October 2001 Gasification Archive

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Oct 1 18:55:20 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:08 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <14b.1d73ba2.28e9e2ea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000801c14ace$570442e0$4750c5cb@vsnl.net.in>

Dear Daniel,
we have exchanged so many notes, that I do not know which one you are
refering to. Unfortunately, as an end-on the-month ritual, I deleted all
the
correspondence of September. What does the word "green" in your message
refer to? It reminds me of a wild berry that grows in Germany. It is red
when unripe and turns dark blue or almost black when ripe. Children are told
not to eat the red berries, because they are still "green". Are you refering
to moist material, when you say "green"? In the process of pyrolysis, the
material not only gets dry but also charred. It is wetted again in order to
make briquettes out of it, but the briquettes are dried in sunlight before
using them. I assume that would still have about 10% moisture in them.
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: carbonisation

> Mr. Karve,
> Couldn't have stated my case better myself. So you do a form of
> continuous processing? How about that dryness factor? Is all green gone
> from the biomass before cooking?
> Daniel Dimiduk
>

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Oct 1 20:26:31 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:08 2004
Subject: carbonisation
Message-ID: <75.1bee3e13.28ea62a2@aol.com>

Mr.Karve,
When I spoke of green I was refering to the unseasoned waste. Here in
Ohio we let wood go a full year ideally before we burn it. The seasoning
process is not just to remove water, but to remove nitrogen and some
potassium as well. Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.
In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some extra time
for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and the
efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off. In
effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost now to boiling
the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame temprature
will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you know, it takes
a lot of energy to boil water.
I try to keep the good letters filed, but you can't save em'all.
Does this answer your question? Help?
Daniel Dimiduk

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 2 00:07:02 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Kilns for India bagasse
In-Reply-To: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011001224232.017f7800@mail.ilstu.edu>

AD and Nick and others,

As per your letter (reprinted below), at Rs50 = US$ 1.00, you need US$100
per kiln of the basic kind, and $200 for the regular,

[[ and $300 for the special (stainless steel barrels), but those are not of
interest to me until proven to be worth the money ]],

And you would like to set up a pilot with 10 kilns which MIGHT even pay
back the investor / donor. I deal with donors who want the money to be
"recirculated" to build more of the kilns.

I am sure I can find between $1000 and $2000 for this pilot
project. ESPECIALLY if it becomes a "microenterprise" and a community
bank project.

But I do have some questions

When is the next bagasse season?

Do the kilns last for several years?

Are you ready to start soon?

I am just now reading some older messages I missed last week.

I leave in 30 hours to Africa, so I will be an infrequent reader and writer.

Please keep up the discussion and I will try to catch up in late October.

Paul

Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:21:07 +0530
From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Subject: Re: Stoves-kilns-bagasse-India
To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
Message-id: <000001c147b7$4fe85ce0$7751c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
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<4.3.1.2.20010924143721.00d20f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
<4.3.1.2.20010927085852.00b76f00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Dear Paul,
1 US$ is roughly equal to 50 Indian Rupees. One kiln and extruder unit,
capable of producing about 100 kg char briquettes per day would cost about
Rs.40,000. The extruder is however not obligatory, as the char powder can
be shaped into fuel balls even manually. A crude kiln, just a hollow chamber
without the retorts would cost very little, just about Rs. 5000. The family
operating a 100 kg per day unit would earn an income of about Rs. 3000 per
week. The briquettes need sunshine to dry. Therefore the family can work
for about 35 weeks in a year, and earn about Rs. 100,000 Rupees in a year,
which is as good an income as a whitecollar worker in a city. Sugarcane is
harvested for about 25 weeks, so the major raw material can be dry sugarcane
leaves. Currently we have only one prototype, which we have shown to
officials of several banks. However, because the concept is new, and
because there is no ready market for the briquettes, the potential
entrepreneurs as well as the bankers are hesitant to finance this project.
The fact that we use the char as potting medium, is a different matter. The
entrepreneurs would be willing to give it a try, if they get a unit free of
cost.
Charcoal was the prefered fuel in India, about 50 years ago, but in order to
protect the trees, our government banned charcoal making and made kerosene
available at a very cheap rate. But recently, the subsidy was withdrawn.
The poor now use wood (Rs.2 per kg) instead of kerosene (Rs. 13 per kg). Our
briquettes would be available for about Rs. 6 to 7 per kg. If people used
our stove-and-cooker system, tailored for the use of briquettes, they would
we able to cook the food
requiring 3kg wood with just 100g of char briquettes. The cooker as well as
the briquettes have a good potential market, but we have no money to
commercialise them.
This is not part of the Shell proposal.
I have attached information about our activities.

----- Original Message -----

At 06:51 AM 9/25/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
>Dear Paul,
>I leave it to Priya to answer the questions about the Shell Foundation,
>becasue she would be attending the meeting to be held from 11 to14 October.
>(1) Our kilns, designed to produce about 100 kg char per day, are made of
>bricks and mud. The kiln is to be erected in a sugarcane field by the
>operator himself. There are two models. One is a conventional model, which
>consists of just a tank-like structure having some air holes at the bottom.
>It is filled with dry sugarcane leaves, which are ignited from the top. A
>chimney fabricated from sheet iron is provided to take the smoke out and
>above the eye level of the operators. This model costs about Rs. 5,000. The
>second model is costly. It is based on the oven-and-retort process. In
>this case too the oven is a brick and mud structure erected in the field,
>but the leaves are loaded into barrels called retorts. The oven takes 7
>barrels. When the kiln is started, the dry leaves in the barrels produce
>gas, which they release at the level of the grate, where it burns. This
>adds to the heat. After the volatiles have been exhausted, the process
>stops and one can unload the barrels, now full of char. One can immediately
>load the next batch of barrels into the oven and start the next batch. The
>hardware cost of the oven-and-retort model is about Rs. 10,000, becasue one
>needs at least two sets of barrels. Each barrel costs about Rs. 400. The
>barrels get corroded very fast. We are seriously thinking of fabricating
>them out of stainless steel sheet. But that may raise the price of the
>entire system to about Rs. 15,000. The plans of providing such kilns to
>unemployed rural youth have still remained only plans. The entire concept
>is new. Neither entrepreneurs nor bankers like to venture into unknown
>territory. The potential entrepreneurs are therefore not ready to invest
>their own money, but are willing to operate the kiln if we gave them a kiln
>free of cost. In fact, we started out with the oven-and-retort process, but
>after we realised the financial difficulty of the operators, we developed
>the cheaper, more conventional kiln. We are on the lookout for financers,
>who may either donate the money for 10 sets of kilns or at least give it as
>a loan.
>(2) Our Institute is working not just on rural energy but on a whole lot of
>technologies, which would be very useful in any developing country. There
>are at least 15 new ideas in our brochure. We have already commercialised a
>few of them and the operators are earning good money with them. These days
>people are chairy about opening attachments to an E-mail. Would you like me
>to send you our brochure as an attachment?
>A.D.Karve

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Oct 2 05:46:16 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Kilns for charring sugarcane trash
In-Reply-To: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c14b29$464bce40$7482c7cb@vsnl.net.in>

Dear Paul,
your offer is most welcome. The sugarcane harvest begins in the first week
of November. Please note, that it is not bagasse but trash that we want to
char. Bagasse is the fibrous part of the cane. It is used as fuel in the
sugar factory itself . Sugar industry (using sugarcane, not beet) is
totally independant of outside sources of energy. Use of modern boilers and
other refined techniques, sugar factories use so little bagasse for their
own energy needs, that they produce electricity with the left over bagasse
and sell it to others. What we want to char are the dried leaves, called
trash, which are left in the field after the cane has been harvested.
I like the idea, that the kiln and extruder are loaned to the entrepreneurs.
After one of them has paid the money back to us, the next one in line gets
his unit, also as a loan. We are arrnanging with a rural co-operative to
market the briquettes. Alternatively, we don't give an extruder to the
entrepreneurs, but install a large extruder in our own premises, buy the
loose char from the kiln operators, make the briquettes in our unit, and
sell them. When the marketting is channelised, loan recovery would be easy.
The retorts (i.e.barrels) made of mild steel sheet corrode rather fast. I
don't think that they would last longer than a season. Daniel Dimduck has
given me some hints about prolonging their life, and we shall try them out.
Paul Hait of Pyromid suggested the use of stainless steel barrels. They are
mass produced in various shapes and sizes, for being used as storage of
potable water, food grains, etc. If purchased in bulk, they would not be all
that costly. We therefore want to keep that option open, if the cost can be
substantially reduced.
If we get about US$ 1000 in October, we can be ready with some kilns to be
distributed at the beginning of the sugarcane campaign in November. We have
already lined up 15 jobless youngsters who have access to sugarcane trash,
and who are keen to start the business.
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Nick Nayak
<nicholasnayak@aol.com>; Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>;
Apolinário J Malawene <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon
<bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto
Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:40 AM
Subject: Kilns for India bagasse

> AD and Nick and others,
>
> As per your letter (reprinted below), at Rs50 = US$ 1.00, you need US$100
> per kiln of the basic kind, and $200 for the regular,
>
> [[ and $300 for the special (stainless steel barrels), but those are not
of
> interest to me until proven to be worth the money ]],
>
> And you would like to set up a pilot with 10 kilns which MIGHT even pay
> back the investor / donor. I deal with donors who want the money to be
> "recirculated" to build more of the kilns.
>
> I am sure I can find between $1000 and $2000 for this pilot
> project. ESPECIALLY if it becomes a "microenterprise" and a community
> bank project.
>
> But I do have some questions
>
> When is the next bagasse season?
>
> Do the kilns last for several years?
>
> Are you ready to start soon?
>
> I am just now reading some older messages I missed last week.
>
> I leave in 30 hours to Africa, so I will be an infrequent reader and
writer.
>
> Please keep up the discussion and I will try to catch up in late October.
>
> Paul
>
> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:21:07 +0530
> From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Subject: Re: Stoves-kilns-bagasse-India
> To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> Message-id: <000001c147b7$4fe85ce0$7751c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
> MIME-version: 1.0
> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
> Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED;
BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_OxPGr03gELuDQOG6BuHfDw)"
> X-Priority: 3
> X-MSMail-priority: Normal
> References: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
> <4.3.1.2.20010924143721.00d20f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
> <4.3.1.2.20010927085852.00b76f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
>
> Dear Paul,
> 1 US$ is roughly equal to 50 Indian Rupees. One kiln and extruder unit,
> capable of producing about 100 kg char briquettes per day would cost about
> Rs.40,000. The extruder is however not obligatory, as the char powder can
> be shaped into fuel balls even manually. A crude kiln, just a hollow
chamber
> without the retorts would cost very little, just about Rs. 5000. The
family
> operating a 100 kg per day unit would earn an income of about Rs. 3000 per
> week. The briquettes need sunshine to dry. Therefore the family can work
> for about 35 weeks in a year, and earn about Rs. 100,000 Rupees in a year,
> which is as good an income as a whitecollar worker in a city. Sugarcane is
> harvested for about 25 weeks, so the major raw material can be dry
sugarcane
> leaves. Currently we have only one prototype, which we have shown to
> officials of several banks. However, because the concept is new, and
> because there is no ready market for the briquettes, the potential
> entrepreneurs as well as the bankers are hesitant to finance this project.
> The fact that we use the char as potting medium, is a different matter.
The
> entrepreneurs would be willing to give it a try, if they get a unit free
of
> cost.
> Charcoal was the prefered fuel in India, about 50 years ago, but in order
to
> protect the trees, our government banned charcoal making and made kerosene
> available at a very cheap rate. But recently, the subsidy was withdrawn.
> The poor now use wood (Rs.2 per kg) instead of kerosene (Rs. 13 per kg).
Our
> briquettes would be available for about Rs. 6 to 7 per kg. If people used
> our stove-and-cooker system, tailored for the use of briquettes, they
would
> we able to cook the food
> requiring 3kg wood with just 100g of char briquettes. The cooker as well
as
> the briquettes have a good potential market, but we have no money to
> commercialise them.
> This is not part of the Shell proposal.
> I have attached information about our activities.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
> At 06:51 AM 9/25/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> >Dear Paul,
> >I leave it to Priya to answer the questions about the Shell Foundation,
> >becasue she would be attending the meeting to be held from 11 to14
October.
> >(1) Our kilns, designed to produce about 100 kg char per day, are made of
> >bricks and mud. The kiln is to be erected in a sugarcane field by the
> >operator himself. There are two models. One is a conventional model,
which
> >consists of just a tank-like structure having some air holes at the
bottom.
> >It is filled with dry sugarcane leaves, which are ignited from the top.
A
> >chimney fabricated from sheet iron is provided to take the smoke out and
> >above the eye level of the operators. This model costs about Rs. 5,000.
The
> >second model is costly. It is based on the oven-and-retort process. In
> >this case too the oven is a brick and mud structure erected in the field,
> >but the leaves are loaded into barrels called retorts. The oven takes 7
> >barrels. When the kiln is started, the dry leaves in the barrels produce
> >gas, which they release at the level of the grate, where it burns. This
> >adds to the heat. After the volatiles have been exhausted, the process
> >stops and one can unload the barrels, now full of char. One can
immediately
> >load the next batch of barrels into the oven and start the next batch.
The
> >hardware cost of the oven-and-retort model is about Rs. 10,000, becasue
one
> >needs at least two sets of barrels. Each barrel costs about Rs. 400. The
> >barrels get corroded very fast. We are seriously thinking of fabricating
> >them out of stainless steel sheet. But that may raise the price of the
> >entire system to about Rs. 15,000. The plans of providing such kilns to
> >unemployed rural youth have still remained only plans. The entire
concept
> >is new. Neither entrepreneurs nor bankers like to venture into unknown
> >territory. The potential entrepreneurs are therefore not ready to invest
> >their own money, but are willing to operate the kiln if we gave them a
kiln
> >free of cost. In fact, we started out with the oven-and-retort process,
but
> >after we realised the financial difficulty of the operators, we developed
> >the cheaper, more conventional kiln. We are on the lookout for financers,
> >who may either donate the money for 10 sets of kilns or at least give it
as
> >a loan.
> >(2) Our Institute is working not just on rural energy but on a whole lot
of
> >technologies, which would be very useful in any developing country. There
> >are at least 15 new ideas in our brochure. We have already
commercialised a
> >few of them and the operators are earning good money with them. These
days
> >people are chairy about opening attachments to an E-mail. Would you like
me
> >to send you our brochure as an attachment?
> >A.D.Karve
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>

-
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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Oct 2 08:44:09 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <75.1bee3e13.28ea62a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000701c14b42$1edb5560$3d51c5cb@vsnl.net.in>

Dear Daniel,
we use dry leaves of sugarcane and not stems. During the process of
senescence, when the leaf is turning yellow, the plant removes most of the
nitrogen, phosphate and other important elements from the leaves, and sends
them to the green parts. What remains behind is just a lignified and
silicified skeleton. This is of course theory. I do not know actually how
much nitrogen and phosphate is left in the leaves. However, the fact that
the dry leaves of sugarcane are extremely hard to decompose (taking almost 8
months, if buried underground, and almost 5 months if left above ground
after treatment with cultures of decomposing organisms) and the fact that
cattle do not eat them, indicates that they may not have nutrients left in
them. The yellowed leaves are however not shed, but are left attached to the
stem of sugarcane. With this arrangement, by individually hanging them out,
the plant sees to it that are nicely dried. At the time of harvest, the dry
leaves are manually separated from the stem and left in the field. The
green tops of sugarcane are used as cattle fodder, but not the dry leaves.
The dry leaves are about 1 meter long, extremely tough and springy. After
harvest, they form an almost 20 cm thick layer on the field, which
interferes with post harvest operations like ploughing, harrowing (wheels of
the tractor slip over them, and the leaves clog the tynes of the harrow) or
with irrigating the field for a ratoon crop (the crop that grows again from
the stubble of the harvested one). Removing this trash from the field by
using human labour is too costly. Therefore, the farmer gets rid of the
layer of dry leaves lying in his field by just burning them in situ. Each
hectare produces about 10 tonnes of such leaves. They would yield 2 tonnes
of briquettes, having a market value of almost Rs. 13,000. When the
possibility exists of converting the trash into money, manual or mechanical
removal of the trash becomes affordable. By hiring a tractor-drawn harrow,
it costs just Rs. 750 per hectare to drag the leaves to one side of the
field. The charring kiln is constructed in the field itself, using bricks
and mud, and by working day and night, the leaves are converted into char.
Only the char is transported to the briquette making factory. Maharashtra
(our state) has 450,000 hectares of sugarcane, which generates 4.5 million
tonnes of dry leaves. Our process of charring can convert this material
into 900,000 tonnes of char briquettes every year, to generate an income of
almost 6 million Rupees annually. (1 U.S.$= Rs.50).
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: carbonisation

> Mr.Karve,
> When I spoke of green I was refering to the unseasoned waste. Here in
> Ohio we let wood go a full year ideally before we burn it. The seasoning
> process is not just to remove water, but to remove nitrogen and some
> potassium as well. Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
> it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.
> In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some extra time
> for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and the
> efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off. In
> effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost now to
boiling
> the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame temprature
> will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you know, it
takes
> a lot of energy to boil water.
> I try to keep the good letters filed, but you can't save em'all.
> Does this answer your question? Help?
> Daniel Dimiduk
>
> -
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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Tue Oct 2 09:23:07 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <75.1bee3e13.28ea62a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEOENBDCAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>

Dear Daniel

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carefreeland@aol.com [mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:22 PM
> To: adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: carbonisation
>
....del...

> Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
> it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.

Could you please elaborate on this??? What kinds of poisons would one expect
from fresh green wood that one would not get from aged, dried wood??

> In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some
> extra time
> for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and the
> efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off. In
> effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost
> now to boiling
> the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame
> temprature
> will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you
> know, it takes
> a lot of energy to boil water.

Aside from "efficiency loss" associated with the need to boil water, there
will be a very significant yield loss, as the water vapor chemically attacks
the carbon: C = H2O --> CO + H2

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Oct 2 09:52:33 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
Message-ID: <37.1bb5a3d4.28eb1f6f@aol.com>

Mr. Karve,
It sounds to me like you have all of the key points of preparation
covered. Maybe a finnish drying process, to remove any remaining moisture by
waste heat from the process could give a slight gain. You can also make a
solar heated drying area with a rain tarp angled open toward the sun. Test
your moisture content by weighing a sample, then cook it at F140 until it
stops loosing weight. The difference is your moisture content minus maybe 2%.
Our focus for any improvement must be on the burning gas, and the focus
of all radiant heat onto the barrels. Then we must look at the heat coming
off the top of the process, and see how much we can focus this back into the
barrels. The object being, to have cool flue gasses with the heat only
coming out when the barrels do.
Can you use an insulating layer in the construction of the clay and earth
stoves like a hollow core or vermiculite core wall? Even sand insulates
better than clay. Try a quartz sand bottom in the firebox. Cupolas for iron
melting use this to reach F 3000. Your ground may be damp as well.
We can look at the availability of oxygen, and even increasing the stove
temperature to facilitate quicker heat transfer. A possible way to do this
would be to preheat incoming air by running the draft through tubes in the
firebox. Seal the stove and add a chimney, even a short one would strengthen
the draft.
How much smoke does the stove produce when fully hot? Is the smoke any
particular smell?
Another Idea on this corrosion problem. I have held most of my original
paint on my 10lb propane cylinder through two test runs. Talk to your most
knowledgeable paint man about high temp coatings like stove or motor paints.
Buy a small quantity and test a spot on a barrel. Try not to use paint with a
toxic smoke such as heavy metals. Even if the paint only sticks to the
cooler parts of the barrels it will be less to oil. Until you can afford
stainless.
Some combination of the above should give you some increase in
efficiency. Just try the easiest ones first. Is there any way to determine
the original carbon content of the leaves? Maybe you only have 30% to work
with in the leaves, and you are doing your best? Look at steadying the
flame, and fine tuning the proper time to pull the barrels from the heat.
Measure stove temp to regulate as constant as possible.
Try using a test barrel of wood for testing the process. See what your
efficiancy is with other material to compare to down draft pyrolisis.
Good Luck, Keep me posted on any improvements,
Daniel Dimiduk

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Oct 2 10:10:05 2001
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
Message-ID: <12e.56805fc.28eb23ac@aol.com>

Kevin,
The poisen smoke from green wood (or biomass) ranges from CO, carbon
monoxide from incomplete combustion, to NH4 Ammonia, hydrogen cianide,
nitrogen oxides, and VOC's or volital organic compounds. Some from the
presents of nitrogen, some from incomplete combustion.
Good dry cellulose(wood) burned clean, releases CO2 + H2O.
You have made a very good point that the moisture increases the reduction
of the carbon. Another reaction is C + H20 = CH4 + 02 = CO2+ H20 The
feedstock for this process must be very dry for best results. Add moisture,
get less carbon. Thanks for the good point.
Daniel Dimiduk

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From harrick at sinfo.net Tue Oct 2 11:08:47 2001
From: harrick at sinfo.net (B. Harrick)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHHHOLFOEGCILKHEOENBDCAA.kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
Message-ID: <002101c14b53$ca733080$1207dbd8@cableonda.net>

I am a quiet reader of the stoves list.
Can someone tell me if green wood does produces poisenous gases when it is
burned?
Thanks
B. Harrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchishol@fox.nstn.ca>
To: <Carefreeland@aol.com>; <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: carbonisation

> Dear Daniel
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Carefreeland@aol.com [mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com]
> > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:22 PM
> > To: adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in; stoves@crest.org
> > Subject: Re: carbonisation
> >
> ....del...
>
> > Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
> > it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.
>
> Could you please elaborate on this??? What kinds of poisons would one
expect
> from fresh green wood that one would not get from aged, dried wood??
>
> > In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some
> > extra time
> > for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and the
> > efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off. In
> > effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost
> > now to boiling
> > the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame
> > temprature
> > will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you
> > know, it takes
> > a lot of energy to boil water.
>
> Aside from "efficiency loss" associated with the need to boil water, there
> will be a very significant yield loss, as the water vapor chemically
attacks
> the carbon: C = H2O --> CO + H2
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
>
>
>
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 2 13:26:33 2001
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Financing KILNS for charring sugarcane trash
In-Reply-To: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20011002114539.00e56340@mail.ilstu.edu>

Sandra and Nick, (with copy to Stoves list so you can see what is
happening and maybe even assist.)

Sandra is the District Governor of my Rotary District 6490 in east central
Illinois. She has control (subject to her Board's approvals) over some
money called DDF (District Designated Funds) and also funds in the District
6490 Charities Foundation. Those should NOT be thought of as large amounts.

Dear Sandra (with food for thought for Nick, who might want to call Sandra
directly),

I tried to phone you, but you are on the road a lot with your District
Governor duties. Because I fly out of here in 15 hours (for 3 weeks in
Africa), I am reverting to e-mail to present a case for the following:

Proposal: That the Rotary District (or its district foundation) provide
the sum of US$1000 for the "kilns for char" project to be conducted by the
Appropriate Rural Technology Insititute (ARTI) in the area of Pune, India,
as per the request in the message below from Dr. A.D. Karve. The money
needs to be sent to India in early October, and can be delivered by Dr. Ron
Larson to Dr. Priya Karve in early October (in London), or it could be
transferred by some other means.

Here are the options as I see them (and that I hope you will accept):

Option 1: That the District 6490 resources be
used. Period. Done. Congratulations on a worthy project.

Option 2: That District 6490 provide the $1000 with the understanding that
the full amount (or some stated part of it) is to be reimbursed by
volunteer donors making tax-deductible donations to the District 6490
Charities Foundation, c/o DG Sandra Broadrick-Allen, 3102 South First
Street, Champaign, Illinois, USA 61822 (e-mail contact:
Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>

Clincher (I hope): If the $1000 is provided for the project by the
District or its foundation, and if donations to cover that amount are not
equal to that amount, then I, Paul S. Anderson, do personally assume the
responsibility to pay the difference, being up to $1000, no later than 15
December 2001.

If more than $1000 is collected, then the surplus money will also be
directed towards stoves-related appropriate projects.

Sandra, Sorry if I am appear hasty and pushy, but I have too little time at
this crucial moment. I might not even receive any reply from you before I
travel. I hope you can see a way to make this happen.

Sandra, Please post a response to ALL of the people who are receiving THIS
message so that they will know if donations could be received and at what
address. If the proposed action canNOT be done, simply say so and I will
try to resolve the issue some other way, but I will be rather late and into
November.

To ANY reader: If you have an alternative way to provide the money to ARTI
(via Ron Larson or other means), please inform the other readers.

To AD Karve: I sure hope this can be accomplished. And we will be
counting on you for detailed reporting on the progress and impact of the
project.

Thanks in advance to everyone,

Paul

(messages below are lengthy but give valuable information in case anyone
needs to send this information to others beyond our Stoves listserve.)

At 02:53 PM 10/2/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
>Dear Paul,
>Your offer [below, not above] is most welcome. The sugarcane harvest
>begins in the first week
>of November. Please note, that it is not bagasse but trash that we want to
>char. [ PSA: Sorry, a slip by me. I do know the difference.] Bagasse is
>the fibrous part of the cane. It is used as fuel in the
>sugar factory itself . Sugar industry (using sugarcane, not beet) is
>totally independant of outside sources of energy. Use of modern boilers and
>other refined techniques, sugar factories use so little bagasse for their
>own energy needs, that they produce electricity with the left over bagasse
>and sell it to others. What we want to char are the dried leaves, called
>trash, which are left in the field after the cane has been harvested.
>I like the idea, that the kiln and extruder are loaned to the entrepreneurs.
>After one of them has paid the money back to us, the next one in line gets
>his unit, also as a loan. We are arrnanging with a rural co-operative to
>market the briquettes. Alternatively, we don't give an extruder to the
>entrepreneurs, but install a large extruder in our own premises, buy the
>loose char from the kiln operators, make the briquettes in our unit, and
>sell them. When the marketting is channelised, loan recovery would be easy.
>The retorts (i.e.barrels) made of mild steel sheet corrode rather fast. I
>don't think that they would last longer than a season. Daniel Dimduck has
>given me some hints about prolonging their life, and we shall try them out.
>Paul Hait of Pyromid suggested the use of stainless steel barrels. They are
>mass produced in various shapes and sizes, for being used as storage of
>potable water, food grains, etc. If purchased in bulk, they would not be all
>that costly. We therefore want to keep that option open, if the cost can be
>substantially reduced.
>If we get about US$ 1000 in October, we can be ready with some kilns to be
>distributed at the beginning of the sugarcane campaign in November. We have
>already lined up 15 jobless youngsters who have access to sugarcane trash,
>and who are keen to start the business.
>A.D.Karve
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
>To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Nick Nayak
><nicholasnayak@aol.com>; Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>;
>Apolinário J Malawene <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon
><bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto
>Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>
>Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:40 AM
>Subject: Kilns for India bagasse
>
>
> > AD and Nick and others,
> >
> > As per your letter (reprinted below), at Rs50 = US$ 1.00, you need US$100
> > per kiln of the basic kind, and $200 for the regular,
> >
> > [[ and $300 for the special (stainless steel barrels), but those are not
>of
> > interest to me until proven to be worth the money ]],
> >
> > And you would like to set up a pilot with 10 kilns which MIGHT even pay
> > back the investor / donor. I deal with donors who want the money to be
> > "recirculated" to build more of the kilns.
> >
> > I am sure I can find between $1000 and $2000 for this pilot
> > project. ESPECIALLY if it becomes a "microenterprise" and a community
> > bank project.
> >
> > But I do have some questions
> >
> > When is the next bagasse season?
> >
> > Do the kilns last for several years?
> >
> > Are you ready to start soon?
> >
> > I am just now reading some older messages I missed last week.
> >
> > I leave in 30 hours to Africa, so I will be an infrequent reader and
>writer.
> >
> > Please keep up the discussion and I will try to catch up in late October.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:21:07 +0530
> > From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> > Subject: Re: Stoves-kilns-bagasse-India
> > To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> > Message-id: <000001c147b7$4fe85ce0$7751c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
> > MIME-version: 1.0
> > X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
> > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
> > Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED;
>BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_OxPGr03gELuDQOG6BuHfDw)"
> > X-Priority: 3
> > X-MSMail-priority: Normal
> > References: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
> > <4.3.1.2.20010924143721.00d20f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
> > <4.3.1.2.20010927085852.00b76f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
> >
> > Dear Paul,
> > 1 US$ is roughly equal to 50 Indian Rupees. One kiln and extruder unit,
> > capable of producing about 100 kg char briquettes per day would cost about
> > Rs.40,000. The extruder is however not obligatory, as the char powder can
> > be shaped into fuel balls even manually. A crude kiln, just a hollow
>chamber
> > without the retorts would cost very little, just about Rs. 5000. The
>family
> > operating a 100 kg per day unit would earn an income of about Rs. 3000 per
> > week. The briquettes need sunshine to dry. Therefore the family can work
> > for about 35 weeks in a year, and earn about Rs. 100,000 Rupees in a year,
> > which is as good an income as a whitecollar worker in a city. Sugarcane is
> > harvested for about 25 weeks, so the major raw material can be dry
>sugarcane
> > leaves. Currently we have only one prototype, which we have shown to
> > officials of several banks. However, because the concept is new, and
> > because there is no ready market for the briquettes, the potential
> > entrepreneurs as well as the bankers are hesitant to finance this project.
> > The fact that we use the char as potting medium, is a different matter.
>The
> > entrepreneurs would be willing to give it a try, if they get a unit free
>of
> > cost.
> > Charcoal was the prefered fuel in India, about 50 years ago, but in order
>to
> > protect the trees, our government banned charcoal making and made kerosene
> > available at a very cheap rate. But recently, the subsidy was withdrawn.
> > The poor now use wood (Rs.2 per kg) instead of kerosene (Rs. 13 per kg).
>Our
> > briquettes would be available for about Rs. 6 to 7 per kg. If people used
> > our stove-and-cooker system, tailored for the use of briquettes, they
>would
> > we able to cook the food
> > requiring 3kg wood with just 100g of char briquettes. The cooker as well
>as
> > the briquettes have a good potential market, but we have no money to
> > commercialise them.
> > This is not part of the Shell proposal.
> > I have attached information about our activities.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >
> > At 06:51 AM 9/25/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> > >Dear Paul,
> > >I leave it to Priya to answer the questions about the Shell Foundation,
> > >becasue she would be attending the meeting to be held from 11 to14
>October.
> > >(1) Our kilns, designed to produce about 100 kg char per day, are made of
> > >bricks and mud. The kiln is to be erected in a sugarcane field by the
> > >operator himself. There are two models. One is a conventional model,
>which
> > >consists of just a tank-like structure having some air holes at the
>bottom.
> > >It is filled with dry sugarcane leaves, which are ignited from the top.
>A
> > >chimney fabricated from sheet iron is provided to take the smoke out and
> > >above the eye level of the operators. This model costs about Rs. 5,000.
>The
> > >second model is costly. It is based on the oven-and-retort process. In
> > >this case too the oven is a brick and mud structure erected in the field,
> > >but the leaves are loaded into barrels called retorts. The oven takes 7
> > >barrels. When the kiln is started, the dry leaves in the barrels produce
> > >gas, which they release at the level of the grate, where it burns. This
> > >adds to the heat. After the volatiles have been exhausted, the process
> > >stops and one can unload the barrels, now full of char. One can
>immediately
> > >load the next batch of barrels into the oven and start the next batch.
>The
> > >hardware cost of the oven-and-retort model is about Rs. 10,000, becasue
>one
> > >needs at least two sets of barrels. Each barrel costs about Rs. 400. The
> > >barrels get corroded very fast. We are seriously thinking of fabricating
> > >them out of stainless steel sheet. But that may raise the price of the
> > >entire system to about Rs. 15,000. The plans of providing such kilns to
> > >unemployed rural youth have still remained only plans. The entire
>concept
> > >is new. Neither entrepreneurs nor bankers like to venture into unknown
> > >territory. The potential entrepreneurs are therefore not ready to invest
> > >their own money, but are willing to operate the kiln if we gave them a
>kiln
> > >free of cost. In fact, we started out with the oven-and-retort process,
>but
> > >after we realised the financial difficulty of the operators, we developed
> > >the cheaper, more conventional kiln. We are on the lookout for financers,
> > >who may either donate the money for 10 sets of kilns or at least give it
>as
> > >a loan.
> > >(2) Our Institute is working not just on rural energy but on a whole lot
>of
> > >technologies, which would be very useful in any developing country. There
> > >are at least 15 new ideas in our brochure. We have already
>commercialised a
> > >few of them and the operators are earning good money with them. These
>days
> > >people are chairy about opening attachments to an E-mail. Would you like
>me
> > >to send you our brochure as an attachment?
> > >A.D.Karve
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> >
> >

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From rstanley at legacyfound.org Tue Oct 2 13:41:32 2001
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <75.1bee3e13.28ea62a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BB9FB5D.DE528033@legacyfound.org>

A.D., Daniel,

My mentor in the wet low pressure briquetting process Ben Bryant, advised me
once that if you mix in wet field grass with the more resistant material such
as sugar cane, it will accelerate decomposition markedly. At least it did for
us in Mangochi and Mchinji in Malawi and Chaquilccasa in Cusco departamente
Peru, with eucalyptus leaves and corn stalks.
Grass or no grass, I would suggest that you train the farmers to chop the
leaves BEFORE they decompose them. This increases surface area andwill
,depending upon the seed and shape of the hammermill (a modified stone mill can
work well too) tend to open up the more easily accessible ends of the
material. the chopping and addition of grass , according to our experience,
generally reduces deomposition time by 2/3rds. decomposition measured in terms
of days and weeks not months.
Its really a shame the farmers have to have to burn the material in situ. You
could train the farmers to briquette the material right there in the field and
thanks to your recent communication, produce the char in their own villages
while gaining a heat source for themselves and their families through one of
the rocket type stoves, modified to allow the charred briquette to pass through
to a closed container where it would be snuffed out and preserved for
subsequent addition to char briquettes.
This might also work for my good friends in Kenya too.

Then they could either sell the char product for char briquette production in
the factory. (or, they could choose to accomplish much the same thing in a
second pass through the same press). I speak abit out of turn here I do not
really know the exact context in which such a scheme could work but rely only
upon two years as a Peace corpsman (67 69) and subsequent consulting time (83 -
4) in rural Sri Lanka.

Mata gihila ennang

Richard

"A.D. Karve" wrote:

> Dear Daniel,
> we use dry leaves of sugarcane and not stems. During the process of
> senescence, when the leaf is turning yellow, the plant removes most of the
> nitrogen, phosphate and other important elements from the leaves, and sends
> them to the green parts. What remains behind is just a lignified and
> silicified skeleton. This is of course theory. I do not know actually how
> much nitrogen and phosphate is left in the leaves. However, the fact that
> the dry leaves of sugarcane are extremely hard to decompose (taking almost 8
> months, if buried underground, and almost 5 months if left above ground
> after treatment with cultures of decomposing organisms) and the fact that
> cattle do not eat them, indicates that they may not have nutrients left in
> them. The yellowed leaves are however not shed, but are left attached to the
> stem of sugarcane. With this arrangement, by individually hanging them out,
> the plant sees to it that are nicely dried. At the time of harvest, the dry
> leaves are manually separated from the stem and left in the field. The
> green tops of sugarcane are used as cattle fodder, but not the dry leaves.
> The dry leaves are about 1 meter long, extremely tough and springy. After
> harvest, they form an almost 20 cm thick layer on the field, which
> interferes with post harvest operations like ploughing, harrowing (wheels of
> the tractor slip over them, and the leaves clog the tynes of the harrow) or
> with irrigating the field for a ratoon crop (the crop that grows again from
> the stubble of the harvested one). Removing this trash from the field by
> using human labour is too costly. Therefore, the farmer gets rid of the
> layer of dry leaves lying in his field by just burning them in situ. Each
> hectare produces about 10 tonnes of such leaves. They would yield 2 tonnes
> of briquettes, having a market value of almost Rs. 13,000. When the
> possibility exists of converting the trash into money, manual or mechanical
> removal of the trash becomes affordable. By hiring a tractor-drawn harrow,
> it costs just Rs. 750 per hectare to drag the leaves to one side of the
> field. The charring kiln is constructed in the field itself, using bricks
> and mud, and by working day and night, the leaves are converted into char.
> Only the char is transported to the briquette making factory. Maharashtra
> (our state) has 450,000 hectares of sugarcane, which generates 4.5 million
> tonnes of dry leaves. Our process of charring can convert this material
> into 900,000 tonnes of char briquettes every year, to generate an income of
> almost 6 million Rupees annually. (1 U.S.$= Rs.50).
> A.D.Karve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
> To: <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 5:51 AM
> Subject: Re: carbonisation
>
> > Mr.Karve,
> > When I spoke of green I was refering to the unseasoned waste. Here in
> > Ohio we let wood go a full year ideally before we burn it. The seasoning
> > process is not just to remove water, but to remove nitrogen and some
> > potassium as well. Wood may burn ok with some moisture on the outside if
> > it's seasoned, but if it's green, it produces poisenous smoke.
> > In your case, just fully drying the cane, and allowing some extra time
> > for the ammonia to leave, would make for a much cleaner process, and the
> > efficiancy would go up due to the lack of moisture to be boiled off. In
> > effect, the sun and drying air replace the thermal energy lost now to
> boiling
> > the moisture out. Your efficiancy will go up because the flame temprature
> > will be hotter and the gas will burn more completely. As you know, it
> takes
> > a lot of energy to boil water.
> > I try to keep the good letters filed, but you can't save em'all.
> > Does this answer your question? Help?
> > Daniel Dimiduk
> >
> > -
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From twp at treeswaterpeople.org Tue Oct 2 18:08:45 2001
From: twp at treeswaterpeople.org (Stuart Conway)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Stoves for Peace: Refugees
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20010925125543.00e4e850@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BBA3914.C2402936@treeswaterpeople.org>

Hi Matthew,

Thanks for your update on the refugee and stove situation in Pakistan. I
travelled through Afghanistan and spent three months in Chitral, Pakistan in
1975. More recently, my non-profit organization Trees, Water & People has been
working with the Aprovecho Research Center to introduce more fuel-efficient
stoves into our community reforestation projects in Central America.

I agree with your assesment that the refugees have a pretty good stove, already.
I read recently that GTZ had a stove and fuel improvement project located in
Peshawar. However, the Aprovecho Research Center (www.efn.org/~apro) has a
Rocket stove that can be made from used food containers, including 5 gallon
metal containers and soup cans. the elbow shaped combustion chamber is insulated
with wood ash or even paper to make it more efficient. The Rocket can also be
made of clay. Are the international donors still using metal containers for
cooking oil or have they gone to plastic containers?

The other person I have been in contact with is Richard Stanley of the Legacy
Foundation. Working in refugee camps in Africa, he came up with the design for
a compressing machine that can make briquettes from crop residues (rice hulls,
corn stalks, etc.) or from paper.

Do you think that these would be useful technologies for the Afghani refugees
in Pakistan? Any suggestions on which NGOs or agencies might be interested in
receiving this type of training and be able to implement the project?

Stuart Conway
Trees, Water & People
633 S. college Avenue
Fort Collins, CO 80524

Matthew Owen wrote:

> Stovers,
>
> As a roving refugee/energy consultant, I've had the good fortune of being
> able to visit numerous refugee camps in some 15 countries over the last 6
> years, those in Pakistan included.
>
> List members may not be fully aware that Pakistan was hosting 3 million
> Afghan refugees as long ago as 1980, and still hosts over 1 million Afghans
> in Balochistan and North West Frontier Province. They are mostly in small,
> dispersed camps spread along the common border. Almost another 1.5 million
> Afghan refugees are inside Iran. This is not a new phenomenon, only one that
> has recently started appearing on CNN.
>
> In Pakistan the refugees fall under the jurisdiction of the government's
> Commisionerate for Refugees and receive a range of assistance from the
> Commissionerate, UNHCR and a slew of local and international NGOs. This has
> included numerous stove and energy programmes. Pakistan in fact benefitted
> from the most ambitious environmental programme ever implemented under a
> refugee programme that cost $86.5 million and ran for 12 years from 1984-96.
> This included stove programmes, reafforestation activities and numerous
> infrastructure projects (wells, dams, roads, etc). So there is plenty of
> experience in-country, both with refugees and with issues of energy and the
> environment. This experience is not only vested in UNHCR and other
> international organisations, but equally in local people, local NGOs and
> indeed the refugees. Many of the refugees, certainly around Peshawar, are
> well educated and informed individuals who find themselves in exile only
> because they do not support the Taliban government.
>
> We should remember that the Afghan refugees are coming out of one semi-arid
> and pretty hostile environment into another. They have lived all their lives
> in energy-scarce situations and know how to cook and survive under such
> conditions. This applies especially to those fleeing southern Afghanistan
> (Kandahar) into Balochistan (Quetta), which are extremely dry and sparsely
> vegetated areas. I appreciate the sentiment in wanting to offer them moral
> and material support, but we need to be realistic in what can be achieved
> and how much they really need help in the area of cooking stoves.
>
> Crispin is right to note that the refugees currently use fuel-efficient
> mud-stoves to cook. Variations of these are used across South Asia in fact.
> They are simple, fuel-efficient and can be built and repaired by the owner.
> He is also right (in my view) to say that it is not appropriate to fly in
> stove units from outside, but to go for things that can be made on site. For
> one, the system currently used is efficient and culturally proven. In
> addition, the camps are incredibly dispersed and difficult to get to. His
> idea of a lightweight firegrate is certainly a useful suggestion as it can
> be made in-country and distributed with relative ease. It leaves the
> traditional cooking system essentially intact, but makes what appears to be
> a slight improvement.
>
> Solar cookers were promoted extensively in Pakistan under an organisation
> called SERVE, with somewhat limited success. SERVE still works with the
> refugees I believe, but has dropped the solar cooker work. [These cookers
> have also been promoted in Kenyan and Ethiopian camps with, in my view, no
> impact whatsoever. But I appreciate that the promoters have their own
> opinions.]
>
> I think that from a distance we can contribute in a few ways:
>
> (a) Monetary support to organisations working with the refugees, whether in
> education, social services, water, sanitation, health or whatever (e.g. GTZ,
> SERVE, Save the Children USA, Shelter Now, Ockenden International, Mercy
> Corps International).
>
> (b) Offers of simple, locally workable ideas to the UNHCR Engineering and
> Environmental Services section in Geneva, which it should be able to forward
> to the right people in Pakistan (www.unhcr.ch).
>
> (c) A letter writing campaign to the White House urging the USA to show
> restraint, which could help stem the tide of people fleeing Afghanistan.
>
> Matthew Owen
> Chardust Ltd. (+ freelance energy consultant)
> Nairobi
> Kenya
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> To: Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>; Apolinário J Malawene
> <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed
> Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>;
> <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 9:16 PM
> Subject: Stoves for Peace: Refugees
>
> > Stovers,
> >
> > As the Afghani refugees accumulate in Pakistan, we could turn our thoughts
> > to the STOVE needs of the innocent civilians there (and in other areas).
> >
> > These people need to eat, and that means some cooking, and that means
> > stoves to us.
> >
> > Can the assembled experts on stoves (this list serve) do anything, or do
> we
> > just watch?
> >
> > Stoves !!!
> >
> > Could the military forces deliver the goods?
> >
> > Could military engineers and trainers and regular soldiers install stoves
> > (what kind?) for use in refugee camps and in these troubled areas that are
> > NOT combat zones?
> >
> > Is there someone in Pune, India, (or known to the Karve's) or someone else
> > of reasonable qualifications who could travel on a stoves fact-finding
> > mission and help get something going on stoves to serve the
> > refugees? Would be nice if the person spoke a language from the area.
> >
> > If yes to the above, there are those among us who will make that trip
> > possible !!!!
> >
> > NO POLITICS. Just assistance to people in need. Just stoves.
> >
> > Paul
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> >
> >
> > -
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From kchishol at fox.nstn.ca Tue Oct 2 20:13:11 2001
From: kchishol at fox.nstn.ca (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: carbonisation
In-Reply-To: <OF4EE66B43.D9FFD7C5-ON41256AD7.003FD272@lkab.kiruna.se>
Message-ID: <000201c14b9f$2dc2a9e0$5019059a@nstn.ca>

Dear lennart
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lennart Mukka" <lennart.mukka@lkab.com>
To: "Carefreeland" <Carefreeland@aol.com>; "rstanley"
<rstanley@legacyfound.org>; <stoves@crest.org>; "gasification"
<gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 8:40 AM
Subject: Ang: GAS-L: Re: carbonisation

>
> A short answer to your mail
> I think my company has the patent for the steel chain belt not only for
> iron ore
> Our Research and Development department have the answeres

Interesting!! Could you please provide the patent number or numbers, and a
brief summary of what exactly your patents cover? When were the patents
obtained?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
> Lennart Mukka
> LKAB
> Sweden
>
>
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>
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>
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>

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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Oct 2 23:56:49 2001
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:09 2004
Subject: Financing KILNS for charring sugarcane trash
In-Reply-To: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c14bc1$9c2ab360$6752c5cb@vsnl.net.in>

Dear Sandra, Nick and others,
in one of my previous messages I mentioned that the char briquette
technology had the potential of generating annually, in the state of
Maharashtra alone, 90,000 tonnes of briquettes, saleable at Rs. 6 million.
There was a computing mistake. The potential of this technology is to
generate annually Rs. 6 billion (US$ 120 million). With such a large
amount of money that can be pumped into the rural economy of just one
province, it is the Government of India that should be promoting this
technology. But it is my experience that the politicians would undertake
only such activities that would benefit them personally. If in that process
the nation also benefits, it is a coincidence.
A.D.Karve

Sandra and Nick, (with copy to Stoves list so you can see what is
happening and maybe even assist.)

Dear Sandra (with food for thought for Nick, who might want to call Sandra
directly),

Here are the options as I see them (and that I hope you will accept):

Option 1: That the District 6490 resources be
used. Period. Done. Congratulations on a worthy project.

If more than $1000 is collected, then the surplus money will also be
directed towards stoves-related appropriate projects.

To ANY reader: If you have an alternative way to provide the money to ARTI
(via Ron Larson or other means), please inform the other readers.

To AD Karve: I sure hope this can be accomplished. And we will be
counting on you for detailed reporting on the progress and impact of the
project.

Thanks in advance to everyone,

Paul

(messages below are lengthy but give valuable information in case anyone
needs to send this information to others beyond our Stoves listserve.)

At 02:53 PM 10/2/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
>Dear Paul,
>Your offer [below, not above] is most welcome. The sugarcane harvest
>begins in the first week
>of November. Please note, that it is not bagasse but trash that we want to
>char. [ PSA: Sorry, a slip by me. I do know the difference.] Bagasse is
>the fibrous part of the cane. It is used as fuel in the
>sugar factory itself . Sugar industry (using sugarcane, not beet) is
>totally independant of outside sources of energy. Use of modern boilers
and
>other refined techniques, sugar factories use so little bagasse for their
>own energy needs, that they produce electricity with the left over bagasse
>and sell it to others. What we want to char are the dried leaves, called
>trash, which are left in the field after the cane has been harvested.
>I like the idea, that the kiln and extruder are loaned to the
entrepreneurs.
>After one of them has paid the money back to us, the next one in line gets
>his unit, also as a loan. We are arrnanging with a rural co-operative to
>market the briquettes. Alternatively, we don't give an extruder to the
>entrepreneurs, but install a large extruder in our own premises, buy the
>loose char from the kiln operators, make the briquettes in our unit, and
>sell them. When the marketting is channelised, loan recovery would be easy.
>The retorts (i.e.barrels) made of mild steel sheet corrode rather fast. I
>don't think that they would last longer than a season. Daniel Dimduck has
>given me some hints about prolonging their life, and we shall try them out.
>Paul Hait of Pyromid suggested the use of stainless steel barrels. They are
>mass produced in various shapes and sizes, for being used as storage of
>potable water, food grains, etc. If purchased in bulk, they would not be
all
>that costly. We therefore want to keep that option open, if the cost can be
>substantially reduced.
>If we get about US$ 1000 in October, we can be ready with some kilns to be
>distributed at the beginning of the sugarcane campaign in November. We have
>already lined up 15 jobless youngsters who have access to sugarcane trash,
>and who are keen to start the business.
>A.D.Karve
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
>To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Nick Nayak
><nicholasnayak@aol.com>; Sandra Broadrick-Allen <sandyba@net66.com>;
>Apolinário J Malawene <ajmalawene01@hotmail.com>; Bob and Karla Weldon
><bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Ed Francis <cfranc@ilstu.edu>; Tsamba--Alberto
>Julio <ajtsamba@zebra.uem.mz>
>Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:40 AM
>Subject: Kilns for India bagasse
>
>
> > AD and Nick and others,
> >
> > As per your letter (reprinted below), at Rs50 = US$ 1.00, you need
US$100
> > per kiln of the basic kind, and $200 for the regular,
> >
> > [[ and $300 for the special (stainless steel barrels), but those are not
>of
> > interest to me until proven to be worth the money ]],
> >
> > And you would like to set up a pilot with 10 kilns which MIGHT even pay
> > back the investor / donor. I deal with donors who want the money to be
> > "recirculated" to build more of the kilns.
> >
> > I am sure I can find between $1000 and $2000 for this pilot
> > project. ESPECIALLY if it becomes a "microenterprise" and a community
> > bank project.
> >
> > But I do have some questions
> >
> > When is the next bagasse season?
> >
> > Do the kilns last for several years?
> >
> > Are you ready to start soon?
> >
> > I am just now reading some older messages I missed last week.
> >
> > I leave in 30 hours to Africa, so I will be an infrequent reader and
>writer.
> >
> > Please keep up the discussion and I will try to catch up in late
October.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:21:07 +0530
> > From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> > Subject: Re: Stoves-kilns-bagasse-India
> > To: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ilstu.edu>
> > Message-id: <000001c147b7$4fe85ce0$7751c5cb@vsnl.net.in>
> > MIME-version: 1.0
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> > References: <15e.12ba8c8.28db5355@aol.com>
> > <4.3.1.2.20010924143721.00d20f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
> > <4.3.1.2.20010927085852.00b76f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
> >
> > Dear Paul,
> > 1 US$ is roughly equal to 50 Indian Rupees. One kiln and extruder unit,
> > capable of producing about 100 kg char briquettes per day would cost
about
> > Rs.40,000. The extruder is however not obligatory, as the char powder
can
> > be shaped into fuel balls even manually. A crude kiln, just a hollow
>chamber
> > without the retorts would cost very little, just about Rs. 5000. The
>family
> > operating a 100 kg per day unit would earn an income of about Rs. 3000
per
> > week. The briquettes need sunshine to dry. Therefore the family can
work
> > for about 35 weeks in a year, and earn about Rs. 100,000 Rupees in a
year,
> > which is as good an income as a whitecollar worker in a city. Sugarcane
is
> > harvested for about 25 weeks, so the major raw material can be dry
>sugarcane
> > leaves. Currently we have only one prototype, which we have shown to
> > officials of several banks. However, because the concept is new, and
> > because there is no ready market for the briquettes, the potential
> > entrepreneurs as well as the bankers are hesitant to finance this
project.
> > The fact that we use the char as potting medium, is a different matter.
>The
> > entrepreneurs would be willing to give it a try, if they get a unit free
>of
> > cost.
> > Charcoal was the prefered fuel in India, about 50 years ago, but in
order
>to
> > protect the trees, our government banned charcoal making and made
kerosene
> > available at a very cheap rate. But recently, the subsidy was
withdrawn.
> > The poor now use wood (Rs.2 per kg) instead of kerosene (Rs. 13 per kg).
>Our
> > briquettes would be available for about Rs. 6 to 7 per kg. If people
used
> > our stove-and-cooker system, tailored for the use of briquettes, they
>would
> > we able to cook the food
> > requiring 3kg wood with just 100g of char briquettes. The cooker as
well
>as
> > the briquettes have a good potential market, but we have no money to
> > commercialise them.
> > This is not part of the Shell proposal.
> > I have attached information about our activities.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >
> > At 06:51 AM 9/25/01 +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> > >Dear Paul,
> > >I leave it to Priya to answer the questions about the Shell Foundation,
> > >becasue she would be attending the meeting to be held from 11 to14
>October.
> > >(1) Our kilns, designed to produce about 100 kg char per day, are made
of
> > >bricks and mud. The kiln is to be erected in a sugarcane field by the
> > >operator himself. There are two models. One is a conventional model,
>which
> > >consists of just a tank-like structure having some air holes at the
>bottom.
> > >It is filled with dry sugarcane leaves, which are ignited from the top.
>A
> > >chimney fabricated from sheet iron is provided to take the smoke out
and
> > >above the eye level of the operators. This model costs about Rs.
5,000.
>The
> > >second model is costly. It is based on the oven-and-retort process.
In
> > >this case too the oven is a brick and mud structure erected in the
field,
> > >but the leaves are loaded into barrels called retorts. The oven takes 7
> > >barrels. When the kiln is started, the dry leaves in the barrels
produce
> > >gas, which they release at the level of the grate, where it burns.
This
> > >adds to the heat. After the volatiles have been exhausted, the process
> > >stops and one can unload the barrels, now full of char. One can
>immediately
> > >load the next batch of barrels into the oven and start the next batch.
>The
> > >hardware cost of the oven-and-retort model is about Rs. 10,000, becasue
>one
> > >needs at least two sets of barrels. Each barrel costs about Rs. 400.
The
> > >barrels get corroded very fast. We are seriously thinking of
fabricating
> > >them out of stainless steel sheet. But that may raise the price of the
> > >entire system to about Rs. 15,000. The plans of providing such kilns
to
> > >unemployed rural youth have still remained only plans. The entire
>concept
> > >is new. Neither entrepreneurs nor bankers like to venture into unknown
> > >territory. The potential entrepreneurs are therefore not ready to
invest
> > >their own money, but are willing to operate the kiln if we gave them a
>kiln
> > >free of cost. In fact, we started out with the oven-and-retort
process,
>but
> > >after we realised the financial difficulty of the operators, we
developed
> > >the cheaper, more conventional kiln. We are on the lookout for
financers,
> > >who may either donate the money for 10 sets of kilns or at least give
it
>as
> > >a loan.
> > >(2) Our Institute is working not just on rural energy but on a whole
lot
>of
> > >technologies, which would be very useful in any developing country.
There
> > >are at least 15 new ideas in our brochure. We have already
>commercialised a
> > >few of them and the operators are earning good money with them. These
>days
> > >people are chairy about opening attachments to an E-mail. Would you
like
>me
> > >to send you our brochure as an attachment?
> > >A.D.Karve
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> >
> >