December 2001 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From dstill at epud.net Sat Dec 1 02:49:42 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:25 2004
Subject: Emma asks about testing lorena and three stone
Message-ID: <000801c179fe$377d57e0$4d15210c@default>

Dear Das,

When I came to Aprovecho in 1989, staff started seriously comparing the
Lorena to the open fire. Aprovecho had helped to invent the stove and felt
responsible that it wasn't as great as first thought...The Lorena stove was
always much worse than the open fire and pot in tests but I tried to point
out in my previous reply that it is very difficult to quantify the
difference since operator expertise greatly determines how much wood is
being expended in both cases.

In 1999, I had my class of 14 inexperienced college students make 42 three
stone fires, outside in a mild breeze. The results ranged from 7.6% to 17.8%
and none of these testers had previous experience. The three stone fire has
many advantages over stoves! No heat is diverted into a stove body. Fire
contacts the bottom and sides of the pot. Sticks can be metered into the
fire so there is almost complete combustion. The pan is close to the coals,
etc.

Putting any kind of a box around a great natural phenomena does not make it
a better machine.

It takes a good stove to beat a good three stone fire. Stoves with obvious
problems often have poorer fuel efficiency. I hope this is one of the
hurdles that we have collectively jumped over since 1976 (invention of the
Lorena) when the paradigm was that given the terrible inefficiency of an
open fire, even dense stoves with poor heat transfer mechanisms just
naturally had to be vastly more fuel efficient. By 1982, people in Central
America wrote about how Lorena stoves had other good qualities but that they
were not fuel saving. That was 20 years ago and frequently people in the
field are not aware of this history.

I believe that the big problem in Appropriate Technology stove making is
that there have not been enough follow up studies and that promoters do not
understand thermodynamics. Bad stoves replace bad stoves. Information does
not flow in any direction: from the field, to the lab, to the money. We need
to do better to efficiently get good stoves to the billions of people using
biomass which protects health of humans, forests, planet.

Looking at the advantages of the three stone fire showed designers how to go
a step further and create simple, inexpensive, durable stoves that were 30
to 40% fuel efficient. Trying to change the paradigm that earth is a good
insulation continues to be a great challenge. All over the world, folks are
building earthen stoves under the mistaken impression that earthen walls
insulate around the fire. Books by Baldwin, Prasad, Micuta, etc, etc. have
somehow not gotten this simple message to stove builders: Earth is not good
insulation, instead earthen walls around a fire cool it, creating poorer
combustion, and earthen walls divert heat from the pot, decreasing fuel
efficiency.

The paradigm of earth as good insulation is alive and well. When I speak to
architecture classes there is general agreement that earth, of course, is
great insulation. Most folks think of adobe walls as insulating not
realizing that they moderate temperatures because adobe is low R and
conductive. The adobe house allows heat and cold to quickly enter the wall
so that wall temperatures stay around a 24 hour average, great in the desert
where day is 90 F and night is 50F. But high mass, low R walls are terrible
here in Oregon where day is 40F and night is 30F. Maybe that's why we
realize the value of insulation! The difference between mass and insulation
has not made it into the general awareness of even the educated professional
classes here in the U.S.

Yikes!

Appreciating the advantages of the three stone fire began the transition to
modern, more fuel efficient, low emission, AT cooking stoves. So I have to
write the story once in a while because it is a good one, I think...

Aprovecho has wanted to find insulative earth mixtures in part because if
designers had spent the time to do so initially in 1976, the damned Lorena
might have been as great as they thought it was.

Best,

Dean

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
-
Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
http://www.bioenergy2002.org
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Sat Dec 1 07:31:38 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:25 2004
Subject: thermoelectric devices
In-Reply-To: <001801c179c0$80aeb6e0$3115210c@default>
Message-ID: <OE45DYztws7rBPq6xJa00008249@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: thermoelectric devices

> Dear Paul,
>
> This radio device has been manufactured for decades in both Russia and China
> , I believe, where it is (was?)certainly cheaper to purchase. If we are
> interested in this device perhaps someone could contact representatives from
> these countries, as well?
>
>
> Best,
>
> Dean

Referring to http://www.radiolantern.com. I have not yet been able to yet
confirm current Russian or Chinese sourcing of a generic equivalent (although
the world's largest Thermoelectric Institute is in Russia). I've been looking at
their journal archives, corporations and products. That is an avenue to
investigate - good suggestion. I'm also hoping a list member here has more
information on that as cost is always an issue.

At the Radiolantern website there is information about economical technology
transfer to developing countries (good news):

http://www.radiolantern.com/dist.html ...

... but also a notice of a cease and desist advisory being issued to their
former Belgian R&D corporate ally, Dump Sprl/VOCALUX ASB http://www.vocalux.org,
to the effect saying that VOCALUX could not sell their Radiolantern products
("lanterns fitted with thermoelectrical generators"). So ... there may or may
not be a European source for this "particular" TEG, or thermoelectric generator.
There's at least one other European company (Italian) that makes a different TEG
that operates on waste heat, to produce electrical power. Proof this technology
has been applied in many developed and developing countries.

Anyway, I ferreted out further background on this TEG, at a specialty lantern
firm:

http://www.lanternnet.com/lanternsradio.html

"While it is true that this concept is not new, this is the first time a
practical device of its kind has been produced. Over eight years ago research
and development began on a project known as the LUFO radio lantern in Belgium.
This resulted in a practical device, but too costly, to the point of limiting
it's marketability severely. Rather than scrub the project, an American team
was formed, GWI, and another year of developement and testing in the United
States was invested. From the additional research new, patented design and
manufacturing methods were developed, resulting in a more versatile product that
is cost effective. This additional research has paid off in the form of what we
now know as the Liberty Power Generator."

Also in my "travels", I came upon other TEG's that share system construction,
using off-the-shelf TEG components. I apologise for haphazardly dumping these
URL's about ... but having said that, here's some good thermoelectric stove
URL's (haha) that show a way, other than Radiolantern's innovative system. Note
that computer muffin fans are used to force cooling of the devices heat sink
fins, thereby boosting the power output by increasing the temperature gradient
across this solid state device. You get power generation and as a side effect,
the fans blow warmed air into the room. Pre-warmed primary and secondary air
would be no stretch therefore on cookstoves. No moving parts (other than the
fans) with device life quoted variously between 10,000 and 100,000 hrs, being
limited only by thermal cycling wear-and-tear (intermittent stove heat up's and
cool down's causing the thermoelectric module to expand and contract).
Everything is powered by wood alone or whatever combustible fuel you burn.

http://www.hi-z.com/websit13.htm
http://www.triz-journal.com/archives/1997/01/a/index.htm

en fiero,
Chris Smith

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Dec 1 07:50:52 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:25 2004
Subject: Paul's trip in Dec: also "Re: Re: Stove test offer"
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011127110500.01744920@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <002401c17a01$bc022e20$61e80fc4@home>

Dear Paul 'n' all

I have had a look at the Boy Scout briquettes from Moçambique
and they are pretty strong. That is a good sign to begin with as they will
ship well. They are many different colours which was a surprise. The
moisture content is a little high which is to be expected in Maputo this time of
year. I am taking them to Bloemfontein on Monday to show the lady in
charge of the big briquetting project there (that is the 10,000 per day
place).

We will look at them with a view to eventually getting some
more biomass into the system, but at the moment there is PLENTY of material from
the municipal dumps without getting into the vegetation. I am taking two
Basintuthu demo stoves, one with separately controlled secondary air and one
with substantially preheated primary air to demonstrate the paper-sawdust
Cubes.

I noticed on the Afghans near the Pakistan on TV on Euronews
burning a number of different types of fuel. In fact they showed several
pots cooking in closeups on their "No Comment" video.

All the biomass was very poor in quality and none of it look
like trees or branches at all. It would all have been better burned if
first consolidated and also the wind was taking a terrible toll on the
efficiency - open fires in the wind with a single 4 or 5 litre pot on it.
Even in a mud stove there would have been a considerable (75%?) saving in fuel
if it was sheltered and there was some sort of secondary air
supply.

There is a region southeast and east of Lesotho in the Eastern
Cape Province of South Africa (see an atlas) which has similar vegetation as was
shown on TV in Afghanistan - no trees - not even much in the way of
bushes. It is pretty twiggy stuff that would benefit from densification
and a 'container' of some kind for the fire. The stove should be able to
fit inside the pot. That means a collapsible cone shape that can be pulled
up and the fire lit inside. People would be willing to make and carry
that, especially with the benefit of a very large saving in fuel.

The fuel I saw in Uganda which was basically tightly bound
grass might be an example to advocate here. Take the fuel twigs and jam
them into a can about 100mm in dia and then bottom light it for
gasification. The upper part would have to be shielded so the gas fire
would not be blown away from the pot.

I am thinking of those drinking glasses my mother used to
carry in her purse that were made of conical rings and they collapsed into a
flattish disk. You pulled on the outside one and a watertight cup stood
up. How about a portable stove like that?

Regards
Crispin

From tombreed at home.com Sat Dec 1 08:21:54 2001
From: tombreed at home.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:25 2004
Subject: New Paradigm for Cook Stoves
In-Reply-To: <000801c179fe$377d57e0$4d15210c@default>
Message-ID: <026701c17a6a$0ae84200$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>

Dear Stovers all:

The letter from Dean below is possibly the best yet on the PHILOSOPHY of
making better stoves for developing countries. Read it and weep for the
billions of people still cooking wastefully and smokily in spite of the
millions of dollars mis-spent during the 1980s and 1990s on "improved
stoves".

Dean has a little of Mea Culpa in his message, since the Lorena stove came
from Aprovecho - but not under his watch. Now they are making a wide
variety of truly improved Rocket and Plancha stoves.

(However, I still deplore heavy brick construction, even when it is Ken's
insulating brick. Vermiculite, perlite and RISER SLEEVES insulate better
with 10% of the weight. Metals CAN withstand combustion heat if properly
chosen and designed. All my Rocket Stoves (if I ever make one) will be of
metal.)

Time to get focussed on adding some science and even modern materials to
solving the world's stove problems.
~~~~~~
One problem that I focussed on at Aprovecho is that primative people who
have survived many generations using minimum cooking (3 stone stove etc.)
are difficult to educate to new ways. I kept hearing from Ken and Dear that
there would be 1-2 villagers who followed instructions on the Rocket Stove,
and all the others would gradually abandon essential parts.

From Carefreeland at aol.com Sat Dec 1 12:53:50 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: Old Paradigm, introducing new old materials.
Message-ID: <44.17406898.293a7324@aol.com>

Stovers,
There is one missing ingredient here that explains the difference between
fact and theory on refractory vs. metal stoves. It has been touched on but
never fully explained.
Look at the diffrence between a brick fireplace and a woodstove. It's
all about thermal mass and conductivity. I have built very efficiant fires
for heating my homes, in masonry fireplaces. You have to use the devise as
it was designed and intended.
The masonry fireplace takes up to two days to reach full operating
temperature. It is designed as a continuously operating devise, not an
"evening burn" devise. For the first several hours the flue steals most of
the heat and must be preheated to be efficiant.
The metal wood stove, on the other hand, heats much quicker, but cools
just as fast. If any stove is cool, it is inefficiant. If almost any stove
is hot, it is efficiant, provided proper air mixing.
No mater what devise you use to burn (or run in the case of an internal
combustion engine) operating temp is what we all need to be looking at.
I have a small improved potbellied type stove in my greenhouse made for
wood and coal. It was made long ago, by the King Stove Co. in Sheffield
Alabama, and is called KING-O-HEAT. It has all the modern features like
primary and secondary air. The combustion chamber is vertical staves of 2"
thick firebrick, only as far as the carbon goes. The upper part of it is only
the 1/8" thin "rolled iron" I can't find anywhere anymore, that makes up the
body of the stove. The cap (StoveTop) is cast aluminum iron alloy, for heat
transfer to a pot.
I have fired this both top down and bottom up with great success. My
favorite way is to start with top down burn, to achieve operating temp
cleanly on clean dry woodchips. Then I just add wood from the top, and the
hot combustion chamber, with just the balance of thermal mass and
recirculation, burns virtually anything clean, bottom up.
The door vents for secondary air are such that the air rolls around the
hot iron parimeter before joining the fuel gas. I can talk for days about
what this stove has taught me. My guess is that some old charcoal AND coal
ironmaster devised this. This is the height of old stove technology. Then
the oilburner came along, and all this got thrown out the window.
The key my friends is in the balance. The balance of materials and
design.
I belive hot rolled, thin, high carbon iron, was just the key. It went out
with all that cheap steel that Andrew Carniegie, Henry Bessemer, and company,
dumped on the market. Someday, we will see if it can make an amazing
comeback. It just needs the right market, like 2 billion biomass cookstoves.
In the mean time, we can try to make a substitute with thicker high
carbon steel.
Try black iron large diameter gasline, or thin well casing, for your
combustion chambers. Some rigid square shape metal stock is higher carbon
too. Look around.
The carbon helps insulate and heat sink the metal. It doesn't raise the
melting temp(actually lowers it just a little) but the high carbon iron
material holds its rigidity till almost melting temp. Big difference of
almost a thousand degrees F here. You don't "work" iron. You pour it or
nothing. Unless you are a 19th century ironmaster that knew just how it was
done. White hot rolling, is Lost, dangerous art.
The thicker the metal, the longer the burn to be efficiant. Thin rolled
iron holds up past an orange heat. It's an amazing material, now lost to the
ages. If I try to bring it back, will you support me?
I'm taking "hypothetical" orders today. Target price? US $50.00 per
hundred pounds weight. The more orders I get, the harder I'll work. It may
take years, so your name on the list is all I can promise. When It's time to
test the material, first on the list, get's first access to marketable test
stock, no warrantees at this time.
If anybody can find a comparible product, let me know. Price and all.
And I thank you for your support.
Daniel Dimiduk
Future Ironmaster, Ohio Charcoal and Iron Co.
E-mail at carefreeland @aol.com title: ROLLED IRON ORDER

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Sat Dec 1 15:40:36 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: thermoelectric devices
In-Reply-To: <001801c179c0$80aeb6e0$3115210c@default>
Message-ID: <OE55WIiNnmJ5CY3J7ck00010427@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: thermoelectric devices

> If you want to add a thermoelectric generator to a woodstove, I'd
> think it much more economical to buy just the basic modules rather than
> the quite expensive radiolantern or other commercial unit which would
> then have to be adapted.
> Here's a list of manufacturers and other info:
> http://www.peltier-info.com/generators.html
>
> Some of these things can be quite powerful:
> http://www.hi-z.com/websit07.htm
>
> However, let us remember, there's no free lunch. I'm wondering if
> taking heat from the stove might inhibit gasification? For instance, the
> outside wood boilers which have become popular in the US are horrible
> polluters, principally because the poor design surrounds the combustion
> chamber with the boiler, and combustion temperatures stay well below
> what is needed for real gasification.
> Also realize that these peltier devices all need heat on one side,
> but also cooling on the other, in order to generate electricity. The
> above 1KW unit, for instance, is cooled by the truck radiator. Here's a
> page which gives equations for the process:
>
> http://www.ferrotec-america.com/3ref13.htm
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com

Harmon,

Yes, I figured that was probably the best route to take - placing any
thermoelectric module on the outside of the stove. Around the outside of a
short chimney, maybe. TEG powered fan air blown past the heat sink fins could
be just ducted to where it's wanted at primary and secondary draft ports. For
that matter, seems to me that water heating could still be accomplished without
compromising combustion heats by either bathing the heat sink fins in water or
using heat pipes (even better) of the type designed for this purpose on TEG's.
Perhaps in this instance, design amends that free lunch clause with at least a
no free brunch proviso. After all, the cold side of the TEG is hanging out
there away from the stove body. I was also considering HZ stock TE modules as a
method to consider using. You may have noticed I mentioned using the same
solution using HZ-14 modules -- pictured again below (even though they use a
stove with an external water boiler, as you pointed out, the TEG itself does not
seem to be the culprit here):

"Also in my "travels", I came upon other TEG's that share system construction,
using off-the-shelf TEG components."

http://www.hi-z.com/websit13.htm
http://www.triz-journal.com/archives/1997/01/a/index.htm

Notice at the 2nd URL (above), temp logging determined the hottest outside area
of a cookstove to place the stock HZ TEG for best performance. The only
practical consideration that might be limiting is the material within the TEG
itself. Temp's reached in excess of 200-300° C (these upper limits vary among
the usual Bismuth Telluride and Antimony Telluride-based themoelectric modules,
secondary to manufacturer) as the solder melts, reflows and destroys the units.
Higher temps are possible using silicon germanium-based stock equipment that
use clamping conductivity instead. I believe the HZ-14's and 20's we are
referring to are common Bismuth Telluride-based though but aren't heated past
viability on the outside of the stovepipe -- I think you are right and we could
just use those, unless we placed them inside the stove. That might take one of
those radioisotope decay heated Russian deep space silicon germanium-based TEG's
...

- Chris Smith

PS: I also have been at the useful website you suggested and have been in
communication with the site owner, who is adding a link for the Ecofan TE
device. I was remiss in not mentioning it before:

http://www.peltier-info.com/generators.html

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 1 17:59:47 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: high temperature resistant metals
In-Reply-To: <000401c1750c$2de934c0$5915210c@default>
Message-ID: <3oei0uc7d5phcgvq6gubqgheldd5m459gn@4ax.com>

On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:02:43 -0400, "Kevin Chisholm"
<kchishol@fox.nstn.ca> wrote:

>
>You have probably heard the old saying "The best way to solve a problem is
>to eliminate it in the first place." As it applies to stove design, the
>best way to solve scaling problems is to design with refractories, rather
>than metals. In my furnace designs, I try to use refractories wherever
>possible, and where tension elements are required, I try to design the
>refractory so that the metal requirements are at relatively low
>temperatures.

I am late to the thread and running behind on stoves posts: I have
been suggested Kanthal an alloy of aluminium, chromium and iron used
in kilns and also inconel. The nickel alloys seem to cost about
GBP9/kg here in UK. Kevin's mention of tension elements interested me
as I wondered if inconel wire from discarded electric furnaces might
be used to reinforce a lightweight castable refractory insulator. IIRC
steel reinforcing in concrete works because the steel and concrete
have similar rates of expansion over the normal ambient temperature
range, I doubt we would find a similar corresponding change to inconel
in insulating materials but we may well tolerate a little cracking.

One of my points about powered draught is that it enables the gases to
follow tortuous paths which natural convection could not easily manage
(without a very good and tall chimney), as well as premixing the
secondary flame to enable the gases to combine in a shorter distance.
The benefit here is as in jet engines, the incoming air stream cools
the metal surfaces and recovers heat before it is lost through the
stove walls, this way the outer insulation can be of lower temperature
materials.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 1 18:00:35 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: Tiny holes in stove tops
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011129212707.0175a550@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <fggi0usj7297cckumttadvgs03cfm20in9@4ax.com>

On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:15:38 -0600, "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:

>
>1. I visited the campfire stoves site that showed alcohol burners with
>tiny holes in top of tin cans to get a ring of very small flames (like a
>residential gas stove).
>
>2. One problem with the IDD gasifier ala Reed and Larson is the mixing of
>the produced gases with secondary air to get a good burn.
>
>3. Tiny holes mean lots of air (with oxygen) around a tiny jet of
>gas. Sounds good for mixing purposes.

It is but remember with the alcohol stoves the power for these jets
come from the alcohol being vapourised, in the Reed-Larson IDD stove
you only have the natural convection of the small length of "chimney"
between the pyrolysis front and the stove outlet, this is a very small
draught effect.

Also the pyrolysis products contain vapourised tars which are still
undergoing thermal reactions such as cracking to soot, these tiny
particles may well like a small nozzle to cling to especially if it
attached to a heat sink.

I had a look at the camping stove sites, in general I thought the tin
can and rocket stoves were better though out, what these trekkers
bring to the table is the source of lightweight materials.

I was interested to see that despite the drive to lose ozs of weight
from the stove alcohol was the preferred fuel to transport. The thing
about alcohol is that it is easy to burn cleanly, possibly because it
is already partly oxidised, but because it has this OH group its
energy density is considerably less than a hydrocarbon. The
hydrocarbon liquid fuel needs either a wick to vapourise and
distribute the fuel or a pressure jet to premix it with enough air. It
also brings to mind that ultimately bio derived fuels are becoming
very attractive for automotive use as the route to cleaning up the
engine is becoming harder, the impurities in petrochemicals are
becoming a limiting factor also.

I noticed another poster has worried about carrying a forced draught
stove into the wilds in case it breaks down or the batteries go flat
or the sun doesn't shine. Aside from the cost issues for PV and
batteries and third world use, should this happen the three stone fire
remains an option as long as the know how is not lost. It would seem
foolish to go wandering with a high tach, battery powered GPS and no
compass (surely the most deserving device to be coupled to a hand
powered generator).

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 1 18:01:24 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
In-Reply-To: <048a01c175bb$a9c552e0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <7fii0u88nh7puf5oftenfuukrt4le090hi@4ax.com>

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:59:13 -0600, "Paul S. Anderson"
<psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:

>This IS what is needed. Campstove will translate into household stove for
>the poor.

I doubt it, camp stove needs lightness and this can include a trade
off between fuel weight even versus free wood fuel. The biomass ones
(including the storm kettle) are little more than bonfires in metal
cases.
>
>I have seen Tom Reed's TURBO stove in operation. It is FORCED
>convection. Disadvantages of needing a motorized blower and batteries
>(small but too costly for the very poor).

This is my thinking, however a couple of things make me wonder, one is
that these small blowers are assisting natural draught, they use very
little power (just enough to promote flow and Tom's micromixing) as
opposed to the full blown devices I play with. Tom quotes figures of
0.4W, and cells at 25c. With rechargeable cells (300 charge recharge
cycles) and a PV with potential for 25 years how affordable could we
get?
>
>Tom taught me (and I learned from my experiences) that a LOT of air is
>needed, and my use of an innertube for the air supply was not successful
>(VERY early experience, so others might have more luck or expertise).

Shame, what were your experiences, it looked to me that an inner tube
would have the characteristic of storing a modest amount of air at
reasonably constant pressure.
>
>BUT, maybe we only need the forced convection (IDD type) for the primary
>air (much lower volume) to create a substantially greater amount of
>gas. And then we solve the problem of secondary air volume separately (as
>with air inlets and chimney and whatever).

I think this is a reasonable route to follow, it is not what I want to
play with but a pressurised idd chamber will produce volumes of offgas
which may entrain the secondary. I think there are a number of
problems with this route.
>
>Crispin has an awesome water pump. I wonder what kind of air pump might be
>possible. I like the idea of human weight being the source of the pressure
>to force the air. Sit on the air-bladder and a valve controls the forced
>air to the fire. But the bladder must refill rapidly, or be on a see-saw
>for shifting weight back an forth.

I liked the suggestions of blood pressure equipment and also the cream
dispenser which was mentioned, however my feeling is that they could
only be used as a priming device (as in the Primus stove) thereafter
the benefits of powered air supply (premixing and flame shortening)
should be derived from a heat engine of some sort. With 3kW(t) and
fully blown (i.e. no chimney effect) stoves we are probably looking at
air movement power in the order of 10W+. Sustain this for one hour and
you need 36000 Joules with 100% conversion efficiency ( not possible
because compressing a gas and expanding it is lossy). As my memory
tells me a Joule is a Newton Metre, then we need to move 12000 Newtons
through 3m to achieve this. That is I believe a weight of 1.223 tonnes
raised to above ceiling level! Obviously the benefits as seen in Tom's
camper-blower stove would be seen with 50kg carried upstairs and
running a blower as it fell to ground over the hour.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 1 18:02:06 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: CO detection and rambling
In-Reply-To: <2801e29838.298382801e@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <ckmi0uog7qcfsp81ih69g3fejmqcj79ce0@4ax.com>

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 01:05:02 -0800, Tami Bond <Tami.Bond@noaa.gov>
wrote:

>
>I would agree-- if only because it's non-detectable and immediately
>dangerous. Any other opinions? I think we want PM (particulate matter),
>but CO might be more important. Smoke is one indicator of health
>hazards, but you can (obviously) produce CO without smoke once you get
>to solid-phase burning-- what some call charcoal. Probably, we want to
>measure both CO and PM, just like Grant did.

I think Alex pointed out it is the CO2 to CO ratio that is likely to
indicate the fuel ratio quality of the burn. CO, PM and PICs are the
things that relate to human health and I suspect the actual form of
the PM 2.5-10 range are a long term issue with regard to lung damage.

I assume that the set of biomass stoves includes the subset of visibly
clean burning stoves which also includes the whole of the subset of
clean burning stoves? What I would like to see is an agreement on what
a clean burning stove should emit. Will it be to the same standard as
a modern car engine or better? Then what is the allowable
concentration of this flue effluent when diluted and in an enclosed
living space?

Further can we establish what levels of opacity of smoke indicate? How
many grammes per cubic metre of flue effluent are visible as a blue
haze?

As we will often be considering boiling with a pot, and any flue gases
exceeding about 150C will be wasted heat should the sampling include
being aside a metal container at 100C.

In my playing with combustion of dry wood, and to reinforce Dean's
recent point about cold surfaces quenching the flame, I can have a log
burning, apparently, cleanly in my Jotul, the log can be pyrolysing in
a shield of its own offgas flames when the air supply is low. If I
open the door and allow masses of dilution air to enter I can plainly
see the flame lift off the end of the log as it is quenched. Once it
has re stabilised itself by burning back to the log ( a fascinating
phenomenon in itself) I can snuff it simply by moving a cold lump of
brass toward it. The especially interesting thing is seeing the offgas
vapours condensing and swirling around the brass further away from the
log than I would have expected.
>
>1) What is it that makes eyes sting from smoke? Gaseous organics?
>Particulate matter? It's not the CO, which is non-detectable.

I do not know but it is the single thing that I can use as a judgement
on an apparently visibly clean burning device. We are told that NOX
emission from wood burning is unlikely to be a major effect so it must
be unburnt or cracked organic compounds. I know from bitter experience
that a high revving 2stroke engine in a confined space (root plate
cavity or heavy foliage) is very acrid and I had always put this down
to NO2.

>c) CO is too difficult to detect. (But we can detect 50 ppm of NO2, and
>trace organics at far lower concentrations. CO does bind to organic
>molecules-- like hemoglobin, or it wouldn't be dangerous!)

A bit gory but this may be a cheap indicator, notwithstanding a lot of
us may not be meat eaters.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 1 18:02:45 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
In-Reply-To: <048a01c175bb$a9c552e0$18e5b618@lakwod3.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <0ini0u8aaug8fpbie66ua2de26v42ked2e@4ax.com>

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:44:57 +0900, Keith Addison
<keith@journeytoforever.org> wrote:

>Have you seen this thing?
>http://journeytoforever.org/teststove.html

My immediate impression was it is well built, you seem to have far to
much potential to supply primary air, with dry wood this leads to a
sooty flame. Minimise primary air and increase secondary air
turbulence seems to get better results.
>
>
>>Thermoelectric. Serial thermocouples of dissimilar metals heated,
>>producing at
>>their junctures enough additive electron flow through these circuits
>>to power a
>>primary air fan.
>
>I was thinking of this, but I don't know enough about it. It struck
>me it might be the simplest way. There's not much power there but a
>small fan wouldn't need very much. Thermocouples are quite common,
>shouldn't be too expensive.

I see there are further posts on this, the materials that give good
output seem only to like hot side temperatures of ~500C and ambient on
the other, their thermal conductivity being the loss through the
system (as heat rejected at the hot side is the flue gas flow and can
be used for cooking). Consider also the high emissivity mantle and a
gallium arsenide photo voltaic device operating in the infra red
region, this seems to give the highest conversion per photon in.

What I have not been able to establish is whether the heat losses due
to this class of device are worth the better burning thy may allow. I
have my doubts with dry wood, other biomass and coal may offer better
prospects for improvement.
>
>>Steam nozzle porting to a fan (double-circuited system?). Exiting
>>steam from a
>>heated kettle spout spins a turbine attachment, mechanically linked via an
>>external vertical shaft and gearing to a horizontally positioned fan blade
>>adjacent to the primary air draft beneath? Too Rube Goldberg-esque?
>
>Or steam from a water jacket, with insulation between the water
>jacket and the outer skin? There's plenty of heat for that. Can't
>quite picture it though... Rube Goldberg-esque's just fine, as long
>as it works!

I can picture it well, strikes me it has a lot of potential, I have
previously posted about the drawbacks, I shall be looking into this
further.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 1 18:03:24 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas campstove
In-Reply-To: <v04210114b82802b9fd44@[192.168.0.200]>
Message-ID: <qsmi0u8k9ugiil8n796qjl69opkdl238gs@4ax.com>

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:28:11 -0600, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:

> I can see the possibility of improving the IDD stove (the afore mentioned
>chimney, for one) which might be might be effective and fairly simple to

Trouble with a chimney is where to put the cooking pan, it can sit in
a hole in the flue path but then you need one hole for each cooking
pot, every extension you add to the stove becomes a surface which will
lose heat.

>implement. My next model will attempt to preheat both primary and secondary air by
>putting the Reed/Larson IDD stove into another slightly larger can so the air has
>to come down from the top, along the outside of the IDD stove to reach the primary
>draft opening in the bottom, and, of course, the secondary air inlets above the
>fuel bed.

I would be interested to see if you avoid the problems I found, and
previously posted.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 1 18:03:58 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: Questions on CO monitoring
In-Reply-To: <009001c1775a$edc42020$edf76641@computer>
Message-ID: <54ni0usul6g6hs4pu8bpk2uhh46ii7gcde@4ax.com>

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:33:34 -0800, Tami Bond <tami.bond@noaa.gov>
wrote:

>S
>I've seen the $220 CO monitor that Harmon posted yesterday. That is the
>one with 10-minute response time. One advantage is its ability to record
>the data.
>
Someone has corrected this I think, the impression I got that once up
to operating temperature it will sample quicker than this.

>What are CO ranges from your burning? 2000 ppm is high for a gas furnace
>but not for an automobile.

Yes but what figure is acceptable? A car engine has to complete its
burn in ~5ms, I have not calculated the retention time in a small
stove but it is hundreds of times slower than this so we should get
nearer to completion.
>
>People who are actually making and measuring stoves: What do YOU think
>about need for real-time measurements and quick response times? Do you
>think the burning is steady enough that 10-minute response is good
>enough?

The response time will depend on the stove, we can expect to see high
CO peaks just after "loading" new fuelwood and in the char burning
phase before reloading.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Sat Dec 1 22:59:23 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: Fw: Verhart on "Efficiency vs health impacts (forward from Alex English)" (on downdraft stoves)
In-Reply-To: <014401c1795e$04881b40$bae26641@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011202134351.009d1450@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 22:14 29/11/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Snip

> The main point is that the Khan geometry is not an "inverse" (of the
>charcoal making stove I have been describing). Neither is the situation
>described next by Piet (because there doesn't seem to be primary air control
>there either.)

There is no direct control of either primary or secundary air. The chimney
provides the draft. The configuration of the fuelbed (thickness,
permeability) determines the rate of flow of gas through the fuelbed and
grate. Part of the air reacts with the fuel, burning char and releasing
volatiles. The volatiles as well as more air pass through the fuelbed,
heating up and mixing. Downstream from the grate the volatiles burn,
needing a certain length of the passage to do so. Further downstream we
have a mixture of CO2, traces of CO, some O2 and a lot of N2.

>Piet said next:
> > I have made several attempts at designing something that would produce
> > charcoal while the flames from the volatiles provided heat for cooking as
> > well as for the charring.
>snip

> Piet - This is not downdraft - right ? (which I interpret to be air
>flow downward through the fuel)? (Although there is bottom lighting of the
>fuel supply.) Was there any possibility of air entering the top of the
>inner cylinder? (I don't believe that primary air through the top is
>necessary for this to work - but it would help in power output control.. I
>believe that Professor Grover developed a "toroid" system rather like this -
>but with the flames on the inside. No primary air control. I saw two in
>operation in Zimbabwe in 1995 - making charcoal. Do I have the correct
>interpretation?

No, this was not downdraft. We tried all kinds of things. No air was
supposed to enter through the top of the container and it would have
trouble doing that, it was a machined cast iron lid fitting snugly into the
top of the container. Heat for charring was expected to flow from the
outside of the container inward.

Piet

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From ZBihari at ormat.com Sun Dec 2 04:32:21 2001
From: ZBihari at ormat.com (Zoli Bihari)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: TEG components
Message-ID: <727CFCBBE1C3D41181FC005004201AA0C70437@ORMAT-NT>

Hello to all the list members,

Some months ago I was looking for an electricity source for one of
my projects and since I have experience with TEGs in the electronics cooling field,
I decided that the TEGs can be a good solution for me.

There are many manufacturers, but the "only" problem,
at least for me, was the price in the quotations I received.
And this project is not a stove for the developing countries, but a much more expensive unit.

Take a look at
http://www.heatsink-guide.com/links.htm#peltier

for a list of manufacturers with purchasing possibilities trough the net.
Part of them are with and part of them are without order limit.

The parts are very easy to assemble and there are also DIY kits
for student labs.

I recommend to take a look to the Melcore site where you can
download "Aztec", a software that helps to identify the components you need.

Good luck!!!!

Zoli

Zoli Bihari
R&D - Ormat Ltd. - Israel
Tel: 972 (8) 9433894
Fax: 972 (8) 9439901
E-mail: zbihari@ormat.com

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Dec 2 10:49:03 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: Afghanastan stoves
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011127110500.01744920@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <00f101c17b48$7dd5a620$71e06641@computer>

Crispin: In your message of Friday last you
said about stoves for Afghanistan:
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
The fuel I saw in Uganda which was basically tightly bound
grass might be an example to advocate here. Take the fuel twigs and jam
them into a can about 100mm in dia and then bottom light it for
gasification.

(RWL):   I have a disconnect here
- virtually all our discussion on this list has used the terms
"top-lighting" and "gasification" together. Could you clarify your
intent in this last sentence?

The upper part would have to be shielded so the gas
fire would not be blown away from the pot.

(RWL):   I certainly agree - but want
to emphasize also that the secondary air holes need shielding. These
stoves are very sensitive to wind (possibly a very good reason for
powered stoves)

I am thinking of those drinking glasses my mother used to
carry in her purse that were made of conical rings and they collapsed into a
flattish disk. You pulled on the outside one and a watertight cup stood
up. How about a portable stove like that?

(RWL): Certainly a
possibility.  Have never seen one. Will need a means of
either hanging it to let gravity do some supporting - or add a stabilizing
feature.

Paul Hait also achieved similar effect with folding
"Pyromid" stoves - using a built-in piano-hinge style of
"fold".
Ron

From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Dec 2 11:40:31 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: Stoves and strong interest in collaboration
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011130143543.01ab06d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011202104321.01744310@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

We received a quick reply about the radiolantern, so I am posting it to you
(because their reply cannot be posted by them because they are not
subscribers to the Stoves list serve.).

Paul

At 07:11 PM 12/1/01 -0800, FIBEX INC. wrote:
>Dear Mr. Anderson:
>
>Thank you for this message.
>I am replying on behalf of Mr. Hons-Olivier who is travelling, and won't be
>back for another two weeks.
>Please excuse any incomplete answers:
>
>1. & 2.: Over 20 years: there are no moving parts
>3. No, but we can sell you a sample at a 20% discount, since it is for
>humanitarian purposes
>4. Yes
>5. I don't know, but in any case some sort of confidentiality agreement needs
>to be in place before we can give out this type of information.
>6. It's possible to do that. We would be happy to provide you with an
>estimate of what the study and prototyping of your particular application
>would
>cost, if you so desire.
>
>Thank you for your interest in radiolantern.com.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Veronica, for
>Gabriel Hons-OLivier
>GW Industries, co-founder
>San Diego, CA, USA
>www.radiolantern.com
>sales@radiolantern.com
>
>"Paul S. Anderson" wrote:
>
> > Hello to radiolantern management (and to the Stovers).
> >
> > I am a professor involved in Africa and also working on the issue of
> > gasification of biomass fuels for household cooking in Africa and similar
> > areas. I am interested in your radiolantern for powering a small blower or
> > fan for a small family stove.
> >
> > But I am also interested in determining if the stoves (single-burner types)
> > I am working on could provide the heat needed for driving the
> > radiolantern. I have several questions below.
> >
> > Note: I am posting my message to you to the entire Stoves listserve
> > (several hundred activists), and I request that you reply to me AND to the
> > two addresses below so that your reply can be posted to the listserve. (I
> > could be in Africa before you reply, so I would like the list moderator Ron
> > Larson to receive your reply and post it, or Chris Smith who called our
> > attention to your company and product.) You will be talking to world
> > experts in issues of fire and heat as well as some novices, but all with
> > interests in the impoverished people for whom your product is well
> > suited. Depending on your reply, you might receive several inquiries from
> > the Stovers.
> >
> > stoves-help@crest.org>
> > Chris Smith <hotspringfreak@hotmail.com>
> >
> > My questions:
> >
> > 1. What is the life expectancy of a radiolantern?
> >
> > 2. Will any parts wear out?
> >
> > 3. Can an "exhausted radiolantern" be recuperated, and for how much?
> >
> > 4. Could an overseas entity build the units if licenses are arranged?
> >
> > 5. If built in Africa (for example), disregarding any labor costs or
> > marketing or royalties or other sales issues (to be discussed later), what
> > would be the cost of the basic materials in small quantities and in large
> > quantities?
> >
> > 6. If I (or other Stovers) provided an appropriate heat source that runs
> > on twigs, sawdust briquettes and waste biomass in general, we could be
> > interested in having it manufactured and marketed along with the
> > radiolantern.
> >
> > I (we) await your reply.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Dec 2 12:35:12 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: thermoelectric devices - TED
In-Reply-To: <001801c179c0$80aeb6e0$3115210c@default>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011202105023.01708f00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Chris and Stovers, Maybe we will have something going on this topic of
TEDs and stoves.

1. Assume for a moment that an efficient gasifier unit produces a STEADY
stream of not-too-strong gases that are burned and give the flame that you
desire. (You specify what flame / heat is needed for the TED.) The
gasifier can be loaded to burn for at least one hour without attendance,
and when the gasification ends, the little primary air that enters is
insufficient for much combustion of the remaining charcoal, so it sort of
dies back but continues to "smolder" until it is attended by someone.

1.A. (To All: If left unattended, would the "smoldering" charcoal cause
a health risk of CO or other stuff? If not a problem, then we are better
off.)

2. Above (or inside??) the burner section which is above the gasifier, the
heat goes to the thermoelectric device (TED), and is directed totally to
the "heat-needing side" (does that have a scientific or better name?). The
un-used heat continues upward, either to a chimney or to a "warming plate"
(hardly could be called a stove), then it is gone.

3. The TED is part of something like a chimney segment that is
double-walled. That would look like two concentric metal rings. All of
the "heat-needing" surfaces are on the inside of the inside wall, thereby
being the surface of the chimney where the heat (and flames?? undesirable
to have flames touch the TED itself ??) passes upwards.

4. All of the "heat-loosing" surfaces (the side that must be cooled) of
the TED are therefore on the outside wall of the inside cylinder. They
are trying to radiate the heat outwards into the space between the two
cylinders.

4.A. Yes, we could do away with the entire outside cylinder in some
situations where ambient air gives sufficient cooling, but please read on.

5. By natural convection NC or by a forced draft driven by a fan that is
powered by the TED, the air in the space between the cylinders keeps moving
and is therefore a supply of CLEAN warm air for any needed purposes.

5.A. Alternatively, the space between the cylinders could be filed with
coolant (water if we want warmed water, or engine coolant if we think of
vehicle radiators) provided that the unit is constructed to hold a
liquid. The simple one is to merely heat water for domestic use, but the
water could (?) get so hot that the TED stops working. But even that would
not be totally bad if the lower electricity production (therefore the
lights dim????) signals that the bath water is sufficiently warm (just an
example).

SUMMARY: First, it needs to be clear that TED technology, capabilities,
limitations, and uses are well established, and those who know about them
(not me) can describe uses that would be appropriate for rural and urban
poor or for the camper. But second, and what is of interest to the Stoves
list, is that a dedicated biomass-driven NC IDD gasifier could be used to
drive the TED.

Observation: This basically assumes that the electricity from the TED is
of sufficient value to justify the cost of the TED and the gasifier to
drive it.

MAYBE this makes sense. If not, please disregard my imaginations.

Paul

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Sun Dec 2 13:59:29 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: thermoelectric devices - TED
In-Reply-To: <001801c179c0$80aeb6e0$3115210c@default>
Message-ID: <OE17DUqWVmJxEQBqPXR00016628@hotmail.com>

Waste heat from the stove (outside the stack) should be the power source for fan
forced convection. Primary heat would be for cooking unless this would be a
primary function of the device. A "Y" manifold could be placed at stove top to
route heat both to the cook pot and to the TEG, if was determined that directly
above the stove would be the best place for placement of the TEG, not just
direct contact with the body of the stove. Still, staggering the stove outflow
slightly to the side atop would leave sufficient flat contact space for a
radiolantern TEG to reside and not inhibit heat conduction to a cook pot.
Various configurations, let alone the double circuited insulated liquid jacket
solutions you propose come to mind. Channelled heated fluid within the stove
(non-toxic?) could contact the hot side of the TED, allowing placement to be
other than the stovetop, wherever heated fluid is directed. The stove fan could
blow across the heat sink fins increasing power output by increasing temperature
gradient between hot and cold sides of the device, additionally preheating
intake air ducted to the drafts. A sufficient cooling effect was observed with
160° F water passing the TEG's cool side (instead of ambient air) as noted in
one online Peltier device doc. That's perfect for household uses, esp if a
gasifier is scaled up beyond single burner cookstove size. Again, waste heat is
desired, not compromising efficient combustion, cooling "the burn". The larger
Hi-Z HZ-14 TEG looks appropriate for this dual use - details are published in
cookstove TEG docs published also online and also previously mentioned on this
list thread.

- Chris Smith

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: "Chris Smith" <hotspringfreak@hotmail.com>; <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>; "Apolinário J Malawene"
<ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; "Bob and Karla Weldon" <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; "Ed
Francis" <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; "Tsamba--Alberto Julio" <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: thermoelectric devices - TED

> Chris and Stovers, Maybe we will have something going on this topic of
> TEDs and stoves.
>
> 1. Assume for a moment that an efficient gasifier unit produces a STEADY
> stream of not-too-strong gases that are burned and give the flame that you
> desire. (You specify what flame / heat is needed for the TED.) The
> gasifier can be loaded to burn for at least one hour without attendance,
> and when the gasification ends, the little primary air that enters is
> insufficient for much combustion of the remaining charcoal, so it sort of
> dies back but continues to "smolder" until it is attended by someone.
>
> 1.A. (To All: If left unattended, would the "smoldering" charcoal cause
> a health risk of CO or other stuff? If not a problem, then we are better
> off.)
>
> 2. Above (or inside??) the burner section which is above the gasifier, the
> heat goes to the thermoelectric device (TED), and is directed totally to
> the "heat-needing side" (does that have a scientific or better name?). The
> un-used heat continues upward, either to a chimney or to a "warming plate"
> (hardly could be called a stove), then it is gone.
>
> 3. The TED is part of something like a chimney segment that is
> double-walled. That would look like two concentric metal rings. All of
> the "heat-needing" surfaces are on the inside of the inside wall, thereby
> being the surface of the chimney where the heat (and flames?? undesirable
> to have flames touch the TED itself ??) passes upwards.
>
> 4. All of the "heat-loosing" surfaces (the side that must be cooled) of
> the TED are therefore on the outside wall of the inside cylinder. They
> are trying to radiate the heat outwards into the space between the two
> cylinders.
>
> 4.A. Yes, we could do away with the entire outside cylinder in some
> situations where ambient air gives sufficient cooling, but please read on.
>
> 5. By natural convection NC or by a forced draft driven by a fan that is
> powered by the TED, the air in the space between the cylinders keeps moving
> and is therefore a supply of CLEAN warm air for any needed purposes.
>
> 5.A. Alternatively, the space between the cylinders could be filed with
> coolant (water if we want warmed water, or engine coolant if we think of
> vehicle radiators) provided that the unit is constructed to hold a
> liquid. The simple one is to merely heat water for domestic use, but the
> water could (?) get so hot that the TED stops working. But even that would
> not be totally bad if the lower electricity production (therefore the
> lights dim????) signals that the bath water is sufficiently warm (just an
> example).
>
> SUMMARY: First, it needs to be clear that TED technology, capabilities,
> limitations, and uses are well established, and those who know about them
> (not me) can describe uses that would be appropriate for rural and urban
> poor or for the camper. But second, and what is of interest to the Stoves
> list, is that a dedicated biomass-driven NC IDD gasifier could be used to
> drive the TED.
>
> Observation: This basically assumes that the electricity from the TED is
> of sufficient value to justify the cost of the TED and the gasifier to
> drive it.
>
> MAYBE this makes sense. If not, please disregard my imaginations.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Dec 2 22:22:12 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: Afghanastan stoves
Message-ID: <a0.1e638bb4.293c49d6@aol.com>

Ron, Crispin,
A month or two ago I mentioned to Tom R., the best way I could find to
add draft feature without coming out the top of the stove. What I had
conceived of was an aluminum tube of large diameter, that transferred heat
down to the base of the stove. This enables preheating the air, and creating
a thermal lift into the primary and secondary air passages.
I didn't develop this thought at the time, (half baked) but out cutting
grass one day, I realized how to incorporate that same concept of the
collapsible cup.
The aluminum would have to be insulated at least a little on the
outside, or it would heatsink the stove until too cold.
The base would act like an oven to dry the biomass, and any resulting
steam would help reform tar as the stove heated up. I doubt one could use
very wet material without a big stove and long burn. Maybe if you started
with dry material from the previous burn. A small door would allow entry and
exit for the biomass to be dried in the oven base.
The top of the stove could have some kind of collapsible gas burner that
would hold the pot. As the stove burned down to charcoal, the burner could
be lowered around or inside the pyrolysis chamber, enabling the efficient
"slow burn " of the charcoal with the pot at ever closer optimum distance.
The way to control the "collapse" of the stove would be to use some kind
of three peg and slot system. A "staircase" slot could allow for adjustment
to proper height.
Toss this around. Maybe now that the thought is "cooked medium rare" it
will start to make sense. Turn it over with some other stovers, and we'll
see if we can make it "well done" in due time. Most of my projects start
with the theory and slowly progress to reality.
My skid and chip burner is also in the "thought cooking" stage so bear
with me. Maybe one night out plowing snow at 4: 00 am in January or
something like that, the completed design will start to turn a crispy "just
right."
Keep on stovin',
Dan Dimiduk

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Dec 3 08:36:48 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
Message-ID: <f6.134a7080.293cd99f@aol.com>

Dear friends:
Many of us are looking for a lower ash content in our biomass and
charcoal for a number of reasons. The most important being Metallurgic
purposes.
One of the experiments I have been running off and on for several years
may help guide us in this area. My original goal was growing plants in a
hydroponic medium for as long as possible, to produce flowers and fruit as in
tomatoes, without having to take new cuttings.
The problem is the build up of primarily calcium and potassium salts,
phosphorus and possibly silicon, which slows down the uptake of nutrient. A
good tissue analysis is lacking here.
The primary way I achieved success in this area was to start with low
dissolved solids in the water to begin with. This in my case, meant
rainwater. According to my PPM pen (no longer working) my rainwater was
running about 5-10PPM dissolved solids@6.5-7.5pH, compared to water from the
runoff ponds at 100-225PPM, creek water 150-250PPM, well water at 175-300PPM
and city tap water at 225-350PPM. These had correspondingly higher pH as well
up to 8.3 pH.
A lot of those dissolved solids I believe were carbonate, which is
terrible for hydroponic solutions and plants, as it buffers hard to the
alkaline side.
Then, I looked at my nutrient solution and made sure the pH was where I
wanted it to be. I then balanced ALL minerals as well as I could, taking into
consideration the leachate from the containers. If minerals came back out,
they were not being used. By allowing pH to shift back and fourth between
waterings (the topic of an important separate discovery I made in 1993) I was
able to pump nutrient into the plants at much lower dissolved solids levels.
The results were amazing. Food plants had better flavor. The plants grew
better, and the resulting tissue had lower ash when burned. I burn most plant
residues to help heat my greenhouse after drying. The cost of fertilizer was
lower because I was using less.
Now although my cistern cannot supply all of my water needs, I dilute my
well water with it to lower the overall PPM and still use much less
fertilizer.
I believe there is much more research needing done here and a good tissue
and leachate analysis would be a start.
When growing trees and plants for biomass production we need to make sure
any fertilizer used is optimizing the soil conditions to take advantage of
this effect.
I believe we need to look at the soil that our lowest ash wood is growing
in to begin with, and look for low carbonate level. Ironically most wood
grown in iron producing areas grows on a limestone base and this is not
condusive to low ash without some attention to soil chemistry.
I'm not sure, but what we may want to do, is grow trees that thrive in
the alkaline environment without dissolving quite so much calcium carbonate
through acidifying effects of topsoil. Maybe the pines use more nutrient from
acid area in the topsoil and therefore don't intake so much calcium
carbonate, resulting in lower ash. The oaks grow so slow that maybe the
calcium is better "filtered out" and that is why they live so long. Both
produce an acid foliage that drops and acidifies the surface soil.
Has anybody tested the content of Sycamore? It is listed as bad for
coaling but that is based on old methods. How about Ash tree wood?
I submit this study only as a preliminary look at the opportunity here.
Much work must be done to take advantage of soil science.
Comments?
Here's for cleaner charcoal, for stronger iron and steel
Thank you,
Daniel Dimiduk
Shangri-La Research and Development Co.
Dayton, Ohio, USA

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Mon Dec 3 14:01:21 2001
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Healed of virus...
Message-ID: <11a.8244125.293d25fa@cs.com>

It only cost me a day to fix up... The virus attacked the same day that EXCITE@Home.com/AT&T went belly up. I'm clean of viruses now and will be wary in future. Can be dangerous out there in cyberspace..

If you haven't added my new address,

reedtb2@cs.com

to your book yet, add it until AT&T gets its cable connection act in order (and I decide whether to stay with them..).

I believe that Cyberspace Terrorists should be DRAWN AND QUARTERED. They cause millions of people to waste 1-20 hours, thus destroying many lifetime-equivalents. This is MURDER (in small pieces) and should be punished accordingly, now that we are getting serious about anti-terrorism. Pass it on...

TOM REED BEF PRESS STOVEWORKS

(From Dan Dimiduk)
Tom,
Hey, I found you again. What possessed you to just take off on a "walkabout " in cyberspace? Young man, does your Mom know where you've been? Back in your old hiding place I see. I was looking everywhere for you, we were all so worried you could have gotten hurt, or run over by a car. Running around in the rain. There's all kind of nasty viruses out there and you just may have caught one. Now go back home and wash up for dinner before she sees how dirty you got. ;-)
Seriously, I received this E-mail with an attachment called "you are fat" replying to "carbonisation" letter in stoves from last month. The sender was a "Dr. Chai. " I sent a return to say "I don't open attachments" and it bounced saying "fictitious address". I looked and some of that code Tom Miles warned us about was in it.
Here it is, Don't open it, can you trace it? Maybe it is related to what you got.
Dan Dimiduk

Dr. Thomas B. Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
TomBReed@home.com
www.woodgas.com

From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Mon Dec 3 15:41:54 2001
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:26 2004
Subject: Healed of virus...
In-Reply-To: <11a.8244125.293d25fa@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3C0B8F32.19067.7BAFDF@localhost>

Tom,

> I believe that Cyberspace Terrorists should be DRAWN AND QUARTERED. They
> cause millions of people to waste 1-20 hours, thus destroying many
> lifetime-equivalents. This is MURDER (in small pieces) and should be
> punished accordingly, now that we are getting serious about anti-terrorism.
> Pass it on...

Hey, I agree with the sentiment, but face it - if you don't have *and
maintain* a good virus-checking program, you're basically having
"unprotected internet sex" every time you download mail.

On top of that, if you use Micro$loth Outlook for email, you're asking
for it. It's wide open for abuse.

Believe me I am sympathetic - hey, once I had the pleasure of being
informed that the demo disks my company was handing out at a
tradeshow were all infected - but the only thing that works is
protection and vigilance. Be suspicious of any attachment. If you're
in doubt, just delete it and ask the sender to resend if it's legit.

Cheers,
-smw

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Tue Dec 4 02:37:49 2001
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yudkevich Yury)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: T Reed Change of Address
In-Reply-To: <59.140a17d5.293cd222@cs.com>
Message-ID: <003001c17c96$b7c898c0$7e3fefc3@a1g0h5>

Dear Tom Read and all:
I have received your letter. I wish to you and all list members happy
Christmas, happiness and prosperity in New year. I hope, that the terrible
shocks of this year will leave together with it.
I was the participant 1st International Congress on Biomass for Metal
Production and Electricity Generation from October 08th to 11th, 2001 in
Belo Horizonte, Minas Gerais, Brazil. I expected, that someone will tell
about it, having best English language, than I. Some list members were the
participants. The participation in a congress was very interesting and
useful. You can look a site http://www.issbrazil.org/congress1.htm or write
to Congress' President Marco Antonio Castello Branco Presidente da Iron and
Steel Society Brazilian Section marco.cbranco@vmtubes.com.br

I wish to you new successes
Yury

Yury Yudkevich, Dr. Assoc. prof.
Sanct-Petersburg State Forest Technical Academy,
Department of Forest Chemical Products
and Biological activity Substunces
fone/fax 7+812+5520430
5, Institutsky per. St.-Petersburg, 194021, Russia
woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru

----- Original Message -----
From: Reedtb2@cs.com
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 4:03 PM
Subject: T Reed Change of Address

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From emma at george.as Tue Dec 4 07:12:47 2001
From: emma at george.as (emma@george.as)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Re. testing lorena stoves
Message-ID: <20011204121241.21765.qmail@www1.nameplanet.com>

Thanks for the attachment Piet! but I have a couple of questions about these
standard procedures:

I want to do a boiling test with a high power and low power phase,

What's the point in boiling water at high power for 30 mins as indicated in
the "simple efficiency test"? how can you measure the power "used" in this
boiling? Have I missed something? Isn't it better to bring the water to the
boil as fast as possible and use only that period for the high power
measurements?

Also: Should I put the pot on the stove and start the stopwatch as soon as the
stove is lit? Surely the stove takes a little time to reach maximum power
output. In that case I wouldn't be measuring the true max. power by timing the
water to boiling. But if I wait for the stove to heat up a bit before starting,
the test would be a bit unrealistic - and how do I account for the lost fuel
burnt in the "warm up"?

hope someone can clear up my confusion!
Emma

--
Get your firstname@lastname email for FREE at http://Nameplanet.com/?su

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Tue Dec 4 07:35:59 2001
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Grass Sticks...
Message-ID: <3a.1ec852f5.293e1cdf@cs.com>

Joe Messina (of Boston) recently returned from Zambia and

Loved the beauty of the country...

Hated the poverty, smoke and long trips for cooking wood

Hated the burning off of the nearby grasslands

We discussed whether they couldn't cook with the local grass. We remembered that in

The Long Hard Winter by Laura Engels Wilder there is a long description of making "grass sticks" out of straw to burn during the blizzard when the firewood ran out. For uninsulated home heating it was a continual job and sounded beyond the capability of modern humans. However, for cooking it could be relatively simple - possibly a simple machine could be used for twisting the grass "sticks".

The sticks could then be burned in a 3 stone fire in the cigarette mode with 5-20% efficiency (probably would need to feed faster than wood). They could also be burned in the Aprovecho Rocket and Plancha stoves cigarette mode.

We then wondered if newspaper logs could also be made and burned in these stoves.

COMMENTS?

Tom Reed and Joe Messina BEF STOVEWORKS

Dr. Thomas B. Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
TomBReed@home.com
www.woodgas.com

From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Dec 4 08:45:14 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Grass Sticks...
Message-ID: <ce.1dd9f636.293e2d5b@aol.com>

Tom. R,
Speaking of newspaper logs. For years I crumpled newspaper into balls to
start woodfires in fireplaces. My newer method is to take a section of 10-20
pages and roll very loosely, then give a hard twist. The method is fast and
produces a good "large kindling log."
I wonder if a simple machine could do this to larger sections and make
full size logs. The beauty of the twist is that it produces more liner air
passages and a rougher edge than the rolled wire tie type I use to tie with
several bread ties. Give this method a shot the next time you fire up the
old woodstove or fireplace.
I like the way the paper burns more completely and longer without going
out.
I have heated my house with these when I ran out of cut or dry firewood and
didn't need much heat. Usually I'll just fire the stove up on these and when
hot switch to wood. Much less smoke this way.
I stoke three woodstove all winter, and therefore experiment 3x as much
as a person with one. All three stoves are completely different designs too.
This is good to compare designs and methods.
I wonder how the twisted newsprint logs would burn, side fed into a 3
stone fire? -Next experiment.
Dan Dimiduk

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 4 08:47:12 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Re. testing lorena stoves
In-Reply-To: <20011204121241.21765.qmail@www1.nameplanet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011204233111.00a2fb50@mail.optusnet.com.au>

Emma,

I am not aware of sending you an attachment.

At 12:12 4/12/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Thanks for the attachment Piet! but I have a couple of questions about these
>standard procedures:
>
>I want to do a boiling test with a high power and low power phase,
>
>What's the point in boiling water at high power for 30 mins as indicated in
>the "simple efficiency test"? how can you measure the power "used" in this
>boiling?

There is no practical point in boiling water at high power. Bringing water
(with or without raw food in it) to the boil at high power does make a lot
of sense because the faster it reaches boiling temperature, the less time
it has lost heat to the surroundings.
Since the temperature of boining water does not change whether it is boiled
at high or at low power, it makes sense to decrease the power to where it
just compensates the heat lost by the pan to the surroundings.

>Have I missed something? Isn't it better to bring the water to the
>boil as fast as possible and use only that period for the high power
>measurements?

It depends on what you wish to measure. Knowing the efficiency of bringing
water to the boil is usuful.

>Also: Should I put the pot on the stove and start the stopwatch as soon as
>the
>stove is lit? Surely the stove takes a little time to reach maximum power
>output. In that case I wouldn't be measuring the true max. power by timing
>the
>water to boiling. But if I wait for the stove to heat up a bit before
>starting,
>the test would be a bit unrealistic - and how do I account for the lost fuel
>burnt in the "warm up"?

If you make the test last a relatively long time, the fuel used in the
warming up will not make a significant error.

What was the atachment?

Regards,

Piet

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Tue Dec 4 09:24:07 2001
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Turndown of Biomass Stoves...
Message-ID: <39.1ec30891.293e3670@cs.com>

Your points are VERY well taken. I have made a few hundred "efficiency" tests on various natural and forced draft WoodGas stoves over the last decade and have wondered about most of your points.

In the very early days of stove testing, "efficiency" was the prime concern, and showing that any new stove was better than the "presumed" 5% efficiency of a 3 stone stove was a useful target.

Well, any stove test is as individual as, say Emma and Tom - hard to compare on a standard basis. Neither the 3 stone stove or most others have simple reliable turndown, and no definition of turndown, and further, I am sure all efficiencies would drop dramatically at high turndown, so .... most of us have been happy to demonstrate highest efficiency under best conditions and leave turndown up to the operator.

(Furthermore, in China I observed that there was no appreciation of the need of turndown. The "standard cook" merely held the skillet farther from the fire, often after the hot fat caught fire.)

With gas and electric stoves in the developed world we are able to turn down to close to zero, so demand it in for developing countries. But they will only come to the concept slowly, even if we provide it. Fortunately in the WoodGas forced draft stoves turndown is provided easily by either regulating blower speed or throttling the air.

So in your testing I would recommend that you continue to use the "efficiency at maximum output" as measured by both heat up rate and boiling rate in order to compare to all previous testing. If you can come up with any way to quantify other conditions, add that on too.

(Who and where is Emma with these good questions? I don't recall the name appearing before.)

Onward to better stove measurements...

Tom Reed BEF STOVEWORKS

In a message dated 12/4/01 5:12:48 AM Mountain Standard Time, emma@george.as writes:

Thanks for the attachment Piet! but I have a couple of questions about these
standard procedures:

I want to do a boiling test with a high power and low power phase,

hope someone can clear up my confusion!
Emma

Dr. Thomas B. Reed
The Biomass Energy Foundation
TomBReed@home.com
www.woodgas.com

From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Dec 4 10:44:11 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Charcoal/wood fired thermal electric generator
In-Reply-To: <FAB0B607D5E0D41195B700508BF3A332325B0E@14CCK4A059>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011204093542.01752540@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 05:44 PM 12/4/01 +0300, Stephen Gitonga wrote:

>We have an existing Thermal Electric Generator purchased from USA and
>modified to be ran on charcoal/wood to a run a radio of maximum of 5 Volts.
>I can avail the device in the internet but I would be grateful if Paul, you
>could explain by what you mean by ....appropriate for rural and urban poor
>or for the camper.
>Regards
>kithinji J.P.
>University of Nairobi

Paul says:

My main thought was about cost and maintenance for the poor, and weight for
the camper if with backpack, but no weight problem for those who drive to
their campsites.

Of course, the user needs to have something that needs the
electricity. Radios are the obvious need for the rural dwellers who spend
too much on batteries. I would define battery costs as the "competition"
to having TEG's.

(Note: I noticed that they are TEG and not TED.
But I knew a Ted once. Nice fellow. :-)) )

Paul

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Tue Dec 4 12:14:50 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Charcoal/wood fired thermal electric generator
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011204093542.01752540@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <OE23mCvoXM7e0C9guA8000096a0@hotmail.com>

This sounds like the specs of the Radiolantern http://www.radiolantern.com.
Here's a recent email describing the device. It appears, as far as stoves,
outer body mounting (not within the chimney or flue) would be required. I asked
Woody Kirkman, the knowledgeable US seller about selection, as there are 2
types, depending on whether the lamps are propane or kerosene. Note his
reference to the acronym "LPG" means "Liberty Power Generator", not liquified
petroleum gas (lpg). "Tubular" type lanterns refer to kerosene/lamp oil
lanterns, of which he has a wide variety. (in fact he is the veritable King of
kerosene lanterns). TEG is thermoelectric Generator, TED is thermoelectric
device, etc. :
________________

Dear Chris,

Thanks for the e-mail. The Liberty "LPG" will only fit "Tubular" type
lanterns. The Freedom "LPG" will only fit Coleman style mantle lanterns.
Because of the higher level of radiant heat produced by a mantle lantern,
the Freedom "LPG" produces slightly less electric current. To explain this,
allow me to draw this analogy: A hydro-electric plant uses the difference
of water presure from one side of the dam to the other to create energy. If
the water pressure was "equallized," then the tubines in the hydro-electric
plant would stop turning, and stop creating electricity. So it is with the
LPG, as the temperature is "equallized" on both sides of the thermal
battery, the output is reduced. If the temperature is the same on both
sides, no current will be produced. This difference in temperature is
reffered to as the "Delta T." The higher the Delta T, the more electric
current the LPG is able to produce. There is a limit however, as the unit
has a maximum operating temperature of about 300 degrees Farenheit. The
radiant heat at the top of a Coleman type lamp reduces the output because it
decreases the "Delta T." The Freedom "LPG" cannot be used with a Petromax
lantern because it has an extremely high radiant heat output. Other,
smaller, mantle lanterns may work, as the radiant heat level is less.

If you are looking for the most output, the standard LPG for tubular type
lanterns is your best bet. The nomimal output under load is 4.5 volts DC,
at 1/2 amp, (2.25 watts.)

I should also mention that LPGs cannot be coupled together to increase
output, as they will cancel each other out.

If you have any other questions, just drop me an e-mail.

Best Regards,
Woody Kirkman
www.lanternnet.com
________________

Woody means it when he says he will answer questions. He will also help on
larger TED and TEG projects. Outstanding!

- Chris Smith

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: "Stephen Gitonga" <GITONGA@itdg.or.ke>
Cc: <jkithinji@uonbi.ac.ke>; "Apolinário J Malawene" <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>;
"Bob and Karla Weldon" <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; "Ed Francis" <cfranc@ilstu.edu>;
"Tsamba--Alberto Julio" <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 7:41 AM
Subject: RE: Charcoal/wood fired thermal electric generator

> At 05:44 PM 12/4/01 +0300, Stephen Gitonga wrote:
>
> >We have an existing Thermal Electric Generator purchased from USA and
> >modified to be ran on charcoal/wood to a run a radio of maximum of 5 Volts.
> >I can avail the device in the internet but I would be grateful if Paul, you
> >could explain by what you mean by ....appropriate for rural and urban poor
> >or for the camper.
> >Regards
> >kithinji J.P.
> >University of Nairobi
>
> Paul says:
>
> My main thought was about cost and maintenance for the poor, and weight for
> the camper if with backpack, but no weight problem for those who drive to
> their campsites.
>
> Of course, the user needs to have something that needs the
> electricity. Radios are the obvious need for the rural dwellers who spend
> too much on batteries. I would define battery costs as the "competition"
> to having TEG's.
>
> (Note: I noticed that they are TEG and not TED.
> But I knew a Ted once. Nice fellow. :-)) )
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Dec 4 17:40:38 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Charcoal/wood fired thermal electric generator
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011204093542.01752540@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011204161736.01765850@mail.ilstu.edu>

Scott,

Thank you for your thoughtful message. I am posting it to the listserv,
along with my response.

Basically you ask, why build and use a TEG run by a gasifier stove when a
crank-unit can do the job? Questions of cost, I think. Your info on
crank units below has no prices (not even a the web site) so could you tell
us some basic prices for the crank radio, etc.

Also, a gasifier unit has no moving parts, runs on scrap biomass, and the
spare heat could be useful (maybe), depending on the situation.

If the gasifier can be locally made at very low cost, only the TEG is the
real financial cost.

Please note that all of the TEG talk is an offshoot of the real discussions
about stoves, and is not a primary issue.

But....... WHAT IF a small gasifier could drive a low-cost "something"
such as a TEG or a small steam engine that did other useful (non-heat) work
other than cook or heat a room? After all, much of our electricity in the
USA is from BURNING of fossil fuels.

As you wrote:
>Maybe ..... somebody wants
>to use this thing to drive a fan for the stove? Maybe that's it. A
>couple of watts would drive a pretty good little blower for a small
>stove.

Keep the discussion going. I will try to keep up with it while in Africa
from Wed to 22 Dec.

Paul

At 12:49 PM 12/4/01 -0600, Scott Willing wrote:
>Paul,
>
>What am I missing here?
>
>Can't help but think that if the only application for this device is
>running a little radio, wouldn't people be better off with the Freeplay
>radios in the first place? There have been a lot of crappy knock-offs,
>which use small dynamos and/or very small solar cells to charge an
>internal ni-cad battery pack (I ordered one, it was terrible, I sent it
>back) but the Freeplay radios proper use no batteries at all. You
>wind up a spring, you get a half-hour or so of radio without the need
>to set fire to anything. Some of them have solar panels - not to
>charge batteries for 14 hours while you wait (sheesh) but that are
>actually capable of powering the radio in realtime direct from the
>sun. Kinda nice if you happen to want to listen to a radio in broad
>daylight.
>
>Don't get me wrong - a couple of watts of usable electrical power
>from waste heat is a good trick, but it has to justify itself.
>
>Maybe if I dug carefully into the thread I'd find that somebody wants
>to use this thing to drive a fan for the stove? Maybe that's it. A
>couple of watts would drive a pretty good little blower for a small
>stove.
>
>http://www.freeplay.net/, by the way.
>
>Best,
>-smw

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Dec 4 18:40:05 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: "Kilns for Char" project, incl. funding
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011204172239.01762da0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers, and Friends (the message
is long, but I avoided sending an attachment.)

Below is some information on how we can fund some of our charitable
activities about stoves.

I hasten to point out that others on the Stoves List-Serve work for or
lead fully qualifying, recognized (by the IRS in the case of USA-based
agencies), charitable entities that are also worthy of support from
Stovers. A listing of these would be interesting to many of
us.

Note: For this discussion, “charity” is not the same as
“not-for-profit.” For example, I work of a public
university. It is not-for-profit, but it is certainly not run as a
charity.

If you would consider making tax-deductible CHARITIBLE donations to
appropriate stoves and bio-mass projects that are conducted outside of
the United States and the other developed countries, please read
on.

If not, I hope that you will not take offense that this message is being
posted via the Stoves List-Serve.

First comes the lengthy description of the "Kilns for Char"
project in India. If we are successful there, it might also have
application in Africa and elsewhere.

Second (at the end) is information about how donations could be made to
assist with this project or to assist the "Stoves DataBase"
project, also being done in India.

Because I am leaving at 3:00 PM Wednesday 5 December 2002 until 22
December to Africa, I will have great difficulty responding to e-mail
messages at a fairly crucial time concerning these projects. Please
assist each other with finding answers for whatever questions you may
have. And remember that Dr. AD Karve
<adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
is on the Stoves listserve.

Seasons greetings to all of you !!!!!

Paul

Char Briquettes from Sugarcane Leaves in India
Proposal (version 01-12-04) for a project to be conducted
by
Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (a not-for-profit organization)
in
Pune, Maharashtra State, India, under the directorship of
Dr.A.D.Karve

This project addresses the problem of providing clean-burning domestic
cooking fuel to the urban poor in India, while creating employment in the
rural sector and protecting the environment. The following
information has been provided by Dr. A.D.Karve, President, Appropriate
Rural Technology Institute (ARTI), a privately funded, not-for-profit
organization, operating in the state of Maharashtra in India.
Rotarian Paul S. Anderson, a member of the Stoves ListServe, is
responsible for a few editorial revisions (especially about the issues of
funding of the project) and agrees to assist with communications and
reporting about the project.

-0-0-0-0-0-

The rural people in India are generally self-sufficient in cooking fuel,
because woody crop residues in the form of stalks of cotton and
pigeonpea, or shanks of maize (corn cobs), can be burnt directly in wood
burning cookstoves. But the urban people have to purchase their
cooking fuel. Charcoal was the preferred fuel in urban India about
50 years ago, but in order to protect the trees and to prevent
deforestation, our government banned production of wood charcoal.
Kerosene was simultaneously made available at a very cheap rate.
But since the year 2000, the subsidy on kerosene was withdrawn, and
kerosene now costs Rupees 13 per litre (1 US$ = approximately Indian
Rupees 50). The urban poor are now using wood, priced at Rs. 2 per
kg. Wood is a dirty fuel, which turns the pots and the walls black
and the smoke too is hazardous to health. Wood-fires are less
easily controlled, less efficient, and encourage deforestation.

Under the
present project, it is planned to produce a briquette-form of fuel that
would be sold at about Rs. 5 per kg. It would be made from charred
light agro-waste. The char-briquettes are equivalent to charcoal in
calorific value and their burning characteristics (blue flame, without
smoke and soot). They can be burnt in the traditional charcoal burning,
metallic stoves, which cost about Rs.100 each. By using a steam
cooker and a charcoal-burning stove, a family of 5 can cook one meal
(rice, vegetables, beans/meat) by using just 100 to 200 grams of the char
briquettes. The same food would require about 3kg wood to cook on a
woodstove.

The raw
material to be used in this process is dry sugarcane leaves, called
trash. ugarcane is harvested in India from about the first week of
November to the end of April, spanning a period of about 25 weeks. The
cane is harvested manually, whereby the green tops and green leaves are
used as cattle fodder. The dry leaves that are removed at the time
of harvest lie in the field as a 20 to 25 cm thick layer. They are
springy, about 1 m long, and highly silicified and lignified. If left in
the field, the wheels of the tractors slip over them and they also clog
the tines of a harrow. They also interfere with irrigation by
blocking irrigation channels. Therefore the dry leaves are just burnt by
the farmers in the field itself. (The dry leaves, or trash, should
not be confused with bagasse, which is the fibrous matter that is left
after extracting sugar from the sugarcane. The bagasse is used as
fuel in the sugar factory. It is also used for making low quality
paper.)

Charcoal
is made from sugarcane leaves by using the so-called oven and retort
process. The oven is basically a kiln, constructed of bricks and mud at
the field site. The retorts consist of stainless steel drums, 24
inches high and 15 inches across. These drums are mass-produced for
storing drinking water and food grain, and they are therefore available
in any quantity for about Rs. 400 per piece. The kiln has two chambers,
one on top of another, separated from each other by a grate made of
horizontally oriented steel bars. The drums are filled with dry
leaves of sugarcane, and after closing their lids, they are kept upside
down on top of the grate in the upper chamber. The lids have a
small hole each. When a small quantity of trash is burnt below the
grate, the drums get heated and the trash undergoes a process called
pyrolysis. Pyrolysis is chemical decomposition of biomass, when it
is heated, under exclusion of oxygen, to a temperature of about 250
degrees Celsius. In the course of pyrolysis, about 70% of the
material is converted into a combustible gas, called producer gas, and
about 30% of the material remains behind in the retorts in the form of
charcoal. The producer gas comes out of the holes in the lids of
the retorts and burns there to add to the heat. Taking into account the
trash that is burnt below the grate to start the process, we get about
20% charcoal from the original trash. Because the starting
material is leafy, the charcoal is also in the form of flakes, which can
be easily powdered, just by spreading them on the ground and rolling a
heavy cement pipe over them. The powdered charcoal is then mixed
with a binder like cattle dung or starch paste and either rolled manually
into fuel balls or extruded with the help of an extruder into cylindrical
briquettes. They are dried under natural sunlight. Because sunlight
is needed for the process of drying, the charcoal making can
theoretically be conducted continuously for a period of about 8 months in
a year.

The
hardware required for the process consists of 18 drums (while 9 are being
heated in the kiln, 9 are emptied of charcoal, filled with fresh trash
and kept ready for the next batch), costing about Rs. 7200. About
Rs. 3000 would be the cost of the bricks and the chimney. The
operator erects the kiln himself, using local mud at the site of
operation. He would thus require a capital of about Rs.10,000 or US$200
to start the business. A family can easily produce about 100 kg of
charcoal daily by using this process. A family can work for 25
weeks using sugarcane trash, and a further 8 weeks using other agro-waste
like wheat straw, etc. Assuming that the operator works for 6 days
in a week, a kiln would be able to produce about 20 tonnes of char in a
year. (Metric tones are 2200 pounds or one English long-ton.)

We at ARTI have made arrangements with a local co-operative to purchase
the powdered char from the operators at a price of Rs. 3 per kg.
This would earn a gross income of approximately Rs. 60,000 in a year if
the family sold the powdered char, and Rs.100,000 (US$2000.00) if they
sold it in the form of briquettes. This can be considered to be very good
income for a rural family, being comparable to the annual income of an
urban factory worker. We have also discovered that the char powder
is useful as a substitute for peat in the nursery business.
Therefore we feel that the char would always find customers.

Maharashtra has about 450,000 hectares under sugarcane cultivation.
At the rate of 10 tonnes per hectare, this area generates annually 4.5
million tonnes of leaf trash, which has the potential of producing
900,000 tonnes of char briquettes. At a rate of Rs. 5000 per tonne,
this business has the potential to generate annually Rs. 4.5 billion (or
about US$ 100 million) from the sugarcane leaf trash, not counting the
production from other agro-waste like wheat straw. This would
require 60,000 kilns, representing employment for 60,000 operators and
their families or employees. Adding those amounts of income and
employment into the rural economy would literally change the lives of
many tens of thousands of people.

We are
frequently asked why we want to promote a small, family-size operation,
when similar systems were available for a daily output of 50 to 100
tonnes of char and above. The answer is that agro-waste is
scattered all over the countryside. With a central large facility,
one would have to employ labour and a fleet of trucks to collect the raw
material and to transport it. It is our experience that the cost of
just the collection and transport comes to almost 1 Rupee per kg of
trash. Considering the fact that the trash yields only 20% char,
the cost of collection and transport of the raw material itself would
come to Rs. 5 per kg of char. Thus, with a large central facility,
the process becomes uneconomical.

In our system, the kiln is erected in the sugarcane field itself. The
operator pays Rs. 500 per hectare for a tractor-drawn harrow to collect
all the trash in the field to one side near the kiln. In this way,
the farmer has his field free of trash to conduct the cultivation
operations for the next crop. When only the family members operate
the charring kiln, the overheads are very low because no salaries are to
be paid to anybody. After exhausting the trash from one field, the kiln
is shifted to the next farmstead. The only expenditure that the family
would have to incur, apart from their labor, is on a large barrel to
store the char, and few hand tools like a shovel, trowel etc, together
costing about Rs. 700. The sale value of the char (or briquettes) is thus
practically the net income.

Currently we are faced with two interrelated issues: Prove that
these figures remain valid as quantities increase; and find ways that the
quantities can be increased.

We have so
far trained 15 unemployed rural youth in a place called Phaltan, where we
have our own field station. With assistance from donors, we plan to
provide them the kilns based on a micro-credit loan. The operators
would produce the char and sell it to the co-operative that has agreed to
purchase the char powder at the rate of Rs. 3 per kg. The operators would
actually receive only Rs. 2 per kg, and Rs. 1 would be kept back towards
repayment of the loan. After they have delivered ten tonnes of char
(approximately half-way through the harvest season), they would have
repaid the price of the kiln and the drums. A new set of the kiln
and drums would then be provided (as a start-up loan) to the next person
in the queue who might also be able to pay back the loan within the
second half of the season. Assuming the initial owners would budget
for repairs and replacement expenses and remain in business, there would
be the addition of 2 operators each year for every micro-credit loan of
$200 that remains available.

For the micro-credit loan system to start, initial donors are
needed. The sum of US$2000 would allow ARTI to provide 10 operators
with a kiln and retort system each. By recycling this money, we can
provide employment to one hundred families in the course of the next 5
years, without loosing the re-circulating funds for the loans.
Initial funds of $20,000 would benefit 1000 families in 5 years, and
$200,000 in loans to 1000 operators would benefit 10,000 families in 5
years. When we consider that the value of US$100 million of
potential income is literally burned in the fields in this one state, the
availability of $2 million in loans (perhaps in 2003 or 2004) would seem
to be a good investment. That amount would establish 10,000
operators at the start of one year and have the full coverage of 60,000
operators by the middle of the third year. And the full amount of
capital would still be available because the loans are to be repaid so
quickly.

We are not yet seeking the big money because we want to prove the process
and economics “in the field”. We want to check for any significant,
unexpected problems. And we want to be sure that the prices of
retorts and products are correct even when larger quantities are
involved.

But for lack of even $2000 we are delayed in starting the process for 10
operators. Financial assistance from organizations like Rotary and
from individuals like specialists in stoves and charcoal will be
extremely crucial financial support at this time. It is clear that
the potential for this “Kilns for Char” project is enormous. Steps
in the right direction are needed now.

-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-

** Below is information about how individuals and
organizations
can participate in this project **

I, Paul Anderson, am active on the Stoves List-Serve and I am interested
in organizing a way for voluntary tax-deductible donations for charitable
stoves-related projects to be collected and distributed. I am an
active Rotarian, and my Rotary District 6490 has a legally recognized
charitable foundation that can receive donations, issue receipts, and
disperse the funds specifically for the intended causes. There are
NO overhead charges; 100% of donations will go to the approved stoves
projects.

The current (7/01-6/02) District 6490 Governor is Sandra Broadrick-Allen,
who wrote to me about receiving tax-deductible donations that could be
used for appropriate projects if conditions are met. I have made
minor editings for clarification:

“Paul, let me attempt to answer your questions. The Rotary District
6490 Charity Foundation is always ready to take contributions. The
current Treasurer is Past District Governor (PDG) Dan Thornburgh.
Next year (as of 7/02), I will be the Treasurer, and a year later, George
Wolf. Simply send checks made out to Rotary District 6490 Charity
Foundation to Dan. He will issue a receipt.
[ Address for mailing: Dr. Daniel Thornburgh, 1405 Buchanan Street,
Charleston, IL 61821]
[ E-mail addresses: Dan T
<adthor@advant.com>,
"Sandra Broadrick-Allen" <sandyba@net66.com>, George Wolf
wolfland@gridley.org, and Paul
Anderson psanders@ilstu.edu ]

“The donor can designate where the funds will go provided that they meet
the specifications and rulings that are applied to all 501 (c) 3
organizations. This means that you cannot specify something that is
not a charity or something by which you will profit personally.
Other than that restriction, funds have been donated and designated for
several specific projects and for some undesignated funds that may be
used for Rotary related projects.

“The Trustees of the Foundation (immediate past PDG, DG, and DGE) always
have the right and responsibility to determine how the money is
spent. For this, they use the guidelines that apply to 501 (c)
3's. [Accounting reports for expenditures are required.]

“As far as time limits, what must be used is guidelines from the U.S. tax
code, i.e., a tax deduction means that the money is going to help some
charity to carry out its work. Not that they money is sitting and
accumulating year after year. Most specified funds are
"in-and-out" in at the most three
years.”
--- End of quotation ---

There are two (2) specific charitable efforts that I am currently
coordinating that relate to Stoves interests, both of which have been
discussed openly on the Stoves List Serve:

A. “Stoves Data-Base Project in India”: Development of the
Stoves data-base, being conducted by two Ph.D. students These students
are being paid US$1.00 per hour for their work. The sum of up to
$500.00 has been pledged. Of that, $300.00 have been received
already by my Rotary Club that will watch over this project. I am
the chairperson of the committee for this project.

B. “Kilns for Char Production from Cane Leaves in India”:
This project is under the direction of Dr. A.D. Karve, a Stoves list
member serving as an unpaid volunteer for this project in Pune,
India. The first units (of up to 10 kilns, with 18 barrels for each
kiln) are being prepared for use by unemployed rural youth to make “char”
from the dry, discarded, free leaves of sugarcane plants. The char
is later made into briquettes that are sold for domestic consumption or
for industrial use. The sum of US$2000.00 is the initial target,
being approximately $200 per kiln plus equipment. The Rotary Club
of Champaign West (Illinois) is highly likely to want to undertake
aspects of this project for their “World Community Service”
activity. A lengthy (7 page) description of the background,
process, and expected results is almost completed and will be posted to
the Stoves Listserve.

Any support (financial or otherwise) for these 2 projects will be greatly
appreciated. Please be sure to indicate “Stoves Data-Base” or
“Kilns for Char” or “Any Stoves Projects”. I will organize the
processing in accordance with the funding.

With GREAT thanks !!!!!!!!!!!

Sincerely,

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State
University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice:
309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Wed Dec 5 13:49:52 2001
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Wind-up/Solar radios (was RE: Charcoal/wood fired thermal electric generator)
In-Reply-To: <3C0D22C4.18498.6ECA65@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C0E17FC.18783.56DF30@localhost>

Paul,

I'll bring this back to the list.

If you're looking for prices, there are links on the Freeplay site
(again: http://www.freeplay.com) to various worldwide retailers. I
tried one at random and found but one of the many products at this
particular on-line source (you'll probably have to glue this link back
together):

http://shopping.discovery.com/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalog
Id=10000&storeId=10000&productId=11173&langId=-1

This happens to be the small AM/FM wind/solar at US$70.

If I wanted a radio, I'd much rather have this and know that I could
run it anywhere, anytime with no batteries (45 minutes from a 30-
second wind-up, or direct off the sun), than buy a TEG for, what,
US$60? That leaves me $10 left for a radio (yoiks!) and I still need a
lantern to power the thing? Doesn't make sense.

Also you should check out http://www.freeplayfoundation.org. These
folks have actually organized things like a "guns for radios" trade-in
program in Nigeria, giving away over 12,000 radios. Sounds to me
like it might be right up your alley.

Again, the TEG is a great idea which I could see having some value
in certain applications, but as a means of powering a radio...? This
electronics technologist votes for the simplest, cleanest, most self-
contained solution.

----- Caveat ---------

I have not personally evaluated the Freeplay radios. I do not know
how they sound or how good their reception properties are. But I did
once buy what I thought was a similar product, only to realize that

- it didn't use a spring mechanism/dynamo like the Freeplay, but
rather a hand-cranked dynamo that charges internal ni-cad batteries
(which won't last forever and are toxic),

- nor was its solar panel sufficient to run the radio (again, it was only
good for charging the batteries - you couldn't even listen while doing
this), and,

- its ability to tune FM stations within a large city was utterly
pathetic. I can imagine that it would be nearly useless in the field.

My point is that any choice of radio, independent of the power
issue, should be subject to careful testing to make sure that it is
actually going to be useful in the intended application. My
impression is that the Freeplay's are pretty good in this regard - and
they do see wide use in places like Africa - but I can't endorse their
performance, having had no experience.

----- End caveat -----

Cheers,
-smw

Date sent: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 23:07:56 -0600
To: willing@mb.sympatico.ca
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
Subject: RE: Charcoal/wood fired thermal electric generator

> Hi,
>
> Yes I received this message.
>
> And I did see the URL and went there, but found no prices.
>
> Must run,
>
> Paul
>
> At 07:23 PM 12/4/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >Paul,
> >
> >I'm having a bit of trouble posting to the list at the moment. I don't
> >know if this will go through either.
> >
> >Actually, there *was* a URL in my original post. I fooled you by
> >tossing it in at the end:
> >
> > > >http://www.freeplay.net/, by the way.
> >
> >I'll see if this goes through...
> >
> >-s
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Date sent: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 16:45:47 -0600
> >To: willing@mb.sympatico.ca,
> > Apolinário J
> > Malawene <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>,
> > Bob and Karla Weldon <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>, Ed Francis
> > <cfranc@ilstu.edu>,
> > Tsamba--Alberto Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>, stoves@crest.org
> >From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> >Subject: RE: Charcoal/wood fired thermal electric generator
> >
> > > Scott,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your thoughtful message. I am posting it to the listserv,
> > > along with my response.
> > >
> > > Basically you ask, why build and use a TEG run by a gasifier stove when a
> > > crank-unit can do the job? Questions of cost, I think. Your info on
> > > crank units below has no prices (not even a the web site) so could you
> > tell
> > > us some basic prices for the crank radio, etc.
> > >
> > > Also, a gasifier unit has no moving parts, runs on scrap biomass, and the
> > > spare heat could be useful (maybe), depending on the situation.
> > >
> > > If the gasifier can be locally made at very low cost, only the TEG is the
> > > real financial cost.
> > >
> > > Please note that all of the TEG talk is an offshoot of the real
> > discussions
> > > about stoves, and is not a primary issue.
> > >
> > > But....... WHAT IF a small gasifier could drive a low-cost "something"
> > > such as a TEG or a small steam engine that did other useful (non-heat)
> > work
> > > other than cook or heat a room? After all, much of our electricity in the
> > > USA is from BURNING of fossil fuels.
> > >
> > > As you wrote:
> > > >Maybe ..... somebody wants
> > > >to use this thing to drive a fan for the stove? Maybe that's it. A
> > > >couple of watts would drive a pretty good little blower for a small
> > > >stove.
> > >
> > > Keep the discussion going. I will try to keep up with it while in Africa
> > > from Wed to 22 Dec.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > At 12:49 PM 12/4/01 -0600, Scott Willing wrote:
> > > >Paul,
> > > >
> > > >What am I missing here?
> > > >
> > > >Can't help but think that if the only application for this device is
> > > >running a little radio, wouldn't people be better off with the Freeplay
> > > >radios in the first place? There have been a lot of crappy knock-offs,
> > > >which use small dynamos and/or very small solar cells to charge an
> > > >internal ni-cad battery pack (I ordered one, it was terrible, I sent it
> > > >back) but the Freeplay radios proper use no batteries at all. You
> > > >wind up a spring, you get a half-hour or so of radio without the need
> > > >to set fire to anything. Some of them have solar panels - not to
> > > >charge batteries for 14 hours while you wait (sheesh) but that are
> > > >actually capable of powering the radio in realtime direct from the
> > > >sun. Kinda nice if you happen to want to listen to a radio in broad
> > > >daylight.
> > > >
> > > >Don't get me wrong - a couple of watts of usable electrical power
> > > >from waste heat is a good trick, but it has to justify itself.
> > > >
> > > >Maybe if I dug carefully into the thread I'd find that somebody wants
> > > >to use this thing to drive a fan for the stove? Maybe that's it. A
> > > >couple of watts would drive a pretty good little blower for a small
> > > >stove.
> > > >
> > > >http://www.freeplay.net/, by the way.
> > > >
> > > >Best,
> > > >-smw
> > >
> > > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> > >
> > > Stoves List Moderators:
> > > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> > > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> > >
> > > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > >
> > > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > > -
> > > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> > >
> > > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> > >
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Wed Dec 5 13:56:29 2001
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Wind-up/Solar radios (was RE: Charcoal/wood fired thermal electric generator)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011204230654.0177b2b0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3C0E198B.7122.5CF633@localhost>

> program in Nigeria, giving away over 12,000 radios. Sounds to me

Sorry, that should have been "Niger".

-smw

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Dec 5 16:48:43 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Briquetes without holes
Message-ID: <002b01c17d71$ab653e40$45e80fc4@home>

Dear Stovers

I have been unusually and abnormally quiet these days because of not being
home and also taking care of business. I have something that is worth
pasing along now.

I have just returned from Bloemfontein yesterday where i saw the production
site and some of the waste materials collection work and met talking heads
in Environment and so on. Our effort seems to be getting a firm go-ahead.

I have been burning our 20% paper briquettes in the Basintuthu stove that
has pre-heated primary air and have run up against the problem of excessive
heat output when I don't want it.

I think it is a thermal mass problem. Basically the heat retained in the
firebox/grate is enough to keep the charcoaling process going well after I
have turned down the single air supply. As a result, in the absence of
adequate secondary air relative to the gasses generated, the unburned gasses
are getting out of the stove before lighting up. The combustion is at least
partially uincomplete - frequently on the leeward side of the pot. The
combustion oing on 'down below' is sufficient to keep the heat pouring out
and the fire goes from a really clean one to a charcoaling process (with
excessive gas production anyway) and incomlete burning.

One solution that I am looking at is making the briquettes without any
central hole. This will reduce the surface area of the briquette and reduce
the production of gasses.

It is obvious that if I put in the briquettes more frequently and only one
at a time, I can control output that way. It works and is easy and as the
cubes are only about 1.1 MJ each, I can control the overall output.

We were putting the hole in for 2 reasons, which may not be very valid ones:
First to assist drying, and second, to increase the burning surface to
increase the burn rate. I haven't seen any biomass briquettes without
holes. Are there and comments on this?

I am having my doubts about introducing a stove to burn the briquettes that
has two air control plates, one for primary and another for secondary. It
is more expensive, more difficult to make and control, and the benefits
minimal. I agree that the fire can be made to work more efficiently over a
wider range of heat outputs if they are separately controllable, but the
time and energy it will take to teach hundreds of people how to do that is
daunting for mass implementation. Perhaps it can be introduced after a year
or so and people are experienced with a wood fire (single air control) that
can be controlled at all. Price is a very important factor here.

Back to the temps: Having pre-heated primary air is great in that
combustion is better and in fact the power rating of the stove goes up as
the wood really does get burned at a perceptibly higher rate. When the
stove has burned for about 10-15 minutes at a high power (2.5 kw?) there is
a real problem getting the thing to calm down for a simmer stage. The
primary air is running really hot and closing down the primary air supply
only heats it up far more because of the slower flow over the heating
surfaces. in certain cases there is an increase in the burning rate! It
seems that way.

There is a considerable increase in the 'charcoaling' effect when using
preheated primary air and briquettes. They turn into a glowing shell of
their former selves which we knock down when throwing in the next one(s).
The 'establishing a clean burn' time for the newly added briquette(s) is
about 5 seconds.

Soon I hope to have a second hand 3kg electronic scale with 1/2 gram
divisions. This will give me firm data on these observations.

In Bloemfontein I was able again to confirm again that the full throttle
consumption of briquettes (45-50 gm) is 1 per 6 minutes in the long term,
with a 3-briquette-fuel-only 3-litre boiling time of about 9 minutes in a
blackened aluminum 4-litre pot. That is 3 new cubes placed onto a small
remnant hot fire in a hot grate/firebox. The pot is shielded.

I received some 4" briquettes (paper and sawdust with some charcoal in a
few) from Moçambique (from Apolinario). I have not yet burned any of them
but they do fit into a standard Basintuthu stove. The hole looks really
small (16mm?).

Regards to all
Crispin gearing up

PS The coal in Bloemfontein comes from Witbank. How much should it cost?
How many MJ/Kg? 32?

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From emma at george.as Thu Dec 6 04:54:24 2001
From: emma at george.as (emma@george.as)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Turndown of Biomass Stoves...
Message-ID: <20011206095419.16638.qmail@www1.nameplanet.com>

I think you're giving me too much credit Tom! Piet Visser sent me a nice
staightforward step-by-step procedure for 4 stove tests, 2 of which include a
"simmering" period. Apparrently these are in accordance with the VITA
international standards.

I guess it doesn't mean much to the average cook (or NGO worker!) if you give
them two efficiency / savings figures, one for high and one for low power.

I'm a complete "stoves novice" but a Ugandan NGO wants me to find a nice
convenient figure for their lorena stoves. If anyone knows of actual
effciency results for two-hole lorena woodstoves (made of earth - size depending
on pot), then maybe I'll have to talk myself out of a job! The same for the
little "Unicef" stoves.

Why hasn't the "standard" cook discovered these simple ways to save fuel over
the past 10,000 years or so? (but then, I still can't convince my boyfriend that
there's no point in boiling eggs so hard - such is human nature!)

Emma

On Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:23:44 EST Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:
>Dear Emma:
>
>Your points are VERY well taken. I have made a few hundred "efficiency"
>tests on various natural and forced draft WoodGas stoves over the last decade
>and have wondered about most of your points.
>
>In the very early days of stove testing, "efficiency" was the prime concern,
>and showing that any new stove was better than the "presumed" 5% efficiency
>of a 3 stone stove was a useful target.
>
>Well, any stove test is as individual as, say Emma and Tom - hard to compare
>on a standard basis. Neither the 3 stone stove or most others have simple
>reliable turndown, and no definition of turndown, and further, I am sure all
>efficiencies would drop dramatically at high turndown, so .... most of us
>have been happy to demonstrate highest efficiency under best conditions and
>leave turndown up to the operator.
>
>(Furthermore, in China I observed that there was no appreciation of the need
>of turndown. The "standard cook" merely held the skillet farther from the
>fire, often after the hot fat caught fire.)
>
>With gas and electric stoves in the developed world we are able to turn down
>to close to zero, so demand it in for developing countries. But they will
>only come to the concept slowly, even if we provide it. Fortunately in the
>WoodGas forced draft stoves turndown is provided easily by either regulating
>blower speed or throttling the air.
>
>So in your testing I would recommend that you continue to use the "efficiency
>at maximum output" as measured by both heat up rate and boiling rate in order
>to compare to all previous testing. If you can come up with any way to
>quantify other conditions, add that on too.
>
>(Who and where is Emma with these good questions? I don't recall the name
>appearing before.)
>
>Onward to better stove measurements...
>
>Tom Reed BEF STOVEWORKS
>
>
>In a message dated 12/4/01 5:12:48 AM Mountain Standard Time, emma@george.as
>writes:
>>
>> Thanks for the attachment Piet! but I have a couple of questions about
>> these
>> standard procedures:
>>
>> I want to do a boiling test with a high power and low power phase,
>>
>> What's the point in boiling water at high power for 30 mins as indicated in
>> the "simple efficiency test"? how can you measure the power "used" in this
>> boiling? Have I missed something? Isn't it better to bring the water to the
>> boil as fast as possible and use only that period for the high power
>> measurements?
>>
>> Also: Should I put the pot on the stove and start the stopwatch as soon as
>> the
>> stove is lit? Surely the stove takes a little time to reach maximum power
>> output. In that case I wouldn't be measuring the true max. power by timing
>> the
>> water to boiling. But if I wait for the stove to heat up a bit before
>> starting,
>> the test would be a bit unrealistic - and how do I account for the lost
>> fuel
>> burnt in the "warm up"?
>>
>> hope someone can clear up my confusion!
>> Emma
>>
>
>
>Dr. Thomas B. Reed
>The Biomass Energy Foundation
>TomBReed@home.com
>www.woodgas.com
>

--
Get your firstname@lastname email at http://Nameplanet.com/?su

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Dec 6 09:41:35 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Turndown of Biomass Stoves...
In-Reply-To: <20011206095419.16638.qmail@www1.nameplanet.com>
Message-ID: <3C0F837F.41E03345@cybershamanix.com>

emma@george.as wrote:

> Why hasn't the "standard" cook discovered these simple ways to save fuel over
> the past 10,000 years or so?

Probably because until fairly recently, there was ample firewood.
Although I wonder what sort of stoves desert nomads developed.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From legacyfound at hotmail.com Thu Dec 6 21:16:39 2001
From: legacyfound at hotmail.com (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Briquetes without holes
Message-ID: <F82gIDksUmUR3dIxyZG00010a91@hotmail.com>

Crispin,
I have not seen Pauls introduced versions of our briquettes in his trip to
Mocambique bt a 16 mm hole is really small indeed. we have used about 25 to
35 mm as the optimumlower and upper range we have used. Paul has also
expressed concern about being able to control the burn. Others have
suggested lowering the chamber to keep the pot in an optimm distance form
the briquette. I have also been thinking about a thru put configuration with
a air blocked sloping feed tube and a side door which would automatically
exit the burned briquette. Due to its lowered density in its burned state ,
the incomign briquette would push the burned briquette out the side door .
Lots of cost /production issues and problems controlling air with that
design.

Back on the drawing board, using the KISS principle, another approach is to
design secondary air access around the consistency of the briquette height
before ad after its burn to charcoal stage. With a consistent size
produciton the burn back could allow the exposure of a set of secondary air
holes in the combusiton chamber. These would have been covered by the
briquette during the initial burn. No moving parts ...

How tall are the mozambique briquettes anyway ? With about two month's
experience, the entrepreneurs we train generally achieve a tolerance of
7.5 cm height + or - .5 cm .
Richard Stanley
invisible one

<crispin@newdawn.sz>
>Reply-To: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
>To: "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>
>Subject: Briquetes without holes
>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:43:54 +0200
>
>Dear Stovers
>
>I have been unusually and abnormally quiet these days because of not being
>home and also taking care of business. I have something that is worth
>pasing along now.
>
>I have just returned from Bloemfontein yesterday where i saw the production
>site and some of the waste materials collection work and met talking heads
>in Environment and so on. Our effort seems to be getting a firm go-ahead.
>
>I have been burning our 20% paper briquettes in the Basintuthu stove that
>has pre-heated primary air and have run up against the problem of excessive
>heat output when I don't want it.
>
>I think it is a thermal mass problem. Basically the heat retained in the
>firebox/grate is enough to keep the charcoaling process going well after I
>have turned down the single air supply. As a result, in the absence of
>adequate secondary air relative to the gasses generated, the unburned
>gasses
>are getting out of the stove before lighting up. The combustion is at
>least
>partially uincomplete - frequently on the leeward side of the pot. The
>combustion oing on 'down below' is sufficient to keep the heat pouring out
>and the fire goes from a really clean one to a charcoaling process (with
>excessive gas production anyway) and incomlete burning.
>
>One solution that I am looking at is making the briquettes without any
>central hole. This will reduce the surface area of the briquette and
>reduce
>the production of gasses.
>
>It is obvious that if I put in the briquettes more frequently and only one
>at a time, I can control output that way. It works and is easy and as the
>cubes are only about 1.1 MJ each, I can control the overall output.
>
>We were putting the hole in for 2 reasons, which may not be very valid
>ones:
>First to assist drying, and second, to increase the burning surface to
>increase the burn rate. I haven't seen any biomass briquettes without
>holes. Are there and comments on this?
>
>I am having my doubts about introducing a stove to burn the briquettes that
>has two air control plates, one for primary and another for secondary. It
>is more expensive, more difficult to make and control, and the benefits
>minimal. I agree that the fire can be made to work more efficiently over a
>wider range of heat outputs if they are separately controllable, but the
>time and energy it will take to teach hundreds of people how to do that is
>daunting for mass implementation. Perhaps it can be introduced after a
>year
>or so and people are experienced with a wood fire (single air control) that
>can be controlled at all. Price is a very important factor here.
>
>Back to the temps: Having pre-heated primary air is great in that
>combustion is better and in fact the power rating of the stove goes up as
>the wood really does get burned at a perceptibly higher rate. When the
>stove has burned for about 10-15 minutes at a high power (2.5 kw?) there is
>a real problem getting the thing to calm down for a simmer stage. The
>primary air is running really hot and closing down the primary air supply
>only heats it up far more because of the slower flow over the heating
>surfaces. in certain cases there is an increase in the burning rate! It
>seems that way.
>
>There is a considerable increase in the 'charcoaling' effect when using
>preheated primary air and briquettes. They turn into a glowing shell of
>their former selves which we knock down when throwing in the next one(s).
>The 'establishing a clean burn' time for the newly added briquette(s) is
>about 5 seconds.
>
>Soon I hope to have a second hand 3kg electronic scale with 1/2 gram
>divisions. This will give me firm data on these observations.
>
>In Bloemfontein I was able again to confirm again that the full throttle
>consumption of briquettes (45-50 gm) is 1 per 6 minutes in the long term,
>with a 3-briquette-fuel-only 3-litre boiling time of about 9 minutes in a
>blackened aluminum 4-litre pot. That is 3 new cubes placed onto a small
>remnant hot fire in a hot grate/firebox. The pot is shielded.
>
>I received some 4" briquettes (paper and sawdust with some charcoal in a
>few) from Moçambique (from Apolinario). I have not yet burned any of them
>but they do fit into a standard Basintuthu stove. The hole looks really
>small (16mm?).
>
>Regards to all
>Crispin gearing up
>
>PS The coal in Bloemfontein comes from Witbank. How much should it cost?
>How many MJ/Kg? 32?
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
>Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.bioenergy2002.org
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Dec 7 00:23:24 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Briquetes without holes - Stanley
In-Reply-To: <F82gIDksUmUR3dIxyZG00010a91@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c17e7a$50c3be80$69e80fc4@home>

Dear Invisible One

I have just been describing at length to my son in China the problem I have
with fire control with the stove. Turning down a very good fire simply
turns it into a charcoaling stove which is not the intention. The problem
is at least partly due to retained heat and making it thin and lowering the
mass of the grate certain will help however fuel starvation is a better
solution that air starvation.

>I have not seen Pauls introduced versions of our briquettes

They are 4 inch diameter and about 5 inches high. A couple are short.

>Others have suggested lowering the chamber to keep the
>pot in an optimum distance from the briquette.

This thing is complicated. I am firmly of the view that I do not want to
create a charcoaling-making stove. The reasons are that I can't use it and
if I leave it in, it burns at three different heats: the initial free burn,
the charcoal-producing stage and the charcoal burning stage. That is VERY
inconvenient when you are trying to cook or simmer.

In answer to an earlier comment, I also cannot have a top lighting, top
loading stove. That cannot in practice be reloaded, rendering top firing an
interesting lab experiment but not yet a practical stove. We need to have a
bottom burning top loading stove because that is practical to build and use
in the $25 range.

>Due to its lowered density in its burned state, the incoming
>briquette would push the burned briquette out the side door .

I intend to have nothing to push out. It should be completely burned in the
grate leaving a small spoonful of white ash. he charcoaling process creates
all sorts of air blockages and incompletely burned pieces that catch the ash
from well burned fuel. This eventually blocks the air coming into the fire
from below making a clean burn difficult.

>Back on the drawing board, using the KISS principle

I agree completely. Elegance is a worthy attribute. Simple and effective
is better.

>With a consistent size produciton the burn back could
>allow the exposure of a set of secondary air
>holes in the combusiton chamber. These would have
>been covered by the briquette during the initial burn.

This idea has potential however, it does not allow for heating up the grate
to heat the secondary air which I feel is extremely important. Cold
secondary air kills the secondary flame. If the briquette or the fuel
prevents the primary fire heat reaching the grate, the secondary air will be
way below optimal temperature and the gasses left over from the primary burn
will be chilled and give off visible smoke.

It is for this reason that I have serious doubts about the potential for any
stove that uses a tight fitting briquette and whch requires re-fueling
during the 'cook'. All sorts of thing can be done if fuel does not have to
be added at any time. Using inconsistent wood or consistent briquettes will
not change this. Top burning gassifying stoves are OK if you do not have to
add fuel. Faced with a 3 hour cooking time for some meals there is no
chance of doing that in a single fuel charge.

If I refuel from below, where will the ash go? Upwards? If I refuel from
the side, how will I control the air supply? In fact refuelling from the
side creates a lot of problems. It is hard to get anything like the
efficiency of burning that is available with a Tsotso layout and getting
preheated primary air like the Basintuthu is really difficult with a side
loader.

I am going to make some square briquettes with no central hole this week to
see if the fire becomes a little more controllable through the reduction of
the surface/volume ratio.

By the way, all the briquettes from Moç are sawdust-paper which was a
surprise. Most of htem have at least some charcoal content. I thought they
were making a biomass product like I have seen on TV from Kenya.

The Moç briquettes do fit into the Basintuthu stove though I haven't burned
any yet. The shape (cylindrical) can be produced on our upcoming machine
for Bloemfontein if the market swings that way. It will have an output of
about 1/4 of a ton per day.

Regards to all
Crispin

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From dstill at epud.net Fri Dec 7 13:04:15 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Metering the fuel makes turndown natural...
Message-ID: <002201c17f6d$82f8f0c0$2015210c@default>

Tom Reed writes:

"With gas and electric stoves in the developed world we are able to
turn down to close to zero, so demand it in for developing countries. But
they will only come to the concept slowly, even if we provide it.
Fortunately in the WoodGas forced draft stoves turndown is provided easily by
either regulating blower speed or throttling the air."

If by turndown we're talking about delivering
less heat to the pot when desired; then, in my experience, aren't most direct
burning stoves and the three stone fire well able to quickly respond by pushing
fewer sticks into the fire? It's one of the conveniences of manually metering
fuel that pushing five sticks in the combustion chamber makes the pot boil fast
but then only feeding two or three sticks creates the right heat for
simmering...That's one of the advantages of an insulated combustion chamber over
an open fire, that even smaller fires are sustained resulting in greater fuel
efficiency. The car goes slower when less fuel is delivered...One of the few
problems with batch fired high mass heating stoves is that if the day warms
unexpectedly after the big hot burn there is no possibility of turndown.Stoves
that meter fuel can respond to demand.. .

Best,

Dean
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">

From legacyfound at hotmail.com Fri Dec 7 22:42:00 2001
From: legacyfound at hotmail.com (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:27 2004
Subject: Briquetes without holes - Stanley
Message-ID: <F2297Z8Mm0yP5UaFVs400024002@hotmail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20011207/bc30bab5/attachment.html
From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sat Dec 8 08:03:42 2001
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Metering the fuel makes turndown natural...
Message-ID: <79.1f72dd56.29436985@cs.com>

The ability to manually meter the fuel is one of the main attractions of the Rocket stove...... You meter the sticks, I meter the gas production rate in the WoodGas stoves.

Yours for better stoves...... TOM REED

Tom Reed writes:

"With gas and electric stoves in the developed world we are able to turn down to close to zero, so demand it in for developing countries. But they will only come to the concept slowly, even if we provide it. Fortunately in the WoodGas forced draft stoves turndown is provided easily by either regulating blower speed or throttling the air."

If by turndown we're talking about delivering less heat to the pot when desired; then, in my experience, aren't most direct burning stoves and the three stone fire well able to quickly respond by pushing fewer sticks into the fire? It's one of the conveniences of manually metering fuel that pushing five sticks in the combustion chamber makes the pot boil fast but then only feeding two or three sticks creates the right heat for simmering...That's one of the advantages of an insulated combustion chamber over an open fire, that even smaller fires are sustained resulting in greater fuel efficiency. The car goes slower when less fuel is delivered...One of the few problems with batch fired high mass heating stoves is that if the day warms unexpectedly after the big hot burn there is no possibility of turndown.Stoves that meter fuel can respond to demand.. .

Best,

Dean

----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
Return-Path: <stoves-return-4566-reedtb2=cs.com@crest.org>
Received: from rly-za03.mx.aol.com (rly-za03.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.99]) by air-za04.mail.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILINZA43-1207130425; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 13:04:25 -0500
Received: from mail.solarhost.com (mail.solarhost.com [206.112.78.16]) by rly-za03.mx.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZA310-1207130412; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 13:04:12 -0500
Received: (qmail 3478 invoked by uid 509); 7 Dec 2001 18:04:11 -0000
Mailing-List: contact stoves-help@crest.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
X-No-Archive: yes
List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
Delivered-To: mailing list stoves@crest.org
Received: (qmail 3472 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2001 18:04:11 -0000
Message-ID: <002201c17f6d$82f8f0c0$2015210c@default>
Reply-To: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
From: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Subject: Re: Metering the fuel makes turndown natural...
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:20:35 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C17E61.2C13B0E0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 8 09:26:21 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Metering the fuel makes turndown natural...
In-Reply-To: <002201c17f6d$82f8f0c0$2015210c@default>
Message-ID: <ml841ucvjarj64onhitc35928v82mg5kdh@4ax.com>

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:20:35 -0800, "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
wrote:

>
>If by turndown we're talking about delivering less heat to the pot when desired; then, in my experience, aren't most direct burning stoves and the three stone fire well able to quickly respond by pushing fewer sticks into the fire? It's one of the conveniences of manually metering fuel that pushing five sticks in the combustion chamber makes the pot boil fast but then only feeding two or three sticks creates the right heat for simmering...That's one of the advantages of an insulated combustion chamber over an open fire, that even smaller fires are sustained resulting in greater fuel efficiency. The car goes slower when less fuel is delivered...One of the few problems with batch fired high mass heating stoves is that if the day warms unexpectedly after the big hot burn there is no possibility of turndown.Stoves that meter fuel can respond to demand.. .

Both Dean and Crispin seem to favour the same sort of design. I have
posted that I do not preclude top feeding a stove fire initiated by an
IDD burn.

If we are to use a car as a simile, and it may be a poor one as an
engine is thermodynamic, a stove is simply releasing energy and
sending it on its way to entropy heaven without changing its state,
then in the case of a spark ignition engine the fuel is metered as is
the air. It is the proportion that is controlled by the carburetor or
ECU.

The Rocket type stove meters fuel by way of the cook, there is also
some feedback to control air because this is induced by the draft of
the chimney effect, which in turn is related to temperature. If this
feedback is not ideal then not only do combustion conditions change
(i.e. high excess air and associated fire quenching), but also the
flue gas is colder and has poorer transfer to the pot.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Sat Dec 8 12:47:27 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas stove
Message-ID: <OE54XQOReaANVgvCNfx0000c578@hotmail.com>

AJH wrote:

> Consider also the high emissivity mantle and a
> gallium arsenide photo voltaic device operating in the infra red
> region, this seems to give the highest conversion per photon in.

Where can I find details on this? I can't get this out of my head. Thanks for
the prod.

Chris Smith

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Dec 9 03:29:18 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Briquetes without holes - Stanley
In-Reply-To: <F2297Z8Mm0yP5UaFVs400024002@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c18026$9b8ff520$50e80fc4@home>

Dear Richard

>Another mountain-to-mohamed solution for controlling heat
>output is to vary the biomass content according to the heat
>output desired--rather than trying to force draft, secondary
>burning and /or raising lowering the pot as you move to
>charcoal stage.

It seems to me that from a practical point of view, we should try to
eliminate the situation where the whole stove goes to a charcoaling phase.
There should be all three stages going all the time in order to have a
continuous heat output. When a reduced heat is required, the amount of fuel
can be reduced.

I have found that if I leave 4 briquettes (180gm - ours are small) in the
grate at a time and try to maintain a continuous heat or a continuous boil,
I have to shut the air down to about 20-40% of aperture early on until the
charcoaling is significant then open it up again. When open the extra air
drives up the rate of charcoal burn to the point where there is significate
heat produced and the boil can be continued. However all things considered,
it is easier to put in 2 briquettes at a time eveny now and then. This
pushes the crusty charcoaled remains of the first ones down (to drop out the
bottom as white ash) and the heat is pretty constant.

EFFICIENCY

In response to another comment it is my observation that the efficiency of
our stove increases dramatically when the fire is old and small. While it
does depend on what we mean by efficiency, once the grate is hot and the
fire dies down to the point where complete secondary combustion is taking
place below the pot bottom, the size of fire/embers that will maintain a
boil is astonishing small, certainly under 100gm.

I think effective percentage heat transfer rate (to the pot) at very low gas
velocities is high. Higher power necessarily involves a higher gas velocity
and a lot of heat goes out past the pot. Even though the rate of
cooking/heating goes way up, the efficiency drop a lot.

WATER HYACINTH

Have you made a combination water hyacinth + other biomass briquette with a
particular heat profile?

Regards
Crispin

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Dec 9 10:00:06 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Briquetes without holes - Stanley
In-Reply-To: <F2297Z8Mm0yP5UaFVs400024002@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C137C54.8BC26A5A@cybershamanix.com>

Crispin wrote:

(snip

> I have found that if I leave 4 briquettes (180gm - ours are small) in the
> grate at a time and try to maintain a continuous heat or a continuous boil,
> I have to shut the air down to about 20-40% of aperture early on until the
> charcoaling is significant then open it up again. When open the extra air
> drives up the rate of charcoal burn to the point where there is significate
> heat produced and the boil can be continued.

I'm not sure what stove design you are working with, but with the
IDD stove, I've been thinking about adding a simple bi-metal spring
draft control to ensure a complete, but controlled burn.

> EFFICIENCY
>
> In response to another comment it is my observation that the efficiency of
> our stove increases dramatically when the fire is old and small. While it
> does depend on what we mean by efficiency, once the grate is hot and the
> fire dies down to the point where complete secondary combustion is taking
> place below the pot bottom, the size of fire/embers that will maintain a
> boil is astonishing small, certainly under 100gm.
>
> I think effective percentage heat transfer rate (to the pot) at very low gas
> velocities is high. Higher power necessarily involves a higher gas velocity
> and a lot of heat goes out past the pot. Even though the rate of
> cooking/heating goes way up, the efficiency drop a lot.

This is the basic problem I have with a forced draft cookstove,
besides just all the extra complexity (with attendant breakage problems)
-- generally in actual cooking, you don't need or want maximum heat. So
other than starting up, or burning green or wet wood, what's the point?
Even with an extremely controllable gas kitchen range, I often find
myself putting metal heat diffusers underneath the pot to slow down the
cooking rate, once the initial boil is achieved. Except for quick stir
frying and the initial boil, you never use maximum heat.

> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

All I get at this URL is an address for "Macy's Stoveworks" -- is
there an URL for this design somewhere? Did a search for it too but
didn't come up with anything pertinent.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sun Dec 9 10:24:15 2001
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Hubbert's Peak: The Impending World Oil Shortage
Message-ID: <10.16e87845.2944dbfe@cs.com>

I have just finished reading "Hubbert's Peak: The Impending World Oil Shortage", by "my friend", Kenneth S. Deffeyes (2001 Princeton U. Press, purchased Amazon.com).

I say "my friend" even though I never met him in person. I'm thinking of posting this to him when I find his address... We have crossed paths many times, but not simultaneously.

I worked at the new Shell Oil Exploration and Production Lab in Houston 1947-48 and my office mate was a young petroleum geologist, M. King Hubbert. (DeFeyes worked there after I left and new Hubbard better than I did).

In 1955 Hubbert became infamous to his Shell bosses by predicting that US oil production would peak in 1970 and then decline. They couldn't believe him and hired a few other geologists who predicted 1990 and 2010. Crisis averted.

Then US Oil production peaked in 1970 and Hubbert became famous. The Hubbert Peak refers to the fact that in geologic time oil production in the US started seriously in 1870 and will be dead by 2070, following a bell shaped curve. Our lives and human history are likely to be guided by these dates. The Colorado School of Mines has a Hubbert Center, devoted to predicting details of oil depletion.

DeFeyes is famous in his own right. He was born and raised in the oil patch, spending his youth as a roughneck in the field. He went to the Colorado School of Mines as an undergraduate and Princeton (?) for graduate work.

I first "met" DeFeyes last summer when I read the book "Basin and Range" by John McFee. McFee crossed the country with DeFeyes, commenting on all aspects of geology in the light of the newly discovered continental drift which explains mountain building etc.

In 1988 I had dinner with Hubbert and asked if he had any predictions for when World oil would peak. He shook his head sadly and said

1 They don't keep such good records as the U.S.

2 OPED quotas encourage the producers to lie about their available reserves
~~~~~~~~
Cutting to the chase, DeFeyes uses his modifications of Hubbert's method to predict that World Oil Production will peak in 2004-2008. This is only a prediction based on the assumptions that mathematicians are more likely to right than politicians and merchants. Take your pick.

DeFeyes doesn't say much about the results of world oil production peaking, and we are all free to make our own speculations. Mine are based on...

A) Our advanced civilization depends on oil more than any other energy source

B) The cost of oil so far been set by a buyers market

C) As oil production declines it will be a sellers market..

D) The cost of oil is likely to double every few years as the remaining oil is depleted

E) The US is rich enough to buy oil when others can't, but many others will be left out in the cold ...

F) The decline of oil use will be good for alternate energy sources and the Biomass Energy Foundation
~~~~~~~`
The future is never revealed....

Yours truly, TOM REED THE BIOMASS ENERGY FOUNDATION

From LINVENT at aol.com Sun Dec 9 12:04:55 2001
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Hubbert's Peak: The Impending World Oil Shortage
Message-ID: <18d.26a85b.2944f3aa@aol.com>

Dear Tom and all,
Like so many things in our economy, pricing and supply is a matter of
politics. If the politicians were truly interested in the economic stability
of our country and our heirs, they would have barred imported oil long time
ago. This would have also changed the face of the Mideast. Unfortunately, the
weak politicians rely upon the band-aid method of planning and the sins of
the fathers will fall squarely on the sons and grandsons.
Now, the energy bill, anti-terrorist bills, farm bill and a whole host of
politically hot potatos are being subject to the party battles in Washington.
It is my understanding that Bingaman's 400 page energy bill addresses
renewable energy in a big way and he spent a year or more assembling it. Will
it make any difference, depends upon which party is arguing the issues. I am
sure that Big Oil will do it's damnest to prevent this.
But, the one thing that can be said is that this may be the first time
that a major bill has been introduced to deal with these items and has a
chance of succeeding. Many DOE and other energy programs are tied up in this
bill.
We have the ability to become energy independent. Through coal and
biomass gasification to liquid fuels, Alaska supply (which just prolongs the
oil dependency), and a list of conservation efforts. But with gas at a
$1.00/gallon price, why bother? Once again, short sighted sins of the fathers
will pass down.
It is very interesting to note that high profile geologists with the
foresight to predict the future accurately. This is what the politicos should
be listening to.
There is a huge interest in renewable energy in spite of the lagging of
congress and the current low oil prices. Those who are in the field need to
move quickly before the memories fade. We have short memories in this country
as the current prices may stay there for some time. OPEC does not seem to be
able to keep prices up the way they want to.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-2nd St. NW, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87107
phone 505-761-1454 fax 505-761-1456
Attached files are zipped and can be decompressed with <A
HREF="http://www.aladdinsys.com/expander/">www.aladdinsys.com/expander/ </A>

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
www.webpan.com/BEF
List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>

Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
-
Other Gasification Events and Information:
http://www.bioenergy2002.org
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/gasref.shtml
http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Dec 9 16:11:48 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas stove
In-Reply-To: <OE54XQOReaANVgvCNfx0000c578@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <vnj71ukcb5a4ad1l6917pjgcm4v3q6aqv4@4ax.com>

On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:47:05 -0800, "Chris Smith"
<hotspringfreak@hotmail.com> wrote:

>AJH wrote:
>
>> Consider also the high emissivity mantle and a
>> gallium arsenide photo voltaic device operating in the infra red
>> region, this seems to give the highest conversion per photon in.
>
>
>Where can I find details on this? I can't get this out of my head. Thanks for
>the prod.

I did another quick search as my comment was from old memory. I made a
mistake and gallium antimonide is a better converter of infra read to
electricity.

The work on low EMR generators was a spin of from a US ballistic
missile programme. There is an article at
http://www.bmdotechnology.net/techsearch.asp?articleid=474

and search on "thermo photo voltaic" produces a number of hits on
vapourware.

My interest lies in the proposition that

1) this may produce the small number of watts required to fulfil my
perceived air delivery requirements in a simple stove.

2) the need for a flame temperature of ~1000C almost guarantees good
combustion conditions

3) the high emissivity lightweight insulating combustion chamber
material required will also offer gains in radiant heat transfer to
the pot.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Mon Dec 10 01:30:26 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection woodgas stove
In-Reply-To: <OE54XQOReaANVgvCNfx0000c578@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OE26oFT3kMUVfNIJWND0000c46d@hotmail.com>

"RealSoonNow" and a few years down the road, but you are absolutely right. An
obscure development - quick of you to catch it. Great concept, shift solar cell
technology down to lower bandwidth to run on fire. This website points to it's
applicability for "remote field units such as field generators and self-powered
appliances such as water heaters and gas furnaces." Powering forced draft
stoves and charging batteries will be no trick for this either. Like in that
old game: Fire beats paper -- unless batteries are printed on paper ... then
perhaps fire and paper are an even "match":

Printable batteries - silk screened, low cost, green, environmentally friendly
and disposable:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/power-paper.htm

I'm relieved - this clue to thermovoltaics has bothered me for weeks. Thank you
so much.

Chris Smith

----- Original Message -----
From: "AJH" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: homemade forced convection woodgas stove

On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:47:05 -0800, "Chris Smith"
<hotspringfreak@hotmail.com> wrote:

I did another quick search as my comment was from old memory. I made a
mistake and gallium antimonide is a better converter of infra read to
electricity.

The work on low EMR generators was a spin of from a US ballistic
missile programme. There is an article at
http://www.bmdotechnology.net/techsearch.asp?articleid=474

and search on "thermo photo voltaic" produces a number of hits on
vapourware.

My interest lies in the proposition that

1) this may produce the small number of watts required to fulfil my
perceived air delivery requirements in a simple stove.

2) the need for a flame temperature of ~1000C almost guarantees good
combustion conditions

3) the high emissivity lightweight insulating combustion chamber
material required will also offer gains in radiant heat transfer to
the pot.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crouchpa at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 10 11:34:13 2001
From: crouchpa at ix.netcom.com (John Crouch)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection wood gas stove
In-Reply-To: <OE26oFT3kMUVfNIJWND0000c46d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801c18199$a902d8c0$99eebb0a@computer>

Chris,
This technology is also in development in at least one pellet fueled
woodstove, in the U.S.

John Crouch
Director of Public Affairs
Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association
California Office
crouch@hpba.org
916.536.2390

This website points to it's
applicability for "remote field units such as field generators and
self-powered
appliances such as water heaters and gas furnaces." Powering forced draft
stoves and charging batteries will be no trick for this either.

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Mon Dec 10 14:31:23 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection wood gas stove
In-Reply-To: <001801c18199$a902d8c0$99eebb0a@computer>
Message-ID: <OE26UD5euwdUTaGmvSV0000cb1d@hotmail.com>

----- Original Message -----

From: "John Crouch" <crouchpa@ix.netcom.com>
To: "'Chris Smith'" <hotspringfreak@hotmail.com>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:35 AM
Subject: RE: homemade forced convection wood gas stove

> Chris,
> This technology is also in development in at least one pellet fueled
> woodstove, in the U.S.
>
> John Crouch
> Director of Public Affairs
> Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association
> California Office
> crouch@hpba.org
> 916.536.2390

Thanks for pointing that out John. I did see that only yesterday and I'm sure
it's of interest on this list. For those ... contact information and a picture
of the Midnight Sun TPV (thermovoltaic) stove is at page bottom at:

http://www.jxcrystals.com/

Produces 1000 W at choice of 12 V/24 V, cost about $2500 USD and is available
for product testing and evaluation ("preferably in or near Seattle").
500 W units are being protyped and are presented, along with a short video.
Still relatively expensive.

Chris Smith

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Mon Dec 10 14:46:50 2001
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: homemade forced convection wood gas stove
In-Reply-To: <OE26UD5euwdUTaGmvSV0000cb1d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C14BCD8.23992.40E4249@localhost>

I believe you meant 100W, not 1000W.

If someone could ever figure out how to get this thermoPV stuff to
work with solid fuel, I'd be mighty keen. As it is, so far as I know,
the technology is restricted to fossil fuels.

BTW, 100W may not seem like much, but it's all relative. For one
thing, I think current (no pun intended) prices in the US would run
you at least $500 for a 100W solar panel. I run a home/office
(in serious conserver mode) from a 250W solar array. So far this
winter I've had to run a generator twice, after a full week of heavy
cloud. If I could get 100W out of a wood stove, I'd be laughing.

-smw

From: "Chris Smith" <hotspringfreak@hotmail.com>
To: "John Crouch" <crouchpa@ix.netcom.com>
Copies to: <stoves@crest.org>
Subject: Re: homemade forced convection wood gas stove
Date sent: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:31:06 -0800

> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "John Crouch" <crouchpa@ix.netcom.com>
> To: "'Chris Smith'" <hotspringfreak@hotmail.com>
> Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:35 AM
> Subject: RE: homemade forced convection wood gas stove
>
>
> > Chris,
> > This technology is also in development in at least one pellet fueled
> > woodstove, in the U.S.
> >
> > John Crouch
> > Director of Public Affairs
> > Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association
> > California Office
> > crouch@hpba.org
> > 916.536.2390
>
> Thanks for pointing that out John. I did see that only yesterday and I'm sure
> it's of interest on this list. For those ... contact information and a picture
> of the Midnight Sun TPV (thermovoltaic) stove is at page bottom at:
>
> http://www.jxcrystals.com/
>
> Produces 1000 W at choice of 12 V/24 V, cost about $2500 USD and is available
> for product testing and evaluation ("preferably in or near Seattle").
> 500 W units are being protyped and are presented, along with a short video.
> Still relatively expensive.
>
> Chris Smith
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crouchpa at ix.netcom.com Tue Dec 11 16:58:17 2001
From: crouchpa at ix.netcom.com (John Crouch)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: TPV pellet fueled heater
In-Reply-To: <OE26UD5euwdUTaGmvSV0000cb1d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c18290$24acf220$99eebb0a@computer>

Chris,
I was actually referring to the pellet fueled unit developed by Thelin
company. It is not yet on their web site, although they burned it at the
North American Wood heater Expo last March. It generates a modest amount of
power, just enough for it's own requirements and to recharge it's 24 volt
batteries. Jay Thelin is still working on the product, including bring the
cost down, while busy running a pellet stove company, but this may go to
market next April.
TPV is certainly still in it's early early infancy, with a very high cost to
value relationship, even for North America. BUT, so was photovoltaic
technology at one time, and now it finds cost effective applications
throughout the world.
John Crouch

Thanks for pointing that out John. I did see that only yesterday and I'm
sure
it's of interest on this list. For those ... contact information and a
picture
of the Midnight Sun TPV (thermovoltaic) stove is at page bottom at:

http://www.jxcrystals.com/

Produces 1000 W at choice of 12 V/24 V, cost about $2500 USD and is
available
for product testing and evaluation ("preferably in or near Seattle").
500 W units are being protyped and are presented, along with a short video.
Still relatively expensive.

Chris Smith

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Dec 11 21:10:03 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
In-Reply-To: <12.16fada21.2947694c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c182b5$34b73d40$b751c5cb@vsnl.net.in>

Dear Dan,
thanks. Your ideas are always welcome and thought provoking. Especially the
suggestion made by you to identify a region and a species that would produce
plants having a low mineral content. In fact, all of us botanists were
looking exactly in the opposite direction. Plants have the ability to take
up elements from a very dilute source and to concentrate them in their
tissues. Thus carbon, phosphorus, sulphur, calcium, silicon, aluminium
etc., which are available in nature in a very dilute form, get concentrated
in the plant tissues. We in India, and I think also a lot of other
scientists all over the world, are looking for plants that would sequester
and concentrate some of the more valuable elements like gold, silver,
uranium, etc. But your suggestion to produce clean coal by growing plants in
mineral-poor soils is much easier to follow.
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal

> Karve,
> I'm glad you have brought these fine points out. I am sure for the
type
> of char you are working with, that these elements are of some concern, and
> all of this needs to be looked into.
> What I am particularly looking into is metallurgic char. Calcium and
> silicon are not quite the concern, only in total. The lime and ore
introduce
> these elements anyway.
> I realize that phosphorus is also very necessary for plant growth. Any
> way to manipulate lower levels is very important however, to making
cleaner
> iron and then steel. pH affects this though to a large degree.
> If one is to vary the pH of soil, one can change the uptake of such
> minerals and then rebalance the remainder to insure sufficient growth of
the
> trees.
> Soil can have it's pH changed with the addition of sulfur or lime and
by
> choice of nitrogen and other mineral sources. Not practical in India on a
> wide scale of course. Where high grade metallurgic char is concerned, this
> may be practical in some regions. Maybe we just have to look at the
sourcing
> of such trees for wood to make char in the first place, and choose the
right
> existing conditions for plantations. Sulfur is of course a negative for
metal
> as well.
> The point of my letter was to bring up the possibilities of lowering
> specific ash components for specific purposes, by manipulation of the
> nutrients in the media whatever it is.
> Plant metabolism is so complex that each case will have to be studied
> separately. I have just pointed out a mechanism with which this can be
done.
> I have very little in the way of instrumentation now. As I become more
> established in R&D, I will start to observe these parameters.
> Have you had any success in changing any of the points I had brought
up
> some time ago for your retort system?
> Have you obtained the proceedings of the Brazil conference? There is
a
> lot of good information in there about retort process, and I highly
recommend
> this investment for you. They cost US$ 20.00 +shipping.
> I can see you have set up this funding program for building your
kilns.
> Unfortunately, I am very much a struggling inventor, with 3 children. I
> would be happy to donate to this worthy cause if my projects should become
> more successful financially, I will remember you. It seems you have done
> everything properly to make it a success. Meanwhile, I can discuss ideas,
and
> that does not cost anything, but may add something to our mutual
situation.
> My charcoal retort project should start soon. I am trying to do some
work
> on the greenhouse today before the cold finally gets here for winter. I am
> thankful it is warm so late in the season.
> When my charcoal maker is together, I will report to you what I find,
and
> how successfully it functions. Maybe you can help me troubleshoot then.
> Until then take care,
> Dan Dimiduk
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Wed Dec 12 01:33:33 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
In-Reply-To: <12.16fada21.2947694c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212162143.00a30750@mail.optusnet.com.au>

Forgive me for butting in but this is the first I hear of plants actually
being used to concentrate certain elements.
A short time ago I saw a documentary on TV about water reconditioning (I
think in Calcutta) where Water Hyacinths (Eichornia crassipes) were used to
concentrate all kinds of elements from the sewage water. Regrettably there
was no explanation on what was done to the Eichornia. All I heard up to now
about Eichornia is that it is a fast growing pest and that nobody knows how
to eradicate it. The problem is usually solved as soon as a commercially
viable use is found.
Presumably most of the sequestered elements would be found in the ash after
burning, which argues for harvesting, drying and briquetting Eichornia. And
collecting and processing the ash afterward.

Peter (Piet) Verhaart

At 07:33 12/12/01 +0530, you wrote:
>Dear Dan,
>thanks. Your ideas are always welcome and thought provoking. Especially the
>suggestion made by you to identify a region and a species that would produce
>plants having a low mineral content. In fact, all of us botanists were
>looking exactly in the opposite direction. Plants have the ability to take
>up elements from a very dilute source and to concentrate them in their
>tissues. Thus carbon, phosphorus, sulphur, calcium, silicon, aluminium
>etc., which are available in nature in a very dilute form, get concentrated
>in the plant tissues. We in India, and I think also a lot of other
>scientists all over the world, are looking for plants that would sequester
>and concentrate some of the more valuable elements like gold, silver,
>uranium, etc. But your suggestion to produce clean coal by growing plants in
>mineral-poor soils is much easier to follow.
>A.D.Karve

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Wed Dec 12 08:10:45 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
In-Reply-To: <12.16fada21.2947694c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006501c18311$7ec1d740$a251c5cb@vsnl.net.in>

A lot of plants including water hyacinth have special proteins called
metallothioneins ( I may be wrong about the spelling) in their roots. These
proteins bind with heavy metals in the water absorbed by the roots, so that
the water sent up to the leaves is detoxified. I do not know if anybody has
commercialised a process based on this phenomenon, but one can theoretically
think of removing elements such as nickel (from a hydrogenated oil producing
plant) or chromium (from a chrome plating factory or from a tannery) from
effluent water, and then recovering it from the ash.
Sea water contains all the elements in minute quantities. If one can find
an alga that selectively absorbs and sequesters the one or the other
element, this would open up a new way of mining for that element.
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal

> Forgive me for butting in but this is the first I hear of plants actually
> being used to concentrate certain elements.
> A short time ago I saw a documentary on TV about water reconditioning (I
> think in Calcutta) where Water Hyacinths (Eichornia crassipes) were used
to
> concentrate all kinds of elements from the sewage water. Regrettably there
> was no explanation on what was done to the Eichornia. All I heard up to
now
> about Eichornia is that it is a fast growing pest and that nobody knows
how
> to eradicate it. The problem is usually solved as soon as a commercially
> viable use is found.
> Presumably most of the sequestered elements would be found in the ash
after
> burning, which argues for harvesting, drying and briquetting Eichornia.
And
> collecting and processing the ash afterward.
>
> Peter (Piet) Verhaart
>
>
> At 07:33 12/12/01 +0530, you wrote:
> >Dear Dan,
> >thanks. Your ideas are always welcome and thought provoking. Especially
the
> >suggestion made by you to identify a region and a species that would
produce
> >plants having a low mineral content. In fact, all of us botanists were
> >looking exactly in the opposite direction. Plants have the ability to
take
> >up elements from a very dilute source and to concentrate them in their
> >tissues. Thus carbon, phosphorus, sulphur, calcium, silicon, aluminium
> >etc., which are available in nature in a very dilute form, get
concentrated
> >in the plant tissues. We in India, and I think also a lot of other
> >scientists all over the world, are looking for plants that would
sequester
> >and concentrate some of the more valuable elements like gold, silver,
> >uranium, etc. But your suggestion to produce clean coal by growing plants
in
> >mineral-poor soils is much easier to follow.
> >A.D.Karve
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Carefreeland at aol.com Wed Dec 12 09:35:09 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
Message-ID: <d4.10766eaf.2948c50c@aol.com>

Karve,
That is just my dyslexic "handicap" kicking in again, reversing every
study. Studies were done many years ago, into the pickup of radiation by
plants, from fallout following the above ground nuclear tests in the 60's.
The results were amazing. It should be noted that the above ground plant
familles that had the highest pickup of radiation, were the short leafy ones.
Examples are cabbage family, and (no surprise) tobacco.
I would feel like I was incriminating someone, to point out who told me
this, but it was a very reliable source. Others are quick to dispel this
"myth" so I figure that there is a lot of reverse propaganda out there. It
is quite easy to see that plants with long stems and branched leaf structure
would filter out more impurities than flat leafy ones. The plants that pick
up the most heavy minerals are without exception the root crops.
If we want to clean soil of fallout contamination, maybe we should be
growing carrots and radishes, and then burning them to extract the ore. Am I
the first person to suggest this? I doubt it. Just most are not so bold as
to say it in public. Someone has to start the wheels of healing turning,
as a lot of my distant kin in the Ukraine and eastern Europe are "dying" to
know how this can be done.
They know their soil is contaminated, but don't know that within the
problem of contaminated garden cabbage lies the solution. As I have said
repeatedly, it's time to stop pointing fingers, and start getting the work
done. Only by accepting the mistakes of the past, can we move beyond them.
This topic was mentioned briefly in "wastewatts" list just briefly only a
month or two ago.
Now lets flip this back around, and say that if we don't want a specific
mineral in our char, then the plant must be given enough of the elements that
enable it to survive without so much, and still grow and sequester carbon
rapidly.
It's interesting that Oak roots grow very slowly, and that tree is very
hard to transplant. Now phosphorus is essential to root growth. Can I make a
suggestion that one of the reasons for low ash in Oak wood, is the ability to
grow with low levels of phosphorus? This is only a half baked thought, so It
is open to much farther observation.
What about pine? What is it's mechanism for such low ash, even though it
grows much faster? Does it's ability to make a sticky sap have something to
do with the lack of less soluble elements?
Where does pH figure in? I am looknig at one of those charts of the
availability of minerals at various pH's. The acid side of the scale below
6.0 limits the availability of many of the unwanted "ash" minerals such as
phosphorus and sulfur. This would leave one to belive that an acid loving
soil, with acid loving plants, would do best overall at limiting ash in the
char produced by those plants. This is consistent with the charts listing
ash in plants that I have seen.
Back to an observation that I made some time ago. Where does silicon
figure in to this whole equation? I do not see silicon mentioned in any plant
nutrition books, yet the silicon and silicon dioxide must play a major role
in this balance.
The fruits and nuts are easy to explain. The long path to the top of the
tree filters out all but the most soluble minerals. This explains the high
potassium levels.
I find more questions than answers, and that is why I will spend much
time in the future studying these parameters. Those who have any information
to add here, are more than welcome to add to this very important discussion.
On we grow,
Daniel Dimiduk

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From legacyfound at hotmail.com Wed Dec 12 12:08:28 2001
From: legacyfound at hotmail.com (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
Message-ID: <F210jmfCHJr1Wtyi67E00000dbc@hotmail.com>

>From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
>To: "Peter Verhaart" <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>
>CC: <stoves@crest.org>
>Subject: Re: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
>Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:25:56 +0530
>
>A lot of plants including water hyacinth have special proteins called
>metallothioneins ( I may be wrong about the spelling) in their roots.
>These
>proteins bind with heavy metals in the water absorbed by the roots, so that
>the water sent up to the leaves is detoxified. I do not know if anybody
>has
>commercialised a process based on this phenomenon, but one can
>theoretically
>think of removing elements such as nickel (from a hydrogenated oil
>producing
>plant) or chromium (from a chrome plating factory or from a tannery) from
>effluent water, and then recovering it from the ash.
>Sea water contains all the elements in minute quantities. If one can find
>an alga that selectively absorbs and sequesters the one or the other
>element, this would open up a new way of mining for that element.
>A.D.Karve
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>
>To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
>Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 12:03 PM
>Subject: Re: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
>
>
> > Forgive me for butting in but this is the first I hear of plants
>actually
> > being used to concentrate certain elements.
> > A short time ago I saw a documentary on TV about water reconditioning (I
> > think in Calcutta) where Water Hyacinths (Eichornia crassipes) were used
>to
> > concentrate all kinds of elements from the sewage water. Regrettably
>there
> > was no explanation on what was done to the Eichornia. All I heard up to
>now
> > about Eichornia is that it is a fast growing pest and that nobody knows
>how
> > to eradicate it. The problem is usually solved as soon as a commercially
> > viable use is found.
> > Presumably most of the sequestered elements would be found in the ash
>after
> > burning, which argues for harvesting, drying and briquetting Eichornia.
>And
> > collecting and processing the ash afterward.
> >
> > Peter (Piet) Verhaart
> >
> >
> > At 07:33 12/12/01 +0530, you wrote:
> > >Dear Dan,
> > >thanks. Your ideas are always welcome and thought provoking.
>Especially
>the
> > >suggestion made by you to identify a region and a species that would
>produce
> > >plants having a low mineral content. In fact, all of us botanists were
> > >looking exactly in the opposite direction. Plants have the ability to
>take
> > >up elements from a very dilute source and to concentrate them in their
> > >tissues. Thus carbon, phosphorus, sulphur, calcium, silicon, aluminium
> > >etc., which are available in nature in a very dilute form, get
>concentrated
> > >in the plant tissues. We in India, and I think also a lot of other
> > >scientists all over the world, are looking for plants that would
>sequester
> > >and concentrate some of the more valuable elements like gold, silver,
> > >uranium, etc. But your suggestion to produce clean coal by growing
>plants
>in
> > >mineral-poor soils is much easier to follow.
> > >A.D.Karve
> >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >
> >
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
>Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.bioenergy2002.org
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

Stovers, particularly KArve and Peter , There is a biochemist and priest
and rural devvelopment worker all in one fantastic person by the name of
Father Mzmamujo who runs a training center in Benin West AfricaHe has been
utilising the hyacinth for the purpose of filtering sewage from ablution
blocks at his center. He teaches at UCLA when he is not in Benin. I do not
have contact information but he should be easy to reach. Tell him I said
hello ! We met at a rural energy conference in Lilongwe Malawi, East
Africa, in 1999.

As to briquetting thehyacith, it works well. There appears a waxen surface
hich seems to preserve the plant in waterh and add significantly to its heat
value. While it will not give you a licking flame it is great fr long
simmering of food. A 125 gm briquette of 50% hyacinth and the balance of
other leafy vegetation and grasses will burn slowly for up to 1.5 hours, to
ash stage. The usual burn time (for non hyacinth compositions ) is more like
45 minutes, to ash.

In Zimbabwe as MAlawi and lake vistoria, happy donors are rejoicing in the
use of biological controls and others still mechanical dredgers. The issue
is of course abit deeper than simple removal , as you have both intimated,
the question is what is its function in the biota and if altered what takes
its place. By harvesting it sustainably, one can generate high lots of local
employment and eliminate the government´s expenditure for removal which is
often considerable (the plant regenerates every 28 days and in Lake Victoria
at least, it grows to a depth of 3 mtrs over 400 sq Km surface area).
Complete removal is probably as unlikely as it is outrageously expensive and
---ecologically foolish. Nature´s water treatment plant is essential (by
definition of its presence) to these areas.

I will be back in Uganda over the next several months and will be doing some
local briquette production usingin part, the hyacinth as a resource in
local cabacity building exercises with trainers from one of our groups in
Kenya, and will let you all know what we discover for your as usual highly
illuminating insights.

Richard Stanley
(www.legacyfound.org)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Dec 12 18:17:08 2001
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
Message-ID: <184.9fe9e1.29493f63@cs.com>

Dear All:

Good discussion. In particular, a sizable chunk of the former Soviet Union
is now contaminated and unusable, courtesy of the Chernobyl reactor accident.

A decade ago I suggested massive planting (by air?) of a selective species
that would convert the radioactive minerals to biomass. They could then be
harvested (mechanically and automatically?) and gasified (not combusted which
makes the ash airborne...) and extracted and sequestered or recycled.

No one seemed interested at the time. Big job, but would put millions of
acres back into production.

TOM REED BEF GASWORKS

PS With EMAIL we need new forms of address. "Dear All" is presumably a
better address than "Dear Youall:" or "Dear Sirs and Madams:". Please give
this some condsideration and help me find a better form.

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Dec 12 18:19:48 2001
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: THermophotovoltaics...
Message-ID: <68.182f8406.29493f91@cs.com>

Dear All:

The high emissivity of mantles in the visible spectrum is a mixed bag. It
provides beautiful white visible light, thanks to Welsbach and his thesis
under Prof. Bunsen (Mr. Burner).

But that then requires a high bandgap converter.

Maybe it would be better to use a good IR emitter with a smaller gap
material.

Tim Couts is working on this at NREL, but doesn't seem to be making much
progress.

YOurs truly, TOM REED
>AJH wrote:
>
>> Consider also the high emissivity mantle and a
>> gallium arsenide photo voltaic device operating in the infra red
>> region, this seems to give the highest conversion per photon in.
>
>
>Where can I find details on this? I can't get this out of my head. Thanks
for
>the prod.

I did another quick search as my comment was from old memory. I made a
mistake and gallium antimonide is a better converter of infra read to
electricity.

The work on low EMR generators was a spin of from a US ballistic
missile programme. There is an article at
http://www.bmdotechnology.net/techsearch.asp?articleid=474

and search on "thermo photo voltaic" produces a number of hits on
vapourware.

My interest lies in the proposition that

1) this may produce the small number of watts required to fulfil my
perceived air delivery requirements in a simple stove.

2) the need for a flame temperature of ~1000C almost guarantees good
combustion conditions

3) the high emissivity lightweight insulating combustion chamber
material required will also offer gains in radiant heat transfer to
the pot.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From bbergin at webtv.net Wed Dec 12 21:38:29 2001
From: bbergin at webtv.net (bbergin@webtv.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Corn stoves ( construction details)
Message-ID: <3824-3C18149E-1218@storefull-214.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Hello Everyone! I have been on the stove list for about three months.
This is my first posting. So far I havent seen much about corn burning
stoves. I would like to build one myself, to save money on the initial
cost and the seasonal cost of natural gas for winter heating. From what
I read in the sales ads,corn stoves dont require a regular chiminey, and
cresote is not a problem connected with their operation, also last but
not least they are approved for mobile homes. My current problem is
that I havent yet found enough detailed information to build one for my
own use. I hope that someone out there could give me some clues. If
not , thanks all the same, and best wishes to all. Bill B.

Have a Great Day

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Thu Dec 13 06:18:13 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
In-Reply-To: <F210jmfCHJr1Wtyi67E00000dbc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213210724.00a4c9c0@mail.optusnet.com.au>

Richard,

Good to know something is done with hyacinths, my impression is
the contain a lot of moisture. Many years ago, when working in Bandung,
Indonesia, I took some from the pond in our garden, weighed them and dried
them to constant mass. I lost the figures but if memory serves the dry mass
was around 30% of the original.
I had a look at your website and was impressed. One question came up. Do
people in the US use wood for their barbecues?
Here in Australia, with plenty firewood around, almost everybody, including
myself, have a propane burning BBQ. To immediately rehabilitate myself I
rarely use it, instead I regularly use my home made downdraft wood burning
BBQ. It would be interesting to try junkmail briquettes in it.

Peter Verhaart

At 08:56 12/12/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Stovers, particularly KArve and Peter , There is a biochemist and priest
>and rural devvelopment worker all in one fantastic person by the name of
>Father Mzmamujo who runs a training center in Benin West AfricaHe has been
>utilising the hyacinth for the purpose of filtering sewage from ablution
>blocks at his center. He teaches at UCLA when he is not in Benin. I do not
>have contact information but he should be easy to reach. Tell him I said
>hello ! We met at a rural energy conference in Lilongwe Malawi, East
>Africa, in 1999.
>
>As to briquetting thehyacith, it works well. There appears a waxen surface
>hich seems to preserve the plant in waterh and add significantly to its
>heat value. While it will not give you a licking flame it is great fr long
>simmering of food. A 125 gm briquette of 50% hyacinth and the balance of
>other leafy vegetation and grasses will burn slowly for up to 1.5 hours,
>to ash stage. The usual burn time (for non hyacinth compositions ) is more
>like 45 minutes, to ash.
>
>In Zimbabwe as MAlawi and lake vistoria, happy donors are rejoicing in the
>use of biological controls and others still mechanical dredgers. The issue
>is of course abit deeper than simple removal , as you have both intimated,
>the question is what is its function in the biota and if altered what
>takes its place. By harvesting it sustainably, one can generate high lots
>of local employment and eliminate the government´s expenditure for
>removal which is often considerable (the plant regenerates every 28 days
>and in Lake Victoria at least, it grows to a depth of 3 mtrs over 400 sq
>Km surface area).
>Complete removal is probably as unlikely as it is outrageously expensive
>and ---ecologically foolish. Nature´s water treatment plant is essential
>(by definition of its presence) to these areas.
>
>I will be back in Uganda over the next several months and will be doing
>some local briquette production usingin part, the hyacinth as a
>resource in local cabacity building exercises with trainers from one of
>our groups in Kenya, and will let you all know what we discover for your
>as usual highly illuminating insights.
>
>Richard Stanley
>(www.legacyfound.org)
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Dec 13 09:33:36 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213210724.00a4c9c0@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <3C18BC1D.1D088619@cybershamanix.com>

Peter Verhaart wrote:
>
> Richard,
>
> Good to know something is done with hyacinths, my impression is
> the contain a lot of moisture. Many years ago, when working in Bandung,
> Indonesia, I took some from the pond in our garden, weighed them and dried
> them to constant mass. I lost the figures but if memory serves the dry mass
> was around 30% of the original.

If they retain 30% of their weight, that's quite good. Most
herbaceous plants only retain about 10%. And I recently dried some
pieces of a succulent which only retained about .5%.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From english at adan.kingston.net Thu Dec 13 22:17:16 2001
From: english at adan.kingston.net (*.English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: The Wizard of IDD
In-Reply-To: <9e.1ef3e634.29493f8b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <200112140317.fBE3H9M18679@adan.kingston.net>

Dear Tom,
You are the wizard of IDD stoves. However the Inverted Down Draft
title continues to confuse. So rather than make the acronym an
anachronism, let us try for a new obfuscating name. How about the
Incrementally Descending Distillation Stove.

Alex

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Fri Dec 14 00:51:02 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
In-Reply-To: <12.16fada21.2947694c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011214145234.00a47ec0@mail.optusnet.com.au>

Thank you for your interesting comment. However, if water hyacinths only
absorb heavy metals from water that is absorbed by the roots (for use by
the plant) then the water surrounding the plant will not change its
composition. If that is true, the only way to recover the heavy metals is
to have a sufficient number of hyacinths so that all the effluent water is
absorbed.
Am I making a mistake somewhere?
Kind regards,

Peter Verhaart

At 18:25 12/12/01 +0530, you wrote:
>A lot of plants including water hyacinth have special proteins called
>metallothioneins ( I may be wrong about the spelling) in their roots. These
>proteins bind with heavy metals in the water absorbed by the roots, so that
>the water sent up to the leaves is detoxified. I do not know if anybody has
>commercialised a process based on this phenomenon, but one can theoretically
>think of removing elements such as nickel (from a hydrogenated oil producing
>plant) or chromium (from a chrome plating factory or from a tannery) from
>effluent water, and then recovering it from the ash.
>Sea water contains all the elements in minute quantities. If one can find
>an alga that selectively absorbs and sequesters the one or the other
>element, this would open up a new way of mining for that element.
>A.D.Karve

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Fri Dec 14 05:11:16 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Growing low ash biomass and charcoal
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213210724.00a4c9c0@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <majj1u8bsshusq1ll79r13s6mptseqg3t0@4ax.com>

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:33:02 -0600, Harmon Seaver
<hseaver@cybershamanix.com> wrote:

> If they retain 30% of their weight, that's quite good. Most
>herbaceous plants only retain about 10%. And I recently dried some
>pieces of a succulent which only retained about .5%.

Results from my drying:

dry weight wet weight %mc wwb
2 cobs 50 200 75.00%
1 tomato 1 50 98.00%
1 potato 25 200 87.50%
1 apple 1 120 99.17%
1 mushroom 0.1 5 98.00%
0ak 0.5 1 50.00%

Not very accurate as my scales are not precise, +-5 grams at best.

The thing I find is that despite the perceived wisdom that dry biomass
is of similar chemical makeup, these dried vegetables char and burn
differently from wood, from a subjective point of view.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 15 17:08:53 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: THermophotovoltaics...
In-Reply-To: <68.182f8406.29493f91@cs.com>
Message-ID: <jkdn1usfqkvqqb8jdjuqrip2h3voejve9q@4ax.com>

On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:17:37 EST, Reedtb2@cs.com wrote:
>The high emissivity of mantles in the visible spectrum is a mixed bag. It
>provides beautiful white visible light, thanks to Welsbach and his thesis
>under Prof. Bunsen (Mr. Burner).
>
>But that then requires a high bandgap converter.
>
>Maybe it would be better to use a good IR emitter with a smaller gap
>material.
>
>Tim Couts is working on this at NREL, but doesn't seem to be making much
>progress.

If an when the science turns into usable technology it will still take
a long time to filter down to the 3W stoves level. I am into
intermediate technology, the art and science of kludge.

So I still think a radiant combustion chamber achieved by whatever
means will allow the benefits of cooking on embers, which I assume
convey the heat into the food by radiation.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 15 17:09:52 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: Corn stoves ( construction details)
In-Reply-To: <3824-3C18149E-1218@storefull-214.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <qudn1u0dj3biorsdnm19ve0sbt1n4e119f@4ax.com>

On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:38:22 -0600 (CST), bbergin@webtv.net wrote:

>Hello Everyone! I have been on the stove list for about three months.
>This is my first posting. So far I havent seen much about corn burning
>stoves.

I guess the concept of burning corn will be a bit of an anachronism to
many on this list. Whilst it may be a pragmatic solution to
agricultural surpluses in the rich world it sends a bad message to
those without wealth or surpluses.

>I would like to build one myself, to save money on the initial
>cost and the seasonal cost of natural gas for winter heating. From what
>I read in the sales ads,corn stoves dont require a regular chiminey, and
>cresote is not a problem connected with their operation,

I think they are similar to pellet stoves, with maybe some
modifications to prevent slagging and corrosion from the more fusible
ash with char and I believe higher chlorine and nitrogen compounds in
the flue gas. They tend to used forced draught and hence the ability
for a short flue, combustion is controlled as is the fuel moisture
content, hence clean burning and low PICs or condensed tars in the
flue.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 15 17:10:52 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:28 2004
Subject: TPV pellet fueled heater
In-Reply-To: <OE26UD5euwdUTaGmvSV0000cb1d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <6fen1ug66l3gt6lp995v0gi27rnqgriamg@4ax.com>

On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:05:24 -0800, "John Crouch"
<crouchpa@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Chris,
>I was actually referring to the pellet fueled unit developed by Thelin
>company. It is not yet on their web site, although they burned it at the

Didn't a Canadian firm (dellpoint?) announce something similar?

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 15 17:11:49 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: The Wizard of IDD
In-Reply-To: <9e.1ef3e634.29493f8b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <hhdn1ukpfg5psf4khof6hunjbqo1vjmtaq@4ax.com>

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:18:27 -0500, "*.English"
<english@adan.kingston.net> wrote:

>Dear Tom,
>You are the wizard of IDD stoves. However the Inverted Down Draft
>title continues to confuse. So rather than make the acronym an
>anachronism, let us try for a new obfuscating name. How about the
>Incrementally Descending Distillation Stove.

OK I gave up after RELADEPYF (REED-LARSON descending pyrolysis front)
stove. IDD sounds better than DPF or DFPF, even if colonials have
problems spelling draught :-).

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Dec 17 22:54:17 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: "Kilns for Char" project, incl. funding
In-Reply-To: <130.655e1d5.294f84ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c1877a$a06ad3c0$1950c5cb@vsnl.net.in>

Dear Mr. Hodson,
thanks for your E-mail. You can read answers
to your questions below each of the the questions:

A.D.Karve
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
THodson@aol.com

To: <A href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
title=psanders@ilstu.edu>psanders@ilstu.edu ; <A
href="mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in"
title=adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in ; <A
href="mailto:gtrim@hotmail.com" title=gtrim@hotmail.com>gary trimmel ; <A
href="mailto:sandyba@net66.com" title=sandyba@net66.com>sandyba@net66.com
; <A href="mailto:Kfarhills@aol.com"
title=Kfarhills@aol.com>Kfarhills@aol.com ; <A
href="mailto:nestoral@msn.com" title=nestoral@msn.com>nestoral@msn.com ;
<A href="mailto:dancraw@uillinois.edu"
title=dancraw@uillinois.edu>dancraw@uillinois.edu ; <A
href="mailto:jekelley@uiuc.edu" title=jekelley@uiuc.edu>jekelley@uiuc.edu

Cc: <A href="mailto:THodson@aol.com"
title=THodson@aol.com>THodson@aol.com
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:57
PM
Subject: Re: "Kilns for Char" project,
incl. funding

The Champaign West Rotary Club
International Committee has advanced this project to the club board for
consideration as our international project. I have several questions.
1. Will it be possible for Champaign West to participate in this
project in some way more than simply sending money? Is there some
administrative or other function we can play?

The project would be implemented
in India. We have adequate manpower for field work as well as for
accounts keeping.  If you have a member who visits India often, or
depute somebody from an Indian Club, and if he could visit this area once or
twice in a year, he can survey the project in the field, interview the
beneficiaries, and report the actual progress to you. A third party
evaluation would also help us. 2. Is there someone in our
district who could speak to our club about this project in the next few weeks?

Fuel experts had traditionally
always thought of gasifying light biomass and of using the producer gas as a
fuel. But the producer gas has to be used in situ as it cannot be
trasported. Briquetting light biomass directly by applying compression
requires too much energy, because the light biomass is generally very springy
and elastic. Secondly, such briquettes burn exactly like wood, producing smoke
and soot. The idea of charring light biomass and briquetting it for being used
as fuel, is new. The particular process, called the oven and retort
system, was based on a suggestion received by us from Prof. Dr. Yuri Yudkevich
of St. Petersberg, Russia, and I think that we were the first ones to make use
of this system in India. Therefore, I do not think that there would be
many in the USA who would even have heard of it. There is an internet
discussion group called <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org>. The group
moderator, Dr. Ronal Larson, has seen our charcoaling kiln in
operation. Dr. Paul Anderson has not seen our process with his
own eyes, but he should have a good idea of the system. Many other stove
workers in the USA belong to this group but I do not know their addresses. I
am asking Dr. Larson, if he can think of somebody who may be in your vicinity
and who would know enough of this process and the system to give a
presentation to your club. 3. At this point, who else looking at
participating in this project, and what is the nature of their commitment?

There is a funding agency in
India, called "Council for Advancement of People's Action and Rural
Technology" (CAPART), operating under the Ministry of Rural Development,
Government of India. CAPART has sanctioned to us a grant of Rs. 350,000
(about U.S.$7000) to operate 10 such kilns, as a pilot project in our area of
operation . We have already trained young unemployed rural youth in the
process and as soon as the CAPART funds are received, we shall provide the
youngsters with one set each of the kiln and an extruder. Under the
CAPART scheme, the kilns and the extruder would be given to the operators
as a gift. CAPART has provided in their grant one year's salary
and travelling expenses of one of our staff members, who would act as the
fairy godmother to the char makers. The CAPART project would serve
mainly as a demonstration of the technology. Based on the outcome of the
project, CAPART would then advocate this system in other parts of India.

We had also sent this scheme to the Ashden
Trust of U.K. for the Ashden Award.  The Ashden Trust is one of the
Sainsbury Family Charitable Trusts and was established in 1989. It has
been funding environmental and sustainable development projects - both in the
UK and in the developing countries- for the last 10 years.  Just a
few days ago, we received some queries from the Ashden Trust about our system
and its operation in the field. This shows that we are still in the
running.

After review the proposal, I have
a few more techinical questions.1. Once the "trash" gains value,
is it realistic for it to remain available for free?

If the sugarcane farmers
themselves convert the trash into fuel briquettes, the trash would
be free of cost to them. Currently, it is looked upon as a nuisance and
burnt in situ. But if the sugarcane farmers see that somebody is earning
money by using the product, they would certainly ask to be paid for the trash
by the charring kiln operators. The free market forces would determine
the price. However sugarcane trash is not the only raw material that
might be used in this process. All agricultural crop species produce
waste which amounts to almost twice the weight of the grrain produced by them.
Wheat straw, maize stalks, rice straw,stalks of cotton, pigeonpea, okra,
safflower, mustard and many other types of agrowaste are candidate raw
materials for this process. The rural youths, who would be participating in
this scheme are expected to have some family land of their own, and they
should be able to get at least some raw material for free from their own
farmsteads.How serious is the lower BTU output as determined by the
test? Does this impact the projects viability as a domestic fuel
source?

No, this would not.
The BTU of the char briquettes is slightly more than that of wood, but they
burn more cleanly than wood, without producing any smoke or soot. The char
briquettes do not produce any flame, they just glow, and therefore a different
type of stove has to be used in conjuntion with char briquettes. The
stove and cooker system designed by us has an efficiency of almost 70%, which
is more than the conventional kerosene or gas stoves. Using our system, a
family of 5 can cook one meal consisting of rice, vegetables, meat or beans
with just 100 grams of briquettes. This is cheaper than any other fuel or any
other system of cooking. Char briquettes represent a new product and it would
be judged by the users on its own merits. Since wood charcoal is not
legally available in the market, our briquettes would not be compared by
the users with wood charcoal.   Mineral coal is not readily
available in Maharashtra as coal is produced in Bihar, in the Eastern part of
the country, and Maharashtra is in the Western part of the country. The
overland transport is so costly, that mineral coal is used only by the
industries and is not sold on the retail market as a household fuel for the
common man. Briquettes made from mineral coal dust are available in the
market, but the coal dust briquettes are a very inferior material,
made from the cheapest, high sulphur coal, and mixed
with clay.   3. I am concerned about the
lack of planning for the extrusion of the briquettes. I understand the
char may have some industrial value without turning it into briquettes.
However, it would seem that making the product available for domestic
use is desirable if the project is to benefit more that the producers, and is
to have a positive environmental impact. (I have some knowledge of
a firm that produces extruders-extractors for small scale extraction of oil
from oil seeds, including applications in developing countries. Would a
contact with this company be helpful for you, or do you have other ideas for
extrusion equipment?)

There are several companies in
India, that make extruders. The prototype being used by us is
fabricated by ourselves by modifying a meat mincer. It producs
cylindrical briquettes of about three fourth inch diameter. Currently we
operate it manually, but it can also be run on a fractional horsepower
electric motor. We did not pay much attention to the extrusion part of the
business, because fuel balls (or fuel cakes), made manually from a dough
containing chopped up biomass and cattle dung, are already being made and
sold by persons owning cattle. They have about three fifths the calorific
value as our briquettes.  The charred biomass would just be an
additional raw material, that would be used in the same way, but giving a
product much superior to the cattle dung cakes. In our process, we use
starch paste as a binder (but cattle dung can also be
used).

We will be discussing this
project at our board meeting on December 18. I realize all of these
questions cannot be answered by that date. Please advise as soon as you
can. Tom Hodson -- THodson@aol.com Champaign West Rotary

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Tue Dec 18 13:50:35 2001
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: The Wizard of IDD
Message-ID: <156.5eb564b.2950b866@cs.com>

Dear Alex and All:

I agree that "Inverted Downdraft Gasifier" is a confusing title if you don't
already know what a downdraft gasifier is. It reflects my thinking in 1985
when I first tried it.

I have been promoting "Tar burning, Char making" as a general category for
both conventional and inverted downdraft gasifiers. ("Char burning, Tar
making" for updraft gasifiers).

How about "Fire above, Air below" gasifier?

T'aint easy...

TOM REED

In a message dated 12/13/01 7:17:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
english@adan.kingston.net writes:

<< Dear Tom,
You are the wizard of IDD stoves. However the Inverted Down Draft
title continues to confuse. So rather than make the acronym an
anachronism, let us try for a new obfuscating name. How about the
Incrementally Descending Distillation Stove.

Alex

>>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Dec 20 15:37:01 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Paul off again with a stove in tow
Message-ID: <006a01c18931$11895420$61e80fc4@home>

Dear Stovers

Paul Anderson has once again managed to catch a plane out of South Africa
and is headed to the US of A with a production prototype stove for Tom Reed
in tow.

We worked in rushed conditions yesterday briefly burning three fuel types in
two stoves and I will post the results of that work asap.

He left me with an IDD stove of his own fabrication, some pelletized wood
and some more Moçambique Briquettes from various materials.

We had the briquette maker (man) with us from Maputo and he seemed very
impressed with the way the Basintuthu burned his briquettes (broken up to
suit the fire grate). He was able to see the stove working but not inspect
it's innards. It has preheated primary and secondary air.

I can report that the charcoaling gassifier was consuming 4 grames of fuel
per minute (net) and the Moç sawdust-charcoal-paper briquettes had an
identical burn rate in the Basintuthu Single Stove which was too slow for
our needs. The square New Dawn paper-sawdust briquettes, with no holes in
them for a change, burned up to 24 grammes per minute when given full air
but more typically 12-20 gm/min.

I have in the meantime acquired a digital scale capable of holding the
entire stove/pot/fuel load so we can watch the mass change as time passes.
We were able to use this. The total mass of the loaded stove during a test
is 10-11 Kg.

Some things are clear from the test burns:

1) The gasifier stove (IDD) requires a fuel which is unobtainable in this
region. It worked well at the relatively low power that it has. It burned
very cleanly once we got it smoking and burning properly, though it took a
long ime to get the fuel hot enough to 'charcoal'. More than 30 minutes
actually. The place is humid and the fuel seemed to be suffering from that.
Air drying briquettes this month has been difficult. The American fuel is
very consistent.

2) The Moç briquettes are well compacted and strong - highly transportable.
They would not work (ignite) in the round grate of the Basintuthu when there
was no air passage around them. We broke them up and they worked well
albeit with a pretty low power output. I have some more sample briquettes
from them without charcoal and I will give some a try in the coming week. I
suspect they could use more sawdust and less paper.

3) There was no discernable difference between the New Dawn briquettes
without holes and with in terms of lighting ease and burning
characteristics. Perhaps some difference will show up on the scale which
can show 2 gm changes in the total mass. I expected a slightly slower burn
because of the lower surface area.

4) At a fuel consumption of 12-16 gm / min the Basintuthu was (apparently)
boiling off about 100cc of water per minute at 98 deg C. I thought this was
unexpectedly high.

More later...

Regards
Crispin

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Dec 24 04:23:23 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Three Fuels in Two Stoves 19-Dec-2001
Message-ID: <001501c18bf7$83fc0840$75e80fc4@home>

Dear Stovers

Here is the warts and all test results, full of interpolations
and estimates and doing the best I can with a limited test length. These
were all done with Paul Anderson present who operated the IDD
Stove.

The test basically proceeded by heating up the same pot in one
test after the other, eventually boiling off some water.

All the fires were allowed to settle down before putting the
pot on.

I have used 15 MJ/Kg as the heat content of sawdust-paper
and pelletized wood, and 25 MJ/Kg for the charcoal-containing briquette
from Moçambique.

When the third test started having the water boil, I used the
average fuel consumption to that point (16 gm/min) as the estimated continued
fuel use.

Regards
Crispin

Three Stove Tests

Printed

Pot Mass without water

620

23/12/01

Pot Mass with water

3620

Water mass

3000

Weather conditions were humid and overcast with rain
threatening

Briquette and pelletized wood moisture content estimated at
15%+

TEST 1

Small IDD gassifier stove made by Paul
Anderson

Burning a small amount of pelletized wood, approx 150
gm

The pot was sitting on top of the stove without any
shroud

Drop in

Water

KJ Power

KJ Work

Minute

Mass

Temp

Comments

Produced

Done

Efficiency

0

0

29

Fire going well at the start of the test, scale
zeroed

0

1

-2

31

Zero visible smoke

30

25.2

84.00%

2

-3

32

15

12.6

84.00%

3

-8

33

75

12.6

16.80%

4

-12

34

60

12.6

21.00%

5

-16

35

60

12.6

21.00%

6

-22

36

90

12.6

14.00%

7

-26

36

60

0

0.00%

8

-30

37

60

12.6

21.00%

9

-35

38

75

12.6

16.80%

10

-42

39

105

12.6

12.00%

11

-44

39

30

0

0.00%

12

-50

40

90

12.6

14.00%

13

-52

41

30

12.6

42.00%

14

-58

42

90

12.6

14.00%

15

-60

43

30

12.6

42.00%

16

Average

60

11.76

26.84%

17

Flame out - big smoke

Test 2

Basintuthu Single Pot Stove with pre-heated primary and
secondary air

Heat in Briquette KJ/Kg

Burning a sawdust-paper-charcoal dust briquette from Moç,
broken up to the size of a large charcoal briquette

20000

The pot was sitting in the top of the stove surrounded by a
shroud

Drop in

Water

KJ Power

KJ Work

Minute

Mass

Temp

Comments

Produced

Done

Efficiency

0

0

42

Fire going well at the start of the test, scale
zeroed

0

1

-4

46

Zero visible smoke

80

50.4

63.00%

2

-6

47

40

12.6

31.50%

3

-10

50

80

37.8

47.25%

4

-14

53

80

37.8

47.25%

5

-18

54

80

12.6

15.75%

6

-20

57

40

37.8

94.50%

7

-24

58

80

12.6

15.75%

8

-26

60

40

25.2

63.00%

9

-28

61

40

12.6

31.50%

10

Average >>

62

26.6

45.50%

11

Test 3

Basintuthu Single Pot Stove with pre-heated primary and
secondary air

Burning 4 New Dawn style square sawdust and newspaper
briquettes total mass 192 gm

The pot was sitting in the top of the stove surrounded by a
shroud

Drop in

Water

KJ Power

KJ Work

Minute

Mass

Temp

Comments

Produced

Done

Efficiency

0

0

53

Fire going well at the start of the test, scale
zeroed

0

1

-12

57

Small traces of smoke

180

50.4

28.00%

2

-30

67

Small traces of smoke

270

126

46.67%

3

-48

76

Small traces of smoke

270

113.4

42.00%

4

-64

83

Small traces of smoke

240

88.2

36.75%

4:30

-70

85

Turned down air 60%

90

25.2

28.00%

5

-76

87

90

25.2

28.00%

6

-90

92

210

63

30.00%

KJ

7

-108

94

270

25.2

9.33%

Fuel burned

Water lost

Steam Heat

8

-128

97

240

46.84

19.52%

16

4

9.04

8:30

-157

98

Full rolling boil

240

41.98

17.49%

16

13

29.38

9

-188

98

240

33.9

14.13%

16

15

33.9

10

-292

98

Stored heat is starting to be drawn from the
grate

240

198.88

82.87%

16

88

198.88

11:30

-442

98

Stored heat is being drawn from the grate

240

302.84

126.18%

16

134

302.84

12

-556

98

Stored heat is being drawn from the grate

240

221.48

92.28%

16

98

221.48

13

-628

98

Fuel almost completely burned

240

126.56

52.73%

16

56

126.56

14

-666

98

Lifted pot from stove to see the fire

Average>>

220

99.272

43.60%

<< Average

15

Flame temperature on briquette = 625 deg C

16

Secondary air entering fire 80mm below top of grate = 280
deg C

17

Closed air supply completely, Secondary air = 303 deg
C

Flame temperature in the coals = 450 deg C

ANALYSIS OF TEST
3

Fuel consumption between minutes 4 and 8 stabilizes at an
average 16 gm/minute

Water loss through evaporation is

Minute

Mass

H2O Net loss

4

-64

0

Air turned down significantly

5

-76

-4

6

-90

-2

7

-108

2

8

-128

4

9

-188

44

Boiling

10

-292

88

11

-419

111

Estimate

12

-556

121

Fuel almost completely burned just as the evaporation
maxmizes

13

-628

56

<14

-666

22

Gm

KJ

OVERALL PEFORMANCE

224

3360000

Total fuel burned including a little
kindling

567

Heat in heated water 53-98 deg

442

998920

Total water boiled

999487

Total heat delivered

29.75%

Net system efficiency

Gm

KJ

PERFORMANCE DURING THE MIDDLE 75% OF THE
TEST

160

2400000

Total fuel burned including a little
kindling

391

Heat in heated water 67-98 deg

364

822640

Total water boiled

823031

Total heat delivered

34.29%

Net system efficiency during the middle 75%

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Mon Dec 24 05:36:12 2001
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yudkevich Yury)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Email Forms of Address...
In-Reply-To: <176.10ea2f3.29531f6c@cs.com>
Message-ID: <002801c18c67$06081e40$673fefc3@a1g0h5>

Dear friends and colleague,
I hope, that this reference the exactest of all possible.
Dear friends and colleague,
I believe, that the 2002 will be successful and happy for all of you.
Let God keeps you
Yury (Russia)
----- Original Message -----
From: <Reedtb2@cs.com>
To: <gasification@crest.org>; <bioenergy@crest.org>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:03 PM
Subject: Email Forms of Address...

> Dear All:
>
> With EMAIL we need a new form of address. "Dear All" is presumably a
> better address than "Dear Y'all:" or "Dear Sirs and Madams:". Please give
> this some consideration and help me find a better form.
>
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS and BEF GASWORKS
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Dec 24 05:59:25 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Well, I can't interpret what I got back
Message-ID: <003d01c18c05$07964be0$75e80fc4@home>

Dear Stovers

I am not actually subscribed to the stoves list, I only get the Stoves
Digest. There must be another list that people are connected to where you
get the individual messages with attachments and formatting because people
refer to that.

Everything that I receive is in plain text and all formatting is lost.

I just sent in the stove test report which was pasted into an email in an
HTML format. What I got back was unuseable. I don't know if anyone else
will receive a useful layout.

I copied out the html bits of what was in the Stove Digest and pasted that
into a text file and opened that with IE5. I it was formatted reasonably
but certainly hard to read.

How does one send in a spreadsheet-sourced message to this group?

Regards
Crispin

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Dec 24 11:51:50 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Well, I can't interpret what I got back - Posting to List
In-Reply-To: <003d01c18c05$07964be0$75e80fc4@home>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011224080533.012fb9e8@mail.teleport.com>

Crispin,

Your html file came to me as one of the list moderators, even the HTML file
was disjointed. Send it to me at tmiles@trmiles.com and Alex English at
english@adan.kingston.net and we will post it on the Stoves web page.
(We're in the process of migrating the Stoves pages, which Alex has
maintained, to the CREST server.)

We don't encourage posting files to the list. That's one way we can
minimize viruses and not penalize folks with limited bandwidth. This list,
in particular has some subscribers with slow connections.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Happy Holidays

Tom Miles
Bioenergy Lists Administrator

At 11:44 PM 12/23/2001 +0200, Crispin wrote:
>Dear Stovers
>
>I am not actually subscribed to the stoves list, I only get the Stoves
>Digest. There must be another list that people are connected to where you
>get the individual messages with attachments and formatting because people
>refer to that.
>
>Everything that I receive is in plain text and all formatting is lost.
>
>I just sent in the stove test report which was pasted into an email in an
>HTML format. What I got back was unuseable. I don't know if anyone else
>will receive a useful layout.
>
>I copied out the html bits of what was in the Stove Digest and pasted that
>into a text file and opened that with IE5. I it was formatted reasonably
>but certainly hard to read.
>
>How does one send in a spreadsheet-sourced message to this group?
>
>Regards
>Crispin
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
>Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.bioenergy2002.org
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Dec 24 12:24:13 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Email Forms of Address...
In-Reply-To: <176.10ea2f3.29531f6c@cs.com>
Message-ID: <001601c18ca0$173e4f20$f3f66641@computer>

Dear Yury (cc other friends and colleagues):

Thanks for your kind thoughts -and I am sure all stovers wish each other
the same. I agree that 2002 should be a good year.

It was wonderful meeting you and others in Pune, India 13 months ago.
Let us hope this next year allows us all to have other chances to meet again
in person.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Yudkevich Yury <woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru>
To: <Reedtb2@cs.com>
Cc: stoves <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: Email Forms of Address...

> Dear friends and colleague,
> I hope, that this reference the exactest of all possible.
> Dear friends and colleague,
> I believe, that the 2002 will be successful and happy for all of you.
> Let God keeps you
> Yury (Russia)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Reedtb2@cs.com>
> To: <gasification@crest.org>; <bioenergy@crest.org>; <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:03 PM
> Subject: Email Forms of Address...
>
>
> > Dear All:
> >
> > With EMAIL we need a new form of address. "Dear All" is presumably
a
> > better address than "Dear Y'all:" or "Dear Sirs and Madams:". Please
give
> > this some consideration and help me find a better form.
> >
> >
> > Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS and BEF GASWORKS
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >
> >
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Dec 24 14:02:22 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Well, I can't interpret what I got back - Posting to List
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011224080533.012fb9e8@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <00a201c18cad$c5c46d60$f3f66641@computer>

Let me add a bit more to this "saga".

1. I like all of Tom Miles answers. We all owe a big thanks to Tom for his
thankless task to keep us up and operating.

2. We have only about 10 persons listed as subscribers to "stoves-digest",
while about 225 of us are subscribers to
"stoves. I am one of the few people getting both - done hoping to be able
to spot problems as a list coordinator, and hoping to find things more
easily. However, I almost never read the "digest" version of events - and I
presume most "stoves" readers will not understand the issue raised by
Crispin.

3. The "stoves-digest" members get many fewer messages per week. But this
is a case where the value of the "digest" is negative. "Digest" members got
nothing useful - whereas Crispin's very helpful material came through
perfectly to all of us on "stoves". Hopefully something can be done by
"CREST" to solve this formatting problem for "digest" subscribers (Tom?).

4. To everyone, I recommend also the web location that Tom mentioned, which
further specifying for Crispin's message (the 76th this month) is:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200112/msg00076.html
- and you will see that the formatting seems perfect there also.

5. My recommendations for Crispin and others on the "digest" - is to be
prepared to go to the web-site to see a good version - or to switch over to
"stoves" - at least until the "digest" problem is fixed.

6. ps. I am surprised that Crispin was able to post to "stoves". In the
past, "digest" members only got their messages sent to that short list. We
are making progress.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Miles <tmiles@trmiles.com>
To: Crispin <crispin@newdawn.sz>; Stoves <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: Well, I can't interpret what I got back - Posting to List

> Crispin,
>
> Your html file came to me as one of the list moderators, even the HTML
file
> was disjointed. Send it to me at tmiles@trmiles.com and Alex English at
> english@adan.kingston.net and we will post it on the Stoves web page.
> (We're in the process of migrating the Stoves pages, which Alex has
> maintained, to the CREST server.)
>
> We don't encourage posting files to the list. That's one way we can
> minimize viruses and not penalize folks with limited bandwidth. This
list,
> in particular has some subscribers with slow connections.
>
> Thanks for your cooperation.
>
> Happy Holidays
>
> Tom Miles
> Bioenergy Lists Administrator
>
> At 11:44 PM 12/23/2001 +0200, Crispin wrote:
> >Dear Stovers
> >
> >I am not actually subscribed to the stoves list, I only get the Stoves
> >Digest. There must be another list that people are connected to where
you
> >get the individual messages with attachments and formatting because
people
> >refer to that.
> >
> >Everything that I receive is in plain text and all formatting is lost.
> >
> >I just sent in the stove test report which was pasted into an email in an
> >HTML format. What I got back was unuseable. I don't know if anyone else
> >will receive a useful layout.
> >
> >I copied out the html bits of what was in the Stove Digest and pasted
that
> >into a text file and opened that with IE5. I it was formatted reasonably
> >but certainly hard to read.
> >
> >How does one send in a spreadsheet-sourced message to this group?
> >
> >Regards
> >Crispin
> >
> >
> >-
> >Stoves List Archives and Website:
> >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >
> >Stoves List Moderators:
> >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> >Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> >List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> >List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> >List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> >Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> >-
> >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> >http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> >
> >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
> Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
> T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
> 1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
> Portland, OR 97225 USA
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From mantal at hawaii.edu Mon Dec 24 14:25:10 2001
From: mantal at hawaii.edu (Michael J. Antal, Jr.)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: flash carbonization of biomass
Message-ID: <DKEKJFDEBAHEFLPFIOFOIENICBAA.mantal@hawaii.edu>

Dear friends: probably you recall that our fundamental research concerning
the effects of pressure on biomass pyrolysis led us to the discovery that
near-theoretical yields of carbon (charcoal) can be obtained from all sorts
of biomass with short reaction times (ca. 60 min) when pyrolysis is
conducted at elevated pressure (ca. 100 psig). Although the energy input to
our pilot plant was small, last March an engineer expressed concerns about
it to us. Consequently, we began to explore new ways of operating our
equipment in order to reduce the energy input. Not long thereafter we
learned how to deliver very small amounts of air to the reactor and burn the
combustible pyrolytic vapors while retaining a high yield of charcoal. Our
data indicates that charcoal can be produced from all sorts of biomass at
elevated pressures in near-theoretical yields with cooking times of less
than 30 min and negligible energy input. For some feedstocks a processing
time of 15 to 20 min appears to be practical. The yield of tar is
negligible. In light of the incredibly short reaction times that we now
employ, we refer to our new process as “flash carbonization”. A summary of
some of our results is now posted on the HNEI web site (see below). I
emphasize that these early results have not been optimized, and that we
expect to realize some further improvements in the fixed-carbon yield and
reductions in the reaction time in the near future. In summary, it is now
possible to convert a one ton (or a ten ton) batch of wood (or sawdust or
rice hulls or corn cobs) into high-yield charcoal with a processing time of
less than 30 min and negligible energy input.

As a result of this progress, the University of Hawaii has given me a grant
to build a demonstration scale reactor that will be used to convert the
University’s green wastes into marketable charcoal. Here in Hawaii the
markets for charcoal include potting media for orchids and ornamental
plants, barbeque charcoal for our restaurants, and charcoal as a clean
renewable substitute for imported coal. The capital cost of the
demonstration reactor will be less than $50,000. The capital cost of a
commercial reactor that produces ca. 50 tons per day of charcoal should not
exceed $100,000.

I will give our first technical presentation on this work at the ThermoNet
meeting in Graz on 10 January. Consequently, I will be away from my office
until mid-January. I expect that we will publish these findings in about
six months. When this occurs, I will post a summary on the HNEI web site.

Thanks for your interest. I give you my best wishes for the holidays.

Michael J. Antal, Jr.
Coral Industries Distinguished Professor of Renewable Energy Resources
Hawaii Natural Energy Institute
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Honolulu, HI 96822

Phone: 808/956-7267
Fax: 808/956-2336
http://www.soest.hawaii.edu./HNEI/

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Antal, Jr.;Michael;Jerry;Professor
FN:Michael Jerry Antal, Jr.
NICKNAME:Michael
ORG:University of Hawaii;Hawaii Natural Energy Institute
TITLE:Coral Industries Distinguished Professor
TEL;WORK;VOICE:808-956-7267
TEL;WORK;FAX:808-956-2336
ADR;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;Holmes Hall 305=0D=0A2540 Dole St.=0D=0A;Honolulu;HI;96822;USA
LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:Holmes Hall 305=0D=0A2540 Dole St.=0D=0A=0D=0AHonolulu, HI 96822=0D=0AUSA
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:mantal@hawaii.edu
REV:20010828T190608Z
END:VCARD

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Dec 24 16:29:23 2001
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Well, I can't interpret what I got back - Posting to List
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011224080533.012fb9e8@mail.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011224131344.012fc388@mail.teleport.com>

Ron,

Thank you for pointing out the archived copy of Crispin's message. Damian
Kostiuk is now the Research & Communications Specialist for the Renewable
Energy Policy Project who is handling the technical management of the
bioenergy lists. I'm sure that Damian would like to edit the html version
of Crispin's message so that the table is readable on the archives. He is
reading in copy and no doubt will have time while he is bored on Christmas
day. :-)

We are preparing the capability of posting items like this (e.g. data,
graphics, electronic preprints of articles for review) directly to the
REPP/CREST site. That way individuals can download or read them without
suffocating their internet pipes.

Meanwhile it's all done with kindness.

Peace and Joy

Tom

At 12:04 PM 12/24/2001 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
>Let me add a bit more to this "saga".
>
>1. I like all of Tom Miles answers. We all owe a big thanks to Tom for his
>thankless task to keep us up and operating.
>
>2. We have only about 10 persons listed as subscribers to "stoves-digest",
>while about 225 of us are subscribers to
>"stoves. I am one of the few people getting both - done hoping to be able
>to spot problems as a list coordinator, and hoping to find things more
>easily. However, I almost never read the "digest" version of events - and I
>presume most "stoves" readers will not understand the issue raised by
>Crispin.
>
>3. The "stoves-digest" members get many fewer messages per week. But this
>is a case where the value of the "digest" is negative. "Digest" members got
>nothing useful - whereas Crispin's very helpful material came through
>perfectly to all of us on "stoves". Hopefully something can be done by
>"CREST" to solve this formatting problem for "digest" subscribers (Tom?).
>
>4. To everyone, I recommend also the web location that Tom mentioned, which
>further specifying for Crispin's message (the 76th this month) is:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200112/msg00076.html
>- and you will see that the formatting seems perfect there also.
>
>5. My recommendations for Crispin and others on the "digest" - is to be
>prepared to go to the web-site to see a good version - or to switch over to
>"stoves" - at least until the "digest" problem is fixed.
>
>6. ps. I am surprised that Crispin was able to post to "stoves". In the
>past, "digest" members only got their messages sent to that short list. We
>are making progress.
>
>Ron
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Tom Miles <tmiles@trmiles.com>
>To: Crispin <crispin@newdawn.sz>; Stoves <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 9:12 AM
>Subject: Re: Well, I can't interpret what I got back - Posting to List
>
>
> > Crispin,
> >
> > Your html file came to me as one of the list moderators, even the HTML
>file
> > was disjointed. Send it to me at tmiles@trmiles.com and Alex English at
> > english@adan.kingston.net and we will post it on the Stoves web page.
> > (We're in the process of migrating the Stoves pages, which Alex has
> > maintained, to the CREST server.)
> >
> > We don't encourage posting files to the list. That's one way we can
> > minimize viruses and not penalize folks with limited bandwidth. This
>list,
> > in particular has some subscribers with slow connections.
> >
> > Thanks for your cooperation.
> >
> > Happy Holidays
> >
> > Tom Miles
> > Bioenergy Lists Administrator
> >
> > At 11:44 PM 12/23/2001 +0200, Crispin wrote:
> > >Dear Stovers
> > >
> > >I am not actually subscribed to the stoves list, I only get the Stoves
> > >Digest. There must be another list that people are connected to where
>you
> > >get the individual messages with attachments and formatting because
>people
> > >refer to that.
> > >
> > >Everything that I receive is in plain text and all formatting is lost.
> > >
> > >I just sent in the stove test report which was pasted into an email in an
> > >HTML format. What I got back was unuseable. I don't know if anyone else
> > >will receive a useful layout.
> > >
> > >I copied out the html bits of what was in the Stove Digest and pasted
>that
> > >into a text file and opened that with IE5. I it was formatted reasonably
> > >but certainly hard to read.
> > >
> > >How does one send in a spreadsheet-sourced message to this group?
> > >
> > >Regards
> > >Crispin
> > >
> > >
> > >-
> > >Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> > >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> > >
> > >Stoves List Moderators:
> > >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > >Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> > >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> > >
> > >List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > >List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > >List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > >
> > >Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > >-
> > >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > >http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > >http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> > >
> > >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > >http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >
> > Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
> > T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
> > 1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
> > Portland, OR 97225 USA
> >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
> >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> > http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
> >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
> >
> >
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
>Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.bioenergy2002.org
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
>http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Dec 24 18:03:46 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Well, I can't interpret what I got back - Posting to List
Message-ID: <001101c18c6a$3737a460$6fe80fc4@home>

Dear Tom and Ron and All

I didn't think a cheesy test like that was worthy of being put up on
someone's archives. We have far better tests than that to look at. The
thing for us that was new was being able to correlate the mass of fuel
consumption with the temperature rise in the water and the estimated
(actually, calculated) evaporation of water. We were very rushed - Paul and
friends arrived very late from Moçambique because of transport problems.

We did not, for instance:
- weigh the pot without the water in it, which I can still do to confirm the
water mass;
- nor establish the moisture content of the briquettes, but it has been very
humid and Paul had trouble getting the damp pellets to light up;
- nor weigh accurately the actual amount of fuel in the grate when the test
started (which was important in that the Basintuthu ran out of fuel not long
after the evaporation really got going);
- nor get anything like a reasonable estimate of the heat content of the Moç
briquettes - I had to guess;
- nor in fact do we have an accurate figure for the pine sawdust+newspaper
New Dawn briquettes;
- nor could I include the classy charts that I have on the spreadsheet
showing the lines of heat and fuel consumption.

I can offer these to anyone who can read a Quattro Pro 8 file sent direct
and I can clumsily export an Excel 5 which loses a number of things QPro
does. Then you could check my calcs too.

Tom wrote
>We are preparing the capability of posting items like this (e.g. data,
>graphics, electronic preprints of articles for review) directly to the
>REPP/CREST site.

This is a good idea and we can agree on a format for it. HTML composed in an
email will allow the placing of graphics in the text but not beside text,
only sequentially. Still, it makes it possible to make a bitmap of the
charts and paste them into a standard email so you can see the curves. I
found them revealing and I encourage you all to plot the numbers. I tried
to do some 'conclusions' from them so it would be apparent there is
something significant going on without the charts.

I am going to build two more stoves with slightly different paths for the
primary air to see if the cheapie method will work as well. I can eliminate
one part if it does. More to follow on this.

I apologize for not describing exactly how the latest stove works; I know
everyone is interested. This omission is deliberate. The sketch on the
website is misleading.

I have sent one stove (a production prototype) home with Paul to Dr Tom and
await his comments. I believe he can test the gas omissions. I am very
interested in the CO emissions at full open and fully closed air supply.

One thing I can concluded with certainty is that the square briquettes with
no holes in them are slightly slower drying, but burn just as well. In fact
they may burn better because they do not 'charcoal' so quickly if the air is
turned down due to a lower total surface area. That effect is propelled by
the stored heat in the 3mm thick grate which runs up the primary and
secondary air temperatures, inadvertently producing a gassifying stove. So
much is produced that the flames are leaping a foot above the top of the pot
in some tests. I have night pics. This is a terrible waste of heat and the
best thing to do to turn it down in limit the fuel content. As it is
fuelled relatively frequently, this is not difficult to achieve.

The Basintuthu can be made into a IDD stove by putting in the pelletized
wood as a fuel, provided that a reasonably well-fitted solid disc of steel
is placed at the bottom of the grate, and a wrapped-inside cylinder (a large
soup can will do) sitting on it. The fuel is placed inside the can (with a
couple of small holes in the bottom) and top lit as usual. This all takes
place in the bottom 1/3 of the cylindrical grate. The smoke rising from the
charcoaling pellets will burn in the upper part of the grate with pre-heated
secondary air. The vertical height to do this is quite a bit less than the
one we tested from Paul.

I have pictures of the IDD stove Paul brought taken during the actual test
with the pot on top of a paint can on top of the gas unit, and 2 pics of the
(very clean) fire burning inside it. These could be posted somewhere.

Have a hunky dory Christmas!
Crispin in the tropical thunderstorms of Swaziland

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From CAVM at aol.com Mon Dec 24 18:45:39 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Briquettes of beef manure
Message-ID: <5a.3f0807a.2959181c@aol.com>

I visited Baylor Univ in Waco, TX last week. Dr. Robert Farmer showed me some very nice briquettes made from pressed beef or dairy manure. He said that they were made very economically in a simple rotary press. They burned cleanly and efficiently with little ash and moderate (9000) BTU.

We are going to cooperate on a project to dispose of the huge quantities of beef and dairy manure generated in the area of the watershed which serves Waco's water supply. The briquettes are one option for us. Of course the market for briquettes such as this may be limited in the USA. I would think their value in 3rd world countries would be high though.

We will probably set up ponds to produce algae from the nutrient rich waste water from the farms. The dry manure from these same farms will be burned in direct combustion district heating and cooling systems.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.
CAVM@AOL.com

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Dec 24 20:08:09 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Briquettes of beef manure
In-Reply-To: <5a.3f0807a.2959181c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000201c18ce3$c06b3200$7882c7cb@vsnl.net.in>

Dear Corneleus,
The dung cakes that are used as fuel in rural
India are made manually from a mixture of fresh dung and agricultural
waste such as stover of cereal crops. They possess a calorific value of
about 2600 Kcal per kg. Your message mentions beef manure. As I
understand it, manure is a product that one gets after dung and other waste
matter on the farmstead is fermented, generally under anaerobic
conditions. The carbon content (that is the combustible matter) of cattle
dung is lower than that of biomass consumed by the cattle, and that of manure
would be even less. Our manually produced dung cakes generally do not produce a
flame. They smolder. They also have a high ash content. How do your
briquettes burn? Do they produce a flame or do they glow like charcoal? Would
your product be comparable to peat or lignite
briquettes? Have you thought of producing biogas from cattle dung? If the
carbondioxide can be removed from biogas, the pure methane remaining behind is
equivalent to natural gas in its calorific value and burning properties. The
slurry left behind after biogas fermentation can go back to the soil as manure.
Therefore biogas is environmentally the cleanest option of converting cattle
dung into fuel, however it is difficult to transport, whereas briquettes can be
easily transported.
A.D.Karve

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
CAVM@aol.com
To: <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 5:15
AM
Subject: Briquettes of beef manure
I visited Baylor Univ
in Waco, TX last week. Dr. Robert Farmer showed me some very nice
briquettes made from pressed beef or dairy manure. He said that they
were made very economically in a simple rotary press. They burned
cleanly and efficiently with little ash and moderate (9000) BTU. We
are going to cooperate on a project to dispose of the huge quantities of beef
and dairy manure generated in the area of the watershed which serves Waco's
water supply. The briquettes are one option for us. Of course the
market for briquettes such as this may be limited in the USA. I would
think their value in 3rd world countries would be high though. We will
probably set up ponds to produce algae from the nutrient rich waste water from
the farms. The dry manure from these same farms will be burned in direct
combustion district heating and cooling systems. Cornelius A. Van
Milligen Kentucky Enrichment Inc. CAVM@AOL.com

From CAVM at aol.com Mon Dec 24 21:30:57 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:29 2004
Subject: Briquettes of beef manure
Message-ID: <9c.1867d7e3.29593ec7@aol.com>

Dr. Karve,

(Keep in mind that I am an accountant, not an engineer.) Dr. Robert Farmer of Baylor Univ showed me the briquettes which he had made as part of a demonstration. I was very impressed with the quality of the briquettes. Dr. Farmer tells me that the BTU value was higher than the locally produced coal and the ash was very low.

I have not worked with briquettes but I have worked with anaerobic digestion. These briquettes were made from dried cattle manure (dung) as I understand it. With anaerobic digesters we recommend a separator precede the digester to remove some of the solids. A fixed film digester after the separator is usually a good investment if the local electric rates justify its cost. If not, the liquid can be cleaned for reuse as wash water for the manure in the milking areas and feeding pens.

Dr. Farmer also has a technique for growing and processing algae in the liquid fraction of the waste. This would supplement the protein found in the other feed ingredients for cattle, hogs or poultry. Besides the protein feed ingredient the algae go a long way in polishing the effluent. I think that Dr. farmer also has recommendations regarding the use of the algae as fuel instead of feed, if desired.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.
Ag Project Managers
CAVM@AOL.com

adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in writes:

From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Dec 26 01:08:30 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: flash carbonization of biomass
In-Reply-To: <DKEKJFDEBAHEFLPFIOFOIENICBAA.mantal@hawaii.edu>
Message-ID: <00e701c18dd3$feb6e720$16f86641@computer>

Michael (cc stoves)

I looked at your site
(http://www.soest.hawaii.edu./HNEI/R3proj.html#Anchor-High-Yield-47747) and
found a little more than in your note. Thanks for sending us this
information and congratulations at finding a fast new means of pyrolysis. I
am afraid I still haven't understood the process - and I understand the need
for doing more development work - and for protecting patents, etc. I am
sure we all wish you great success for pursuing your new, higher pressure,
lower energy approach - and of hearing more as you make further progress.

However, I presume that your announcing this does allow you also to
suggest whether there is a possible small-scale approach possible for
home-based simple cook-stoves. Higher pressure would usually equate to
higher cost, but perhaps not. Certainly producing large amounts of
charcoal quickly should eventually suggest also lower cost charcoal
briquettes for home use. But I am also asking whether you think charcoal
making stoves (two outputs: cooking and charcoal) are possible that employ
your new discoveries? Are there fundamental reasons to recommend persons on
this list interested in small cook-stoves to stay away from high-pressure
approaches ? (I am thinking of something like a pressure cooker - which is
not an outrageous complexity or price.) You still must have a good bit of
"waste" energy. Do you think it is still possible to use that for rural
bakeries, brick kilns, etc?

Thanks in advance for any insights on the possible applicability of your
exciting announcement to very small scales.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael J. Antal, Jr. <mantal@hawaii.edu>
To: Stoves@Crest. Org <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 12:25 PM
Subject: flash carbonization of biomass

> Dear friends: probably you recall that our fundamental research concerning
> the effects of pressure on biomass pyrolysis led us to the discovery that
> near-theoretical yields of carbon (charcoal) can be obtained from all
sorts
> of biomass with short reaction times (ca. 60 min) when pyrolysis is
> conducted at elevated pressure (ca. 100 psig). Although the energy input
to
> our pilot plant was small, last March an engineer expressed concerns about
> it to us. Consequently, we began to explore new ways of operating our
> equipment in order to reduce the energy input. Not long thereafter we
> learned how to deliver very small amounts of air to the reactor and burn
the
> combustible pyrolytic vapors while retaining a high yield of charcoal.
Our
> data indicates that charcoal can be produced from all sorts of biomass at
> elevated pressures in near-theoretical yields with cooking times of less
> than 30 min and negligible energy input. For some feedstocks a processing
> time of 15 to 20 min appears to be practical. The yield of tar is
> negligible. In light of the incredibly short reaction times that we now
> employ, we refer to our new process as "flash carbonization". A summary
of
> some of our results is now posted on the HNEI web site (see below). I
> emphasize that these early results have not been optimized, and that we
> expect to realize some further improvements in the fixed-carbon yield and
> reductions in the reaction time in the near future. In summary, it is now
> possible to convert a one ton (or a ten ton) batch of wood (or sawdust or
> rice hulls or corn cobs) into high-yield charcoal with a processing time
of
> less than 30 min and negligible energy input.
>
> As a result of this progress, the University of Hawaii has given me a
grant
> to build a demonstration scale reactor that will be used to convert the
> University's green wastes into marketable charcoal. Here in Hawaii the
> markets for charcoal include potting media for orchids and ornamental
> plants, barbeque charcoal for our restaurants, and charcoal as a clean
> renewable substitute for imported coal. The capital cost of the
> demonstration reactor will be less than $50,000. The capital cost of a
> commercial reactor that produces ca. 50 tons per day of charcoal should
not
> exceed $100,000.
>
> I will give our first technical presentation on this work at the ThermoNet
> meeting in Graz on 10 January. Consequently, I will be away from my
office
> until mid-January. I expect that we will publish these findings in about
> six months. When this occurs, I will post a summary on the HNEI web site.
>
> Thanks for your interest. I give you my best wishes for the holidays.
>
> Michael J. Antal, Jr.
> Coral Industries Distinguished Professor of Renewable Energy Resources
> Hawaii Natural Energy Institute
> University of Hawaii at Manoa
> Honolulu, HI 96822
>
> Phone: 808/956-7267
> Fax: 808/956-2336
> http://www.soest.hawaii.edu./HNEI/
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Wed Dec 26 06:36:55 2001
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: flash carbonization of biomass
Message-ID: <a.177cee35.295b1048@cs.com>

Dear Mike and all:

For those of you who prefer charcoal, let me recommend keeping up with Prof.
Mike Antal at U. of Hawaii. His process, using modestly high pressures (10
atm?) produces in excess of 40% charcoal while most processes are lucky to
hit 25%.

It is unfortunate that he hasn't been able to commercialize it yet. We can
hope that the U. Hawaii pilot plant will carry it forward.

Good luck to Mike...

TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS BEF GASWORKS
In a message dated 12/24/01 11:25:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mantal@hawaii.edu writes:

<<

Dear friends: probably you recall that our fundamental research concerning
the effects of pressure on biomass pyrolysis led us to the discovery that
near-theoretical yields of carbon (charcoal) can be obtained from all sorts
of biomass with short reaction times (ca. 60 min) when pyrolysis is
conducted at elevated pressure (ca. 100 psig). Although the energy input to
our pilot plant was small, last March an engineer expressed concerns about
it to us. Consequently, we began to explore new ways of operating our
equipment in order to reduce the energy input. Not long thereafter we
learned how to deliver very small amounts of air to the reactor and burn the
combustible pyrolytic vapors while retaining a high yield of charcoal. Our
data indicates that charcoal can be produced from all sorts of biomass at
elevated pressures in near-theoretical yields with cooking times of less
than 30 min and negligible energy input. For some feedstocks a processing
time of 15 to 20 min appears to be practical. The yield of tar is
negligible. In light of the incredibly short reaction times that we now
employ, we refer to our new process as â€œflash carbonizationâ€. A summary of
some of our results is now posted on the HNEI web site (see below). I
emphasize that these early results have not been optimized, and that we
expect to realize some further improvements in the fixed-carbon yield and
reductions in the reaction time in the near future. In summary, it is now
possible to convert a one ton (or a ten ton) batch of wood (or sawdust or
rice hulls or corn cobs) into high-yield charcoal with a processing time of
less than 30 min and negligible energy input.

As a result of this progress, the University of Hawaii has given me a grant
to build a demonstration scale reactor that will be used to convert the
Universityâ€™s green wastes into marketable charcoal. Here in Hawaii the
markets for charcoal include potting media for orchids and ornamental
plants, barbeque charcoal for our restaurants, and charcoal as a clean
renewable substitute for imported coal. The capital cost of the
demonstration reactor will be less than $50,000. The capital cost of a
commercial reactor that produces ca. 50 tons per day of charcoal should not
exceed $100,000.

I will give our first technical presentation on this work at the ThermoNet
meeting in Graz on 10 January. Consequently, I will be away from my office
until mid-January. I expect that we will publish these findings in about
six months. When this occurs, I will post a summary on the HNEI web site.

Thanks for your interest. I give you my best wishes for the holidays.

Michael J. Antal, Jr.
Coral Industries Distinguished Professor of Renewable Energy Resources
Hawaii Natural Energy Institute
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Honolulu, HI 968 >>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Dec 26 10:30:33 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: burning manure in Waco
In-Reply-To: <1009366614.9224.ezmlm@crest.org>
Message-ID: <003801c18dbd$3bc84300$5fe80fc4@home>

Dear Cornelius

You wrote:
"They burned cleanly and efficiently with little ash and moderate (9000)
BTU."

Could you please explain what that unit means? BTU/pound?

How many Megajoules is that per Kg?

Many thanks
Crispin the mostly metric

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From CAVM at aol.com Wed Dec 26 10:49:55 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: burning manure in Waco
Message-ID: <173.15897ac.295b4b74@aol.com>

You wrote:
"They burned cleanly and efficiently with little ash and moderate (9000)
BTU."

Could you please explain what that unit means? BTU/pound?

How many Megajoules is that per Kg?

Many thanks
Crispin the mostly metric

Hey, I am the one who preceeds most post by saying that I am an accountant not an engineer. Lets see, if we divide the speed of light with the speed of sound we find that most people look stupid even before we hear what they have said, but I digress.

I think a megajoule is 10,000 BTU, if so, a kilo being 2.2 lbs would mean that , heck I don't know. 2 mj/kg? I think I lost a decimal place somewhere. If you find it please put it back.

I have some chance of grasping metric weight, distance and volume but metric time is beyond me.

From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Dec 26 14:25:58 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: burning manure in Waco
Message-ID: <004d01c18dde$1e330200$5fe80fc4@home>

Dear Cornelius

>>Could you please explain what that unit means? BTU/pound?
>>How many Megajoules is that per Kg?

>Lets see, if we divide the speed of light with the speed of sound we
>find that most people look stupid even before we hear what they
>have said, but I digress.

>I think I lost a decimal place somewhere.

If you multiply the speed of light in Parsecs per minute by the number of
noggins in a hogshead squared and divide that by the number of megajoules of
heat required to boil a pound of water at the oceanside, multiplied by the
number of kilograms in 160 standard British stones, divided by the number of
centimetres in a mile, multiplied by the percentage purity of Ivory Soap,
you get a number known to the older engineers as 'unity' and I have NEVER
understood why!

Unity something that has always been profoundly lacking in units of measure
around the world. How could that diverse calculation give 1 as an answer?

For those who would like to attempt this calculation yourself, there are
about 31,000,000,000,000,000 metres in a parsec.

I try to keep my calculations simple because at least I know Watt a Joule
is.

Regards
Crispin

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From brunom1 at yucom.be Wed Dec 26 16:28:40 2001
From: brunom1 at yucom.be (Bruno M.)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: BTU's to Mj
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011226193755.00a4b2d0@pop3.yucom.be>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20011226/d5805a95/attachment.html
From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Dec 27 19:13:33 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Continuing on stove nomenclature and descriptions (Faemus??)
Message-ID: <00c701c18f34$c2335560$4cf86641@computer>

<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1">
Alex English’ message from Dec. 13 on the term “IDD” encouraged me
to make a stab at stove classification.
Perhaps like Alex, I have never taken to the term “IDD” – because I have
never seen a successful down-draft stove described anywhere – and because what
Tom and I have been working on is unlike the unsuccessful down-draft
stoves.
In a separate message, I will describe what I believe is
necessary to make down-draft successful (so far not backed up by experiment)
I believe it would be helpful if we noted 6 things
about any stove:1. Fuel
type (wood, charcoal, pellets,
briquettes, methanol, etc)
2. Air flow
(up-draft, down-draft, cross-draft; natural , forced)
3. Environmental controls (chimney, hood, wind-screens, pot
shields, pyrolysis, gasification, etc…)
4. Materials
(metal, brick, mud, ceramics, etc)
5. Use (cooking, heating, charcoal-making, combinations)
6. Status (home-made, village-made, factory-made,
experimental, conceptual, etc)
Together this spells “faemus” – which I don’t like very
much and I encourage others to try for something better.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> But I am able to remember “faemus” – at
least for a day.
<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1">
I also tried putting S first and U last, and changed Fuels to
Combustibles and Environment to Releases, and Materials to Production to get
“words” like “SCRAP-U”.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> Not liking this connotation, I have
decided to give the acronym problem to others.
Examples:
a.  A simple
3-stone fire becomes: “A
wood-burning, natural up-draft stove, with power control through periodic
additions of sticks but no other environmental controls, made from 3 (or more)
locally collected stones, used for cooking (and often lighting and heating) for
millennia in many countries.”
b. What I have been describing as a charcoal-making
stove (CMS) becomes: “A
batch-loaded top-lit, twig-fired, natural up-draft, using pyrolysis with a
diffusion flame controlled by primary air alone, made in villages from various
materials, used for combined cooking and charcoal-making, status - in
development in several locations”.
(I have avoided "pyrolysis" in describing
CMS stoves - as not being as understandable to potential users.)
c. Tom
Reed’s “IDD-stove” becomes “A batch-loaded, top-lit, pellet-fired stove, forced
up-draft, using gasification principles with control of both primary and
secondary air, with separate fuel and combustion chambers separated by a
fuel-air mixing region, made in factories from metals and insulation, used for
cooking (present emphasis on camping), status in development in two locations;
some being sold in Sri Lanka.
(Tom's response of Dec. 18 used the
acronym "IDG" - with new emphasis on "gasifier" that I like. I still don't
find "inverted" to be helpful or accurate as applied to previous downdraft
stoves.)
d. The
Approvecho Rocket stove becomes: A
wood-fired, bottom-lit, natural up-draft stove, using fuel supply power control
with a relatively short combustion chamber, with no other environmental
controls, made from concentric metal cylinders separated by an insulating layer,
possibly using a “pot – screen” to enhance efficiency, generally made at local
user level, now being sold in __ countries.
e. What I intend to describe in my next message as a
“down-draft charcoal making stove” is:
“A batch-loaded (with fuel additions possible), bottom lit, multi-fuel,
natural down-draft stove, using manual primary and secondary air control with
pyrolysis and a tall chimney, with heat supplied to a single large metal cooking
surface supported by insulating bricks, intended for combined cooking, heating,
and charcoal-making; status is
conceptual.
Note- I would have liked to have
said something quantitative under the letter “E” in “faemus” also about
efficiency and emissions – but don’t have any comparative numbers to
insert <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Any reactions?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> What else is important
in describing a stove?

Ron

From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Dec 28 00:37:21 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Down draft charcoal making stoves?
Message-ID: <13d401c18f61$9af17680$4cf86641@computer>

   I. Intro and
background.   This is to explore the world of down draft
stoves. So far on this list, I remember no positive remarks about a
down draft stove design. ( I do remember down-draft recommended as an
incinerator - but this is not the air-controlled design I talk about
below. Also Elsen Karstad has employed down-draft for charcoal making of
sawdust - but he is not controlling air flow directly and is not using the
waste heat.) The downdraft gasifiers used for coupling to IC engines that
I have seen developed by Tom Reed, Das and others also seem to not control
primary air separately - mainly because (I surmise) they desire to operate
continuously from a level-controlled fuel hopper.   I also came to
some of the following conclusions from my "book report" on wood-burning
pottery kilns - where air control is very important (but fuel supply also
is)

2. Eindhoven
work. Piet Verhaart did some work on down draft stoves when
at Eindhoven. His work and the report he recommended by Hassan Khan were
not encouraging. Apparently no down draft stoves of any type are now
in production or study anywhere in the world (anyone know anything
different?)

Also, Prasad said on Nov.
30.   "The question is
whether (the down draft stove) can be used as a charcoal producer as
well: without really thinking through, an off-hand answer would be -
No."
I have concluded that Prasad was
thinking of a different design - and I hope he will conclude after reading this
that a down-draft design with direct air control can produce
charcoal.

Alex recommended the Khan paper
because it had documented a "sweet spot" where emissions were lowest. The
sweet spot was the "magic" combination of fuel feed rate and chimney height
(indirect control of total air flow, not direct control of two air flows) that
gave lowest emissions. I am not sure, but think that a different set of
dynamics will hold in this stove, but a "sweet spot" could well also occur here
( a best power output level).

C. Relationship to Stove
categorization.    As I was preparing my
last message on categorizing different types of stoves, I was wondering
whether I should be dismissing the charcoal-making down draft. I have
concluded not - I now think it very possible. I have had limited agreement
from Ron West, Das, and Alex English. This note is to see how others feel - and
hopefully someone will give it a try. I will eventually, but can't see any
free time for quite a while. It would be wonderful that someone has
already done the desired test or has the equipment lying around to do some quick
testing.

D. Direct Control of air
flow..   I think the reason that Verhaart, Khan, and
Prasad did not produce charcoal was that they were only indirectly controlling
air flow. (Actually, Khan does record some circumstances with charcoal
production - but it was clearly not near the optimum operating
conditions).   The Khan design was rather like an inverted
Apprevecho "Rocket" stove - power control via fuel feed rate. There was no
separate mechanism to control air flow. All secondary air had to go
through the same fuel path as the primary or pyrolysis air - there was no
separate valving of either primary or secondary air flow. So pyrolysis
gases exiting the fuel chamber had a large excess oxygen content, unlike the
pyrolysis/gasification stoves this list has also been discussing.

E. Reference the
"Dasifier". To make a true inverse of the updraft
charcoal making stoves, one must have a tight-fitting lid on the fuel supply,
and one must keep the primary air flow through the fuel supply very
low. Then, separate secondary air must be introduced and the pyrolysis
gases thereafter combusted - possibly with premixing, or possibly with a
diffusion flame. The nearest figure I have for this was provided by Tom
Reed in introducing the "Dasifier" on November 5 (useful comments also by Andrew
Heggie on Nov. 6). You will see that Das was producing charcoal in the
upper left part of the diagram - but without the controllable top that I am
advocating. However, he was able to produce charcoal because of the
depth and density of the pellets . The exiting gas from the top container
presumably has zero or a very low oxygen content. His required secondary
air is coming from the bottom. Das agrees (I think) that secondary air
coming horizontally from the side would preclude the need for the lower chamber
if one wanted to produce charcoal - and (again, I think) would not require the
gasifying action of the lower chamber if one wished to consume the
charcoal. The difference is how much of the charcoal is exposed to the
secondary air.

F. A stove
geometry. In Tom Reed's figure of Das' gasifier, if you
think of the narrow tube as a broad flat disk shape, and ignore the lower left
gasifier portion and the injector, then you have a natural draft, charcoal
making cook (and heating) stove.   I am thinking of a snake-like flame
path that returns to a chimney near the start. Alternatively, perhaps the
chimney and fuel container should be well separated with a large temperature
difference as in the Eindhoven work.

G.
Advantages.   The advantages that I see
are:
1.  Downdraft fits
more easily with a chimney than do typical updraft designs - in fact, won't work
without a sizeable chimney. This may prove to be necessary in all
applications where the stove is used for room heating and where Indoor Air
Quality is a key decision criterion
2. Can control the excess
air ratio - and thereby achieve high temperatures and hopefully greater
efficiency.
3. Fits in well with
applications requiring a large metal cooking surface of the type Rogerio Miranda
has been producing in Nicaragua. Power output changes (turndown ratio)
should be very large and rapid (3:1 in updraft designs)
4. Could be designed with
one or more convertible drop-in pot elements (as noted by Verhaart et al) for
convective rather than conductive heat transfer to the pot.
5. The fuel supply can be
replenished when the pyrolysis front has reached the top.of the (bottom lit)
fuel container (unlike the up-draft charcoal-making designs). The fuel
supply is perhaps more handy being above the cooking surface (but maybe somewhat
more dangerous there.)
6.   Can be designed
for charcoal consumption as well as production without modifying position of
charcoal or cookpot.
7. Presumably cleaner,
more controllable, and less labor intensive than fuel-controlled stoves (and has
or could have saleable charcoal co-product).
8. Cook surface can
possibly be manufactured locally from surplus barrel ends (can conceive of
staying less than $25 with locally made chimneys.).
9. An oven is an easy
add-on (with temperature control dependent on both placement and by primary air
flow).
10. Should work well with
range of fuels - not dependent on high density fuels.
10. No particular
advantage obvious for use of forced draft. A chimney that gets outside the
house looks like it should have sufficient draft. It is not obvious that
extra draft is needed for charcoal combustion.
11. Might be able to use
with insulated cookpots that have lower side and top losses.
12. Can be coupled
with an auxiliary, heat-capturing water heater designed something like a
Samovar.

H.
Disadvantages
1. This looks inherently
more expensive than the UD version - as it requires a chimney of probably more
than one meter height and a large metal stove top (but no more expensive
than other stoves with those features, and I guess the whole thing could be made
from ceramics and tight fitting cook pots.)
2. Probably less efficient
as exit gas temperatures may be higher and the exposed metal surface areas
larger (although the cook surface can perhaps be covered when not needed by
insulating bricks.) Large exposed cooking surfaces are common (and
maybe even considered desirable) in US woodburning cook-stoves.
3. Will require user
education on handling separate primary and secondary air supplies.
4. Conceptual stage only -
problems are certain to develop. But this DD seems to be the complete
inverse analog of workable updraft controllable-air pyrolysis and gasifier
models - and is not the down draft on which others have discontinued
work . (I urge that we not call this the Inverted Up Draft or IUD design; for
non English speakers, you should know that the term "IUD" has already been
taken - it already has a well known different meaning that you should use
caution in determining.)

I welcome thoughts of all stovers. Is this
DD-AC-CM (down draft- air controlled - charcoal making) stove design worth
further exploration? Any references around to build on?

Ron

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Fri Dec 28 06:15:58 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Continuing on stove nomenclature and descriptions (Faemus??)
In-Reply-To: <00c701c18f34$c2335560$4cf86641@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011228205505.00a517f0@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 17:13 27/12/01 -0700, you wrote:

Alex English message from Dec. 13 on the term IDD encouraged me to make a
stab at stove classification. Perhaps like Alex, I have never taken
to the term IDD because I have never seen a successful down-draft stove
described anywhere and because what Tom and I have been working on is
unlike the unsuccessful down-draft stoves.
I believe I have and use a succesful downdraft stove, a barbecue. A
description and photographs I sent to Alex quite a few years ago.
The barbecue is still in use and performs to my great satisfaction. You
could say it is continuously fed, in practice at short intervals, with
one to three pieces of wood at a time. It works on natural draft by way
of a chimney and produces no smoke or smell, which I interpret as clean
combustion.
Of course, it doesn't make charcoal, only ash.
With the very best wishes for a good and happy New Year.
Piet

From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Dec 28 09:48:10 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Fw: Down draft charcoal making stoves?
Message-ID: <001501c18fae$f46ab580$c0e06641@computer>

ÿþ

Walfrido (cc. Stovers)
 
    I believe you had intended this
to be sent to all stovers and I am pleased to forward it on and to return
your greetings in kind. 
It is good to hear from you again and to hope that
you will soon give us a report on stove and fuel activities in
Cuba.
 
Ron
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: <A
href="mailto:pippo@imre.oc.uh.cu" title=pippo@imre.oc.uh.cu>Walfrido Alonso
Pippo
To: <A href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"
title=ronallarson@qwest.net>Ron Larson
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Down draft charcoal making stoves?

Dear Ron and  all Stovers
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Cuban Stover
Walfrido Alonso Pippo
<FONT
size=2>------------------------------------------------------------------Dr.
Walfrido Alonso PippoInstituto de Materiales y
Reactivos.(IMRE) Universidad de La HabanaZapata s/n esq. a G, C.P.
10400 Vedado C. Habana, CubaTelf. 705707, 707666. Fax (53-7)
794651E-mail : pippo@imre.oc.uh.cu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Dec 28 10:46:49 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Continuing on stove nomenclature and descriptions (Faemus??)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011228205505.00a517f0@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <006101c18fb7$24f7eee0$c0e06641@computer>

Peter (cc stoves):

Thanks for the correction.
I visited the stoves site maintained by Alex (<A
href="http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/DDBbq/DDB.htm">http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/DDBbq/DDB.htm)

Yours is a nice looking
unit - I only vaguely remember seeing it earlier (which is dated Feb. 7,
1999). The design is somewhat similar to what I described in my
following note of yesterday - but I like better your lower placement of the
fuel-air sources.

A few questions -

1. Can
you expand on the use of "cheat holes in the riser pipe". I can't spy
them. How large? How far up? How does their existence help
start the updraft mode?

2. Can
you tell us more about the "slide to adjust the active grate area."
Does this change the amount of air flow?   I can't figure out the
location. Is it right below the visible grate - or further down? How
far down? What range of areas are possible?

3. What
is the mechanism for removing ash?

4. In
the Khan paper, wood blocks were added at rates like two small blocks every
thirty seconds.   What is your typical fuel feed rate?
Have you calculated maximum and minimum power
levels in kW?   Is there a "sweet spot"?   Have you ever
measured CO or other emissions?

5. Is
there any insulation?   (all metal?) Any estimate of
efficiency?

6.
In the US, our barbecues are always (? - at least usually) open grates - not
solid plates like yours (which is of course needed to maintain draft). Is
it typical in other locations where you have lived to have barbecues with solid
surfaces?

7. I
can see using your design as a "griddle", but also as a "plancha-type" - with
ordinary cook pots and a maximum temperature need only of that for boiling
water. Do you have any experience or data on how the stove works that
way?

8.
How uniform is the temperature on the cooking surface?   Did you ever
(or could you) try putting a large square basting pan on the cook surface and
observe where boiling is occurring? I'd like to know the max "Figure of
Merit" (ratio of weight of water evaporated to the weight of fuel) you could
obtain (and whether this changes much with the vigor of the boil).

9. The
plate thickness of 10 mm seems a bit large. Any particular reason for that
thickness? How about side thicknesses?

10. I am wondering about your statement that it takes about 12 minutes to
settle down.   What is happening during this period? Are you
building up a layer of charcoal below the grate?

11. It
looks like your design could be readily modified to achieve power control
through air flow rather than fuel metering (which offers also the possibility of
charcoal-making). Have you ever seen such a design - and can you supply
references? Does your own work at Eindhoven exist on the web
anywhere? Published in a journal anywhere?

Again my apologies for having not remembered your
prior positive statements about your down-draft barbecue. Besides the
major advantage of getting the smoke out of one's eyes - are there any other
benefits or disadvantages we should know about?

Thanks in advance -
Ron
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A href="mailto:pverhaart@optusnet.com.au"
title=pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>Peter Verhaart
To: <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"
title=ronallarson@qwest.net>ronallarson@qwest.net
Cc: <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 4:03
AM
Subject: Re: Continuing on stove
nomenclature and descriptions (Faemus??)
At 17:13 27/12/01 -0700, you wrote:
<FONT face=arial
size=2>
Alex English message from Dec. 13 on the term IDD encouraged me to make a
stab at stove classification. Perhaps like Alex, I have never taken to
the term IDD because I have never seen a successful down-draft stove
described anywhere and because what Tom and I have been working on is unlike
the unsuccessful down-draft stoves. I believe I have
and use a succesful downdraft stove, a barbecue. A description and photographs
I sent to Alex quite a few years ago.The barbecue is still in use and
performs to my great satisfaction. You could say it is continuously fed, in
practice at short intervals, with one to three pieces of wood at a time. It
works on natural draft by way of a chimney and produces no smoke or smell,
which I interpret as clean combustion.Of course, it doesn't make charcoal,
only ash.With the very best wishes for a good and happy New
Year.Piet

From dstill at epud.net Sat Dec 29 14:24:22 2001
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Down draft stoves are grate!
Message-ID: <001001c19103$c423e260$6c15210c@default>

Dear Ron,

When you mention downdraft stoves, I see that you are thinking
more about charcoal making stoves but I wanted to mention that Larry Winiarski
has been playing with downdraft for quite a while. Aprovecho still uses the
downdraft pattern for the fuel magazine where people will use it because it is
cleaner burning and the sticks of wood are somewhat self feeding. Instead of
feeding sticks of wood into a Rocket elbow in the shape of the letter L
(sidefeed), downdraft Rocket elbows look more like the letter U, with one
shorter vertical side. Sticks are fed vertically down the shorter side of the
elbow and (in our case) are lit at the bottom. The fire is drawn up the taller
side of the U which is very well insulated. The pot sits on top of the insulated
part of the apparatus. The feed magazine is shorter than the combustion chamber
and only insulated at the bottom, which helps the flame to travel in the right
direction, toward the pot.

Rocket stoves started out using the downfeed/downdraft feed
magazine pattern because it is more efficient. Why? Because 1.) a easily
controlled amount of air is appreciably warmed as it is sucked down into the
fire and then 2.) gases pass right over the hot bed of coals cleaning up
emissions. Coals fall in front of the sticks into the flame path. Larry
published a description of downdraft/downfeed in Boiling Point 21. But we've
seen downdraft patterns in older heating stoves, etc.

We don't see downdraft/downfeed very much in recent Aprovecho
stoves because folks don't often take to this pattern. It requires learning a
new way of lighting the stove and the fire is down in the bottom of a tube. So,
Larry uses sidefeed although the coals fall into the wrong place, under the
fire, where they don't do as much good. I like downdraft/downfeed myself : you
don't have to bend over to place the sticks in the fire or check its condition.
And you can use really long sticks. You can see it in three of the stoves we
currently use: the huge incinerator in the dump in Managua, and in a heating
stove and a bread oven at the Research Center.

It's an important feature of the downdraft/downfeed pattern
that is is easily adapted to burning materials that fall from a hopper, sawdust,
husks, etc. The loose stuff falls on an inclined ladder in the insulated
combustion chamber that makes for cleaner burning. Great for incinerators where
you're having to deal with weird stuff thrown down a shute. Larry has used this
design for cooking stoves, too, for burning Guatemalan coffee husks,
etc.

See you in Seattle! I'm bringing you a set of my science
toys.

Best,

Dean
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
-----Original Message-----From:
Ron Larson <<A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net">ronallarson@qwest.net>To:
stoves@crest.org <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org>Date:
Thursday, December 27, 2001 9:37 PMSubject: Down draft
charcoal making stoves?
I. Intro and
background.   This is to explore the world of down
draft stoves. So far on this list, I remember no positive remarks
about a down draft stove design. ( I do remember down-draft
recommended as an incinerator - but this is not the air-controlled design I
talk about below. Also Elsen Karstad has employed down-draft for
charcoal making of sawdust - but he is not controlling air flow directly and
is not using the waste heat.) The downdraft gasifiers used for
coupling to IC engines that I have seen developed by Tom Reed, Das and
others also seem to not control primary air separately - mainly because (I
surmise) they desire to operate continuously from a level-controlled fuel
hopper.   I also came to some of the following conclusions
from my "book report" on wood-burning pottery kilns - where
air control is very important (but fuel supply also is)

2.
Eindhoven work. Piet Verhaart did some work on down draft
stoves when at Eindhoven. His work and the report he recommended by
Hassan Khan were not encouraging. Apparently no down draft stoves
of any type are now in production or study anywhere in the world (anyone
know anything different?)

Also, Prasad said on Nov.
30.   "The question is
whether (the down draft stove) can be used as a charcoal producer as
well: without really thinking through, an off-hand answer would be -
No."
I have concluded that Prasad
was thinking of a different design - and I hope he will conclude after
reading this that a down-draft design with direct air control can produce
charcoal.

Alex recommended the Khan
paper because it had documented a "sweet spot" where emissions
were lowest. The sweet spot was the "magic" combination of
fuel feed rate and chimney height (indirect control of total air flow,
not direct control of two air flows) that gave lowest emissions. I am
not sure, but think that a different set of dynamics will hold in this
stove, but a "sweet spot" could well also occur here ( a best
power output level).

C. Relationship to Stove
categorization.    As I was preparing my
last message on categorizing different types of stoves, I was wondering
whether I should be dismissing the charcoal-making down draft. I have
concluded not - I now think it very possible. I have had limited
agreement from Ron West, Das, and Alex English. This note is to see how
others feel - and hopefully someone will give it a try. I will
eventually, but can't see any free time for quite a while. It would be
wonderful that someone has already done the desired test or has the
equipment lying around to do some quick testing.

D. Direct Control of air
flow..   I think the reason that Verhaart, Khan, and
Prasad did not produce charcoal was that they were only indirectly
controlling air flow. (Actually, Khan does record some circumstances
with charcoal production - but it was clearly not near the
optimum operating conditions).   The Khan design was
rather like an inverted Apprevecho "Rocket" stove - power control
via fuel feed rate. There was no separate mechanism to control air
flow. All secondary air had to go through the same fuel path as the
primary or pyrolysis air - there was no separate valving of either primary
or secondary air flow. So pyrolysis gases exiting the fuel chamber had
a large excess oxygen content, unlike the pyrolysis/gasification stoves this
list has also been discussing.

E. Reference the
"Dasifier". To make a true inverse of
the updraft charcoal making stoves, one must have a tight-fitting lid on the
fuel supply, and one must keep the primary air flow through the fuel
supply very low. Then, separate secondary air must be introduced and
the pyrolysis gases thereafter combusted - possibly with premixing, or
possibly with a diffusion flame. The nearest figure I have for this
was provided by Tom Reed in introducing the "Dasifier" on November
5 (useful comments also by Andrew Heggie on Nov. 6). You will see that
Das was producing charcoal in the upper left part of the diagram - but
without the controllable top that I am advocating. However, he was
able to produce charcoal because of the depth and density of the
pellets . The exiting gas from the top container presumably has zero
or a very low oxygen content. His required secondary air is coming
from the bottom. Das agrees (I think) that secondary air coming
horizontally from the side would preclude the need for the lower chamber if
one wanted to produce charcoal - and (again, I think) would not require the
gasifying action of the lower chamber if one wished to consume the
charcoal. The difference is how much of the charcoal is exposed to the
secondary air.

F. A stove
geometry. In Tom Reed's figure of Das' gasifier, if you
think of the narrow tube as a broad flat disk shape, and ignore the lower
left gasifier portion and the injector, then you have a natural draft,
charcoal making cook (and heating) stove.   I am thinking of a
snake-like flame path that returns to a chimney near the start.
Alternatively, perhaps the chimney and fuel container should be well
separated with a large temperature difference as in the Eindhoven
work.

G.
Advantages.   The advantages that I see
are:
1.  Downdraft fits
more easily with a chimney than do typical updraft designs - in fact, won't
work without a sizeable chimney. This may prove to be necessary in all
applications where the stove is used for room heating and where Indoor Air
Quality is a key decision criterion
2. Can control the
excess air ratio - and thereby achieve high temperatures and hopefully
greater efficiency.
3. Fits in well with
applications requiring a large metal cooking surface of the type Rogerio
Miranda has been producing in Nicaragua. Power output changes
(turndown ratio) should be very large and rapid (3:1 in updraft
designs)
4. Could be designed
with one or more convertible drop-in pot elements (as noted by Verhaart et
al) for convective rather than conductive heat transfer to the
pot.
5. The fuel supply can
be replenished when the pyrolysis front has reached the top.of the (bottom
lit) fuel container (unlike the up-draft charcoal-making designs). The
fuel supply is perhaps more handy being above the cooking surface (but maybe
somewhat more dangerous there.)
6.   Can be
designed for charcoal consumption as well as production without modifying
position of charcoal or cookpot.
7. Presumably cleaner,
more controllable, and less labor intensive than fuel-controlled stoves (and
has or could have saleable charcoal co-product).
8. Cook surface can
possibly be manufactured locally from surplus barrel ends (can conceive of
staying less than $25 with locally made chimneys.).
9. An oven is an easy
add-on (with temperature control dependent on both placement and by primary
air flow).
10. Should work well
with range of fuels - not dependent on high density fuels.
10. No particular
advantage obvious for use of forced draft. A chimney that gets outside
the house looks like it should have sufficient draft. It is not
obvious that extra draft is needed for charcoal combustion.
11. Might be able to
use with insulated cookpots that have lower side and top
losses.
12. Can be
coupled with an auxiliary, heat-capturing water heater designed something
like a Samovar.

H.
Disadvantages
1. This looks
inherently more expensive than the UD version - as it requires a chimney of
probably more than one meter height and a large metal stove top (but no
more expensive than other stoves with those features, and I guess the whole
thing could be made from ceramics and tight fitting cook pots.)
2. Probably less
efficient as exit gas temperatures may be higher and the exposed metal
surface areas larger (although the cook surface can perhaps be covered when
not needed by insulating bricks.) Large exposed cooking surfaces are
common (and maybe even considered desirable) in US woodburning
cook-stoves.
3. Will require user
education on handling separate primary and secondary air
supplies.
4. Conceptual stage
only - problems are certain to develop. But this DD seems to be the
complete inverse analog of workable updraft controllable-air pyrolysis and
gasifier models - and is not the down draft on which others have
discontinued work . (I urge that we not call this the Inverted Up Draft or
IUD design; for non English speakers, you should know that the term
"IUD" has already been taken - it already has a well known
different meaning that you should use caution in determining.)

I welcome thoughts of all stovers. Is
this DD-AC-CM (down draft- air controlled - charcoal making) stove design
worth further exploration? Any references around to build
on?

Ron

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Dec 29 15:51:46 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Down draft stoves are grate!
In-Reply-To: <001001c19103$c423e260$6c15210c@default>
Message-ID: <3C2E2CC1.52C79545@cybershamanix.com>

I was wondering about the "really long sticks" and also the "inclined
ladder", don't you have problems with the fire creeping up the fuel
load? It seems like the whole fuel load would just start burning, with
flames shooting up both elbows.

=============================================================================

I like downdraft/downfeed myself : you don't have to bend over to place
the sticks in the fire or check its condition. And you can use really
long sticks. You can see it in three of the stoves we currently use: the
huge incinerator in the dump in Managua, and in a heating stove and a
bread oven at the Research Center.

It's an important feature of the downdraft/downfeed pattern that is is
easily adapted to burning materials that fall from a hopper, sawdust,
husks, etc. The loose stuff falls on an inclined ladder in the insulated
combustion chamber that makes for cleaner burning.
Great for incinerators where you're having to deal with weird stuff
thrown down a shute. Larry has used this design for cooking stoves, too,
for burning Guatemalan coffee husks,
etc.
===============================================================================

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Dec 29 16:15:26 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Down draft stoves are grate!
In-Reply-To: <001001c19103$c423e260$6c15210c@default>
Message-ID: <010401c190ae$1b6fb720$2ff86641@computer>

Dean:

1. The most important part
of this message relates to your last sentence. I was just about to send a
note reminding you about the "science toys". (For others, Dean described
these during our aborted visit to the Shell Foundation meeting in October - and
I ordered up a set then. I'll bet that Dean can sell a bunch if he brings
more than one set for me.  One is a set of sticks to build a stronger
"Bucky Fuller Geometric Dome" - using a very clever modification developed by
our list's own Richard Boyt.
There are many other important
sides to Dean that I have been meaning to mention - one being that he used to
run a whale-viewing operation from a small remote village in Mexico.
Anyone else care to add more on Dean (who is a very pleasant bright
fellow.)?

2. As with my message to Piet Verhaart, my
apologies to you and Larry Winiarski - for not noting your good past work on
down-draft stoves. I am pleased to hear that they have worked well - but
sorry to hear that users have not taken to them.

3. You are right that my main point was about
down-draft, air-controlled stoves - which I still have not seen in print.
I believe that pyrolysis and gasification processes have great promise when we
worry about clean combustion - and that promise seems like it may go up with a
down-draft stove (which needs a chimney).

Thanks for your message. See you in a couple
of weeks.    Ron

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Dean Still
To: <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org ; <A
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" title=tmiles@trmiles.com>Tom Miles ; <A
href="mailto:tempra@treeswaterpeople.org"
title=tempra@treeswaterpeople.org>Tempra Board ; <A
href="mailto:tami.bond@noaa.gov" title=tami.bond@noaa.gov>Tami Bond ; <A
href="mailto:stuart@treeswaterpeople.org"
title=stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>Stuart Conway ; <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net" title=ronallarson@qwest.net>Ron Larson
; Rogerio
Miranda ; <A href="mailto:richardnjagu@yahoo.com"
title=richardnjagu@yahoo.com>richard njagu ; <A
href="mailto:rdboyt@yahoo.com" title=rdboyt@yahoo.com>Richard Boyt ; <A
href="mailto:Piet.Visser@inter.NL.net" title=Piet.Visser@inter.NL.net>Piet
Visser ; <A href="mailto:verhaarp@cqu.edu.au"
title=verhaarp@cqu.edu.au>Peter Verhaart ; <A
href="mailto:apropeter@hotmail.com" title=apropeter@hotmail.com>peter
scott ; <A href="mailto:pattiflynn@hotmail.com"
title=pattiflynn@hotmail.com>Patrick Flynn ; <A
href="mailto:gandanga@dsl-only.net" title=gandanga@dsl-only.net>Marian
Grebanier ; <A href="mailto:LButtner@winrock.org"
title=LButtner@winrock.org>Lisa Buttner ; <A
href="mailto:childers@peak.org" title=childers@peak.org>Laurie Childers ;
Larry
Winiarski ; Lanny
Henson ; <A href="mailto:krksmith@uclink4.berkeley.edu"
title=krksmith@uclink4.berkeley.edu>Kirk R. Smith ; <A
href="mailto:Kevin.Hallinan@notes.udayton.edu"
title=Kevin.Hallinan@notes.udayton.edu>kevin hallinan ; <A
href="mailto:kmbryden@iastate.edu" title=kmbryden@iastate.edu>kenneth mark
bryden ; <A href="mailto:Peter.Kenmore@fao.org"
title=Peter.Kenmore@fao.org>Kenmore, Peter (AGPP) ; <A
href="mailto:goyen@efn.org" title=goyen@efn.org>Ken Goyer ; <A
href="mailto:krisab@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU"
title=krisab@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>Karissa Ansell-Bell ; <A
href="mailto:jesldc@dante.lbl.gov" title=jesldc@dante.lbl.gov>Jonathan E.
Sinton ; Jeff
Conant ; <A href="mailto:grant@ecoharmony.com"
title=grant@ecoharmony.com>Grant Ballard-Tremeer ; <A
href="mailto:rudy@wehi.EDU.AU" title=rudy@wehi.EDU.AU>George Rudy ; <A
href="mailto:fev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" title=fev@darkwing.uoregon.edu>Frank
Vignola ; <A href="mailto:elizabethb@itdg.org.uk"
title=elizabethb@itdg.org.uk>Elizabeth Bates ; <A
href="mailto:dononeal@fni.com" title=dononeal@fni.com>Don O'Neal ; <A
href="mailto:entre16@intelnet.net.gt" title=entre16@intelnet.net.gt>Derick
Calderon ; <A href="mailto:delaciebarney@yahoo.com"
title=delaciebarney@yahoo.com>Delacie Barney ; <A
href="mailto:dpennise@uclink4.berkeley.edu"
title=dpennise@uclink4.berkeley.edu>David Pennise ; <A
href="mailto:kammen@Princeton.EDU" title=kammen@Princeton.EDU>Daniel M.
Kammen ; <A href="mailto:ACousins@seattleu.edu"
title=ACousins@seattleu.edu>Cousins, Ananda ; <A
href="mailto:bvanappel@yahoo.com" title=bvanappel@yahoo.com>brad ; <A
href="mailto:horizon@engr.colostate.edu"
title=horizon@engr.colostate.edu>horizon
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 12:28
AM
Subject: Re: Down draft stoves are
grate!

Dear Ron,

When you mention downdraft stoves, I see that you are
thinking more about charcoal making stoves but I wanted to mention that Larry
Winiarski has been playing with downdraft for quite a while. Aprovecho still
uses the downdraft pattern for the fuel magazine where people will use it
because it is cleaner burning and the sticks of wood are somewhat self
feeding. Instead of feeding sticks of wood into a Rocket elbow in the shape of
the letter L (sidefeed), downdraft Rocket elbows look more like the letter U,
with one shorter vertical side. Sticks are fed vertically down the shorter
side of the elbow and (in our case) are lit at the bottom. The fire is drawn
up the taller side of the U which is very well insulated. The pot sits on top
of the insulated part of the apparatus. The feed magazine is shorter than the
combustion chamber and only insulated at the bottom, which helps the flame to
travel in the right direction, toward the pot.

Rocket stoves started out using the downfeed/downdraft feed
magazine pattern because it is more efficient. Why? Because 1.) a easily
controlled amount of air is appreciably warmed as it is sucked down into the
fire and then 2.) gases pass right over the hot bed of coals cleaning up
emissions. Coals fall in front of the sticks into the flame path. Larry
published a description of downdraft/downfeed in Boiling Point 21. But we've
seen downdraft patterns in older heating stoves, etc.

We don't see downdraft/downfeed very much in recent
Aprovecho stoves because folks don't often take to this pattern. It requires
learning a new way of lighting the stove and the fire is down in the bottom of
a tube. So, Larry uses sidefeed although the coals fall into the wrong place,
under the fire, where they don't do as much good. I like downdraft/downfeed
myself : you don't have to bend over to place the sticks in the fire or check
its condition. And you can use really long sticks. You can see it in three of
the stoves we currently use: the huge incinerator in the dump in Managua, and
in a heating stove and a bread oven at the Research Center.

It's an important feature of the downdraft/downfeed pattern
that is is easily adapted to burning materials that fall from a hopper,
sawdust, husks, etc. The loose stuff falls on an inclined ladder in the
insulated combustion chamber that makes for cleaner burning. Great for
incinerators where you're having to deal with weird stuff thrown down a shute.
Larry has used this design for cooking stoves, too, for burning Guatemalan
coffee husks, etc.

See you in Seattle! I'm bringing you a set of my science
toys.

Best,

Dean
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
-----Original Message-----From:
Ron Larson <<A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net">ronallarson@qwest.net>To:
stoves@crest.org <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org>Date:
Thursday, December 27, 2001 9:37 PMSubject: Down draft
charcoal making stoves?
I. Intro and
background.   This is to explore the world of down
draft stoves. So far on this list, I remember no positive remarks
about a down draft stove design. ( I do remember down-draft
recommended as an incinerator - but this is not the air-controlled design I
talk about below. Also Elsen Karstad has employed down-draft for
charcoal making of sawdust - but he is not controlling air flow directly and
is not using the waste heat.) The downdraft gasifiers used for
coupling to IC engines that I have seen developed by Tom Reed, Das and
others also seem to not control primary air separately - mainly because (I
surmise) they desire to operate continuously from a level-controlled fuel
hopper.   I also came to some of the following conclusions
from my "book report" on wood-burning pottery kilns - where air control
is very important (but fuel supply also is)

2.
Eindhoven work. Piet Verhaart did some work on down draft
stoves when at Eindhoven. His work and the report he recommended by
Hassan Khan were not encouraging. Apparently no down draft stoves
of any type are now in production or study anywhere in the world (anyone
know anything different?)

Also, Prasad said on Nov.
30.   "The question is
whether (the down draft stove) can be used as a charcoal producer as
well: without really thinking through, an off-hand answer would be -
No."
I have concluded that Prasad
was thinking of a different design - and I hope he will conclude after
reading this that a down-draft design with direct air control can produce
charcoal.

Alex recommended the Khan
paper because it had documented a "sweet spot" where emissions were
lowest. The sweet spot was the "magic" combination of fuel feed rate
and chimney height (indirect control of total air flow, not direct
control of two air flows) that gave lowest emissions. I am not sure,
but think that a different set of dynamics will hold in this stove, but a
"sweet spot" could well also occur here ( a best power output
level).

C. Relationship to Stove
categorization.    As I was preparing my
last message on categorizing different types of stoves, I was wondering
whether I should be dismissing the charcoal-making down draft. I have
concluded not - I now think it very possible. I have had limited
agreement from Ron West, Das, and Alex English. This note is to see how
others feel - and hopefully someone will give it a try. I will
eventually, but can't see any free time for quite a while. It would be
wonderful that someone has already done the desired test or has the
equipment lying around to do some quick testing.

D. Direct Control of air
flow..   I think the reason that Verhaart, Khan, and
Prasad did not produce charcoal was that they were only indirectly
controlling air flow. (Actually, Khan does record some circumstances
with charcoal production - but it was clearly not near the
optimum operating conditions).   The Khan design was
rather like an inverted Apprevecho "Rocket" stove - power control via fuel
feed rate. There was no separate mechanism to control air flow.
All secondary air had to go through the same fuel path as the primary or
pyrolysis air - there was no separate valving of either primary or secondary
air flow. So pyrolysis gases exiting the fuel chamber had a large
excess oxygen content, unlike the pyrolysis/gasification stoves this list
has also been discussing.

E. Reference the
"Dasifier". To make a true inverse of the updraft
charcoal making stoves, one must have a tight-fitting lid on the fuel
supply, and one must keep the primary air flow through the fuel supply
very low. Then, separate secondary air must be introduced and the
pyrolysis gases thereafter combusted - possibly with premixing, or possibly
with a diffusion flame. The nearest figure I have for this was
provided by Tom Reed in introducing the "Dasifier" on November 5 (useful
comments also by Andrew Heggie on Nov. 6). You will see that Das was
producing charcoal in the upper left part of the diagram - but without the
controllable top that I am advocating. However, he was able to produce
charcoal because of the depth and density of the pellets . The
exiting gas from the top container presumably has zero or a very low oxygen
content. His required secondary air is coming from the bottom.
Das agrees (I think) that secondary air coming horizontally from the side
would preclude the need for the lower chamber if one wanted to produce
charcoal - and (again, I think) would not require the gasifying
action of the lower chamber if one wished to consume the
charcoal. The difference is how much of the charcoal is exposed to the
secondary air.

F. A stove
geometry. In Tom Reed's figure of Das' gasifier, if you
think of the narrow tube as a broad flat disk shape, and ignore the lower
left gasifier portion and the injector, then you have a natural draft,
charcoal making cook (and heating) stove.   I am thinking of a
snake-like flame path that returns to a chimney near the start.
Alternatively, perhaps the chimney and fuel container should be well
separated with a large temperature difference as in the Eindhoven
work.

G.
Advantages.   The advantages that I see
are:
1.  Downdraft fits
more easily with a chimney than do typical updraft designs - in fact, won't
work without a sizeable chimney. This may prove to be necessary in all
applications where the stove is used for room heating and where Indoor Air
Quality is a key decision criterion
2. Can control the
excess air ratio - and thereby achieve high temperatures and hopefully
greater efficiency.
3. Fits in well with
applications requiring a large metal cooking surface of the type Rogerio
Miranda has been producing in Nicaragua. Power output changes
(turndown ratio) should be very large and rapid (3:1 in updraft
designs)
4. Could be designed
with one or more convertible drop-in pot elements (as noted by Verhaart et
al) for convective rather than conductive heat transfer to the
pot.
5. The fuel supply can
be replenished when the pyrolysis front has reached the top.of the (bottom
lit) fuel container (unlike the up-draft charcoal-making designs). The
fuel supply is perhaps more handy being above the cooking surface (but maybe
somewhat more dangerous there.)
6.   Can be
designed for charcoal consumption as well as production without modifying
position of charcoal or cookpot.
7. Presumably cleaner,
more controllable, and less labor intensive than fuel-controlled stoves (and
has or could have saleable charcoal co-product).
8. Cook surface can
possibly be manufactured locally from surplus barrel ends (can conceive of
staying less than $25 with locally made chimneys.).
9. An oven is an easy
add-on (with temperature control dependent on both placement and by primary
air flow).
10. Should work well
with range of fuels - not dependent on high density fuels.
10. No particular
advantage obvious for use of forced draft. A chimney that gets outside
the house looks like it should have sufficient draft. It is not
obvious that extra draft is needed for charcoal combustion.
11. Might be able to
use with insulated cookpots that have lower side and top
losses.
12. Can be
coupled with an auxiliary, heat-capturing water heater designed something
like a Samovar.

H.
Disadvantages
1. This looks
inherently more expensive than the UD version - as it requires a chimney of
probably more than one meter height and a large metal stove top (but no
more expensive than other stoves with those features, and I guess the whole
thing could be made from ceramics and tight fitting cook pots.)
2. Probably less
efficient as exit gas temperatures may be higher and the exposed metal
surface areas larger (although the cook surface can perhaps be covered when
not needed by insulating bricks.) Large exposed cooking surfaces are
common (and maybe even considered desirable) in US woodburning
cook-stoves.
3. Will require user
education on handling separate primary and secondary air
supplies.
4. Conceptual stage
only - problems are certain to develop. But this DD seems to be the
complete inverse analog of workable updraft controllable-air pyrolysis and
gasifier models - and is not the down draft on which others have
discontinued work . (I urge that we not call this the Inverted Up Draft or
IUD design; for non English speakers, you should know that the term
"IUD" has already been taken - it already has a well known different meaning
that you should use caution in determining.)

I welcome thoughts of all stovers. Is
this DD-AC-CM (down draft- air controlled - charcoal making) stove design
worth further exploration? Any references around to build
on?

<FONT face=Arial
size=2>Ron

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Dec 29 16:23:51 2001
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: flash carbonization of biomass
In-Reply-To: <DKEKJFDEBAHEFLPFIOFOIENICBAA.mantal@hawaii.edu>
Message-ID: <e0ds2ukh99fjis5v0c4iuvspa74uqbrtdg@4ax.com>

On Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:10:17 -0700, "Ron Larson"
<ronallarson@qwest.net> wrote:

>
> I looked at your site
>(http://www.soest.hawaii.edu./HNEI/R3proj.html#Anchor-High-Yield-47747) and
>found a little more than in your note. Thanks for sending us this
>information and congratulations at finding a fast new means of pyrolysis. I
>am afraid I still haven't understood the process - and I understand the need
>for doing more development work - and for protecting patents, etc. I am
>sure we all wish you great success for pursuing your new, higher pressure,
>lower energy approach - and of hearing more as you make further progress.

I am not familiar with Mike's work other than that which he has posted
to this list. I thought the major achievement of his process was the
high yield of carbon as opposed to high volatiles charcoal. This
should have good implications for low ash charcoal for use in high
grade metal refining.

> However, I presume that your announcing this does allow you also to
>suggest whether there is a possible small-scale approach possible for
>home-based simple cook-stoves. Higher pressure would usually equate to
>higher cost, but perhaps not.

High pressure is very limiting as the vessel size increases, which has
implications for mechanised loading. What a lot of people seem to fail
to appreciate is that charring even at low pressures can be a quick
process.

> Certainly producing large amounts of
>charcoal quickly should eventually suggest also lower cost charcoal
>briquettes for home use. But I am also asking whether you think charcoal
>making stoves (two outputs: cooking and charcoal) are possible that employ
>your new discoveries? Are there fundamental reasons to recommend persons on
>this list interested in small cook-stoves to stay away from high-pressure
>approaches ? (I am thinking of something like a pressure cooker - which is
>not an outrageous complexity or price.) You still must have a good bit of
>"waste" energy. Do you think it is still possible to use that for rural
>bakeries, brick kilns, etc?

Ronal, I wish I had had time to comment on your posts with regard to
ceramic kilns, I consider them to be a good prospect for "cascaded"
use of heat as they reject their heat at such high temperatures and it
is often wasted. Use of pyrolysis offgas for a tile or brick kiln has
always been a dream of mine. Remember those posts all those years ago
of the school kid's method of making "drawing" charcoal in a cocoa tin
with a small pinprick to allow offgas to escape? The jet from this is
impressive and patently is driven by pressure in the can trying to
escape. The pressure arises because the wood has broken down to a char
residue and a vapour/gas mix. The same concept is used (from an
original idea by Yuri?) in the Karves' retort to char cane leaves. The
drawback of this retort heated from outside approach is that the heat
transfer can only take place through the walls of the vessel and
thence from char particle to unreacted biomass, but it does make use
of the offgas being flared in a supporting fire. There is likely to be
gradation of the extent of charring from outside to middle.

Traditionally char was made in kilns, basically an air starved fire in
a container, I believe the idd stove is a kiln in this respect. The
kiln has a heat transfer advantage in that the offgas and combustion
products circulate around as yet unreacted biomass. The disadvantage
is that valuable char is consumed preferentially to offgas to achieve
this.

So one needs to combine the attributes of a kiln's good heat transfer,
with those of a retort's high char yield. This is the approach Lurgi
used in coal retorts and I believe the Simcoa plant. Mike appears to
be taking the same route and it is also my preferred approach.
Unfortunately despite being on the starting blocks since 1997 I have
got no further than preliminary tests and a long winded research
project with a UK academic establishment.

This is why I am not keen on promoting IDD as a means of making
charcoal, though I am happy to accept its by product is charcoal that
is produced with little pollution and as such is better than much
charcoal making. I think Tom Reed agrees with me the IDD pyrolysis
front is powered by charcoal burning, plainly this detracts from
charcoal yield. With the advanced clean charcoal making I, and Mike
Antal, are playing with any heat necessary for maintaining pyrolysis
comes from burning some of the offgas and recirculating this hot gas
stream through the char. There are a number of ways of configuring
this, none patentable IMO but nonetheless the actual designs will be
proprietary and subject to confidentiality.

The implementation I am looking at uses quite basic technology and
should be possible to deploy in the sort of situations envisaged by
the Karves' project. A benefit to my mind is that this method can
control the temperature and cook time of the biomass to vary the
resulting char from post torrefied wood through Tom's seasweep and up
to metallurgical grades. My interest is in high volatiles charcoal and
I have made material which is friable like charcoal but retains 45% of
the mass of the original dry matter.

AJH

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From CAVM at aol.com Sat Dec 29 19:17:00 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Aeration via biomass heat
Message-ID: <11b.94d1504.295fb6d2@aol.com>

Ok Stovers, I have to provide substantial aeration to a fish pond which is
off the grid. My technical folks tell me I need 8,000 to10,000 hp of
aerators on the 316 hectares of 1 meter deep water. The electrical supply to
operate that many horsepower would be 5-8 MW, a huge undertaking.

Is there any practical way to heat air so that it flows with some pressure
through pipes laid at the bottom of the fish ponds? I could then bubble up
air through the water. Even with a fine bubble diffuser this is very
inefficient compared to other methods but if I can use biomass fuel it may
not matter.

I picture the heat tubes on a fireplace that blow air when the fire is going
even without electrical motors. This is the type of action I had in mind.
Perhaps there are other things that can be done.

I can't just blow the flue exhaust through the water since it would overload
the fish with CO2.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc
CAVM@AOL>com

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Dec 30 09:20:58 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Fwd: Aeration via biomass heat
Message-ID: <a1.2044fade.29607cb8@aol.com>

To: CAVM@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aeration via biomass heat
From: Carefreeland@aol.com
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 08:48:55 EST
Full-name: Carefreeland

Dear Cornelius:
There is no simple way to provide aeration to your ponds. As you stated
the flue gasses cannot be used. Any system based on expanding air would not
work because of the cooling of the air on it's way to the ponds.
The most efficient way would be to use turbo blowers running off of a
gasifier. The simplest way would be to use the cooling water of an IC engine
pressurized by the water pump to power aerating fountains. This could also
add heat to the ponds unless it's not needed. The IC engine would run off of
a gasifier. The IC engine could then run a generator as well.
Daniel Dimiduk

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From CAVM at aol.com Sun Dec 30 09:35:21 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: Aeration via biomass heat
Message-ID: <68.19109c4f.2960801a@aol.com>

Carefreeland@aol.com writes:

<< The most efficient way would be to use turbo blowers running off of a
gasifier. The simplest way would be to use the cooling water of an IC
engine
pressurized by the water pump to power aerating fountains >>

I agree that if an effective gasifier could be found and the gases be of
predictable quality that running IC engines or maybe even turbines from them
would be an option.

Using the IC engine pump might be the trick if the gasifier would work.
Gasifiers are not sufficiently reliable, are moderately expensive and
temperamental. If the aeration system fails millions of dollars worth of
shrimp die.

Maybe several decentralized units would be the safest way to go, but even
still the gasifiers are touchy. Direct combustion turbines would be more
likely to get my attention.

How reliable would the gasifier turbo be? Maybe the variable quality of the
gas would be less of an issue.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Dec 30 09:52:08 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:30 2004
Subject: research
In-Reply-To: <20011230112846.8924.qmail@kolaymail.com>
Message-ID: <002301c19141$d4df72c0$eee16641@computer>

Suna:
I hope there may be few on the stove list with knowledge to help you. I
am sending this on to the full "stoves" list. We have had interest on this
list in the distant past on the subjects of barbecuing and smoking of
products for food preservation purposes. I know nothing about the subject
and presume that you have found us through a web search.

From our side, I hope you will tell us of any health aspects of smoking
foods of which you are aware - and of the health and taste benefits of
either cold or hot smoking of foods. Do people in the fisheries industries
hope for better forms of "stoves" (using the term broadly)? What aspects
of the smoke are most and least desirable?

I am forwarding this separately to Dr. Reed, who will also see this as a
member of "stoves".

I am also forwarding to Professor Emeritus Ron West who has served as a
Fulbright Professor twice in Turkey (and is a "stoves" member and Chemical
Engineer).

Best of luck in your research.

Ron ("stoves" list coordinator)

(ps - I learned more about Sinop (a port on the Black Sea) and this
University (in Samsun also a port) at http://www.omu.edu.tr/uib/english.htm)

----- Original Message -----
From: suna dokumac&inodot; <tasu@kolaymail.com>
To: <larcon@sni.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 4:28 AM
Subject: research

>
> Dear Tom Reed
>
> I work as a research assitant at Sinop Fisheries Faculty of 19 May&inodot;s
> University. &Idot;n my doctora thesis, &inodot; have been studying on “research
of
> benzo(a)pyrene content in cold and hot smoking in salmon “
>
> &Idot;f you have got any puplications, papers and documents which are relevant
or
> concerning on researchs. &Idot;f you help me about my thesis, I will be very
> pleasure
>
> I am looking forward to hearing from you soon.
>
> All best regards
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Kolaymail...
> 10 MB mail alan&inodot;, 20 MB web alan&inodot;, 20 MB disk alan&inodot;...
> Kolayeri&scedil;im...
> Ve di&gbreve;er kolayl&inodot;klar...
>
> Kolay gelsin...
> www.kolaymail.com
>
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Reedtb2 at cs.com Sun Dec 30 13:37:14 2001
From: Reedtb2 at cs.com (Reedtb2@cs.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: African Stove tests...
Message-ID: <154.68abdf9.2960b8b3@cs.com>

Dear Crispin and Paul:

Great news all around. Good to find out what doesn't work as well as what
works so negative results are almost as good as positive.

Your 12 to 15 g/min burn could generate (15 X 18 KJ/g) 270 kJ. The heat of
vaporization of water is about 2.4 kJ/g, so 100% efficiency would boil 110
g/min. So I agree the 100 g or cc/min is unexpectedly high.

What is the precision of your digital scale? Mine is 5 g, and I occasionally
interpolate when the numbers flash back and fourth to 2 g. I have been
recommending such a scale for 5 years here at STOVES and as far as I know you
are the first to use one. Qualitative is nice, but quantitative is
eventually necessary.
oooo
I am here in Southboro MA for Xmas with a laptop with a few keys missing
(#six, delete, home etc.) Thinking of taking it apart. Comments?

I have been testing our latest camp stove on twigs and THEY WON'T LIGHT. Too
wet? Too cold here (0 C)? Too porous so too much underfire air? Burns fine
with chips and pellets, but as you say they aren't available everywhere.

TINDER is an important part of all wood burning and especially for top
lighting. I use small chips soaked in any alcohol and can start cooking in
less than a minute on the initially blue flame. Soaking in any other
combustible liquid (kerosene, diesel, bacon fat, wax) will work too, but
makes more soot if clean pots is your object. Punky wood, pine needles,
twigs come in a distant third.

The pace is quickening. I hope many stoves will be invented and distributed
in 2002.

Onward to the Ultimate...

TOM REED THE BEF STOVEWORKS
<<
Dear Stovers

Paul Anderson has once again managed to catch a plane out of South Africa
and is headed to the US of A with a production prototype stove for Tom Reed
in tow.

We worked in rushed conditions yesterday briefly burning three fuel types in
two stoves and I will post the results of that work asap.

He left me with an IDD stove of his own fabrication, some pelletized wood
and some more Moçambique Briquettes from various materials.

We had the briquette maker (man) with us from Maputo and he seemed very
impressed with the way the Basintuthu burned his briquettes (broken up to
suit the fire grate). He was able to see the stove working but not inspect
it's innards. It has preheated primary and secondary air.

I can report that the charcoaling gassifier was consuming 4 grames of fuel
per minute (net) and the Moç sawdust-charcoal-paper briquettes had an
identical burn rate in the Basintuthu Single Stove which was too slow for
our needs. The square New Dawn paper-sawdust briquettes, with no holes in
them for a change, burned up to 24 grammes per minute when given full air
but more typically 12-20 gm/min.

I have in the meantime acquired a digital scale capable of holding the
entire stove/pot/fuel load so we can watch the mass change as time passes.
We were able to use this. The total mass of the loaded stove during a test
is 10-11 Kg.

Some things are clear from the test burns:

1) The gasifier stove (IDD) requires a fuel which is unobtainable in this
region. It worked well at the relatively low power that it has. It burned
very cleanly once we got it smoking and burning properly, though it took a
long ime to get the fuel hot enough to 'charcoal'. More than 30 minutes
actually. The place is humid and the fuel seemed to be suffering from that.
Air drying briquettes this month has been difficult. The American fuel is
very consistent.

2) The Moç briquettes are well compacted and strong - highly transportable.
They would not work (ignite) in the round grate of the Basintuthu when there
was no air passage around them. We broke them up and they worked well
albeit with a pretty low power output. I have some more sample briquettes
from them without charcoal and I will give some a try in the coming week. I
suspect they could use more sawdust and less paper.

3) There was no discernable difference between the New Dawn briquettes
without holes and with in terms of lighting ease and burning
characteristics. Perhaps some difference will show up on the scale which
can show 2 gm changes in the total mass. I expected a slightly slower burn
because of the lower surface area.

4) At a fuel consumption of 12-16 gm / min the Basintuthu was (apparently)
boiling off about 100cc of water per minute at 98 deg C. I thought this was
unexpectedly high.

More later...

Regards
Crispin
>>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Dec 30 16:58:25 2001
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: African Stove tests...
In-Reply-To: <154.68abdf9.2960b8b3@cs.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c19118$01017580$6ce80fc4@home>

Dear Tom

The scale I am using has 2gm divisions and I was very fortunate to get it
for about 1/6 the cost of a new one from a company that is closing down. It
can take 12.5 Kg on its plate without complaining and I can press zero to
get the fuel use reading out directly. It counts minusly (is there such a
word?) as it burns. I can't put a 15Kg item on it and press zero - it
balks. It is a counting scale actually. It can give me 5 significant
digits accuracy if I say I am putting on a 'sample' but it can't count down
like that.

I have no idea how the 100gm of water can boil off so suddenly but there can
be other factors having to do with the initial 'boil' compared with a
sustained boil. I will do a test of perhaps 40 minutes next week when I am
back in the workshop.

I did not use 18 KJ/Kg as my heat value on the tests I sent up. I used 15
KJ. This will affect the claimed edfficiency, bringing it down 5/6ths. I
have no real method of testing the true heat content of the fuel and it
would cost a fortune to have CSIR test it in Pretoria.

I am open to suggestions on how to get the heat content of the various fuels
estimated. I was using a chart I have from woods of various types in an old
Engineering handbook. The mix is 80% pine and 20% newspaper. There is
rather a high resin content in the locally grown pine, in my view.

Have a bash!
Crispin

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Sun Dec 30 17:51:20 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: African Stove tests...
In-Reply-To: <154.68abdf9.2960b8b3@cs.com>
Message-ID: <007401c19183$f60ee880$7919059a@kevin>

Dear Crispin

To address the last of your observations and questions....
> Dear Tom
>
> The scale I am using has 2gm divisions and I was very fortunate to get it

...del...

> I am open to suggestions on how to get the heat content of the various
fuels
> estimated. I was using a chart I have from woods of various types in an
old
> Engineering handbook. The mix is 80% pine and 20% newspaper. There is
> rather a high resin content in the locally grown pine, in my view.
>
The cellulostic fraction of wod runs about 8,400 BTU per pound, and the
resins from pine are similar in heating value to oil. Very aproximately,
consider 16,800 BTU per pound. Pine that may be as much as 10% resin would
then be:

8400 x .9 + 16,800 x .1 = 9,240 BTU/Lb

Methanol is a reasonably good solvent for resins. If you carefully ovendried
a block of pine wood, to get it tothe "Bone Dry" condition, and then planed
it to get exactly (say) 100 grams of planer shavings, you could leach with
methanol to remove substantialy all the resin. You could then dry the planer
shavings and by weight difference, determine the approximate resin content.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Dec 30 17:53:26 2001
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: Aeration via biomass heat
In-Reply-To: <11b.94d1504.295fb6d2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011201c19184$edfbd760$eee16641@computer>

Cornelius:

I hate to say this, but I don't think we are the right list for much
extended discussion of this topic - although it is always fun to hear of
possible off-grid RE projects.

The first question is where you are - how far off the grid, costs of
fossil fuels, reliability of the grid, wind, solar, geothermal, and biomass
resources, etc. The best model I have found for then answering your
question in a least cost fashion is a model developed at NREL called "HOMER"
(Hybrid Optimization Model for Electric Renewables)
(http://www.nrel.gov/international/HOMER/what-is-homer.html).

They are in the process of adding biomass opportunities. The developer
Peter Lilienthal (peter_lilienthal@nrel.gov) is a personal friend and I
believe would like to hear from you.

At your scale, and if biomass resources look cheap, I like especially
the work of Dr. Ralph Overend of NREL - (a "stoves" list member) - who knows
about plant performance and costs at your MW scale. I heard a talk in
August that I recommend (http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/agenda.html). Look
just before noon on day 1 for a 9 MByte Power point overview.

Maybe we can add better ideas if we know where your ponds are located.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: <CAVM@aol.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 5:16 PM
Subject: Aeration via biomass heat

> Ok Stovers, I have to provide substantial aeration to a fish pond which is
> off the grid. My technical folks tell me I need 8,000 to10,000 hp of
> aerators on the 316 hectares of 1 meter deep water. The electrical supply
to
> operate that many horsepower would be 5-8 MW, a huge undertaking.
>
> Is there any practical way to heat air so that it flows with some pressure
> through pipes laid at the bottom of the fish ponds? I could then bubble
up
> air through the water. Even with a fine bubble diffuser this is very
> inefficient compared to other methods but if I can use biomass fuel it may
> not matter.
>
> I picture the heat tubes on a fireplace that blow air when the fire is
going
> even without electrical motors. This is the type of action I had in mind.
> Perhaps there are other things that can be done.
>
> I can't just blow the flue exhaust through the water since it would
overload
> the fish with CO2.
>
> Cornelius A. Van Milligen
> Kentucky Enrichment Inc
> CAVM@AOL>com
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/
> http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/biomass-info/carbon.shtml
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>
>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Dec 30 20:37:53 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: African Stove tests...
Message-ID: <29.204024fe.29611b68@aol.com>

Tom R,
You almost certainly have wet twigs if they have been outdoors. I am
fighting wet wood across the board here in Ohio. It has been a VERY wet
November-December here in the East with steady, week long, foggy, flooding
type rains. Even my covered woodpiles have been soaked wet from high
humidity and dew.
If the wood is not in the basement, and has been indoors, you have a
chance of dry wood. My efforts have been to get a loft up in the stove room,
to dry cords of wood, and to store the solar/wood heat in the drying wood at
the same time. Finding construction time is tough between cutting wood, and
handling deicing salt.
Can you find a place to dry your twigs with the waste heat of a cooling
stove? Use your pellets and the largest pot or pan you have, to "cook" the
twigs slowly dry, lid off.
I Often deal with wet wood by burning 1/3 wet wood with 2/3 dry. Use
some excess air. Once I have the stove going, wood drys faster on top of the
stove than I can use it. It takes a day or more to finnish drying wood
firewood, but only a couple of hours to heat it enough to drive off surface
moisture. Can you run a "real life test" the desperate way, stretching the
dry pellet supply by mixing with the damp twigs? Break the twigs up small.
In real life, the wood is often damp if one lives in the Eastern USA.
One of my tests of a good stove, is one that can start with a small supply of
dry wood, and with the above methods, quickly generate a dry wood supply from
the wet. I'm doing it now to heat my Greenhouse and house, while the temp
hit a low of F 5 degrees last night at the farm. The high today was about F
20 degrees. Currently, a balmy F 17 degrees.
It's the cost of a new furnace, as much as the cost of natural gas and
propane which motivates me to heat, even with wet wood.
Common sense, but maybe this helps someone, free advise from my "wet wood
steam heated" house, on a cold Ohio winter evening.
Happy New Year to all,
Dan Dimiduk

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Dec 30 20:44:02 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: African Stove tests...
Message-ID: <11.20398b89.29611cbc@aol.com>

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From CAVM at aol.com Sun Dec 30 21:19:20 2001
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: Aeration via biomass heat
Message-ID: <f9.150bddd9.2961251f@aol.com>

ronallarson@qwest.net writes:

<< I hate to say this, but I don't think we are the right list for much
extended discussion of this topic - although it is always fun to hear of
possible off-grid RE projects. >>

I agree Ron, I didn't think the Stoves list would provide me with much
information about electrical generation. I am really hoping that I can learn
something about the possibility of moving air under some pressure to
underwater aerators. It seems that air is a big deal to the Stoves' group
members. I thought that maybe heating air in some tubes could cause it to
flow through the aerators without the need to generate electricity for pumps.

These 41 ponds totaling 316 hectares are in west central Mexico on the Sea of
Cortez, or some call it the Gulf of California. The cost to bring electrical
supply from the grid makes it out of the question, the farm would close first.

I am checking out the sites you recommended.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Mon Dec 31 00:19:26 2001
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: Fwd: Aeration via biomass heat
In-Reply-To: <a1.2044fade.29607cb8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011231144613.00a58ab0@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 09:20 30/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>
>Dear Cornelius:
> There is no simple way to provide aeration to your ponds. As you stated
>the flue gasses cannot be used. Any system based on expanding air would not
>work because of the cooling of the air on it's way to the ponds.
> The most efficient way would be to use turbo blowers running off of a
>gasifier. The simplest way would be to use the cooling water of an IC engine
>pressurized by the water pump to power aerating fountains. This could also
>add heat to the ponds unless it's not needed. The IC engine would run off of
>a gasifier. The IC engine could then run a generator as well.
> Daniel Dimiduk

I forgot how many hectares of pond you have, Cornelius but remember a depth
of 1 m. But you have 10,000 m^3 of water per hectare or 10 Megaliter/hectare.
You need enough oxygen, dissolved in the water, to satisfy the oxygen
demand of the fish + whatever else needs oxygen. A water surface will
absorb oxygen from the atmosphere without any help from us, it should be
possible to find out how much oxygen is absorbed per m^2 or per hectare per
day, depending on temperature and probably average wind velocity. How many
fish per m^3 and how much oxygen per fish. Doing this sum might give you a
lesser need, which can be filled with a smaller outset in machinery. There
are many ways to aereate water, bubbles, needing a blower or fountains
needing a pump or beaters needing motors.

Hoping this is of some use.

Peter Verhaart

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Dec 31 10:50:16 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: Aeration via biomass heat
Message-ID: <18a.141d454.2961e307@aol.com>

Cornelius,
I have done a little homework and it seems what you need is a good used
blastfurnace turboblower for airation. Figure off of this: 4200 ton per day
of hot metal uses 1,152,000 cu. ft. of air at 80 psi. Smaller furnaces are
1600 ton per day.
The turboblowers for blastfurnaces are reliable because the furnaces
can't be shut down or they would need re-lined. I belive they use two or
more per BF so that one can be serviced. The fuel is scrubbed furnace
top-gas consisting of CO with other constituants similar to a woodgas in btu.
There are plenty of good used turboblowers avalible now, because of all
of the steelmills shutting down in the USA.
How much biomass and of what type are avalible, and at what cost to
deliver to the site? You will need a large gasifier to power one of these.
You could scavange the heat from the exhaust, and use it to produce
electricity to run other processes.
This would be a major undertaking, however, I am aware of the large
productivity increases at fishfarms using supplemental airation.
Daniel Dimiduk

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Dec 31 10:58:02 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (psanders@ilstu.edu)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: Juntos (together) stove !!! This works!!
Message-ID: <530055645.1009814289856.JavaMail.root@mail.ilstu.edu>

Juntos ("together") Stove report.

This is a new design and it works in initial trials.

After my December Africa trip, I am back in frozen Illinois doing stove design work.

Ambient temperature 20 F ( -5 C), snow fluries, light wind, unprotected/unshielded stove and aluminum pot, and I boiled a liter of water in 5 minutes. I am happy (but also glad to get indoors to write the report.)

I have already named my new stove. “Juntos” means “together” in Portuguese (with a soft “j” sound like the “ge” in protégé. Or in Spanish with the “h” sound like in a political junta, making it sound like: “hoontos” but not “hunt-tos”. In either language, it still means “together” and is understandable by English speakers because of the “junta” term.

Components of the Juntos stove:

1. Basket-shaped metal grate ala New Dawn – Crispin PP
2. Rocket stove (small version) ala Aprovecho – Dean Stills
3. True gasification unit ala Reed-Larson
4. Can burn briquettes ala Legacy – Richard Stanley
5. Air-pipe ala Paul Anderson

Includes pre-heated secondary air,
TOP lighting AND BOTTOM lighting sections,
Fast initial heat,
Long-term slow heat
Smoke-less when operational, almost smokeless at start-up.
Tincanium materials with probable mud and brick options,
Projected cost to be under $10 per unit, maybe under $3 if not counting local labor and materials
But we could also have the “top of the line model” with $100 value (chrome plated and nice handles, etc??)
Burns most biomass fuels

And this is NOT an April Fools joke. It really does work. I have made and tested two of them.

Think of layers of tin cans, each can has about a 6 minch diameter and a 7 minch height.

(Oh, by the way, I like the metric system, so I have invented the “minch” unit, which is a
METRIC inch.).
One minch is exactly 2.50000 centimeters (not the 2.5415…..cm in the English inch, which probably should be called an “einch” )

So multiply the minch measurements by 2.5 and you have the centimeter sizes.

4 minch = 10 cm
5 minch = 12.5 cm
6 minch = 15 cm
7 minch = 17.5 cm
8 minch = 20 cm
40 minch = 1 meter
and 0.4 minch = 1 cm.

Anyway, back to the stove
1. The lower or bottom unit is a tin can (I prefer a “gallon paint can” because it comes with a lip at the top edge) with about 6 minch diameter, open at the top, and with plenty of air holes at bottom or around the lower outside edge. It would be nice if this lower can could be about 10 minch tall (see #2 below)

2. Insert a “basket grate” (ala Crispin) that is open at the top (diameter just under 6 minch) and has a lip that seals reasonably well with the top of the lower can (#1). The bucket height needs to match – ( that is, fit inside) - the lower can. I like Crispin’s basket grate that is about 9 minch high, so I needed to have an elongated lower tin can for one of my initial stoves. I made a longer can by taping a second can underneath.

3. The basket gate is sealed in its lower ¾ of length, and only the top quarter has air holes in the side walls. This means that air that enters the bottom of the tincan is able to rise up the outside of the basket (thereby being warmed) and then that air enters into the upper part of the basket as SECONDARY air to be mixed with the gasification gases that are being generated below in the basket.

4. At the bottom of the basket grate is an airpipe the allows primary air to enter at the bottom of the biomass fuel supply. The air goes upward to the gasification (pyrolysis) zone that is gradually burning downward after being TOP LIGHTED. All of this is ala Reed-Larson and their IDD unit, except that the holes for the secondary air are in this lower unit, not provided by a gap between the gasifier and the burner. In other words, the gases are burned in the upper part of the basket grate.

5. Enter the Rocket Stove. Basically I made an OPEN-BOTTOM small rocket stove to place on top of the lower unit (#1-3). I used a same-size tin can and placed a wire grid at the bottom (top keep the chunky fuel from falling through the bottom) and a side hole for inserting fuel pieces. (My experiment had NO insulation or second layer or shield around the rocket unit, so in my -5 degree C environment, you can imagine how much efficiency I was loosing !!!! )

6. ABOVE the top of the rocket stove I could place an additional ring (for more chimney effect) or place a holder for the pot of water. That holder is want I will call the “cooking spot” or the “cooking level”. I envision that in a real stove, the cooking spot will be independently supported by bricks or metal or whatever, and could look like the top of a stove with “burners” coming from underneath and/or with a hot metal plate and a hot-water tank and whatever else the cook wants. In other words, the heat generation containers would NOT be required to support the weight of the cooking pots. And therefore the heat generation containers can be inserted and removed from the area (a chamber?) that is below the cooking spot.

7. And an extra: I rigged up a bicycle tire pump to be able to force air into the air pipe that provides the primary air to the gasifier. I did not need it, but it let me play with some “forced convection” options.

8. I could give more details on how I made one “basket grate” that fit into a gallon paint can. I rolled some sheet metal, closed off the bottom, punched some holes for the secondary air passages, added an air-pipe, and stuck it into the paint can, sealing for air leaks as best as possible.

9. Fire dynamics observed:
a. By itself, the lower unit (the gasifier) has the characteristics of the NC (natural convection) IDD unit of Reed-Larson. Not much draft. Languishing flames. Nice but not sufficient to cook a real meal as currently configured by itself.

b. The gasifier was loaded several times, mainly with the wood pellets commercially available in the USA for pellet stoves. I consider those pellets (diameter 0.5 cm and variable lengths of 1 to 2 cm) to be too small. I think they block too much the flow of the air in the NC gasifier. I am seeking some more “chunky” fuel, maybe 1 x 1 cm to 2 x 2 cm sizes). I did sometimes mix in some sticks and some locust tree seed-pods and some birch-bark (wow! for b-b) just for seeing some impact. I am NOT measureing fuel quantities. I just want to get an acceptable fire, then we can measure the heck out of it.

c. Into the Rocket unit, I placed various stuff. Mainly twigs and broken pieces of briquettes, and once a full Legacy briquette with center hole. Everything burned VERY well.

d. Imagine the secondary flames for the gasifier unit licking at the bottom of the fuel in the Rocket stove. I hardly needed to think of lighting the rocket area. The fire quickly went to minimal smoke, with shooting flames that would make any cook-in-a-hurry a happy person. In fact, I was more concerned about cutting back the fire!! I noticed great action in the gasifier unit. The flames above must have been pulling in a draft of primary air. I only played a little with trying to limit the primary air via the air-pipe.

e. After the initial blaze with the rocket unit working great, those rocket flames could be continued via the side-feeder hole, or allowed to extinguish themselves. Then the gasifier continued to put out nice moderate heat that could keep a slow boil going. (Remember that I was outside, below freezing, and snowing slightly, and with no insulation on my stove, so do not ask me for more than these “impressions” of what is “moderate”, etc.)

f. When flames were gone from the gasifier, I tried the air pump. I had a virtual forge in operation with glowing coals that eventually burned through some of my makeshift metal materials! To consume in the stove or remove the charcoal is an open option.

10. Discussion:

It seems to work very well as a combination of our various technologies.

Cheap at twice the price.

Subject to MANY variations and refinements, including issues such as diameter of unit, and nature of the basket-grate, and control of air in the air-pipe.

The stove really does bring together stove components from several people. And that is why I chose the name “Juntos”. I can imagine seeing variations to be called Juntos-2 and Juntos-3 and Juntos-3.C.7. I consider the “Juntos” name to be copyrighted for this style of stoves because the stove has potential to make it into production. If you want a generic name, call them “combination stoves.”

Likewise, I and we all must respect that the “Rocket Stove” is an Aprovecho name and product, so I should be referring to a “lower-side loading stove” or whatever.

I invite everyone to participate with this stove design work.

Crispin, I will probably be making an order for some basket grates to my specifications, so you can start thinking of what the prices could be and what materials you recommend.

I hope to have enough refinements by February to seriously consider production of 10 or 100 for my March trip to southern Africa.

Pictures? Not needed. Crispin and Dean and Richard and Tom+Ron all have their websites to see the component parts. All I had in the back yard looked like 2 or 3 paint cans stacked on top of each other, with flames at the top.

Sincerely,

Paul

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Dec 31 11:03:23 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (psanders@ilstu.edu)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: Stoves plans for Jo-burg world conference
Message-ID: <530131400.1009814610380.JavaMail.root@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

We need to discuss who is going to the big UN conference in Jo-burg, South Africa in the first week of September 2002 (THIS year).

I expect to be there, and I would certainly like to have some "stoves" representation. I imagine that "booths" in the NGO area are already being planned. Anyone have any info on that?

Can "stoves" join in with some other entity? Is Crest going to be there? People, booth, both??

Happy new year to you all.

Paul

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni Mon Dec 31 14:04:13 2001
From: rmiranda at sdnnic.org.ni (Rogerio Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: Down draft stoves are grate!
In-Reply-To: <001001c19103$c423e260$6c15210c@default>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011231124604.00e663d0@205.218.248.130>

Dean, Ron, Peter Verhaart and stoves,

As you know, since the year 2000 we are manufacturing Ecostoves here in
Nicaragua using as the burner, the rocket stove. So far over 2,000 units
has been sold.

I wonder if we should move toward a down draft burner?

from this discussion I understand that DDS it will be easier to operate,
requiring less frequently fueling. The women will appreciate that, since
they notice that the rocket requiere a more frequent fueling than open fire.

Besides being a cleaner burner, will it also be more efficient? (please
notice that in the ecostove there is no direct contact between flames and
the pot, but trough the plancha). It is quite similar to Peter Verhaart DD
barbecue.

What will be the positive and negative points for the users?

I think the women can easily adapt to a new technique to fire a DDS, since
they learned to fire the rocket stove.

One comment about the coal falling under the fire in the rocket stove. We
see here that it does a lot of good to the fire. Hot coals under the fire
increase significantly the combustion. It radiates heat, and the fire
burners hotter and cleaner. For instance we recommend to our customers to
use charcoal to ignite the Ecostove, since it forms coals and quickly set
the stove going.

Happy new year to everyone, and hope that 2002 more excited discussions
will happen in this list, and we will continue to make a fast development
of stoves science and dissemination, as we have done in the past few years
since the creation of the stove list.

Rogerio

At 11:28 p.m. 28/12/01 -0800, you wrote:
> Rocket stoves started out using the
>downfeed/downdraft feed magazine pattern because it is more efficient.
>Why? Because 1.) a easily controlled amount of air is appreciably warmed
>as it is sucked down into the fire and then 2.) gases pass right over the
>hot bed of coals cleaning up emissions. Coals fall in front of the sticks
>into the flame path.

It
>requires learning a new way of lighting the stove and the fire is down in
>the bottom of a tube. So, Larry uses sidefeed although the coals fall into
>the wrong place, under the fire, where they don't do as much good.

I like
>downdraft/downfeed myself : you don't have to bend over to place the
>sticks in the fire or check its condition. And you can use really long
>sticks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rogério Carneiro de Miranda
Director, Ecofogones y Reposición Forestal
PROLEÑA/Nicaragua
Apartado Postal C-321
Managua, Nicaragua
TELEFAX (505) 249 0116
EMAIL: rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Mon Dec 31 14:59:49 2001
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: Juntos (together) stove !!! This works!!
In-Reply-To: <530055645.1009814289856.JavaMail.root@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <OE744JlmSFWhMzQX7Iw0000b24b@hotmail.com>

Very appropriate stoves note Paul - however I found formatting tags included
in your messaging very distracting. What format was your note sent in? I would
like to read it as intended, before sent. Checking the archive for an html
version didn't help much, so I converted to text format and removed tags
manually (which was laborious). I hope you don't mind if I resubmit your
offering again here, making perhaps, easier reading.

- Chris Smith
__________

Juntos ("together") Stove report.

This is a new design and it works in initial trials. After my December Africa
trip, I am back in frozen Illinois doing stove design work. Ambient temperature
20 F ( -5 C), snow fluries, light wind, unprotected/unshielded stove and
aluminum pot, and I boiled a liter of water in 5 minutes. I am happy (but also
glad to get indoors to write the report). I have already named my new stove.
Juntos means together in Portuguese (with a soft sound like that in protégé. Or
in Spanish with the sound like in a political junta, making it sound like
hoontos but not hunt-tos. In either language, it still means together and is
understandable by English speakers because of the junta term.

Components of the Juntos stove:

1. Basket-shaped metal grate ala New Dawn Crispin PP

2. Rocket stove (small version) ala Aprovecho Dean Stills

3. True gasification unit ala Reed-Larson

4. Can burn briquettes ala Legacy Richard Stanley

5. Air-pipe ala Paul Anderson Includes pre-heated secondary air, TOP lighting
AND BOTTOM lighting sections, Fast initial heat, Long-term slow heat Smoke-less
when operational, almost smokeless at start-up. Tincanium materials with
probable mud and brick options, Projected cost to be under $10 per unit, maybe
under $3 if not counting local labor and materials But we could also have the
top of the line model with $100 value (chrome plated and nice handles, etc??)
Burns most biomass fuels And this is NOT an April Fools joke. It really does
work. I have made and tested two of them. Think of layers of tin cans, each
can has about a 6 minch diameter and a 7 minch height. (Oh, by the way, I like
the metric system, so I have invented the unit, which is a METRIC inch.). One
minch is exactly 2.50000 centimeters (not the 2.5415 cm in the English inch,
which probably should be called an einch). So multiply the minch measurements
by 2.5 and you have the centimeter sizes.

4 minch = 10 cm
5 minch = 12.5 cm
6 minch = 15 cm
7 minch = 17.5 cm
8 minch = 20 cm
40 minch = 1 meter
...and 0.4 minch = 1 cm.

Anyway, back to the stove

1. The lower or bottom unit is a tin can (I prefer a gallon paint can because
it comes with a lip at the top edge) with about 6 minch diameter, open at the
top, and with plenty of air holes at bottom or around the lower outside edge.
It would be nice if this lower can could be about 10 minch tall (see #2 below)

2. Insert a basket grate (ala Crispin) that is open at the top (diameter just
under 6 minch) and has a lip that seals reasonably well with the top of the
lower can (#1). The bucket height needs to match (that is, fit inside) - the
lower can. I like Crispin's basket grate that is about 9 minch high, so I
needed to have an elongated lower tin can for one of my initial stoves. I made
a longer can by taping a second can underneath.

3. The basket gate is sealed in its lower ¾ of length, and only the top quarter
has air holes in the side walls. This means that air that enters the bottom of
the tincan is able to rise up the outside of the basket (thereby being warmed)
and then that air enters into the upper part of the basket as SECONDARY air to
be mixed with the gasification gases that are being generated below in the
basket.

4. At the bottom of the basket grate is an airpipe the allows primary air to
enter at the bottom of the biomass fuel supply. The air goes upward to the
gasification (pyrolysis) zone that is gradually burning downward after being TOP
LIGHTED. All of this is ala Reed-Larson and their IDD unit, except that the
holes for the secondary air are in this lower unit, not provided by a gap
between the gasifier and the burner. In other words, the gases are burned in
the upper part of the basket grate.

5. Enter the Rocket Stove. Basically I made an OPEN-BOTTOM small rocket stove
to place on top of the lower unit (#1-3). I used a same-size tin can and placed
a wire grid at the bottom (top keep the chunky fuel from falling through the
bottom) and a side hole for inserting fuel pieces. (My experiment had NO
insulation or second layer or shield around the rocket unit, so in my -5 degree
C environment, you can imagine how much efficiency I was loosing !!!!)

6. ABOVE the top of the rocket stove I could place an additional ring (for more
chimney effect) or place a holder for the pot of water. That holder is want I
will call the cooking spot or the cooking level I envision that in a real stove,
the cooking spot will be independently supported by bricks or metal or whatever,
and could look like the top of a stove with burners coming from underneath
and/or with a hot metal plate and a hot-water tank and whatever else the cook
wants. In other words, the heat generation containers would NOT be required to
support the weight of the cooking pots. And therefore the heat generation
containers can be inserted and removed from the area (a chamber?) that is below
the cooking spot.

7. And an extra: I rigged up a bicycle tire pump to be able to force air into
the air pipe that provides the primary air to the gasifier. I did not need it,
but it let me play with some forced convection options.

8. I could give more details on how I made one basket grate that fit into a
gallon paint can. I rolled some sheet metal, closed off the bottom, punched
some holes for the secondary air passages, added an air-pipe, and stuck it into
the paint can, sealing for air leaks as best as possible.

9. Fire dynamics observed:

a. By itself, the lower unit (the gasifier) has the characteristics of the
NC (natural convection) IDD unit of Reed-Larson. Not much draft. Languishing
flames. Nice but not sufficient to cook a real meal as currently configured by
itself.

b. The gasifier was loaded several times, mainly with the wood pellets
commercially available in the USA for pellet stoves. I consider those pellets
(diameter 0.5 cm and variable lengths of 1 to 2 cm) to be too small. I think
they block too much the flow of the air in the NC gasifier. I am seeking some
more chunky fuel, maybe 1 x 1 cm to 2 x 2 cm sizes). I did sometimes mix in
some sticks and some locust tree seed-pods and some birch-bark (wow! for b-b)
just for seeing some impact. I am NOT measuring fuel quantities. I just want
to get an acceptable fire, then we can measure the heck out of it.

c. Into the Rocket unit, I placed various stuff. Mainly twigs and broken
pieces of briquettes, and once a full Legacy briquette with center hole.
Everything burned VERY well.

d. Imagine the secondary flames for the gasifier unit licking at the
bottom of the fuel in the Rocket stove. I hardly needed to think of lighting
the rocket area. The fire quickly went to minimal smoke, with shooting flames
that would make any cook-in-a-hurry a happy person. In fact, I was more
concerned about cutting back the fire!! I noticed great action in the gasifier
unit. The flames above must have been pulling in a draft of primary air. I
only played a little with trying to limit the primary air via the air-pipe.

e. After the initial blaze with the rocket unit working great, those
rocket flames could be continued via the side-feeder hole, or allowed to
extinguish themselves. Then the gasifier continued to put out nice moderate
heat that could keep a slow boil going. (Remember that I was outside, below
freezing, and snowing slightly, and with no insulation on my stove, so do not
ask me for more than these impressions of what is moderate, etc.).

f. When flames were gone from the gasifier, I tried the air pump. I had a
virtual forge in operation with glowing coals that eventually burned through
some of my makeshift metal materials! To consume in the stove or remove the
charcoal is an open option.

10. Discussion: It seems to work very well as a combination of our various
technologies. Cheap at twice the price. Subject to MANY variations and
refinements, including issues such as diameter of unit, and nature of the
basket-grate, and control of air in the air-pipe. The stove really does bring
together stove components from several people. And that is why I chose the name
Juntos. I can imagine seeing variations to be called Juntos-2 and Juntos-3 and
Juntos-3.C.7.

I consider the Juntos name to be copyrighted for this style of stoves because
the stove has potential to make it into production. If you want a generic name,
call them combination stoves. Likewise, I and we all must respect that the
Rocket Stove is an Aprovecho name and product, so I should be referring to a
lower-side loading stove or whatever. I invite everyone to participate with
this stove design work. Crispin, I will probably be making an order for some
basket grates to my specifications, so you can start thinking of what the prices
could be and what materials you recommend. I hope to have enough refinements by
February to seriously consider production of 10 or 100 for my March trip to
southern Africa. Pictures? Not needed. Crispin and Dean and Richard and
Tom+Ron all have their websites to see the component parts. All I had in the
back yard looked like 2 or 3 paint cans stacked on top of each other, with
flames at the top.

Sincerely, Paul

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

From legacyfound at hotmail.com Mon Dec 31 19:12:49 2001
From: legacyfound at hotmail.com (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: Juntos (together) stove !!! This works!!
Message-ID: <F267YOwNqOquAE69ifZ0000f2a0@hotmail.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20011231/33bd2205/attachment.html
From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Dec 31 19:23:13 2001
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:31 2004
Subject: Down draft stoves are grate!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011231124604.00e663d0@205.218.248.130>
Message-ID: <3C310151.CC38E7EE@cybershamanix.com>

Arrrgghh! I've been trying to find the info about the "downdraft"
cookstove that was posted here awhile back. It was rather unique, had a
small "hopper" on one end for wood chips, pellets, etc. then a flat
cooking section leading to a chimney. There was some discussion on
whether or not it was actually a gasifier, and, I think, the consensus
was that it wasn't, since it had no secondary air port.
Can anyone point me to that thread or the name?

At the moment, I'm reeking of wood smoke, having fired up a new double
barrel woodstove which is in serious need of induced draft! Also just
bought a new MIG welder and a drill press so I can have more fun playing
with stoves and gasifiers.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/current/
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html

Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>

For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

December 2001 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive