August 2002 Gasification Archive

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Aug 2 05:26:53 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: Fw: Bamboo (from A.D. Karve)
Message-ID: <000801c23a28$223cada0$2275fea9@w5k6v8>

stovers:

The following message further describes the pyrolyzer work of Alex
English in India of about 1.7 years ago. A few comments:

1. I interpret the non-use of the top down pyrolyzing, controllable
approach as a) being too large
b) Not being able to use the waste heat.
c) their use of a retort allows other materials to be used
d) They (like Alex, but unlike most rural charcoaling operations) are
flaring all the gases - not simply venting. There is still a lot of unused
thermal energy.
e) Because they (ARTI) are burning soime of the material that could be
pyrolyzed, I think they are not likely to be as efficient as Alex apparatus.
f) I don't understand the inability to pyrolyze cotton stalks. I have
successfully pyrolyzed raspberry (in much smaller units) and think they are
rather similar. The key was tight packing.
g). Pyrolyzing leaves is probably hopeless in the top-down approach -
unless using a blower.
h. I hope a try could be made at pyrolyzing both cotton stalks and bamboo
in an operation like Alex'- with the waste heat being used to dry (but not
necessarily pyrolyze) material above it. The exiting gases after flaring
and before drying could go through a retort operation. After a little
experimentation, I think the right combination of material flow could still
allow a more efficient operation. with zero combustion (only pyrolysis).

Anyone else to comment? Alex?

2. I'd like to see the
----- Original Message -----
From: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
To: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: Bamboo

> Dear Ron,
> The gasifier that Alex constructed at Phaltan was a cylindrical apparatus,
> about 150 cm tall. It did produce a very nice flame but we could not find
> any use for it. And therefore the gas just burned in the atmosphere. In
> fact, the gas flame acted only to create a draft. We tested Alex's
> gasifier with various other types of material, e.g.cotton stalks, but it
> refused to work. It appears that this particular design was good only for
> bamboo, or wooden staves, comparable in density and dimensions to bamboo.
> The oven and retort system is also a gasifier. The word retort itself
> suggests that the biomass in the retort is distilled. However, the gas
> escaping from the retort is burnt in the oven itself, below the barrels
that
> serve as the retort, so that this heat is utilised for the pyrolysis. This
> system works universally for all kinds of biomass, including leaves of
> sugarcane, dry grass, stover of cereals etc. Therefore, as a charcoal
making
> system, it is better suited for our conditions where the biomass can vary
> from season to season.
> Yours Nandu

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>
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>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Aug 2 14:50:34 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: Bamboo in Thailand
In-Reply-To: <002701c23720$fec994a0$896bfea9@home>
Message-ID: <000501c23a76$dc02fb10$6601a8c0@tomslaptop>

Matthew,

Please send me the carbonization photos and I'll post them on the
Stoves/carbon web pages.

Thanks

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Owen" <owen@africaonline.co.ke>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 1:16 AM
Subject: Bamboo in Thailand

> In Lampang in central Thailand there are 2 outfits making charcoal
> briquettes from bamboo waste. Or at least there were when I visited in
1999.
> The waste came from cottage industries making chopsticks and toothpicks.
All
> the jointed sections of the bamboo used to be thrown away, but two
> briquetting companies were instead getting the farmers to carbonise this
> material and bring it to their factories. They paid the farmers cash by
the
> kg.
>
> The farmers used a rather rudimentary carbonisation system which was in
fact
> nothing more than very large open cylinders into which the bamboo pieces
> were heaped and then lit. This led to low conversion efficiencies and high
> ash content, as well as some poorly burned lumps of bamboo. They were
using
> 5% tapioca flour as a binder and baking the briquettes in gas ovens
> (something which would not be competitive in East Africa where lumpwood
> charcoal is very cheap). The main market for the Lampang charcoal was an
NGO
> consortium supplying fuel to Burmese refugees. They were buying around $2
> million worth per annum at that time!
>
> I have a couple of photos of the bamboo carbonisation (140 & 180 kb) if
> anyone wants to see them. Let me know and I can email.
>
> By way of an update on this story, I was contacted in 2001 by a guy living
> in Lampang called Jan Mrskos of ENHOLCO THAILAND (enholco@cscoms.com).
From
> the sound of it, the briquetting factories may have closed down. Here's
what
> he told me:
>
> "I have been living in Lampang for more than 10 years, coming here as a
> consultant for a local power plant and later staying on my own. The
factory
> what I am running now for wooden kitchenware was run before for production
> of bamboo chopsticks. That time the huge bamboo waste was not so easy to
> make use of. i.e, nobody from the vast surrounding was keen on it. The
> burning for the charcoal in a large scale with the legal Thai wages had
not
> been viable, it could be done only in a small scale by villagers. As far
as
> I know they had run mostly on wood sawdust or surprisingly, on charcoal
dust
> brought in over 2,000 km from the south. One of the charcoal factory you
> mentioned belongs to an older gentleman, a good friend of mine who I
> incidentally yesterday was visiting. Currently, the production of both of
> these charcoal factories is down to zero because of the low market."
>
> Matthew Owen
> Chardust Ltd.
> Nairobi
> Kenya
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
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> -
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> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

From wsb at lava.net Wed Aug 7 16:46:55 2002
From: wsb at lava.net (Warren Bollmeier)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: Edits
In-Reply-To: <h3llkus9jagmrg162j5pklvsu9o70ngp3m@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807144053.00a078e0@mail.lava.net>

At 05:28 PM 8/7/02 -0600, you wrote:
>From: "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>
>To: <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>, <gasification@crest.org>,
> "Stoves" <Stoves@crest.org>
>Subject: Re: GAS-L: feeding biomass into pressurised systems
>Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:28:51 -0600
>Organization: BEF
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
>
>All:
>
>Yes, a typo, "Deffer, not differ".
>
>Ouch.. TOM REED

I hate to say this Tom, but do you really mean "Defer?"

Aloha!

Warren

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Aug 8 08:49:02 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
In-Reply-To: <008301c23ed9$f1d552f0$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <20020808154950.GC29252@cybershamanix.com>

On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 10:07:11AM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
> Dear Harmon:
>
> Thanks for the flame.
>
> Your same logic should make it unnecessary to spend one dollar of tax money
> to catch and punish murderers, robbers and CEOs. The problem will take care
> of itself!

No, it's not the same at all. Viruses (and hacking) are a technological
problem, and we have (and have had for a long time now) the technological
solutions for it. I seriously think all laws against hacking and viruses should
be abolished. I cheer wholeheartedly every single virus that comes out, and
would never lift a finger to stop their spread -- and I'm a professional systems
admin, remember.
I think viruses are just great. They don't bother me. Prosecuting virues
writers is like prosecuting Ralph Nader for pointing out the serious safety
defects in cars.
As I recall, it's been pointed out to you a number of times by myself and
others that you are using a defective product. Wake up, Tom! There are many
quite usable mail readers even for windows that don't have much of a virus
problem. You are using the worst one on the market and then crying for the
government to make it all better.
That's like all the idiot farmers crying for subsidies and crop price
supports, when the problem is they've been suckered by the ag industry. Just as
there are much better, safer, and vastly more efficient and cost effective
methods of farming, so are there much better ways of computing. Have you seen
the latest blurbs from Intel -- they now are coming out with a 3GHZ processor --
isn't that wonderful? For what? I'm still running a 266mhz processor -- entirely
fast enough, but then I run efficient software, eh? And my machine is not just
my desktop box, but also a firewall, webserver, and email server.
No Tom, we don't need more fascist government and more repressive laws. We
need for people to wake up and stop buying defective crap made by a company that
spends far more on advertising hype than they do on R&D.

>
> I still think the punishment should fit the crime and this crime is much
> larger than any other, but because it is distributed we tolerate it. If we
> added up the total costs we would switch from our anti terror war to an anti
> virus war.

Well, it's just a "War on Some Terror" just like their disgusting "War on
Some Drugs". We don't need any more "Wars" on anything, give Peace a chance. The
solutions for all those problems are well-known and quite easy to implement. The
problem is that they are all just excuses for power grabs and destroying the
Constituition, not to mention all the money they make for big corporations, the
prison/industrial complex and other evil people.

>
> Tom Reed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> To: "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>
> Cc: <editor@RockyMountainNews.com>; <noem@RockyMountainNews.com>; "zhangmi"
> <zhangmi@biogas.com.cn>; "gasification" <gasification@crest.org>; "Stoves"
> <Stoves@crest.org>; <Philreed@aol.com>; "Peter Reed" <preed@linboston.com>;
> "Kevin Reed" <kevin.reed@chhn.com>; "Katherine Cochrane"
> <kcochrane@earthlink.net>; "Emily Jane Reed" <meyer618@hotmail.com>;
> "Shivayam Ellis" <shivayam55@hotmail.com>; "Bob Weldon"
> <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; "Pete Salinger" <petes@ma.ultranet.com>; "John
> Reed" <reed112@juno.com>; "Emily Jane Reed" <618meyer@hotmail.com>; "Pat
> Duesenberg" <PatDuesenberg@cs.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 6:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
>
>
> > I don't think we need anymore penalties for virus makers -- I don't
> think we
> > need the government's involvment at all -- left alone, the free market
> will take
> > care of the problem. I don't have even the slightest problem with viruses,
> > except for seeing all the warning messages about them, and I certainly
> don't
> > want one penny of my taxes wasted on the government doing anything about
> them.
> > It's quite simple Tom -- you are using a virus magnet for a mail reader,
> and
> > an extremely defective operating system. It's an very simple matter for
> you
> > to change to a decent mail reader, and wouldn't be all that difficult for
> you to
> > change to a real operating system that doesn't get viruses.
> > We don't need anymore corporate welfare or draconian laws propping up
> > defective products. The computer world is a lot like the auto industry --
> most
> > people are driving Fords and Chevys, some people drive Audis and
> Mercedes --
> > except that in the computer world it costs much less to drive a Mercedes.
> Go
> > figure!
> > Surely anyone with the technical mindset to design and build gasifiers
> can
> > figure out how to install and run an better operating system, eh?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 06:48:47AM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
> > > Dear All:
> > >
> > > Computer viruses are a terrible, but low level nuisance to all of us
> computer users. At least one needs virus protection costing maybe $50/yr,
> so a tax of $5 billion/year on the 100 million computer users in the US (and
> a great boon to the virus protectors who have no incentive to stop
> collecting this tax). At worst they cause a loss of 10 to 100 hours of time
> to the 100 million users, a "tax" of 1 to 10 billion hours on computer
> users.
> > >
> > > A lifetime (80 years, 8 disposable hours/day) has 15,000 disposable
> hours. So this mischief "murders" (10^9/15,000) 67,000 people a year, far
> greater than 9/11.
> > >
> > > I cana't imagine what joy the vius makers get out of their mischief, but
> the 67,000 murders and $5 billion should make it a CAPITAL OFFENSE to spread
> a virus. Instead, those who are caught are slapped on the wrist.
> > >
> > > I hope you will join a national campaign to institute more proportionate
> penalties for virus bandits. Lifetime imprisonment WITHOUT COMPUTER ACCESS
> would be a living hell for them, so lets start with that!
> > >
> > >
> ~~~~~~
> > > Please forward this to anyone (legislators, pundits, editorial writers
> etc.) who you think may help with this campaign.
> > >
> > > Yours truly, Thomas B. Reed
> COLORADO
> >
> > --
> > Harmon Seaver
> > CyberShamanix
> > http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >
>

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
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From rmiranda at entelnet.bo Thu Aug 8 08:52:59 2002
From: rmiranda at entelnet.bo (Rogerio Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: Invitation to join the arecop group
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20020808121750.00cf26f0@entelnet.bo>

Hello stovers: I just received this message, perhaps might be of interest
of someone else.

Rogerio

>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:07:14 -0600
>X-Authentication-Warning: ns.sdnnic.org.ni: nobody set sender to
>rmiranda@ns.sdnnic.org.ni using -f
>From: "Rogerio Miranda" <rmiranda@ns.sdnnic.org.ni>
>To: rmiranda@entelnet.bo
>Subject: Fw: Invitation to join the arecop group
>X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.25
>X-IPAddress: 166.114.30.40
>
>/5/2002 07:21:27 -0000
>De: arecop moderator <arecop-owner@yahoogroups.com>
>Contestar a: confirm-invite-YBG3hLDEiRjmRTrDE89kcqKm=IA-
>rmiranda=sdnnic.org.ni@yahoogroups.com
>Para: rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni
>Asunto: Invitation to join the arecop group
>------------- Forwarded message follows -------------
>
>
>Hello rmiranda@sdnnic.org.ni,
>
>You've been invited to join the arecop group
>hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use community service.
>By joining arecop, you will be able to exchange
>messages with other group members, store photos and files,
>coordinate events and more.
>
>This invitation will expire in 7 days.
>
>Here's an introductory message from the group moderator:
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>You are invited to join ARECOP E group.
>
>Asia Regional Cookstove Program (ARECOP)E-group.
>is a communication forum for us who work in improved cookstove, biomass
>energy and related field. The E-group will allow us to communicate on
>issues related to ARECOP
>scope of activities:
>-discuss relevant issues
>-post updates on relevant activities/events
>-general exchange of relevant information
>
>ARECOP Secretariat
>
>To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: arecop-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>To post message: arecop@yahoogroups.com
>To unsubscribe: arecop-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>JOIN NOW, IT'S EASY:
>
>1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/i?i=YBG3hLDEiRjmRTrDE89kcqKm-IA&e=rmiranda%
>40sdnnic%2Eorg%2Eni
> (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your
> Web browser's address bar.)
>
>-OR-
>
>2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
> in your email program
>
>If you do not wish to join the arecop group, please
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>
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>NeoMail - Webmail that doesn't suck... as much.
>http://neomail.sourceforge.net

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Fri Aug 9 08:06:27 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
Message-ID: <000101c23fc2$50f78800$4051c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Mr. Seaver,
your views are unacceptable. Would you applaud a thief who burgles your
house, because he has shown you how poor your doorlocks were? The virus
makers are criminals. What they do is immoral. They act like terrorists,
who attack unarmed and unsuspecting persons.
A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: Tom Reed <tombreed@attbi.com>
Cc: editor@RockyMountainNews.com <editor@RockyMountainNews.com>;
noem@RockyMountainNews.com <noem@RockyMountainNews.com>; zhangmi
<zhangmi@biogas.com.cn>; gasification <gasification@crest.org>; Stoves
<Stoves@crest.org>; Philreed@aol.com <Philreed@aol.com>; Peter Reed
<preed@linboston.com>; Kevin Reed <kevin.reed@chhn.com>; Katherine Cochrane
<kcochrane@earthlink.net>; Emily Jane Reed <meyer618@hotmail.com>; Shivayam
Ellis <shivayam55@hotmail.com>; Bob Weldon <bobkarlaweldon@cs.com>; Pete
Salinger <petes@ma.ultranet.com>; John Reed <reed112@juno.com>; Emily Jane
Reed <618meyer@hotmail.com>; Pat Duesenberg <PatDuesenberg@cs.com>
Date: Thursday, August 08, 2002 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Capital Punishment for Virus makers

> I don't think we need anymore penalties for virus makers -- I don't
think we
>need the government's involvment at all -- left alone, the free market will
take
>care of the problem. I don't have even the slightest problem with viruses,
>except for seeing all the warning messages about them, and I certainly
don't
>want one penny of my taxes wasted on the government doing anything about
them.
> It's quite simple Tom -- you are using a virus magnet for a mail reader,
and
>an extremely defective operating system. It's an very simple matter for you
>to change to a decent mail reader, and wouldn't be all that difficult for
you to
>change to a real operating system that doesn't get viruses.
> We don't need anymore corporate welfare or draconian laws propping up
>defective products. The computer world is a lot like the auto industry --
most
>people are driving Fords and Chevys, some people drive Audis and
Mercedes --
>except that in the computer world it costs much less to drive a Mercedes.
Go
>figure!
> Surely anyone with the technical mindset to design and build gasifiers
can
>figure out how to install and run an better operating system, eh?
>
>
>
>On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 06:48:47AM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
>> Dear All:
>>
>> Computer viruses are a terrible, but low level nuisance to all of us
computer users. At least one needs virus protection costing maybe $50/yr,
so a tax of $5 billion/year on the 100 million computer users in the US (and
a great boon to the virus protectors who have no incentive to stop
collecting this tax). At worst they cause a loss of 10 to 100 hours of time
to the 100 million users, a "tax" of 1 to 10 billion hours on computer
users.
>>
>> A lifetime (80 years, 8 disposable hours/day) has 15,000 disposable
hours. So this mischief "murders" (10^9/15,000) 67,000 people a year, far
greater than 9/11.
>>
>> I cana't imagine what joy the vius makers get out of their mischief, but
the 67,000 murders and $5 billion should make it a CAPITAL OFFENSE to spread
a virus. Instead, those who are caught are slapped on the wrist.
>>
>> I hope you will join a national campaign to institute more proportionate
penalties for virus bandits. Lifetime imprisonment WITHOUT COMPUTER ACCESS
would be a living hell for them, so lets start with that!
>>
>>
~~~~~~
>> Please forward this to anyone (legislators, pundits, editorial writers
etc.) who you think may help with this campaign.
>>
>> Yours truly, Thomas B. Reed
COLORADO
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>>
>Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.bioenergy2002.org
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.ht
m
>
>

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Aug 9 08:45:35 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
In-Reply-To: <000101c23fc2$50f78800$4051c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <20020809154633.GC30684@cybershamanix.com>

On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 09:23:13PM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> Dear Mr. Seaver,
> your views are unacceptable. Would you applaud a thief who burgles your
> house, because he has shown you how poor your doorlocks were? The virus
> makers are criminals. What they do is immoral. They act like terrorists,
> who attack unarmed and unsuspecting persons.
> A.D.Karve

Sorry, your analogy is a straw man. If someone leaves their doors unlocked
and thieves come in, I have no sympathy for them, they are stupid, and it's
simple Darwinism in action. As a systems administrator, I find my servers
constantly attacked by hackers. Do I get angry at the hackers and want them put
in jail? No, it's my job to keep them out, and the solutions are simple and
elegant, and very, very cheap, i.e., free. I've never spent a penny for
anti-virus software personally, and never will.
The criminals in Congress masquerading as our government recently passed a
law giving life sentences to hackers -- that's absurd, disgusting, and criminal
in and of itself. Giving someone a life sentence for defacing a web site is
equivalent to giving them life for spraypainting graffiti on a wall. If the web
server admin is stupid enough to use bad tools and allow them in, he deserves
what he gets. Again, simple Darwinism.
I recently was working on a project with an agency which handled all the
computing networks, email and webservers for about 1/3 of the state of MN. They
had good Sun unix email and webservers that worked just fine. They then got a
new middle management type who mandated they switch to M$ NT servers. And he,
infact, derided me to my boss because our agency didn't use M$
Outlook. Suddenly, they got a virus that wiped out all their system, all their
files, all their records, and the manager dude kept sending out this virus in
his email to every school in the state. I found out about it when his chief
engineer came to me to get copies of the files for the really major project we
had been working on. I laughed my butt off.
And I'm still laughing my butt off. Darwin will get you if your stupid. And
I've seen case after case in the corporate world where some dimwits with MBA
degrees who thought Bill Gates was god because he made a lot of money force
their engineers to switch to M$ products and then the enterprise would come
close or even fall into bankruptcy, victim of stupidity.
Remember that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Life
sentences or death sentences for hackers and virus writers? Get real! Heil
Hitler! Heil Ashcroft! Heil Dubbya! How about life sentences for drunk drivers
instead? How about executions of those disgusting (unemployable low-lifes in the
civilian world) soldiers who were sent to Afghanistan and bombed and strafed
several villages including a wedding party? How about life sentences and/or
executions for all those criminals in Congress who voted for the USA-Unpatriotic
Act. How about life sentences for the Enron gang?
Let's get some realistic perspective on justice folks. Major, major criminals
in this world walk the streets, hold office, get richer and richer and you want
to send 14 year old kids to life for hacking or writing viruses? Stuff that
only affects defective products in the first place? Geez.
Heil Gates! Heil M$!

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Fri Aug 9 09:01:05 2002
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
In-Reply-To: <000101c23fc2$50f78800$4051c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <3D53F554.852E7675@legacyfound.org>

Harmond,

I agree with Karve completely.

Sure the laws and the system is badly distorted and no 14 year old should have to
go to prizon for life for hacking but your thinking is fundamentally flawed. Change
the system or leave it but I would not wish upon you the experience of living and
working societies which espouse your views.
I know: I have.

Richard Stanley
Legacy Foundation

From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Fri Aug 9 09:09:47 2002
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
Message-ID: <2ab602ab87.2ab872ab60@pmel.noaa.gov>

Hey gang,

You are making me laugh here! I'm about to put this exchange on the
Wrestling Channel. But, um... aren't we a little off topic? ;-)

(220 stovers) x (5 minutes/message) x (10 msgs) = 180 hours.
Okay, you haven't killed anyone yet. Sentenced to community service.

Have a good, virus-free weekend.

cheerio,

Tami

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Aug 9 12:09:52 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: Capital Punishment for Virus makers]
Message-ID: <20020809191055.GB31532@cybershamanix.com>

Sent to me by a friend:

> I really like viruses - IMO, with viruses the virtual world becomes
> part of Mother Nature. Pests only attack badly grown crops that
> shouldn't be there anyway, eh? Nature's censors. M$ is
> chemically-grown shit, kill it, take it away and bury it, LOL! And
> young master Gates too while you're at it.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Aug 9 14:20:43 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:57 2004
Subject: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
Message-ID: <002f01c23ff3$87c606a0$32dcfea9@home>

My dear and quaintly illogical Harmond,

I too agree with Karve completely.

We can quibble about the analogies, however you basically tout rarity as a
form of protection from viruses. You have proposed in earlier messages that
one can stay ahead of the hackers by always moving to systems that are not
frequently attacked. This is not fundamentally different from someone using
a software package as a form of protection. They are two different methods
of protection and they both provide certain levels of safety. However,
anything can be hacked. What do you think Echelon does all day long?
Celestica builds the motherboards that do it. It is easy and they access
everything they want, detected or undetected.

What punishment should be given to someone who, upon being fired, launches a
logic bomb that wipes out 15 years of research into the human genome?
Direct sabotage from within the firewall, not a hack.

What if someone launches a mortar bomb into a light industrial area
destroying an uninhabited building containing the financial records of 355
major corporations requiring 80,000 man-years of work to rebuild? External
physical attack.

What sort of wanton destruction is commendable and what sort is laudable?

A person is not innocent, let alone praiseworthy, if he destroys vast human
achievements simply because he uses mouse clicks instead of trigger clicks.
As you correctly point out, there are may ways in which people destroy the
lives of others. Deliberately doing so premeditatedly, using sophisticated
knowledge intended for beinging benefit to mankind, and just because of
warped personal hatred$ and prejudice$ and bent ego$, is fundamentally and
persistently reprehensible.

In China they take consequences into consideration when sentencing a person.
It fits the crime.

Sincerely
Crispin in Swaziland

PS In rural Sudan people don't have to lock their doors and can leave them
open all day because the people don't steal.

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Aug 9 15:12:05 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
In-Reply-To: <002f01c23ff3$87c606a0$32dcfea9@home>
Message-ID: <20020809221302.GA32038@cybershamanix.com>

On Sat, Aug 10, 2002 at 12:23:37AM +0200, Crispin wrote:
> My dear and quaintly illogical Harmond,

It's Harmon, thanx.

>
> I too agree with Karve completely.
>
> We can quibble about the analogies, however you basically tout rarity as a
> form of protection from viruses.

Not in the slightest -- I think you are not really reading my posts.

> You have proposed in earlier messages that
> one can stay ahead of the hackers by always moving to systems that are not
> frequently attacked.

Hardly -- where in the world do you get that from? I very clearly stated,
repeatedly, that there are excellent technical defenses. Security by obscurity
is not one of them. "always moving to systems that are not frequently
attacked" I can't imagine -- I wouldn't dream of changing to any other OS then
the ones I'm using now, unless, of course, someone truly comes up with something
better, but I'm sure that will always be essentially unix and opensource.

> This is not fundamentally different from someone using
> a software package as a form of protection. They are two different methods
> of protection and they both provide certain levels of safety. However,
> anything can be hacked. What do you think Echelon does all day long?

Echelon doesn't "hack" anything, it listens to net traffic. And there's a
very simple answer to that, opensource encryption, something I'm also very well
versed in.

> Celestica builds the motherboards that do it. It is easy and they access
> everything they want, detected or undetected.
>
No they don't. That's absurd. Want to post some proof of that? I'm been
watching the whole net security thing for many years, and nobody, but nobody,
has the means to access my computers undetected -- unless, of course, they do a
blackbag job on my house. Of course, if you use M$ products, well, that's a
totally different matter, and, of course, many people can access the innards of
your computer, anytime you go on the net. And do. Especially M$.

> What punishment should be given to someone who, upon being fired, launches a
> logic bomb that wipes out 15 years of research into the human genome?
> Direct sabotage from within the firewall, not a hack.

That would be rather impossible in almost any enterprise -- you have heard of
backups? And offsite storage of backups? Geez, even libraries commonly do that.

>
> What if someone launches a mortar bomb into a light industrial area
> destroying an uninhabited building containing the financial records of 355
> major corporations requiring 80,000 man-years of work to rebuild? External
> physical attack.
>
see the above -- you're getting absurd.

> What sort of wanton destruction is commendable and what sort is laudable?
>

Well, what about the wanton destruction committed by governments? What about
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What about the US attack on Panama to depose the legal
gov't, killing thousands of innocent civilians. What about Klinton's bombing of
Sudan killing innocent civilians? What about -- god, there are simply countless
examples. And counting.

> A person is not innocent, let alone praiseworthy, if he destroys vast human
> achievements simply because he uses mouse clicks instead of trigger clicks.
> As you correctly point out, there are may ways in which people destroy the
> lives of others. Deliberately doing so premeditatedly, using sophisticated
> knowledge intended for beinging benefit to mankind, and just because of
> warped personal hatred$ and prejudice$ and bent ego$, is fundamentally and
> persistently reprehensible.

Good grief -- any enterprise which is so clueless to not have sufficiently
protected itself, and to have compounded the error by not having sufficient
backups offsite in case of the improbable absolutely deserves whatever happens
-- and I hope, for the good on the world, not just mankind (in fact, especially
for the good of the earth, to hell with mankind) they get Darwined soonest.

>
> In China they take consequences into consideration when sentencing a person.
> It fits the crime.
>
> Sincerely
> Crispin in Swaziland
>
> PS In rural Sudan people don't have to lock their doors and can leave them
> open all day because the people don't steal.
>

Yes, that used to be the case in North America before the European evil came.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Artsolar at aol.com Fri Aug 9 18:13:41 2002
From: Artsolar at aol.com (Artsolar@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
Message-ID: <e5.1c10755d.2a85d097@aol.com>

Stovers,

I suggest we stop fueling H's eccentricities and rants by getting back on message.

Art

From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Aug 9 18:54:22 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
In-Reply-To: <e5.1c10755d.2a85d097@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIAEHICAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Hi
all:

 I am as mad as anyone at the time I
have lost to those sending viruses. And I agree with "Artsolar" that we
should stay on message. (Anyone want to send me anything fstove-related
for WSSD? Time is running out - I leave August 22.)

 But I believe that not only is
Harmon a very talented stove researcher (that we don't hear enough from) - he is
also probably our most knowledgeable computer specialist (probably eccentric
like most of us - but not a ranter). I am going personally to take his
advice and get off of Outlook.

Ron

-----Original Message-----From: Artsolar@aol.com
[mailto:Artsolar@aol.com]Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 8:13
PMTo: stoves@crest.org;
hseaver@cybershamanix.comSubject: Re: Capital Punishment for Virus
makersStovers,
I suggest we stop fueling H's eccentricities and rants by getting back
on message. Art

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Aug 10 07:02:21 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: FW: Fw: Banboo (from Alex English)
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIEEHPCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers (especially Crispin):

Alex English has kindly supplied the answers to the questions I posed a few
weeks ago about charcoaling of bamboo. I add one comment. I still think we
should be doing a lot more investigating of bamboo because of its rapid
growth characteristics (and the straightness aspect mentioned below).

> Questions for Alex:
> 1. What charcoal conversion efficiency by weight were you achieving
(% by weight) - both in Canada and in India?

ALEX: I don't often weigh the charcoal as it is usually in the 20-25%
range. I would be more interested in the yield if I could also assess the
quality.

RON: I vaguely remember Paul Hait saying there were some US standards.
Anyone knolwedgeable on what comprises good vs bad charcoal?

> 2. Anything special or unusual about using bamboo as a feedstock?
(Did
> pyrolysis go a lot faster, being less dense?)

ALEX: I wasn't around to check at the end of the burn cycle. We left that
for the snakes.

> 3. Did the charcoal from bamboo appear fairly normal?

ALEX: Yes.

> 4. Presumably there was no possibility of taking out the small amount
> of material that periodically blocks the air flow up the middle of bamboo.
> However, was there any evidence that pyrolysis gases were predominantly
> exiting up the inside of the biomass stalks, rather than outside?
(anything
> like the "holey briquette"?)

ALEX: I don't think that bamboo's structure affected the normal downward
movement of the pyrolysis front. Bamboo's primary advantage is that it is
straight and can be packed tightly into a container.

Alex

Alex English
399 Church St
Enterprise Ontario
Canada K0K 1Z0

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Sat Aug 10 07:44:12 2002
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Bamboo pith removal, village style
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIEEHPCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <3D5534C9.AECA7AAF@legacyfound.org>

Ron, Crispin, & Alex:

When in Peace corps a thousand years ago, I used to make water pumps out of bamboo .
As par of the process, I was taught by the 'bas un nahs' in Ambepussa how to remove
the dividing walls along the interior of the bamboo.

They simply poked in an iron rod (about 1" dia x 4 ft ) about three feet into one
end, then up-ended the pole (usually about a 20 ft length) with the rod sticking out
the top.

They would then proceed to stomp the whole assembly up and down, created effectively
a drive hammer which caused the rod work its way down through the bamboo til it
reached the ground. This might have been repeated two or three times until it was
opened up.

It produced a nice $2.00 water pump cyllinder and might suggest a way to open up the
bamboo for burning up the center in a developing nation environment. I would imagine
this with a simple jig to cut off lengths fo say 3 to 5 inches might make a nice fuel
source but I have no idea about thermal characteristics of the raw stock , much less
the characteristics of bamboo charcoal.

Richard Stanley

================================

Ron Larson wrote:

> Stovers (especially Crispin):
>
> Alex English has kindly supplied the answers to the questions I posed a few
> weeks ago about charcoaling of bamboo. I add one comment. I still think we
> should be doing a lot more investigating of bamboo because of its rapid
> growth characteristics (and the straightness aspect mentioned below).
>
> > Questions for Alex:
> > 1. What charcoal conversion efficiency by weight were you achieving
> (% by weight) - both in Canada and in India?
>
> ALEX: I don't often weigh the charcoal as it is usually in the 20-25%
> range. I would be more interested in the yield if I could also assess the
> quality.
>
> RON: I vaguely remember Paul Hait saying there were some US standards.
> Anyone knolwedgeable on what comprises good vs bad charcoal?
>
> > 2. Anything special or unusual about using bamboo as a feedstock?
> (Did
> > pyrolysis go a lot faster, being less dense?)
>
> ALEX: I wasn't around to check at the end of the burn cycle. We left that
> for the snakes.
>
> > 3. Did the charcoal from bamboo appear fairly normal?
>
> ALEX: Yes.
>
> > 4. Presumably there was no possibility of taking out the small amount
> > of material that periodically blocks the air flow up the middle of bamboo.
> > However, was there any evidence that pyrolysis gases were predominantly
> > exiting up the inside of the biomass stalks, rather than outside?
> (anything
> > like the "holey briquette"?)
>
> ALEX: I don't think that bamboo's structure affected the normal downward
> movement of the pyrolysis front. Bamboo's primary advantage is that it is
> straight and can be packed tightly into a container.
>
> Alex
>
> Alex English
> 399 Church St
> Enterprise Ontario
> Canada K0K 1Z0
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From dstill at epud.net Sat Aug 10 08:05:04 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
Message-ID: <002001c240f6$242174a0$bb1e6c0c@default>

Dear Friends,

As I've said, the June Aprovecho stove class was very enjoyable. We continue
to learn together as two students/colleagues, Damon Ogle and Jeff Stutz,
have been returning to help in the lab and doing their own experiments. Jeff
is completing the 4' by 10' Rocket wood fired agricultural dryer, Damon and
Ken Goyer have presented us with a ceramic brick material for combustion
chambers that weighs .48 the weight of water by volume! Should be quite
insulative...floats like a cork.

Damon's report just arrived describing this alternative approach. Instead
of burning 50% combustibles from a 50% clay binder, a small amount of clay
binder is added to very large percentages, 85% to 95%, light material like
perlite, pumice, vermiculite, etc. The trick is to screen the rock like when
building better gravel roads. Damon, an engineer, describes the process:

"A (rock) aggregate mix is used in construction to produce a blend of
different sizes of crushed rock which can be mixed with a binder (asphalt,
cement or just plain water) to form a durable solid for road surfaces and
other structures. The basic idea is to form a mass which “locks” together
using a minimum amount of binder. Asphalt and cement are expensive compared
to crushed rock. Engineers and contractors have invested thousands of hours
and countless dollars to develop formulas for good aggregate mixes for
specific uses.
To help visualize how an aggregate mix works, one could imagine having four
piles of different size materials: (1) Walnuts (2) marbles (3) peas (4)
flour. Any single pile by itself would be loose and unstable with lots of
air voids between the pieces.
Imagine making a mix by first placing the walnuts in a form. Now add just
enough marbles to the mix to fill all the “marble size” voids between the
walnuts. Next add the right amount of peas to fill all the “pea size”
voids. Finally, add enough flour to fill any remaining air spaces in the
mix. Now it is a fairly solid mass in which each size material locks in all
the others. The mass uses a minimum amount of flour because all the voids
are already filled by larger size pieces (the marbles and peas).
New bricks:
Last month at Aprovecho we wanted to construct insulative bricks, using
perlite (extremely light) for an aggregate mix and Ken’s clay formula for a
binder.
Because of my past experience in rock crushing and materials testing, I
volunteered to prepare the aggregate mix. To avoid “re-inventing the wheel”
I used a mix design, which is used by the Forest Service to make asphalt
pavement. To this mix (all rock) they would then add 5% or 6% asphalt and
roll it on a road to form “blacktop”. I knew this gradation was relatively
easy to make and worked well in the real world. These gradations are
usually written in terms of percentage by weight, passing a particular
screen size. The gradation is as follows:
Gradation Specification
spec ideal
Sieve Size % passing % passing
3/8" 95 to 100 97.5
#4 75 to 90 82.5
#8 62 to 82 72
#16 38 to 58 48
#30 22 to42 32
#50 11 to 28 19.5
#200 2 to 10 6

"We decided to add the clay portion to our mix by volume rather than by
weight since powdered clay mix is so much heavier than the perlite mix. We
knew that we needed to add 6% to the perlite aggregate mix alone to bring it
into spec. We also thought that we should add another 5% or 6% to
substitute for the asphalt which would normally be added for binder in a
pavement mix. This would add up to a total clay proportion of 10% or 11% by
volume. We opted to add 15% clay mix to the first brick, 10 % to the second
and 5% to the third."

The resulting bricks seem quite durable and more bricks will be made for
testing in stoves. Dr. Margaret Pinnell and her class of engineering
students at University of Dayton will be making up test samples and
analyzing them for strength, abrasion resistance, density, conductivity,
etc. They will report on their experiments in January at the ETHOS stove
conference in Seattle.

We are planning to test riser sleeves, and other products (including a
perlite/clay board for sale), complete tests on both approaches to making
homemade ceramic insulative refractory material and will post the results
as completed.

The August 19 to 23 Aprovecho stove course will concentrate on creating the
world's cleanest burning cooking stove. All are invited. Contact me for
details. So far we have folks coming from UC Berkeley, UC Santa Cruz,
University of Illinois, Damon will return with Ken to introduce brick
making, etc.

Best,

Dean

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Aug 10 11:56:03 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Capital Punishment for Virus makers
Message-ID: <003b01c240a8$84345220$8223fea9@home>

Dear Ron

>...not only is Harmon a very talented stove researcher
(that we don't
>hear enough from) - he is also probably our most
knowledgeable computer
>specialist (probably eccentric like most of us -
but not a ranter). I am going
>personally to take his advice and get off of
Outlook.

Thankyou for saying something nice about
Harmon as we close this subject. Good luck with your software
changes.

Regards
Crispin

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Sat Aug 10 13:37:38 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Roberto_Escard=F3?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
In-Reply-To: <002001c240f6$242174a0$bb1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <008a01c240b6$4df4ce70$0100a8c0@pentium>

As metric standard sieves sizes do not
coincide with US Std ones, the accepted equivalences are:

<TABLE
style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-table-layout-alt: fixed; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 1.5pt 0cm 1.5pt"
cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>

<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 76pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 25.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=top width=101>
Sieve Size<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
US
Std.
<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 62pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 25.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
Metric
mm.

<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 76pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 25.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=top width=101>
 3/8"
<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 62pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 25.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
9,52

<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 76pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #4
<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 62pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
4,75

<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 76pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #8
<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 62pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
2,41

<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 76pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #16
<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 62pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
1,00

<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 76pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #30
<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 62pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
0,5

<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 76pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #50
<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 62pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
0,295

<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 76pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #200
<TD
style="BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 62pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
0,075

Regards
Roberto Escardó

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <<A
href="mailto:dstill@epud.net">dstill@epud.net>
To: <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org>; "ethos"
<ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>;
<PIKruff@aol.com>; "george
howe" <george.howe@verizon.net>; "George Rudy" <<A
href="mailto:rudy@wehi.EDU.AU">rudy@wehi.EDU.AU>; "David
Berry" <david@usabal.com>;
"Patrick Flynn" <pattiflynn@hotmail.com>; "peter" <<A
href="mailto:apropeter@hotmail.com">apropeter@hotmail.com>;
"miguel hatfield" <miguelhatfield@hotmail.com>; "Jim Wilmes" <<A
href="mailto:jimwilmes@hotmail.com">jimwilmes@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:48
PM
Subject: Another Approach to Homemade
Refractory Material
> Dear Friends,> > As I've said, the
June Aprovecho stove class was very enjoyable. We continue> to learn
together as two students/colleagues, Damon Ogle and Jeff Stutz,> have
been returning to help in the lab and doing their own experiments. Jeff>
is completing the 4' by 10' Rocket wood fired agricultural dryer, Damon
and> Ken Goyer have presented us with a ceramic brick material for
combustion> chambers that weighs .48 the weight of water by volume!
Should be quite> insulative...floats like a cork.> >
Damon's report just arrived describing this alternative approach.
Instead> of burning 50% combustibles from a 50% clay binder, a small
amount of clay> binder is added to very large percentages, 85% to 95%,
light material like> perlite, pumice, vermiculite, etc. The trick is to
screen the rock like when> building better gravel roads. Damon, an
engineer, describes the process:> > "A (rock) aggregate mix is
used in construction to produce a blend of> different sizes of crushed
rock which can be mixed with a binder (asphalt,> cement or just plain
water) to form a durable solid for road surfaces and> other
structures. The basic idea is to form a mass which "locks"
together> using a minimum amount of binder. Asphalt and cement are
expensive compared> to crushed rock. Engineers and contractors have
invested thousands of hours> and countless dollars to develop formulas
for good aggregate mixes for> specific uses.> To help
visualize how an aggregate mix works, one could imagine having four>
piles of different size materials: (1) Walnuts (2) marbles (3) peas
(4)> flour. Any single pile by itself would be loose and unstable
with lots of> air voids between the pieces.> Imagine making a mix
by first placing the walnuts in a form. Now add just> enough
marbles to the mix to fill all the "marble size" voids between the>
walnuts. Next add the right amount of peas to fill all the "pea
size"> voids. Finally, add enough flour to fill any remaining air
spaces in the> mix. Now it is a fairly solid mass in which each
size material locks in all> the others. The mass uses a minimum
amount of flour because all the voids> are already filled by larger size
pieces (the marbles and peas).> New bricks:> Last month at
Aprovecho we wanted to construct insulative bricks, using> perlite
(extremely light) for an aggregate mix and Ken's clay formula for a>
binder.> Because of my past experience in rock crushing and
materials testing, I> volunteered to prepare the aggregate mix. To
avoid "re-inventing the wheel"> I used a mix design, which is used by the
Forest Service to make asphalt> pavement. To this mix (all rock)
they would then add 5% or 6% asphalt and> roll it on a road to form
"blacktop". I knew this gradation was relatively> easy to make and
worked well in the real world. These gradations are> usually
written in terms of percentage by weight, passing a particular> screen
size. The gradation is as follows:> Gradation Specification>
spec ideal> Sieve Size % passing %
passing>
3/8" 95 to
100 97.5>
#4 75 to
90 82.5>

#8 62 to
82 72>
#16 38 to
58 48>
#30 22
to42 32>
#50 11 to
28 19.5>
#200 2 to
10
6> > "We decided to add the clay portion to our mix by volume
rather than by> weight since powdered clay mix is so much heavier than
the perlite mix. We> knew that we needed to add 6% to the perlite
aggregate mix alone to bring it> into spec. We also thought that we
should add another 5% or 6% to> substitute for the asphalt which would
normally be added for binder in a> pavement mix. This would add up
to a total clay proportion of 10% or 11% by> volume. We opted to
add 15% clay mix to the first brick, 10 % to the second> and 5% to the
third."> > The resulting bricks seem quite durable and more bricks
will be made for> testing in stoves. Dr. Margaret Pinnell and her class
of engineering> students at University of Dayton will be making up test
samples and> analyzing them for strength, abrasion resistance, density,
conductivity,> etc. They will report on their experiments in January at
the ETHOS stove> conference in Seattle.> > We are planning
to test riser sleeves, and other products (including a> perlite/clay
board for sale), complete tests on both approaches to making> homemade
ceramic insulative refractory material and will post the results>
as completed.> > The August 19 to 23 Aprovecho stove course will
concentrate on creating the> world's cleanest burning cooking stove. All
are invited. Contact me for> details. So far we have folks coming from UC
Berkeley, UC Santa Cruz,> University of Illinois, Damon will return with
Ken to introduce brick> making, etc.> > Best,>
> Dean> > > -> Stoves List Archives and
Website:> <A
href="http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/">http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/> <A
href="http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/">http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/> >> Stoves List Moderators:> Ron
Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net>
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com>
>> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>> List-Help: <<A
href="mailto:stoves-help@crest.org">mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>> List-Unsubscribe: <<A
href="mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org">mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>> List-Subscribe: <<A
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href="http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html">http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html> -> Other Biomass Stoves Events and
Information:> http://www.bioenergy2002.org> <A
href="http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html">http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy> <A
href="http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html">http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification> <A
href="http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html">http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon> >> For information about
CHAMBERS STOVES>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm>

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Aug 10 20:37:59 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Bamboo pith removal, village style
In-Reply-To: <3D5534C9.AECA7AAF@legacyfound.org>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEIGCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Ron: I'd love to hear from anyone when they test the charcoaling process
with and without the scheme described by Richard. I think there should be a
sizeable difference, but don't know which way.

Richard said:

When in Peace corps a thousand years ago, I used to make water pumps out of
bamboo .
As par of the process, I was taught by the 'bas un nahs' in Ambepussa how to
remove
the dividing walls along the interior of the bamboo.

They simply poked in an iron rod (about 1" dia x 4 ft ) about three feet
into one
end, then up-ended the pole (usually about a 20 ft length) with the rod
sticking out
the top.

They would then proceed to stomp the whole assembly up and down, created
effectively
a drive hammer which caused the rod work its way down through the bamboo til
it
reached the ground. This might have been repeated two or three times until
it was
opened up.

<snip>

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Aug 10 21:26:46 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: [ethos] Fw: Pumice
In-Reply-To: <002701c240a1$47a80060$b31e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMEIICAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Dean:

 It looks like good advances are
being made by the Ethos partners in the lightweight, tough insulator
business. I like all that I hear.

 This is to raise a question of
another different approach that I know nothing about - but like the product
(tentatively). This was seen at Tom Reed's house a few days ago. A
very tough looking, gray, hard, probably ceramic product, with thin webs
separating air cavities that were very regular and of about 1 mm dimension (a
guess from memory). Looked like it could be sawed with a hacksaw blade
(but we didn't try.)

 This floated about half way
(specific gravity of about 0.5), and didn't appear to take up a lot of water
(well sealed pores). Tom had picked it up in Germany and did not remember
particulars. Probably expensive - but was the nicest looking (high
temperature, I think) insulator I have seen (in terms of ruggedness). This
is in stark comparison to the very expensive "chalky, soft" kiln bricks used by
my wife and other potters, which have excellent thermal propeties , but not very
good mechanical properties.

 Anyone (probably in Europe) able to
give an idea how this product might have been manufactured? Any
chance for a locally manufactured approach? What
costs?

Ron

-----Original Message-----From: owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu
[<A
href="mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu">mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu]
 On Behalf Of Dean
StillSent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:07 PMTo:
robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar; ethosSubject: [ethos] Fw:
Pumice
Dear Roberto,

Although the pumice looks to be all of one size, it probably
will sift into different sizes when you use the screens. We are not sure what
is the best clay to add to the pumice, but Ken is doing experiments right now
to find out...The 10% mixture that was used in the bricks we have was: 2 parts
regular clay that melts at a lower temperature, 1 part green clay that melts
at a very high temperature and 1 part cement to make it dry hard. If you do
experiments talking with Ken could be very useful: <A
href="mailto:goyen@efn.org">goyen@efn.org

I'm hoping that all of us studying this technique
can invent bricks or tiles that make up the combustion chamber. It's great
that there is a lot of pumice where you want to work! I'm sure that we can
figure out how to combine it with clay to make insulative combustion
chambers!! Once we have good combustion chambers the rest of the stove is easy
to create...

Best,

Dean
From: Roberto Escardó <<A
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar>To:
Damon Ogle <<A
href="mailto:monogle@oregoncoast.com">monogle@oregoncoast.com>; Dean
Still <dstill@epud.net>Date:
Saturday, August 10, 2002 2:46 PMSubject:
Pumice

Damon:
In your paper(Dean sent it to
me) you say:
. Pumice
particles are not all of the same density and the bricks we made ended up
being heavier than we wanted.
We have here a pumice that is very ligth
(I guess density is 0.4 kg/cc but I could not measure it exactly) and
homogeneous, but the bigger particules are below 5 mm. (IE #4) According
to your experience is this a problem?
(In the area we will be working there
are trillion of tonnes of pumice, in fact anywhere in the valleys you
find layers 2 to 5 meters high under the topsoil and also in river and lakes
shores. I just got one sac for trials, but I will be in the zone next
month and I can try to find a bigger partles. Anyway we can arrive at the
exact mis, material is almost free)
Thanks for your excelent
work
Roberto Escardó

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Aug 11 04:19:45 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
In-Reply-To: <002001c240f6$242174a0$bb1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <003301c24131$65940e80$f095fea9@home>

Thanks Roberto

From snkm at btl.net Sun Aug 11 07:44:36 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020811213646.0096eaf0@wgs1.btl.net>

Folks -- this is called a "Bloatware" message.

Read below to see what a bloatware message looks like in plain text ASCII --

Understand that these "style" messages are not read by people that follow
net-etiquette for mail lists -- that being all postings should be in plain
ASCII text only!!

No way you can catch a virus --

But especially important -- very small and compact for downloading.

Which is still important to us living in 3rd world.

Information -- not bells and whistles -- please!!

Or just become a MS perfect -- wrapped in flag -- US mail list -- only!!

What is it with people??

Did not a series of postings on using bloatware -- it's adverse effects --
just occur on this list??

How much education is required to hit the "standard text only" when
replying button found on even bloatware Email programs??

The following message is just about totally unreadable -- is 14 kb in size.

Apparently -- it's only function is to say:

"Thanks Roberto"

Only in America???

What kind of message in regards to a serious seeker of biomass combustion
"efficiencies" does this present??

The message is these people play games -- they are not serious --

Their time has come -- and now it is gone. They are "lost".

And not even the courtesy to post in plain text only --

Peter / Belize

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Reply-To: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
From: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>
References: <002001c240f6$242174a0$bb1e6c0c@default>
<008a01c240b6$4df4ce70$0100a8c0@pentium>
Subject: Re: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:52:52 +0200
Organization: New Dawn Engineering
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700

Thanks Roberto cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
vAlign=top width=101>

style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Sieve Size
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">US Std. vAlign=bottom noWrap
width=83>

Metric

mm. vAlign=top width=101>

style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> 3/8" vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
align=right>9,52 vAlign=top width=101>

style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #4 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
align=right>4,75 vAlign=top width=101>

style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #8 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
align=right>2,41 vAlign=top width=101>

style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #16 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
align=right>1,00 vAlign=top width=101>

style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #30 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
align=right>0,5 vAlign=top width=101>

style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #50 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
align=right>0,295 vAlign=top width=101>

style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #200 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
align=right>0,075 We in the metrified world are used to a
standard 'grading' from a soils lab having the following sieves: 4.75 2.41
1.2 600 microns 300 150 75 Pan In the interests of replicability, I wonder
if Dean could post the grading of what worked best in the above sizes? Or
perhaps gives us a best-fit from a curve? Than

From dstill at epud.net Sun Aug 11 08:52:00 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
Message-ID: <001801c2411c$49445560$b91e6c0c@default>

Dear Crispin,
Until the University of Dayton crew compare different mixes we only have our
very limited experience to share but the three bricks did look ok. Following is
the rest of Damon's report detailing their experiment.
Best,
Dean
"The ideal gradation would of course be in the middle of each size range
but this is very hard to achieve in the real world. As long as each size fell
somewhere in the designated range the mix would probably work OK.
Preparation:
Using a shaker screen and nesting test sieves, (These should be available
at most materials testing labs) we separated out about three large buckets full
of regular perlite into its component sizes. We did not use a #16 sieve (because
we didnâ€™t have one) nor the #200 sieve (because I knew it was almost
impossible to dry sieve out much #200, which is about like talcum powder). When
we weighed the portions and calculated the results we got the following:

Perlite (from the bag)

Gradation Specification

spec

actual

actual

actual

Sieve Size

% passing

Wt. retained

Wt. passing

% passing

3/8"

95 to 100

0

1261

100

#4

75 to 90

248

1013

80.3

#8

62 to 82

617

396

31.4

#16

38 to 58

#30

22 to42

314

82

6.5

#50

11 to 28

40

42

3.3

#200

2 to 10

pan

42

Looking at the actual percent passing verses the spec percent passing we
see that the 3/8" and #4 fall within allowable ranges, but the rest are far
shy of what is needed. What this is telling us is that we have too many
"marbles" to make a good mix. We need to get rid of some of the #4 to
#8 material.
I also noticed that very little of the material that had passed the #50 sieve
looked like #200 material and I realized that we would have to get our # 200
portion from Kenâ€™s clay mix. Clays are mostly #200 â€“
material.
Our Mix:
If there were unlimited amounts of each size component available it would be
easy to make an "ideal" mix simply by weighing out the ideal
percentages and mixing them together. Unfortunately in our case, there was a
severe shortage of several sizes. We wanted to be able to make several sample
bricks using the components we had available. After juggling the numbers on the
components we had to work with, I was able to come up with enough mix to make
three sample bricks using the following proportions:

Our Mix Gradation

actual

actual

actual

spec

Sieve Size

grams retained

grams passing

% passing

% passing

3/8"

767

100%

95 to 100

#4

155

about 1/2 of what is available

612

79.8%

75 to 90

#8

173

about 1/4 of what is available

439

57.2%

62 to 82

#16

38 to 58

#30

311

all that is available

128

16.7%

22 to42

#50

40

all that is available

88

11.4%

11 to 28

#200

42

all that is available

46

6.0%

2 to 10

pan

46

equiv. 6% to come from clay mix

You will notice that we are out of spec on the #8 and the #30. I was able to
justify these discrepancies to myself based on two facts. (1) When we separated
the original perlite, we ran each of the many batches for only three minutes
rather than the customary five to 10 minutes. If we had shaken the samples
longer we would have seen more material passing each sieve and the percentages
passing would have been higher. (2) We didnâ€™t dry the perlite before we
screened it. Residual moisture tends to impede screening. This is especially
true for the finer mesh sizes. All this being said, the fact remains that I
"tweaked " the mix, but only slightly.
Clay proportions:
We decided to add the clay portion to our mix by volume rather than by
weight since powdered clay mix is so much heavier than the perlite mix. We knew
that we needed to add 6% to the perlite aggregate mix alone to bring it into
spec. We also thought that we should add another 5% or 6% to substitute for the
asphalt which would normally be added for binder in a pavement mix. This would
add up to a total clay proportion of 10% or 11% by volume. We opted to
add 15% clay mix to the first brick, 10 % to the second and 5% to the third.
We divided the perlite mix into three portions of 2200 cc. each. We then
added the following volumes of clay:

brick #1

brick #2

brick #3

perlite mix

2200 cc

2200 cc

2200 cc

clay mix

388 cc

244 cc

116 cc

total

2588 cc

2444 cc

2316 cc

%clay

15%

10%

5%

by volume

Making bricks:
The dry perlite aggregate-clay mix was mixed with water (caution- not too
much) to form a mortar and poured into wooden molds. The mix was then lightly
tamped using the broken end of another brick. We tried to work the air pockets
out without tamping so hard that the perlite was crushed. The bricks were
allowed to dry before firing.
Ken Goyen is the best source for providing the details on the clay mix and
firing process. This is his area of expertise and he is quite knowledgeable. I
was not involved in the process. DEAN ADDS: CLAY MIX IS 2 PARTS LOW FIRE CLAY,
ONE PART HIGH FIRE CLAY< 1 PART CEMENT. WE CONTINUE TO EXPERIMENT WITH
DIFFERENT MIXES>
I was present for the first testing of the trial bricks and the 10% and 15%
bricks looked very good. I hope they will prove out.
Recommendations:
If you could prepare a perlite mix that is closer to the ideal
proportions you would probably have better results with all clay percentages. My
gut feeling is that you could probably get good results using a
"mid-range" perlite mix and a 7-½% clay mix. Remember again
that the perlite was mixed by weight but the clay was added by volume.

The extra perlite, which is not needed in the mix, could either be discarded
or crushed and added to the raw mix to provide more of the scarce smaller sizes.
Perlite can be reduced simply by rubbing it between your hands or using some
other simple method. Be careful not to crush it too much. What we are looking
for is a spectrum of sizes rather than all fine powder.
You might also want to try making a perlite mix which is
"borderline" on either the "bony" or the "fine"
edge of the gradation range.
It may also be possible to make good bricks from natural pumice but there are
more wrinkles here. Pumice particles are not all of the same density and the
bricks we made ended up being heavier than we wanted.
Damon Ogle
-----Original Message-----From:
Crispin <<A
href="mailto:crispin@newdawn.sz">crispin@newdawn.sz>To: Stoves
<stoves@crest.org>Date:
Sunday, August 11, 2002 5:19 AMSubject: Re: Another Approach to
Homemade Refractory Material
Thanks Roberto

<TABLE border=0 cellPadding=0 cellSpacing=0
style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-table-layout-alt: fixed; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 1.5pt 0cm 1.5pt">

<TD
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 25.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 76pt"
vAlign=top width=101>
Sieve Size
US
Std.
<TD noWrap
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 25.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 62pt"
vAlign=bottom width=83>
Metric
mm.

<TD
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 25.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 76pt"
vAlign=top width=101>

3/8"
<TD noWrap
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 25.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 62pt"
vAlign=bottom width=83>
9,52

<TD
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 76pt"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #4
<TD noWrap
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 62pt"
vAlign=bottom width=83>
4,75

<TD
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 76pt"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #8
<TD noWrap
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 62pt"
vAlign=bottom width=83>
2,41

<TD
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 76pt"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #16
<TD noWrap
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 62pt"
vAlign=bottom width=83>
1,00

<TD
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 76pt"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #30
<TD noWrap
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 62pt"
vAlign=bottom width=83>
0,5

<TD
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 76pt"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #50
<TD noWrap
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 62pt"
vAlign=bottom width=83>
0,295

<TD
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; WIDTH: 76pt"
vAlign=top width=101>
 #200
<TD noWrap
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 62pt"
vAlign=bottom width=83>
0,075

We in the metrified world are used to a
standard 'grading' from a soils lab having the following sieves:

4.75
2.41
1.2
600 microns
300
150
75
Pan

In the interests of replicability, I wonder if Dean could post
the grading of what worked best in the above sizes? Or perhaps gives us a
best-fit from a curve?

Thanks
Crispin

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Aug 11 11:01:54 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020811213646.0096eaf0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <002901c24169$f9c05c20$798dfea9@home>

Dear Peter

On the topic of bloatware, I would like the trailer at the end of each
message from STOVES greatly reduced as well. It is a terrible waste of disk
space.

Regards
Crispin

From tmiles at trmiles.com Sun Aug 11 11:36:29 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Photos: Making Charcoal from Chopstick Bamboo in Lampang Thailand
Message-ID: <004101c2416e$39c190b0$6501a8c0@tommain>

Stovers,

Matthew Owen's photos of making charcoal from
chopstick bamboo in Lampang, Thailand, are now on the Stoves web page at <A
href="http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/">http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

Follow the link to <A
href="http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Owen/Lampang/Lampangcharcoal.html">http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Owen/Lampang/Lampangcharcoal.html

Thanks Matthew,

Tom Miles

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Mon Aug 12 01:57:44 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Bloatware
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020811213646.0096eaf0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812195252.00a5f2e0@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 21:03 11/08/02 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear Peter
>
>On the topic of bloatware, I would like the trailer at the end of each
>message from STOVES greatly reduced as well. It is a terrible waste of disk
>space.
>
>Regards
>Crispin
>

Yes, apparently someone periodically has to draw attention to it. And yet
it is so easy hit Ctrl and End while depressing the Shift key and then hit
Delete, just like I will after the next line.

Peter Verhaart

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Aug 12 04:25:31 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: FW from Alex English: CNN Headline: Pollution from Stoves
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEJGCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Alex: Thanks

Stovers:
See the following message from Alex.
I have talked several months ago with Tami Bond about this topic. The
article talks about atmospheric warming and surface cooling. Tami says that
there is some evidence of surface warming also from certain types of
particulates at certain heights - so this is a complicated topic.
Unfortunately, Tami went on vacation recently and we will have to wait for
her further comment. I tried to find the UN report alluded to here, but had
no success. Anyone able to offer a link to the actual report?

Three quotes from the article:

1. First paragraph: -- A dense blanket of pollution, dubbed the "Asian
Brown Cloud," is hovering over South Asia, with scientists warning it could
kill millions of people in the region, and pose a global threat.

2. Middle: "A large part of the aerosol cloud comes from inefficient
cookers, where fuels such as cowdung and kerosene are used to cook food in
many parts of Asia, says Mitra."

3. last paragraph: " But because the lifetime of pollutants are short and
they can be rained out, scientists are hopeful that if Asians use more
efficient ways of burning fuel, such as better stoves, and cleaner sources
of energy, time has not run out."

My view still is that the WSSD is not paying enough attention to stoves as
a major issue - and this news report is the best support of that position I
have seen.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex English [mailto:english@kingston.net]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 4:54 AM
To: Ron Larson
Subject: CNN Headline: Pollution from Stoves

Ronal,
The stovers will surely be interested to see this article referencing recent
scientific work on health and climate change due to the "brown cloud" over
the
Indian sub-continent.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/08/12/asia.haze/index.html

Alex
Alex English
399 Church St
Enterprise Ontario
Canada K0K 1Z0

From tombreed at attbi.com Mon Aug 12 05:05:16 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:58 2004
Subject: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020811213646.0096eaf0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <005501c24201$0f32c060$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Peter:

Message received and I've changed preferences to Plain Text Only. Should be
PTO for communications with STOVES, or mabe just Peter S, because no one but
you has made this complaint. Might be easier for you to change than
everybody else.

I recently saw the following (joke) message:

Call me at II VII VIII V V VIII.

(Roman numeral phone number. Glad we have converted from RN to
Arabic/Indian.)

Your well meaning friend, TOM REED
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
To: <Stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material

>
>
> Folks -- this is called a "Bloatware" message.
>
> Read below to see what a bloatware message looks like in plain text
ASCII --
>
> Understand that these "style" messages are not read by people that follow
> net-etiquette for mail lists -- that being all postings should be in plain
> ASCII text only!!
>
> No way you can catch a virus --
>
> But especially important -- very small and compact for downloading.
>
> Which is still important to us living in 3rd world.
>
> Information -- not bells and whistles -- please!!
>
> Or just become a MS perfect -- wrapped in flag -- US mail list -- only!!
>
> What is it with people??
>
> Did not a series of postings on using bloatware -- it's adverse effects --
> just occur on this list??
>
> How much education is required to hit the "standard text only" when
> replying button found on even bloatware Email programs??
>
> The following message is just about totally unreadable -- is 14 kb in
size.
>
> Apparently -- it's only function is to say:
>
> "Thanks Roberto"
>
> Only in America???
>
> What kind of message in regards to a serious seeker of biomass combustion
> "efficiencies" does this present??
>
> The message is these people play games -- they are not serious --
>
> Their time has come -- and now it is gone. They are "lost".
>
> And not even the courtesy to post in plain text only --
>
> Peter / Belize
>
>
>
> Return-Path: <stoves-return-5408-snkm=btl.net@crest.org>
> Mailing-List: contact stoves-help@crest.org; run by ezmlm
> X-No-Archive: yes
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> Delivered-To: mailing list stoves@crest.org
> Reply-To: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> From: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> To: "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>
> References: <002001c240f6$242174a0$bb1e6c0c@default>
> <008a01c240b6$4df4ce70$0100a8c0@pentium>
> Subject: Re: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
> Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:52:52 +0200
> Organization: New Dawn Engineering
> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
>
> Thanks Roberto cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
> vAlign=top width=101>
>
> style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Sieve Size
> "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
>
> style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> mso-ansi-language: EN-US">US Std. vAlign=bottom noWrap
> width=83>
>
> Metric
>
> mm. vAlign=top width=101>
>
> style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> 3/8" vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> align=right>9,52 vAlign=top width=101>
>
> style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #4 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> align=right>4,75 vAlign=top width=101>
>
> style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #8 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> align=right>2,41 vAlign=top width=101>
>
> style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #16 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> align=right>1,00 vAlign=top width=101>
>
> style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #30 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> align=right>0,5 vAlign=top width=101>
>
> style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #50 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> align=right>0,295 vAlign=top width=101>
>
> style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #200 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> align=right>0,075 We in the metrified world are used to a
> standard 'grading' from a soils lab having the following sieves: 4.75
2.41
> 1.2 600 microns 300 150 75 Pan In the interests of replicability, I
wonder
> if Dean could post the grading of what worked best in the above sizes?
Or
> perhaps gives us a best-fit from a curve? Than
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

From tombreed at attbi.com Mon Aug 12 05:08:52 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: NOT Re: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
Message-ID: <006601c24201$89503210$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Peter:

PS. While we are suggesting new protocols, I suggest that you and all (and
me occasionally) pay more attention to the SUBJECT line before hitting the
SEND button.

Tom Reed

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
> To: <Stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 8:38 PM
> Subject: Re: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
>
>
> >
> >
> > Folks -- this is called a "Bloatware" message.
> >
> > Read below to see what a bloatware message looks like in plain text
> ASCII --
> >
> > Understand that these "style" messages are not read by people that
follow
> > net-etiquette for mail lists -- that being all postings should be in
plain
> > ASCII text only!!
> >
> > No way you can catch a virus --
> >
> > But especially important -- very small and compact for downloading.
> >
> > Which is still important to us living in 3rd world.
> >
> > Information -- not bells and whistles -- please!!
> >
> > Or just become a MS perfect -- wrapped in flag -- US mail list -- only!!
> >
> > What is it with people??
> >
> > Did not a series of postings on using bloatware -- it's adverse
effects --
> > just occur on this list??
> >
> > How much education is required to hit the "standard text only" when
> > replying button found on even bloatware Email programs??
> >
> > The following message is just about totally unreadable -- is 14 kb in
> size.
> >
> > Apparently -- it's only function is to say:
> >
> > "Thanks Roberto"
> >
> > Only in America???
> >
> > What kind of message in regards to a serious seeker of biomass
combustion
> > "efficiencies" does this present??
> >
> > The message is these people play games -- they are not serious --
> >
> > Their time has come -- and now it is gone. They are "lost".
> >
> > And not even the courtesy to post in plain text only --
> >
> > Peter / Belize
> >
> >
> >
> > Return-Path: <stoves-return-5408-snkm=btl.net@crest.org>
> > Mailing-List: contact stoves-help@crest.org; run by ezmlm
> > X-No-Archive: yes
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > Delivered-To: mailing list stoves@crest.org
> > Reply-To: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> > From: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> > To: "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>
> > References: <002001c240f6$242174a0$bb1e6c0c@default>
> > <008a01c240b6$4df4ce70$0100a8c0@pentium>
> > Subject: Re: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
> > Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:52:52 +0200
> > Organization: New Dawn Engineering
> > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
> >
> > Thanks Roberto cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
> > vAlign=top width=101>
> >
> > style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> > FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> > mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Sieve Size
> > "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
> >
> > style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> > FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> > mso-ansi-language: EN-US">US Std. vAlign=bottom noWrap
> > width=83>
> >
> > Metric
> >
> > mm. vAlign=top width=101>
> >
> > style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> > FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> > mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> 3/8" vAlign=bottom noWrap
width=83>
> > align=right>9,52 vAlign=top width=101>
> >
> > style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> > FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> > mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #4 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> > align=right>4,75 vAlign=top width=101>
> >
> > style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> > FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> > mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #8 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> > align=right>2,41 vAlign=top width=101>
> >
> > style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> > FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> > mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #16 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> > align=right>1,00 vAlign=top width=101>
> >
> > style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> > FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> > mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #30 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> > align=right>0,5 vAlign=top width=101>
> >
> > style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> > FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> > mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #50 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> > align=right>0,295 vAlign=top width=101>
> >
> > style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LAYOUT-GRID-MODE: line; COLOR: black;
> > FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
> > mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> #200 vAlign=bottom noWrap width=83>
> > align=right>0,075 We in the metrified world are used to a
> > standard 'grading' from a soils lab having the following sieves: 4.75
> 2.41
> > 1.2 600 microns 300 150 75 Pan In the interests of replicability, I
> wonder
> > if Dean could post the grading of what worked best in the above sizes?
> Or
> > perhaps gives us a best-fit from a curve? Than
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> > >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > >
> > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> > >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
> >
> >
>

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Aug 12 07:03:25 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Another Approach to Homemade Refractory Material
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020811213646.0096eaf0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <20020812140407.GA7086@cybershamanix.com>

On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 07:06:22AM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
> Dear Peter:
>
> Message received and I've changed preferences to Plain Text Only. Should be
> PTO for communications with STOVES, or mabe just Peter S, because no one but
> you has made this complaint. Might be easier for you to change than
> everybody else.
>

Tom;
I think if you check the archives there's been a number of requests to stop
the html messages, including asking the list operators to block html. It's not a
matter of Peter S. changing -- it's a matter of the html wasting tons of
bandwidth and archive space, something that seriously causes a problem for those
on slow modem connections, and also because the html messages can easily spread
viruses, something I'd think you would be very concerned about.
As far as "Might be easier for you to change than everybody else." you might
take a closer look at list traffic -- there's only a few people sending html
messages generally.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From tombreed at attbi.com Mon Aug 12 07:18:18 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: [ethos] Fw: Pumice
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMEIICAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <007c01c24213$a1036000$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Ron and All:

Since Ron left my lab, I have remembered that I
bought the building block size ceramic material in Franfurt at their equivalent
(or better?) of Home Depot. It is a simple cement- like block and I am
writing to get more particulars. It was 5 cm by 25 cm by 50 cm
block approximately. Cost ~< 2 Euros retail. It appears to
be composed of mm size round ceramic spheres agglomerated together, but the
pores are certainly partly open at least because it eventually sinks in
water.

~~~~~~~~

I decided to use it as a "fire extinguisher" in the
inverted downdraft stove and I cut out a disk 10 cm by 1 cm thick. Denver
dry it weighed 51 g (SG = 0.65, so it floats). I then saturated it with
water and it weighed 68 g.

I put it in the bottom of the WoodGas CampStove
with chips on top, expecting that when the charge had burned down to all
charcoal, the heat would vaporize the water and put out the fire. It
seemed to work in the field, but I'll be testing it in the lab.

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Ron
Larson
To: <A title=dstill@epud.net
href="mailto:dstill@epud.net">Dean Still ; <A title=Stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:Stoves@crest.org">Stoves
Cc: <A title=robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar ; <A
title=owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu
href="mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu">owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu ;
Tom Reed

Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:26
PM
Subject: RE: [ethos] Fw: Pumice

Dean:

 It looks like good advances are
being made by the Ethos partners in the lightweight, tough insulator
business. I like all that I hear.

 This is to raise a question of
another different approach that I know nothing about - but like the product
(tentatively). This was seen at Tom Reed's house a few days ago. A
very tough looking, gray, hard, probably ceramic product, with thin webs
separating air cavities that were very regular and of about 1 mm dimension (a
guess from memory). Looked like it could be sawed with a hacksaw blade
(but we didn't try.)

 This floated about half way
(specific gravity of about 0.5), and didn't appear to take up a lot of water
(well sealed pores). Tom had picked it up in Germany and did not
remember particulars. Probably expensive - but was the nicest looking
(high temperature, I think) insulator I have seen (in terms of
ruggedness). This is in stark comparison to the very expensive "chalky,
soft" kiln bricks used by my wife and other potters, which have excellent
thermal propeties , but not very good mechanical properties.


 Anyone (probably in Europe) able
to give an idea how this product might have been manufactured? Any
chance for a locally manufactured approach? What
costs?

Ron

-----Original Message-----From:
owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu [<A
href="mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu">mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu]
 On Behalf Of Dean
StillSent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:07 PMTo:
robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar; ethosSubject: [ethos] Fw:
Pumice
Dear Roberto,

Although the pumice looks to be all of one size, it
probably will sift into different sizes when you use the screens. We are not
sure what is the best clay to add to the pumice, but Ken is doing
experiments right now to find out...The 10% mixture that was used in the
bricks we have was: 2 parts regular clay that melts at a lower temperature,
1 part green clay that melts at a very high temperature and 1 part cement to
make it dry hard. If you do experiments talking with Ken could be very
useful: goyen@efn.org

I'm hoping that all of us studying this
technique can invent bricks or tiles that make up the combustion chamber.
It's great that there is a lot of pumice where you want to work! I'm sure
that we can figure out how to combine it with clay to make insulative
combustion chambers!! Once we have good combustion chambers the rest of the
stove is easy to create...

Best,

Dean
From: Roberto Escardó <<A
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar>To:
Damon Ogle <<A
href="mailto:monogle@oregoncoast.com">monogle@oregoncoast.com>; Dean
Still <<A
href="mailto:dstill@epud.net">dstill@epud.net>Date:
Saturday, August 10, 2002 2:46 PMSubject:
Pumice

Damon:
In your paper(Dean sent it
to me) you say:
. Pumice
particles are not all of the same density and the bricks we made ended up
being heavier than we wanted.
We have here a pumice that is very
ligth (I guess density is 0.4 kg/cc but I could not measure it exactly) and
homogeneous, but the bigger particules are below 5 mm. (IE #4)
According to your experience is this a problem?
(In the area we will be working there
are trillion of tonnes of pumice, in fact anywhere in the valleys you
find layers 2 to 5 meters high under the topsoil and also in river and lakes
shores. I just got one sac for trials, but I will be in the zone next
month and I can try to find a bigger partles. Anyway we can arrive at the
exact mis, material is almost free)
Thanks for your excelent
work
Roberto Escardó

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Mon Aug 12 10:07:32 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Roberto_Escard=F3?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: ABC: Asian Brown Cloud
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEJGCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <00d201c2422b$8ea77000$0100a8c0@pentium>

I agree with Ron that the study conclusions is a very important for we,
stovers.

I was, just by hazard, following the subject after a few months. A reference
page for the study is:
http://www-c4.ucsd.edu/ProjectABC/

UNEP will present the the report today in London. Press release at:
http://www.unep.org/Documents/Default.asp?DocumentID=259&ArticleID=3103

An article published today in an Argentine newspaper (La Nación, it is an AP
note signed by Jill Lawless) said:
"Klaus Toepfer, Executive Director of the Environmental Program of the UN,
said that scientists and political leaders should avoid to reach to
premature conclusions, but they should begin to try to counteract the
contamination by means of the production of more efficient kitchens in
developing countries, and taking advantage of the solar energy and other
clean sources of energy" (Sorry for the english, it is my PC translator
unedited translation from spanish)

Regards.

Roberto Escardo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
>
EXCERPT:
> My view still is that the WSSD is not paying enough attention to stoves as
> a major issue - and this news report is the best support of that position
I
> have seen.
>
> Ron
>
> From: Alex English [mailto:english@kingston.net]
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 4:54 AM
> To: Ron Larson
> Subject: CNN Headline: Pollution from Stoves
>
>
> Ronal,
> The stovers will surely be interested to see this article referencing
recent
> scientific work on health and climate change due to the "brown cloud" over
> the
> Indian sub-continent.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/08/12/asia.haze/index.html
>
> Alex
> Alex English
> 399 Church St
> Enterprise Ontario
> Canada K0K 1Z0
>
>
>
> -
>

From snkm at btl.net Mon Aug 12 10:13:10 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Good Stove top priority to save the world!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020813000621.008fc810@wgs1.btl.net>

High-Lighting:

"It is described as a "dynamic soup" of vehicle and industrial pollutants,
carbon monoxide, and minute soot particles or fly ash from the regular
burning of forests and wood used for cooking in millions of rural homes.

The latest $40m research, commissioned by the UN from more than 200
scientists working in several countries, suggests that at its seasonal
peak, usually in January, the soot in the cloud bounces back sunlight into
the upper atmosphere, and prevents evaporation from the sea, leading to
less rainfall."

So yes -- the better cooking stove for 3rd world is reaching great
priorities -- and the industrialized nations -- if they were more action
than talk -- should be seriously considering distribution of a finer stove
to 3rd world at prices to low to refuse -- starting with "free".

After all -- we all live aboard this same boat --

So we need more support of the technology promoted by people such as on
this list??

Peter/Belize

*************

Extracted from:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/globalwarming/story/0,7369,773143,00.html

You thought it was wet? Wait until the Asian brown cloud hits town

Extreme weather set to worsen through pollution and El Nino

John Vidal
Monday August 12, 2002
The Guardian

The first six months of 2002 have been the northern hemisphere's warmest in
recorded history, Britain has had one of the wettest summers ever, and the
Pacific ocean is yet again building up to another season of climatic
trouble making - the dreaded El Nino.

But if anyone thought that the weather was increasingly unpredictable and
extreme, they may have seen nothing yet.

Yesterday a team of international climatologists led by Professor Paul
Grutzen, whose work on the ozone hole won him the 1995 Nobel science prize,
said that they had identified the "Asian brown cloud". This 10 million
square mile, three kilometre thick, fluctuating haze of man-made pollutants
is now spreading across the whole Asian continent and blocking out up to
15% of the sunlight.

Worryingly for other continents, it can also be carried in the upper
atmosphere halfway round the world in less than a week, possibly making the
weather in Britain even more unpredictable and severe.

With man's burning of fossil fuels believed to be increasingly affecting
climate globally, the brown cloud adds further complexity to scientists'
attempts to understand weather on a regional level. Yesterday Professor V.
Ramanathan of the US Scripps institution of oceanography, who has
researched the phenomenon for five years, said that it was not just an
Asian problem.

"We used to think that the human impact on climate was just global warming.
Now we know it is more complex. The brown cloud shows that man's activities
are making climate more unpredictable everywhere. Greenhouse gases like
carbon dioxide are distributed uniformly, but the particulates in the brown
cloud add to unpredictability worldwide."

The cloud is thought to have been first identified in the 1980s by US
pilots working from Diego Garcia airforce base in the Indian Ocean. But in
recent years it has been spotted by satellites and research ships to be
spreading as far as China in the north and the Arabian sea in the west. It
is described as a "dynamic soup" of vehicle and industrial pollutants,
carbon monoxide, and minute soot particles or fly ash from the regular
burning of forests and wood used for cooking in millions of rural homes.

This, in turn, is thought to be affecting the monsoon rains which determine
agriculture, and adversely affecting the health and livelihoods of up to
three billion people throughout Asia.

Although the academics were yesterday reluctant to attribute individual
weather phenomena to the cloud, it is clear the Asian climate has been
disrupted in the past decade with a series of unseasonal and erratic rains,
severe droughts, and fierce storms in Bangladesh, India, Vietnam, Cambodia,
China and elsewhere. This year the monsoons in many parts of India and
south east Asia have either not arrived or have been particularly severe.

Scientists believe that there are many interconnections between global
warming and the haze cloud, but say that more research is needed to
understand how the phenomena exacerbate each other. "Some places will see
more drying, others more rainfall. Greenhouse gases and aerosols may be
acting in the same direction or may be opposing each other", said Professor
Ramanathan.

"It is now undisputed that air pollutants and their chemical products can
be transported over many thousands of kilometres. We urgently need data on
the sources of the pollution, especially for China and India since they are
contributing the bulk of the emissions", said the UN report on the cloud
published yesterday. But scientists acknowledge that the Asian pollution is
unprecedented and will worsen as population increases and countries like
China and India rapidly industrialise. They have also identified lesser
pollution clouds over parts of Africa, Latin America, and the
Mediterranean, which may be contributing to unpredictable weather around
the globe.

"The Asian cloud is man-made so it can be eliminated", said Klaus Toepfer,
head of the UN environment programme, yesterday. "To do so needs better
burning technologies and we need to have cleaner traffic, and sustainable
energy".

As if that were not enough, US scientists have announced the official
return of El Nino, a periodic slight warming of the Pacific ocean, which
triggers a chain reaction of changes around the globe and has been observed
building for three months. Several countries are being warned to expect
droughts and floods.

Four years ago, El Nino caused thousands of deaths and serious malnutrition
across Latin America, southern Africa and the Pacific region. Some 230
million lost their homes in China, there were serious delays to the monsoon
in India, and severe flooding in Bangladesh. This year's El Nino is
expected to be less powerful, though it will still have the ability to
wreak havoc. Australia last week said it had become its first victim, with
an existing drought worsened. Other scientists have warned that heavily
populated south east Asia may soon feel the effects of El Nino. "Countries
north of Australia should be particularly concerned", said Ian Smith,
principal research scientist for Australia's atmospheric research group. In
the northern part of the globe, average temperatures fit the broad
predictions by the consensus of climatologists who study global warming.
The first half of 2002 was the warmest in 143 years, and, globally, the
January to June period was the second warmest on record. Only 1998 had a
warmer first half of the year, because of the influence of El Nino.
Scientists say we should expect increasing climatic chaos with more floods,
unexpected droughts and snap heatwaves.

"Warmer weather fuels natural disasters", said Pier Vellinga, a
climatologist at Amsterdam University. "Few places in the world will be
spared from climatic disruptions. We can say with reasonable confidence
that human-induced climate change is now affecting the frequency and
intensity of extreme weather events."

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Aug 12 18:55:06 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Forwarding Crispin on CNN Headline: Pollution from Stoves
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIAEKCCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers: I hope Crispin (in Swaziland) won't mind my forwarding a very
thoughtful letter he wrote on the subject of the "Asian Haze" article that
Alex English (and then I) forwarded this AM. I find that Crispin has spoken
for me.

I also today found a short news article in our Denver paper. Given our
local ability to ignore world news, this tells me that this story was pretty
widely circulated.

Thanks also to Roberto Escardó [robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar, and Peter
Singfield Peter Singfield [snkm@btl.net], respectively in Argentina and
Belize for their reporting on what they have been following. Tami sent a a
note today saying she would be back in about a week to tell us more on her
own involvement in this study

I also received a notice from a WSSD newsletter group giving the full URL
for the study which I couldn't find earlier today at the UNEP site:
http://www.rrcap.unep.org/abc/impactstudy/
I haven't read it yet, but it seems to go back to the ucsd web site given by
Roberto.
, so it might be there also (but I couldn't find it earlier today - in full)

Again, this is the first chance I have seen to say to the WSSD that they
have been missing the boat on the importance of stoves. - As Crispin
records below. Maybe someone can get the assembled world leaders (and their
environmental and development experts) to ask how they can now act on this
new information!

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Crispin [mailto:crispin@newdawn.sz]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 9:48 AM
To: Ron Larson
Subject: On the side: Re: FW from Alex English: CNN Headline: Pollution
from Stoves

Dear Ron

Here is what I wrote today to the Baha'i Environment discussion group which
sent me the whole article:

Regards
Crispin

+++++++++++++
Dear Friends

I quote the following from the end of the report "Millions dies from
pollution and a toxic cloud in Asia":

>A spokeswoman for environmental group Friends
>of the Earth (news - web sites) said urgent action
>was needed.
>
>"Actions must include phasing out fossil fuels and
>replacing them with clean, green, renewable energy
>and tough laws to protect the world's forests," she
>said. "

I am a small time wood stove manufacturer and member of an internet
discussion group that deals with the development of fuel efficient and very
clean-burning wood stoves so I have some knowledge of how clean, renewable,
energy sources like wood and combustible agricultural wastes can be. I also
hold the unofficial world record for boiling a litre of water, set this year
with our Basintuthu Stove which is a very efficient wood and waste burning
device.

I am distressed that when, as in the quote cited above, the mention of
'pollution' is made and solution offered, the thing on offer is exactly what
has been the root of much contentious discussion as we prepare Swaziland's
National Energy Policy. The European consultants are very upset that people
here burn wood for fuel and those advising the people drafting the National
Forestry Policy have basically banned the cutting of 'local' trees for sale
as firewood and the National Environmental policy frowns on the planting of
non-indigenous species. South Africa is even embarking on a plant to uproot
ALL non-native species where possible without regards for the needs of the
nearby populations who utterly depend on them for energy. They are making
no effort to make this vast 'unwanted' resource available to those who
presently burn coal in their homes.

This is the deal offered by European consultants to Swaziland (their Big
Vision)

- everyone will stop cutting trees and burning them for cooking and space
heating
- everyone will switch to 'transitional fuels' such as paraffin and Handigas
(propane)
- everyone will eventually get grid electricity through national subsidies
and extension of the national grid
- everyone will, later, convert to 'renewable energy technologies' which
will be sold to us by European companies who have the financial muscle to
develop and produce them in quantity, thus rendering the grateful Swazis
energy self-sufficient with renewables (at a price).

The real situation is:

- 77% of the population already uses wood fuel as their primary energy
source. Wood is a fully renewable resource. We recognize that in other
places it is not harvested sustainably due to a number of factors including
increased population and ignorance. However, here, it is already available
free throughout the country and with only minor interventions could be
secured in plentiful supply for everyone who wanted it, sustainably. It is
a wood surplus country that presently burns a lot simply to get rid of it.
This resource did not always exist. Much of the wood resources are planted
(managed) forests.
- all the 'transitional fuels' on offer are imported fossil fuels that have
to be purchased with foreign exchange and distributed at great expense over
the roads network at additional fossil fuel cost. Dissipating ignorance
about sustainability and planting more trees is far cheaper than raising
foreign exchange to buy imported fuels.
- the electricity is 80% purchased from outside the country and is generated
by burning coal in South Africa. The pollution from this is damaging our
trees, notably the conifers on the highveldt.
- the 'renewable energy' technologies that will be offered by European
companies concentrate on solar heating, PV systems and wind power for
supplying electric energy. The possibility of us producing PV or wind
systems from local resources is remote.
- if even a small proportion of the funds presently being spent on
increasing our fossil fuel energy dependencies (security of supply depots,
grid subsidies, gasfuel distribution networks) were spent on safeguarding
the supply and extending the use of biomass energy, we might be able remain
at our present 75% renewable energy level well into the future.

It is very unfortunate that shrill, even if well-intentioned, people have
succeeded in creating the impression that all biomass energy consumption is
'unsustainable' and 'polluting' and 'increases CO2 in the atmosphere' and is
'backward' and 'primitive' and 'requiring urgent action' and 'tough laws' to
prevent it. Equally disturbing is the trend to decry all forest cutting as
'creating deserts' and 'causing droughts' by 'interfering with the water
cycle'. It is nothing less than bizarre to hear that the spread of
'unwanted' trees is also 'creating deserts', 'using all the water' and
'causing droughts' by 'interfering with the water cycle'. It is as if trees
have no value or potential uses, and further, that they cause droughts,
prevent them, cause desertification and prevent it, and are, but might not
be, part of the natural water cycle.

Before concluding that everyone must follow the development path taken by
Western and now many Eastern countries, please keep in mind that there are
countries that have bothered to create huge renewable energy resources in
the form of biomass. Also remember that such biomass resources are, in the
long term, carbon-dioxide neutral with respect to the atmosphere. Biomass
is a form of renewable energy that can be burned very efficiently for many
purposes including cooking, heating, mechanical traction, electricity
generation and gas lighting. It is even a potential input for electric fuel
cells, creating electricity without fire. Countries with large and
expanding (underutilized?) forests include Russia, Canada, the USA and
Moçambique.

Recent developments in very clean-burning wood-gas stoves show the promise
of attracting urban people away from imported fossil fuels back to clean,
renewable, locally grown biomass power. If these stoves can be
commercialized at low cost, there is a real possibilty that the
charcoal-burning townships in Africa can be convinced to switch to cheaper
biomass fired stoves, an action that, if successful, will effectively triple
East Africa's available woodfuel resources without even planting a single
tree.

As we gather in Johannesburg from the four corners of the earth to discuss
the sustinable development of our common earthly home, let us recognize that
some of the best examples of sustainable living and most advanced
technological thinking can come from what are frequently thought of as
'backward' countries. Who is 'behind' whom developmentally depends on where
you are going. When everyone decides to turn around on this question of
leading a sustainable life, you may be surprised to find out who is leading
the way.

Sustainably yours,
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
Executive Member
Renewable Energy Association of Swaziland
reaswa@newdawn.sz

From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Aug 14 16:19:43 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: FW: ecostove on BBC (forwarding Rogerio)
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMELECAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:
Rogerio is below alerting us to the possibility that we can see a BBC
documentary - at least partly on stoves - this coming Saturday evening and
Sunday morning.

I have looked at our local public TV scheduling and find nothing that
sounds similar. Anyone able to help me?

Rogerio: I did forward the earlier message, but also got a return message
aboutnot being able to deliver. Hope this one works and your problems have
been solved.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Rogerio Miranda [mailto:rmiranda@entelnet.bo]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 10:55 AM
To: stuart@treeswaterpeople.org; dstill@epud.net; ronallarson@qwest.net
Subject: ecostove on BBC

Hi: my Email was down the past 2 days, so I wasn't sure you guys received
this message. I just confirmed that the documentary will be replay again
this saturday at 18:30 hs GMT and sunday 07:30 GMT. I believe GMT is 4
hours ahead of US eastern time.

rogerio

............................
from monday nite:

Hi Stuart, Ron and Dean: I was surprise tonite when I saw myself on BBC
World news (Earth Report). I was expecting some notice from the TVE(the
documentary agency), but it seems that they forgot to tell me. Anyway, if
you have a chance to see BBC Earth report today, perhaps they will replay
the documentary. It is a bout children exposed to hazard
environment conditions, and the last part include Ecostove. I will try to
get hold of a copy and share with you. Good timing, when every news agency
is reporting about the brown cloud over South Asia.

Go rocket stove.

Rogerio

From rmiranda at entelnet.bo Wed Aug 14 16:25:01 2002
From: rmiranda at entelnet.bo (Rogerio Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: NEW YORK TIMES, PREVENTION; Healthy Household Improvement
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20020814090025.00cff840@entelnet.bo>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020814/ff94f87a/attachment.html
From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Wed Aug 14 16:40:47 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Good Stove top priority to save the world!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020813000621.008fc810@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGCEPMCFAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

Yep $40m would buy a whole lotta stoves!!

But govt money is always only available for "feasibility studies" and
"desktop research" never actually implementing a valid solution ;-)
Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 6:08
To: Stoves@crest.org
Subject: Good Stove top priority to save the world!

High-Lighting:

After all -- we all live aboard this same boat --

So we need more support of the technology promoted by people such as on
this list??

Peter/Belize

*************

Extracted from:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/globalwarming/story/0,7369,773143,00.html

You thought it was wet? Wait until the Asian brown cloud hits town

Extreme weather set to worsen through pollution and El Nino

John Vidal
Monday August 12, 2002
The Guardian

But if anyone thought that the weather was increasingly unpredictable and
extreme, they may have seen nothing yet.

Worryingly for other continents, it can also be carried in the upper
atmosphere halfway round the world in less than a week, possibly making the
weather in Britain even more unpredictable and severe.

This, in turn, is thought to be affecting the monsoon rains which determine
agriculture, and adversely affecting the health and livelihoods of up to
three billion people throughout Asia.

From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Aug 14 16:41:44 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Forwarding message from Rogerio
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIEKGCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers - This has two purposes
1. to let you all know of Rogerio's recognition in Bolivia.
2. To tel Rogerio know that I got a returned no-address reply when I
attempted to congratulate him.

Anyone else see this BBC show? It probably had passed when I heard about it
tonight.

Ron

Rogerio said:

I was surprised tonite when I saw myself on BBC
World news (Earth Report). I was expecting some notice from the TVE(the
documentary agency), but it seems that they forgot to tell me. Anyway, if
you have a chance to see BBC Earth report today, perhaps they will replay
the documentary. It is about children exposed to hazard
environment conditions, and the last part include Ecostove. I will try to
get hold of a copy and share with you. Good timing, when every news agency
is reporting about the brown cloud over South Asia.

Go rocket stove.

Rogerio

From tombreed at attbi.com Wed Aug 14 16:49:27 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Floating cement refractory
Message-ID: <008901c242bf$1b468b70$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Ron and All: This is the message I meant
to send out. I put it in my OUTBOX to make further changes, but when I
came back this morning it had been sent. Please destroy partial note sent
yesterday.

~~~~~~~~~
Ron mentioned seeing in my lab last week a "cement
block" that floated in water and looked like a good light weight refractory that
might be useful for world stoves.

Since Ron left my lab, I have remembered that I
bought the building block size ceramic material in Frankfurt at the
German equivalent (or better?) of Home Depot. It had been used in
Germany to make an experimental absorbent. I would like to find out more
about it and am writing to Axel Weber who introduced me to it and bought me
one.

It is a simple cement-like block and I am writing
to my host, Axel Weber, get more particulars. It was white and
approximately 5 cm by 25 cm by 50 cm block. Cost ~< 2 Euros
retail. It appears to be composed of 1 mm size round hollow ceramic
spheres agglomerated together, possibly with cement. The pores are also
certainly partly open because it eventually sinks in water. Axel:
Anything more you can find would be appreciated. Do they sell a mortar of
the same material?


~~~~~~~~

It seems to be an excellent refractory
cement. I held a propane flame on one side of the 1.3 cm disk and my
finger on the other. I felt the heat only after ~1 1/2 minutes.

I decided to try it for an automatic "fire
extinguisher" in the bottom inverted downdraft stove to extinguish the cooking
fire when all has been converted to charcoal. I cut out a disk 10 cm by
1.3 cm thick. It cut easily with a hack saw and file. In our
typical "Denver dry" 10% humidity climate, it weighed 52.5 g (SG = 0.51, so
it floats high). I then saturated it with water and it weighed 68.75 g and
absorbed 16.5 g of water. (This could be a drawback for refractory use.)

I put it in the bottom of the WoodGas CampStove
with chips on top, expecting that when the charge had burned down to all
charcoal, the heat would vaporize the water and put out the fire. It
seemed to work in the field, but I'll be testing it in the lab.

~~~~~~~~~
We are exploring the world for low cost, light
weight refractories and this seems to be a candidate. Maybe the European
"Home Depot" type store also sells it loose for casting? Please check
Alex.

Yours
truly,
TOM
REED
BEF STOVEWORKS

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Ron
Larson
To: <A title=dstill@epud.net
href="mailto:dstill@epud.net">Dean Still ; <A title=Stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:Stoves@crest.org">Stoves
Cc: <A title=robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar ; <A
title=owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu
href="mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu">owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu ;
Tom Reed

Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:26
PM
Subject: RE: [ethos] Fw: Pumice

Dean:

 It looks like good advances are
being made by the Ethos partners in the lightweight, tough insulator
business. I like all that I hear.

 This is to raise a question of
another different approach that I know nothing about - but like the product
(tentatively). This was seen at Tom Reed's house a few days ago. A
very tough looking, gray, hard, probably ceramic product, with thin webs
separating air cavities that were very regular and of about 1 mm dimension (a
guess from memory). Looked like it could be sawed with a hacksaw blade
(but we didn't try.)

 This floated about half way
(specific gravity of about 0.5), and didn't appear to take up a lot of water
(well sealed pores). Tom had picked it up in Germany and did not
remember particulars. Probably expensive - but was the nicest looking
(high temperature, I think) insulator I have seen (in terms of
ruggedness). This is in stark comparison to the very expensive "chalky,
soft" kiln bricks used by my wife and other potters, which have excellent
thermal propeties , but not very good mechanical properties.


 Anyone (probably in Europe) able
to give an idea how this product might have been manufactured? Any
chance for a locally manufactured approach? What
costs?

Ron

-----Original Message-----From:
owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu [<A
href="mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu">mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu]
 On Behalf Of Dean
StillSent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:07 PMTo:
robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar; ethosSubject: [ethos] Fw:
Pumice
Dear Roberto,

Although the pumice looks to be all of one size, it
probably will sift into different sizes when you use the screens. We are not
sure what is the best clay to add to the pumice, but Ken is doing
experiments right now to find out...The 10% mixture that was used in the
bricks we have was: 2 parts regular clay that melts at a lower temperature,
1 part green clay that melts at a very high temperature and 1 part cement to
make it dry hard. If you do experiments talking with Ken could be very
useful: goyen@efn.org

I'm hoping that all of us studying this
technique can invent bricks or tiles that make up the combustion chamber.
It's great that there is a lot of pumice where you want to work! I'm sure
that we can figure out how to combine it with clay to make insulative
combustion chambers!! Once we have good combustion chambers the rest of the
stove is easy to create...

Best,

Dean
From: Roberto Escardó <<A
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar>To:
Damon Ogle <<A
href="mailto:monogle@oregoncoast.com">monogle@oregoncoast.com>; Dean
Still <<A
href="mailto:dstill@epud.net">dstill@epud.net>Date:
Saturday, August 10, 2002 2:46 PMSubject:
Pumice

Damon:
In your paper(Dean sent it
to me) you say:
. Pumice
particles are not all of the same density and the bricks we made ended up
being heavier than we wanted.
We have here a pumice that is very
ligth (I guess density is 0.4 kg/cc but I could not measure it exactly) and
homogeneous, but the bigger particules are below 5 mm. (IE #4)
According to your experience is this a problem?
(In the area we will be working there
are trillion of tonnes of pumice, in fact anywhere in the valleys you
find layers 2 to 5 meters high under the topsoil and also in river and lakes
shores. I just got one sac for trials, but I will be in the zone next
month and I can try to find a bigger partles. Anyway we can arrive at the
exact mis, material is almost free)
Thanks for your excelent
work
Roberto Escardó

From tombreed at attbi.com Wed Aug 14 16:50:18 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Stove and Gasifier insulation optimization
In-Reply-To: <002701c240a1$47a80060$b31e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <00ad01c24393$ea0cdc00$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Dean and all:

Our words betray us so often. In thermal
processes the word "insulation" implies low thermal conductivity. To
achieve this you need separate low density particles (pumice, perlite,
vermiculite) or strands (Kaowool and other spun mullite fibers). The
separate particles also give LOW DENSITY and LOW HEAT CAPACITY, both desirable
in our devices.

The word "ceramic" implies hard materials that can
withstand mechanical assaults to varying degrees, but typically have high
thermal conductivity and heat capacity and so are not appropriate for
stoves. Clay and cement are moderately good heat
conductors. (but may be very brittle and crack under
thermal stress).

With these conflicting requirements, it is not
surprising that the stove and gasifier communities are having trouble coming up
with low cost insulations. We need to combine

First, LOW THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY. Conferred by
open spaces between particles or fibers or reflective insulation (used in my
WoodGas CampStoves).

Secondly, MECHANICAL INTEGRETY.

Thirdly, CHEAP

Fourthly, EASY TO FABRICATE (cast, pour, vacuum
form, ....)

How do we combine these disparate
requirements?

Commercial ovens typically use a hard facing of
brick, then Kaowool insulation outside that, then steel outside that. A
little heavy for stoves and small gasifiers.

The riser sleeves have ideal insulating properties,
but once fired, low mechanical integrety. This can be fixed with
"rigidizer", a silica sol that is sprayed on the inner surface to give a skim
coat with hardness. (It is incredibly expensive.) I have used

"water glass" (cheap) with moderately good results,
but it lowers the melting point badly. Maybe an acid treatment afterwards would
take out the soda.

I hope Dean will get bags of pumice, perlite and
vermiculite and loose Kaowool, and bind test pieces with clay, cement or
refractory clays and cements in all proportions to find the "ideal" stove
cement.

I'm glad to see the stove people getting serious
about finding a GOOD INSULATION.

Yours
truly,
TOM
REED
BEF STOVEWORKS
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Dean Still
To: <A title=robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar ; <A
title=ethos@vrac.iastate.edu href="mailto:ethos@vrac.iastate.edu">ethos

Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:07
PM
Subject: [ethos] Fw: Pumice

Dear Roberto,

Although the pumice looks to be all of one size, it probably
will sift into different sizes when you use the screens. We are not sure what
is the best clay to add to the pumice, but Ken is doing experiments right now
to find out...The 10% mixture that was used in the bricks we have was: 2 parts
regular clay that melts at a lower temperature, 1 part green clay that melts
at a very high temperature and 1 part cement to make it dry hard. If you do
experiments talking with Ken could be very useful: <A
href="mailto:goyen@efn.org">goyen@efn.org

I'm hoping that all of us studying this technique
can invent bricks or tiles that make up the combustion chamber. It's great
that there is a lot of pumice where you want to work! I'm sure that we can
figure out how to combine it with clay to make insulative combustion
chambers!! Once we have good combustion chambers the rest of the stove is easy
to create...

Best,

Dean
From: Roberto Escardó <<A
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar>To:
Damon Ogle <<A
href="mailto:monogle@oregoncoast.com">monogle@oregoncoast.com>; Dean
Still <dstill@epud.net>Date:
Saturday, August 10, 2002 2:46 PMSubject:
Pumice

Damon:
In your paper(Dean sent it to
me) you say:
. Pumice
particles are not all of the same density and the bricks we made ended up
being heavier than we wanted.
We have here a pumice that is very ligth
(I guess density is 0.4 kg/cc but I could not measure it exactly) and
homogeneous, but the bigger particules are below 5 mm. (IE #4) According
to your experience is this a problem?
(In the area we will be working there
are trillion of tonnes of pumice, in fact anywhere in the valleys you
find layers 2 to 5 meters high under the topsoil and also in river and lakes
shores. I just got one sac for trials, but I will be in the zone next
month and I can try to find a bigger partles. Anyway we can arrive at the
exact mis, material is almost free)
Thanks for your excelent
work
Roberto Escardó

From dstill at epud.net Wed Aug 14 17:10:08 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Cleaning up clouds
Message-ID: <001e01c2435b$16a6a4a0$b81e6c0c@default>

Dear Friends,

The news that clouds of pollution are killing folks is obvious to anyone
traveling to places like Mexico City, Los Angeles, etc. but it's so sad to
hear that country sized clouds of pollution are a permanent feature of even
rural areas. That burning biomass considerably adds to the problem
reinforces the importance of our work here, doesn't it? So few people are
studying how to burn biomass cleanly. This List is doing work that could
improve the quality of life for a large segment of humanity.

It so happens that my next stove class at Aprovecho is concentrating on
clean burning and I had planned to test six approaches to improving
emissions that seem promising. We're going to build prototypes that utilize
each idea, testing one approach a day, and try to see how far we can travel
in a week. We'll report on that here.

I thought that I'd share my list here to elicit help from others who have
more experience in other approaches, and perhaps to direct attention to the
serious need for solving a real world dillemma. Hopefully, we can include
your ideas in our testing which begins the 19th of August.

I began with Larry Winiarski's ten principles of stove design which all have
seen, I suppose. If not, I'll send them to you.

Then I made some design ground rules: no batch feeding, no top feeding under
the pot, designed to use sticks of wood, no electric parts, no downfeed fuel
magazines. I may be wrong but in my limited experience folks do not take to
these features. So the stove in this design class will be side feed, sticks
pushed in as they are burnt. Have to start somewhere...

My best guesses on how to reduce emissions in these kind of cooking stoves
are:

1.) Have smoke go through coals
2.) Force smoke to scrape against surfaces above 1200F.
3.) Natural draft is used to create turbulence
4.) Preheat primary or secondary air
5.) Increase the time that fire is inside combustion chamber
6.) Keep the portion of the wood that is not burning cool

I've made three or four sketches of stoves that add each of these ideas to a
sidefeed Rocket type stove. I'm sure that the students will come up with
better prototypes and ideas...they usually do! We'll build the experimental
models, see what happens...

I'm hoping that ASAP, our CREST community of stove colleagues can present
governments with a stove so cheap, simple, rugged, and safe and likeable
that the realization of Tom Reed's dream of a billion stoves helps our
brothers and sisters in their struggle for survival, for breath...

.Best,

Dean

From tombreed at attbi.com Wed Aug 14 17:19:05 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Straw to Bricks
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMEIICAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <01a401c243b9$169305e0$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Dean, Ron and All:

I wrote about adding perlite, vermiculite, pumice
or fibrous mullite (kaowool) to light weight insulations for
stoves.

The fibers may be the most expensive part.
How about mixing the fibers with one of the other three to add mechanical
bonding to whatever the final mix is, but keep cost down. Like straw for
bricks!

TOM REED
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Ron
Larson
To: <A title=dstill@epud.net
href="mailto:dstill@epud.net">Dean Still ; <A title=Stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:Stoves@crest.org">Stoves
Cc: <A title=robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar ; <A
title=owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu
href="mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu">owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu ;
Tom Reed

Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:26
PM
Subject: RE: [ethos] Fw: Pumice

Dean:

 It looks like good advances are
being made by the Ethos partners in the lightweight, tough insulator
business. I like all that I hear.

 This is to raise a question of
another different approach that I know nothing about - but like the product
(tentatively). This was seen at Tom Reed's house a few days ago. A
very tough looking, gray, hard, probably ceramic product, with thin webs
separating air cavities that were very regular and of about 1 mm dimension (a
guess from memory). Looked like it could be sawed with a hacksaw blade
(but we didn't try.)

 This floated about half way
(specific gravity of about 0.5), and didn't appear to take up a lot of water
(well sealed pores). Tom had picked it up in Germany and did not
remember particulars. Probably expensive - but was the nicest looking
(high temperature, I think) insulator I have seen (in terms of
ruggedness). This is in stark comparison to the very expensive "chalky,
soft" kiln bricks used by my wife and other potters, which have excellent
thermal propeties , but not very good mechanical properties.


 Anyone (probably in Europe) able
to give an idea how this product might have been manufactured? Any
chance for a locally manufactured approach? What
costs?

Ron

-----Original Message-----From:
owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu [<A
href="mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu">mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu]
 On Behalf Of Dean
StillSent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:07 PMTo:
robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar; ethosSubject: [ethos] Fw:
Pumice
Dear Roberto,

Although the pumice looks to be all of one size, it
probably will sift into different sizes when you use the screens. We are not
sure what is the best clay to add to the pumice, but Ken is doing
experiments right now to find out...The 10% mixture that was used in the
bricks we have was: 2 parts regular clay that melts at a lower temperature,
1 part green clay that melts at a very high temperature and 1 part cement to
make it dry hard. If you do experiments talking with Ken could be very
useful: goyen@efn.org

I'm hoping that all of us studying this
technique can invent bricks or tiles that make up the combustion chamber.
It's great that there is a lot of pumice where you want to work! I'm sure
that we can figure out how to combine it with clay to make insulative
combustion chambers!! Once we have good combustion chambers the rest of the
stove is easy to create...

Best,

Dean
From: Roberto Escardó <<A
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar>To:
Damon Ogle <<A
href="mailto:monogle@oregoncoast.com">monogle@oregoncoast.com>; Dean
Still <<A
href="mailto:dstill@epud.net">dstill@epud.net>Date:
Saturday, August 10, 2002 2:46 PMSubject:
Pumice

Damon:
In your paper(Dean sent it
to me) you say:
. Pumice
particles are not all of the same density and the bricks we made ended up
being heavier than we wanted.
We have here a pumice that is very
ligth (I guess density is 0.4 kg/cc but I could not measure it exactly) and
homogeneous, but the bigger particules are below 5 mm. (IE #4)
According to your experience is this a problem?
(In the area we will be working there
are trillion of tonnes of pumice, in fact anywhere in the valleys you
find layers 2 to 5 meters high under the topsoil and also in river and lakes
shores. I just got one sac for trials, but I will be in the zone next
month and I can try to find a bigger partles. Anyway we can arrive at the
exact mis, material is almost free)
Thanks for your excelent
work
Roberto Escardó

From Carefreeland at aol.com Wed Aug 14 17:21:53 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Fwd: Forwarding Crispin - Tree planting issues
Message-ID: <b4.10086356.2a8b9cab@aol.com>

This didn't come through, try again.

To: ronallarson@qwest.net, crispin@newdawn.sz, stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Forwarding Crispin - Tree planting issues
From: Carefreeland@aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 06:20:55 EDT
Full-name: Carefreeland

Ron, Crispin, Stovers,
Obviously there is a lot of confusion with the idea of planting
nonnative plant species as a fuel supply, and it's impact on the soil water
budget of arid regions. This is a complex topic possibly more suited to
another list, but the impact on Biomass stove resources leads me to address
it.
The studies I have heard of, linking tree planting to less and not
more rainfall/soil moisture, seem to dwell on the planting of high water
usage plants in desert climates. There is two sides to this issue, and I'm
not sure if both are being studied.
When trees draw more soil moisture they also transpire more. Nothing
is gained or lost. Desert climates which lack significant wind day and
night, recycle much of this moisture not as rain, but as dew and fog. Another
factor is water storage. Any plant stores a significant amount of it's
moisture supply within it's tissue, including roots. Lack of excess soil
moisture does not always indicate lack of microclimate moisture availability.

In climates with drying winds, the moisture is carried away but to
where? Somewhere downwind, somebody is getting more rain, dew and fog. The
shading of the ground with any vegetation is better at conserving moisture
than no vegetation. If for no other reason just to act to collect more dew
and fog moisture. The scale of area affected has much to do with the overall
effect.
I conclude that much studying has to be done to optimize the balance
between Biomass fuel supply and degradation of native plant habitat. My
hunch is that by choosing a proper balance of mostly native derived
vegetation to gradually replace the existing plantations, both objectives can
be met. It may be the unplanned plantation system of monoculture causing
some of the concerns.
Other areas needing study with the choice of plant material include:
the local usage of water wells, the condition and depth of the topsoil, the
level of groundwater and storage of moisture within the various layers of the
earth. All of these are additional factors in the decision of what plants
will best utilize and protect the existing watershed. How large of an area is
to be affected? Is it surrounded by desert? Mountains? What is the geology?
The simple building of runoff catch ponds to raise watertables has a
tremendous impact on overall soil waterbudgets. Other methods of management
include contour plowing of farmable fields, and managing topsoil for surface
moisture storage. I hear of none of these subjects being included in these
studies. The only factor I have heard of being studied is stream flows. Just
the degradation of topsoil can affect streamflow tremendously. Drilling of
new waterwells can also have an impact. Maybe vegetation choice is only a
secondary concern.
Once again the publication of inconclusive and insufficient studies
has entire populations changing course of action without repeated small scale
trials and experiments. What course of action works in one area may not work
in another.
Why do we spend so much of our resources on solving problems after the
fact? The chance to have a major impact down the road can be as simple as the
planting of the proper tree seedlings in the right places and at the right
times.
When mankind as a whole, starts to value the resources of the
knowledgeable farmer, herdsmen, and woodsman, I predict we will spend a LOT
less resources on doctors, lawyers, and politicians. Unfortunately these
professions control the decisions to only their own benefit. The health of a
child starts before it is born, and so it is with the land.
Mother nature can provide all of the fuel we need, but only if we
listen to her first.
Happy stoving,
Daniel Dimiduk

From Carefreeland at aol.com Wed Aug 14 17:33:38 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Forwarding Crispin - Tree planting issues
Message-ID: <f2.1ffeebfb.2a8a3787@aol.com>

From tombreed at attbi.com Wed Aug 14 17:36:29 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Radiative Insulation
In-Reply-To: <002001c240f6$242174a0$bb1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <00ca01c24397$f954eb90$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Dean and All:

In my previous note I spoke of "reflective" insulation for high
temperatures. This was a major part of my old midlife career at MIT and
Union Carbide (until 1978) where I was involved in VERY high temperature
crystal growth and built a LOT of different kinds of furnaces.

Heat is transmitted by

Conduction (soldering iron)
Convection (welding torch)
Radiation (radiant heaters, but also everywhere, always down to 1 K in the
universe)

and each mechanism can be dominant in specific situations.

However, conduction is primarly set by the materials used - metals high, non
metals generally low (but diamond can be 10 X copper).

Convection is determined by velocity to the first power or less.

Radiation increases with the 4th power of T (absolute), so will always
become the dominant heat transfer mechanism at sufficiently high
temperatures.

I have a patent for a gold furnace that reaches 1100 C with 1 kW power. A
layer of 200 atoms of gold (cost $1/furnace)replaces 1/2 inch of asbestos,
AND you can see inside the furnace. It depends on the VERY high reflectance
of gold in the infra red (>99%) and the high transmission in the visible.
(That's why gold is yellow).

A number N of layers of reflective insulation will reduce the heat loss by
2^N. I have built lab furnaces that reach >2500 C with modest power and
5-10 "heat shields".

The wonderful insulating properties of Kaowool fibers and riser sleeves (MP
>1600 C) are due to "back radiation". You can heat one surface to 1200C and
keep your finger on the opposite surface 1 cm away for minutes. Outstanding
insulation.

To a lesser extent perlite, vermiculite and pumice behave similarly. (Not
such high temperature capability.)

So, while we are developing improved stove insulation, think in terms of
radiative insulation of various kinds.

Yours truly, TOM REED
BEF STOVEWORKS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>; "ethos" <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>;

Dear Friends,

"A (rock) aggregate mix is used in construction to produce a blend of
different sizes of crushed rock which can be mixed with a binder (asphalt,
cement or just plain water) to form a durable solid for road surfaces and
other structures. The basic idea is to form a mass which "locks" together
using a minimum amount of binder. Asphalt and cement are expensive compared
to crushed rock. Engineers and contractors have invested thousands of hours
and countless dollars to develop formulas for good aggregate mixes for
specific uses.
To help visualize how an aggregate mix works, one could imagine having four
piles of different size materials: (1) Walnuts (2) marbles (3) peas (4)
flour. Any single pile by itself would be loose and unstable with lots of
air voids between the pieces.
Imagine making a mix by first placing the walnuts in a form. Now add just
enough marbles to the mix to fill all the "marble size" voids between the
walnuts. Next add the right amount of peas to fill all the "pea size"
voids. Finally, add enough flour to fill any remaining air spaces in the
mix. Now it is a fairly solid mass in which each size material locks in all
the others. The mass uses a minimum amount of flour because all the voids
are already filled by larger size pieces (the marbles and peas).
New bricks:
Last month at Aprovecho we wanted to construct insulative bricks, using
perlite (extremely light) for an aggregate mix and Ken's clay formula for a
binder.
Because of my past experience in rock crushing and materials testing, I
volunteered to prepare the aggregate mix. To avoid "re-inventing the wheel"
I used a mix design, which is used by the Forest Service to make asphalt
pavement. To this mix (all rock) they would then add 5% or 6% asphalt and
roll it on a road to form "blacktop". I knew this gradation was relatively
easy to make and worked well in the real world. These gradations are
usually written in terms of percentage by weight, passing a particular
screen size. The gradation is as follows:
Gradation Specification
spec ideal
Sieve Size % passing % passing
3/8" 95 to 100 97.5
#4 75 to 90 82.5
#8 62 to 82 72
#16 38 to 58 48
#30 22 to42 32
#50 11 to 28 19.5
#200 2 to 10 6

Best,

Dean

From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Aug 14 17:37:14 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 2004
Subject: Re Tree planting issues
Message-ID: <000d01c2430b$34a31740$45a1fea9@home>

Dear Daniel and the Stove List

You already indicate a broader knowledge of the issues that (apparently)
those in decision making positions.

Obviously I was raising new points and could not posibly cover all the
ramifications. My main point (which was not addressed to this group
actually) is that some people are working on large scale solutions without
taking their points of departure from external consultants with their
external agendas.

>The studies I have heard of, linking tree planting to less and not
>more rainfall/soil moisture, seem to dwell on the planting of high
>water usage plants in desert climates.

Quite so.

I think the Stovers will be interested to hear how some places might expand
their use of biomass rather than dwelling forever and a day on how to
conserve, limit, cease harvesting of, stretch and so on. The fact is that
if you have no educated people in your population as a human resource pool,
you don't give up and design a society that runs with uneducated people, you
buckle down and create the resource. The same with biomass. Llimited
resources? Create more! You cannot develop your own oil or coal resources,
but you can certainly grow something useful.

On the sensitive subject of 'foreign' plants (and animals) I heard Dr Bill
Mollison address this issue one evening in Mbabane, Swaziland. Someone
asked him "...if all these trees you plant, are they indigenous?" He
literally glowered at the woman, sick as he was with tick bite fever and not
feeling up to tolerating people that evening, and replied, "Madam, not one
of the foods you eat comes from an indigenous plant." He was right, of
course. He also added something about not allowing his work to feed the
planet to be directed by eco-facists.

His point is well taken. When is a tree a weed? When it is not wanted.
When is a plant a weed? When it is not wanted, not when it is 'foreign'.
What's the difference?

I find it useful to consider the hunter-gatherer v.s. the farmer. When we
farm, we farm food and anything goes. You can plant anything you like to
grow and eat it anywhere in the world and people rejoice. When you gather
wood for fuel, you are a hunter-gatherer and collect what naturally falls
from the tree, so to speak. Why? Is it wrong to farm trees for useful a
purpose?

Yes, I hear, but only for fruit and nuts, and _maybe_ the wood for timber,
but fuelwood is supposed to be 'natural' and only the natural offtake should
be taken so that it is natural after all forests are natural.

What bunk. The entire forest east of the Rockies in Alberta is unnatural.
Are we going to cut that down? It only grew up when the farmers moved in
and prevented the grassfires from burning.

Who says I can't plant a forest with 'other' species that give me something
I want like animals and medicines? Why is my farm a 'natural area' because
it has trees in it? Obviously old growth forest is a different situation
but I dont want to confuse the issue by bringing in that aspect.

I am not saying everything has to be a monocrop, but 'farming' trees is no
different from farming maize. Imagine if you will, a South Africa in which
people are allowed to grow sunflower (from Russia) for fuel oil to run
tractors, but not allowed to grow black wattle (from Tasmania) for fuelwood
or woodgas. That is apparently (subject to correction) the present
situation. The hunter-gatherers are winning out over the farmers. Farming
is FAR more productive that hunting and gathering. That is why we settled
as a species into villages and stopped running around the countryside
looking for our next meal. Timber companies farm trees. To say otherwise
is silly. When houses were first build in number in the region, the roofing
timbers had to be imported from the UK. Imagine! There was simply nothing
to cut down. One hundred years later there are huge, managed forests
providing furniture, housing, fuel, factories, caskets, carvings and food.
One of the most popular woods for African traditional carvings is the
Jacaranda (from Brazil) which grows all over the place. Lovely tree and
makes pretty good firewood too.

Common sense is not prevailing in this woodfuel debate. The future of
energy, in the very long term, might involve very large amounts of biomass.

By the way, trees also harvest a lot of dust out of the air (apart from
their water/fog capturing abilities). I read that poplars can bring down as
much as 5 tons per acre per year. This is a form of self-fertilizing.

Regards
Crispin

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Wed Aug 14 17:39:00 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Roberto_Escard=F3?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: More on ABC
Message-ID: <015501c24320$5384c5e0$0100a8c0@pentium>

Following with today mail from Ron:

Full report is at www.rrcap.unep.org/abc/impactstudy/
There are 4 .pdf files weighing 11 MB in total . It is worth to take a look
at it, very clear and full of useful info for stovers.
(next week, while at office I will excerpt some useful references and post
it, I do not have an Acrobat at home )

Crispin: Your letter is excellent

Regards to all

Roberto Escardó

From cree at dowco.com Wed Aug 14 17:47:43 2002
From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Cleaning up clouds
In-Reply-To: <001e01c2435b$16a6a4a0$b81e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <001401c243fc$f6aabf40$6d8457d1@olsen>

Dean wrote.........That burning biomass considerably adds to the problem
reinforces the importance of our work here, doesn't it? So few people are
studying how to burn biomass cleanly...........

I believe that there is a big misconception of clean Biomass, and that only
clean dry sawdust (in Canada) for instance, is a clean fuel to use in any
stove design.
Sticks of not so dry wood etc.,with bark and impurities only add to the
smoke and pollution problems..
regards
John Olsen
www.heatloginc.com

From Carefreeland at aol.com Wed Aug 14 20:33:38 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Re Tree planting issues
Message-ID: <185.cb933eb.2a8c88cb@aol.com>

>> Dan's comments in text

Dear Daniel and the Stove List

You already indicate a broader knowledge of the issues that (apparently)
those in decision making positions.

>> Thank you for the compliment. I learned much of this while recycling abused land in one way or another. Nature can be both very forgiving or very unforgiving, God is in the details.

>The studies I have heard of, linking tree planting to less and not
>more rainfall/soil moisture, seem to dwell on the planting of high
>water usage plants in desert climates.

Quite so.

>> So well said! The best aspect is that oil and coal resources do not grow back better and faster each time. People can continue to become more educated and ecosystems can continually improve beyond the first harvest. So why are we so pessimistic?

His point is well taken. When is a tree a weed? When it is not wanted.
When is a plant a weed? When it is not wanted, not when it is 'foreign'.
What's the difference?

>> I find it interesting that plants quickly colonise sterile volcanic soil on a new island in the middle of the ocean. What is indiginous here? Most plants can sooner or later find their way to where they want to be. It doesn't matter if a seed is carried in a birds gut or a mans pocket. The important thing is the symbotic relationships that develop over time, to maximise the usefulness of the resources at hand. This is what we destroy when we change nature. We need to be focused on a new relationships that include man's needs as part of the closed cycle.

>> The reason for tilting away from the classic monoculture tree farm may not be in what we loose. Look at what we gain by utilising a sustainable higher production system with all of the benefits of both natural and man made systems of production.
No-till farming was greatly underestimated because no one had waited long enough for the soil structures to re-optimise the new system. Nature had to meet man in the middle. Man had to give nature a chance.
>> Everybody is looking at this verses that system. Maybe the best answer is between the two. I also learned this from nature. Nature never excludes any plant that trys to make it. All of the other plants try their best to make room and share resources. Things aren't always as competitive as it first appears.

What bunk. The entire forest east of the Rockies in Alberta is unnatural.
Are we going to cut that down? It only grew up when the farmers moved in
and prevented the grassfires from burning.

>>And much of the great planes of USA would be somewhat tree (tall scrub) covered were it not for the buffalo -and man. A large pine forest once existed in central Colorado east of the front range, but once it was cut down, it never recovered. Soil just blew away without protection. Examples exist throughout the world.

Common sense is not prevailing in this woodfuel debate. The future of
energy, in the very long term, might involve very large amounts of biomass.

>> Now let me add a huge new factor into the equation. Just with conventional breeding, crops of all sorts have increased production between 2x and 10x in the last 200 years. What happens when you combine breeding with increased CO2 levels and even almost undetectable greenhouse gas warming? Some plants can increase production greatly with just a few extra days in the growing season. Minor increases in CO2 avalibility greatly increase the productivity of photosynthisis. We are looking at doubling atmospheric CO2 at present rates of increase.
>> I predict that 50 years from now we will be harvesting at least double the biomass energy per acre from smart forestry. That trend will go up for many centurys to come. The tree farms will look more like natural forests and perform better than nature in many aspects.

Regards
Crispin

>> While man has been developing modern society, plants have been mostly relegated to the role of servants. In the future man must look at plants as partners in an unending loop of life. The potential is enormous. Maybe the fuel demand side of Biomass Energy will create market forces that give incentive to do what needed to be done anyway.
A better way to grow,
Daniel Dimiduk
Shangri-La Research

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Aug 15 02:43:16 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: radiative insulation
Message-ID: <00ad01c24449$9da60600$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Tom

>So, while we are developing improved stove insulation, think
>in terms of radiative insulation of various kinds.

The very rapid rise in heat output from our stove used in the rapid boiling
test (0 to 25 kw in 40 seconds) was a result of using a reflecting fire
grate.

Regards
Crispin

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Aug 15 02:44:02 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Clean sticks?
Message-ID: <00ae01c24449$9e4ddec0$2a47fea9@md>

Dear John

>Sticks of not so dry wood etc.,with bark and impurities only add
>to the smoke and pollution problems.

If the matter going up is carbon that is available to the trees, then is it
not 'pollution' in the petrol-powered car kind of way. Yes there is smoke,
but if it is vented outside it doesn't cause much problem. I agree clean
burning is better, but I feel we should at least mentally separate the
damaging, long term negative pollution from 'natural' smoke that goes back
into biomass from the 'inedible' products of other pollutants. Dark smokey
fires with large chunks of unburned carbon and wood are not very damaging -
they just look terrible and you shouldn't breathe it.

Very high temps bring on the hex-ring problems of dioxins.

Are we agreed that a visually 'clean' burning car is worse than a smokey
fire?

Regards
Crispin

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Aug 15 02:44:44 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Cleaning up clouds
In-Reply-To: <001e01c2435b$16a6a4a0$b81e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <00ac01c24449$9cfe2d40$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Dean

I have tried to get my wife to use the Rocket stove that Peter Scott brough
to me for evaluation (stainless two-pot with oven) and she objects strongly
to the need to feed the sticks in while cooking. It does not suit her
cooking/working pattern.

I don't have time to reflect on the evaluation she gave me when we cooked
two pots of water - later pls.

There are very fundamental differences in what and how people cook in the
Americas and Africa. There is simply no way people are going to feed in a
Rocket fuel stick in Africa. Cooking is done slowly while other tasks are
undertaken. The stove will have to run for at least 30 to 45 minutes
without any attention.

I put in one chunk of wood into the Basintuthu Single Stove and it brought 3
litres of water to a boil and held it in that condition for 45 minutes
without attention. That, people will use. If your ground rules include no
top loading or batch loading, then it will be limited to the Americas where
people attend the cooking process (making pancakes etc) so they are present
to attend the end-burning sticks. Yes, it is very clean, but requires far
too much (nearly constant) attention to work here. All things considered, a
woodgas stove which can be reloaded would be better.

Regards
Crispin also searching for a far better solution.

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Thu Aug 15 02:57:36 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Cleaning up clouds
In-Reply-To: <001e01c2435b$16a6a4a0$b81e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815205017.00a6e190@localhost>

At 23:22 13/08/02 -0700, you wrote:
>My best guesses on how to reduce emissions in these kind of cooking stoves
>are:
>
>1.) Have smoke go through coals
>2.) Force smoke to scrape against surfaces above 1200F.
>3.) Natural draft is used to create turbulence
>4.) Preheat primary or secondary air
>5.) Increase the time that fire is inside combustion chamber
>6.) Keep the portion of the wood that is not burning cool

Excellent, Dean.

The Rocket stove would stand a good chance, I am sure it can be
made to burn clean. The Downdraft stove is also demonstrably clean, it
could be made to burn sticks, possibly even self feeding to some extent by
having the fuel on an inclined plane, also the grate. The sticks would have
to be fairly thin and reasonably straight.
I am sure we in the WSG never expected the call for clean combustion to
become so strident.

Wishing you all the luck with your important work.

Kind regards,

Peter Verhaart

From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Aug 15 04:17:02 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Clean sticks?
Message-ID: <cf.1b77a559.2a8cf53a@aol.com>

> Comments in text

> Dark smokey wood fires can and do produce their own problems. Yes, it is more natural pollution, but no, it is not always less harmful. The smoke contains particles of soot and tars which can be carcinogens. Also present can be large amounts of CO and methane CH4 which take time to break down, damaging the atmosphere. Remember that methane is a worse greenhouse gas than CO2. Oil, coal and gas can however, also produce the same emissions and worse if not properly burned.

Very high temps bring on the hex-ring problems of dioxins.

> I thought that dioxin contained chlorine which is not always present in large quantitys in oil. Some chlorine is present even in biomass. Dioxin is largely a result of burning certain plastics and other chlorine containing compounds. Some coal contains more chlorine. Remember that chlorine is in salt.

Are we agreed that a visually 'clean' burning car is worse than a smokey
fire?

> Cars produce nitrogen oxides from higher temps and pressures. They also produce sulfur compounds which are particularly harmful. Any smoke is generally bad smoke which is why we are all working so hard to eliminate it. The oil and gas industry are working hard to eliminate most sulfur from burning their fuels. This only happened when people became concerned and complained. Fortunately, the same amount or less refinment of the fuel and the burning process, will produce much cleaner emissions- almost none, from biomass.

Regards
Crispin

From dstill at epud.net Thu Aug 15 08:38:38 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Cleaning clouds by metering
Message-ID: <001901c2445b$11320a40$6b1e6c0c@default>

Dear Crispin,

Certainly, batch feed has many advantages. As you reflect, here in the
Americas my limited experience has been that essentially only sidefeed, how
one feeds an open fire, is acceptable. Even downdraft/downfeed where sticks
can naturally fall pulled by their own weight into the combustion chamber
wasn't accepted by villagers in Mexico. I would love to be able to use batch
feeding because it can be very clean burning, allows great preheating of
combustion air, top burning, long burn times,etc. I'm very glad that this
pattern can be used in Africa! With all of the advantages of batch loading
it's only because folks insisted on sidefeed that we're concentrating on the
traditional pattern.

Metering the fuel is, I think, one of the most important design principles
in burning wood cleanly. The sawdust burning stove, pellet stove, top
burning batch fed stove, side fed Rocket stove, downdraft/downfeed, etc. all
exemplify this principle. Burning a stick of wood cleanly is harder than
burning carefully sized amounts of fuel (sawdust, pellets) that drop into a
small combustion chamber because the stick is too big to burn well at once.
Burning the tips while keeping the remainder of the stick below smoking
temperatures does a pretty good job getting close to the clean burning
characteristics of the sawdust and pellet stove.

Best,

Dean

From snkm at btl.net Mon Aug 19 12:01:43 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Three-km-deep Smog Cloud Covers South Asia
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020817085710.00935100@wgs1.btl.net>

Another interesting article -- new "slant"

High Lighting:

Toepfer stressed that the Asian haze was largely "the result of forest
fires, the burning of agricultural wastes, dramatic increases in the
burning of fossil fuels in vehicles, industries and power stations and
emissions from millions of inefficient cookers burning wood, cow dung and
other 'bio fuels'."

Peter/Belize

The Times of India OnlinePrinted from:

timesofindia.indiatimes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Smog cloud threw monsoon off course
RASHMEE Z AHMED
TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ MONDAY, AUGUST 12, 2002 9:30:31 AM ]
LONDON: India and the rest of the South Asian region are covered by a
deadly, three-km deep blanket of pollution, which is radically changing
monsoon patterns, causing drought, reducing India's winter rice harvest and
literally killing hundreds of thousands of people by respiratory disease, a
new study has said.
The report on the 'Asian Brown Haze', released here on Monday by scientists
working with the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), said the vast
"pollution parcel" could endanger the economic success of South Asian
countries, particularly India.

The haze has been identified as a deadly cocktail of ash, acids, aerosols
and other particles by 200 scientists, including India's A P Mitra of the
National Phyiscal Laboratory, Professor V. Ramanathan of the Scripps
Institute of Oceanography in the United States and Nobel laureate Paul
Crutzen of the Max-Planck Institute for Chemistry in Germany.

The scientists, who believe the worst may be yet to come for the stricken
area, said the effects of the haze would intensify over the next 30 years,
as South Asia's population rises to an estimated five billion people.

In the meantime, says the report, higher levels of respiratory diseases are
leading to "several hundreds of thousands" of premature deaths, as revealed
by data from seven Indian cities, including Ahmedabad, Kolkata, Delhi and
Mumbai.

The report said the Indian data suggested some kind of air pollution was
responsible for 24,000 annual premature deaths in the early 1990s. Just a
few years later, said the report, the number of premature deaths had
increased to an estimated 37,000 per year.

Underlining the importance of the new study on the so-called Asian Brown
Cloud, UNEP executive director Klaus Toepfer warned, "In India they are
expecting more than two million people to die because of the incomplete
burning of biomass" or the open fires used by the majority of ordinary
Indians to cook their food.

The scientists, who are calling for an action plan to address the threats
across Asia as a whole, have also frightened much of Europe by the
suggestion that the Asian haze has "global implications".

On Monday, Toepfer pointed out to a shocked Europe that "a pollution parcel
like this, which stretches three kilometres high, can travel half way round
the globe in a week".

Environmental groups such as Friends of the Earth have been calling for
India and other affected countries to be helped to popularise solar cookers
among the poor.
Roger Hingman of Friends of the Earth also criticised the West for selling
"cars to the middle classes in India".

The UNEP says Project Asian Brown Cloud should establish observatories to
study the haze as well as its impact on agricultural, health and water
budget.
Related stories:

India blamed for Asian Brown Cloud
Drought-hit economy slowing in 02/03
Farmers face grim future as monsoon fails to keep date
Indian officials unaware of the smog effect
TOI Edit: Weather bane
The UN Environmental Programme

© Bennett, Coleman and Co., Ltd. All rights reserved.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From rmiranda at entelnet.bo Mon Aug 19 12:03:22 2002
From: rmiranda at entelnet.bo (Rogerio Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Ecostove on BBC, brown cloud/stoves on CNN
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMELECAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20020815140420.00d30bf0@entelnet.bo>

Just for your information

The past 2 days I have seen on CNN International 2 interviews related
to the brown cloud over south Asia. In the first one, one of the leading
scientist of the south Asia brown cloud team, Dr. Ramanathan, pointed out
that the most danger of the brown cloud phenomenon is really happening
indoors, since the IAP has a more directly effects on death than the
outdoors. He even mentioned that Indian scientists estimated in 2 million
deaths per year from IAP ( stoves ?), while a Berkeley study (Probably Dr.
Kirk Smith) estimated in 1/2 million deaths per year.

In another interview, the Indian minister for the environment (I don't
recall her name) mentioned that the responsibility over the brown cloud
should be imposed on the richest (the polluting industries and car owners)
and not to the poorest like household biomass stove owners.

Rogerio

At 05:00 PM 8/15/2002 +1200, Ian Bywater wrote:
>on 8/15/02 8:57 AM, Ron Larson at ronallarson@qwest.net wrote:
>
> > Rogerio is below alerting us to the possibility that we can see a BBC
> > documentary - at least partly on stoves - this coming Saturday evening and
> > Sunday morning.
> >
> > I have looked at our local public TV scheduling and find nothing that
> > sounds similar. Anyone able to help me?
>
>Yes, I saw it on BBC World last night (the programmes get frequent repeats
>during the week.) Brilliant to see how a family's health and welfare
>improved with the new stove.
>
>Ian, New Zealand

From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Aug 19 12:09:58 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Cleaning clouds by metering
In-Reply-To: <001901c2445b$11320a40$6b1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <1029509929.3d5d132957f20@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Dean and all,

I REALLY LIKE what you wrote because the Juntos gasifier is both batch feeding
and with metering.

Interesting that a frequent criticism of the Reed-style IDD gasifier is that it
is batch feed, But now I am hearing about advantages of batch over continuous
feed. It will be good to remember that.

About metering, the big advantage of the gasifiers (ala Juntos and Reed) is the
metering via the control of the primary air supply. Not yet well studied nor
under complete control, but we are working on it. I hope to show "high, medium
and low" heat levels at the WSSD stoves events, with sustained lengths of burn
time relative to each rate of consumption of the "batch" of fuel.

All of this says nothing about the LACK of control we have about the uniformity
of the fuel (unless the fuel is processed, and that includes briquettes and
pellets and other processed biomass.) We do not see "uniform" splinter of real
wood coming from hatches and machetes. Fuel consistancy is an ongoing problem
until agencies / governments provide similar assistance for production and
distribution of biomass fuels as they do for processed fossil fuels. We can
hope that such assistance about fuels will be forthcoming.

If you are coming to the WSSD events, my cell phone number in South Africa is
083-542-4949. Call me so we can get together between 24 and 29 August.

--
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(In Mozambique until early October)

Quoting Dean Still <dstill@epud.net>:

> Dear Crispin,
>
> Certainly, batch feed has many advantages. As you reflect, here in the
> Americas my limited experience has been that essentially only sidefeed, how
> one feeds an open fire, is acceptable. Even downdraft/downfeed where sticks
> can naturally fall pulled by their own weight into the combustion chamber
> wasn't accepted by villagers in Mexico. I would love to be able to use
> batch
> feeding because it can be very clean burning, allows great preheating of
> combustion air, top burning, long burn times,etc. I'm very glad that this
> pattern can be used in Africa! With all of the advantages of batch loading
> it's only because folks insisted on sidefeed that we're concentrating on
> the
> traditional pattern.
>
> Metering the fuel is, I think, one of the most important design principles
> in burning wood cleanly. The sawdust burning stove, pellet stove, top
> burning batch fed stove, side fed Rocket stove, downdraft/downfeed, etc.
> all
> exemplify this principle. Burning a stick of wood cleanly is harder than
> burning carefully sized amounts of fuel (sawdust, pellets) that drop into a
> small combustion chamber because the stick is too big to burn well at once.
> Burning the tips while keeping the remainder of the stick below smoking
> temperatures does a pretty good job getting close to the clean burning
> characteristics of the sawdust and pellet stove.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu

From dstill at epud.net Mon Aug 19 12:10:55 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Damon's latest experiment
Message-ID: <001a01c24653$7a087640$bc1e6c0c@default>

Dear Friends,

Damon Ogle continues to do remarkable work which we hope to continue this
week in the August stove class. You all can imagine how Damon's work excites
everyone here at Aprovecho. The HOBO CO monitoring system seems to be
functioning so we should be able to add some numbers to the observations of
smoke density. What a great feeling when things seem to be moving forward!

The complete report will be posted at CREST. Due to the length of the report
here are the introduction and conclusion.

Best,

Dean

INTRODUCTION
The “rocket elbow”, developed by Larry Winiarski and Aprovecho Research
Center, has resulted in increased efficiency and reduced air pollution in
cookstoves used in Third World countries. The search for even cleaner
combustion in “rocket stoves” requires that several conditions be achieved
at the same time. Temperatures must be high enough and maintained for long
enough to allow for full combustion. It is thought that a temperature of
1200 F or higher is necessary to burn such compounds as methane. There must
be the proper amounts of fuel and air for complete combustion to occur. The
fuel and air must mix thoroughly for a good burn to take place. Air
velocity must be high enough to produce high temperatures but not so high
that the flame blows itself out. All the above conditions must be
maintained for long enough for combustion to be completed
Previous experiments have shown that very high temperatures can be obtained
by directing more air up through the “charcoal” at the bottom of a rocket
elbow and minimizing the air entering above the fuel feed level. The
highest temperatures (over 1800 F) were obtained using a relatively short
12” rocket chimney and were accompanied by copious black smoke.
A single experiment at Aprovecho in June of this year suggested that when a
good insulating material is available, very little heat is lost in the
passage of gases through even a long tube. In this case there was a drop of
only 100 F when gases passed through a four-foot long series of fiber
ceramic “riser sleeves”.
One problem with using tall “rocket elbows” is that the greater draft
created by the tall chimney tends to draw in excess air and cools the
exhaust gases. High velocity airflow may be even faster than the
propagation speed of the flame and the fire can “blow” itself out.
The purpose of this experiment was to see if the draft in a modified rocket
stove could be controlled so that high temperatures could be produced and
then be carried through the length of a long “rocket” chimney. It was hoped
that this process would result in cleaner and more complete combustion while
maintaining the high temperatures essential to efficient cookstoves
A modified “rocket stove” was adjusted so that the airflow through the fuel
feed area was held at a minimum. Airflow through the bottom or charcoal
layer of the stove was adjusted to openings ranging from 100% to 10% of the
cross sectional area of the combustion chamber. Exit gas temperatures were
measured for 12”,24” and 36”chimney heights. The experiment was then
repeated using baffles at the top of the stove chimneys to control airflow
while the bottom was left completely open. High T, Low T ,and estimated
mode T were recorded for 3 runs. Notes were made of the visual appearance
of smoke and flame as well as other unusual observations.

CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

Controlling draft at the exit point of a “rocket elbow” is much more
effective than trying to do so from the point at which air enters the elbow.
It is possible to produce high temperature exit gases (above 1200 F) and
maintain their temperature through the length of a long combustion chimney.
High temperature and “dwell time” by themselves are not sufficient to
produce dependably clean combustion. It may be necessary to further mix the
exit gases (either by turbulence or by other means) in order to aid
combustion in rocket stoves.
Higher temperatures and cleaner burns are sometimes obtained by partially
blocking the flow of gases through a rocket stove. It may be possible to
use mixing devices or jets of air to achieve this blocking effect and
improve combustion at the same time.

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Aug 19 12:14:22 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Abstracts on IAQ
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIAEOBCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:
Stovers:

I received a promotional flyer today from the group sponsoring a recent 5
day conference in California on Indoor Air Quality. I started thinking that
there would be little of interest for our stoves list, but found I was
wrong. There were about 25 papers more or less related to stoves in
developing countries (out of 762 papers in total) The full proceedings on
disk are $100 - and I am hopeful that we can get some help from stoves list
members who were at this Major Conference on how to see the 3% that would be
of interest to us.

Anyone able to give us some more leads - or can report on audience reaction
to the two World Bank sessions (each of 1 hr 50 minutes)?

The remainder of this pretty long message are the abstracts that I took off
of a free pdf file. Hard to read, but I think there is some very useful new
data here - some by our list members, but many who are not list members.

Notes on following : "o" refers to an oral presentation, "p" to a poster
paper. I list them in the order presented. The second paper below (4A1o2)
by Kirk Smith, et al was a plenary paper. I could well have missed some
important abstracts - as I just skimmed through the full list.

2B4p6 An estimate of greenhouse gas emissions from common Kenyan cookstoves
under conditions of actual use
R Bailis, M Ezzati and DM Kammen
We report on greenhouse gas emissions from wood and charcoal cookstoves
measured during actual conditions of use in 19
randomly selected rural Kenyan households. CO, particulate matter (PM10 ),
mass of fuel, and the state of combustion were
measured or recorded in real-time. Emissions of pollutants other than CO and
particulates were estimated using data adapted
from extant literature. We find the average daily emissions from charcoal
stoves are lower than woodstoves when measured in
terms of carbon released. However, when the emissions are weighted to
account for global warming potential, charcoal stoves
are much more polluting than wood stoves by any metric. Further, accounting
for emissions from charcoal production
increases the disparity between charcoal and firewood. However charcoal
still carries potential health benefits at the household
level because of reduced particulate emissions relative to firewood
combustion. Some policy options are discussed in light of
these potentially conflicting findings.

4A1o2 The global burden of disease from indoor air pollution: results from
comparative risk assessment
KR Smith, S Mehta, and M Feuz
Recent estimates (organized and coordinated by WHO) of the global burden of
disease for some two dozen risk factors by age,
sex, and region include, inter alia, malnutrition, hypertension, tobacco
use, obesity, unsafe sex, and several environmental risk
factors, including lead, climate change, and indoor and outdoor air
pollution. Only two categories of indoor pollution were
deemed sufficiently well characterized regarding both exposure and risk to
attempt to make global estimates: environmental
tobacco smoke and combustion products from household use of solid fuels
(biomass and coal). We summarize here the
approaches used to estimate the health impacts from solid fuel use,
including exposure modeling and meta-analyses for major
disease endpoints. Although all the risk factor studies are not yet
completed, the results seem to place indoor air pollution as a
major risk factor worldwide, perhaps fifth after malnutrition, tobacco, HIV,
and poor water/hygiene/sanitation in attributable
burden.

4C5 World Bank Symposium - Indoor Air Quality and Health in Developing
Countries I

4C5o1 Respirable particulate levels in rural households of Andhra Pradesh,
India - daily concentrations and time
activity data
K Balakrishnan, S Sankar, R Padmavathi, J Arnold, S Mehta, KR Smith, C Rao,
S Kumar, P Kumar, S Akbar and K Lvovsky
Indoor air pollution associated with combustion of solid fuels seems to be a
major contributor to the national burden of disease
in India but few quantitative exposure assessment studies are available.
This study quantified daily average concentrations of
respirable particulates in 420 rural homes from three districts of Andhra
Pradesh, India and recorded time-activity data from
1400 household members. Mean 24-hr average concentrations ranged from 70 to
850 µg/m3 (Geometric mean- 56 to 570
µg/m3) in gas versus solid fuel using households respectively.
Concentrations were significantly correlated with fuel/ kitchen
type and fuel quantity. Household sub-groups including women/men/children
differed significantly in total time spent in
kitchen/living/outdoor area microenvironments. The data are being used to
calculate population exposures and develop a model
to predict quantitative categories of exposure based on housing and fuel
characteristics. This would facilitate the development
of a regional exposure database and enable better estimation of health
risks.

4C5o2 Levels and determinants of indoor air pollution exposure in young
Guatemalan children
N Bruce, J McCracken, R Albalak, M Schei, KR Smith and V Lopez
Objective: To assess levels and determinants of kitchen pollution and child
exposure associated with a range of stove/fuel
combinations in rural Guatemala. Methods: 204 households with children <18
months, measurement of 24-hour mean kitchen
CO and child CO, and 24-hour kitchen PM3.5 in sub-sample. Results: Almost
50% homes still used open fires, around 30%
chimney stoves (planchas) mostly from a large donor-funded programme. Homes
with planchas had lowest kitchen levels:
mean (95% CI) CO of 3.09 (1.87-4.30) ppm vs. 12.4 (10.2-14.5) for open
fires. The same ranking was found for child CO.
Multivariate analysis showed stove/fuel type was the most important
determinant of kitchen CO (p<0.001), with some effect of
kitchen volume and eaves. Stove/fuel type was also the key determinant of
child CO (p<0.001), with some effect of child’s
position during cooking. Conclusion: Community stove programmes have been
effective in reducing smoke exposure of
young children, but further improvement is needed.

4C5o3 Exposure assessment for a rural community using biomass fuel in
traditional and improved stoves
RS Patil and S Dash
In developing countries biomass fuels are burnt mostly in primitive stoves
causing serious implications for exposure and
health. To overcome this problem, the most common intervention attempted is
the introduction of improved smokeless stoves.
The performance of these new stoves is tested under controlled conditions
but there is a dearth of data under field conditions.
The objective of this study is to evaluate the effectiveness of the improved
stoves in terms of personal exposure in a rural
community. In the study Respirable Particulate Matter (PM5) and CO were
monitored on a longitudinal basis i.e., before and
after the introduction of intervention (improved stove). Results show
improved stoves reduce average PM5 concentrations by
37% for personal sampling and CO concentrations by 54% near the stove during
cooking period. For the community as a
whole there is an average 40 % reduction in daily-integrated exposure to PM5
with the improved stoves (p<0.0001).

4C5o4 Relationship among personal, indoor and outdoor fine particle
concentrations for individuals with chronic
obstructive pulmonary disease living in three areas of Mexico City
M Cortez Lugo, F Holguin Molina, M Hernández Avila1, E Palazuelos Rendón and
R Santibáñez Ruelas
Our study characterized indoor and outdoor exposure to PM10 and PM2.5 in 39
participants with varying degrees of chronic
obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) from the National Institute of
Respiratory Diseases in Mexico. Participants were
selected based on the area of residence: from the southeast, downtown and
southwest areas of the Mexico City Metropolitan
Area, and were followed from February through November 2000. Mini-volt
samplers were used to measure indoor and outdoor
Indoor Air 2002 Abstracts 124
levels of PM10 and PM2.5, and personal PM2.5 monitoring devices were also
used. The highest concentrations of particulates
were registered during winter, maximumPM10 , PM2.5 and personal PM2.5 levels
were 180.6, 160.5, and 126.8 mg/m3 ,
respectively. The highest correlation observed for the study variables, was
between personal PM2.5 and home indoor PM2.5
levels. On average, the southeast area registered the highest levels of PM10
and PM2.5.

4C5o5 Addressing health and household energy problem in Zimbabwe
L Mika
The success of past stove projects implemented in Southern Africa has been
limited mainly due to some social shortcomings.
Their focus has been on reducing fuelwood consumption, environment
protection and improved fuel supply. Few projects
attempted to address the effects of indoor air pollution despite its
negative health effects. Recognising this problem, two stove
programmes in Zimbabwe have integrated energy saving with improvement in
health. Results of an energy and health baseline
survey done in two districts of Zimbabwe show that there are serious
fuelwood shortages and the communities are at risk from
high smoke levels. Measured CO levels in kitchens were within the range of
300 – 1000 ppm. The residence time for women
and children in the kitchens were on average 5 hours per day. In Chimanimani
District, medical records showed that ARI was
prevalent among children below the age of five and in adults it was second
to malaria.

4C5p1 Reducing indoor air pollution through participatory development in
rural Kenya
N Bruce, E Bates, R Nguti, S Gitonga, J Kithinji and A Doig
Objective: To evaluate effectiveness of smoke reduction interventions in
rural homes. Methods: 24-hour kitchen respirable
particles (kPM3.5), kitchen CO (kCO), and personal CO (pCO) for the cook
were assessed before and after interventions in
Kajiado (n=25) and West Kenya (n=25). Women participated in developing
interventions, including improved stoves (12),
enlarged windows (all) and eaves (27), and hoods (17). Results:
Pollution/exposure levels were high: mean 24h kPM3.5 5,530
mg/m3 (Kajiado), 1,710 mg/m3 (West Kenya); 24h kCO 74.7 and 8.8 ppm
respectively; 24h pCO 6.98 and 4.16 ppm
respectively. Following interventions, there were marked reductions in all
measures. For 15 homes receiving hoods, kPM3.5
was reduced 75% (p=0.001), kCO by 77% (p=0.001) and pCO by 35% (p=0.011).
Enlarged eaves and windows reduced
kPM3.5 by 62% (p=0.001) in West Kenya. Residents appreciated better
lighting, ventilation and smoke reduction, although
concerns about privacy required attention. Conclusion: This participatory
approach achieved effective smoke reduction, and
promoted interest in further development (155).

4C5p2 Using household characteristics to predict respirable particulate
levels in rural households of Andhra Pradesh,
India
S Mehta, KR Smith, K Balakrishnan, S Sankar, R Padmavathi, S Kumar and S
Akbar
Using Andhra Pradesh, India as a case study, CART and logistic regression
were used to assess how household and fuel
characteristics can be used to predict whether households have high or low
concentrations of respirable particulate matter in
kitchen and living areas. Results of both techniques indicate that high
concentrations can be classified more accurately than
low concentrations. Fuel type is the most important prediction parameter.
Indoor kitchens are more likely to have high kitchen
concentrations. For living-area concentrations, the specific type of kitchen
is less important than whether the kitchen is separate
from the living area. Improvements in kitchen ventilation do not occur at
the expense of air quality in the living area. Using
both kitchen type and kitchen ventilation does not improve prediction over
using one of these parameters and a site visit can
help inform which to use in future studies.

4C5p3 Modeling of indoor-outdoor relation of air pollutants in Mumbai City
RS Patil and VA Kumar
The objective of this study was to develop an Indoor – Outdoor (I/O) air
pollutant concentration model and to validate it with
monitored data. The model can be used to predict indoor concentrations and
thereby personal exposure levels from outdoor
concentrations, which are historically routinely monitored, and relatively
easier to measure than indoor levels. The study was
conducted in Mumbai City for three typical areas viz. residential,
residential cum mixed and industrial, which represent
increasing order of outdoor pollution. Middle income group houses were
selected where kerosene and LPG fuels are used for
domestic cooking. Simultaneous monitoring of both indoor and outdoor
concentration of Respirable Particulate Matter (PM5)
and NO2 was done. An indoor air quality model based on mass balance approach
was used to predict I/O ratios. The overall
percentage error between observed and model predicted I/O values is –26.0%.
Over prediction by the model may be due to
the assumptions in inclusion of removal processes.

125 Indoor Air 2002 Abstracts
4C5p4 The investigation and analysis of indoor air pollution in China
Z Tonghua, T Guangbei, W Lai, C Hua and L Jing
People spend more than 80% of their time in room. It is very imperative that
the indoor air pollution problem be studied,
because it does great harm to people’s health with the increasing of the
sources of indoor air pollution. The main reasons of
indoor air pollution are found by investigation and analysis in some Chinese
metropolises, and some measures to improve the
indoor air quality are put forward.

4C5p5 Residential air quality in wood burning houses in Costa Rica
K Lee and E Park
Many people in developing countries rely on biomass fuels for cooking. The
high levels of PM2.5 and PM10 in houses with
biomass fuels may be a significant risk factor of respiratory illness. We
measured residential air quality to improve our
understanding on the extent and severity of indoor air quality from biomass
combustion. The residential air quality was
measured in houses with a wood burning stove in rural areas of Costa Rica.
PM2.5 and PM10 concentrations were measured by
single stage impactors and particle size distribution was continuously
measured by an aerodynamic particle sizer. CO and CO2
concentrations were measured. PM2.5 and PM10 measurements had averages of
42.3 µg/m3 and 126.5 µg/m3, respectively.
Average CO concentrations were between 0.5 and 3.3 ppm. Although particulate
concentrations showed high peaks during
cooking periods, the levels were quickly decreased after cooking. People at
risk, especially women and children, may be
exposed to high level of particulates during cooking.

4C5p6 Impact of indoor air pollutants on health of women – a case study
A Mandal and S Mandal
About three quarters of household use biomass as their primary fuels, more
than 90% of them use wood or animal dung.
Moreover, in India, about one half of all household do not have separate
kitchen (IIPS, 1995).Indian cooking needs long hours
and since tobacco smoking is not common in Indian women, the main smoke
exposure in women is from kitchen. Indian
cooking also use lots of oils and gee as frying media, producing oil vapors
which are inhaled. So, a study was undertaken to
find out the impact of these pollutants on the health of women. The base
line health status was determined by questionnaire.
Total suspended particulate matter (TSP), smoke density and oil vapors were
measured. Results strongly suggest that the use of
biomass fuels and wood for cooking increase the concentration of TSP in
Indoor and also increase the risk of respiratory
infection, cataract and other diseases.

4C5p7 Impact of ambient air pollutants on the indoor air quality in Mumbai
JM Deshpande and UD Holla
SPM, the major pollutant in Mumbai’s air exceeds the Indian annual standards
for the residential area. The RSP component is
minimum in Summer [24%] and maximum in Monsoon [35%]. An epidemiological
survey, carried out in (i) commercial cum
industrial [Parel] (ii) urban clean [Borivili] having pollution index 76 and
56, showed health morbidity 37% & 26%
respectively. Since the person spends 80% to 90% of the time indoors, a
pilot survey of the indoor and the monitoring site air
quality was carried out. Good correlation between RSP at the monitoring site
& indoors during Winter & Summer and weak
correlation during Monsoon was observed. Validation of Mass balance model
reveals that the predictions are having errors in
the range -4.5% to-47.6 %. The over prediction may be due to the location of
indoor monitors in living room, whereas the
significant indoor pollution source was in kitchen.

4D5 World Bank Symposium - Indoor Air Quality and Health in Developing
Countries II

4D5o1 Indoor air pollution from biomass stoves as a risk factor for acute
respiratory infections in Kenya
M Ezzati and DM Kammen
55 randomly-selected households (including 93 infants and children; 229
individuals between 5 and 49 years of age; and 23 at
ages = 50) in central Kenya were followed up for more than 2 years.
Longitudinal data on acute respiratory infections (ARI)
and acute lower respiratory infection (ALRI) were recorded in weekly
clinical examinations. Exposure to PM10 was estimated
from 210, 14-hour days of continuous real-time monitoring of particulate
matter concentration under the conditions of actual
use as well as the location and activities of household members,
supplemented by data on spatial dispersion of pollution and
interviews. Estimates of risk associated with exposure to indoor smoke
(measured by PM10 concentration) are presented using
linear and logistic models for average daily exposure below and above 1000
mg/m3. There was increased risk for both total
ARI and ALRI for those at higher exposure in both age groups.

Indoor Air 2002 Abstracts 138
4D5o2 Asthma and indoor air pollution among indigenous children in Guatemala
MA Schei, JO Hessen, J McCracken, V Lopez, N Bruce and KR Smith
Objectives: To estimate the prevalence and severity of asthma among
indigenous children in Guatemala, and the association
with cooking on open fires. Methods: In 1058 homes with children 4-6 years
of age, we interviewed the mothers using
standardized ISAAC procedures and questionnaire. Results: Only 3.4% reported
wheezing symptoms in the last 12 months. In
a logistic regression model, use of open fire for cooking was a significant
risk factor for a number of asthma symptoms, with
odds ratios varying from 1.81 to 3.21. For the different cooking
technologies (1=improved stove with chimney, 2=mixture of
gas and open fire, 3=open fire) we observed significant trends for some of
the symptoms. Conclusions: The asthma prevalence
is low among indigenous children in Guatemala, compared to other populations
in Latin-America. Use of open fire for
cooking, may be an important risk factor for asthma symptoms and severity.

4D5o3 An evaluation of the indoor/outdoor air pollution and respiratory
health of farmers living in rural areas of
Anhui province, China
X-C Pan, Z Dong, L Wang and W Yue
To evaluate the levels of indoor air pollution in rural areas of China and
their effects on respiratory health, we monitored the
indoor (bedroom and kitchen) and outdoor levels of PM10, SO2 and CO in 189
randomly selected households of rural areas,
Anhui province, China. We also conducted an investigation of 487 subjects
between the ages of 15 – 65 years old with a
questionnaire. The PM10 level of indoors air was significantly higher than
that outdoors (518±27/287±9mg/m3, P<0.01), in
contrast to the SO2 level that was lower. We didn’t find a significant
association to asthma onset with these levels of PM10 and
SO2 of the indoor air (P>0.05). FVC, FEV1 were closely related with the CO
and PM10 exposure indices in the bedroom
(P<0.01). Conclusion: the indoor air pollution in rural areas may come from
combustion of fuel in cooking and heating, which
has had adverse effects on the respiratory health of the subjects.

4D5o4 Effects of cooking smoke on asthma in the elderly
V Mishra
Effects of cooking smoke on the prevalence of asthma among elderly men and
women (age 60+) are examined using data on
38,595 elderly living in 92,486 households included in India’s second
National Family Health Survey conducted in 1998–99.
Effects of cooking fuel type (biomass fuels, cleaner fuels, and a mix of
biomass and cleaner fuels) on asthma prevalence are
estimated using logistic regression. Results indicate that elderly living in
households using biomass fuels have significantly
higher prevalence of asthma than those living in households using cleaner
fuels (OR=1.59, p<.0001), even after controlling for
effects of age, tobacco smoking, education, living standard, and several
other potentially confounding factors. Active tobacco
smoking also increases the risk of asthma significantly. As expected, the
effect of cooking smoke on asthma is considerably
greater among women (OR=1.83, p<.0001) than among men (OR=1.46, p<.001).

4D5o5 Domestic smoke pollution and respiratory diseases in Nepal
MR Pandey
The main respiratory diseases caused by Domestic Smoke Pollution (DSP) are
chronic bronchitis and chronic obstructive lung
diseases. In our study conducted in Nepal, the increasing trend of the
prevalence of chronic bronchitis as the hours of exposure
to domestic smoke pollution increased (even after elimination of the age
effect and also among the non-smokers) established
the definite role of domestic smoke pollution in causing this disease.
Another study showed significant correlation of DSP and
airway obstruction in smokers but the association was not significant in
non-smokers. Significant correlation has also been
found of DSP with acute respiration infection in studies done in Nepal and
several other countries. Apart from these, there is
evidence that DSP can also cause interstitial lung disease, tuberculosis and
asthma. Further research work is recommended in
these areas.

4D5p1 Investigation and evaluation of firewood consumption in traditional
houses in Nepal
HB Rijal and H Yoshida
Firewood consumption and air temperature were investigated in winter and
summer in traditional houses in the Banke,
Bhaktapur, Dhading, Kaski and Solukhumbu districts of Nepal. The firewood
consumption rate was 235-1130kg/capita/year.
The results showed that the temperate climate used less firewood than the
sub-tropical climate. The indoor and outdoor
temperature difference (7.8 C), the vertical temperature difference (7.1 C)
and maximum indoor air temperature (42 C) were
most significant in the kitchen. The results demonstrated a waste of energy
in winter and an uncomfortable thermal
environment in summer. If thermal storage on the wall were introduced as
well as airtight openings and improvements in
fireplaces, we could reduce the usage of firewood, and the thermal and air
environment would be improved.

139 Indoor Air 2002 Abstracts
4D5p2 Health impacts of cooking fuels on females in Uttar Pradesh, India
H Biswas and J Parikh
In this paper we try to establish the association between biofuel use and
respiratory diseases namely bronchitis, asthma, chest
infection, tuberculosis and eye irritation as per British Medical Research
Council (BMRC, 1986) questionnaire. This is based
on a large comprehensive survey covering sample of 7564 households (HH)
(10264 females) in 6 districts and 51 villages in
UP. Logistic regressions are carried out using disease variables as
dependent variables with adjustments for confounding
variables like age, smoking, illiteracy, income, asset possessions, village
characteristics, etc. Biofuel cooking has negative
impact on the health of the individuals. Level of education too plays a
vital role in symptom occurrence. With the improvement
in economic status prevalence of diseases decreases. Efficient fuels,
adequate ventilation, awareness through education can
serve as policy prescriptions for better health status.

4D5p3 Indoor air quality related standards in China
Z Bai, C Jia, T Zhu and J Zhang
In 2001, the Chinese national standard entitled “Code for Indoor
Environmental Pollution Control of Civil Building
Engineering” along with another 10 indoor air quality (IAQ) related
standards were issued. In addition to this standard, the
China Ministry of Health also issued the directive entitled “Hygienic Norm
for Indoor Air Quality”. This paper reviews the
development of IAQ-related standards and regulations in China, specifying
the scopes, objectives, administrative authorities,
and implementation plan.

4D5p4 Economic burden of respiratory illness in rural Uttar Pradesh, India
J Parikh and H Biswas
In this paper we estimate the economic burden of respiratory illness in
rural Uttar Pradesh (UP), a state in North India. This is
based on a large comprehensive survey covering sample of 7564 households
(HH) (16264 individuals) in 6 districts and 51
villages in UP. The survey, collected data on costs incurred on doctors’
fees, hospitalization, medicine, additional cost for
special diet and days lost. The average costs incurred are higher among
males by 1.2 times. The total direct health care cost for
the entire adult population (greater than equal to 15 years) in the state of
UP (rural) comes to 548.1 Million rupees (1 US $=
Rs. 48) per month. The economic value of the days lost due to illness in one
month is Rs 4233 Millions. Cleaner fuels, health
education and better health care can avoid some of these expenditures.

4D5p5 Studies on indoor air pollution from domestic fuel in China
Y Qin
Coal is used in most of homes as domestic fuel in China. Many Chinese
scientists conducted investigations on indoor air
pollution and adverse effects on human health. The paper reviewed the major
findings. The concentrations of pollutants in
indoor air in households where coal is used as domestic fuel for cooking and
heating are much higher than those in households
where piped gas or liquefied petroleum gas are used. The levels of nearly
all pollutants measured in kitchens are higher than
those in bedrooms in different seasons. The concentrations of pollutants in
indoor air are higher than those in atmosphere.
Studies also showed that coal burning induced higher incidence of
respiratory illness. Particularly, the study in Xian wei
revealed that the concentrations of PAHs in homes using smoky coal were
higher than those in homes using wood and a strong
relationship between concentrations of PAHs and incidence of lung cancer was
found.

4D5p6 Impacts of cooking coal smoke and heating coal smoke on respiratory
health of children in four Chinese cities
Z Qian, J Zhang, F Wei, and RS Chapman
Data collected in a large epidemiologic study were analyzed to examine
respiratory health effects of residential coal use in
7058 school children living in four Chinese cities of Lanzhou, Chongqing,
Wuhan, and Guangzhou. A Scenario Evaluation
Approach was used to develop two exposure variables, heating coal smoke and
cooking coal smoke. Estimated lifetime
exposures to heating coal smoke, and cooking coal smoke, were both
classified into four-level ordinal scales, as follows:
control; lightly exposed; moderately exposed; and heavily exposed. Zero-one
dummy variables were constructed for each
exposure level other than the control level (total six variables). These
variables were entered into the analytical model. We
tested for exposure-response relationships using logistic regression models,
controlling for relevant covariates. We observed
exposure-response relationships between heating coal smoke and prevalence
rates of phlegm, cough with phlegm, and
bronchitis. We observed no consistent associations between cooking coal
smoke and the examined health outcomes.

Indoor Air 2002 Abstracts 140
4D5p7 Preliminary analysis of 6 coals associated with different lung cancer
rates
LW Tian, CP Koshland, RS Chapman, SK Hammond, and D Lucas
Indoor air pollution from coal burning causes high lung cancer mortality in
Xuanwei County, China, but the lung cancer rates
vary among the communes in this county that use different coals. We explored
the association between coal composition and
lung cancer rates in this region. Similar values of aromaticity were found
among all the coals studied. The two coals associated
with the highest lung cancer rates had the highest free silica and organic
sulfur. Iron contents (measured as ferric oxide) in coal
were in excellent correlation with the lung cancer rates. These results
suggest that polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH)
alone are not responsible for the observed lung cancer rates, but that a
complex chemical mixture is involved.

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Aug 19 12:18:08 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: More on Kirk Smith's papers
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIEOBCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

1. My last message included a reference to a very recent Kirk Smith
plenary paper on health impacts of stoves. I couldn't find it, but did find
a very recent set of recommendations from a conference just finished in
India, whre Kirk had a hand in some quite nice-looking recommendations.
See:
http://www.teriin.org/indoor/recomm.pdf

2. The first recommendation (out of 12 pages) says that we have a serious
stoves problem that needs attention.

3. In addition, I recommend his other papers, many of which are at:
http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/krsmith/Publications/publications.htm

Ron

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Mon Aug 19 12:19:03 2002
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Continuous feed rockets in Africa
In-Reply-To: <001e01c2435b$16a6a4a0$b81e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <3D5C06E7.E9A51003@legacyfound.org>

Crispin / Dean and Larry ,

A while back, one of the stove members sketched a simple rocket type stove for
continuous feed using briquettes. He simply devised an inclined feed-tube which
was loosly capped to discourage combustion in the feed tube, the air in from
beneath the stove and above the fuel area instead. In theory at least I hope
the the briquettes can some day be utilised this way in a rocket. (In fact I
think that your colleague Larry and I discussed it at his place a year ago,
Dean).

Holey briquettes, wood sticks, char dust, or whatrever, the fuel could be burnt
in a controlled fashion and the stove could be run unaided which is, agreed
with Crispin, likely to be the case in MwAfrica. (having to adjust the dish
every 15 minutes was the demise of the concentrating solar cookers in Africa,
much for the same reason).
How long a feed tube, what angle of incline and what type of cap and degree of
air restriction through same, has yet to be worked out but it seems doable and
easily tested, without lots of costs or time in the shop.

I agree with Dean and Larry that the rocket has lots of advantages but it
requires a 'load it and leave it' adaptation to work in at least east and
southern Africa, no matter what fuel one uses.

Richard

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Aug 19 12:27:24 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: cleaning up clouds
Message-ID: <000101c245e9$20484960$1752c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Alex,
I too read about the brown cloud over Asia. At least here in Maharashtra,
we are not experiencing anything of the sort at the present moment. In
fact, because of the monsoon rains, the levels of suspended particulate
matter as well as NO2, SO2 etc. have all come below the maximum permissible
levels in most cities of India. The smog and haze are generally higher in
winter, when the cold air prevents the pollutants to be carried away. Field
burning of biomass has been a feature in the Asian countries since time
immemorial, and it is generally done in the drier part of the year, when the
crops are harvested. There is some burning of biomass in the fields in the
month of May, but these are small areas, in which rice seedlings are raised.
A layer of biomass is laid on this patch of the field and ignited. It
sterilizes the soil, kills all the weed seeds and also insect eggs and
larvae, so that one gets healthy rice seedlings.
Use of biomass for cooking was on the decline, but this year the price
support on kerosene and cooking gas was reduced under the general principle
of reducing subsidies on everything, including electricity, fertilizers,
water, transport etc. Biomass is available, free of cost to villagers.
Therefore, even when kerosene and cooking gas were available at a relatively
low price, the villagers still prefered to use biomass as domestic fuel. It
is the urban poor, who are affected by the rise in price of kerosene and
LPG. They are reverting back to using wood and wood charcoal, but we want to
give them char briquettes made from agrowaste.
I really do not know how much of the so called brown cloud over Asia is
true and how much of it is sensationalism. It is an absolute fact that the
Western industrialised countries produce much more atmospheric pollution
than us, but they point fingers at us. For instance, the methane produced
in rice paddies was pointed out as a source of atmospheric pollution. Then
what about the methane produced in the bogs of Scotland, Ireland, Lapland,
Russia and Canada? Global warming is a phenomenon, that is cyclic. It has
occured in the past to cause the cycles of glacier forming and melting. If
greenhouse gases had anything to do with it, then in the former times, when
the humans had not conquered the world, the greenhouse gases must have been
produced by the dense tropical forests and bogs that existed in those times.
Now it is the human industrial activity that has taken over this role.
Yours A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Alex English <english@kingston.net>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>
Date: Saturday, August 17, 2002 5:15 AM
Subject: re: cleaning up clouds

>Dear Dr. A.D.Karve, Dr Priya Karve, (and other cloud cleaning stovers),
>
>This recent news stories about the Asian Brown Cloud describe something
which is a
>local winter event for you.The study which led to the story attributed a
significant
>portion of the pollution to biofuels and biomass burning. The news reports
then referred
>to cooking fires as a cause. This led to stovers adopting the new banner
of "cloud
>cleaner". It must be a contributor but I don't quite see the evidence in
the report
>support the notion that cleaner household cooking stoves would have a
>significant effect towards reducing this "cloud". The statistics in this
study
>for biofuel usage range by over 200%. It is not clear that field burning
is included in
>biofuel statistics. If so it is poorly named. There is no mention of
seasonal
>variations which could be significant for field burning and perhaps other
emission
>sources. Can I assume that there isn't much field burning during the summer
>monsoon? Presumably biomass cooking fuel usage is not seasonal? Cooking
fuel
>usage is not mentioned as a percentage of any total biofuel or biomass
burning.
>The seasonal nature of the brown cloud makes me wonder if field burning
>of crop residues plays a larger role. I assume sugar cane trash would
>provide the largest portion in your region.
>
>Clearly the seasonal nature of the cloud derives from the lack of rain to
clear the
>aerosols and particulates from the atmosphere. It could also relate to the
lack of rain
>preventing field burning in the summer and the need to dispose of crop
residues during
>the winter.
>
>The necessary statistics may not be available to you or anyone to answer
this
>completely. So if not, I am just asking for your opinion as to the relative
>contributions of these various emission sources in your region of
Marharashtra
>and India to this "cloud".
>
>Either way, if ARTI's charcoal kiln and steam cooker could have a
significant
>effect if they become widely adopted and were to replace field burning and
>raw biomass stoves.
>
>Sincerely Alex
>Alex English
>399 Church St
>Enterprise Ontario
>Canada K0K 1Z0
>

From tombreed at attbi.com Mon Aug 19 12:28:23 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of viruses..
In-Reply-To: <20020816065936578.AAA498@netbook_server.cdcom.com.cn@Cpcpifups>
Message-ID: <005101c2477b$bc211770$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Pete and all:

I probably get 100 Emails a week from the STOVES
and GASIFICATION list. I am running about 15% infected with KLEZ
virus. My Norton Antivirus advises me to quarantine them, so I do and
mostly don't see them among the messages.

Whenever I SEND to the list the message
is always checked by NAV before it leaves.

So I hope I am not any source of virus here.
I hope all of you can say the same, but some are getting through, always
KLEZ.

Yours truly, TOM
REED
GASIFICATION MODERATOR
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A title=pverhaart@optusnet.com.au
href="mailto:pverhaart@optusnet.com.au">Peter Verhaart
To: <A title=tombreed@attbi.com
href="mailto:tombreed@attbi.com">Tom Reed
Cc: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 7:06
AM
Subject: Re: Have a new Assumption
Dear
Tom, I
have just installed a new mainboard in my computer, as well as an anti-virus
program. Since a few days I get at least 3 messages a day containing the KLEZ
worm, and they are all, ostensibly, from the Stoves list. Some even from <A
href="mailto:tombreec@attbi.com">tombreec@attbi.com, others from
stoves-help and from stoves-unsubscribe. All of them containing short messages
in what we used to call "peccable English''.I will again check my
computer for viruses but I think it is clean. A clever idea of the inventor,
bye the way, to set list members up against one
another.Cheers,Peter VerhaartAt 06:03 16/08/02 -0600,
you wrote:
Dear Pete
Verhaart: I assume this message
is the result of some (Klez?) virus on your computer.
TOM REED

----- Original Message -----
From: pverhaart
To: tombreed@attbi.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 12:59 AM
Subject: Have a new Assumption

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Mon Aug 19 12:30:39 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Have a new Assumption
In-Reply-To: <20020816065936578.AAA498@netbook_server.cdcom.com.cn@Cpcpifups>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817225854.00a6b750@localhost>

Dear Tom,
I have
just installed a new mainboard in my computer, as well as an anti-virus
program. Since a few days I get at least 3 messages a day containing the
KLEZ worm, and they are all, ostensibly, from the Stoves list. Some even
from tombreec@attbi.com, others from stoves-help and from
stoves-unsubscribe. All of them containing short messages in what we used
to call "peccable English''.
I will again check my computer for viruses but I think it is clean. A
clever idea of the inventor, bye the way, to set list members up against
one another.
Cheers,
Peter Verhaart
At 06:03 16/08/02 -0600, you wrote:
Dear Pete
Verhaart:

I assume this message is the result of some
(Klez?) virus on your computer.

TOM REED

----- Original Message -----
From: pverhaart
To: tombreed@attbi.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 12:59 AM
Subject: Have a new Assumption

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Aug 19 12:31:35 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:00 2004
Subject: Fwd: E-mail test letter
Message-ID: <10d.16a64197.2a924630@aol.com>

This is a test letter to stoves. E-mail problems?

To: Carefreeland@aol.com
Subject: RE: E-mail test letter
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 05:58:50 -0600
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <122.15b01104.2a91b2c8@aol.com>

Hi Dan,

This is the test letter.

I sent two messages to the stoves list about midnight Saturday and now
realize that they havev not been received by me. For that reason I am
sending this also to Tom Miles to get an update on whether there may be
problems at crest.org

Thanks for the alert. Tom?

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Carefreeland@aol.com [mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 8:33 PM
To: ronallarson@qwest.net
Subject: E-mail test letter

Hi Ron,
I am having problems getting my mail. None for days, then all mail at
once with backdates on them. Is this related to a list problem? I seem to
be getting other mail late as well, but maybe it is mostly list related. I
have had no mail this weekend. I wonder what I am missing. Please send a
quick test letter asap and I'll reply when I get it. Thanks,
Dan Dimiduk

From snkm at btl.net Mon Aug 19 12:39:57 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Three-km-deep Smog Cloud Covers South Asia
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020817022832.0097f1b0@wgs1.btl.net>

Another interesting article -- new "slant"

High Lighting:

Peter/Belize

The Times of India OnlinePrinted from:

timesofindia.indiatimes.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The scientists, who are calling for an action plan to address the threats
across Asia as a whole, have also frightened much of Europe by the
suggestion that the Asian haze has "global implications".

On Monday, Toepfer pointed out to a shocked Europe that "a pollution parcel
like this, which stretches three kilometres high, can travel half way round
the globe in a week".

The UNEP says Project Asian Brown Cloud should establish observatories to
study the haze as well as its impact on agricultural, health and water
budget.
Related stories:

© Bennett, Coleman and Co., Ltd. All rights reserved.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Aug 19 12:40:53 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Relighting the Fire
Message-ID: <00c801c247a1$525a6dc0$6501a8c0@tommain>

This is just a test burn to relight the
list.

Tom

From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Aug 19 12:43:40 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Damon Ogle Rocket Stoves - Controlling Draft
Message-ID: <004201c246de$e856c580$6501a8c0@tommain>

All,

Damon Ogle has provided the results of his lates
experiments controlling draft on Rocket Stoves

Rocket Stoves - Controlling Draft, August 17,
2002
<A
href="http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Ogle/stovedraft.pdf">http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Ogle/stovedraft.pdf

See Damon's earlier test results:

Rocket Stoves - In Search of Higher Temperatures,
July 20, 2002
<A
href="http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Ogle/DOStovetest.html">http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Ogle/DOStovetest.html

Regards,

Tom Miles

From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Aug 19 12:46:32 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Uganda stove tests: Emma George Final Report
Message-ID: <004101c246de$e831ff70$6501a8c0@tommain>

All,

Emma George has made her Final Report on the GTZ
Uganda stove project available. I have placed it on the Stoves website in
pdf format along with her previous report.

A Comparison of Wood Burning Cookstoves for Uganda,
August 2002
<A
href="http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/George/A%20Comparison%20of%20Woodburning.pdf">http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/George/A%20Comparison%20of%20Woodburning.pdf

Woodstoves for Uganda, June 2002
<A
href="http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/George/WoodstovesforUganda.pdf">http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/George/WoodstovesforUganda.pdf

or link from the stoves page

<A
href="http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/">http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

Regards,

Tom Miles

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello,This is the final report from my GTZ Uganda stove project. I
e-mailed the "simple" version some time ago. Good if you could make it available
to the list. Comments are welcome.ThanksAll the bestEmma
<A
href="mailto:emma@george.as">emma@george.as

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Aug 19 13:07:43 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Three-km-deep Smog Cloud Covers South Asia
Message-ID: <00d301c247c5$29eca820$ff28fea9@home>

Dear Stovers

>India and the rest of the South Asian region are covered by a
>deadly, three-km deep blanket of pollution, which is radically
>changing monsoon patterns, causing drought, reducing India's
>winter rice harvest ...

I would like to state that there is at present an El Nino event going on and
it is a bit of a stretch to blame the weather changes on the cloud when it
is the cloud that is the result of the weather change brought about by the
cyclical patterns of floods and droughts. We are very familiar here in
Swaziland with the summer rainfall pattern of droughts which follow a 18.7
year cycle. We have 400 years of statistics and it is pronounced.

We are having a typical drought and I predicted it in 1978. It is not
'caused' in the classic sense by the stoves or burning forests or vehicles.
Thie only thing 'dung' about it is the idea that it might be something
unnatural. The El Nino event of 1935-36 was far worse.

Regards
Crispin

From english at kingston.net Mon Aug 19 13:40:57 2002
From: english at kingston.net (Alex English)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: cleaning up clouds
In-Reply-To: <000001c244c8$fceaf600$0e56c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <3D5D5638.9166.2ED3E47@localhost>

Dear Dr. A.D.Karve, Dr Priya Karve, (and other cloud cleaning stovers),

This recent news stories about the Asian Brown Cloud describe something which is a
local winter event for you.The study which led to the story attributed a significant
portion of the pollution to biofuels and biomass burning. The news reports then referred
to cooking fires as a cause. This led to stovers adopting the new banner of "cloud
cleaner". It must be a contributor but I don't quite see the evidence in the report
support the notion that cleaner household cooking stoves would have a
significant effect towards reducing this "cloud". The statistics in this study
for biofuel usage range by over 200%. It is not clear that field burning is included in
biofuel statistics. If so it is poorly named. There is no mention of seasonal
variations which could be significant for field burning and perhaps other emission
sources. Can I assume that there isn't much field burning during the summer
monsoon? Presumably biomass cooking fuel usage is not seasonal? Cooking fuel
usage is not mentioned as a percentage of any total biofuel or biomass burning.
The seasonal nature of the brown cloud makes me wonder if field burning
of crop residues plays a larger role. I assume sugar cane trash would
provide the largest portion in your region.

Clearly the seasonal nature of the cloud derives from the lack of rain to clear the
aerosols and particulates from the atmosphere. It could also relate to the lack of rain
preventing field burning in the summer and the need to dispose of crop residues during
the winter.

The necessary statistics may not be available to you or anyone to answer this
completely. So if not, I am just asking for your opinion as to the relative
contributions of these various emission sources in your region of Marharashtra
and India to this "cloud".

Either way, if ARTI's charcoal kiln and steam cooker could have a significant
effect if they become widely adopted and were to replace field burning and
raw biomass stoves.

Sincerely Alex
Alex English
399 Church St
Enterprise Ontario
Canada K0K 1Z0

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Aug 19 13:51:45 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Cleaning up clouds
Message-ID: <000001c24516$ea09c0e0$8e9ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

In charcoal burning stoves, the fire does not have to be continuously
tended. In the stove-and-cooker configuration that we are trying to
popularise among the urban poor, the cooker accepts three pots, one holding
rice, another holding beans or meat and the third holding vegetables. The
pots sit one on top of the other. The housewife lights char briquettes in
the stove below the cooker and once the fire gets going, she can even go out
of the house and come back after about an hour. The briquettes would have
burnt out by this time, but she gets a cooked hot meal. Because the cooker
cooks using steam, there is no danger of the meal getting burned (unless she
puts too little water in the cooker). The cooker has a double wall with a
gap of about 6 mm between the cooker and the outer jacket. The assembly has
been so designed, that the flue gases have to pass through this gap. 100 g
char briquettes can cook a meal for five persons. A housewife using a
traditional wood burning stove and cooking each item separately, would
require about 3 kg wood to cook the same amount of food. The stove is made
of mild steel, but the cooker, the outer jacket and the pots inside the
cooker are all made of stainless steel. We are offering the stove-and-cooker
assembly for Rs. 500 (US$10) each. The cost is so low, that people just
cannot resist buying it, and they then become permanent customers of our
char briquettes! :-)
A.D.Karve, President,
Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
Pune, India
-----Original Message-----
From: Crispin <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: Stoves <stoves@crest.org>
Date: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: Cleaning up clouds

>Dear Dean
>
>I have tried to get my wife to use the Rocket stove that Peter Scott brough
>to me for evaluation (stainless two-pot with oven) and she objects strongly
>to the need to feed the sticks in while cooking. It does not suit her
>cooking/working pattern.
>
>I don't have time to reflect on the evaluation she gave me when we cooked
>two pots of water - later pls.
>
>There are very fundamental differences in what and how people cook in the
>Americas and Africa. There is simply no way people are going to feed in a
>Rocket fuel stick in Africa. Cooking is done slowly while other tasks are
>undertaken. The stove will have to run for at least 30 to 45 minutes
>without any attention.
>
>I put in one chunk of wood into the Basintuthu Single Stove and it brought
3
>litres of water to a boil and held it in that condition for 45 minutes
>without attention. That, people will use. If your ground rules include no
>top loading or batch loading, then it will be limited to the Americas where
>people attend the cooking process (making pancakes etc) so they are present
>to attend the end-burning sticks. Yes, it is very clean, but requires far
>too much (nearly constant) attention to work here. All things considered,
a
>woodgas stove which can be reloaded would be better.
>
>Regards
>Crispin also searching for a far better solution.

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Aug 19 15:00:27 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: E-mail test letter
Message-ID: <7a.2b9fbd4a.2a92d1fc@aol.com>

> comments below

Tom (cc Dan) Thanks a lot. Whew - 4 days!!

Ron

> Tom M, Ron,
I received all of the test letters and much mail OK. This is the second time the list apparently was down. The first time was around the 15th of Aug. for a day or so. Does this check out with your records? You will see the letter to Crispin that I also forwarded a second time (re: tree planting) when it failed to appear.
Crest, we have a lift off,
Daniel Dimiduk

From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Aug 19 16:57:27 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: E-mail test letter
In-Reply-To: <7a.2b9fbd4a.2a92d1fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <024501c247e4$379173b0$6501a8c0@tommain>

The list was apparently down from Aug 15 to the
19th and was fixed today. It looks like all the messages got stuck in a queue.
Naturally these things happen on weekends.

Tom
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A title=Carefreeland@aol.com
href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com">Carefreeland@aol.com
To: <A title=ronallarson@qwest.net
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net">ronallarson@qwest.net ; <A
title=tmiles@trmiles.com
href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com">tmiles@trmiles.com ; <A
title=stoves@crest.org href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org

Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 3:58
PM
Subject: Re: E-mail test letter
In a message dated
8/19/02 6:05:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net">ronallarson@qwest.net
writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE">> comments belowTom (cc Dan) Thanks a
lot. Whew - 4 days!!Ron> Tom
M, Ron, I received all of the test
letters and much mail OK. This is the second time the list apparently
was down. The first time was around the 15th of Aug. for a day or so.
Does this check out with your records? You will see the letter to
Crispin that I also forwarded a second time (re: tree planting) when it failed
to appear. Crest, we have a lift off,
Daniel Dimiduk

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Aug 19 18:33:30 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: clearing up clouds, and climate
Message-ID: <da.1c8b21b6.2a93040a@aol.com>

> Daniel's comments below.

I really do not know how much of the so called brown cloud over Asia is
true and how much of it is sensationalism. It is an absolute fact that the
Western industrialised countries produce much more atmospheric pollution
than us, but they point fingers at us.

> Karve, my good friend, You should know it is always easier to blame the other guy when he is not alert to defend himself. This is especially true concerning gas emissions. ;-) You don't accuse, you just notice the odor and stare.
> Has anybody measured the emissions from those huge steelmills in the south end of the former Soviet Union? Opps, we missed that. Not mentioning any countrys by name, but noting record production. I figure by steel production figures, one plant is about comparible to all of Pittsburgh PA. in the early 1960's. I breathed my share of that brown cloud in my youth while visiting Grandmas.
> How about Korea and Japan? If they are driving EVERYBODY else out of the steel business, they must be emitting a little pollution too. I'm not sure if it counts if no one sees it at night, and it blows out to sea. It must be the winds fault when it comes back in with the sea breeze.
> You must understand that the winner in the Global steel business is usually the one who spends the least on labor and pollution control, beyond catching the ore dust lost. Looks like China and India are boxed in, no matter how the wind blows. We must account for the coking process emissions there too. That coal comes from somewhere. I don't think that the little man on the street is in much control of that though. Must be outside investors who don't breath that air for days.

For instance, the methane produced
in rice paddies was pointed out as a source of atmospheric pollution. Then what about the methane produced in the bogs of Scotland, Ireland, Lapland,
Russia and Canada?

> Where is Tami Bond when we need her to explain this stuff with all of her facts and figures?
> Your previous mentioned gas emissions are part of a background of natural sources for these gasses. Much of this is somewhat constant. Also included in this are releases from methane hydrates, yet to be completely understood. The earth has an ability to metabolize a certain amount of emissions in a balance that maintains the current temperature cycles.
> The action of phenomenon such as volcanos produces measurable swings in these climate cycles, as does various solar cycles.

Global warming is a phenomenon, that is cyclic. It has
occurred in the past to cause the cycles of glacier forming and melting. If
greenhouse gases had anything to do with it, then in the former times, when
the humans had not conquered the world, the greenhouse gases must have been
produced by the dense tropical forests and bogs that existed in those times.
Now it is the human industrial activity that has taken over this role.
Yours A.D.Karve

> This is very true as mentioned. With the best climate charts I have seen, things like the long term relationship between climate the Earth's tilt, and Sun's orbits are the most pronounced. These changes do not occur in a lifetime. The roughly 11 year sunspot cycle is the most regular short term cycle.
> What is most concerning is the cycles that reflect the prehistoric actions of volcanos. There is a well documented relationship between particulates, methane, sulfur compounds, CO2 and climate temperature. Most of this data is deep ice core derived and is like growth rings on trees, very reliable. This is the data that also shows the effect of man's emissions on the temperature and snowfall in cold regions.
> In some cases, the actual air samples are trapped with the snow from particular periods. This cycle is not much of a cycle at all. If the background cycles are removed, there is an almost steady rise in temperature since industrialization began. Small fluxuations are now being attributed to specific industrial developments.
The only comparable period in prehistoric history would be the carboniferous period.
> Some scientists believe that gradual warming sets off releases of undersea methane hydrates which amplifies the cycle. Increased rainfall and accompanying snowfall then slowly reverses the cycle over a thousand years or more. Throw in changes the Ocean current cycles and who knows where we end up? We are all about to find out.
> My prediction is that since we are pushing the temperature largely in the same direction, it will be much like pushing a swing. Each short cycle will be more pronounced. When the solar energy is weakest, atmosphere cools, clouds will reflect the most heat. When the solar energy is strongest, the clouds will evaporate, winds will increase, amplifying the heating effect.
> I have watched the weather forecasts change dramatically during solar storms-usually hotter and dryer inland, and cloudier over the water as evaporation increases.
Fronts carrying rain just dry up suddenly and unexpectedly, and rain moves in near coastal areas. Go figure. Notice droughts in the western US and deluge in Texas. Sound familiar?
> Then there's those Northern lights to give solar storms a visable face. All I get is a painful sunburn that I hadn't counted on, like last May, dispite my lifetime working outdoors. Must be the lack of Ozone in the right place, about at the level above the top of a thunderstorm.
> The point of this is that we are all to blame. Some of us just have more control over things than others. With this control comes responsability. If a large US Corporation is planning on polluting in say, Slovakia, is the US to blame, or is Slovakia? I think someone here is a victim, and someone is a villian. I don't know who, but I bet THEY do.
> Lastly, let's look at those overlooked wonderful individuals like yourself that are DOING something about the problem. I'll bet you are too busy feeding people and putting young people through college, to measure the tonnage of pollutants removed by your clean charcoal and stove projects. Maybe you should measure daily.
> I gave a small donation to your program during a visit to a Bloomington Illinois rotary club meeting. I earmarked my small token contribution for your fund. Those rotary clubs all work together. I wonder if they have rotary clubs in Pittsburgh? Why do large steelmaking Corporations have to have pollution credits to donate to such funds? They have a bunch of ways (forementioned) to skirt the pollution laws anyhow. I think that the founding father of such a Corporation would endorse giving to charitys. Who know's, maybe their luck in business might just change?
> We have to think Globally and act locally. Some people have that reversed when considering their plans for dealing with emissions.
Take care Karve, always a pleasure to converse with you.
Daniel Dimiduk

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Aug 19 19:17:16 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Three-km-deep Smog Cloud Covers South Asia
Message-ID: <1a4.70cf402.2a930e28@aol.com>

> Daniel comments below

> Crispin, this is the signature of influence of an ocean or sea current, straight forward predictability. Hope it always stays this way for your sake as the Antartictic Ice sheet melts.
>We used to have cyclical winter weather here as well in the Northern transition zone. A half a degree of temperature difference would mean snow instead of freezing rain. Now we feel like we moved to Lexington Ky. 100 miles to the south. This happened in only 20 years. When it does get cold though, it does so all at once, briefly and in record style. Climate in some areas is more prone to amplification of climate cycles. Other areas are more immune.

Regards
Crispin

> The USA is having a non-typical Drought. I also sense unusual constant influence of cool water off the Greenland coast. Melting Ice? Weather patterns are more stable, and the Northwestern Canadian Rockies send less cool air our way, just warm dry wind probably due to lack of snow. Typical El-Nino weather should send more rain up the Missippi River Valley, where is it? Where is the Western Monsoon? We're waiting.
> There is more trees in the lower Ohio Valley than in a hundred years, so why are we not getting more moisture from them up here in Dayton? Only in April and May this year, then the valve closed. Many questions and few answers. All likely related to a melting icepack north of here. That Ice influenced the summer cool fronts that drew moisture up out of the Gulf of Mexico.
> At some point I predict, it will all reverse with greater amplitude than before. Probably as the moist warmer winds coat the Canadian Rockies with record snows. Earth will try to correct the imbalance, at what expense?

Dan the Weatherman Dimiduk

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Aug 19 19:56:46 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Cleaning up clouds
In-Reply-To: <000001c24516$ea09c0e0$8e9ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <20020820025729.GA3857@cybershamanix.com>

On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 04:23:35PM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> In charcoal burning stoves, the fire does not have to be continuously
> tended. In the stove-and-cooker configuration that we are trying to
> popularise among the urban poor, the cooker accepts three pots, one holding
> rice, another holding beans or meat and the third holding vegetables. The
> pots sit one on top of the other. The housewife lights char briquettes in
> the stove below the cooker and once the fire gets going, she can even go out
> of the house and come back after about an hour. The briquettes would have
> burnt out by this time, but she gets a cooked hot meal. Because the cooker
> cooks using steam, there is no danger of the meal getting burned (unless she
> puts too little water in the cooker). The cooker has a double wall with a
> gap of about 6 mm between the cooker and the outer jacket. The assembly has
> been so designed, that the flue gases have to pass through this gap. 100 g
> char briquettes can cook a meal for five persons. A housewife using a
> traditional wood burning stove and cooking each item separately, would
> require about 3 kg wood to cook the same amount of food. The stove is made
> of mild steel, but the cooker, the outer jacket and the pots inside the
> cooker are all made of stainless steel. We are offering the stove-and-cooker
> assembly for Rs. 500 (US$10) each. The cost is so low, that people just
> cannot resist buying it, and they then become permanent customers of our
> char briquettes! :-)

Sounds neat! Do you have pictures of it on the web? How big and heavy is it?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Aug 19 21:06:44 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Use of vines as a biomsas resource?
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFICEPJCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

The free environmental e-mail newsletter that I like best is called
"Grist" - produced by the people who put on EarthDay (how to subscribe is at
the end of this note). Last Thursday's issue carried (fifth item) on a
growing menace of too-rapid growth of vines vs. trees (a by-product the
authors said in "Nature" of global warming). As we have been discussing the
possible value of bamboo over trees because of its rapid growth and
straightness, I wonder if we could suggest the same for vines. Cut through
at the bottom - then after death and drying, it should be able to be pulled
down and might (?) make a good substitute for fuel from trees. The (more
valuable) trees survive and cooking is (hypothetically) easier and cheaper.

I hope Dr. Karve or other botanist on the list can comment.

Ron

The rest from Grist. The web citation below to Reuters adds a little bit,
but I imagine we need to read "Nature".

5.
JUNGLE FEVER
Vines are the hallmark of any self-respecting jungle -- picture
Tarzan swinging in from offstage -- but the situation is getting a
bit out of control in the Amazon rainforest, where vines are growing
so quickly they are choking trees and possibly interfering with the
ability of forests to soak up greenhouse gases, according to a study
published in today's issue of Nature. An international team of
scientists found that the dominance of woody vines over trees
increased by between 1.7 and 4.6 percent per year in the 1980s and
1990s. The rapid spread of vines, which is the first observed change
in plant composition in virgin jungle, might itself stem from the
accumulation of greenhouse gases in the Amazon basin. The jungle has
been hailed as an efficient absorber of carbon dioxide, the leading
greenhouse gas, but vines soak up the gas far more quickly than
trees, speeding their growth and throwing the jungle eco-system off
balance.

straight to the source: MSNBC.com, Reuters, 15 Aug 2002
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/forward.pl?forward_id=371>

To subscribe to "Grist":

To subscribe to DAILY GRIST, click here
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/grist/signup/subgrist.asp?source=daily> or
send a blank email message to <daily-grist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>.

Daily too much for you? Try WEEKLY GRIST by clicking here
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/grist/signup/subgrist.asp?source=daily> or
sending a blank email message to <weekly-grist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>.

From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Mon Aug 19 21:37:32 2002
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Cloud Cleaners Unite
Message-ID: <3f0d73bfaf.3bfaf3f0d7@pmel.noaa.gov>

Stovers,

Below are some responses to specific people on the 'cloud cleaning'
topic. I will say a couple of things about the Brown Cloud itself in
another message.

(1) Ron, did you say it was UNFORTUNATE that I went on vacation? I
think I resent that ;-)

(2) 'Atmospheric warming and surface cooling': The surface directly
underneath is *always* cooled-- reduction of sunlight. That is one
reason for concern about crop production. Whether the net effect on the
earth+atmosphere system is warming or cooling depends on other issues--
like how the particles interact with sunlight.

(3) Crispin: You make some very good points in your letter. In
particular, I appreciate the dangers of tagging 'biomass' as including
everything from open fields and open cooking fires to the sort of
technology you want to promote. Indiscriminate usage of words could
give entire worthy technologies a bad name. We should be more careful.
What's creating these 'brown clouds' is, simply, cruddy combustion. It
doesn't matter whether it's dung, firewood, coal, diesel, or gasoline
in a 2-stroke engine; if you burn fuel without good mixing, you're
going to make a bunch of particles. Some fuels (coal) and some
conditions (high T/bad mixing) are better at it than others. If I get
good suggestions on language (simple, picturesque, politically
acceptable jargon) to replace 'biomass', I promise to use them and
furthermore, I will prevail on these $40m worth of scientists or
whatever to do the same (even though I have just a little voice).

(4) Further Crispin: Yes, some of the motivation for grid electricity,
renewables etc does seem to be removing control from local hands. Wish
I knew how 'Western' enthusiasm could be generated without the specter
of seeing poor people as potential markets. Sympathize very much with
your distaste.

(5) Clean sticks: Re Crispin's "If the matter going up is carbon that
is available to the trees, then is it not 'pollution' in the petrol-
powered car kind of way.... Are we agreed that a visually 'clean'
burning car is worse than a smokey fire?" I don't agree at all. The
products of incomplete combustion are not available to the trees until
they're oxidized to CO2 (I believe). In the meantime, they can
participate in ozone formation, gobbling up hydroxyl radicals that are
the 'detergent of the atmosphere', and whatever it is that particles do
to clouds (all bad). 'Unnatural' products are getting more prevalent
because humans go about putting combustible stuff through high
*temperatures* and there are more humans every day. These compounds
once came mostly from accidental fires. There are also compounds that
just can't be burned like sulfur and ash. This why coal is such a
problem, and high-sulfur transport fuels as well.

[Crispin-- I am not picking on you ;-)]

(6) Alex: No, 'we' do not know what the source of the brown cloud is.
Yes, please keep asking people who are *there* and have real eyes, not
just satellite eyes-- like the Karves. And write to me privately if you
want to banter about how this stuff is figured out; I am afraid that
some of that is my job.

(7) Karve: Oh, there is no sensationalism here at all ;-)

(8) Karve again: Re methane, the question is not really 'pollution'
but 'global change'-- if one can separate the two. For 'change', the
question is not how much methane is produced elsewhere, but how much
the atmospheric concentration is changing and why. If the bogs have
been around for centuries and some balance of source/sink with methane
has been achieved, and you throw in increasing rice paddies on top of
that and the sink can't compensate, it makes some sense to point
fingers at the rice paddies. What to do about it is another matter.
(And I don't think anyone is pointing fingers at India for CO2
emissions-- not yet, anyway.)

(9) Karve [I'm not picking on you either!] "The greenhouse gases must
have been produced by the dense tropical forests and bogs that existed
in those times." Not necessarily. First, we have more CO2 in the
atmosphere now than has ever been recorded in ice cores. Second,
temperature may control greenhouse gases as well as vice versa (e.g.
through solubility in ocean) so something *else* could trigger a temp
change and thereby produce a (slightly lagged) change in greenhouse gas
concentration.

(10) Dan: I have been wondering about those steel mills for a long
time. You know that! Anyone wants to let me measure STEEL MILLS and
COKING OVENS, give me a call.

More later
Tami

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Aug 19 22:00:36 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Cloud Cleaners Unite
In-Reply-To: <3f0d73bfaf.3bfaf3f0d7@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEPLCAAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Tami said
-(1) Ron, did you say it was UNFORTUNATE that I went on vacation? I
think I resent that ;-)

Ron now (sheepishly) says: The vacation was (presumably/hopefully)
fortunate for Tami, definitely unfortunate for the rest of us.

2. Also - I have had the pleasure of hearing Tami talk about this ABC
phenomenon at somewhat more length than most on this list - and can tell you
that she is looked to as one of the world experts on the impact of
particulates on global temperatures. Don't underestimate what she knows on
this subject. And she has been an important invited part of the scientific
discussions on the ABC - before the study was released - as part of her
regular (non-stove) job.

3. Thanks to Tami for keeping us technically correct.

4. Tami - is it fair to say that, in your opinion,
1) stoves are likely to be found to be a significant contributor to the ABC,
and
2) we can do something about it?, and
3) the world will be better off if funds from developed countries are
provided to developing countries to develop and install better simple
low-cost cookstoves?

Ron

From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Mon Aug 19 23:03:50 2002
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Cloud Cleaners Unite
Message-ID: <387483a952.3a95238748@pmel.noaa.gov>

Ron,

'World expert'? Okay, you made me blush. Honestly, it's much easier to
*overestimate* what I know...

You have asked loaded questions, and hence I will load my answers with
caveats, given that our discussion is Web-posted and traceable! I would
answer more lightly at your favorite watering hole.

> 4. Tami - is it fair to say that, in your opinion,
> 1) stoves are likely to be found to be a significant contributor
> to the ABC,

Yes, in some regions; because there's not much else.

Let's consider the light-absorbing (sooty) stuff only. Add up total
emissions from biofuels world wide, add residential coal emissions, and
you come up with a heckofalot. Even if industry and/or transport turn
out to be greater contributors, there's still quite a bit from
residential burning.

I will not commit to saying what made up *this* particular Asian brown
cloud-- the one measured during March/April 1999. I don't know what
open (forest/field) burning occurred during the time. Did fuel use or
burning differ from fuel use at other times of the year? If I seem to
know less than I should-- I'm guilty as charged, but I know a few of
the people who made the chemical and optical measurements in that
study, and I haven't yet found solid evidence for a clear apportionment
of where these particles came from.

> 2) we can do something about it?, and

Yes, we can probably do something about it. As someone said, they
cleaned up London, didn't they?

> 3) the world will be better off if funds from developed countries are
> provided to developing countries to develop and install better simple
> low-cost cookstoves?

Oh, my. Are you asking *me* if cookstoves are the intermediate
technology of choice? I believe they could be right in some situations.
Is the question 'Can cookstoves clean up the ABC?' Let's see the
evidence showing that emissions from improved stoves are lower, both in
the laboratory AND in the field, as-used. Let's show that performance
doesn't degrade to that of an unimproved cookstove. [Which some are
working on.] Then-- yes, maybe we can answer that question positively.

Is the next question 'Will the world be better off if industrialized
nations pay to clean up the ABC?' I'm stopped by that question. Sure, I
would personally like to see some participation and assistance from the
countries with higher GDP. But you and everyone on this list knows
something about the complexities of economics, 'aid', dissemination,
*institutional* sustainability. I would rather say, 'Yes, the world
would be better off if both industrialized and developing nations
recognized the existence of an emissions problem without pointing too
many fingers, and if they sat down as partners and agreed that people
are suffering from a myriad of ailments, with small-scale energy use
being at the core of some of them, and thought seriously about how seed
money from the so-called West could catalyze change. Improved stoves
could be likely candidates because they look an awful lot like what
people have now. But first stop, and take a moment of silence for the
magnitude of this challenge; maybe having a continent-sized haze makes
it look bigger to some people, but it doesn't much to me. Gather some
resolve, Stove your hearts out until that track works or doesn't, press
on with a full toolbox and an open mind.'

...But then, the development business is NOT anywhere near my
expertise... world status or otherwise.

Tami

From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Aug 20 04:17:59 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Use of vines as a biomsas resource?
Message-ID: <9a.2a55b298.2a938cec@aol.com>

> Daniel's comments

Stovers:

>I have spent a large amount of time cutting, fighting, pulling, burning, swinging on, and spraying, the abundance of vines here in the temperate *Jungles* of the upper Ohio Valley. "I feel that global warming is not nearly as much to blame as is land clearing for the upsurge of vines." Most vines need sunlight to start. Virgin forests have little sunlight to spare. The happiest a vine can be, is on the edge of a clearing in the woods. Man has created a lot of this habitat.
>Once a plant thrives, it spreads an overabundance of seed, and tends to take advantage of it's dominance. The vine that is most troublesome here lately is poison ivy. Once sprayed with a vengeance, it is now protected as a food source for migrating birds. Enough is enough. I have seen little kids loose much of their summer to hospital trips, rashes and itching. I find it in every landscape, even at shopping malls growing hidden in bushes like a stalker. Hard to kill the ivy without killing the shrub.
>When poison ivy was lacking as a native plant, most fields were mowed and sprayed. Highway rights of way, once sprayed, are now havens for this plague. If you drive locally in the early fall you can see the red leaves covering everything. If you burn it, the smoke can be toxic as well. Maybe a good choice for an automated high temperature gasifier system.
> Wild grape is another dominating vine locally. I spend a day a year just cutting it on my farm lot. Not much heat in that one. Good as a soil conditioner because it breaks down quick. Vines in general are natures soil builders because they spread like wildfire from places where the soil is good, to places it is not. The root systems resemble the vines above. When decomposing they rapidly add carbon and humus to the soil. I don't see vines as much a problem in good soils as they cannot compete as well here with more desirable species.
> Vines are OK when kept in place, but it is only mans fault that they are not. I don't believe global warming can be blamed for this one. As environmentalists trash the chemical companies for destroying the earth, let me put in a good word for Monsanto's Roundup. I can use it like a paintbrush to kill what I want, as deep or shallow as I want. Within a short time, no residue exists to pollute. Even using dirty water as a carrier can break this chemical down prematurely. The best news is that with the patents on the first formulation expired, the price is coming down and generic versions are coming out.
> Unfortunately, Roundup is still too expensive for third world use, where it is needed. Fortunately, labor is still inexpensive there, and the old method of cutting off vines at the ground still works well.
> Long term, this problem with vines reminds us of the need to look at forest management practices closer. With selective cutting, the canopy covers over quicker and vines seldom gain the upper hand. Clear cutting encourages a thriving vine culture before the seedlings become established. Grazing animals control some vines in clearings. Let's ask that old farmer what he does to control vines instead of that Harvard grad.:-)

As we have been discussing thepossible value of bamboo over trees because of its rapid growth and
straightness, I wonder if we could suggest the same for vines. Cut through
at the bottom - then after death and drying, it should be able to be pulled

down and might (?) make a good substitute for fuel from trees. The (more
valuable) trees survive and cooking is (hypothetically) easier and cheaper.

I hope Dr. Karve or other botanist on the list can comment.

Ron

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Aug 20 04:38:12 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Use of vines as a biomsas resource?
In-Reply-To: <9a.2a55b298.2a938cec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020820113854.GB4136@cybershamanix.com>

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 08:15:40AM -0400, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:

(snip)

> >Once a plant thrives, it spreads an overabundance of seed, and tends to
> take advantage of it's dominance. The vine that is most troublesome here
> lately is poison ivy. Once sprayed with a vengeance, it is now protected as a
> food source for migrating birds. Enough is enough. I have seen little kids
> loose much of their summer to hospital trips, rashes and itching. I find it
> in every landscape, even at shopping malls growing hidden in bushes like a
> stalker. Hard to kill the ivy without killing the shrub.
> >When poison ivy was lacking as a native plant, most fields were mowed and
> sprayed. Highway rights of way, once sprayed, are now havens for this plague.

Hoboy! Let's just poison the whole damn planet and be done with it once and
for all, eh? What a sick bunch the human race is --

> If you drive locally in the early fall you can see the red leaves covering
> everything. If you burn it, the smoke can be toxic as well. Maybe a good
> choice for an automated high temperature gasifier system.
> > Wild grape is another dominating vine locally. I spend a day a year just
> cutting it on my farm lot. Not much heat in that one. Good as a soil
> conditioner because it breaks down quick. Vines in general are natures soil
> builders because they spread like wildfire from places where the soil is
> good, to places it is not. The root systems resemble the vines above. When
> decomposing they rapidly add carbon and humus to the soil. I don't see vines
> as much a problem in good soils as they cannot compete as well here with more
> desirable species.
> > Vines are OK when kept in place, but it is only mans fault that they are
> not. I don't believe global warming can be blamed for this one. As
> environmentalists trash the chemical companies for destroying the earth, let
> me put in a good word for Monsanto's Roundup. I can use it like a paintbrush
> to kill what I want, as deep or shallow as I want. Within a short time, no
> residue exists to pollute. Even using dirty water as a carrier can break
> this chemical down prematurely. The best news is that with the patents on
> the first formulation expired, the price is coming down and generic versions
> are coming out.

I pray a curse of cancer on every person working for Monsanto or DOW and
those who use their poisons.

> > Unfortunately, Roundup is still too expensive for third world use, where
> it is needed.

Yeah, right, just like they needed Nestle's baby formula, eh?

> Fortunately, labor is still inexpensive there, and the old
> method of cutting off vines at the ground still works well.
> > Long term, this problem with vines reminds us of the need to look at
> forest management practices closer. With selective cutting, the canopy
> covers over quicker and vines seldom gain the upper hand. Clear cutting
> encourages a thriving vine culture before the seedlings become established.
> Grazing animals control some vines in clearings. Let's ask that old farmer
> what he does to control vines instead of that Harvard grad.:-)
>
You mean the chemically dependant idiot parasites who have gone bankrupt
listening to the ag-industry and are constantly begging for more farm welfare
and higher crop price subsidies?

(snip)

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Aug 20 06:06:16 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Use of vines as a biomsas resource?
In-Reply-To: <9a.2a55b298.2a938cec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020820130657.GB5146@cybershamanix.com>

I think you need to re-read my comments -- where do you get the idea that I
was in anyway commenting on Ron's idea to use vines for biomass? I think that's
a great idea. Dan, however, thinks that we should poison the vines rather than
use them for biomass -- an absolutely absurd idea.

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 07:51:56AM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
> Dear Harmon:
>
> I thought Ron and Dan's comments on vines were intersting and instructive.
> I thought your comments on their comments were odius and obnoxious.
> However, we try to keep this an open friendly forum, so I won't yell at you
> if you don't yell at the rest of us.
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED GASIFICATION LIST MODERATOR
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> To: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
> Cc: <ronallarson@qwest.net>; <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 5:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Use of vines as a biomsas resource?
>
>
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 08:15:40AM -0400, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> > > >Once a plant thrives, it spreads an overabundance of seed, and tends
> to
> > > take advantage of it's dominance. The vine that is most troublesome here
> > > lately is poison ivy. Once sprayed with a vengeance, it is now protected
> as a
> > > food source for migrating birds. Enough is enough. I have seen little
> kids
> > > loose much of their summer to hospital trips, rashes and itching. I find
> it
> > > in every landscape, even at shopping malls growing hidden in bushes like
> a
> > > stalker. Hard to kill the ivy without killing the shrub.
> > > >When poison ivy was lacking as a native plant, most fields were mowed
> and
> > > sprayed. Highway rights of way, once sprayed, are now havens for this
> plague.
> >
> > Hoboy! Let's just poison the whole damn planet and be done with it once
> and
> > for all, eh? What a sick bunch the human race is --
> >
> >
> > > If you drive locally in the early fall you can see the red leaves
> covering
> > > everything. If you burn it, the smoke can be toxic as well. Maybe a
> good
> > > choice for an automated high temperature gasifier system.
> > > > Wild grape is another dominating vine locally. I spend a day a year
> just
> > > cutting it on my farm lot. Not much heat in that one. Good as a soil
> > > conditioner because it breaks down quick. Vines in general are natures
> soil
> > > builders because they spread like wildfire from places where the soil is
> > > good, to places it is not. The root systems resemble the vines above.
> When
> > > decomposing they rapidly add carbon and humus to the soil. I don't see
> vines
> > > as much a problem in good soils as they cannot compete as well here with
> more
> > > desirable species.
> > > > Vines are OK when kept in place, but it is only mans fault that they
> are
> > > not. I don't believe global warming can be blamed for this one. As
> > > environmentalists trash the chemical companies for destroying the earth,
> let
> > > me put in a good word for Monsanto's Roundup. I can use it like a
> paintbrush
> > > to kill what I want, as deep or shallow as I want. Within a short time,
> no
> > > residue exists to pollute. Even using dirty water as a carrier can
> break
> > > this chemical down prematurely. The best news is that with the patents
> on
> > > the first formulation expired, the price is coming down and generic
> versions
> > > are coming out.
> >
> > I pray a curse of cancer on every person working for Monsanto or DOW
> and
> > those who use their poisons.
> >
> >
> > > > Unfortunately, Roundup is still too expensive for third world use,
> where
> > > it is needed.
> >
> > Yeah, right, just like they needed Nestle's baby formula, eh?
> >
> >
> > > Fortunately, labor is still inexpensive there, and the old
> > > method of cutting off vines at the ground still works well.
> > > > Long term, this problem with vines reminds us of the need to look at
> > > forest management practices closer. With selective cutting, the canopy
> > > covers over quicker and vines seldom gain the upper hand. Clear cutting
> > > encourages a thriving vine culture before the seedlings become
> established.
> > > Grazing animals control some vines in clearings. Let's ask that old
> farmer
> > > what he does to control vines instead of that Harvard grad.:-)
> > >
> > You mean the chemically dependant idiot parasites who have gone
> bankrupt
> > listening to the ag-industry and are constantly begging for more farm
> welfare
> > and higher crop price subsidies?
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> > --
> > Harmon Seaver
> > CyberShamanix
> > http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> > >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > >
> > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> > >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
> >
> >
>

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Aug 20 13:37:39 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Fwd: Use of vines as a biomsas resource?
Message-ID: <1a2.747833b.2a94102e@aol.com>

To: tombreed@attbi.com
Subject: Re: Use of vines as a biomsas resource?
From: Carefreeland@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:34:32 EDT
Full-name: Carefreeland
In a message dated 8/20/02 10:00:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tombreed@attbi.com writes:

Dear Harmon:

I thought Ron and Dan's comments on vines were interesting and instructive.
I thought your comments on their comments were odius and obnoxious.
However, we try to keep this an open friendly forum, so I won't yell at you
if you don't yell at the rest of us.

Yours truly, TOM REED

>> Tom, I think it was just misunderstanding. If you have ever handled wild grape vine when dry, it is lighter than willow. On the other hand it is fantastic soil amendment as it breaks down fast. If Harmon wants to heat his house with wild grape or poisen ivy he can do the work and I won't discourage or visit him. It's like playing tug of war with a tree when alive. The fibers are strong and hard to cut. I'd rather burn the oak that I save from vine choking.
>> Grape from a vinyard on the other hand being constantly pruned is much denser. Now that is a possibility for energy production.
Dan Dimiduk

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Aug 20 15:12:27 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: Use of vines as a biomsas resource?
In-Reply-To: <69.2bf2fedf.2a940b98@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020820221311.GB5750@cybershamanix.com>

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 05:16:08PM -0400, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:
(much snipped)
> >>I live with much poisen ivy and also enjoy the birds, that is why I use the
> most benign herbicide on the market

Better check again. Roundup has been banned in Europe and is just about to be
banned in the US. Furthermore, it's made (last I looked) from chlorinated
phenols, which break down into dioxin, especially if heated -- or burned.

> as a labor saving tool and only as
> neeeded. I ate pears today from my backyard which have never been sprayed. I
> am restoring a landfill to woods to support a solar biomass greenhouse.
> >> If you know my work histroy you will know that I have done everything in
> my power to encourage less chemical use, and wise use when resorting to
> drastic measures. I as a professional am the most exposed to chemicals of
> anyone, why would I recommend anything I wouldn't want to use? Most of the
> chemicals in the new classes of pesticide are based on natural organic
> chemistry. Pyrethrine has been used for centurys and comes from a flower.
> >> Most people in this country have eaten soy products and some of that soy
> was harvested with Roundup.

Not for much longer.

> Why cannot biomass be harvested in unique
> situations with Roundup for energy production?

Because it will turn into dioxin.

> Dumping table salt to kill a
> plant does more damage to the environment, not to mention the stove. The
> roundup is to exchange unnatural growth with native species which were
> previously destroyed.
> >> We are trading one scourge (chemicals) for another (guarenteed sickness).
> >
Guaranteed sickness? From poison ivy? Gee, I was just out this afternoon
walking my dogs and hunting for mushrooms in a woods absolutely thick with
poison ivy. I walk thru it constantly -- and wearing shorts, totally open thong
sandals with no socks, and a tanktop. My dogs roll in it, I lift them up into
the truck afterwards.
I do this very, very often, starting in early Spring looking for
morels. Well, I probably have long pants and boots then, but all Summer it's
just shorts and sandals. When I was a kid I used to get poison ivy, pretty
badly, but I seem to have lost the sensitivity, maybe because I'm in it so
much. OTOH, I'm very sensitive to herbicides and other ag chemicals -- just
walking down the aisle at FleetFarm where they are on the shelf makes me feel
sick and dizzy. Same with my wife. We were poisoned, pretty much deliberately,
by the USFS in retribution for all the bad publicity we caused for their
spraying program in the Nat'l Forest. They were only legally able to use 2,4-D
at the time, but people heard them bragging that they'd used the banned 2,4,5-T
on us.
I'll take the poison ivy anytime. Their are no "bad" plants. Poisons are
evil. If you really think you need a spraying solution, try acetic acid.

(more snipped)
>
>
> > > > Unfortunately, Roundup is still too expensive for third world use,
> > where
> > > it is needed.
> >
> > Yeah, right, just like they needed Nestle's baby formula, eh?
> >
> >> I won't even stoop that low. I've heard that story.
>

Well, people trying to promote chemical agriculture in the Third World are
doing exactly the same thing. There's no difference.

> >
> > > Fortunately, labor is still inexpensive there, and the old
> > > method of cutting off vines at the ground still works well.
> > > > Long term, this problem with vines reminds us of the need to look at
> > > forest management practices closer. With selective cutting, the canopy
> > > covers over quicker and vines seldom gain the upper hand. Clear cutting
> > > encourages a thriving vine culture before the seedlings become
> > established.
> > > Grazing animals control some vines in clearings. Let's ask that old
> > farmer
> > > what he does to control vines instead of that Harvard grad.:-)
> > >
> > You mean the chemically dependant idiot parasites who have gone
> > bankrupt
> > listening to the ag-industry and are constantly begging for more farm
> > welfare
> > and higher crop price subsidies?
> >
> > (snip)
> > >> No, I mean :The farmer who knows how to sustainably maintain his land
> > for his offspring weather large or small. The farmer who has more invested
> > in keeping the world well fed than anyone. When is the last time you were
> > hungry? The farmer that has more to loose than a piece of paper saying what
> > he worked for. The farmer that is the target of land grabbers, politicians,
> > changes in climate, natural events, and any of the first which use the
> > second to take advantage of the oppertunity caused by the third and fourth.
> >

Well, yes, there are organic farmers, but they don't use Roundup -- the rest
deserve to lose their land ASAP. They are poisoning the holy Earth, they are
poisoning the people who buy the food they grow, and at the same time they are
sucking at the public tit, constantly crying for more, and are nothing but
thieves and parasites. Not that the politicians who give them their welfare
payments aren't just as bad, mind you.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Aug 20 16:14:17 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:01 2004
Subject: FYI: Roundup
Message-ID: <20020820231501.GC5750@cybershamanix.com>

http://metalab.unc.edu/london/pesticide-education/NCAMP.RoundUp.information

Ten reasons to NOT use Roundup

Compiled by Caroline Cox, Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to
Pesticides- (NCAP)

Roundup, and related herbicides with glyphosate as an active
ingredient, are advertised as products that can "eradicate weeds and
unwanted grasses effectively with a high level of environmental
safety." However, an independent, accurate evaluation of their health
and environmental hazards can draw conclusions very different from
those presented in the ads. Consider these facts:

1. Glyphosate can be persistent. In tests conducted by Monsanto,
manufacturer of glyphosate-containing herbicides, up to 140 days were
required for half of the applied glyphosate to break down or
disappear from agricultural soils. At harvest, residues of glyphosate
were found in lettuce, carrots, and barley planted one year after
glyphosate treatment.

2. Glyphosate can drift. Test conducted by the University of
California, Davis, found that glyphosate drifted up to 400 meters
(1300 feet) durng ground applications and 800 meters 12600 feet)
during aerial applications.

3. Glyphosate is acutely toxic to humans. Ingesting about 3/4 of a
cup can be lethal. Symptoms include eye and skin irritation, lung
congestion, and erosion of the intestinal tract. Between 1984 and
1990 in California, glyphosate was the third most frequently reported
cause of illness related to agricultural pesticide use.

4. Glyphosate has shown a wide spectrum of chronic toxicity in
laboratory tests. The National Toxicology Program found that chronic
feeding of glyphosate caused salivary gland lesions, reduced sperm
counts, and a lengthened estrous cycle (how often an individual comes
into heat). Other chronic effects found in laboratory tests include
an increase in the frequency of lethal mutations in fruit flies, an
increase in frequency of pancreas and liver tumors in male rats along
with an increase in the frequency of thyroid tumors in females, and
cataracts. (The fruit fly study used Roundup; the other studies used
glyphosate.)

5. Roundup contains toxic trade secret ingredients. These include
polyethoxylated tallowamines, causing nausea and diarrhea, and
isopropylamine, causing chemical pneumonia, laryngitis, headache, and
burns.

6. Roundup kills beneficial insects. Tests conducted by the
International Organization for Biological Control showed that Roundup
caused mortality of live beneficial species: a Thrichogramma, a
predatory mite, a lacewing, a ladybug, and a predatory beetle.

7. Glyphosate is hazardous to earthworms, Tests using New Zealand's
most common earthworm showed that glyphosate, in amounts as low as
1/20 of standard application rates, reduced its growth and slowed its
development.

8. Roundup inhibits mycorrhizal fungi. Canadian studies have shown
that as little as 1 part per million of Roundup can reduce the growth
or colonization of mycorrhizal fungi.

9. Glyphosate reduces nitrogen fixation. Amounts as small as 2 parts
per million have had significant effects, and effects have been
measured up to 120 days after treatment. Nitrogen-fixing bacteria
shown to be impacted by glyphosate include a species found on
soybeans and several species found on clover.

10. Roundup can increase the spread or severity of plant diseases.
Treatment with roundup increased the severity of Rhizoctonia root rot
in barley, increased the amount and growth of take-all fungus, a
wheat disease, and reduced the ability of bean plants to defend
themselves against anthracnose.

These facts about Roundup are taken from a two-part article about the
health and environmental hazards of glyphosate published in NCAP's
Journal of Pesticide Reform. Copies of the article, with complete
references for all of .the information presented, are available from
NCAP for $2.00. NCAP, PO Box 1391, Eugene, OR 97440; (541) 344-5044.

There is superior documentation on Roundup, both its toxicology and
ecological effects, available from the Northwest Coalition for
Alternatives to Pesticides, P.O. Box 1393, Eugene, OR 97440,
(503)344-5044.

Two articles authored by Caroline Cox: - "Glyphosate, Part 1:
Toxicology," Journal of Pesticide Reform, Fall, 1995, Vol. 15, No. 3.
- "Glyphosate, Part 2: Human Exposure and Ecological Effects,"
Winter, 1995, Vol. 15, No. 4. Over 100 references are cited.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/Monsanto/glyphocancer.cfm

New Study Links Monsanto's Roundup to Cancer

PRESS RELEASE - 22 JUNE

A recent study by eminent oncologists Dr. Lennart Hardell and Dr.
Mikael Eriksson of Sweden [1], has revealed clear links between one
of the world's biggest selling herbicide, glyphosate, to
non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a form of cancer [2].

In the study published in the 15 March 1999 Journal of American
Cancer Society, the researchers also maintain that exposure to
glyphosate 'yielded increased risks for NHL.' They stress that with
the rapidly increasing use of glyphosate since the time the study was
carried out, 'glyphosate deserves further epidemiologic studies.'

Glyphosate, commonly known as Roundup, is the world's most widely
used herbicide. It is estimated that for 1998, over a 112,000 tonnes
of glyphosate was used world-wide. It indiscriminately kills off a
wide variety of weeds after application and is primarily used to
control annual and perennial plants.

71% of genetically engineered crops planted in 1998 are designed to
be resistant to herbicides such as glyphosate, marketed by Monsanto
as Roundup. Companies developing herbicide resistant crops are also
increasing
their production capacity for the herbicides such as glyphosate, and
also requesting permits for higher residues of these chemicals in
genetically engineered food. For example, Monsanto have already
received permits for a threefold increase in herbicide residues on
genetically engineered soybeans
in Europe and the U.S., up from 6 parts per million (PPM) to 20 PPM.

According to Sadhbh O' Neill of Genetic Concern, 'this study
reinforces concerns by environmentalists and health professionals
that far from reducing herbicide use, glyphosate resistant crops may
result in increased residues to which we as consumers will be exposed
in our food.'

'Increased residues of glyphosate and its metabolites are already on
sale via genetically engineered soya, common in processed foods.
However no studies of the effects of GE soya sprayed with Roundup on
health have been carried out either on animals or humans to date,'
she continued.

The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) statistics from
1997 show that expanded plantings of Roundup Ready soybeans (i.e.
soybeans genetically engineered to be tolerant to the herbicide)
resulted in a 72% increase in the use of glyphosate. According to the
Pesticides Action Network, scientists estimate that plants
genetically engineered to be herbicide resistant will actually triple
the amount of herbicides used. Farmers, knowing that their crop can
tolerate or resist being killed off by
the herbicides, will tend to use them more liberally.

O' Neill concluded: 'The EPA when authorising Monsanto's field trials
for Roundup-ready sugar beet did not consider the issue of
glyphosate. They considered this to be the remit of the Pesticides
Control Service of the Department of Agriculture. Thus nobody has
included the effects of increasing the use of glyphosate in the
risk/benefit analysis carried out. It is yet another example of how
regulatory authorities supposedly protecting public health have
failed to implement the 'precautionary principle' with respect to
GMOs.'

ENDS

Further information: Sadhbh O' Neill at 01-4760360 or 087-2258599 or
(home) 01-6774052
Notes

[1] Lennart Hardell, M.D., PhD. Department of Oncology, Orebro
Medical Centre, Orebro, Sweden and Miikael Eriksson, M.D., PhD,
Department of Oncology, University Hospital, Lund, Sweden, 'A
Case-Control Study of Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma and Exposure to
Pesticides', Cancer, March 15, 1999/ Volume 85/ Number 6.

The findings are based on a population-based case-control study
conducted in Sweden between 1987 - 1990. The necessary data was
ascertained by a series of comprehensive questionnaires and follow-up
telephone interviews. Dr. Hardell and Dr. Eriksson found that
'exposure to herbicides and fungicides resulted in significantly
increased risks for NHL'.

[2] Lymphoma is a form of cancer that afflicts the lymphatic system.
It can occur at virtually any part of the body but the initial
symptoms are usually seen as swellings around the lymph nodes at the
base of the neck. There are basically two main kinds of lymphoma,
i.e. Hodgkin's disease and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

The incidence of NHL has increased rapidly in most Western countries
over the last few decades. According to the American Cancer Society,
there has been an alarming 80% increase in incidences of NHL since
the early 1970's.

http://www.greenpeace.org/~usa/reports/biodiversity/glyp.html
"Greenpeace Report - Not Ready for Roundup: Glyphosate Fact Sheet"

Human Toxicity

Because the shikimic acid pathway does not exist in animals, the
acute toxicity of glyphosate is very low. Glyphosate can interfere
with some enzyme functions in animals but symptoms of poisoning are
only seen at very high doses. However, products containing glyphosate
also contain other compounds which can be toxic. In particular most
contain surfactants known as polyoxyethyleneamines (POEA). Some of
these are much more toxic than glyphosate. These account for problems
associated with worker exposure. They are serious irritants of the
respiratory tract, eyes and skin and are contaminated with dioxane
(not dioxin) which is a suspected carcinogen. Some are toxic to fish.

In California, glyphosate is the third most commonly-reported cause
of pesticide related illness among agricultural workers. Glyphosate
is the most frequent cause of complaints to the UK's Health and
Safety Executive's Pesticides Incident Appraisal Panel. New
formulations, with less irritating surfactants, have been developed
by Monsanto (e.g. Roundup Biactive), but cheaper, older preparations
are still available.

Environmental Toxicity

Glyphosate is one of the most toxic herbicides, with many species of
wild plants being damaged or killed by applications of less than 10
micrograms per plant. Glyphosate can be more damaging to wild flora
than many other herbicides, as aerial spraying with glyphosate can
give average drifts of 1200 to 2500 feet and ground spraying with
glyphosate may cause damage to sensitive plants up to 300 feet from
the field sprayed. Glyphosate use is thought to affect hedgerow
trees, causing die-back, and may reduce trees' winter hardiness and
resistance to fungal disease

The direct toxicity of glyphosate to mammals and birds is low.
However, its effect on flora can have a damaging effect on mammals
and birds through habitat destruction. The US EPA concluded that many
endangered species of plants, as well as the Houston toad, may be at
risk from glyphosate use.

Fish and invertebrates are more sensitive to formulations of
glyphosate. As with humans, the surfactants are responsible for much
of the harm . Toxicity is increased with higher water temperatures,
and pH. In Australia, guidelines state that most formulations of
glyphosate should not be used in or near water because of their toxic
effects on tadpoles and adult frogs. The newer, non-irritant
formulations such as Roundup Biactive are not included in this advice.

Of nine herbicides tested for their toxicity to soil microorganisms,
glyphosate was found to be the second most toxic to a range of
bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes and yeasts. However, when glyphosate
comes into contact with the soil it rapidly binds to soil particles
and is inactivated. Unbound glyphosate is degraded by bacteria. Low
activity because of binding to soil particles suggests that
glyphosate's effects on soil flora will be limited. However, some
recent work shows that glyphosate can be readily released from
certain types of soil particles, and therefore may leach into water
or be taken up by plants.

http://www.pesticide.org/gly.pdf
Journal Of Pesticide Reform/ Fall 1998, Vol.18, No. 3
Updated 1/02
Glyphosate (Roundup)
Herbicide Factsheet

Laboratory studies have found adverse effects in all standard
categories of laboratory toxicology testing. These include
medium-term toxicity (salivary gland lesions), long-term toxicity
(inflamed stomach linings), genetic damage (in human blood cells),
effects on reproduction (reduced sperm counts in rats; increased
frequency of abnormal sperm in rabbits), and carcinogenicity
(increased frequency of liver tumors in male rats and thyroid cancer
in female rats). In studies of people (mostly farmers) exposed to
glyphosate herbicides, exposure is associated with an increased risk
of miscarriages, premature birth, and the cancer non-Hodgkin's
lymphoma.

http://www.love.telinco.co.uk/Monsanto/Products/roundup.htm
Roudup:- Monsanto's Best Selling Herbicide
Some Health Consequences of Roundup Poisoning

Increased use of the chemical poses numerous health and ecological
risks. Roundup is known to cause a variety of often serious health
problems. Symptoms of acute poisoning in humans following ingestion
of Roundup include gastrointestinal pain, vomiting, swelling of the
lungs, pneumonia, clouding of consciosness, and destruction of red
blood cells. Eye and skin irritation has been reported by workers
mixing, loading and applying glyphosate.

A series of suicides and attempted suicides in Japan during the
1980's using Roundup herbicide allowed scientists to calculate a
lethal dose of six ounces. The herbicide is 100 times more toxic to
fish than people, toxic to earthworms, soil bacteria and beneficial
fungi. Breakdown of glyphosate into N-nitrosoglyphosate and other
related compounds has heightened concerns about the possible
carcinogenicity of Roundup products.1

A 1993 study at the University of California at Berkeley's School of
Public Health found that glyphosate was the most common cause of
pesticide related illness among landscape maintenance workers in
California, and the number three cause among agricultural workers.2 A
1996 review of the scientific literature by members of the Vermont
Citizens Forest Roundtable- a group which successfully lobbied the
Vermont Legislature for a statewide ban on the use of herbicides in
forestry- revealed updated evidence of lung damage, heart
palpitations, nausea, reproductive problems, chromosone aberrations
and numerous other effects of exposure to Roundup Herbicide3

Taken from an article by Brian Tokar

References

1. Carolyn Cox, "Glyphosate Fact Sheet," Journal of Pesticide
Reform, Volume 11, No 2, Spring 1991.
2. Carolyn Cox, "Glyphosate, Part 2: Human Exposure and
Ecological Effects," Journal of Pesticide Reform, Volume 15, No.4
Fall 1995.
3. Sylvia Knight, "Glyphosate, Roundup and Other Herbicides- An
Annotated Bibliography," Vermont Citizens Forest Roundtable, January
1996.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Aug 20 19:09:58 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Use of vines as a biomsas resource?
In-Reply-To: <20020821022337.HLGP25423.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@[10.137.100.61]>
Message-ID: <20020821021043.GA6149@cybershamanix.com>

On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 02:23:37AM +0000, andrew. heggie @ dtn. ntl. com wrote:
> >
> > From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 05:16:08PM -0400, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:
> > (much snipped)
> > > >>I live with much poisen ivy and also enjoy the birds, that is why I use the
> > > most benign herbicide on the market
> >
> > Better check again. Roundup has been banned in Europe and is just about to be
> > banned in the US. Furthermore, it's made (last I looked) from chlorinated
> > phenols, which break down into dioxin, especially if heated -- or burned.
>
> Harmon, I agree with your comments on list management( and am acutely worried about html and excessive quoting overflowing my mailbox while I have no pop3 access), I sympathise with your overall views on excessive herbicide use but I disagree with your condemnation of glyphosate as a herbicide rather than its significance to monsanto's profits. Whilst its breakdown products do remain in the soil and may cause long term problems the direct effects are very low to animal life. It is of course one of the most toxic chemicals to plants. It is not banned in UK and has a wider clearance than most chemicals. I believe you may be confusing it with 245t which is banned and is a polychlorinated organic chemical.

You're right, I mispoke on Roundup being a chlorinated phenol, like 2,4-D and
2,4,5-T. However, if you read the stuff on Roundup I sent previously, you'll
notice that it was announced just a month or two ago about it's direct link with
cancer. At the time that came out there was another article with it saying that
Roundup was already banned in at least parts of Europe and was headed for the
same fate in the US.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Aug 20 23:31:24 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Fwd: FYI: Roundup
Message-ID: <121.15896f06.2a949b3e@aol.com>

To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: FYI: Roundup
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:15:01 -0500
Delivered-To: mailing list stoves@crest.org
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
Mailing-List: contact stoves-help@crest.org; run by ezmlm
User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i

http://metalab.unc.edu/london/pesticide-education/NCAMP.RoundUp.information

Ten reasons to NOT use Roundup

Compiled by Caroline Cox, Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to
Pesticides- (NCAP)

8. Roundup inhibits mycorrhizal fungi. Canadian studies have shown
that as little as 1 part per million of Roundup can reduce the growth
or colonization of mycorrhizal fungi.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/Monsanto/glyphocancer.cfm

New Study Links Monsanto's Roundup to Cancer

PRESS RELEASE - 22 JUNE

ENDS

Further information: Sadhbh O' Neill at 01-4760360 or 087-2258599 or
(home) 01-6774052
Notes

http://www.greenpeace.org/~usa/reports/biodiversity/glyp.html
"Greenpeace Report - Not Ready for Roundup: Glyphosate Fact Sheet"

Human Toxicity

Environmental Toxicity

http://www.pesticide.org/gly.pdf
Journal Of Pesticide Reform/ Fall 1998, Vol.18, No. 3
Updated 1/02
Glyphosate (Roundup)
Herbicide Factsheet

http://www.love.telinco.co.uk/Monsanto/Products/roundup.htm
Roudup:- Monsanto's Best Selling Herbicide
Some Health Consequences of Roundup Poisoning

Taken from an article by Brian Tokar

References

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Aug 20 23:41:54 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Fwd: FYI: Roundup (and risks)
Message-ID: <18c.ccb998b.2a949db5@aol.com>

To: hseaver@cybershamanix.com
Subject: Re: FYI: Roundup (and risks)
From: Carefreeland@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 03:28:36 EDT
Full-name: Carefreeland

Harmon,
OK, you take the poison Ivy since you are blessed not to be allergic
to it. I am as well. Just a little rash on broken skin is the worst I've had
in years.
For those persons like my wife and daughter who after years of
exposure still come down with serious symptoms, I believe that the risks of
roundup are much less. Usually she gets it from secondary exposure to my
clothes. Or just being in the area of it when it is most active like this
time of year.
If you read those reports you sent, it is the carrier in the old
formulation which has had the problem with dioxin. As does many chemicals
made in the last 100 years. If you use old steel you are using metal often
machined with lubricants and cooling fluids containing PCB's-how far do you
want to stretch this?
Everyday I take a risk while walking through the woods that a tree
will fall on my head. I know of a case where a young boy was killed that way
on school property. I am doing lot clearing to salvage biomass energy, and I
think the chainsaw related risks are a bigger worry. Using the automobile is
the greatest risk we face everyday -- do you still drive? Or cross the road
for that matter?
Many natural chemicals, plants and animals are also very toxic or
dangerous. How about the persons who die from a bee sting? We have
copperheads, brown recluse and black widow spiders, rabies, and tetanus all
waiting to kill us every day.
How about natural toxins in meat and poultry? Salmonella is nothing
to sneeze at. Are you a vegetarian? OK, what about toxins in molds and
fungi? What do you drink? Radioactive particles still circle the earth from
nuke tests years ago and settle everywhere. Then again, volcanos also emit
many of the same particles. If you go into a basement, you are exposed to
radon gas.
How many of those guys listed as having stomach problems from roundup
simply forgot to eat breakfast or drink water in the hot sun? I have run a
landscape business for 22 years and my workers have done pretty stupid
things. Usually the stomach problems are the result of a hangover. How many
toxic chemicals are in alcoholic beverages? I have respiratory problem
walking through a field of pollinating grasses, yet I mow grass for a living.

Life is a balance of risks, and most of them we are unaware of. Every
one is allergic to something -- for me it is of all things, wild morning
glory. People have been dying of cancer for eternity, most of it not
diagnosed until recently. I will be the first to agree that mans chemical
exposure has been excessive over the last 100 years
My dad died at 46 of a heart attack, probably caused by bad eating
habits while growing up as a poor child. Being poor carries a great risk. My
Dad was a chemist in the service, exposed to the worst of the worst
chemicals, was that what killed him?
Maybe you missed Tom Reeds mention of chimney sweeps and the
relationship to cancer from natural woodstove tars. How much of the world
breathes them?
Thank you for the excellent information not found on the Roundup
Label.
What I want to know, is what you will do as you get on in life and the
doctor starts to prescribe all of those drugs with multiple side effects? Is
it easier to just be in pain or die? Your choice. I don't think anybody
would use anything "unnatural" if it didn't have a benefit.
If you want to cut every tree and pull every weed by hand that is your
choice, I would go broke trying to make a living that way. For those of us
that are trying to get through life with a minimum of risk for the
effort-roundup still looks like a good alternative. Much better than the 2,
4, D, I would otherwise use. (and still do) Much better than the DDT (now
banned) my father used on his house when my sister was stung by a scorpion in
Texas. Better than the chlordane (now banned) still keeping many houses from
falling from termite damage. Much better than silvex (now banned), diazanon,
dursban (on their way out), and many other chemicals I have used over my
lifetime.
I would like greenpeace to tell me how to live my life with less risks
while sharing the planet with about 6 billion people. They are quick to
criticise without suggesting a better alternative which is as effective.
What is a safe lifestyle?
I have worked on the first water wellfield protection ordinance in
the country out of the same concerns you have Harmon. My concern was the
millions of gallons of untreated toxic PCB's, Dioxin, and other industrial
pollutants landfilled right in my home town. Those chemicals were used to
make your car, build the cash register you put your money into everyday,
even make the pop top can that you recycle. How about that computer you are
using? Was it made from natural materials?
I don't want your pollution in my drinking water so I did something
about it. Tell us how you avoid these chemicals in your life. Just do it in
another forum so those who focus on biomass energy can keep finding safer
ways to cook and heat.
Good luck and thank you for informing us,
Daniel Dimiduk

From tombreed at attbi.com Wed Aug 21 10:30:49 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Fw: AAC in USA
Message-ID: <000801c24940$93f33780$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Dean and all:

I inquired about the "floating concrete" with my friend Axel Weber in
Germany and he sent me the following. Apparently the
bricks are "autoclaved aerated concrete". This suggests a mixing process in
which air is dissolved into the concrete in an autoclave and the pressure is
released to form bubbles.

I don't know if you could aerate concrete - might require a small amount of
gluten or other chemical to hold the bubbles, but I doubt if you want a high
pressure process. Maybe CO2 bubbles could be incorporated from baking soda
and vinegar added later. Sounds like a little experimentation could make a
nifty insulation product.

What is the highest temperature that concrete can stand before it begins to
break down?

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Weber-WTM" <Weber-WTM@t-online.de>
To: "Thomas B Reed (E-Mail)" <tombreed@attbi.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:07 AM
Subject: WG: AAC in USA

>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Adele.Reggiori@ytong.com [mailto:Adele.Reggiori@ytong.com]Im
> Auftrag von International@ytong.com
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. August 2002 13:56
> An: weber-wtm@t-online.de
> Betreff: AAC in USA
>
>
> Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC) in USA
>
> Dear Sir:
>
> Thank you for your interest in YTONG products.
>
> The YTONG plant in Haines City, Florida is not in operation at present.
We
> do not know whether the owner, Readymix Industries Atlanta, intends to
> resume production.
>
> You can get AAC products from the following manufacturers:
>
> BABB INTERNATIONAL - HEBEL
> PAAC DIVISION
> 6600 Highlands Parkway
> Smyrna, GA 30082
>
> bp@babb.com
> 770-308-1500 Bob Phillips
> www.babb.com/aac
>
> ACCO Aerated Concrete Systems, Inc.
> 3351 West Orange Blossom Trail
> Apopka, FL 32712
>
> aacinfo@accoac.com
> 1-888-901-ACCO(2226) - FAX 407-884-5111
> www.acco-aac.com
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
> YTONG International GmbH
> Hornstr. 3, 80797 München, Germany
> Tel. (++49.89) 306 14 112
> Fax (++49.89) 306 14 117
> international@ytong.com
> www.ytong.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Aug 21 10:49:23 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Gasify junk and vines Re: Use of vines as a biomsas resource?
In-Reply-To: <9a.2a55b298.2a938cec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1029955695.3d63e06f11210@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

I will try to find here in Africa some vines to burn in my Juntos gasifier
stove. My success today burning TRUE JUNK LITTER biomass in Mozambique makes
me optimistic that dried vines can burn very well. We picked up a variety of
dry reeds and cane stalks and coconut husks and fronds from the side of the
path, chopped them some with a dull machete, and put them in a "first day of
use" gasifier. The tin-smith and friends were amazed at how well it burned.
(by the way, to top-light it, the tin-smith used very successfully a blow-torch
made from an old military flame thrower.) (something like "swords to
plowshears" would be "flame-throwers to stove lighters")

Concerning poison ivy, I do not have any here, but perhaps in October back in
the USA I could try to gasify some. I know it is dangerous to burn, but if it
is gasifierd with no visible smoke (the smoke is "burned"), it MIGHT be a fuel
under careful circumstances. I will raise this issue of testing with Tami Bond
to "test" the burning of poison ivy some day.

Here in Africa I can not read ALL of the e-mail, so I miss some messages. If
it is critical that I see a reply, please send a duplicate to my personal
address (as well as to the stoves list.)

Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(In Mozambique until early October)

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu

From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Aug 21 12:10:58 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Cleaning up clouds
In-Reply-To: <000001c24516$ea09c0e0$8e9ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <1029960592.3d63f39013998@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

A.D. (and stover to help)

How can I get two of these cookers, one to the USA and one to South Africa?
Anyone travelling from India to these places and willing to carry one?

(I think my credit is good with A.D. for US$20 plus something for the package
carriers, so if a chance opens up to do this, please take action. Once the
goods are in the USA, delivery there is an easy matter.)

I believe that the Juntos gasifier will be a viable heat source for this type
of cooking, and I would like to test it.

Thanks,

Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(In Mozambique until early October)

Quoting Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>:

> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 04:23:35PM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> > In charcoal burning stoves, the fire does not have to be continuously
> > tended. In the stove-and-cooker configuration that we are trying to
> > popularise among the urban poor, the cooker accepts three pots, one
> holding
> > rice, another holding beans or meat and the third holding vegetables. The
> > pots sit one on top of the other. The housewife lights char briquettes in
> > the stove below the cooker and once the fire gets going, she can even go
> out
> > of the house and come back after about an hour. The briquettes would
> have
> > burnt out by this time, but she gets a cooked hot meal. Because the
> cooker
> > cooks using steam, there is no danger of the meal getting burned (unless
> she
> > puts too little water in the cooker). The cooker has a double wall with a
> > gap of about 6 mm between the cooker and the outer jacket. The assembly
> has
> > been so designed, that the flue gases have to pass through this gap. 100
> g
> > char briquettes can cook a meal for five persons. A housewife using a
> > traditional wood burning stove and cooking each item separately, would
> > require about 3 kg wood to cook the same amount of food. The stove is
> made
> > of mild steel, but the cooker, the outer jacket and the pots inside the
> > cooker are all made of stainless steel. We are offering the
> stove-and-cooker
> > assembly for Rs. 500 (US$10) each. The cost is so low, that people just
> > cannot resist buying it, and they then become permanent customers of our
> > char briquettes! :-)
>
> Sounds neat! Do you have pictures of it on the web? How big and heavy is
> it?
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
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> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu

From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Aug 21 12:20:35 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Stovers at Jo-burg Summit
Message-ID: <1029961170.3d63f5d3000c8@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

We are fast approaching a potentially great gathering for some Stovers.

If you are in South Africa in the coming week, please call me at any time on my
South Africa cell phone number as of Saturday: 083-542-4949 and my wife is
at 072-222-7112

I will be trying to find Charlie Gay and Ron Larson on Monday (Please call me
to give directions) and I will be at the HEDON meetings on Tues and Wed.

I will probably see Crispin and will see John Davies on Saturday, and I would
like to have contact with anyone else.

Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(In Mozambique until early October)

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Aug 21 12:33:48 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Fw: AAC in USA
In-Reply-To: <000801c24940$93f33780$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <20020821193337.GA8946@cybershamanix.com>

This is pretty common and easy to make, although perhaps what you have is a
more advanced form. At any rate, take a look at this site for various "air
entraining agents" for concrete. You also want to mix perlite or vermiculite
with it.

http://www.perlite.info/hbk/0034701.html

On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 12:28:41PM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
> Dear Dean and all:
>
> I inquired about the "floating concrete" with my friend Axel Weber in
> Germany and he sent me the following. Apparently the
> bricks are "autoclaved aerated concrete". This suggests a mixing process in
> which air is dissolved into the concrete in an autoclave and the pressure is
> released to form bubbles.
>
> I don't know if you could aerate concrete - might require a small amount of
> gluten or other chemical to hold the bubbles, but I doubt if you want a high
> pressure process. Maybe CO2 bubbles could be incorporated from baking soda
> and vinegar added later. Sounds like a little experimentation could make a
> nifty insulation product.
>
> What is the highest temperature that concrete can stand before it begins to
> break down?
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Weber-WTM" <Weber-WTM@t-online.de>
> To: "Thomas B Reed (E-Mail)" <tombreed@attbi.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:07 AM
> Subject: WG: AAC in USA
>
>
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Adele.Reggiori@ytong.com [mailto:Adele.Reggiori@ytong.com]Im
> > Auftrag von International@ytong.com
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. August 2002 13:56
> > An: weber-wtm@t-online.de
> > Betreff: AAC in USA
> >
> >
> > Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC) in USA
> >
> > Dear Sir:
> >
> > Thank you for your interest in YTONG products.
> >
> > The YTONG plant in Haines City, Florida is not in operation at present.
> We
> > do not know whether the owner, Readymix Industries Atlanta, intends to
> > resume production.
> >
> > You can get AAC products from the following manufacturers:
> >
> > BABB INTERNATIONAL - HEBEL
> > PAAC DIVISION
> > 6600 Highlands Parkway
> > Smyrna, GA 30082
> >
> > bp@babb.com
> > 770-308-1500 Bob Phillips
> > www.babb.com/aac
> >
> > ACCO Aerated Concrete Systems, Inc.
> > 3351 West Orange Blossom Trail
> > Apopka, FL 32712
> >
> > aacinfo@accoac.com
> > 1-888-901-ACCO(2226) - FAX 407-884-5111
> > www.acco-aac.com
> >
> > Sincerely yours,
> >
> > YTONG International GmbH
> > Hornstr. 3, 80797 München, Germany
> > Tel. (++49.89) 306 14 112
> > Fax (++49.89) 306 14 117
> > international@ytong.com
> > www.ytong.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From woolsey at netins.net Wed Aug 21 12:49:32 2002
From: woolsey at netins.net (Edward Woolsey)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Cleaning up clouds
In-Reply-To: <1029960592.3d63f39013998@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <002101c24954$b049c3e0$67168ea7@ed>

Howdy:
Is anyone planning to take any of these stoves to the conference in Boise,
Idaho?
I don't seem to see any for sale in the US. I'd love to have a couple to
play with and use.
Any suppliers?

Thanks Much,
Ed Woolsey
Iowa

Subject: Re: Cleaning up clouds

A.D. (and stover to help)

How can I get two of these cookers, one to the USA and one to South Africa?
Anyone travelling from India to these places and willing to carry one?

(I think my credit is good with A.D. for US$20 plus something for the
package
carriers, so if a chance opens up to do this, please take action. Once the
goods are in the USA, delivery there is an easy matter.)

I believe that the Juntos gasifier will be a viable heat source for this
type
of cooking, and I would like to test it.

Thanks,

Paul
--

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Aug 21 14:07:32 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Cleaning up clouds
In-Reply-To: <1029960592.3d63f39013998@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <20020821210813.GB8946@cybershamanix.com>

Yes, me too. I'll definitely buy one if I can -- the shipping from India
can't be that great, we've been buying antique enamelware on ebay from Europe,
the postage isn't that outrageous.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 03:52:38PM -0500, Edward Woolsey wrote:
> Howdy:
> Is anyone planning to take any of these stoves to the conference in Boise,
> Idaho?
> I don't seem to see any for sale in the US. I'd love to have a couple to
> play with and use.
> Any suppliers?
>
> Thanks Much,
> Ed Woolsey
> Iowa
>
>
> Subject: Re: Cleaning up clouds
>
> A.D. (and stover to help)
>
> How can I get two of these cookers, one to the USA and one to South Africa?
> Anyone travelling from India to these places and willing to carry one?
>
> (I think my credit is good with A.D. for US$20 plus something for the
> package
> carriers, so if a chance opens up to do this, please take action. Once the
> goods are in the USA, delivery there is an easy matter.)
>
> I believe that the Juntos gasifier will be a viable heat source for this
> type
> of cooking, and I would like to test it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
> --
>
>

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From tombreed at attbi.com Wed Aug 21 15:19:44 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: FYI: Roundup (and risks)
In-Reply-To: <18c.ccb998b.2a949db5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01c24968$e9ffb130$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Dan:

Well said and I'm looking forward to Harmon's answer.

TOM REED
----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 1:39 AM
Subject: Fwd: FYI: Roundup (and risks)

>
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From tombreed at attbi.com Wed Aug 21 15:44:42 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Improved Tincanium
Message-ID: <00ec01c2496c$6a017050$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear All:

As experimentalists we all use tin cans sometimes - very useful for
prototypes and continual use sometimes.... We are using it for the burner
in our new WoodGas CampStove. I suppose it lasts well because it is bathed
in injected air.

The word "Tincanium" was invented last year to describe this useful
elemental building material and I notice on Google that it occurs 57 times
in their files.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Charles Stoyer at CSM has been collecting 4"diam X 4 1/2" high cans for me.
He cuts off the OUTSIDE of the lid, rather than the inner rim, resulting in
a can that the lid still fits on to, rather than in to. Doesn't drop INTO
the soup. Can be used to cover in the frig. MUCH neater and no sharp
edges...

I have just purchased both an electric model (Hamilton Beach, $19.95) and
hand (Zyliss, Swiss, $12.95) model at Bed Bath and beyond. Vivian likes
them both too. Try it you'll like it. Birthday present for???

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Aug 21 16:47:05 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: FYI: Roundup (and risks)
In-Reply-To: <18c.ccb998b.2a949db5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020821234734.GB9176@cybershamanix.com>

Tom;
When someone answers scientific studies with drivel, why bother answering?
Most intelligent people will try to counter argue with other studies, at least.
I guess the only answer I could give to that last post from Dimiduk is:
Beam me up, Scottie! The loony-tunes are pretty thick down here.

Fact is, Dimiduk is a licensed pesticide applicator. He makes his living
running the local equivalent of Chemlawn. I haven't the slightest clue what his
interest is on the stoves list, outside of some really far stretch of the
imagination relating to making charcoal or running a forge, but an
environmentalist he is not. Nor can I see any possiblity of anyone who proposes
that people in the Third World start using dangerous chemicals to harvest
biomass which they will then burn in unvented stoves in their homes having even
the slightest interest in their health and welfare. Let's see: They buy
expensive chemicals (with money they don't have -- oh, right, maybe the World
Bank will lend it to them, turning them into indentured servants, perhaps to
repay the debt) to replace the hand labor (which they have an excess of) so that
they can not only pollute themselves and their children, not to mention
neighbors and Mother Earth, not just with the CO and tars they traditionally
breathe, but now also with dioxin and godess knows what other chemical cocktails
result in burning herbicides.
Fantastic! Terrific logic, eh? I might walk out of my house and get run over
by a car, so what the hell, I might as well smoke a stogie and glut myself on
meat and booze first, life is risky and we'll die anyway, so who cares.

I guess I'll listen to the well-educated scientists who did the studies
warning us of the dangers.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 05:17:26PM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
> Dear Dan:
>
> Well said and I'm looking forward to Harmon's answer.
>
> TOM REED
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
> To: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 1:39 AM
> Subject: Fwd: FYI: Roundup (and risks)
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> > >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > >
> > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> > >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From brunom1 at yucom.be Wed Aug 21 18:03:59 2002
From: brunom1 at yucom.be (Bruno M.)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Fw: AAC in USA
In-Reply-To: <000801c24940$93f33780$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020822032441.00a5eec0@pop3.yucom.be>

Dear Tom,
you wrote:
"Maybe CO2 bubbles could be incorporated from baking soda
and vinegar added later"
That will not work because your vinegar will neutralise some cement
or viceversa.

For those who have never seen AAC, Ytong- or Hebel- stones;
it is not really "concrete" as everbody knows it;
it is not a mixture from stones,sand and cement,it isn't even gray.

It is made in the following fasion:
A dry mixture from Sand, gypsum, lime,cement and aluminium ( fine metalpowder)
is mixed with some water. Put in a big casting form; afterwards it is cut and
than autoclaved.

How are the bubles come into it?
The fine aluminium powder reacts with mostly the lime and the water ( high PH)
to form hydrogen ( H2) bubbles ( not air-bubbels), and because the mass
is already stiffening at that point, the bubbels can't escape.
Result is a white foamlike but stonehard material, that when dry, can float
on water.
A common building material in europe known for decades. You can saw it by hand,
and you don't need a mortar to build a wall with it,
you can easiely glue them together.

It has good thermal values, ( isolation value and low thermal-mass);
but if it's a good refractory material I don't know, i don't believe it,
but I haven't don any experiment with it in that way.

Hope this was of any help.

Greets
Bruno Meersman.
(from Belgium)

=============================
At 12:28 21/08/2002 -0600, TOM wrote:
>Dear Dean and all:
>
>I inquired about the "floating concrete" with my friend Axel Weber in
>Germany and he sent me the following. Apparently the
>bricks are "autoclaved aerated concrete". This suggests a mixing process in
>which air is dissolved into the concrete in an autoclave and the pressure is
>released to form bubbles.
>
>I don't know if you could aerate concrete - might require a small amount of
>gluten or other chemical to hold the bubbles, but I doubt if you want a high
>pressure process. Maybe CO2 bubbles could be incorporated from baking soda
>and vinegar added later. Sounds like a little experimentation could make a
>nifty insulation product.
>
>What is the highest temperature that concrete can stand before it begins to
>break down?
>
>Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Weber-WTM" <Weber-WTM@t-online.de>
>To: "Thomas B Reed (E-Mail)" <tombreed@attbi.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:07 AM
>Subject: WG: AAC in USA
>
>
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Adele.Reggiori@ytong.com [mailto:Adele.Reggiori@ytong.com]Im
> > Auftrag von International@ytong.com
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. August 2002 13:56
> > An: weber-wtm@t-online.de
> > Betreff: AAC in USA
> >
> >
> > Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC) in USA
> >
> > Dear Sir:
> >
> > Thank you for your interest in YTONG products.
> >
> > The YTONG plant in Haines City, Florida is not in operation at present.
>We
> > do not know whether the owner, Readymix Industries Atlanta, intends to
> > resume production.
> >
> > You can get AAC products from the following manufacturers:
> >
> > BABB INTERNATIONAL - HEBEL
> > PAAC DIVISION
> > 6600 Highlands Parkway
> > Smyrna, GA 30082
> >
> > bp@babb.com
> > 770-308-1500 Bob Phillips
> > www.babb.com/aac
> >
> > ACCO Aerated Concrete Systems, Inc.
> > 3351 West Orange Blossom Trail
> > Apopka, FL 32712
> >
> > aacinfo@accoac.com
> > 1-888-901-ACCO(2226) - FAX 407-884-5111
> > www.acco-aac.com
> >
> > Sincerely yours,
> >
> > YTONG International GmbH
> > Hornstr. 3, 80797 München, Germany
> > Tel. (++49.89) 306 14 112
> > Fax (++49.89) 306 14 117
> > international@ytong.com
> > www.ytong.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
>Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>-
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.bioenergy2002.org
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

-----------------------------------------------------
Reply's to BrunoM1@yucom.be

From dstill at epud.net Wed Aug 21 21:48:21 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Fw: AAC in USA
Message-ID: <004001c2495e$1c8dbe40$791e6c0c@default>

Dear Bruno,

Thanks for the information. Cement breaks down at stove temperatures but I
wonder if the same technique could be used substituting clay for cement?

Best,

Dean

From Carefreeland at aol.com Wed Aug 21 22:13:09 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: FYI: Roundup (and risks)
Message-ID: <15c.125a1076.2a95da67@aol.com>

I haven't the slightest clue what his
interest is on the stoves list, outside of some really far stretch of the
imagination relating to making charcoal or running a forge, but an
environmentalist he is not. Nor can I see any possiblity of anyone who proposes
that people in the Third World start using dangerous chemicals to harvest
biomass which they will then burn in unvented stoves in their homes having even
the slightest interest in their health and welfare. Let's see: They buy
expensive chemicals (with money they don't have -- oh, right, maybe the World
Bank will lend it to them, turning them into indentured servants, perhaps to
repay the debt) to replace the hand labor (which they have an excess of) so that
they can not only pollute themselves and their children, not to mention
neighbors and Mother Earth, not just with the CO and tars they traditionally
breathe, but now also with dioxin and godess knows what other chemical cocktails
result in burning herbicides.
Fantastic! Terrific logic, eh? I might walk out of my house and get run over
by a car, so what the hell, I might as well smoke a stogie and glut myself on
meat and booze first, life is risky and we'll die anyway, so who cares.

I guess I'll listen to the well-educated scientists who did the studies
warning us of the dangers.

> Does anybody else understand how this guy reached these conclusions reading the same stoves list I have for the last year and a half? Did I say any of this? Or is this just some misdrawn conclusions?

> I stated that many vines were better as soil amendments and some NOT to be burned in ones house. Where are his studies of the combustion of Roundup residue(if you can find any by the time the wood is dry) if I had suggested to do that anyway? Did I recommend using plentiful labor in the third world as opposed to chemical treatment? Does anyone else know what else I am working on? Does he understand the meaning of the word satire?

> NO, beam ME up, Thank you,

Dan Dimiduk

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Aug 22 04:05:39 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: FYI: Roundup (and risks)
Message-ID: <003001c249d5$66e46120$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Dan

I would like you to know that of all the people who
contributed to the list in the past year that I have subscribed, your
contributions both to the group and to me privately have been some of the most
practical and useful in a developing country.

Your understanding of heat exchange and minimizing the
space required to get the heat out of a hot gas flow has been, in my estimation,
better than anyone else on the list. I have tried
to extend the reach of your knowledge by sharing what you have taught me with
others.

It is my opinion that this list is not the place for a
discussion of Roundup unless it relates to air quality from burning plants that
have been treated with it in such a way that its normal rapid breakdown has been
delayed and some harmful chemicals may be formed in the combustion, whether
theoretically or actually.

I agree with your assessment of real risks and point out
that if someone roasts a little meat over some charcoal they bought locally and
it had a single branch of a Tambuti tree in it, the person eating the meat would
drop dead. That is a real risk with immediate consequences. The
chances of a person here using Roundup and 'contaminating' some biomass while
also introducing some process that prevented the Roundup from breaking down as
it normally does, and then cooking something in a semi-closed environment and
getting poisoned in a way by the smoke that affected their health is about the
same risk (or lower) than the chances of my winning the lottery or gaining
recognition for my work.

Arguments in favour of taking extreme measures to prevent
chemical contamination are frequently based on thinking that is highly
theoretical and narrow. As measurements have improved, we can find
all sorts of chemicals in the oceans and lakes in parts per trillion.
These 'risks' are probably or possibly quantifiable, but the discussion of them
all too often ignores far greater risks that occur quite naturally. There
is no "clean green meal" out there in the bundu.

Being informed of and not being forced to accept any
particular risk is, I feel, a reasonable right, so it is good to know what is
out there, however a discussion about taking real (especially expensive) action
should keep in mind the universe of risk to which people are
subjected.

The main threat to health in
Swaziland is HIV/AIDS, fusareum roseum mould on the food (aflatoxin and
zearalenone), measles and alcohol consumption. Cigarette smoking, which is
the direct cause of death of about 85% of smokers, is a real hazard and highly
preventable. Agricultural chemicals are not very high on any list of
dangers in spite of the dreadful manner in which they are handled (in my
view). Cotton is a dangerous thing to grow, as are oranges, because of the
chemicals, and sugar cane to a lesser extent.

Roundup and any possible, theoretical
effect of it on cooking fumes are pretty near the bottom of a list of threats to
the people here. Perhaps if they used it they would have more to eat and
be far healthier.

Regards
Crispin

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Aug 22 05:50:39 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Fw: AAC in USA
In-Reply-To: <004001c2495e$1c8dbe40$791e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <20020822125117.GA9596@cybershamanix.com>

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 02:59:40PM -0700, Dean Still wrote:
> Dear Bruno,
>
> Thanks for the information. Cement breaks down at stove temperatures but I
> wonder if the same technique could be used substituting clay for cement?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
Cement might break down eventually, but it lasts quite awhile. People have
used perlite or vermiculite cement for refractory for years. That's what I use
in my stoves, and I used it in my large gasifying heating stove all last Winter
with good results. I also put in diatomaceous earth, which adds strength. I
wonder if flyash cement might be even better?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Aug 22 06:44:19 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:02 2004
Subject: Roundup (and risks)
Message-ID: <60.24c9cba8.2a965251@aol.com>

>Dans comments

The stoves-type questions that we all collectively have raised are these, as I see it:

1. what are the dangers of the combustion of herbicide materials - both with indoor chimneys and without - ie - what are the combustion products for different stoves.

> At no time was I suggesting this, sorry if I was misquoted. Let me clarify. What I am wanting to make clear is that : A) There is no need to first poison what one will cut manually for burning anyway. This would be redundant. Cut vines at base first, let dry, then remove, much easier as vines break down and let go of host plant.
B) If one does resort to a chemical treatment, the only reason is to first avoid skin contact with things such as poison ivy or thorns. Do it only to save labor in a thinning process where the vine residue is left to return to the soil and support a more desirable plant's growth. I find no need to list studies because the erosion reduction benefits of the practice of no-till farming are well documented. As are the environmental risks.
>In normal soil conditions, the damage done by roundup, made to do damage, returns to normal in a short while. I can find extremes in any study. That's what studies are for. Even the studies Harmon cited, stated clearly that roundup broke down immediately with contact with soil particles, but some of us missed that message. In an inert environment, such as in the bottle, any chemical has a long half life. Monsanto just did their homework to list the short 140 day (long) extreme. possibility found only in for instance nearly sterile, cool, shady, undisturbed, silicon sand laboratory conditions. Other chemicals have much longer extremes.
>Where is the other data from that same test, which lists the "normal" half life of roundup on biologically active soil? This is selective research. The other (short)extreme is that the roundup doesn't even make it to the soil intact because of soil contamination of the water used to mix it. That is how fast it normally breaks down, I thought I wrote that. I don't need to study what I see routinely.
>A knife or ax can do damage if misused as well. This is not from the web, it is quoted indirectly from the scientist who studied roundup at a local Monsanto lab. The nasty trace chemicals were added to counter the short half life. They now are being replaced by better ones. What more can one expect from a responsible chemical company?
C) I was suggesting use of poison ivy as a biomass energy source only when manually cut and combusted, only in a special sealed gasifier system which would completely eliminate the toxins. The energy would be used for power generation. This work is beyond the reach of most low budget (or third world) experimenters due to risks. (be careful Paul A) I would say the same treatment would be in order for any recently herbicide treated biomass under most conditions. Any reference to burning poison ivy in a woodstove was intended as a joke. The work of the gasifier would be to rid a landscape of residual toxins from this weed, only where it is a weed.
In our trade, the compost pile is used extensively to eliminate herbicide wastes on plants because of the biological activity that has been shown to break it down. Harmon, you are good at research, find one of these studies.

2. what are the third world virtues of using vines as a means of protecting native forests - is it better to take the Bush approach of learning to live with it. No good economic rationale for interventions?

> A land manager must do what is needed for the management he is doing. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If a farmer is loosing a desirable crop to vine overcrowding, he must first look at the conditions that encouraged the vine over the desirable crop in the first place as with any weed. Then natural, manual, or machine methods would be used to correct the problem as seen fit.
> Only if the other methods are unusable and the crop is of such value, would the use of herbicides be considered. With good farming methods this should be a rare case. Then a change to good management should replace the need for such extreme measures in the future.
> Since lawn management has been brought up, I will draw the comparison to keeping a lawn tall and thick to choke weeds as opposed to spraying all of the time. If spraying is requested, then good lawn management will reduce the frequency. The destruction of the topsoil is the primary cause for so much herbicide use. I have a case study I can show anyone but it is not in print. It is a job I manage with 2 soil conditions side by side. This is why I replace topsoil for a living now.
> In my landscape program, I look first at naturally balanced soil chemistry. Fertilizer use has also been decreased dramatically
> The second cause of overuse of pesticide in the landscape, is the peer pressure to keep ones lawn looking like a golf course. I don't play golf, and my lawn is supporting oak and other native hardwood seedlings by retaining soil moisture. I use herbicide personally, primarily to reduce bee sting on my children. I use soap and pesticide at work to reduce wasp stings on myself.
> My greenhouse is swarming with spiders that do most of the insect control quite effectively. (how many have tried that)? Also praying mantis, toads, and even an occasional turtle are invited. I use soap there too as needed. Lady bugs patrol the trees at the farm for small mites and aphids. Black racers (rat snakes) control the rats in the remaining landfill. Cats for the mice. Woodpeckers encouraged for borers and bark beetles. Should I go on?

3. could you read the Nature article and report back on other aspects of the study. I see a few percent difference in growth each year as a tremendously fast variation and, if true, one of the more alarming aspects of global warming I have ever heard.
> How does one become a subscriber to this journal? I have heard much about it but have never seen it.

4. are some vines going to work as a fuel source and others not? As a means of making charcoal.

> Absolutely, much research needing done here. The less developed lab can do this. Labor cost analysis must be a factor for production scale.

5. how much faster do vines normally grow than trees and why is this so? And why such a sharp reaction to a relatively small difference in CO2 (albeit now higher than ever known before). Any measure of relative efficiences of photosynthetic efficiencies?

> Most vines always grow faster. This is natures way of reconditioning bare soil. The forest trees can shade the vine seedlings nearly out of existence when given the upper hand. The balance lies here. Only mans upset of this balance by opening up so much canopy has given the vines the upper hand. In good soil, the desirable species have a better chance of winning the fight. Sometimes this is aided by the animal life they support. Usually they fight for root space as well. Simply mowing up to and under trees on the edge of the woods can control many vines.
> Some vines are not as aggressive and can coexist. In Ohio, Virginia creeper is not nearly as aggressive as say wild grape. With it's leaf pattern, it allows more sunlight to reach the leaves of it's host tree. I seldom find need to kill it. In other places it may be considered a weed pest.
>I have used wild grape to successfully choke wild honeysuckle brush, another pest here. while they are fighting, the trees grow over both of them if managed properly.
> It is only natural that extra CO2, like fertilizer, will enhance the growth rates of any plant that can take advantage of the resource. Vines naturally are aggressive and CO2 is a factor limiting growth. Add CO2 and you give the vines the upper hand over plants that have other limiting factors such as water or nitrogen.

I recognize that most of these are not of much interest to either of you - but I'm looking for a way to change the subject gracefully - and hope one of these topics can bring this subject back to "stoves" (and their fuel sources).

Ron

> All of this is of great interest to me, an excellent subject. As mentioned before, I have spent much time working at vine management hands on. I have heated my greenhouse with wild grape, only because there was so much around to dispose of. The labor involved per Btu. makes it impractical for me to consider this as a heat source I would work to encourage.
>I would recommend burning any non toxic vine cleared for other reasons. Many vines may have greater heat value and in no way would I write them off. Wild Hall's Honeysuckle is not a true vine, but more of a bush, I have been impressed with it's ability to provide both high Btu heat and good char. Considered a terrible weed in these parts.
> Thank you Ron, for returning this to proper subject. I will refrain from mentioning any chemicals by name in the future to reduce firestorm of criticism.

Dan Dimiduk

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Aug 22 06:58:26 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: herbicide breakdown?
Message-ID: <20020822135911.GA10179@cybershamanix.com>

I'll just say one last thing about herbicides. Because we presently live on a
very small city lot, we garden in a community garden, which became so popular it
outgrew it's former space. The administrators wanted to move it to another field
last year, but that field tested too high in herbicides, principally Roundup,
(after over a year since it had been treated) so we weren't able to move last
year.
This year we're in the new field. We've been gardeners for over 35 years, we
do know how to do it. This is the worst garden we've ever had -- because the
herbicide content in the soil is still apparantly very high. A couple of glaring
examples: One bed 4'x12' of collards -- 3 plants came up, remained stunted.
Another same sized bed of beets -- nothing came up. Except plenty of weeds, in
both cases. Now the same seeds were planted at home in containers, we got pretty
much 100% germination. Likewise many other crops were seriously affected -- bush
beans barely came up, we replanted, still very sparse, and the plants are
stunted and barely producing. Corn had to be replanted and is quite stunted,
peas had to be replanted and still barely came up, and were stunted. Potatoes
are growing but very small tops. Summer squash is growing but so few zukes and
yellow squash it's amazing, usually you're flooded with those. Lettuce seems
okay except that one end, about a 4' section of the 12' bed almost nothing
germinated.
The soil is dead -- not an earthworm anywhere, and, as far as I can see, no
other little creatures of any kind. We applied a good deal of well-rotted
manure, and have side-dressed since with manure tea, but of course, if there
aren't any soil microorganisms to help the plants utilize this, it doesn't help
much. Despite tilling, the soil compacted after a few rains into such a hardpan
that I couldn't shove the poles for the pole beans into it.
Anyone who thinks these things break down quickly is deluded. There are
plenty of scientific studies to prove that they don't, and as we can see from
our garden, they can remain active for years. And, if you bothered to read the
stuff I posted earlier about Roundup, you know that it is also present in the
food crop itself, and there is now a proven direct link between Roundup and
cancer, just as there was earlier with the phenoxy compounds like 2,4-D.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Thu Aug 22 07:47:59 2002
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: herbicide breakdown?
In-Reply-To: <20020822135911.GA10179@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <3D64BFFD.14361.5376D97@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 8:59, Harmon Seaver wrote:

> I'll just say one last thing about herbicides.

I'll just say one thing about Monsanto: they are the antiChrist.

Thanks for the account, Harmon.

Scott Willing
Roundup Ready Citizen

From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Aug 22 07:49:26 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: Biomass collection disease risks, and controls
Message-ID: <11a.158d82e1.2a966134@aol.com>

> comments below

> Thank you for the support Crispin. The respect is fully mutual. I share this now with everyone out of concern.
While we on stoves list are discussing real risk assessment for Biomass Energy enthusiasts and natural controls for third world environmental problems. The risk for West Nile virus in the United States is becoming more real everyday. My neighborhood of Huber Heights was early on the list of discovery of this virus in birds. I highly suggest that all concerned with any mosquito born disease look into the development of BAT habitat.
Being a lifetime caver, I have had the pleasure of discovering all of the benefits of this amazing creature. The bat is the single most effective natural control against the mosquito. Bat houses are as easy to build as bird houses. Bat habitat is often being destroyed. Only a nocturnal creature can be as effective. Their byproduct is the best organic fertilizer in the world. Most reports of problems with bats are overstated.
Also listed locally in the controlling species are dragonfly, toad, frog, fish, all of which eat mosquito larva, purple Martin, and swallows are best in the bird family.
Since this is a little off subject, I will leave the rest to personal web research. Most of the information is out there. With the incidence of all mosquito born disease a universal Global problem. Not enough can be said or done to prevent it. We in the biomass business are especially at risk, due to the environment we often work in.
Pass it on,

Daniel Dimiduk
Shangri-La Research

From Artsolar at aol.com Thu Aug 22 15:42:26 2002
From: Artsolar at aol.com (Artsolar@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: herbicide breakdown?
Message-ID: <2f.2bfa2e8d.2a96d06a@aol.com>

I'll just say one thing about Monsanto: they are the antiChrist.

I suggest we change the focus of the listserve to Rants Against Large Corporations.

Art

From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Aug 22 17:15:29 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: Fwd: herbicide breakdown?
Message-ID: <114.161385e6.2a96e61b@aol.com>

Stovers,
We don't always agree with the professional opinions of one another.
If we did this would be a boring forum. The only thing harder than putting
up a reasonable disagreement is agreeing to disagree and moving on. Sorry if
this is still a little distant from mainstream stoves. I really like Harmon
and his strong opinions, so I will attempt to meet him on the common ground
as best as possible.
I am really missing my garden this year as it was too wet when I had
time to plant this year and now we are in a moderate drought. I'll work on
his garden problems for a while and you are welcome to join. We must grow
before we can burn.
Dan D.

To: hseaver@cybershamanix.com
Subject: Re: herbicide breakdown?
From: Carefreeland@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:20:56 EDT
Full-name: Carefreeland
In a message dated 8/22/02 10:58:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hseaver@cybershamanix.com writes:

> Comments below

--
Harmon Seaver

> Dear Harmon,
This is something I can work with better, although a little off subject. My guess is that you have a fundamental soil problem such as high pH which is causing all of the listed problems. I would be very upset if I had these problems too. Actually I do here in limestone land. I think everyone growing any form of biomass can benefit from these suggestions as these problems are universal.
> The dead giveaway is the word "hardpan". All of the symptoms you describe are nutriant deficiancys (phosphorus #1) and compaction. Possibly the reason the farmer overused the chemicals, was that he couldn't control the weeds any other way. He was worse off than you, trying the wrong effort to solve the problem. Pesticide residue may persist in poor soil, but may not be the root problem. Nature was growing what she does best in this soil condition.
> This syndrom is caused by too much bicarbonate, carbonate, and other alkali in the soil. Very common and caused by many misguided practices, none of which are yours. You have two methods of recovery: 1) chemical, I don't think you are interested in that, and 2) organic.
>You are doing the right thing by adding manure. IF you are allowing the soil to recover and not planting a section right away, try experimenting with non-composted manure with the urine fresh from the animal bedding. The natural acids will work to balance the soil, the reverse reaction can also occure with the ammonia driving the pH higher, so watch out using uncomposted products, it's touchy. Best done in the fall as an overwinter treatment because the cold will sterilise the ground. Till in and allow plenty of air to the soil. I only recommend this to experianced gardeners.
> Use winter cover crops like clover, alfalfa, grow lots of beans and legumes rotated throughout the garden. Can't get enough humus, and the roots add a lot. This works well with the above, as the excess ammonia is sucked up by the plants and converted to nitrates. Use of straw or dried grass mulch with above has same effect as they tend to draw nitrogen from soil till decomposing fully.
> Add any amendment high in acid reaction like phospates such as bone meal. Leaf molds (leaf composts) from hardwoods are as good and safe as it gets. Use well composted leaf molds directly in the planting holes and mounds with acid loving plants like tomatoes and vines. Mix with soil 50/50.
>Nitrate sources such as from blood meal and guano. Use nitrate instead of ammonium sources everytime. Use mulches such as hardwood bark, known to be acidic. The tannic acid in oak and walnut bark will be too strong for seeds until broken down. On the other hand, they discourage weed growth for the same reason around larger plants. Use oldest compost mixed with soil for seedbeds.
> Watch your soil pH one way or another. Use an aquarium test kit by mixing soil sample with distilled water. Cheap and effective. pH tests can lie too. So use your gardening experiance along with them.
> Don't use alkaline tap water to water. Only use tap water if the plants are dying and you have no choise. If you have any way to use rain water than do so. Try balancing tap water with vinegar. This is not a perminant fix and the problem is still there but it is a band-aid. Phosporic acid is the first choise for greenhouse professionals, sulfuric acid is also used. Where is your line between organic and non? On landscapes we use granulated sulfur for a semi-long term soil correction solution.
> Down the road what you are needing to do is to get the acid producing bacteria to thrive in the organic humus. That will balance the alkaline clays and limestone sands. You can't use enough compost on these soils. A little silicon sand( not limestone based sand) can help break the soil up and drain it. Gypsum is an excellent long term solution to both problems.
>Check your sub drainage, till deep. The root cause of these common problems on irrigated soils is lack of drainage to wash out the salts. Hilling techniques, and other practices which wash the soil with rain are also effective. The old english double digging method is what was used there, with those "white cliffs of Dover" lime soils.
If you are on a slope, then use that to both catch and leach the soil with the contour furrow method.
> If the soil is very flat, try to make a low drainage area to route the salty soil leachate. or dig drainage trench to a lower area.
> Lastly, gradually re-introduce the bugs you like the most, such as the earthworms. Just remember to feed them composts and garden wastes or they will die. Some greenhouse growers inocculate their soils with compost from the oldest pile around. Find good forest floor soil and spread a wheelbarrel of it around in the fall or early spring.
> The higher the organic activity, the faster those nasty toxins will go away. I use much lower rates of pesticide on nearly sterile soil. It doesn't take much to kill a weed when it is bearly alive. Unfortunately, a happy soil with a problem weed can be a happy weed too and it is often hard to kill. Fortunately there are a bunch of other things to try, and the pesticide goes away quickly too.
> Good luck and keep me posted. Happy to help any gardener
Dan Dimiduk

From raywije at eureka.lk Thu Aug 22 19:47:47 2002
From: raywije at eureka.lk (Ray Wijewardene)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: Fw: AAC in USA
In-Reply-To: <20020822125117.GA9596@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <MABBKKNLMCKBBJKBLMGNGEKKCMAA.raywije@eureka.lk>

At this interval may I inject a piece of earthly wisdom from us rural folk
in Sri Lanka. When making domestic clay stoves in the villages we always use
'ant-hill-earth' as the cement for binding the bricks of stones or whatever
main materials are used for the basic structure. Most villages...even in the
desert areas of NM and Texas and CA, I guess,... sprout ant-hills and the
predigested (by the ants!) earth which they used to form their ant-hills,
has most of the properties needed to bind earth-clay stoves. Ray
Wijewardene, Sri-Lanka.

-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:hseaver@cybershamanix.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:51 AM
To: Dean Still
Cc: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Fw: AAC in USA

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 02:59:40PM -0700, Dean Still wrote:
> Dear Bruno,
>
> Thanks for the information. Cement breaks down at stove temperatures but I
> wonder if the same technique could be used substituting clay for cement?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
Cement might break down eventually, but it lasts quite awhile. People
have
used perlite or vermiculite cement for refractory for years. That's what I
use
in my stoves, and I used it in my large gasifying heating stove all last
Winter
with good results. I also put in diatomaceous earth, which adds strength. I
wonder if flyash cement might be even better?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From tombreed at attbi.com Fri Aug 23 05:34:49 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: Fw: AAC in USA
In-Reply-To: <004001c2495e$1c8dbe40$791e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <015701c24aa9$2b654220$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Axel and All:

Axel is recovering from minor surgery and is expert in cement in a practical
sort of way.

Axel, we are a group tying to make improve CHEAP refractories for stoves
around the world and have lately been particularly interested in cements,
hence my previous question on the Aerated cement we found.

Do you have anything to add to the below while you are recupperating?

Your Pal, TOM REED
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: AAC in USA

> On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 02:59:40PM -0700, Dean Still wrote:
> > Dear Bruno,
> >
> > Thanks for the information. Cement breaks down at stove temperatures but
I
> > wonder if the same technique could be used substituting clay for cement?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dean
> >
> Cement might break down eventually, but it lasts quite awhile. People
have
> used perlite or vermiculite cement for refractory for years. That's what I
use
> in my stoves, and I used it in my large gasifying heating stove all last
Winter
> with good results. I also put in diatomaceous earth, which adds strength.
I
> wonder if flyash cement might be even better?
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

From tombreed at attbi.com Fri Aug 23 05:43:18 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: Roundup of the Last Roundup...
In-Reply-To: <003001c249d5$66e46120$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <016901c24aaa$bad4a8f0$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear All for the Last Time:

Even though it is largely peripheral, I have
enjoyed the discussion of Roundup utility and toxicity here on the list.

One problem not mentioned is dosage and amount
used.

Water, properly applied, is necessary for crop
growth. Improperly applied it causes floods and erosion. Should we
therefore give it up?

Farmers, finding that fertilizers are effective,
have often overused them, resulting in heavy runoff and eutrofication of
lakes. Does that mean that all farmers should abandon all fertilizers?
NO

I have used Roundup selectively and carefully with
no ill effects around my garden. I'm glad to hear the price will come down
and I'll use it a bit more, but not poison the whole business. (Thanks to
Harmon for example of overuse; Thanks to Crispin for examples of necessary
use.)

So, we need to use chemicals carefully, but
not ban them. As we Humans get cleverer, we need to get wiser.

END OF DISCUSSION I
HOPE.

TOM REED

----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Crispin

To: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">Stoves
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:01
AM
Subject: Re: FYI: Roundup (and
risks)

Dear Dan

I would like you to know that of all the people who
contributed to the list in the past year that I have subscribed, your
contributions both to the group and to me privately have been some of the most
practical and useful in a developing country.

Your understanding of heat exchange and minimizing the
space required to get the heat out of a hot gas flow has been, in my
estimation, better than anyone else on the list. I have tried to extend the reach of your knowledge by sharing what
you have taught me with others.

It is my opinion that this list is not the place for a
discussion of Roundup unless it relates to air quality from burning plants
that have been treated with it in such a way that its normal rapid breakdown
has been delayed and some harmful chemicals may be formed in the combustion,
whether theoretically or actually.

I agree with your assessment of real risks and point out
that if someone roasts a little meat over some charcoal they bought locally
and it had a single branch of a Tambuti tree in it, the person eating the meat
would drop dead. That is a real risk with immediate consequences.
The chances of a person here using Roundup and 'contaminating' some biomass
while also introducing some process that prevented the Roundup from breaking
down as it normally does, and then cooking something in a semi-closed
environment and getting poisoned in a way by the smoke that affected their
health is about the same risk (or lower) than the chances of my winning the
lottery or gaining recognition for my work.

Arguments in favour of taking extreme measures to
prevent chemical contamination are frequently based on thinking that is highly
theoretical and narrow. As measurements have improved, we can find
all sorts of chemicals in the oceans and lakes in parts per trillion.
These 'risks' are probably or possibly quantifiable, but the discussion of
them all too often ignores far greater risks that occur quite naturally.
There is no "clean green meal" out there in the bundu.

Being informed of and not being forced to accept any
particular risk is, I feel, a reasonable right, so it is good to know what is
out there, however a discussion about taking real (especially expensive)
action should keep in mind the universe of risk to which people are
subjected.

The main threat to health in
Swaziland is HIV/AIDS, fusareum roseum mould on the food (aflatoxin and
zearalenone), measles and alcohol consumption. Cigarette smoking, which
is the direct cause of death of about 85% of smokers, is a real hazard and
highly preventable. Agricultural chemicals are not very high on any list
of dangers in spite of the dreadful manner in which they are handled (in my
view). Cotton is a dangerous thing to grow, as are oranges, because of
the chemicals, and sugar cane to a lesser extent.

Roundup and any possible,
theoretical effect of it on cooking fumes are pretty near the bottom of a list
of threats to the people here. Perhaps if they used it they would have
more to eat and be far healthier.

Regards
Crispin

From tombreed at attbi.com Fri Aug 23 05:45:31 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: Fw: AAC in USA
Message-ID: <017101c24aaa$fc92a580$0782fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear All:

This just in from our new friend Axel, coming to visit in early September.

TOM REED

----- Original Message -----
From: "Weber-WTM" <Weber-WTM@t-online.de>
To: "'Tom Reed'" <tombreed@attbi.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 5:44 AM
Subject: AW: AAC in USA

>
> Hi Tom,
>
> They take very fine sand and Lime, cement, water and aluminum powder. They
> bake this in water steam by 200 Degrees Celsius. The aluminum powder makes
> the bubbles. I will bring some Information with me to Denver.
>
>
> Axel
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Tom Reed [mailto:tombreed@attbi.com]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. August 2002 20:29
> An: Dean Still; Ron Larson; Stoves
> Cc: Axel Weber
> Betreff: Fw: AAC in USA
>
>
> Dear Dean and all:
>
> I inquired about the "floating concrete" with my friend Axel Weber in
> Germany and he sent me the following. Apparently the
> bricks are "autoclaved aerated concrete". This suggests a mixing process
in
> which air is dissolved into the concrete in an autoclave and the pressure
is
> released to form bubbles.
>
> I don't know if you could aerate concrete - might require a small amount
of
> gluten or other chemical to hold the bubbles, but I doubt if you want a
high
> pressure process. Maybe CO2 bubbles could be incorporated from baking
soda
> and vinegar added later. Sounds like a little experimentation could make
a
> nifty insulation product.
>
> What is the highest temperature that concrete can stand before it begins
to
> break down?
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Weber-WTM" <Weber-WTM@t-online.de>
> To: "Thomas B Reed (E-Mail)" <tombreed@attbi.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:07 AM
> Subject: WG: AAC in USA
>
>
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Adele.Reggiori@ytong.com [mailto:Adele.Reggiori@ytong.com]Im
> > Auftrag von International@ytong.com
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. August 2002 13:56
> > An: weber-wtm@t-online.de
> > Betreff: AAC in USA
> >
> >
> > Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC) in USA
> >
> > Dear Sir:
> >
> > Thank you for your interest in YTONG products.
> >
> > The YTONG plant in Haines City, Florida is not in operation at present.
> We
> > do not know whether the owner, Readymix Industries Atlanta, intends to
> > resume production.
> >
> > You can get AAC products from the following manufacturers:
> >
> > BABB INTERNATIONAL - HEBEL
> > PAAC DIVISION
> > 6600 Highlands Parkway
> > Smyrna, GA 30082
> >
> > bp@babb.com
> > 770-308-1500 Bob Phillips
> > www.babb.com/aac
> >
> > ACCO Aerated Concrete Systems, Inc.
> > 3351 West Orange Blossom Trail
> > Apopka, FL 32712
> >
> > aacinfo@accoac.com
> > 1-888-901-ACCO(2226) - FAX 407-884-5111
> > www.acco-aac.com
> >
> > Sincerely yours,
> >
> > YTONG International GmbH
> > Hornstr. 3, 80797 München, Germany
> > Tel. (++49.89) 306 14 112
> > Fax (++49.89) 306 14 117
> > international@ytong.com
> > www.ytong.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Fri Aug 23 07:34:19 2002
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: herbicide breakdown?
In-Reply-To: <2f.2bfa2e8d.2a96d06a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D660F42.23095.A551144@localhost>

Yes, the comment was off topic. I apologize.

Sometimes the contrast between the good efforts and good heart of
people in communities such as this list represents, and the blindly
profit-motivated blundering of powerful corporations, is too much to
take in silence.

Where I live, Monsanto's GMO canola has polluted other fields to the
extent that it is now impossible to grow a certified (sufficiently
pure) organic alternative in this province. They assured us that this
wouldn't happen, so they are either incompetent, or they knew exactly
what would happen and purposely lied as they rubbed their chubby
little hands at the prospect. Either way they are engaged in reckless
experimentation on our collective environment and will never have my
trust or respect.

Now they are pressuring the government to let them unleash GMO wheat
on the Canadian prairies. They are in an all-fired hurry, as I
understand it, because the patents on their Roundup ready canola are
running out.

God help us all.

I'll say nothing more on the subject using this list.

-=s

On 22 Aug 2002 at 19:40, Artsolar@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/22/02 9:47:59 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> willing@mb.sympatico.ca writes:
>
>
> > I'll just say one thing about Monsanto: they are the antiChrist.
> >
> >
>
> I suggest we change the focus of the listserve to Rants Against Large
> Corporations.
>
> Art
>

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Fri Aug 23 07:44:09 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: Cleaning up clouds
Message-ID: <000001c24abf$60d86ac0$3752c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Paul,
I was away from Pune for almost a week and I saw you message just now.
We can send the cookers by post or by courier service. I shall inquire how
much it would cost. Please let me know the exact address where you want the
stoves to be delivered. The weight of the entire assembly is less than 2 kg.
A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
Cc: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>; stoves@crest.org
<stoves@crest.org>
Date: Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:38 AM
Subject: Re: Cleaning up clouds

>A.D. (and stover to help)
>
>How can I get two of these cookers, one to the USA and one to South Africa?
>Anyone travelling from India to these places and willing to carry one?
>
>(I think my credit is good with A.D. for US$20 plus something for the
package
>carriers, so if a chance opens up to do this, please take action. Once the
>goods are in the USA, delivery there is an easy matter.)
>
>I believe that the Juntos gasifier will be a viable heat source for this
type
>of cooking, and I would like to test it.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Paul
>--
>Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
>(In Mozambique until early October)
>
>
>Quoting Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 04:23:35PM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
>> > In charcoal burning stoves, the fire does not have to be continuously
>> > tended. In the stove-and-cooker configuration that we are trying to
>> > popularise among the urban poor, the cooker accepts three pots, one
>> holding
>> > rice, another holding beans or meat and the third holding vegetables.
The
>> > pots sit one on top of the other. The housewife lights char briquettes
in
>> > the stove below the cooker and once the fire gets going, she can even
go
>> out
>> > of the house and come back after about an hour. The briquettes would
>> have
>> > burnt out by this time, but she gets a cooked hot meal. Because the
>> cooker
>> > cooks using steam, there is no danger of the meal getting burned
(unless
>> she
>> > puts too little water in the cooker). The cooker has a double wall with
a
>> > gap of about 6 mm between the cooker and the outer jacket. The
assembly
>> has
>> > been so designed, that the flue gases have to pass through this gap.
100
>> g
>> > char briquettes can cook a meal for five persons. A housewife using a
>> > traditional wood burning stove and cooking each item separately, would
>> > require about 3 kg wood to cook the same amount of food. The stove is
>> made
>> > of mild steel, but the cooker, the outer jacket and the pots inside the
>> > cooker are all made of stainless steel. We are offering the
>> stove-and-cooker
>> > assembly for Rs. 500 (US$10) each. The cost is so low, that people just
>> > cannot resist buying it, and they then become permanent customers of
our
>> > char briquettes! :-)
>>
>> Sounds neat! Do you have pictures of it on the web? How big and heavy
is
>> it?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Harmon Seaver
>> CyberShamanix
>> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>>
>> -
>> Stoves List Archives and Website:
>> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
>> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>> >
>> Stoves List Moderators:
>> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>> >
>> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>> >
>> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>> -
>> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>> >
>> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>>
>>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu
>

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Fri Aug 23 07:45:18 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: vines
Message-ID: <000101c24abf$628cd180$3752c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

All plants need sunlight for their photosynthesis.
They therefore strive to grow tall if they are shaded by another tree. This
mechanism is called shade avoidance. The vines are an extreme example
of shade avoidance mechanism. They not only grow very fast when shaded by
another plant, but make use of the shading plant itself to reach the sunlight.
Another shade avoidance mechanism is found in some species in which the seeds
just do not germinate if they are not exposed to direct sunlight. This
mechanism avoids shady places for the future generations. A whole group of
plants, evolved in tropical rain forests, have adapted themselves to
growing in the shade of tall trees. These are the typical shade
tolerators. Most of our indoor ornamentals have been derived from such
plants. We however observed another phenomenon. In some tree species, the seed
falls on the ground and germinates in the shade of its own mother
plant. These saplings cannot grow fast enough to grow taller than the
mother tree. Therefore they become shade tolerant and just remain stunted for a
few years. During this period they accumulate food in their roots.
When they have stored enough food, they cast the shade tolerance aside and
become shade avoiders, growing rapidly to compete with their
neighbours.
Vines grow faster than other plants because they
produce a hormone called gibberellic acid (GA) in larger quantities than other
plants. One can get bushy mutations of the same species with lower levels
of GA. Bush bean is such a mutation derived from pole beans. One can make a bush
bean plant grow into a pole bean by spraying it with GA, but if not supported by
a stake, such plants topple over by their own weight.
A.D.Karve

From Carefreeland at aol.com Fri Aug 23 11:11:58 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: vines and growth strategies
Message-ID: <dc.1bfca429.2a97e1ee@aol.com>

> Dan's comments

All plants need sunlight for their photosynthesis. They therefore strive to grow tall if they are shaded by another tree. This mechanism is called shade avoidance. The vines are an extreme example of shade avoidance mechanism. They not only grow very fast when shaded by another plant, but make use of the shading plant itself to reach the sunlight. Another shade avoidance mechanism is found in some species in which the seeds just do not germinate if they are not exposed to direct sunlight. This mechanism avoids shady places for the future generations. A whole group of plants, evolved in tropical rain forests, have adapted themselves to growing in the shade of tall trees. These are the typical shade tolerators. Most of our indoor ornamentals have been derived from such plants. We however observed another phenomenon. In some tree species, the seed falls on the ground and germinates in the shade of its own mother plant. These saplings cannot grow fast enough to grow taller than the mother tree. Therefore they become shade tolerant and just remain stunted for a few years. During this period they accumulate food in their roots. When they have stored enough food, they cast the shade tolerance aside and become shade avoiders, growing rapidly to compete with their neighbours.

> This is a fantastic observation. I have learned most of what I know about these plants from watching them compete over a long period of time in the same places. I have witnessed this very phenomenon in various hardwoods locally.
>The Oak family is particularly adapted to the shade Vs light war of the forest. I have seen oak trees growing at 1inch per year or less for several decades in deep shade. Yet as they approach the canopy level they burst into a growth spirt that makes you question what happened. Growing feet per year until through the canopy then spreading out dominating the area. We had often attributed this to the tap roots reaching the permanent water table some 20 feet or more below. There may be some of both mechanisms at work here.
> The Oak is not always king here though in virgin forests. The hard maples such as Sugar maple can often even crowd out the oaks with another strategy. The Maples use a group assault on Oaks to crowd them out. The Oaks fortunately are not so dominating although usually being the giant lone wolfs. You will find many other species of hardwood and other mid story trees living under the oaks in the filtered light. When the maples take over, very little else can live in their shade.
> While our heads are turned up in the forest we must not forget that half of the competition is with the roots underground. Where soils are shallow, the maples usually dominate by stealing every drop of moisture and sharing the dew from the moisture they transpire among themselves with their thick layered leaf canopy. The maple roots are more shallow and form a dense sod several feet thick.
> The Oaks, although appearing to be so dominating, actually are much deeper rooted and pull up moisture from deep reserves. When they transpire and the dew collects, they share it among all of the diverse plants growing underneath them.
> If you doubt that Oaks nurture other plants, just look at the way the leaves appear when laying on the ground in the fall. The deep lobes allow small patches of soil to show through. This allows other species to sprout and thrive as part of the support system for the mother tree. The curling of the leaves also allows more aeration of the usually wetter fall soils in their habitat.
>If you observe Maple leaves, they have the strategy of covering everything in a thick paper mulch that is best suited for moisture penetration by slow melting snow. They trap this moisture in their thick root mats for the next dry season with less dependence on the deepness of the often shallow hillside soil.
> The vines have similar strategies best suited for the habitat they grow in. Vines that take over bare areas quickly often do not thrive in the deep shade of the 3 layer canopy. The best they can do is try to race to the tops of their hosts and choke them to death before they die themselves or live a stunted streached out life. These are the types of vines that are becoming the biggest problem because we have cleared areas for them to thrive.
>The giveaway is often the leaf types. If a leaf is deeply cut or lobbed it often is better at sharing space. Broad solid leaves do not indicate a plant that shares space.
A plant with small leaves usually shares space as well. Some plants use this combined with other strategies such as chemicals to choose what other plant can share. Take the Locust or the Walnut tree.
> Locust trees have small leaves but chemicals that prevent most other type plants from growing with them. They grow as a grove and improve the sterile soil until complete. Then the whole grove thins and dies as they allow a new crop of other more developed type trees to use the soil they improved.

Vines grow faster than other plants because they produce a hormone called
gibberellic acid (GA) in larger quantities than other plants. One can get bushy mutations of the same species with lower levels of GA. Bush bean is such a mutation derived from pole beans. One can make a bush bean plant grow into a pole bean by spraying it with GA, but if not supported by a stake, such plants topple over by their own weight.
A.D.Karve

> Their are numerous complex strategies for every combination of plants. Then when we observe their interactions with the animal life they host, the strategies become more complex. I am confident that this area of study is far from complete. Man is just a cog in the wheel, but the only one that can influence all of the others.

Daniel Dimiduk

From dstill at epud.net Fri Aug 23 21:44:59 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: August Stove Course: CO emissions
Message-ID: <010701c24b66$ae7bede0$d21e6c0c@default>

Dear Friends,

Just a quick report while it's fresh in my mind...I'm leaving for vacation
and will be on the river for a week which might erase my all too faulty
circuits.

Rob Bailis, Marian Grebanier, Michael Kunashko, Miho, Martin, and Tami Bond
met with Larry Winiarski, Ken Goyer, Peter Scott, Mike Hatfield, Damon Ogle
and myself ( the Aprovecho stove crew) this week to build stoves and see if
we could lower the CO created. Rob brought a Enerac 2000 combustion analyzer
which pretty much agreed with the humble HOBO CO data logger and meter that
we use. Emissions were checked at the top of a 6' chimney above the stove
hood where it was cool enough for the HOBO that can't stand high
temperatures. Using our set up we are limited to comparing stoves and can't
make guesses about what the stove emissions would do to a kitchen. The
numbers/stoves are only comparable to eachother.

It was only on the last day that I could predict what effect feeding the
wood into the stove would have on the amount of CO flying up the chimney.
Very small changes tending the fire resulted in large changes in CO. We saw
numbers in the thousands (parts per million) which very quickly could go
down to the teens. Putting a stick on the fire could shoot the numbers up
hundreds of points. I was truly amazed at the variability.

I intended that we would try to test the following approaches to lowering CO
emissions:

And we did experiment with several of these ideas.

IDEA ONE We built a experimental stove in which the hot flue gases went down
into the bed of coals on a screen before passing under a fence and going up
a 24" insulated chimney. We agreed that: 1.) more draft is better than less
draft in cutting CO 2.) that the coals need to be close to the fire for
good performance 3.) the screen has to have 1/4" holes or larger to remain
unclogged. Whether the approach has merit needs more experimentation to
determine.

IDEA THREE We built four types of vanes placed in the Rocket chimney above
the fire to see if we could create turbulence. We agreed that: 1) Because
the air in the chimney has low velocity the small vanes we created did not
make much swirl or mixing. A larger vane set up was too large and suppressed
the draft creating a lot of smoke. Needs more work...

IDEA SIX Blocking most of the air entering the fuel magazine above the
sticks while allowing air to pass under the sticks through the coals
resulted in a controllable rate of CO production. It was possible to keep
the stove between 20 to 30 PPM by: 1.) using four sticks at a time to make a
big fire that shot flames out of the 17" high internal chimney above the
fire 2.) Using less wood and creating a less active fire made more CO. We
agreed that a hot, fierce fire with lots of draft seemed to produce less CO.
3.) Allowing air to pass over the sticks may raise the levels of CO but more
tests need to be done.

Many other topics were discussed, light weight bricks were made, we enjoyed
making food for staff using Lanny's wok stove and a submerged two pot Rocket
stove, Larry made excellent grilled chicken on his beautiful wood fired
downfeed barbecue (like Peter Verhaart's) at a party, I had a great time
with such wonderful, productive folks.

And I'm already looking forward to continuing this fascinating look at CO.
Then on to particulates!

Best,

Dean

From Carefreeland at aol.com Sat Aug 24 06:46:31 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
Message-ID: <d1.1d46b3b1.2a98f5c0@aol.com>

> Dan's comments

Hey, well, it's too late -- they've got a long, long headstart on you. Check
out the previous post on Monsanto and GMOs. And this is just the stuff on the
commercial market -- we can only imagine what fantastic things they're cooking
in the lab, eh?

> This exchange about out of control genetic research from gasification list applies to all.
> I agree with this, there is some elements that are not well enough controlled and
not acting responsibly. They will ruin it for the rest by forcing more laws on conventional breeders. Most research with gene splicing is done in controlled, sealed greenhouses. Most GMO research is supposed to yield sterile plants which cannot reproduce and spread. A class action suit is the usual response to injured parties. What we need to ask is what genes are being spliced? Some gene splicing is just shortcutting what can be done with conventional breeding anyhow.
> The saddest part is that conventional breeding can achieve many of the same or better goals. These guys are just too lazy to work for what they want. Instead of breeding plants that resist herbicide, they should breed plants that are so healthy that they don't need herbicide. They should breed plants that can adapt to the modern climate. Yea, there is a little "drug pusher" greed mentality out there. It's everywhere.
> Where gene splicing should be used if at all, is to create plants that produce their own fertilizer, or more and better produce. There is no reason to produce gene spliced plants that are breeders. You can clone these things as needed much safer.
> On the other hand it is a brave new world. I cannot predict or change what Joe scientist will do in his lab any more than you. What we MUST do is work toward a world where there is no reason for people to want to fight over things. There will always be a way to self destruct and no matter what laws we pass, somebody who doesn't care if he dies, will just ignore them. A fuel-air bomb can be created out of the most minimum of ingredients. It doesn't take biological warfare.
> What we need to ask is why do people do these things in the first place? I say, let's remove the stresses in society that cause these people to crack. Like income inequality, poor living conditions, people mistreating people. The rest is up to a greater power.
> There are 6 BILLION people on this earth and many are starving. If this technology is to be put on a shelf as too dangerous, what suggestions do you have to feed these people instead? Is there room for these technologies anywhere? I say go forward into space and create room. I'll bet that will open Pandora's box of criticism. At least it's a positive direction.
> I have a friend who says it's all in population control. Fine for the future. What do we do with all of the people here now? Any volunteers to die? Many are dying anyhow. With the big summit in South Africa this week, all of these problems are on the board. What we need is SOLUTIONS.
> I see a lot of worry-mongering and still want to see suggestions on what any of us can DO about these problems. Harmon, what would you do about this? I am not attacking you, just wanting to pick your able brain since you helped bring up the problems in the first place. I know you spend a lot of time on computers, screening many solutions to these problems. I respect your knowledge, if not always your presentation. What solutions do you recommend? Would you pass more laws? Then what? Take the technology out of the big Corp.'s hands? Force more disclosure? Each solution creates more problems.
> These are Bioenergy lists, but the common reason to pursue these goals is to create a better world. These list's are about discussing possible solutions. This is the perfect time to introduce good ideas for open debate. With the power of the Internet, these ideas can be implemented overnight if agreed upon. Let's keep them list specific unless applying to all.
>Harmon, this is your chance to step forward with YOUR SOLUTIONS you see as most agreeable to all. If you don't have a specific solution, how about a direction to head for discussion? We all know about MANY more problems than we can possibly solve ourselves. Even Monsanto might help if the idea is good enough. If they need to make money, just remember how many people they feed directly through wages.
Well???
Daniel Dimiduk

From gregandapril at earthlink.net Sat Aug 24 08:05:03 2002
From: gregandapril at earthlink.net (Greg and April)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
In-Reply-To: <d1.1d46b3b1.2a98f5c0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009301c24b86$58571c80$0100a8c0@maincomputer>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>; <stoves@crest.org>;
<gasification@crest.org>; <bioenergy@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 08:44
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?

> In a message dated 8/23/02 9:38:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> hseaver@cybershamanix.com writes:
>
> Most research with gene splicing is done in
> controlled, sealed greenhouses.

I have yet to see a greenhouse that could be sealed, for they need
ventalation. In order to acheve the nessary level of being sealed, they
would have to be sealed to the level of a biowarfare facility because it is
basicly the same tech.

>Most GMO research is supposed to yield
> sterile plants which cannot reproduce and spread.

Please tell that to Canadian farmers having to deal with wild GM canola.

A class action suit is the
> usual response to injured parties. What we need to ask is what genes are
> being spliced? Some gene splicing is just shortcutting what can be done
with
> conventional breeding anyhow.

Some is, and this is the excuse that GM companies are using to do GM, it is
one thing to splice genes to speed up conventional breeding inside a species
that can crossbreed anyway. It is something else to splice genes across
spiecies that would not naturaly crossbreed. Think about it why don't we
gene splice the ability of corals to directly use the waste products of the
symbotic algae, to humans, that would be hailed as the great miricale to
releave human hunger.

> > The saddest part is that conventional breeding can achieve many of
the
> same or better goals. These guys are just too lazy to work for what they
> want. Instead of breeding plants that resist herbicide, they should breed
> plants that are so healthy that they don't need herbicide. They should
breed
> plants that can adapt to the modern climate.

Why do that when they, can force people to rely on them for a new mirical
crop every few years?

> > Where gene splicing should be used if at all, is to create plants
that
> produce their own fertilizer, or more and better produce. There is no
reason
> to produce gene spliced plants that are breeders. You can clone these
things
> as needed much safer.

A problem with this, is that for the most part, it is the result of breeding
that gives us food. The most plants puts all of the nutrition ( that we
need ) into the part that becomes next years crop, be it the seed, tuber, or
the part that protects the seed, like apples or squash.

Greg H.

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Aug 24 12:39:12 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: : AAC in USA
Message-ID: <006401c24bae$e3e19640$fa37fea9@home>

Dear Dean

Something you can try as a 'clay' binder is a clay+sand mix. We use it to
seal the stainless steel boxes we use to case harden steel parts.

Basically we have to create a temporary gas tight seal that costs almost
nothing. The parts are placed in the carbon granules (or crushed charcoal)
and a small amount of paper is placed in it, usually wrapped around the
part.

When the lid (which doesn't fit very well as they get very warped from the
heat) is placed on top and slightly inside the box edges. A seal of red
clay soil, a typical high iron oxide laterite clay soil is mixed to a stiff
paste and pressed around and into the joint.

When the sand content is right, the shrinkage is very limited, and it still
sticks well to the rather rough surface.

Typical temperatures are 900 C and up to 1100. The clay fires and gets hard
(terracotta, really) and it does a reasonable job at sealing the lid.

When it get hot inside, the paper catches on fire eating up the oxygen in
the area of the steel part. The charcoal starts to gas-off at about 900 so
case hardening is usually done at 920. The carbon gas penetrates the steel
at a rate of about 0.1mm per hour. When it is opened the parts are put into
water or oil and tempered.

The clay-sand seal is a tried and tested method that survives temperatures
not often seen in stove walls so it can probably be used very effectively.
I would use it in a very thin layer.

Regards
Crispin

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Aug 25 10:59:04 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (ronallarson@qwest.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: Fw: AAC in USA
Message-ID: <114780-22002802518577849@M2W046.mail2web.com>

Hi all:

This is a quick note to say we arrived fine in Johannesburg yesterday AM
and now are almost caught up on our sleep. The opening event just
concluded here (big spectacular).

A good selection of stoves at the GTZ display here - and even better of
solar stoves(more later here on that - after I talk to more GTZ staff).
Haven't seen any other stovers yet - but expect to do so on Tuesday.

This is also to say I met a village development expert from Sri Lanka today
as I was explaining the Greenstar display (see www.greenstar.org) - but he
said he didn't know Ray - or anything much about stoves.

The tent we are in is reputed to be the world's largest. An amazing amount
of free literature - and much that is very good.
All very friendly people.

More coming Ron

Original Message:
----------------

From: Ray Wijewardene raywije@eureka.lk
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:47:58 -0600
To: hseaver@cybershamanix.com, stoves@crest.org
Subject: RE: Fw: AAC in USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:hseaver@cybershamanix.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 6:51 AM
To: Dean Still
Cc: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Fw: AAC in USA

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 02:59:40PM -0700, Dean Still wrote:
> Dear Bruno,
>
> Thanks for the information. Cement breaks down at stove temperatures but I
> wonder if the same technique could be used substituting clay for cement?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
Cement might break down eventually, but it lasts quite awhile. People
have
used perlite or vermiculite cement for refractory for years. That's what I
use
in my stoves, and I used it in my large gasifying heating stove all last
Winter
with good results. I also put in diatomaceous earth, which adds strength. I
wonder if flyash cement might be even better?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Aug 26 14:10:33 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
In-Reply-To: <d1.1d46b3b1.2a98f5c0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020826211055.GA27362@cybershamanix.com>

On Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 09:53:07AM -0600, Greg and April wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
> To: <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>; <stoves@crest.org>;
> <gasification@crest.org>; <bioenergy@crest.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 08:44
> Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
>
>
> > In a message dated 8/23/02 9:38:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > hseaver@cybershamanix.com writes:
> >
> > Most research with gene splicing is done in
> > controlled, sealed greenhouses.
>

You're attributing someone elses words to me here and below.
In fact I've said none of the quotes you've copied here. Please be more careful
of quoting.

> I have yet to see a greenhouse that could be sealed, for they need
> ventalation. In order to acheve the nessary level of being sealed, they
> would have to be sealed to the level of a biowarfare facility because it is
> basicly the same tech.
>
> >Most GMO research is supposed to yield
> > sterile plants which cannot reproduce and spread.
>
> Please tell that to Canadian farmers having to deal with wild GM canola.
>
> A class action suit is the
> > usual response to injured parties. What we need to ask is what genes are
> > being spliced? Some gene splicing is just shortcutting what can be done
> with
> > conventional breeding anyhow.
>
> Some is, and this is the excuse that GM companies are using to do GM, it is
> one thing to splice genes to speed up conventional breeding inside a species
> that can crossbreed anyway. It is something else to splice genes across
> spiecies that would not naturaly crossbreed. Think about it why don't we
> gene splice the ability of corals to directly use the waste products of the
> symbotic algae, to humans, that would be hailed as the great miricale to
> releave human hunger.
>
> > > The saddest part is that conventional breeding can achieve many of
> the
> > same or better goals. These guys are just too lazy to work for what they
> > want. Instead of breeding plants that resist herbicide, they should breed
> > plants that are so healthy that they don't need herbicide. They should
> breed
> > plants that can adapt to the modern climate.
>
> Why do that when they, can force people to rely on them for a new mirical
> crop every few years?
>
> > > Where gene splicing should be used if at all, is to create plants
> that
> > produce their own fertilizer, or more and better produce. There is no
> reason
> > to produce gene spliced plants that are breeders. You can clone these
> things
> > as needed much safer.
>
> A problem with this, is that for the most part, it is the result of breeding
> that gives us food. The most plants puts all of the nutrition ( that we
> need ) into the part that becomes next years crop, be it the seed, tuber, or
> the part that protects the seed, like apples or squash.
>
> Greg H.
>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
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>
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> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
Gasification List Archives:
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From LINVENT at aol.com Mon Aug 26 17:16:41 2002
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
Message-ID: <1a3.7a6f2db.2a9c2c75@aol.com>

I hope that the discussion relating to gene manipulation of plants is somehow
connected to gasification. If biomass production could be increased for more
gasifier fuel, great, I suppose.
Remember that most of the genetic manipulators are those who have some
other product to sell. Cotton, corn, tomatos may be genetically modified to
resist Roundup, a product made by Monsanto, the same company which is doing
much of the genetic engineering. They can now sell Roundup for full field use
where before it was only for side area treatment or orchards where it was not
applied to the trees but the grasses which grew between the trees.
The issue is not laziness, but economics. The fact that herbicides or
insecticides are needed at all or BT gene splicing into cotton or corn is an
admission of failure of agriculture to master the soil chemistry to produce a
fertile soil, not a plant, which does not support weeds or allows a plant to
grow strong enough to resist pests. If a plant has enough sugar or
carbohydrate content, pests cannot eat it. Sugar ferments in lepidoptera
digestive tract and kills them. Oxalic acid causes precipitation of calcium
in the vessels of insects and kills them. Both in adequate amounts will
prevent pest predation. Healthy plants produce these, medium healthy plants
produce less and very weak plants do not produce enough feed value for the
pests to eat the plant, so the really sick plants and healthy ones are not
predated upon, but the ones in the middle.
Fields which have weeds in parts of them are clear demonstration of soil
properties which contribute to weed support in that area, and not the rest of
the field. This can be changed by moisture, wind, tillage practices, and
fertilization. Most chemical fertilization practices have lead to the
imbalanced soil which causes weed propagation. Of course, the same company
that sold the fertilizer is the one the farmer goes to to kill the weeds.
Nutrient ratios such as calcium:phosphorous, potassium:iron will have a
major role in weed propagation and plant strength. They go hand in hand. Weak
plants are a sign of weak soil and weeds and insects. Nutrient changes can
eliminate both of these and increase production.
Most hybrids or other specially evolved plants do not do well for long.
If you create a plant which is capable of drawing more potassium out of the
soil and doing better as a hybrid, after a while, it's ability to draw this
nutrient will deplete the soil and the plant will not do much better than the
native plants. For that reason, the search for better hybrids or genetically
engineered plants is seriously flawed. Having a plant which may produce
fertilizer is already the case. Plants support microbial activity on the root
hairs which digest soil minerals and provide them to the plant. This is how
wheat and other plants end up with silica in their plant tissue. At the same
time, the released nutrients add to the soil matrix. The release rate from
the soil to the plant is the quality of plant growth. The choice is, how much
do you want to release to the soil and how much to the plant?
I can go on and on about the defects in the current thinking and
management programs of agriculture. Being in it for 40 years has seen a lot,
most of it detrimental to the long term ag of the world. The US policy on ag
has destroyed most of it and continues to do so. It is depressing. We import
a lot of our food now and this will continue to increase due to the policy.
We used to reduce our balance of trade by 40% with ag exports. It is far
below that now. We are going ag and financially broke.
There is a great deal of information on our website listed below.

Sincerely,
Leland T. Taylor
President
Agronics Inc.
Address: 7100-E 2nd St. NW Albuquerque, NM 87107 phone: 505-761-1454, fax;
505-341-0424 website: agronicsinc.com
To download attachments, go to Aladdin.com and download unstuffit for
decompressing files

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Aug 27 02:20:48 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:03 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
Message-ID: <1bc.c257a56.2a9cabd5@aol.com>

> Daniel's comments below

I have been a sunscriber to this discussion group for almost two years now
and I am suprised at the way certain topics seem to digress from the main
focus of this discussion group. I would state that Gasifiers to date are
yet to take off in a big way.... the reason is not shortage of fuel
(bio-mass, wood etc) to worry about gene manipulation.

Sincerely

G.S. Varma
President
Agni Energy Services (P) Limited
1-A/1, KAUTILYA, 6-3-652
Somajiguda
Hyderabad - 500 082
India
Phone: +91 40 661 2172
e-mail: agniesco@hd2.vsnl.net.in

> Dear Mr. Varma,
Respectfully, I agree with your statement that at this time, Biomass shortage is not the primary limiting factor for general usage of Biomass Energy. Gene manipulation may or may not be the best answer, and that will be a well debated topic for many decades to come. The distribution of Biomass can be one factor. Can you please name the factor you are most concerned with, and the solution that you would recommend?
I have read Tom Taylor's presentation of his well researched program. With 22 years of professional, independent study of soil science, I fully agree with his methods. I cannot say with a straight face that no other method of balancing soil fertility exists. I can however, say that his program will certainly accomplish these goals very directly and efficiently. This is due to the comprehensiveness of his studies and methods. His pictures tell the story better than I can. I have found no lies or deception of any type in his extensive, soil research and remediation methods.
Although at this time, many other obstacles are present on the road to sustainable replacement of fossil fuels, limits to the Biomass supply are a major concern. In the future, studies show that even using all of the available Biomass can only supply for example, possibly 10% of the USA energy supply. This is very open to debate and not the point of this discussion.
Many places on the globe are subject to limitations of planting area relative to population and usage. Any country can benefit greatly from increased agriculture production and the benefits of healthy, biologically, balanced soils.
For the benefit of the persons on the other lists, which have not seen Tom's work, I invite them to take a look at the future of agriculture. If all of the points that Tom makes are not taken into consideration, much potential soil productivity is being lost. Any serious grower has something to learn here.
Mr. Taylor's Web address is: Http://agronicsinc.com
This message will be crossposted for all growers in the Biomass energy field. I commend Tom Taylor for being part of the solution to sustainable food and energy independence.
Sincerly,
Daniel Dimiduk,
Shangri-La Research and Development.

From LINVENT at aol.com Tue Aug 27 03:02:59 2002
From: LINVENT at aol.com (LINVENT@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
Message-ID: <30.2c01007a.2a9cb5bd@aol.com>

Dear Daniel,
Thanks for the early morning support. It is after 4am here.
None of the biomass projects which I have seen in large scale are
economically successful for two major reasons, cost of the fuel, (always
positive) increasing with transportation distance, and power value. A recent
presentation in Albuquerque by the McNeal Station manager showed that the
value of electricity which they received from the grid was so low that the
plant was only used for peaking. It was started and stopped several hundred
times a month, whenever the power value exceeded the cost of operation. The
cost of harvesting and transporting biomass was a the major factor in these
economics.
The Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management have massive problems
with the harvested biomass from forest thinnings. There is an initiative to
address the forest management by the Bush administration because of the
recent uncontrollable fires which devastated massive areas of the Southwest
and are now taking the toll on Oregon. The limited factor is the cost of
disposal of millions of tons of biomass throughout widespread areas of the
forested regions of the country. Gasifying it for power production does not
work due to energy values and lack of remote connections for power transport.
Other solutions are needed. It appears as though Thermogenics can play a
major role in this program.
If the density of biomass production was increased per unit area, then
the transportation cost would decline and economics would improve, but there
would still be harvesting cost and the like which would not change much. If
genetics or fertility could change this a great deal, it would still not make
much change in the economics. These economics of harvest and transport is the
limiting factor in biomass utilization.
If islands or areas where fuels are very expensive such as the outbacks
and remote locations are used, that is a much better deal and possibly
feasible for biomasses. European subsidies can assist there.
I cannot respond to the stoves and bioenergy lists as I am not subscribed
to them.

Leland T. Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
7100-F 2nd St. NW Albuquerque, New Mexico USA 87107 Phone: 505-761-5633, fax:
341-0424, website: thermogenics.com.
In order to read the compressed files forwarded under AOL, it is necessary to
download Aladdin's freeware Unstuffit at aladdin.com.

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From yark at u.washington.edu Tue Aug 27 13:12:36 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: ** New Address **
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0208271408200.180560-100000@homer05.u.washington.edu>

Dear Stovers,

I am moving on from NOAA and have to change e-mail addresses. Please note
the new one:

yark@u.washington.edu

Tami

From lpaszner at shaw.ca Tue Aug 27 21:23:11 2002
From: lpaszner at shaw.ca (Laszlo Paszner)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
In-Reply-To: <1bc.c257a56.2a9cabd5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827210121.00a74e38@shawmail>

Dear All,

Interesting observations regarding the future of biomass.. I have some
thoughts of my own as I have been following the energy crisis for nearly 30
years.

My background is in European and N. American forestry but have been
studying tropical forestry and high yielding agricultural crops (sugarcane,
mineral giant reed) as source of biomass. I have advanced degrees in wood
and pulping chemistry. Biomass is only the raw material, the energy form
will be ethanol made from it by wood hydrolysis. To satisfy ethanol needs
for even the automotive fuel needs only world-wide, substantial efforts
will need be made to re-establish the world's forest reserves, and
some. When ethanol will be used as a renewable source of hydrogen in fuel
cells, we will have to double our current biomass production/utilization,
of some 2 billion T/yr to 4 billion T/yr. With new plantations this can be
accomplished.

Ethanol from biomass becomes a transportable and exportable renewable
energy currency. It's manufacture takes about 55 to 65% of the wood mass
and carries roughly 25 % of the carbon (another 25% is lost as CO2 in
fermentation of the sugars to ethanol) available in biomass. Yet, when
ethanol is burned in fuel cells, due to their higher energy conversion
efficiency (up to 72%) the energy/power yield is better than what may be
recovered from co-generation or burning. The advantages of this conversion
mode are: cleaner energy conversion, and better economics. In a well
designed biorefinery the ethanol value is a mere 10-15% of the total value
recoverable from biomass, thereby the power costs from fuel cells can be
held low (around $ 0.045 / kWh). The concept of the biorefinery is similar
to that followed by the oil industry where every barrel of oil generates
$108 worth of gasoline and $27 000 chemicals! We do not do as well in
chemical conversion of biomass but this is the beginning. Chemical
producers are just experimenting again with production of chemicals by
fermentation of sugars. It is a new beginning. The US is making good
progress with ethanol production from grains. By 2010 the US ethanol
production should hit 7.5 billion gal/yr (28.4 billion L/yr). However none
is made yet from biomass; but we are working on it.

Biomass is largely "undersold" as an alternate renewable energy source by
the world authorities and the media. It is lucky if it gets honorable
mention among the renewable energy sources of wind, solar and tidal. The
authorities are brainwashed by the petrochemical companies. This is so
because the technologies for these energy forms are owned by the
petrochemical companies, Shell, BP, Texaco, SUNCOR etc. Promotion of wind,
solar and tidal energy forms is safe, they do not cut into the gasoline
markets. Wide-scale promotion of wind and solar installations for
developing countries channels much needed developmental funds again to the
petrochemical companies (you remember they own these technologies - bought
into them quietly 5-6 years ago) leaving the developing countries further
in debt and dependent without solving their problem (lack of energy in
rural areas). These are "passive" energy forms because they will not
generate wide-spread sustainable jobs after their installation. As a
result, this power form, regardless of its renewable nature, will remain
inaccessible to the poor because they are left without a
dispasible income. Biomass growing and ethanol production are highly
labor intensive (active) job creators. Thus growing biomass (growing the
seedlings, planting, tending and harvesting the forests) requires
continuous attention and will maintain a substantial number of permanent
rural jobs. For every 50 million L/yr ethanol plant, we generate between
75 to 150 permanent, well paying rural jobs. Yet, biomass is not promoted
as the true future renewable energy source.

For the biomass program, fast growing and high yielding crops become
important. Comparatively speaking, trees produce 4-8 T/ha . yr biomass in
the temperate regions, better yields (18-30 T/ha . yr) can be obtained with
both deciduous and coniferous wood species in tropical and sub-tropical
countries. Similar or better yields can be obtained with sugarcane/sweet
sorghum and mineral giant reed; up to 45 T/ha .yr. Exceptionally, up to
60-75 T/ha .yr can be had with Eucalyptus species. So by selective biomass
cultivation the target biomass supply will become available while
simultaneously also solving the world's poverty problems.

If anybody has further question please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Dr. Laszlo Paszner
PASZNER TECHNOLOGIES INC.
2683 Parkway Drive
SURREY, B.C.
CANADA, V4P 1C2
Tel: 604 538 1349
Fax: 604 538 5108
e-mail: lpaszner@shaw.ca

At 06:17 AM 8/27/2002 -0400, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 8/27/02 1:24:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>agniesco@hd2.dot.net.in writes:
>
> > Daniel's comments below
>>
>>I have been a sunscriber to this discussion group for almost two years now
>>and I am suprised at the way certain topics seem to digress from the main
>>focus of this discussion group. I would state that Gasifiers to date are
>>yet to take off in a big way.... the reason is not shortage of fuel
>>(bio-mass, wood etc) to worry about gene manipulation.
>>
>>Sincerely
>>
>>G.S. Varma
>>President
>>Agni Energy Services (P) Limited
>>1-A/1, KAUTILYA, 6-3-652
>>Somajiguda
>>Hyderabad - 500 082
>>India
>>Phone: +91 40 661 2172
>>e-mail: <mailto:agniesco@hd2.vsnl.net.in>agniesco@hd2.vsnl.net.in
>
> > Dear Mr. Varma,
> Respectfully, I agree with your statement that at this time,
> Biomass shortage is not the primary limiting factor for general usage of
> Biomass Energy. Gene manipulation may or may not be the best answer, and
> that will be a well debated topic for many decades to come. The
> distribution of Biomass can be one factor. Can you please name the factor
> you are most concerned with, and the solution that you would recommend?
> I have read Tom Taylor's presentation of his well researched
> program. With 22 years of professional, independent study of soil
> science, I fully agree with his methods. I cannot say with a straight
> face that no other method of balancing soil fertility exists. I can
> however, say that his program will certainly accomplish these goals very
> directly and efficiently. This is due to the comprehensiveness of his
> studies and methods. His pictures tell the story better than I can. I
> have found no lies or deception of any type in his extensive, soil
> research and remediation methods.
> Although at this time, many other obstacles are present on the
> road to sustainable replacement of fossil fuels, limits to the Biomass
> supply are a major concern. In the future, studies show that even using
> all of the available Biomass can only supply for example, possibly 10% of
> the USA energy supply. This is very open to debate and not the point of
> this discussion.
> Many places on the globe are subject to limitations of planting area
> relative to population and usage. Any country can benefit greatly from
> increased agriculture production and the benefits of healthy,
> biologically, balanced soils.
> For the benefit of the persons on the other lists, which have not
> seen Tom's work, I invite them to take a look at the future of
> agriculture. If all of the points that Tom makes are not taken into
> consideration, much potential soil productivity is being lost. Any
> serious grower has something to learn here.
>Mr. Taylor's Web address is: Http://agronicsinc.com
> This message will be crossposted for all growers in the Biomass
> energy field. I commend Tom Taylor for being part of the solution to
> sustainable food and energy independence.
> Sincerly,
> Daniel Dimiduk,
> Shangri-La Research and Development.

-
Bioenergy List Archives:
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Tom Miles, tmiles@trmiles.com
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From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Wed Aug 28 01:28:47 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827210121.00a74e38@shawmail>
Message-ID: <3D6C9708.17370F53@ca.inter.net>

Dear Dr. Paszner

Thank you for your very interesting overview on
bioenergy.

Laszlo Paszner wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
....del...>
> Biomass is largely "undersold" as an alternate renewable energy source by
> the world authorities and the media. It is lucky if it gets honorable
> mention among the renewable energy sources of wind, solar and tidal. The
> authorities are brainwashed by the petrochemical companies. This is so
> because the technologies for these energy forms are owned by the
> petrochemical companies, Shell, BP, Texaco, SUNCOR etc. Promotion of wind,
> solar and tidal energy forms is safe, they do not cut into the gasoline
> markets. Wide-scale promotion of wind and solar installations for
> developing countries channels much needed developmental funds again to the
> petrochemical companies (you remember they own these technologies - bought
> into them quietly 5-6 years ago) leaving the developing countries further
> in debt and dependent without solving their problem (lack of energy in
> rural areas). These are "passive" energy forms because they will not
> generate wide-spread sustainable jobs after their installation. As a
> result, this power form, regardless of its renewable nature, will remain
> inaccessible to the poor because they are left without a
> dispasible income. Biomass growing and ethanol production are highly
> labor intensive (active) job creators. Thus growing biomass (growing the
> seedlings, planting, tending and harvesting the forests) requires
> continuous attention and will maintain a substantial number of permanent
> rural jobs. For every 50 million L/yr ethanol plant, we generate between
> 75 to 150 permanent, well paying rural jobs. Yet, biomass is not promoted
> as the true future renewable energy source.
>
I would suggest that there is not a conspiracy by
multi-National Oil Companies to hold back the
development of biomass. I would suggest that they can
make more money from oil than they can make from
biomass, and that is the reason why they process oil.
It is very dificult to imagine the multi-National Oil
Companies saying "We can make more money on biomass,
but we are not going to do that, because we are oil
processors."

The cruel reality seems to be that it is somewhere
between difficult and impossible to make money from
biomass energy.

> For the biomass program, fast growing and high yielding crops become
> important. Comparatively speaking, trees produce 4-8 T/ha . yr biomass in
> the temperate regions, better yields (18-30 T/ha . yr) can be obtained with
> both deciduous and coniferous wood species in tropical and sub-tropical
> countries. Similar or better yields can be obtained with sugarcane/sweet
> sorghum and mineral giant reed; up to 45 T/ha .yr. Exceptionally, up to
> 60-75 T/ha .yr can be had with Eucalyptus species. So by selective biomass
> cultivation the target biomass supply will become available while
> simultaneously also solving the world's poverty problems.

With a ratio of about 15:1 in terms of tropical
eucalyptus to temperate forestry yields, if biomass
energy even had a chance of being economic, one would
see at least some biomass energy companies making money
from eucalyptus energy processing. Are there any "stand
alone biomass energy successes" anywhere in the world?
There may be some businesses successes because of
peculiar circumstances, such as waste product disposal,
or special incentives. The cruel reality seems to be
that, simply put, there is no money to be made in
biomass energy.

Am I mising something here? Is there anyone making
"stand alone money" in biomass anywhere in the world?
Is it perhaps a case that biomass energy economics are
ruled by a Law that says "The bigger you are, the more
you lose?"

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
>

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Bioenergy List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/bioenergy/200207/

From tombreed at attbi.com Fri Aug 30 05:13:15 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Essay: Wood/Coal/Oil/Gas/RB
Message-ID: <000f01c25026$9f2d7150$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear All:

One of the blessings of the Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable
Technology (CREST) is that we have raggedy "debates"on various issues
surrounding the future energy sources of (so called) Civilization. Another
is that half formed ideas can be floated back and forth and will serve as
fodder for each of us to form our own ideas and all of us reach some partial
consensus.

I am taking this opportunity to write a short essay on the relative merits
of wood/coal/oil/gas to get my own ideas in order and in hopes that others
will aye/nay the ideas and we'll all clarify our ideas of our future energy
sources. If you haven't the time or already know it all, please delete. If
you would like me to send a WORD copy, let me know, since attachments are
becoming non-grat here.

~~~~~

WOOD/COAL/OIL/GAS/REFINED BIOMASS

AS ENERGY SOURCES

WOOD, ( and other forms of BIOMASS) has been the baseline fuel of humans
since the origin of humans and we are differentiated from all other life
species by our adoption of fuels and fire to serve the needs of (so called)
Civilization. We are fortunate indeed to be surrounded by a wide variety of
biomass energy sources, but ill served by the variety of properties - size,
moisture content, flammability, energy forms.

This wide variation in properties can be "fixed" by densification which can
make a fungible fuel out of most forms of biomass. (Densification increases
the mass energy density from (eg) 15 GJ/ton to 18 GJ/ton and the volume
energy density from (eg) 200GJ/m3 to 18 GJ/m3). We spend the money to size
coal, to separate petroleum into its components and to build gas pipelines.
We need to accept that some cost will be required if we want biomass to
serve us as well as we have been served by coal/oil/gas.

Biomass and coal also share the properties of being dual fuels. They
contain sufficient volatile matter so that the gases evolved can be lit to
start combustion. When the volatile components (typically 75% for biomass)
have burned charcoal remains. Charcoal is an excellent fuel in its own
right, but has very different combustion characteristics from the volatiles.
So each biomass fire becomes two kinds of fire with different air/fuel
requirements.

COAL displaced biomass in the 19th Century because it has a higher mass
energy content (28 vs 18 GJ/m3) and a higher volume energy density (15 vs
9 GJ/m3). Small wonder that industrialization adopted coal and steam as
soon as possible, and that coal is still and will continue to be a major
energy source as oil and gas are depleted.

OIL (Petroleum) displaced oil as the prime fuel of the 20th Century for
industrial applications because

· It can be separated into many kinds of fuels for many purposes
(gas, lpg, gasoline, diesel, lube oil, grease, tar.)

· It can be pumped rather than shoveled and so is inherently
cheaper than biomass/coal

· The various products are fungible on world markets since they
are refined to predetermined specifications

· Oil is very energetic (eg 45 GJ/ton) and moderately dense (eg
36 GJ/m3)

GAS (mostly methane) will be a major contender to replace oil as the oil
wells run dry since it occurs many places that oil does not and can be used
to make liquid fuels (such as methanol and FT diesel)
HOWEVER coal/oil/gas (and bitumen, shale, tar sands, gas hydrates .) are non
renewable and biomass will eventually again become King if we develop .

RB (Refined Biomass). Here we come full circle to renewable biomass fuel,
but apply the necessary technology to make it acceptable and indeed superior
to all the other contenders from the global viewpoint. Biomass can be
improved today by ..

· Densification (see above)

· Torrefaction (which selectively removes H2O and CO2, increasing
mass energy density from 18 to 24 GJ/ton

· Densification after torrefaction (DTB, which increase volume
energy density to ~25 GJ/m3)

· Liquefaction which can produce yields of pyrolysis oil of >50%
(mass basis)

· Other processes yet to be developed

Refined Biomass will develop slowly along with the other energy sources and
the needs of Humans are balanced against the needs of the Blue Planet.

Dear All:

One of the blessings of the Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable
Technology, CREST, is that we have raggedy "debates"on various issues
surrounding the future energy sources of (so called) Civilization. Another
is that half formed ideas can be floated back and forth and will serve as
fodder for each of us to form our own ideas and all of us reach some partial
concensus. I am taking this opportunity to write a short essay on the
relative merits of wood/coal/oil/gas in hopes that others will aye/nay the
ideas and we'll all clarify our ideas of our future energy sources. For you
busy people and those who already know it all, please delete. If you would
like a MS Word copy, let me know since attachments are becoming non grata
here at CREST. I look forward to your comments.

~~~~~~~

WOOD/COAL/OIL/GAS/REFINED BIOMASS (RB)

WOOD, ( and other forms of BIOMASS) has been the baseline fuel of humans
since the origin of humans and we are differentiated from all other life
species by our adoption of fuels and fire to serve the needs of (so called)
Civilization. We are fortunate to be surrounded by a wide variety of
biomass energy sources, but ill served by the variety of properties - size,
moisture content, flamability, energy forms.

Biomass and coal share the properties of being dual fuels. They contain
sufficient volatile matter so that the gases evoloved can be lit to start
combustion. When the volatile components (typically 75% for biomass) have
burned charcoal remains. Charcoal is an excellent fuel in its own right,
but has very different combustion characteristics from the volatiles.

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From FMurrl at aol.com Fri Aug 30 05:20:10 2002
From: FMurrl at aol.com (FMurrl@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
Message-ID: <8.2bb12a07.2aa0ca4e@aol.com>

Thanks for your comments, many of which I endorse.

I want to weigh in on production levels mentioned in the segment I have highlighted above. The production levels seem to be stated in hectares. Pardon my Americanism, but I am interpreting (from a source) that a hectare is defined as follows:

hectare (ha) - One hectare is a square hectometer, that is, the area of a square 100 meters on each side: approximately 107 639.1 square feet, 11 959.9 square yards, or 2.471 054 acres.

If my source has that right, your suggested production levels seem quite low. Here in Florida, we expect no less than 40 metric tons per acre per year for fast growing wood (eucalyptus grandes), and our business plans include efforts to move production significantly north of that level. Our current assumption of 40 tonnes per acre implies a production level of about 100 tonnes per hectare on a conservative basis.

It seems to us that where land costs are significant, increasing production on dedicated fuel crop land is essential. I know that we are spending resources on that aspect of this business.

Regards,
Fred Murrell
Biomass Development Co.
Bradenton Florida USA
www.biomassdev.com

From FMurrl at aol.com Fri Aug 30 05:29:25 2002
From: FMurrl at aol.com (FMurrl@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
Message-ID: <113.16942a92.2aa0cc66@aol.com>

Am I missing something here? Is there anyone making
"stand alone money" in biomass anywhere in the world?
Is it perhaps a case that biomass energy economics are
ruled by a Law that says "The bigger you are, the more
you lose?"

Kevin:

Greetings -- again.

Sadly, our evaluations so far here at BDC indicate that there is no joy in biomass-ville, absent either (a) tax credits along the lines of Section 45 (USTC) Production Tax Credits, or (b) an effective renewable portfolio standard imposed on generators by the body politic, or (c) carbon taxes, such as we see in some northern European countries.

We see this as possibly changing, if natural gas climbs to the heights some of us project. Absent that, biomass, which is the best of the renewables on economics right now, will languish in the shadows as we continue our march down the fossil fuel road.

For right now, though, we in the U.S. will await what comes out of the Congressional Conference Committee considering the House and Senate Energy Bills. The Senate bill is quite friendly to biomass, while the House bill has a more fossil-fuel orientation. Maybe we'll know what are to be the new rules by Christmas.

Regards,
Fred Murrell
Biomass Development Co.
Bradenton Florida USA
www.biomassdev.com

From tombreed at attbi.com Fri Aug 30 06:03:13 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: Aluminum griddles...
In-Reply-To: <001a01c241f6$c001d120$331e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <00ae01c2502d$a5a50140$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Stuart and ALL:

Not surprised at the warping of 1/8" steel plates. The problem is that
local heat causes expansion before the whole griddle can get hot.

you might think that aluminum would not be suitable for a griddle, but lets
think about it. Lots of pots and pans in the U.S. are aluminum. It
conducts heat about 10-X the rate of steel (20 X stainless), so that it gets
hot all over and might not warp in moderte thickness. It is MUCH easier to
cast than steel (Melting Point 650 C vs 1450 C).

While aluminum is more expensive than steel, there is a lot of low value
scrap around the U.S., and maybe elsewhere.

Don't use Al for chimney pipe however, as it will definitely melt with a hot
fire. The secret to cheap chimneys in the U.S. is thin gauge metal (usually
blued or galvanized) with the edges crimped for assembly on site. Can be
shipped in nested bundles. One end is crimped so that the 3 foot lengths can
be extended to 6, 9, ft etc. Should last indefinitely if made large enough
so that the 3-6 kW rocket fire doesn't raise above 600C (less than red heat
in the dark). Too small a chimney will get too hot; too large won't draw.

Keep testing ...

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>
To: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>; "ethos" <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
Cc: <cindy@treeswaterpeople.org>; "Richard Fox" <twp@treeswaterpeople.org>
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 5:31 PM
Subject: [ethos] Re: Stove Update and Research Needs

> Hi Dean et al,
>
> I agree that we as a group need to do more to expand our stove research
and
> building efforts. The health effects from indoor and outdoor pollution, as
> highlighted in Asia recently, are a dire warning of worse to come unless
we as a
> group do all that we can now. That includes reaching out to other
organizations
> who might be able to either fund our work or do stove projects themselves.
I met
> recently with staff of PROJECT CONCERN in El Salvador who are interested
in
> collaborating with us to build more stoves in that country. Reaching out
and
> training other big NGOs like CARE, Catholic Relief Services, and others
would
> help to build more stoves and help more people. in many cases, NGOs
working in
> Latin America are still building LORENA type stoves in their projects. We
need
> to make them aware of the new generation of fuel efficient stoves that are
> available. Why waste resources?
>
> I just wanted to point out a few areas of concern on the Justa and
EcoStoves and
> to point out areas that need more research, based on my recent trip to
visit our
> stove projects in Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and El Salvador. The
planchas
> or griddles that we are building on the Justa stoves and EcoStoves are
still a
> problem. The 1/8" steel that we are currently using has a tendency to
warp. When
> the griddles start to warp upwards, we are having our stove builders stand
on
> the griddle the first time that the stove is being fired up. That helps to
> contain the warping. However, that is not a good long-term solution.
>
> PROLENA in Nicaragua has been building a circular 3/8 - 1/4" thick 5 -6"
> diameter metal piece that they have been welding onto the bottom of the
griddle.
> The flame hits the circular addition attached to the griddle and extends
the
> life of the griddle. In this case, the stove owner just replaces the
circular
> piece when it burns out instead of replacing the whole griddle. PROLENA
has also
> reinforced the griddle with angle iron. In spite of these adaptations,
PROLENA
> staff are not satisfied with the griddles and are starting to test using
cast
> iron. Using cast iron for the griddle of course increases the cost and the
> weight of the stoves, but would last much longer. As you know, we are
trying to
> keep the costs of the stoves low, so that more people can afford to buy
them.
> So, cost is definitely an issue in any of the proposed solutions.
>
> As Larry has pointed out previously, the 4" diameter chimneys that are
made of
> galvanized steel also have a limited life span. The longevity of the
chimney
> depends on how often the women is using her stove and how well she
> maintains/cleans her chimney. Dona Justa has been using her stove for 3+
years
> now, and has the same chimney. However, women who make and sell tortillas
will
> have to replace their chimneys sooner, due to higher rates of usage. As
long as
> the chimneys are available locally, women/families can just purchase and
replace
> their chimneys as needed. In more remote rural areas, buying spare chimney
parts
> can be difficult. So, the chimneys are another area of where further R & D
would
> be helpful.
>
> The last area of concern is the Rocket elbow, the combustion chamber of
the
> stove. The hand made ceramic elbows have been holding up fairly well so
far,
> altough PROLENA and AHDESA in Honduras both report some problems with
breakage
> if the women jam in the firewood too far or too hard. Mostly, the problem
has
> been that a high quality clay is needed to withstand the heat, so that
sources
> for the Rocket elbows in each country are limited. The high costs of
tranport
> and breakage in route are drawbacks. In Honduras, using wood ash for
insulation
> is working all right, but has maintenance and performance issues, as the
level
> of the wood ash needs to be maintained or the stoves lose some of their
fuel
> efficiency. So, improved models of the Rocket elbows would be a welcome
> addition. Aprovecho is currrently working on a some experimental models
with
> refractory cement and other materials. I encourage the effort.
>
> Stuart Conway
> Trees, Water & People
>
> Dean Still wrote:
>
> > Dear ETHOS,
> >
> > Hearing about clouds of bad air in Asia, killing untold thousands of
people,
> > caused in part by cooking stoves, wood burning in general, reinforces
for me
> > that we already know that even a simple, inexpensive combustion chamber,
> > like the Rocket, can decrease pollution. We need to inform people, find
> > easier, more practical ways to build many stoves, create insulative
bricks,
> > etc.
> >
> > This report also lends a real sense of urgency to our efforts to learn
how
> > to burn biomass as cleanly as possible. Only a few people are working on
> > this problem! The answer must be practical, easy for governments, aid
> > agencies to adapt, easy to teach, and liked by the user.
> >
> > We are getting closer every year. The Ecostove, the HELPS stove, the
Chiapas
> > Rocket, the double burner South African Rocket, 2 burner stoves, are all
> > great stoves. But hearing that such a serious problem exists in Asia
> > certainly reinforces the seriosness of our quest: to invent,
disseminate,
> > improve stoves.
> >
> > We are in a position of responsibility and I can't think of anyone in
the
> > world who is in a better position to help than us.
> >
> > Kind of scary...
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dean
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rogerio Miranda <rmiranda@entelnet.bo>
> > To: stuart@treeswaterpeople.org <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>;
> > dstill@epud.net <dstill@epud.net>; ronallarson@qwest.net
> > <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> > Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:51 PM
> > Subject: ecostove on BBC
> >
> > >Hi Stuart, Ron and Dean: I was surprise tonite when I saw myself on BBC
> > >World news (Earth Report). I was expecting some notice from the TVE(the
> > >documentary agency), but it seems that they forgot to tell me. Anyway,
if
> > >you have a chance to see BBC Earth report today, perhaps they will
replay
> > >the documentary. It is a bout children exposed to hazard
> > >environment conditions, and the last part include Ecostove. I will try
to
> > >get hold of a copy and share with you. Good timing, when every news
agency
> > >is reporting about the brown cloud over South Asia.
> > >
> > >Go rocket stove.
> > >
> > >Rogerio
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Aug 30 06:41:56 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: Aluminum griddles...
In-Reply-To: <001a01c241f6$c001d120$331e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <20020830134117.GA1345@cybershamanix.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 08:00:49AM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
> Dear Stuart and ALL:
>
> Not surprised at the warping of 1/8" steel plates. The problem is that
> local heat causes expansion before the whole griddle can get hot.
>
> you might think that aluminum would not be suitable for a griddle, but lets
> think about it. Lots of pots and pans in the U.S. are aluminum. It
> conducts heat about 10-X the rate of steel (20 X stainless), so that it gets
> hot all over and might not warp in moderte thickness. It is MUCH easier to
> cast than steel (Melting Point 650 C vs 1450 C).

Yes, but it's not hard to melt an aluminum pot if it's empty. I would expect
an aluminum griddle to melt as well, or at least began to sag or burn thru in
spots. Also it's a bad idea, healthwise, to use aluminum to cook with -- one of
the suspected causes in the rise of Alzheimers is aluminum cookware.

>
> While aluminum is more expensive than steel, there is a lot of low value
> scrap around the U.S., and maybe elsewhere.
>
> Don't use Al for chimney pipe however, as it will definitely melt with a hot
> fire. The secret to cheap chimneys in the U.S. is thin gauge metal (usually
> blued or galvanized)

As I think either Ron or Dean mentioned before, you can't use galvanized metal
in stoves or chimneys, it gives off toxic vapours. Galvanized stove pipe is
meant only for low-temp gas heater vents.

> with the edges crimped for assembly on site. Can be
> shipped in nested bundles. One end is crimped so that the 3 foot lengths can
> be extended to 6, 9, ft etc. Should last indefinitely if made large enough
> so that the 3-6 kW rocket fire doesn't raise above 600C (less than red heat
> in the dark). Too small a chimney will get too hot; too large won't draw.
>
> Keep testing ...
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>
> To: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>; "ethos" <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
> Cc: <cindy@treeswaterpeople.org>; "Richard Fox" <twp@treeswaterpeople.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 5:31 PM
> Subject: [ethos] Re: Stove Update and Research Needs
>
>
> > Hi Dean et al,
> >
> > I agree that we as a group need to do more to expand our stove research
> and
> > building efforts. The health effects from indoor and outdoor pollution, as
> > highlighted in Asia recently, are a dire warning of worse to come unless
> we as a
> > group do all that we can now. That includes reaching out to other
> organizations
> > who might be able to either fund our work or do stove projects themselves.
> I met
> > recently with staff of PROJECT CONCERN in El Salvador who are interested
> in
> > collaborating with us to build more stoves in that country. Reaching out
> and
> > training other big NGOs like CARE, Catholic Relief Services, and others
> would
> > help to build more stoves and help more people. in many cases, NGOs
> working in
> > Latin America are still building LORENA type stoves in their projects. We
> need
> > to make them aware of the new generation of fuel efficient stoves that are
> > available. Why waste resources?
> >
> > I just wanted to point out a few areas of concern on the Justa and
> EcoStoves and
> > to point out areas that need more research, based on my recent trip to
> visit our
> > stove projects in Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and El Salvador. The
> planchas
> > or griddles that we are building on the Justa stoves and EcoStoves are
> still a
> > problem. The 1/8" steel that we are currently using has a tendency to
> warp. When
> > the griddles start to warp upwards, we are having our stove builders stand
> on
> > the griddle the first time that the stove is being fired up. That helps to
> > contain the warping. However, that is not a good long-term solution.
> >
> > PROLENA in Nicaragua has been building a circular 3/8 - 1/4" thick 5 -6"
> > diameter metal piece that they have been welding onto the bottom of the
> griddle.
> > The flame hits the circular addition attached to the griddle and extends
> the
> > life of the griddle. In this case, the stove owner just replaces the
> circular
> > piece when it burns out instead of replacing the whole griddle. PROLENA
> has also
> > reinforced the griddle with angle iron. In spite of these adaptations,
> PROLENA
> > staff are not satisfied with the griddles and are starting to test using
> cast
> > iron. Using cast iron for the griddle of course increases the cost and the
> > weight of the stoves, but would last much longer. As you know, we are
> trying to
> > keep the costs of the stoves low, so that more people can afford to buy
> them.
> > So, cost is definitely an issue in any of the proposed solutions.
> >
> > As Larry has pointed out previously, the 4" diameter chimneys that are
> made of
> > galvanized steel also have a limited life span. The longevity of the
> chimney
> > depends on how often the women is using her stove and how well she
> > maintains/cleans her chimney. Dona Justa has been using her stove for 3+
> years
> > now, and has the same chimney. However, women who make and sell tortillas
> will
> > have to replace their chimneys sooner, due to higher rates of usage. As
> long as
> > the chimneys are available locally, women/families can just purchase and
> replace
> > their chimneys as needed. In more remote rural areas, buying spare chimney
> parts
> > can be difficult. So, the chimneys are another area of where further R & D
> would
> > be helpful.
> >
> > The last area of concern is the Rocket elbow, the combustion chamber of
> the
> > stove. The hand made ceramic elbows have been holding up fairly well so
> far,
> > altough PROLENA and AHDESA in Honduras both report some problems with
> breakage
> > if the women jam in the firewood too far or too hard. Mostly, the problem
> has
> > been that a high quality clay is needed to withstand the heat, so that
> sources
> > for the Rocket elbows in each country are limited. The high costs of
> tranport
> > and breakage in route are drawbacks. In Honduras, using wood ash for
> insulation
> > is working all right, but has maintenance and performance issues, as the
> level
> > of the wood ash needs to be maintained or the stoves lose some of their
> fuel
> > efficiency. So, improved models of the Rocket elbows would be a welcome
> > addition. Aprovecho is currrently working on a some experimental models
> with
> > refractory cement and other materials. I encourage the effort.
> >
> > Stuart Conway
> > Trees, Water & People
> >
> > Dean Still wrote:
> >
> > > Dear ETHOS,
> > >
> > > Hearing about clouds of bad air in Asia, killing untold thousands of
> people,
> > > caused in part by cooking stoves, wood burning in general, reinforces
> for me
> > > that we already know that even a simple, inexpensive combustion chamber,
> > > like the Rocket, can decrease pollution. We need to inform people, find
> > > easier, more practical ways to build many stoves, create insulative
> bricks,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > This report also lends a real sense of urgency to our efforts to learn
> how
> > > to burn biomass as cleanly as possible. Only a few people are working on
> > > this problem! The answer must be practical, easy for governments, aid
> > > agencies to adapt, easy to teach, and liked by the user.
> > >
> > > We are getting closer every year. The Ecostove, the HELPS stove, the
> Chiapas
> > > Rocket, the double burner South African Rocket, 2 burner stoves, are all
> > > great stoves. But hearing that such a serious problem exists in Asia
> > > certainly reinforces the seriosness of our quest: to invent,
> disseminate,
> > > improve stoves.
> > >
> > > We are in a position of responsibility and I can't think of anyone in
> the
> > > world who is in a better position to help than us.
> > >
> > > Kind of scary...
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Dean
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rogerio Miranda <rmiranda@entelnet.bo>
> > > To: stuart@treeswaterpeople.org <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>;
> > > dstill@epud.net <dstill@epud.net>; ronallarson@qwest.net
> > > <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> > > Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:51 PM
> > > Subject: ecostove on BBC
> > >
> > > >Hi Stuart, Ron and Dean: I was surprise tonite when I saw myself on BBC
> > > >World news (Earth Report). I was expecting some notice from the TVE(the
> > > >documentary agency), but it seems that they forgot to tell me. Anyway,
> if
> > > >you have a chance to see BBC Earth report today, perhaps they will
> replay
> > > >the documentary. It is a bout children exposed to hazard
> > > >environment conditions, and the last part include Ecostove. I will try
> to
> > > >get hold of a copy and share with you. Good timing, when every news
> agency
> > > >is reporting about the brown cloud over South Asia.
> > > >
> > > >Go rocket stove.
> > > >
> > > >Rogerio
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
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> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
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> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Aug 30 07:15:05 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Essay: Wood/Coal/Oil/Gas/RB
In-Reply-To: <000f01c25026$9f2d7150$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <20020830141527.GA1820@cybershamanix.com>

Excellent essay, Tom. I think the world needs a lot more discussion,
especially in the mainstream media, regarding refined biomass.

On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 07:10:31AM -0600, Tom Reed wrote:
> Dear All:
>
> One of the blessings of the Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable
> Technology (CREST) is that we have raggedy "debates"on various issues
> surrounding the future energy sources of (so called) Civilization. Another
> is that half formed ideas can be floated back and forth and will serve as
> fodder for each of us to form our own ideas and all of us reach some partial
> consensus.
>
> I am taking this opportunity to write a short essay on the relative merits
> of wood/coal/oil/gas to get my own ideas in order and in hopes that others
> will aye/nay the ideas and we'll all clarify our ideas of our future energy
> sources. If you haven't the time or already know it all, please delete. If
> you would like me to send a WORD copy, let me know, since attachments are
> becoming non-grat here.
>
>
> ~~~~~
>
> WOOD/COAL/OIL/GAS/REFINED BIOMASS
>
> AS ENERGY SOURCES
>
> WOOD, ( and other forms of BIOMASS) has been the baseline fuel of humans
> since the origin of humans and we are differentiated from all other life
> species by our adoption of fuels and fire to serve the needs of (so called)
> Civilization. We are fortunate indeed to be surrounded by a wide variety of
> biomass energy sources, but ill served by the variety of properties - size,
> moisture content, flammability, energy forms.
>
> This wide variation in properties can be "fixed" by densification which can
> make a fungible fuel out of most forms of biomass. (Densification increases
> the mass energy density from (eg) 15 GJ/ton to 18 GJ/ton and the volume
> energy density from (eg) 200GJ/m3 to 18 GJ/m3). We spend the money to size
> coal, to separate petroleum into its components and to build gas pipelines.
> We need to accept that some cost will be required if we want biomass to
> serve us as well as we have been served by coal/oil/gas.
>
> Biomass and coal also share the properties of being dual fuels. They
> contain sufficient volatile matter so that the gases evolved can be lit to
> start combustion. When the volatile components (typically 75% for biomass)
> have burned charcoal remains. Charcoal is an excellent fuel in its own
> right, but has very different combustion characteristics from the volatiles.
> So each biomass fire becomes two kinds of fire with different air/fuel
> requirements.
>
> COAL displaced biomass in the 19th Century because it has a higher mass
> energy content (28 vs 18 GJ/m3) and a higher volume energy density (15 vs
> 9 GJ/m3). Small wonder that industrialization adopted coal and steam as
> soon as possible, and that coal is still and will continue to be a major
> energy source as oil and gas are depleted.
>
> OIL (Petroleum) displaced oil as the prime fuel of the 20th Century for
> industrial applications because
>
> · It can be separated into many kinds of fuels for many purposes
> (gas, lpg, gasoline, diesel, lube oil, grease, tar.)
>
> · It can be pumped rather than shoveled and so is inherently
> cheaper than biomass/coal
>
> · The various products are fungible on world markets since they
> are refined to predetermined specifications
>
> · Oil is very energetic (eg 45 GJ/ton) and moderately dense (eg
> 36 GJ/m3)
>
> GAS (mostly methane) will be a major contender to replace oil as the oil
> wells run dry since it occurs many places that oil does not and can be used
> to make liquid fuels (such as methanol and FT diesel)
> HOWEVER coal/oil/gas (and bitumen, shale, tar sands, gas hydrates .) are non
> renewable and biomass will eventually again become King if we develop .
>
> RB (Refined Biomass). Here we come full circle to renewable biomass fuel,
> but apply the necessary technology to make it acceptable and indeed superior
> to all the other contenders from the global viewpoint. Biomass can be
> improved today by ..
>
> · Densification (see above)
>
> · Torrefaction (which selectively removes H2O and CO2, increasing
> mass energy density from 18 to 24 GJ/ton
>
> · Densification after torrefaction (DTB, which increase volume
> energy density to ~25 GJ/m3)
>
> · Liquefaction which can produce yields of pyrolysis oil of >50%
> (mass basis)
>
> · Other processes yet to be developed
>
> Refined Biomass will develop slowly along with the other energy sources and
> the needs of Humans are balanced against the needs of the Blue Planet.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear All:
>
> One of the blessings of the Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable
> Technology, CREST, is that we have raggedy "debates"on various issues
> surrounding the future energy sources of (so called) Civilization. Another
> is that half formed ideas can be floated back and forth and will serve as
> fodder for each of us to form our own ideas and all of us reach some partial
> concensus. I am taking this opportunity to write a short essay on the
> relative merits of wood/coal/oil/gas in hopes that others will aye/nay the
> ideas and we'll all clarify our ideas of our future energy sources. For you
> busy people and those who already know it all, please delete. If you would
> like a MS Word copy, let me know since attachments are becoming non grata
> here at CREST. I look forward to your comments.
>
> ~~~~~~~
>
> WOOD/COAL/OIL/GAS/REFINED BIOMASS (RB)
>
> WOOD, ( and other forms of BIOMASS) has been the baseline fuel of humans
> since the origin of humans and we are differentiated from all other life
> species by our adoption of fuels and fire to serve the needs of (so called)
> Civilization. We are fortunate to be surrounded by a wide variety of
> biomass energy sources, but ill served by the variety of properties - size,
> moisture content, flamability, energy forms.
>
> Biomass and coal share the properties of being dual fuels. They contain
> sufficient volatile matter so that the gases evoloved can be lit to start
> combustion. When the volatile components (typically 75% for biomass) have
> burned charcoal remains. Charcoal is an excellent fuel in its own right,
> but has very different combustion characteristics from the volatiles.
>
>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From dglickd at pipeline.com Fri Aug 30 07:25:48 2002
From: dglickd at pipeline.com (Dick Glick)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
In-Reply-To: <8.2bb12a07.2aa0ca4e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007701c25039$2c5374a0$0300a8c0@cframcomp>

Hello All --

Moringa -- I've seen this project in Nicaragua -- offers high
biomass + seed related products. Might be the winner in this production
contest -- at 120 dry-ton/hectare-year -- note dry-ton are probably
metric -- from this source.

Best, Dick
www.CorpFutRes.com

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/ARTICLE/AGRIPPA/551_EN.HTM
"2. Moringa oleifera
General information
Moringa oleifera Lam. or 'horse-radish' tree (so-called
because of the taste of a condiment prepared from the roots) or 'drumstick' tree
(arising from the shape of the pods), or `never-die-tree' is a multipurpose tree
that thrives in both tropical and sub-tropical conditions. It is native to the
sub-Himalayan regions of north-west India. This tree is now indigenous to many
countries in Africa, Arabia, South East Asia, the Pacific and Caribbean Islands
and South America, producing flowers and fruits continuously. Originally
considered a tree of hot, semi-arid regions with annual rainfall 250 - 1500 mm,
it has also been found to be well adapted to hot, humid, wet conditions with
annual rainfall in excess of 3000 mm. Moringa can grow in a variety of soil
conditions, from well drained sandy or loamy soils (which the plants prefer) to
heavier clay soils. The tree is reported to be tolerant of light frosts and can
be established in slightly alkaline soils up to pH 9. Currently, the young
leaves and pods are used as vegetables, the oil extracted from kernels for
culinary and industrial purposes, the water extract of the kernels as a water
purifying agent, the seed cake as fertiliser, and various parts of the tree in
traditional medicine (Foidl et al., 2001).
The tree is fast growing and high yielding (an estimated 3.0 t
seed / ha compared to average yields of sunflower and groundnut of 2.0 and 0.5 t
/ ha respectively). It can also be planted for forage production under intensive
farming conditions. Initial trials in Nicaragua have shown a high biomass
production of up to 120 tons dry matter / ha / yr, in eight cuttings after
planting 1 million seeds / ha (Makkar and Becker, 1999a). The plant starts
bearing pods 6 - 8 months after planting but regular bearing commences after the
second year. The tree bears for 30 - 40 years. The drought tolerant nature of
the tree makes it particularly suited to those marginal areas where the costs
associated with the cultivation and harvesting of other commercial crops are
high"

For the biomass
program, fast growing and high yielding crops become important.
Comparatively speaking, trees produce 4-8 T/ha . yr biomass in the temperate
regions, better yields (18-30 T/ha . yr) can be obtained with both deciduous
and coniferous wood species in tropical and sub-tropical countries.
Similar or better yields can be obtained with sugarcane/sweet sorghum and
mineral giant reed; up to 45 T/ha .yr. Exceptionally, up to 60-75 T/ha
.yr can be had with Eucalyptus species. So by selective biomass
cultivation the target biomass supply will become available while
simultaneously also solving the world's poverty problems.
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">Thanks for your comments, many of which I
endorse.If my source has that right, your suggested production levels
seem quite low. Here in Florida, we expect no less than 40 metric tons
per acre per year for fast growing wood (eucalyptus grandes), and our
business plans include efforts to move production significantly north of that
level. Our current assumption of 40 tonnes per acre implies a production level
of about 100 tonnes per hectare on a conservative basis.It seems to us
that where land costs are significant, increasing production on dedicated fuel
crop land is essential. I know that we are spending resources on that aspect
of this business. Regards,Fred MurrellBiomass Development
Co.Bradenton Florida USAwww.biomassdev.com

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Fri Aug 30 10:40:55 2002
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: Aluminum griddles...
In-Reply-To: <001a01c241f6$c001d120$331e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <3D6FBBDC.6EE901D6@legacyfound.org>

Just an off the cuff obsevation about the riddle of the griddle:
A griddle of steel with a slight dish shape to it would allow
that expansion with less chance of warping because the stress causing the
expansion can be expressed through a slight deepening of the dish.
Thoughts ?
R Stanley
Tom Reed wrote:
Dear Stuart and ALL:
Not surprised at the warping of 1/8" steel plates. The problem
is that
local heat causes expansion before the whole griddle can get hot.
you might think that aluminum would not be suitable for a griddle, but
lets
think about it. Lots of pots and pans in the U.S. are aluminum.
It
conducts heat about 10-X the rate of steel (20 X stainless), so that
it gets
hot all over and might not warp in moderte thickness. It is MUCH
easier to
cast than steel (Melting Point 650 C vs 1450 C).
While aluminum is more expensive than steel, there is a lot of low value
scrap around the U.S., and maybe elsewhere.
Don't use Al for chimney pipe however, as it will definitely melt with
a hot
fire. The secret to cheap chimneys in the U.S. is thin gauge
metal (usually
blued or galvanized) with the edges crimped for assembly on site.
Can be
shipped in nested bundles. One end is crimped so that the 3 foot lengths
can
be extended to 6, 9, ft etc. Should last indefinitely if made
large enough
so that the 3-6 kW rocket fire doesn't raise above 600C (less than
red heat
in the dark). Too small a chimney will get too hot; too large
won't draw.
Keep testing ...
Yours truly,
TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>
To: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>; "ethos" <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
Cc: <cindy@treeswaterpeople.org>; "Richard Fox" <twp@treeswaterpeople.org>
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 5:31 PM
Subject: [ethos] Re: Stove Update and Research Needs
> Hi Dean et al,
>
> I agree that we as a group need to do more to expand our stove research
and
> building efforts. The health effects from indoor and outdoor pollution,
as
> highlighted in Asia recently, are a dire warning of worse to come
unless
we as a
> group do all that we can now. That includes reaching out to other
organizations
> who might be able to either fund our work or do stove projects themselves.
I met
> recently with staff of PROJECT CONCERN in El Salvador who are interested
in
> collaborating with us to build more stoves in that country. Reaching
out
and
> training other big NGOs like CARE, Catholic Relief Services, and
others
would
> help to build more stoves and help more people. in many cases,
NGOs
working in
> Latin America are still building LORENA type stoves in their projects.
We
need
> to make them aware of the new generation of fuel efficient stoves
that are
> available. Why waste resources?
>
> I just wanted to point out a few areas of concern on the Justa and
EcoStoves and
> to point out areas that need more research, based on my recent trip
to
visit our
> stove projects in Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and El Salvador.
The
planchas
> or griddles that we are building on the Justa stoves and EcoStoves
are
still a
> problem. The 1/8" steel that we are currently using has a tendency
to
warp. When
> the griddles start to warp upwards, we are having our stove builders
stand
on
> the griddle the first time that the stove is being fired up. That
helps to
> contain the warping. However, that is not a good long-term solution.
>
> PROLENA in Nicaragua has been building a circular 3/8 - 1/4" thick
5 -6"
> diameter metal piece that they have been welding onto the bottom
of the
griddle.
> The flame hits the circular addition attached to the griddle and
extends
the
> life of the griddle. In this case, the stove owner just replaces
the
circular
> piece when it burns out instead of replacing the whole griddle. PROLENA
has also
> reinforced the griddle with angle iron. In spite of these adaptations,
PROLENA
> staff are not satisfied with the griddles and are starting to test
using
cast
> iron. Using cast iron for the griddle of course increases the cost
and the
> weight of the stoves, but would last much longer. As you know, we
are
trying to
> keep the costs of the stoves low, so that more people can afford
to buy
them.
> So, cost is definitely an issue in any of the proposed solutions.
>
> As Larry has pointed out previously, the 4" diameter chimneys that
are
made of
> galvanized steel also have a limited life span. The longevity of
the
chimney
> depends on how often the women is using her stove and how well she
> maintains/cleans her chimney. Dona Justa has been using her stove
for 3+
years
> now, and has the same chimney. However, women who make and sell tortillas
will
> have to replace their chimneys sooner, due to higher rates of usage.
As
long as
> the chimneys are available locally, women/families can just purchase
and
replace
> their chimneys as needed. In more remote rural areas, buying spare
chimney
parts
> can be difficult. So, the chimneys are another area of where further
R & D
would
> be helpful.
>
> The last area of concern is the Rocket elbow, the combustion chamber
of
the
> stove. The hand made ceramic elbows have been holding up fairly well
so
far,
> altough PROLENA and AHDESA in Honduras both report some problems
with
breakage
> if the women jam in the firewood too far or too hard. Mostly, the
problem
has
> been that a high quality clay is needed to withstand the heat, so
that
sources
> for the Rocket elbows in each country are limited. The high costs
of
tranport
> and breakage in route are drawbacks. In Honduras, using wood ash
for
insulation
> is working all right, but has maintenance and performance issues,
as the
level
> of the wood ash needs to be maintained or the stoves lose some of
their
fuel
> efficiency. So, improved models of the Rocket elbows would
be a welcome
> addition. Aprovecho is currrently working on a some experimental
models
with
> refractory cement and other materials. I encourage the effort.
>
> Stuart Conway
> Trees, Water & People
>
> Dean Still wrote:
>
> > Dear ETHOS,
> >
> > Hearing about clouds of bad air in Asia, killing untold thousands
of
people,
> > caused in part by cooking stoves, wood burning in general, reinforces
for me
> > that we already know that even a simple, inexpensive combustion
chamber,
> > like the Rocket, can decrease pollution. We need to inform
people, find
> > easier, more practical ways to build many stoves, create insulative
bricks,
> > etc.
> >
> > This report also lends a real sense of urgency to our efforts to
learn
how
> > to burn biomass as cleanly as possible. Only a few people are working
on
> > this problem! The answer must be practical, easy for governments,
aid
> > agencies to adapt, easy to teach, and liked by the user.
> >
> > We are getting closer every year. The Ecostove, the HELPS stove,
the
Chiapas
> > Rocket, the double burner South African Rocket, 2 burner stoves,
are all
> > great stoves. But hearing that such a serious problem exists in
Asia
> > certainly reinforces the seriosness of our quest: to invent,
disseminate,
> > improve stoves.
> >
> > We are in a position of responsibility and I can't think
of anyone in
the
> > world who is in a better position to help than us.
> >
> > Kind of scary...
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dean
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rogerio Miranda <rmiranda@entelnet.bo>
> > To: stuart@treeswaterpeople.org <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>;
> > dstill@epud.net <dstill@epud.net>; ronallarson@qwest.net
> > <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> > Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:51 PM
> > Subject: ecostove on BBC
> >
> > >Hi Stuart, Ron and Dean: I was surprise tonite when I saw myself
on BBC
> > >World news (Earth Report). I was expecting some notice from the
TVE(the
> > >documentary agency), but it seems that they forgot to tell me.
Anyway,
if
> > >you have a chance to see BBC Earth report today, perhaps they
will
replay
> > >the documentary. It is a bout children exposed to hazard
> > >environment conditions, and the last part include Ecostove.
I will try
to
> > >get hold of a copy and share with you. Good timing, when
every news
agency
> > >is reporting about the brown cloud over South Asia.
> > >
> > >Go rocket stove.
> > >
> > >Rogerio
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
-
Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
http://www.bioenergy2002.org
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html
Bioenergy
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
Gasification
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html
Carbon
>
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From imain at stemwinder.org Fri Aug 30 10:54:01 2002
From: imain at stemwinder.org (Ian Main)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: Aluminum griddles...
In-Reply-To: <001a01c241f6$c001d120$331e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <20020830115201.A17230@slug.stemwinder.org>

Another advantage of steel is all the iron you get! :) Seriously
though, the iron will leach into your food (especially cooking
acidic things like tomatoes etc). They actually recommend you use
cast iron frying pans when you're having trouble getting enough iron
in your diet.

Ian

I personally don't like to cook things in/on aluminum.
On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 11:39:27AM -0700, Richard Stanley wrote:
> Just an off the cuff obsevation about the riddle of the griddle:
> A griddle of steel with a slight dish shape to it would allow that expansion
> with less chance of warping because the stress causing the expansion can be
> expressed through a slight deepening of the dish. Thoughts ?
> R Stanley
>
> Tom Reed wrote:
>
> > Dear Stuart and ALL:
> >
> > Not surprised at the warping of 1/8" steel plates. The problem is that
> > local heat causes expansion before the whole griddle can get hot.
> >
> > you might think that aluminum would not be suitable for a griddle, but lets
> > think about it. Lots of pots and pans in the U.S. are aluminum. It
> > conducts heat about 10-X the rate of steel (20 X stainless), so that it gets
> > hot all over and might not warp in moderte thickness. It is MUCH easier to
> > cast than steel (Melting Point 650 C vs 1450 C).
> >
> > While aluminum is more expensive than steel, there is a lot of low value
> > scrap around the U.S., and maybe elsewhere.
> >
> > Don't use Al for chimney pipe however, as it will definitely melt with a hot
> > fire. The secret to cheap chimneys in the U.S. is thin gauge metal (usually
> > blued or galvanized) with the edges crimped for assembly on site. Can be
> > shipped in nested bundles. One end is crimped so that the 3 foot lengths can
> > be extended to 6, 9, ft etc. Should last indefinitely if made large enough
> > so that the 3-6 kW rocket fire doesn't raise above 600C (less than red heat
> > in the dark). Too small a chimney will get too hot; too large won't draw.
> >
> > Keep testing ...
> >
> > Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>
> > To: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>; "ethos" <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
> > Cc: <cindy@treeswaterpeople.org>; "Richard Fox" <twp@treeswaterpeople.org>
> > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 5:31 PM
> > Subject: [ethos] Re: Stove Update and Research Needs
> >
> > > Hi Dean et al,
> > >
> > > I agree that we as a group need to do more to expand our stove research
> > and
> > > building efforts. The health effects from indoor and outdoor pollution, as
> > > highlighted in Asia recently, are a dire warning of worse to come unless
> > we as a
> > > group do all that we can now. That includes reaching out to other
> > organizations
> > > who might be able to either fund our work or do stove projects themselves.
> > I met
> > > recently with staff of PROJECT CONCERN in El Salvador who are interested
> > in
> > > collaborating with us to build more stoves in that country. Reaching out
> > and
> > > training other big NGOs like CARE, Catholic Relief Services, and others
> > would
> > > help to build more stoves and help more people. in many cases, NGOs
> > working in
> > > Latin America are still building LORENA type stoves in their projects. We
> > need
> > > to make them aware of the new generation of fuel efficient stoves that are
> > > available. Why waste resources?
> > >
> > > I just wanted to point out a few areas of concern on the Justa and
> > EcoStoves and
> > > to point out areas that need more research, based on my recent trip to
> > visit our
> > > stove projects in Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and El Salvador. The
> > planchas
> > > or griddles that we are building on the Justa stoves and EcoStoves are
> > still a
> > > problem. The 1/8" steel that we are currently using has a tendency to
> > warp. When
> > > the griddles start to warp upwards, we are having our stove builders stand
> > on
> > > the griddle the first time that the stove is being fired up. That helps to
> > > contain the warping. However, that is not a good long-term solution.
> > >
> > > PROLENA in Nicaragua has been building a circular 3/8 - 1/4" thick 5 -6"
> > > diameter metal piece that they have been welding onto the bottom of the
> > griddle.
> > > The flame hits the circular addition attached to the griddle and extends
> > the
> > > life of the griddle. In this case, the stove owner just replaces the
> > circular
> > > piece when it burns out instead of replacing the whole griddle. PROLENA
> > has also
> > > reinforced the griddle with angle iron. In spite of these adaptations,
> > PROLENA
> > > staff are not satisfied with the griddles and are starting to test using
> > cast
> > > iron. Using cast iron for the griddle of course increases the cost and the
> > > weight of the stoves, but would last much longer. As you know, we are
> > trying to
> > > keep the costs of the stoves low, so that more people can afford to buy
> > them.
> > > So, cost is definitely an issue in any of the proposed solutions.
> > >
> > > As Larry has pointed out previously, the 4" diameter chimneys that are
> > made of
> > > galvanized steel also have a limited life span. The longevity of the
> > chimney
> > > depends on how often the women is using her stove and how well she
> > > maintains/cleans her chimney. Dona Justa has been using her stove for 3+
> > years
> > > now, and has the same chimney. However, women who make and sell tortillas
> > will
> > > have to replace their chimneys sooner, due to higher rates of usage. As
> > long as
> > > the chimneys are available locally, women/families can just purchase and
> > replace
> > > their chimneys as needed. In more remote rural areas, buying spare chimney
> > parts
> > > can be difficult. So, the chimneys are another area of where further R & D
> > would
> > > be helpful.
> > >
> > > The last area of concern is the Rocket elbow, the combustion chamber of
> > the
> > > stove. The hand made ceramic elbows have been holding up fairly well so
> > far,
> > > altough PROLENA and AHDESA in Honduras both report some problems with
> > breakage
> > > if the women jam in the firewood too far or too hard. Mostly, the problem
> > has
> > > been that a high quality clay is needed to withstand the heat, so that
> > sources
> > > for the Rocket elbows in each country are limited. The high costs of
> > tranport
> > > and breakage in route are drawbacks. In Honduras, using wood ash for
> > insulation
> > > is working all right, but has maintenance and performance issues, as the
> > level
> > > of the wood ash needs to be maintained or the stoves lose some of their
> > fuel
> > > efficiency. So, improved models of the Rocket elbows would be a welcome
> > > addition. Aprovecho is currrently working on a some experimental models
> > with
> > > refractory cement and other materials. I encourage the effort.
> > >
> > > Stuart Conway
> > > Trees, Water & People
> > >
> > > Dean Still wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear ETHOS,
> > > >
> > > > Hearing about clouds of bad air in Asia, killing untold thousands of
> > people,
> > > > caused in part by cooking stoves, wood burning in general, reinforces
> > for me
> > > > that we already know that even a simple, inexpensive combustion chamber,
> > > > like the Rocket, can decrease pollution. We need to inform people, find
> > > > easier, more practical ways to build many stoves, create insulative
> > bricks,
> > > > etc.
> > > >
> > > > This report also lends a real sense of urgency to our efforts to learn
> > how
> > > > to burn biomass as cleanly as possible. Only a few people are working on
> > > > this problem! The answer must be practical, easy for governments, aid
> > > > agencies to adapt, easy to teach, and liked by the user.
> > > >
> > > > We are getting closer every year. The Ecostove, the HELPS stove, the
> > Chiapas
> > > > Rocket, the double burner South African Rocket, 2 burner stoves, are all
> > > > great stoves. But hearing that such a serious problem exists in Asia
> > > > certainly reinforces the seriosness of our quest: to invent,
> > disseminate,
> > > > improve stoves.
> > > >
> > > > We are in a position of responsibility and I can't think of anyone in
> > the
> > > > world who is in a better position to help than us.
> > > >
> > > > Kind of scary...
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Dean
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Rogerio Miranda <rmiranda@entelnet.bo>
> > > > To: stuart@treeswaterpeople.org <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>;
> > > > dstill@epud.net <dstill@epud.net>; ronallarson@qwest.net
> > > > <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> > > > Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:51 PM
> > > > Subject: ecostove on BBC
> > > >
> > > > >Hi Stuart, Ron and Dean: I was surprise tonite when I saw myself on BBC
> > > > >World news (Earth Report). I was expecting some notice from the TVE(the
> > > > >documentary agency), but it seems that they forgot to tell me. Anyway,
> > if
> > > > >you have a chance to see BBC Earth report today, perhaps they will
> > replay
> > > > >the documentary. It is a bout children exposed to hazard
> > > > >environment conditions, and the last part include Ecostove. I will try
> > to
> > > > >get hold of a copy and share with you. Good timing, when every news
> > agency
> > > > >is reporting about the brown cloud over South Asia.
> > > > >
> > > > >Go rocket stove.
> > > > >
> > > > >Rogerio
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> > >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > >
> > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> > >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Fri Aug 30 13:19:20 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: ScientificAmerican.com: New Process Could Harness Hydrogen Fuel From Plants
Message-ID: <200208302107.RAA24323@crest.solarhost.com>

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Aug 31 11:08:50 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (ronallarson@qwest.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: Health Issues and Stoves at the WSSD
Message-ID: <1250-2200286311964613@M2W056.mail2web.com>

Stovers: (Apologies if this was sent twice - I am on a strange system that
didn't seem to behave correctly just now.)

Had a good day today - finally! Went to an all day meeting sponsored by
WHO. Many persons and many funders mentioning stoves.

I have been concentrating here on the energy side of stoves (my
background), and a little on gender topics – but decided last night to
start finding a health venue to penetrate. Surprisingly a really big one
popped up today at the same venue where I hang out mostly (Ubuntu Village)
– this invite-only (I got in with my reporter’s credentials) “side-event”
meeting was sponsored by WHO. – and especially the WHO group here in
Johannesburg.

All the groups potentially interested in our topic were there: UNICEF,
USAID, NIH, EPA, UNEP, WHO Commission on Macroeconomics and Health, etc).
Talked to most of these and got positive reactions in most cases on the
importance of stoves to their programs. Also had nice talks with several
national researchers who will be joining “stoves”. Received interesting
first phase report by person here in SA doing a PhD on the social science
side of stove interventions.

The magic phrase in establishing my credentials was to say that Kirk Smith
was a member of the “stoves list. I believe we all owe Kirk a big vote of
thanks for establishing the serious health consequences of stoves. His
work may be paying off finally!!

More coming later.

Ron

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

From tmiles at trmiles.com Sat Aug 31 21:22:13 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:04 2004
Subject: Health Issues and Stoves at the WSSD
In-Reply-To: <1250-2200286311964613@M2W056.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <000601c25177$2c2d0060$0301a8c0@tomslaptop>

Ron,

Thanks from all of us for your reporting and participation. We look forward
to your news and comment.

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: <ronallarson@qwest.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 12:06 PM
Subject: Health Issues and Stoves at the WSSD

> Stovers: (Apologies if this was sent twice - I am on a strange system
that
> didn't seem to behave correctly just now.)
>
> Had a good day today - finally! Went to an all day meeting sponsored by
> WHO. Many persons and many funders mentioning stoves.
>
> I have been concentrating here on the energy side of stoves (my
> background), and a little on gender topics - but decided last night to
> start finding a health venue to penetrate. Surprisingly a really big one
> popped up today at the same venue where I hang out mostly (Ubuntu Village)
> - this invite-only (I got in with my reporter's credentials) "side-event"
> meeting was sponsored by WHO. - and especially the WHO group here in
> Johannesburg.
>
> All the groups potentially interested in our topic were there: UNICEF,
> USAID, NIH, EPA, UNEP, WHO Commission on Macroeconomics and Health, etc).
> Talked to most of these and got positive reactions in most cases on the
> importance of stoves to their programs. Also had nice talks with several
> national researchers who will be joining "stoves". Received interesting
> first phase report by person here in SA doing a PhD on the social science
> side of stove interventions.
>
> The magic phrase in establishing my credentials was to say that Kirk
Smith
> was a member of the "stoves list. I believe we all owe Kirk a big vote of
> thanks for establishing the serious health consequences of stoves. His
> work may be paying off finally!!
>
> More coming later.
>
> Ron
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

August 2002 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive