.sni.net
Message-Id: <v01540b01b5d097747844@[204.131.233.2]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:08:34 -0600
To: stoves@crest.org
From: larcon@sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Subject: Forwarding Dr. Pimenta on container kiln
Cc: Alexandre Santos Pimenta <apimenta@mail.ufv.br>
Sender: owner-stoves@crest.org
Precedence: bulk

Stovers. This is a follow-up to a very interesting charcoal-making design
discussion we had around July 21. After I forwarded a first set of
questions to Dr. Pimenta, we received a full set of answers shortly
thereafter.

One day later, I sent a second set of more technical questions,
whose answers are given below.

As a reminder, let me say that Brazil produces a huge amount of
charcoal - replacing the more usual use of coke from coal for their steel
making industry. The charcoal-making that Dr. Pimental has developed does
flaring of the pyrolysis gases as well as capturing some of the chemicals
prior to flaring. He has made a huge contribution by finding a low cost,
clean alternative to a hundred-year old technology.

In order to avoid a need for the usual ">" symbol, I have below put
a few more ** LARSON COMMENTS IN ALL CAPS, in response to Dr. Pimenta's
thoughtful responses.

The remainder in lower case is all from Dr. Pimenta:

Dear Dr. Larson

I was riding in a very hard technical tour and I'm really late on answering
your questions. Then, do you know Rogerio?

** YES, I WAS ABLE TO VISIT WITH ROGERIO FOR A FEW DAYS ABOUT A YEAR
AGO. HE IS DOING EXCELLENT WORK, AS YOU KNOW, WITH PROLENA THERE - AND IS
AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS LIST DIALOG.

We did the graduate course and
M.B. at the same place in the eighties and we are very good friends. He's a
specialist you always can count him up. Exactly he has suggested me the use
of solar panels to generate electric power in case of working with
container kiln at remote areas.

It would be wonderful to take part of the meeting in India next november.
Could you send me more details about this?

** I WILL SEND THIS MESSAGE DIRECTLY ALSO TO DR. PRIYARDISHINI KARVE.
IT SEEMS PRETTY SURE THAT ROGERIO WILL BE THERE.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------

>1. During the rise from 200 oC to 500 oC (after the "...combustion chamber
>is closed..") , can you estimate the air leakage into the pyrolysis unit?
>That is, do you perceive that this exothermic reaction period takes place
>entirely without outside air flow?

I have not done it yet because the first commercial units are just being
released. You can think wrong this story, but all the research on charring
kilns here used to start by testing the equipments taking into
consideration only to their charcoal yields. I don't know if you get my
point but first the kiln was tested in some sizes and it is commercially
available already. In a second step, I am currently doing the mass and
energy balance from the commercial type. Your questions are very good and I
have right now a M.B. student doing a sharp work on this subject. Charcoal
here is so cheap that this kind of study only can be done after the
charring technology is considered really viable. In other words, I can be
doing a very good job about a technology will never be used.

We will try to observe this exothermic period by using several
thermocouples inside the kiln and a software that furnishes temperature
profile inside the kiln as a function of time.

** THANKS. I AM ESPECIALLY INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU CAN OBSERVE ABOUT
AIR LEAKAGE TO SUPPORT THE EXOTHERMIC PROCESSES.

>2. Have you ever had an ability to observe this exothermic period through
>a window or other means of observing what is going on inside (color
>intensity, color changes vs time, direction of pyrolysis front movement,
>etc)? Can you tell anything from runs that might have been carried on for
>too short a period?

No, unfortunately I had not. When exothermic period takes place the only
signs we have to know it's occurring are indirect ones such strong release
of smoke followed by significant amounts of wood tar. This is the step of
charring where is produced most of the tar. But your idea for a window is
very interesting and I will check out in what extention I could run it. I
only have opportunity to observe this interesting period is when we carry
out micro-charring with our micro-thermal analysis system (a SHIMADZU one).
The exothermic reactions are difficult to characterize in slow pyrolysis
kilns. In the container kiln, the temperature rises from the top to the
bottom of the equipment, what means that the firewood is on the top is
charred a couple of hours before that one is on the lowest part. Thus, when
a zone of the charged firewood is being charred (at the temperature where
exothermic reactions take place) another part will be in a higher or lower
level of temperature (endothermic steps). This way, exothermic reactions
are disguised because the heat they generate is readily transferred to
another zone.

** THE PYROLYSIS ZONE ALSO MOVES DOWNWARD SLOWLY IN THE
CHARCOAL-MAKING STOVES - BUT THERE IS CERTAINLY A SMALL (INTENTIONAL)
UPWARD AIR FLOW IN THAT CASE. IT WILL BE VERY INTERESTING TO LEARN MORE
ABOUT THE ENERGY BALANCES AS YOUR WORK CONTINUES.

>3. You described a 1-hour combustion period and a 10-15 hour cooling
>period - but did not give the time for this important intermediate
>pyrolysis period. If this were perhaps about 6 hours, then one crew could
>handle one load per shift. But perhaps it takes longer, so each shift is
>working on several loads simultaneously? Could you clarify this time
>issue?

After the charring starts, normally one hour after woodwastes are burned in
the combustion chamber, a 8 - 10 period can be needed to make the charcoal. I
don't have the dynamic of shifts because all the installed kilns until now
are working alone. I know a farmer from Sao Paulo (a neighbor state) that
works with three kilns but they only make charcoal during daylight leaving
the charcoal cooling at night. But I have a company that's starting to buy
kilns and arranging them in clusters for full time production. Soon I will
be able to report you some details.

** THANK YOU - ALL IS CLEAR.

>4. Presumably a fair amount of energy is released during this exothermic
>pyrolysis period (as well as released during the cool-down). Has your
>laboratory explored possible uses of this heat? (such as for baking, water
>purification, etc in a village setting?) Could you compare the magnitude
>of this heat release to the energy release during the initial startup wood
>combustion phase (ie have you conducted and say more about an energy
>balance?)

In a next step, I'm intending to use the heat generated by flaring smoke
for firewood drying. In this way, I will try to make possible (with
advantageous costs) to dry firewood was just harvested finishing the need
of long four or five months in the field for natural drying (what means
that the farmer money is stopped in the field for five months).

** PREDRYING HAS BEEN A COMMON THEME OF OTHERS MAKING CHARCOAL IN THE
FIELD. BUT I ALSO HOPE YOU CAN FIND OTHER USES (ESPECIALLY COOKING) FOR
THE THERMAL OUTPUT.

>5. You have described the use of the 2.5 ton crane to move the container
>twice (in and out of the "insulating well"). Do you think it would ever be
>possible and/or advantageous to instead move the "insulating well" (perhaps
>on tracks)? What sort of R-values are needed for this "well"?

Several arrangements are possible but in fact the cheaper solution for us
was to use the crane. Other solutions were analysed but for our reality
this was the best. The insulating well is able to stop completely

** THANK YOU. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW YOUR APPROACH CHANGES
OVER TIME.

>6. Could you describe more on the magnitude and required skill levels of
>the work crew? In traditional charcoaling, this can be a one-person
>operation (over up to a week or more) - and maybe here also (but I guess
>not).

Since the end of charring is determined by temperature (450 - 500oC)
measured 40 cm above the bottom of the container, the carbonization can be
carried out by more than one operator. When the work shift ends and the
charcoalmaker goes home, other operator can replace him without any
problem. The substitute operator only will have to follow the rising of the
temperature and stop the process when the final temperature be reached.

** THANK YOU.

>7. Probably the #1 key in your approach is making the geometric changes
>at the two times when the temperature is appropriate (your 250 and 500 oC
>times). How critical or forgiving is this timing? Do you find that one
>thermocouple is sufficient - or do you need several?

I did not understand your point. Could you please explain this a little
better? In fact, in the research tests we are using four thermocouples.

** YES, I AM SORRY. LET ME TRY WITH TWO SPECIFIC EXAMPLES. SUPPOSE
THAT THE FIRST CHANGE WAS MADE LATE FOR SOME REASON - SAY AT 300 DEGREES.
WOULD THE OUPUT CHANGE APPRECIABLY? SHOULD ONE TRY TO COMPENSATE BY MAKING
THE SECOND CHANGE AT A LITTLE LOWER TEMPERATURE (SUCH AS 450?).
SIMILARLY IF ONE FELT ONE HAD TO MAKE THE FIRST CHANGE AT A SLIGHLY
LOWER TEMPERATURE (SAY 200 DEGREES), SHOULD ONE MAKE ANY COMPENSATING OTHER
CHANGES LATER?
IN OTHER WORDS, DO YOU FEEL THAT THE TWO "CHANGE-TEMPERATURES" ARE
NOT TOO CRITICAL - OR INSTEAD ARE THEY VERY CRITICAL?

>8. Since "stoves" is a list devoted to cook stoves, I must lastly ask if
>you think there is a potential in your charcoal-making system to provide a
>village-level gas supply system (like wood-derived "city-gas" in the old
>days) - which might be used for cooking and lighting? Might local
>"utilities" be established that might thereby lower the cost of the
>charcoal, while also giving a more healthful indoor air quality (IAQ)
>environment and fewer global warming exhaust gases?

All of this is really possible and a miscelaneous system like this could be
planned and tested. If you have some interest on this we can try to make a
partnership and evaluate the theme. Despite this subject has only a few
possible applications in Brazil I understand that it is possible to
investigate this from the point of view of another countries and cultures.
Would you mind to describe me more details about your job and researches?

** I AM PLEASED THAT YOU SEE THE POSSIBILITY OF A VILLAGE-SCALE
PIPED-GAS SYSTEM THAT WOULD BE BASED ON CHARCOAL PRODUCTION. (WE COULD SAY
THAT WE ARE "KILLING TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE'") WHAT IS NICE ABOUT YOUR
SYSTEM IS THAT YOU ALWAYS ARE GENERATING A COMBUSTIBLE GAS.

I PERSONALLY AM RETIRED. I AM UNFORTUNATELY PUTTING LITTLE TIME
INTO STOVE WORK THESE DAYS EXCEPT THROUGH THE "STOVES" LIST WORK. (MUCH ON
PUSHING OUR LOCAL UTILITY TO EMPLOY MORE RENEWABLE RESOURCES AND SEVERAL
OTHER RE PROJECTS).
I AM BY PROFESSION AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER AND FORMER EE PROFESSOR -
BUT HAVE BEEN INVOLVED MOSTLY IN RENEWABLE POLICY TOPICS SINCE 1973 - SOME
OF THE TIME AT WHAT WE NOW CALL THE US' NATIONAL RENEWABLE ENERGY
LABORATORY (NREL).
BECAUSE OF MY STRONG BELIEF THAT THE WORLD MUST FIND BETTER WAYS TO
MAKE CHARCOAL AND MUST ALSO FIND WAYS TO SOLVE SIMPLE COOKING TASKS, I
WOULD BE PLEASED TO WORK WITH YOU IN THIS (I HOPE) SMALL ADDITION TO WHAT
YOU ARE ALREADY DOING. I THINK THAT THE OVERALL COST FOR YOUR METAL
PRODUCTION COULD COME DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY IF THE "WASTE" PYROLYSIS GASES CAN
BE USED FOR VILLAGE COOKING. I HAVE BEEN HOPING FOR THE SAME RESULT AT THE
SINGLE FAMILY LEVEL. IT SEEMS TO ME THERE IS A NATURAL SYNERGISM (AT LEAST
IN SOME LOCATIONS) FOR CHARCOAL MAKING AND COOKING. I HOPE IT MIGHT BE
POSSIBLE IN BRAZIL.
THEREFORE I HOPE WE CAN FURTHER EXPLORE THIS OPTION TO PROVIDE THE
COMBINATION OF LOW COST CHARCOAL, LOW EMISSIONS, AND LOW COST VILLAGE GAS.
I HOPE THAT OTHERS WILL OFFER THEIR OPINIONS ON THE VALUE OF THIS OPTION.
AGAIN THANK YOU FOR SUCH A LONG AND COMPLETE RESPONSE.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Next year, more exactly in 2001 october we will be doing here the "First
International Congress on Biomass for Metal Production and Electricity
generation". At this moment, various technologies in using biomass for
electrical power generation will be presented. It will be a opportunity to
show the world how clean and ecologically friendly is the Brazilian
tropical metallurgy, a kind of industry where silicon, ferrous alloys
(Fe-Ni, Fe-Cr, Fe-Mn and many others), pig iron and steel are produced with
no acid rain gases realeasing. By using charcoal as reducer or thermal
reducer, our metal industries not only are sequestering dioxide carbon from
the atmosphere but they also are adding oxygen to it what is exactly the
opposite behavior comparing them to the traditional coal based ones.

Woodwastes and crop residues recycling, sawmill and harvesting wastes
recycling, electrical power generation in the pulp and paper mills, cooking
and lighting strategies based on biomass resources, opportunities of small
farmers in carbon sequestering businesses and the like.

This way, I am composing a list of persons I understand it will be
wonderful to get here for lectures and conferences at the Congress. Thus, I
would like to invite you, if you were interested of course, to be one of
our guests at the event and let us hear from you some of your experience on
some of the above ticked subjects.

** THANK YOU FOR THIS INVITATION. THIS LIST HAS SEVERAL OTHER MEMBERS
WHO WILL PROBABLY LIKE TO HEAR MORE ALSO.
I DOUBT THAT I COULD CONTRIBUTE MUCH TO YOUR CONFERENCE, BUT I AM
CERTAINLY NOW PLANNING TO COME TO AT LEAST LISTEN IN.

I think I will be sending you some photographs and schemes about the
container kiln is being built at the larger charcoal based metal industry
of Brazil named Vallourec & Mannesmann Tubes. These people produce
1,250,000 cubic meters of charcoal every year and after analysing a
significant number of propositions from Netherlands, USA, Russia, France
and others on charring equipments, they decided to adopt the container kiln
technology. Nowadays, part of the charcoal they produce is achieved by
using the old Missouri kilns that were used in you country more than 100
years ago, but here they were adapted to mechanic loading and unloading.

** CONGRATULATIONS ON HAVING GOTTEN THIS VERY LARGE ORDER. I PRESUME
THAT THE BIG DIFFERRENCE IN GLOBAL WARMING EMISSIONS MUST HAVE PLAYED A
LARGE ROLE IN THE VMT DECISION.

The Missouri kiln used here is able to pyrolyse 200 steres of firewood per
each charring run yielding at the end about 100 cubic meters of charcoal.
Despite the large amounts of charcoal are produced per charring run, as a
sad compensation, they take four days on charring and eight days on
cooling. This way, two 5 steres capacity container kilns are able to do the
same job of the Missouri kiln. The sum of price of the two container kilns
(about 12.000 american dollars) is under the price of one Missouri kiln
(17.000 dollars).

** I AM HOPEFUL THAT YOUR CHANCE TO OPTIMALLY USE THE PYROLYSIS GASES
WILL EVENTUALLY MAKE THE COST DIFFERENCE EVEN MUCH LARGER.

Best regards

Prof. Alexandre Santos Pimenta
Alexandre Santos Pimenta <apimenta@mail.ufv.br>

AND THE SAME TO YOU. RON

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net >>
The Stoves List is Sponsored by
Pyromid Inc. http://www.pyromid.net
Stoves Webpage, Charcoal, Activated Carbon
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
Other Sponsors, Archive and Information
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/stoves-list-archive/
http://www.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From larcon at sni.net Thu Aug 31 22:09:46 2000
From: larcon at sni.net (Ronal W. Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:36:39 2004
Subject: Forwarding Clark on Ethanol Gel as alternative cooking fuel.
Message-ID: <v01540b04b5d426626878@[204.131.233.38]>

Stovers - The following message came in privately, but I think was intended
for full "stoves" list distribution. Certainly there are others on
"stoves" with more knowledge of this particular type of stove than I.

Brett - I have subscribed you to "stoves. Let me know whenever I should
drop you off. You can directly communicate with "stoves@crest.org" to
reach about 185 current subscribers.

I hope you don't mind my sending your excellent e-mail on to the
full "stoves" list. I hope that was your intention.

We have not had much discussion along this line, but I know that
there are list members who will have some comments and I hope will do so
through the full list.

One similar topic that came out of Zimbabwe a few years ago was the
use of Jatropha oil - using a plant that is probably available also in
South Africa. Perhaps someone can refresh our memories on this.

The product that comes closest is what we call "Sterno". I haven't
yet looked up your web site, but I presume your product is similar?

Best of luck - pleas ekeep us informed of your progress,

Ron

Dear Sirs,

To briefly introduce myself, I am a Director of a South African Company that
is very involved in dealing with innovative products that have health,
environment and safety advantages for the Developing nations. Obviously as
South Africa is our home a lot of our focus is local. I have read the
correspondence on the stove site with interest and thought you might be
able to assist us with a bit of information and/or advice.

We have a product called Mlilo Quick Stove, which is a low cost disposable
cooking unit with some reusable parts. This stove runs on an ethanol gel. We
developed the stove to address the present relief aid and disaster relief
situations. Whilst the UN policies regarding Health, Safety and the
environment are clearly defined, at present the preferred fuels in these
situations are still Paraffin, Coal and wood. This stove addresses all of
the previously mentioned concerns. At present we are trying to market the
product to the UN and any other relief aid agencies that may be interested.
The UNHCR have just done a test with the product in a refugee camp in
Namibia with very favourable results. I think for you to get a better
understanding of the product you should view our website. www.branmer.com

The reason for this correspondence is that we have started doing research
into the possibility of trying to replace or supplement the paraffin and
other harmful fuels market with this Ethanol gel technology, the present
domestic use paraffin market in SA is in the region of 1 billion lt a year
with worldwide users in excess of 550 million people. The environmental and
health aspects related to these fuels needs innovative solutions, of which
you seem to play a major role. We would also like to be part of finding the
solution. The present situation has suppliers looking for markets for their
ethanol production, and excesses in the corn and sugar cane markets driving
prices down forcing farmers to look for alternate revenue sources for their
crops. This is perhaps the ideal time to create an innovative solution that
will address all these issues.

Do you know if any research or thought has gone into the possibility of
using this alternative fuel to supplement or replace the harmful existing
fuels?

We also obviously need to look into the development of a more permanent
refillable stove. Is there perhaps someone you know that has experience with
stoves that make use of a similar fuel, it probably has different dynamics
to coal or wood burning stoves. We already have a few prototypes but would
like to know if there is someone we could talk to that might be interested
in helping us with further development or at least steer us in the right
direction?

I really would welcome any thoughts or criticisms you might have with regard
to our project.
Kind regards
Brett Clark, <BIT@worldonline.co.za>

Branmer International Trading

Tel : (+2711) 465 4041
Fax: (+2711) 467 3606
sales@branmer.com

Ronal W. Larson, PhD
21547 Mountsfield Dr.
Golden, CO 80401, USA
303/526-9629; FAX same with warning
larcon@sni.net

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

August 2000 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive