March 2002 Gasification Archive

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Fri Mar 1 16:49:04 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004
Subject: Coal cooking summary
Message-ID: <151.9c27725.29b197ac@aol.com>

Subj:Re: Coal cooking summary
Date:3/1/02 3:45:52 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:Carefreeland
To:tombreed@attbi.com

In a message dated 3/1/02 2:44:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, tombreed@attbi.com writes:

Dear Dan and All:

I enjoyed Dan's extensive comments on coke. (I am used to the name "coke"
as the product of coal pyrolysis. Maybe Dan can tell us if there is a
difference between Coke and Rock coal.)

> Rock coal is just that, Coal that like a rock, comes from the ground instead of burning or cooking wood. If you said "coal" before 1800 they would probably assume it was charcoal. Rock coal was not in widespread use then, just a local fuel with limited uses. The replacement began when the trees were in short supply in England and elsewhere in the early 1800s. It took until about 1880 before rockcoal overtook charcoal in the new world where trees were still plentiful.
Coke is coke, from low or high temperature pyrolisis as far as I have read. Just compare to wood and char coal. Charcoal is charcoal even though it comes in many forms. There are many grades of Coke as there are many grades of coal and charcoal. It's like buying produce. Standards for all are a very recent concept.
Coke was invented by blacksmiths experimenting with rock coal in the period roughly 1730-1850 depending on in which country. England takes most of the credit for early commercialization. Undoubtably it was happening elsewhere as well.
Everybody blames the iromakers for deforestation but this is mostly false. The ironmakers in England guarded sustainable coppiced family owned tree plantations dating back to Roman times. Shipbuilding was the primary cause in England and the railroads and livestock grazing the main cause for deforestation elsewhere.
Does that help any?
Dan Dimiduk

> Pardon me, I forgot to send this to the list. Another comment, our ancestors had more of a choice of what coal to burn. They often chose Antharcite, commonly known as hard coal where it was available, due to it's higher heat per volume and cleaner burn.
Dan D.

From capjan at vol.cz Sat Mar 2 00:51:17 2002
From: capjan at vol.cz (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jan_C=E1p?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004
Subject: Blower parameters (for updraft biomass cookers)?
In-Reply-To: <151.9c27725.29b197ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c1c1d8$410fdd60$2a84fac3@krtek>

Dear Stovers,

I very interested in cooking devices based on "updraft gasifier" principle
with forced konvection (as is cooker by Thomas Reed).

Which blower type/construction is good for this purpose (membraned or
other)?

How mouch air input (blower power) is needed /optimal for small burner (1-5
kW thermal output)?

Thanks to all

Jan Cap
Tabor, Czech Republic

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Mar 2 09:44:11 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004
Subject: Coal cooking summary
Message-ID: <009801c1c222$aef2aa20$5ee80fc4@home>

Dear Tami and contributors

I feel that 250 gm of wood is adequate to light the coal and that a fire of
as little as 200gm of coal is possible. I have had no real problems
lighting 700 gm which is just a handful and the pieces were bigger than
walnuts. A mix down to 5mm is probably right to start: little ones light
big ones and you are not reyling on wood so much.

I will try to do it tomorrow after I have had some rest.

Regards
Crispin

+++++++++

Dear Stovers,

Thanks everyone for your quick responses.

I summarize what I have heard from you:

1. Low-vol coal needs forced draft to burn (Dan, Andrew)

[snip]

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Mar 3 02:41:50 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004
Subject: Coal cooking summary
In-Reply-To: <103.1170671d.29b05832@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1c2b1$449b1a60$a5ac6441@computer>

Tami: I like the summary given by Dan below, with its emphasis on air
control (bellows, blowpipes [fans?], and natural draft (height). I have
four more thoughts:

1. We need others to weigh in on what coal users have been doing. The
solution of starting outside with massive emissions certainly doesn't seem a
very good one. Are coal-using cooks using blowpipes?

2. Strategically placed charcoal rather than wood under the coal might
assist in the coal-ignition process. The gases and flames from the charcoal
MIGHT (no experience) be a good way to start the coal. The practical
problem in the field is having charcoal - more expensive than wood. If this
would allow a fire start without so much cook's time spent in supplying air,
it should be accepted quickly.

3. The "juntos" geometry being explored by Paul Anderson seems ideal to me
for starting the coal - with the coal combustor sitting above a pyrolyzer
section. The flared gases emitted from the lower section can be arranged to
achieve their maximum temperature in the vicinity of the coal - maybe 15 to
20 cm higher. The high flame temperature (as Dan notes below) will ensure
combustion of the gases released from the coal section, even while much of
the heat is initially used to heat up the coal prior to it ignition. (Any
heat escaping the coal region initially can still start the cooking
process.) Paul's geometry in the coal region can also maximize the
reflection and insulation properties we have talked about. The extra height
noted by Dan is already present in the juntos geometry.

4. Lastly, the charcoal produced in the lower region (from twigs, ag waste,
etc) has a place to be used in mixing with the coal ala presumption #2
above. This lower section can be nothing more than a very small can -
almost zero cost. The lower can size can be picked so that most of the
cooking and heating is done with the cheapest fuel.(presumed to be coal) in
the upper chamber.

Thoughts of others? Ron

---- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <tami.bond@noaa.gov>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: Coal cooking summary

> Tami, Stovers,
> We are all more familiar with wood and charcoal. We now want to
apply
> our skills to coal to improve the combustion. Let's look at the primary
> differences between charcoal and rock coal.
> 1. Rock coal has more ash, similar to a briquette with clay binder.
> 2. Rock coal has higher density, more like the ceramic stove than
the
> ticanium stove.
> 3. Rock coal has almost zero porosity unless chipped or powdered.
> 4. Rock coal can be high or low volatility, but generally is lower
in
> volatile than wood or char.
> The first feature gives more heat retention as the resulting ash
> insulates the burning embers much more quickly. This also enables
reflection
> back into the burning coal.
> The higher density holds more heat once properly warmed. Higher
> density acts like a heat sink while trying to ignite, requiring more
initial
> heat.
> Lower porosity allows less surface area which slows the burning
rate
> without sufficient movement of oxygen. The higher heat retention
> characteristics somewhat offset this in open burning. This is because of
the
> higher resulting internal temperatures producing CO instead of CO2. The CO
is
> then emitted and burned as more oxygen becomes available away from the
ember.
>
> The more volatile rock coal has, the more hydrocarbon gas emitted
at a
> lower temperature. This gas can be useful or not just like the gas from
> wood. The exception is that rock coal produces sulfur compounds, nitrogen
> compounds and heavy metal oxides. For this reason I also recommend
outside
> ventilation of flue gasses.
> The Chinese undoubtedly have used some sort of bellows or even
> blowpipes just to establish their pit fires. The lack of air circulation
> would probably kill the flames from CO2 suffocation without extra oxygen.
A
> sizable fire built from wood would also give sufficient air circulation.
> Since early man, bellows of all sorts have been used. Some made of
> skins, some just blowpipes to enhance the lungs. By directing the air into
> the coals, less starting fuel can be used.
> There are two kinds of reflectivity spoken of here.
> 1. Direct reflectivity, where the infrared and visible light are
> reflected off of a shiny surface.
> 2. Secondary reflectivity. This is where the radiation from
combustion
> of fuel heats a surface such as the inside of a stove. This surface then
> reradiates the infrared light waves back to the fuel. The heat retention
is
> required to steady the intermittent pulses of combustion.
> With the rock coal, the combustion tends to be self contained once
> started. The problem is the lack of initial combustion heat to
sufficiently
> raise the temperature of the entire grain of coal. If powdered coal is
used
> it helps, but still does not match the porosity of wood char or the
volatile
> content of wood.
> Anyway you look at it you need more air. Direct reflectivity would
> help, but how do you keep a white or polished surface? High temp
firebrick
> has a high alumna content keeping it's walls white during combustion.
> Thin cast iron seems to be a compromise.
> 1. It heats quickly enough not to conduct too much heat away from
the
> starting fire.
> 2. It retains enough heat to be secondary reflective.
> 3. It insulates enough not to draw heat away from the beginning
fire.
>
> 4. It can be thin and still not burn through unlike any other
material
> known to man.
> I return to the thought that we threw away the perfect material for
> combustion stoves when we forgot how to make certain types of iron
materials.
> Every time I start my potbellied stove I am reminded of this. My stove
has
> both of the iron and brick materials and was made very long ago. In our
> stoves today, the secret is all in the grate. It is the only high carbon
> silicon iron (wrought iron) used in combustion.
> Rock coal was the common term until 1900. The "rock" name was
dropped
> after charcoal was almost made obsolete. That was back when the "Collier"
was
> the most important person around. He was the skilled tradesman who made
your
> coal for you.
> The best stoves I have known for coal burning, had the these same
> features. Secondary air is not as important for coal once up to
temperature
> because the burning temp is hot enough to completely combust everything.
> This is provided enough primary air is present. Draft is far more
> important.
> Dan Dimiduk

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sun Mar 3 02:44:47 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004
Subject: Coal cooking summary
In-Reply-To: <151.9c27725.29b197ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <th448uoed8hg1jifl230j7qru15k1tti0t@4ax.com>

On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:49:16 EST, Carefreeland@aol.com wrote:

>> > Rock coal is just that, Coal that like a rock, comes from the
>> ground instead of burning or cooking wood. If you said "coal" before 1800
>> they would probably assume it was charcoal. Rock coal was not in widespread
>> use then, just a local fuel with limited uses.

Until it was mined it was known as sea coal in UK as it was gathered
from the beaches. As Dan says, collier and charcoal burner were
synonymous.

> The replacement began when
>> the trees were in short supply in England and elsewhere in the early 1800s.

Trees were in short supply well before this, England was essentially
cleared back to 12% tree cover by the iron age. This was unlikely to
be caused by over exploitation rather than agricultural clearances. I
believe the same was true in depleting the caribbean islands. Although
of course the wood harvested as a result of this clearance would have
been utilised. In the case of the caribbean islands the wood was used
to refine the sugar solution for export to the old world.

Despite the magnitude of change in carbon holding between traditional
climax vegetation and agricultural crops it still looks like phytomass
through puts 13% of atmospheric carbon per annum.

>> It took until about 1880 before rockcoal overtook charcoal in the new
>> world where trees were still plentiful.

I believe the rate of uptake of coal mining was more related to
industrial need for power.
<snip>
>> Everybody blames the iromakers for deforestation but this is mostly
>> false.

Yes, at least the problem was identified early on, by tudor times
coppice, particularly hornbeam and beech, was protected in those areas
with both iron ore and limestone (and often water for the hammers)
locally available.

> The ironmakers in England guarded sustainable coppiced family owned
>> tree plantations dating back to Roman times.

Coppice and plantation management are mutually exclusive (with the
possible exception of considering standards in coppice as plantings).

> Shipbuilding was the primary
>> cause in England and the railroads and livestock grazing the main cause for
>> deforestation elsewhere.

No, grain growing, particularly for Romans, was the primary cause. By
the time the navy was at its peak, with wooden ships, Britain was
dependent on its conquests and colonies for timber for ships. That is
not to say that english oak was not used for the home fleet, who
remained prodigious consumers. Right up to the mid 1800s oak (and
other) timber was a very valuable commodity to the landowners,
probably 100 fold its value now, in real terms. In general the quality
of traditional tree stocks in UK has declined in line with falling
prices, as landowners have creamed the crop and recruited the poor
formed saplings as the future tree cover.

A bit off topic for stoves, in the face of no interest in coal burning
stoves perhaps some of the protagonists would like to continue off
list, as I find it interesting.

AJH

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Mar 3 05:54:20 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:41 2004
Subject: Coal cooking summary
Message-ID: <152.9d1ff9a.29b3a134@aol.com>

.>Reply in text

Dear Tami and contributors

I have been away in the highlands of Lesotho for the WIPO conference for a
few days and all this interesting conversation missed me however before
closing the book on this subject I will add a little on the importance of
preheated air in the running of a small coal fire which was not covered by
anyone else.
> Good point Crispin. In my old coal stoves, the preheat is done in the ash pit with the dying embers providing the heat without stealing much oxygen. Additional heat is added through the grate.
> My end to end horizontal flow stove achives some preheat with cast aluminum intake nuts and a heavy thick cast iron door with 1" long ports for the air to travel through. I've added to this effect by deflecting some of this air towards the stove sides around a hot standard sized firebrick. This slight deflection adds an incredable amount of preheat.
> Air should always be circulated around the sides of the stove first. This cools the stove and warms the incoming air.

I will try to do it tomorrow after I have had some rest.

Regards
Crispin

From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Mar 3 08:05:05 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: ATprojects - Offer of assistance
In-Reply-To: <l03130303b8a6214aa237@[202.1.52.139]>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020303101909.01843930@mail.ilstu.edu>

Steve and other Stovers,

I attach below the message for Steve because others on the Stoves list
might be interested in the Papua New Guinea situation.

Steve, We can assist you in 2 of the 3 components of successful domestic
stoves.

1. Fuels
2. Stoves as physical objects
3. Cooking (this is for you and your people to handle, because cooking the
meal is such an individualized and cultural event.)

Fuels. Wood is good, but needs proper burning. Non-wood Biomass is
(perhaps) "better" for the environment but often needs processing. You
identify Coffee bean husks. If not already done, work needs to be done on
making those husks (and sawdust and other stuff) into a "processed fuel",
such as in a briquette ala Richard Stanley and Legacy Foundation.

Stoves (as physical device): MUCH to discuss, and you and ATprojects will
be included to the maximum on my Juntos Stove work, and others might also
offer assistance. Stay tuned for more involvement discussion.

Cooking: For that, I suggest that you analyze the major cooking habits
(boil what, fry what, etc) and quantities, and be prepared to try to cook
those major items but using different fuels and different stoves. All of
us need to know the "current practice" against which the end product of
cooking efforts will be compared, not just in taste, but in convenience and
cost and environmental impact and a dozen other issues.

I SEE THE COOKING AS THE CRUCIAL ISSUE, because cooking summarizes the
social issues that relate to acceptance.

(and as related, important, issues, we have "room heating" for cold
locations and "sterilization / health via fire" as issues that are
important to different societies).

Paul

At 05:28 PM 3/2/02 +1100, ATprojects Inc. wrote:
>Ref: ATp001648
>
>Dear Paul
>
>Thank you very much for your reply that you sent via the stoves mailing
>list. As I said in my previous e-mail ATprojects is very interested in
>looking at what the possibilities are in terms of stove design.
>
>Following your email, I got an message from Dean Steel also offering us
>some assistance. I'd like if possible to take up both your offers to see
>what is possible here.
>
>As I said to Dean, I suppose what I really need from you is a list of
>general information that you require from us so that you have a clearer
>picture of our situation here.
>
>Really the main fuel that is used is still firewood, a few people use
>sawdust, but this is not readily available to most of our rural population.
>Given that the Highlands of Papua New Guinea is famous for its coffee
>production there is available to a reasonably large percentage of our
>population dried coffee husks.
>
>This burns in a very similar way to sawdust. Our experience in the past
>has been that you really need a good flow of air otherwise the husks just
>collapses on itself and puts out the fire.
>
>As I said before the vast majority of people cook on open fire in small
>traditional material huts and if a stove project is to be successful my
>believe at the moment would be that will have to be based firewood however,
>obviously we are open to suggestions.
>
>Hoping to hear from you soon.
>
>Steve Layton.
>
>The information contained in this email message is intended only for the
>addressee. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use,
>disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. If you
>have received this message in error, please email the sender immediately."
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>ATprojects is based in Goroka, Eastern Highlands Province. We work with
>both district and provincial governments, churches, rural communities and
>other NGOs in the Eastern Highlands Province. Our aim is to enable rural
>people to use appropriate technologies which give them more control over
>their lives and which contribute to the sustainable development of their
>communities.
>
>For more information on our work go to http://www.global.net.pg/atprojects
>
>This email may be confidential and/or privileged. Only the intended
>recipient may access or use it. We use virus scanning software but exclude
>all liability for viruses or similar in any attachment.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------e

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From cree at dowco.com Sun Mar 3 08:30:30 2002
From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: ATprojects - Offer of assistance
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020303101909.01843930@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <007001c1c2e1$780c80c0$698457d1@olsen>

Paul said.............You identify Coffee bean husks. If not already done,
work needs to be done on
making those husks (and sawdust and other stuff) into a "processed
fuel"..................
This area of commerce is an important part of my sales effortfor making
Briquettes from Biomass.
The coffee growers by using the husks as a briquette fuel, can roast the
coffee before export, instead of just exporting the bean.
regards
JohnO

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Mar 3 08:51:51 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: New website open while under construction
Message-ID: <dc.13a39f6e.29b3cad1@aol.com>

Stovers,
I have started working on my new website as long promised. Check my
beginning homepage out at:
http://hometown.aol.com/carefreeland/index.html
Soon I will link it to my easier to remember:
Carefreelandscape.com
This is my registered domain name. Keep this site address and check
back. In the future I will add a stove pictures gallery under the Shangri-La
Research portion. The charcoal devises will be under Ohio Charcoal.
Anybody wanting considered for a links exchange, please E-mail me at
this return address. Will the BEF support me?
carefreeland @ aol.com
I hope to make this site continue to grow rapidly as I learn more
about website building. I may soon invest in better webbuilding software,
any recomendations based on experiance? My computer is somewhat limited at
this time, next hardware upgrade in a year or two.
I appreciate any good advise from experienced web builders. I am not
happy with the problems uploading from my harddrive to the Easy Designer
applet on AOL 7.0. This has limited my display of pictures. I call it
"Difficult Designer" now. Any ideas of what to try?
Your budding webbuddy,
Daniel Dimiduk

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Mar 3 09:23:07 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Stovers (including Lurkers)
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020303125406.01843670@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

This is an observation about us and our Stoves List Serve.

We would like to know more about those who are subscribed to the Stoves
list, and here is a little "tongue in cheek" story about us in recent weeks:

1. Someone (me) sent an absurdly large message that caused some grief to
some readers.

2. Someone (Steve) APPROPRIATELY raised the issue about the long
message. That was Steve's first posting to the Stoves list, and he
referred to himself as a lurker (reads messages but does not send back to
the list serve.) or a new subscriber.

3. The result now is that I (Paul) and now working with him (Steve) on
some stoves issues for his area of the world.

Moral of the story (joke): If we could irritate more of the lurkers to
write back to the list, then we could find out who they are and try to
assist them with their problems.

Serious moral: If you are not known to the others on the list (that is,
that you are a lurker), please just send a message and tell us about why
you read the Stoves messages. All kinds of good contacts could come from it.

Off to Africa on Tuesday PM for all of March. I will receive messages,
but probably will not be writing very much.

Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Mar 3 09:33:47 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Coffee husks as fuel
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020303101909.01843930@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020303133307.0184d770@mail.ilstu.edu>

John,

I did not understand if you ALREADY are able to make and are actually
making the briquettes from coffee husks. Please give more details. We
need to know about how much pressure OR if binders are needed OR
output-of-heat results OR any other data about use of coffee husks.

Also, do you mean briquettes in the "standard" sizes (ala Richard Stanley
or ELK) or in the the larger "log-type" fuel units that your machine
produces so well?

Perhaps someone would volunteer to check on "coffee husks as fuel". I
would think that the major coffee producing countries would have looked
closely at this issue.

Paul

At 10:28 AM 3/3/02 -0800, John Olsen wrote:
>Paul said.............You identify Coffee bean husks. If not already done,
>work needs to be done on
>making those husks (and sawdust and other stuff) into a "processed
>fuel"..................
>This area of commerce is an important part of my sales effortfor making
>Briquettes from Biomass.
>The coffee growers by using the husks as a briquette fuel, can roast the
>coffee before export, instead of just exporting the bean.
>regards
>JohnO
>
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction)
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original)
>
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From CAVM at aol.com Sun Mar 3 09:41:33 2002
From: CAVM at aol.com (CAVM@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Stovers (including Lurkers)
Message-ID: <41.1944f7c1.29b3d64f@aol.com>

In a message dated 3/3/2002 1:24:46 PM Central Standard Time,
psanders@ilstu.edu writes:

<< This is an observation about us and our Stoves List Serve.

We would like to know more about those who are subscribed to the Stoves
list, >>

Paul, I applaud your work regarding the Stoves list and "developing"
countries. While we do not ordinarily get involved in issues as small as a
single household, I want to tell you some of what we can do on a larger level.

My company works in agriculture project management, which means that we help
farmers, cooperatives, ag companies and governments institute farm related
projects. We might clean up dairy and hog farms, make energy via anaerobic
digestion, recommend a direct combustion technology for heat, hot water or
steam. We can develop a greenhouse plan for herbs, vegetables, or even
indoor fish and shrimp production.

We do a considerable amount of work in economic development of rural areas,
especially for the benefit of small farmers.

You might recall a conversation you and I had some time ago about our
projects in Kenya and Malawi to harvest water weeds from Lake Victoria and
Lake Malawi. We developed a plan for the governments to anaerobically digest
the weeds to produce significant amounts of electrical energy and still
leave a good fertilizer or livestock feed from the digesters. We worked with
the company which supplied the harvesting equipment. The harvesting has gone
very well but the governments have not decided to build the digesters yet.
This has not stopped the Mexican government from asking us to design the same
project for Jalisco.

We can supply a 6-8MW biomass fueled combustion power plant for about $900/KW
capital cost. It can provide dependable electrical power for $25/MW plus the
cost of the biomass, at 15 tons per hour consumption.

We can process animal waste into fish and livestock feed where this is
permitted.

We can help identify locally adapted oil seed plants for ethanol or biodiesel
production. We work in salt tolerant farming, producing meal and oil in salt
water. We can help clean up incoming water and clean discharge water.

We welcome a chance to take our experience into the field and help those who
want such help. While we cannot work for free, we do offer free advice. On
site work, engineering and economic studies cost us so we likewise must
charge our clients.

If you think we can help your efforts, feel free to send us a note and
discuss it.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.
Ag Project Managers
CAVM@AOL.com

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From jmdavies at xsinet.co.za Sun Mar 3 10:00:04 2002
From: jmdavies at xsinet.co.za (John Davies)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Coal cooking summary
In-Reply-To: <6cda568f24.68f246cda5@pmel.noaa.gov>
Message-ID: <005301c1c2ee$b5d93300$c96b27c4@jmdavies>

Greetings,

Tami Wrote,

> 4. People light coal, prefer hi-volatile [Me too!], bring it into house
> after volatiles are extinguished and cook over the coke. (John) (Note--
> if I get my own lab setup someday, I would love to test your improved
> coal stove)

I hope that I can turn my ideas into practice, but may take some time.
which is rather scarce at the moment.

> So far I haven't used more than 0.6 kg of coal per test, figuring that
> you can finish the water boiling test with ~0.6 kg of wood, and coal has
> a higher heating value. Nor have I used more than 0.3 kg of wood to try
> and start the coal, again thinking that if you were going to use 0.5 kg
> of wood as kindling, you might as well cook over it and forget the coal.

I think that this is a good starting point, I tend to agree that one must
use equipment which will absorb the minimum heat, The pit method might be
absorbing more heat than the tincanium looses ? I used rock wool insulation
on the outside of the tin cans in my tests, but the cans have a very short
life this way. Maybe stainless steel will have a better life, but may make
the stove unaffordable to those that need it most.

I will be doing refractory tests in the planned miniature locomotive, but
this could be a few years away.

> John, how much coal do people typically burn for a meal? And what do
> they do if they cannot get the high-volatile stuff?

Sorry for the delay, I have been consulting people who use the system.
There are no definite answers. But it appears to be between 8 & 15 Li of
coal depending on the required heat, duration of the fire, and the quality
of the coal. Sometimes the tin of coke is taken outside for a smaller second
addition of coal. The local coal is high volatile content. The harder less
volatile coal comes from further afield and tends to be more expensive. I am
informed that about a 1 1/2" layer of wood is placed below the coal for
lighting with plenty of voids. Less volatile coal requires a deeper wood
layer. Remember that this is a dual purpose "stove". In the summer the coal
is volume is greatly reduced ( no volume given ), and the cooking may be
done outside.

I am also told that a crude chimney of about 2 to 3 ft in length is often
placed over the fire at start up to reduce the coking time, but that it does
not reduce pollution.

It would appear that the wastage and pollution is accepted as a necessary
part of life, and that proof of a better system by demonstration would be
needed to make change acceptable. ( I was told that reduced coal requirement
would carry more weight than anything else, as it can be directly equated to
money savings )

Regards,
John Davies.

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Mar 3 11:12:13 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Fw: Dan on "Coal cooking summary"
Message-ID: <008201c1c2f8$7c9c98c0$a5ac6441@computer>

Stovers:

I believe that Dan intended this
to go the full list.

I think that Coal is a bit off
the list general area of discussion - but that it was good we had the chance (so
Thanks to Tami). Not much likelihood that the world will turn voluntarily
from wood to coal.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: <A
href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com"
title=Carefreeland@aol.com>Carefreeland@aol.com
To: <A href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"
title=ronallarson@qwest.net>ronallarson@qwest.net
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Coal cooking summary
In a message dated 3/3/02
7:42:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net">ronallarson@qwest.net
writes:> Replies in text
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE">2. Strategically placed charcoal rather than wood
under the coal mightassist in the coal-ignition process. The gases
and flames from the charcoalMIGHT (no experience) be a good way to start
the coal. The practicalproblem in the field is having charcoal -
more expensive than wood. If thiswould allow a fire start without so
much cook's time spent in supplying air,it should be accepted
quickly. > You are
absolutely right Ron. Most of the charcoal to used to start coal is derived
first from a dying wood fire. The coal is added and both air intakes
opened once the temperature of the stove is up. Coal dust and fines are used
first, increasing particle size later. Largest chunks saved for overnight.
> I practiced much of this a hundred miles
or so southwest of you in an old historic house in Cripple Creek Colorado
(elevation 9595ft). The coal burner was the only heat in the house and I
was the family fireman. We often had heavy frost or snow in June when we opened
the house for summer visitors. I was sad the coal burner was scrapped
before the house was sold by a family friend. 
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE">3. The "juntos" geometry being explored by Paul Anderson
seems ideal to mefor starting the coal - with the coal combustor sitting
above a pyrolyzersection. The flared gases emitted from the lower
section can be arranged toachieve their maximum temperature in the
vicinity of the coal - maybe 15 to20 cm higher. The high flame
temperature (as Dan notes below) will ensurecombustion of the gases
released from the coal section, even while much ofthe heat is initially
used to heat up the coal prior to it ignition. (Anyheat escaping the coal
region initially can still start the cookingprocess.) Paul's
geometry in the coal region can also maximize thereflection and insulation
properties we have talked about. The extra heightnoted by Dan is already
present in the juntos geometry. >
In older stoves this lower "can" was the ash pit under the grate. A small
wood fire was lit here and a primary air control metered the flame to build heat
in the grate above. Remember that the efficiency of the wood fire was not the
objective, so a simple side air entrance was sufficient
> After the coal above ignited, the volatile gas was burned
off with secondary air entering above the coal, swirling around the firebrick or
cast iron sides for preheat. That was the evening cooking fire, warming the
hearth, chimney and house. Then later, the primary air was again the main
control, and the secondary air entrance above the grate was cut back. This
glowing coke fire was for overnight > Hardwood like oak,
hickory, and ash burn similar to coal, so I just build up charcoal during the
day in these stoves. I have to top load more wood several times to do this, more
than a coal fire due to lower density of woodchar. >As soon as the
stove is hot enough, I need little or no secondary air to burn wood. The
wood gases are high enough in hydrogen to not require any extra air to burn
clean unless the wood is damp. I doubt that the building charcoal bed uses
up as much primary oxygen as well due to lower temp. Maybe the draft is stronger
with the additional woodgas flame compared to coal. 
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE">4. Lastly, the charcoal produced in the lower region
(from twigs, ag waste,etc) has a place to be used in mixing with the coal
ala presumption #2above. This lower section can be nothing
more than a very small can -almost zero cost. The lower can size can
be picked so that most of thecooking and heating is done with the cheapest
fuel.(presumed to be coal) inthe upper chamber. >
Someone once again asked why we are discussing coal use on a Biomass Energy
list. A few months ago the conclusion was that we are here to serve anyone
trying to REDUCE fossil fuel consumption and emissions. Many places in the world
have nothing else available or affordable to use at this time. Including
my regional power companys. > We Biomass Energy people have
always traded information with the fossil fuel users where mutual interests are
at stake. Unless one owns a struggling coal mine, this information can
only help the environment, health, and the bottom line of fuel costs.
> Tami Bond brought up the coal subject as a side note of
studying cooking coal emissions and their terrible effects on the
environment. Any discussion of improving coal burning, adds to the
somewhat lost knowledge of charcoal combustion. I have a lot of success
burning wood char overnight in my old coal stoves for greenhouse heating.
> Speaking of building char in the greenhouse
stoves for overnight. The temperature is forecast to drop below F10 degrees
tonight, making this the coldest night of this mild winter. I have some hickory
and plumb wood to char. Maybe I'll see if there's any bituminous coal left
up by the old barn from the barrel stove days. Just a bucketfull would go
a long way towards supplementing the heat late tonight.
> 20 Years ago I found a couple of tons of rock coal
spilled beside a sharp curve on the highway. I hate to waste ANY fuel. I
have tender seedlings in the greenhouse, so I have to do what I must to protect
them. We MUST REDUCE coal use, but there is always a good reason to use
just a little. Maybe I'll learn something new tonight.
> Anybody wanting to experiment with a little coal can scavange coal and coke
from any railroad track. Call it cleaning up the environment, just watch for the
train. Good points Ron,

Daniel Dimiduk
> Writing from the middle of the eastern
USA coal market, using coal energy to run my computer and light my house. We'll
have to change that a little some day. ;-)

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Mar 3 11:18:21 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Answer to Paul's wood bit maker
Message-ID: <009f01c1c2f8$fd5700e0$75e80fc4@home>

Dear Paul

I think I have found a technology that will produce exactly what you want
for the small wood bits to make the your charcoaling stove work properly.

It is called a "Silent Bosch Worm Drive Shredder" and the model I have in a
pic in front of me is an AXT 1600HP.

Winner of the Blue Angel award for silence, it can process 100 kg per hour
up to 30mm diameter branch stock into small kernals. It does not use a
standard 'hog' type mechanism but rather a screw running in an angled
chamber. Very impressive. 1600 watts. Basically designed for rapid
composting of branches. Motor, gears and a built-in trolley, no need to
push in the wood - it draws it in with the sharp-edged screw thread (pitch
maybe...25mm).

I expect you will be able to find it on the net somewhere under Bosch Garden
Tools.

Regards
Crispin

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From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Sun Mar 3 11:49:11 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Answer to Paul's wood bit maker
In-Reply-To: <009f01c1c2f8$fd5700e0$75e80fc4@home>
Message-ID: <004a01c1c2fd$311d4200$8919059a@kevin>

Dear Crispin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 2:24 PM
Subject: Answer to Paul's wood bit maker

> Dear Paul
>
> I think I have found a technology that will produce exactly what you want
> for the small wood bits to make the your charcoaling stove work properly.
>
> It is called a "Silent Bosch Worm Drive Shredder" and the model I have in
a
> pic in front of me is an AXT 1600HP.
> ^^^
Should be watts.

A site is:
http://www.bosch.co.uk/intro.html

However, they just give a small picture.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
>

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From psanders at ilstu.edu Sun Mar 3 13:10:07 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Juntos Stove and help with Shell Foundation
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020303151712.00b29f00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

I hope that many of us will be applying for the Shell Foundation grants,
and that at least several of us receive funding.

I offer my assistance to others who are applying, and I request
assistance in whatever way you might be able to provide it. This
includes writing into the grant proposals some activities by others of
us.

My focus is on the Juntos stove. If you want any Juntos aspects
into your grant proposal, contact me.

Information about the Juntos stove is found at:
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
and go to the links for Paul Anderson - Juntos Stove, and see the
February 2002 posting.

And what I am seeking from you and others is any of the following:

a. I must have scientific testing of the Juntos stove.
Emissions testing, energy efficiency, and other scientific stuff that I
do not yet know that I need. Several of you have offered to test
the Juntos stove for free. Well, if Juntos gets a Shell
Grant, there can be some money to pay for some, part or all of the
testing. But Shell wants ADDITIONAL PARTICIPANTS, and that could
include you and your agencies. The value of what you
"donate" is offset against the hard-cash costs that need to be
covered for what you will do.

Tami, Ron, Tom, Tom, Mark, ETHOS, etc: What should be tested and
what would be your cash needs and what would be your
"contribution"? Should more than one place do similar
tests? You are NOT competing with each other, at least not
while in the preliminary application stage.

Assume that an appropriate Juntos stove is provided to you. Assume
that YOU will have the various fuel types to be tested (or ask for fuel
money if that is an issue). Assume that you have the equipment and
personnel (no money for new equipment nor for training of testers).
Assume there are 10 or 20 types of fuels and 5 or 10 configurations of
the Juntos stove that need testing. (10 x 5 = 50 test runs, plus
replications; 20 x 10 = 200 test runs, plus
replications). And how many measurements of what done where
and done when (how many times) during the burn.

I (and others who could be preparing applications) need answers (or at
least some questions to guide us as we try to prepare the
applications.) Maybe I do not have a clue about what I am asking
about.

Remember: THIS IS JUST THE PRELIMINARY LEVEL OF
APPLICATION.   I (we) need some ball park
figures!!    What will US$5000 get
accomplished?    or $10K,    or ? do you
need more?? ( $30K would be 10 percent of the total grant.)

And what would be the additional value that could be placed on the budget
representing your "contribution" to the project?

b. Juntos stove construction issues: Here I look
to Crispin and others who can MAKE things, including some of the design
issues. Crispin has the inside track here because my application
work is focused toward southern Africa.

BUT I am interested eventually having the Juntos stoves made in Kenya
(ELK), Papua New Guinea (ATprojects), Philippines (REAP), India
(Karve's), Latin America (Aprovecho and Legacy), and
elsewhere. That might not mean production in all of those
places in the initial part of the grant period (max is 3 years), but
perhaps...... The Juntos stove design is so
simple that we do not need to sit on the designs and experimentation for
very long. In fact, when I see Crispin in about 5 days from now, I
hope that we can accomplish much is a short period.

Assuming he wants it, Crispin would be written into the grant in a
significant way to get over the initial production hurdles, many even
prior to the deadline for the preliminary grant submission "Concept
Proposal Form" on 25 April.

I am spending the rest of March in southern Africa. I will build
stoves and burn with them frequently and know much more by 1 April.
I am openly building up my "sweat equity" in the Juntos stove
project as part of the contributions brought to the party. I
expect that the Juntos stove will have made major advances even before
any Shell Foundation decisions are made.

So, when the grant (IF received) starts in Sept 2002 or later, assume
that you and your agency might want to be included in some early work
with your rice hulls or coconut husks or biomass this or biomass that in
you region of the world. What would be needed is to
"empower" your project to conveniently produce some Juntos
stoves (several designs?) for local modifications etc, and
experimentations. You will be "contributing expertise",
and we would assist you with cost of materials and instructions and
???? If you are interested, I need to hear from
you with proposed uses and with numbers for hard cash and for
"contribution by participant organizations." This
is a clear part of the "#13 Other Partners" part of the
application. I WANT your involvement, and I am prepared to request
funding that will go to your organization to help determine and "to
ensure that other key stakeholders or partners will support project
implementation".

In short, how much money do you need in order to ACCOMPANY (not totally
replicate) the Juntos project (albeit from afar) and to provide comments,
etc? We are not talking about big sums, but 5
locations/organizations times US$4000 each is $20K. What
would your NGO or agency be willing to do along these lines for $2K, $4K,
$6K, or $???.

Note: This does NOT turn over to you the funding for the other
focal work of the grant that deals with "social marketing" and
education and micro-enterprise and other things. You could do those
things as part of your own activities (and you might have great funding
for that), but the Juntos Shell grant that I will submit does NOT have
sufficient funds to do all of that in so many areas in such a short
time. My focal area is Swaziland, southern Mozambique, and
northeast South Africa.

c. External examiners: There needs to be some independent
evaluation of the project (apart from the emissions testing discussed
earlier). Reasonable knowledge of southern Africa and the
socio-cultural-economic realities of poverty (and of stoves/cooking/etc)
would seem to be essential in the credentials, but that could be
debated. Probably 2 trips to southern Africa (unless currently
resident there) for a couple of weeks each time.   Who wants
the job?   And I need to get a cost for that in terms of both
real cash and/or "contributions by agency".   Such as
airfare, room and board, plus honorarium to be hard cash, but
professional expertise associated with the person's regular salary that
he or she would be receiving anyway could be a contribution.
Just guessing.

d. Volunteer service: Example, would the Scouts of Mozambique
provide person-power for making briquettes? I believe in the power
of volunteerism. You are invited to consider getting involved (or
getting others involved.)

e. Financial support: I will be seeking assistance from other
agencies and individuals. Can you assist in finding additional
real-money contributions? If so, would the funds be for any
appropriate purpose, or for a directed / specific purpose? For
example, someone or some agency might only make a donation if directed
toward some specific location (e.g., Guatemala) or some specific aspect
of the project (e.g., burning of coal). The project is potentially
so large that what places or aspects receive special attention in the
initial years can be influenced by the availability of funding.

I hope that others who are considering applying can also benefit from
this request for assistance. For that reason, if you are going to
offer assistance and want it to be considered by any and all possible
applicants, then please post your message to the Stoves list
serve. But if only specific to the Juntos stove project that
I am preparing, please send it specifically to me.

Time is short. If you do not hear a reply from me to your specific
message and you expect an answer, please re-send it to me just in case I
lost it while in Africa.

“Juntos” means “Together”. I hope that many of you will find
a way to participate in the Juntos stove project with me.

Sincerely,

Paul

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of
2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State
University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice:
309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items:
www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From ZBihari at ormat.com Sun Mar 3 19:29:51 2002
From: ZBihari at ormat.com (Zoli Bihari)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Answer to Paul's wood bit maker
Message-ID: <727CFCBBE1C3D41181FC005004201AA0F9B695@ORMAT-NT>

Hi to all the stovers from another "lurker" ;-)))

You can find a more detailed technical spec of a larger shredder (same series) at

http://www.bosch.com.au/productcatalogue/spt2/products/axt2000hp.htm

Zoli

Zoli Bihari
Project Manager - R&D
Ormat Ltd. - Israel
Tel: 972 (8) 9433894
Fax: 972 (8) 9439901
E-mail: zbihari@ormat.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net]
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 11:45 PM
> To: Crispin; Stoves
> Subject: Re: Answer to Paul's wood bit maker
>
>
> Dear Crispin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> To: "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 2:24 PM
> Subject: Answer to Paul's wood bit maker
>
>
> > Dear Paul
> >
> > I think I have found a technology that will produce exactly
> what you want
> > for the small wood bits to make the your charcoaling stove
> work properly.
> >
> > It is called a "Silent Bosch Worm Drive Shredder" and the
> model I have in
> a
> > pic in front of me is an AXT 1600HP.
> > ^^^
> Should be watts.
>
> A site is:
> http://www.bosch.co.uk/intro.html
>
> However, they just give a small picture.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
> >
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under
> construction)
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original)
>
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
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> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>

From GITONGA at itdg.or.ke Sun Mar 3 21:29:39 2002
From: GITONGA at itdg.or.ke (Stephen Gitonga)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Coffee husks as fuel
Message-ID: <FAB0B607D5E0D41195B700508BF3A332325CFF@14CCK4A059>

Hi Paul

The KPCU (Kenya planters coperative Union) in Nairobi used to make charcoal
from coffee husks for sometime. I used to see it in Supermarkets in Nairobi
but I am not sure whether they still do it. That was in the 80's and early
90's

They might be of help

Stephen Gitonga

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul S. Anderson [mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 10:42 PM
To: John Olsen; stoves@crest.org
Subject: Coffee husks as fuel

John,

Also, do you mean briquettes in the "standard" sizes (ala Richard Stanley
or ELK) or in the the larger "log-type" fuel units that your machine
produces so well?

Perhaps someone would volunteer to check on "coffee husks as fuel". I
would think that the major coffee producing countries would have looked
closely at this issue.

Paul

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From ZBihari at ormat.com Sun Mar 3 21:43:55 2002
From: ZBihari at ormat.com (Zoli Bihari)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Coffee husks as fuel
Message-ID: <727CFCBBE1C3D41181FC005004201AA0F9B708@ORMAT-NT>

John, Paul and Stovers

I'm asking myself, why should you pelletize the coffee husk?
It burns wonderfully as is, if you manage to keep
it in a thin layer on a grate.
That way, the naturally induced air can pass trough it
and you get a very nice fire.

By the way, you should mention what type of
coffee residue do you have.
In Kenya they have parchment, which is one of the inner
layers, and the M'Buni, which is the outer skin and flesh together.

Zoli

Zoli Bihari
R&D - Ormat Ltd. - Israel
Tel: 972 (8) 9433894
Fax: 972 (8) 9439901
E-mail: zbihari@ormat.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul S. Anderson [mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 9:42 PM
> To: John Olsen; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Coffee husks as fuel
>
>
> John,
>
> I did not understand if you ALREADY are able to make and are actually
> making the briquettes from coffee husks. Please give more
> details. We
> need to know about how much pressure OR if binders are needed OR
> output-of-heat results OR any other data about use of coffee husks.
>
> Also, do you mean briquettes in the "standard" sizes (ala
> Richard Stanley
> or ELK) or in the the larger "log-type" fuel units that your machine
> produces so well?
>
> Perhaps someone would volunteer to check on "coffee husks as
> fuel". I
> would think that the major coffee producing countries would
> have looked
> closely at this issue.
>
> Paul
>
> At 10:28 AM 3/3/02 -0800, John Olsen wrote:
> >Paul said.............You identify Coffee bean husks. If
> not already done,
> >work needs to be done on
> >making those husks (and sawdust and other stuff) into a "processed
> >fuel"..................
> >This area of commerce is an important part of my sales
> effortfor making
> >Briquettes from Biomass.
> >The coffee growers by using the husks as a briquette fuel,
> can roast the
> >coffee before export, instead of just exporting the bean.
> >regards
> >JohnO
> >
> >
> >

From emma at george.as Mon Mar 4 10:40:49 2002
From: emma at george.as (emma@george.as)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Fwd: low power efficiency
Message-ID: <20020304204127.9179.qmail@www2.nameplanet.com>

---- Forwarded message
From: emma@george.as
To: dstill@epud.net
CC: Visser@btg.ct.utwente.nl
Date: 28 Feb 2002 18:09:21 -0000
Subject: low power efficiency

Some of you gave me some advice on testing lorena and other woodstoves a couple
of
months ago. I have one more question.

I want to test some woodstoves also at low power, but it seems (to me) that
efficiency at low (min. for boiling) power is a meaningless concept. In my mind
I am not testing the stoves alone, but the Stove-pot-lid combo. In an ideal
system no power would be required to keep a pot simmering, the power supplied
by the wood is simply to compensate for losses in the system. An insulated box
could do the same with no input.

If, on the other hand, I simmer without a lid (to measure inevitable evaporated
water) a higher than realistic power will be required to maintain simmering.

The only option remaining is to calculate energy loss (radiative, conductive
etc) from the system which seems impossibly complex and pretty dodgy, and it's
not really efficiency anyway - the energy can't be used in any situation.-
Although I fully accept that steam produced in a high power test could
correspond to useful power in a cooking situation.

I think I'm going to give up, and just find the savings compared to a 3-stone
fire instead. Or I could give a combined high-low power efficiency, as in the
VITA tests, eg. boil for 30 mins, simmer for 60. But since the low power phase
represents only energy lost, not energy used, the longer the simmering
(compared to high power boiling) the lower the efficiency.

So the fair thing would be to simulate cooking, where no time should be spent
high-power boiling, only heating and then simmering, with a lid. Then the
useful energy corresponds only to that needed to bring the water to the boil??

It's very possible I've misunderstood something obvious. Could you advise?!

many thanks
Emma

--
Get your firstname@lastname email at http://Nameplanet.com/?su

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From rstanley at legacyfound.org Mon Mar 4 11:24:35 2002
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: ATprojects - Offer of assistance
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020303101909.01843930@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3C8470DD.DAC199D7@legacyfound.org>

John,
We have used coffee husks in the wet process briquette which paul is
now into. You will find that you will need long fibrous biomass material
to bind it up into the solid non-elastic mass, which makes a good
briquette when compressed under about 125 atmospheres and simultaneously
dewatered, as this process requires, Unfortunately, the ones who
have mastered that art are rural farmers in MAlawi who tend to keep their
recipe a secret lest they lose their competitive advantage. Some would
call that selfish, We use the term "patenting".
Either way, I will be shortly starting some training activity
with the uganda wildlife and forestry department out here in coffee central,
Uganda,. Coffee husks are on our list and will keep you all posted as to
what we find best for other more fibrous biomass binders.
I recall that it "burned hot" but that the fibrous additive had
to be chosen with some attention to its ability to neutralize the burned
coffee smell the briquette would otherwise produce.
Richard Stanley
John Olsen wrote:
Paul said.............You identify Coffee bean husks.
If not already done,
work needs to be done on
making those husks (and sawdust and other stuff) into a "processed
fuel"..................
This area of commerce is an important part of my sales effortfor making
Briquettes from Biomass.
The coffee growers by using the husks as a briquette fuel, can roast
the
coffee before export, instead of just exporting the bean.
regards
JohnO
-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/
http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
(Under construction)
http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html
(Original)
Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
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-
Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
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Bioenergy
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
Gasification
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html
Carbon
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
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From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Mar 4 18:48:15 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Coffee husks as fuel
In-Reply-To: <727CFCBBE1C3D41181FC005004201AA0F9B708@ORMAT-NT>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20020304225311.01827cc0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Dear Zoli,

Good question you asked.

In the top-downward gasifier approach to pyrolysis, we are not able to
add additional fuel on top of the pyrolysis layer. Therefore, we
need the pellets or small briquettes to let it "breathe" from
the bottom.

Paul

At 09:43 AM 3/4/02 +0200, Zoli Bihari wrote:

John, Paul and Stovers

By the way, you should mention what type of
coffee residue do you have.
In Kenya they have parchment, which is one of the inner
layers, and the M'Buni, which is the outer skin and flesh together.

Zoli

Zoli Bihari
R&D - Ormat Ltd. - Israel
Tel: 972 (8) 9433894
Fax: 972 (8) 9439901
E-mail: zbihari@ormat.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul S. Anderson [mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 9:42 PM
> To: John Olsen; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Coffee husks as fuel
>
>
> John,
>
> I did not understand if you ALREADY are able to make and are actually
> making the briquettes from coffee husks.   Please give more
> details. We
> need to know about how much pressure OR if binders are needed OR
> output-of-heat results OR any other data about use of coffee husks.
>
> Also, do you mean briquettes in the "standard" sizes (ala
> Richard Stanley
> or ELK) or in the the larger "log-type" fuel units that your machine
> produces so well?
>
> Perhaps someone would volunteer to check on "coffee husks as
> fuel".   I
> would think that the major coffee producing countries would
> have looked
> closely at this issue.
>
> Paul
>
> At 10:28 AM 3/3/02 -0800, John Olsen wrote:
> >Paul said.............You identify Coffee bean husks. If
> not already done,
> >work needs to be done on
> >making those husks (and sawdust and other stuff) into a "processed
> >fuel"..................
> >This area of commerce is an important part of my sales
> effortfor making
> >Briquettes from Biomass.
> >The coffee growers by using the husks as a briquette fuel,
> can roast the
> >coffee before export, instead of just exporting the bean.
> >regards
> >JohnO
> >
> >
> >
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400   Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From owen at africaonline.co.ke Mon Mar 4 20:31:34 2002
From: owen at africaonline.co.ke (Matthew Owen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Coffee husks as fuel
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020304225311.01827cc0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <01a801c1c40f$51370b80$3641083e@oemcomputer>

Dear Stovers,

At Chardust in Nairobi we use our downdraft pit
system to carbonise a number of materials for briquetting. Coffee husk is one of
the best. It has a low moisture content so
requires no pre-drying; it is of homogenous size and shape; it is
available right in urban centres (such as Nairobi and Kampala), which
reduces transport costs when competing with lumpwood charcoal; it carbonises at
an efficiency of 33%; and the final product is relatively low in ash, even after
the addition of binders.

Stephen Gitonga of ITDG mentioned the efforts of
the Kenya Planters Cooperative Union (KPCU) to market coffee husk charcoal
in Kenya. These began in 1987 but have pretty much ended, with over 600 tonnes
unsold at the KPCU depot. The product was unpopular with consumers due to its
smokiness, and the marketing operation was run inefficiently as an off-shoot of
a para-statal organisation. We're re-branding the product as BBQ charcoal and
packing in clean 4 kg sacks for supermarkets and convenience stores. The smoke
problem persists to an extent, regardless of which binder is used, for
10-11 mins after lighting. We're trying to improve the efficiency of our
carbonisation to see if it can be eliminated, but it may be something inherent
in coffee husk that cannot be avoided. For a BBQ market (outdoor) it's not a
major problem in any case.

We were recently in Uganda and looked at the
opportunities there. Lumpwood charcoal is fairly cheap in Kampala @ US$0.08-0.09
per kg so a coffee husk charcoal plant might require subsidy. But there's plenty
of arabica husk available at mills around Kampala. Robusta husk is less
accessible as it tends to be processed at farm level by smallholders. The husk
volumes are significant: Uganda exports 3 million bags of coffee per annum
(180,000 tonnes), and up to 30% of arabica and 50% of the robusta bean
apparently ends up as husk.

The use of processing wastes (such as husk) is
becoming more of an issue for the coffee industry in these days of
environmental awareness and corporate social responsibility. One set of
industry guidelines, drawn up by the Consumer's Choice Council and others, can
be downloaded at:

<A
href="http://www.consumerscouncil.org/coffee/principles_eng.pdf">http://www.consumerscouncil.org/coffee/principles_eng.pdf

Under the heading of 'Waste
Management' it's stated that 'Waste and coffee by-products are managed to
minimise environmental impacts by applying the principles of reduction, reuse
and recycling'. There's probably industry financing out there somewhere to
support husk conversion in charcoal markets where subsidy is
required.

Matthew Owen
Chardust Ltd.
Nairobi
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Paul S.
Anderson
To: <A title=ZBihari@ormat.com
href="mailto:ZBihari@ormat.com">Zoli Bihari ; <A title=cree@dowco.com
href="mailto:cree@dowco.com">John Olsen ; <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 7:56
AM
Subject: RE: Coffee husks as fuel
Dear Zoli,Good question you asked.In the
top-downward gasifier approach to pyrolysis, we are not able to add additional
fuel on top of the pyrolysis layer. Therefore, we need the pellets or
small briquettes to let it "breathe" from the bottom.PaulAt
09:43 AM 3/4/02 +0200, Zoli Bihari wrote:
John, Paul and Stovers
I'm asking myself, why should you pelletize the coffee
husk? It burns wonderfully as is, if you manage to
keep it in a thin layer on a grate. That way, the naturally induced air can pass trough it
and you get a very nice fire. By the way, you should mention what type of coffee residue do you have. In Kenya they
have parchment, which is one of the inner layers,
and the M'Buni, which is the outer skin and flesh together.
Zoli Zoli Bihari
R&D - Ormat Ltd. - Israel Tel: 972 (8) 9433894 Fax:
972 (8) 9439901 E-mail: zbihari@ormat.com
> -----Original Message----- > From: Paul S. Anderson [<A
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 9:42 PM > To: John Olsen; stoves@crest.org >
Subject: Coffee husks as fuel > > > John, >
> I did not understand if you ALREADY are able to
make and are actually > making the briquettes
from coffee husks. Please give more > details. We > need to know
about how much pressure OR if binders are needed OR > output-of-heat results OR any other data about use of coffee
husks. > > Also, do
you mean briquettes in the "standard" sizes (ala > Richard Stanley > or ELK) or in the
the larger "log-type" fuel units that your machine > produces so well? > > Perhaps someone would volunteer to check on "coffee husks as
> fuel". I > would think that the major coffee producing countries would
> have looked >
closely at this issue. > > Paul > >
At 10:28 AM 3/3/02 -0800, John Olsen wrote: >
>Paul said.............You identify Coffee bean husks. If
> not already done, >
>work needs to be done on > >making those
husks (and sawdust and other stuff) into a "processed > >fuel".................. >
>This area of commerce is an important part of my sales > effortfor making > >Briquettes
from Biomass. > >The coffee growers by using
the husks as a briquette fuel, > can roast
the > >coffee before export, instead of just
exporting the bean. > >regards
> >JohnO > >
> > > >

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 -
7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of
2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360;
FAX: 309-438-5310E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: <A
href="http://www.ilstu.edu/~psanders"
EUDORA="AUTOURL">www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From dstill at epud.net Mon Mar 4 23:05:25 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Wood fired dryer in Nicaragua
Message-ID: <00c101c1c3bd$622c7300$LocalHost@default>

Dr. Larry Winiarski has just returned from Nicaragua where he built a
prototype wood fired dryer for cacao beans. Working with Winrock
International, Larry spent about two weeks building and testing the first of
four dryers. Six pictures of the dryer are posted here on CREST.

The dryer is based on the Rocket style plancha (griddle) stove design.
Sticks of wood are fed into a foot square opening, the horizontal feed
magazine, that leads to the base of an equally sized three foot high
vertical internal chimney made from ceiling tiles called baldosa. The feed
magazine and internal chimney are in the shape of the letter "L". The
combustion chamber and internal chimney are surrounded by light weight
pumice rock that insulates around the small fire. The griddle is four feet
wide by ten feet long and sits on top of a brick box containing the firebox
and internal chimney. Pumice fills the entire box leaving only a one inch
gap between the rock and the underside of the large griddle. The opening of
the internal chimney is level with the pumice surface. Hot flue gases pass
through this one inch gap exiting out of the back of the box into a 12 foot
high chimney.

A metal box, open at the bottom, elevated one inch above the griddle, holds
the trays of beans. A clear plastic cover is supported above the trays of
beans and this cover is held by air pressure against the sides of the
supporting box. Air is sucked in through the one inch opening and is pulled
through the trays. The moist air then travels through the tunnel created by
the clear plastic and exits in a chimney that surrounds the inner chimney
connected to the fire. The larger external chimney, 20 feet tall, is warmed
by the heat passing through the inner chimney, which helps to create better
draft. This increased draft helps to shorten drying periods.

Drying only requires temperatures around 140F. In use, the 12" by 12" fuel
magazine is about one third full of sticks when in operation. Of course,
adding a small fan increases productivity. Since it frequently rains in this
locale, nearly every day, solar drying is difficult which makes wood fired
drying necessary.

Check out the photos!

Best,

Dean

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From jpjohnston at worldnet.att.net Wed Mar 6 04:38:02 2002
From: jpjohnston at worldnet.att.net (Phil Johnston)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Carbon credits
Message-ID: <3C8629A6.36D93CF6@worldnet.att.net>

Dear Stove list members,

I would very much appreciate your assistance in finding examples of
countries that have opted to particapate in the climate change program
described in the Kyoto Protocol. I am seeking examples of countries that
have put in place systems for increasing the removal of atmospheric
pollutants, such as restricting the cutting of trees so that the
sequestering of carbon increases (compared to what it would be if the
trees in the forest were cut and burned). Additionally, I would like to
find examples of countries that have systems for determining how much
additional carbon dioxcide was sequestered and finally how this
reduction in pollution is converted into carbon credits and sold?

Thanks for your assistance.
Phil Johnston

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From Tami.Bond at noaa.gov Wed Mar 6 05:32:06 2002
From: Tami.Bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Coal summary II
Message-ID: <7033775c45.75c4570337@pmel.noaa.gov>

Dear Stovers,

Some comments on more responses.

As Ron says, this list is more interested in biomass that was formed in
the last 100 years. So after this, we could take the discussion off-
line; e-mail me if interested in more discussion and I will keep you
posted.

Also as Ron says, probably nobody is going to *choose* to switch to
coal. In many parts of China, there is not a choice. The trees have
been gone for hundreds of years. For my interest (a bit academic;
adding up global emissions) coal is of great concern because it's
really darn good at making particles-- especially black ones. This has
to do with the fuel chemistry. We estimate that domestic coal use might
produce as much mass of 'black carbon' as domestic wood use, although
there is a lot more wood used.

On to the stove stuff:
No, I have not seen the coal burned in Yunnan. I am relying on second-
hand accounts, and have asked some more questions there. Some other
ideas: preheat air, start with charcoal. I will try these but first, I
have to burn like the people REALLY burn.

John says 8-15 li per meal, is that LITERS? On the order of 15 kg coal
per meal? That seems like a LOT!

Crispin says:
> I feel that 250 gm of wood is adequate to light the coal and that
> a fire of as little as 200gm of coal is possible.

Good! Can you do this with the lower-vol stuff? It is easy (for me) to
light hi-vol bituminous but I can't use the same method with all coals.

By the way I have tried smaller chunks-- down to powder-- it makes a
lot more smoke IMHO. The chunk size as used probably depends on the
kind of coal; some holds its shape well, some is brittle and crumbles
if you look at it, so I imagine a lot of small stuff gets burned.

I think coal is far more variable than wood. Will keep trying.

And thank you Andrew for your GREAT history lesson. You can write that
sort of thing (to me at least!) any time. There is more to the stoves,
fuel, cooking picture than tincanium and secondary air-- we have such a
long history with fire.

Tami

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From GITONGA at itdg.or.ke Wed Mar 6 05:47:47 2002
From: GITONGA at itdg.or.ke (Stephen Gitonga)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:42 2004
Subject: Carbon credits
Message-ID: <FAB0B607D5E0D41195B700508BF3A332325D25@14CCK4A059>

Hi Phil

UNFCC offices should have the answer to your question, in case you need
really detailed answer but I am aware of some facts which you might want to
follow up for further reference:

1) the world Bank prototype Carbon Fund was set up in 1999 with a fund value
of US$150 million. Investors are a mix of private sector and governments,
involved in oil, financial,, manufacturing, electricity and general energy.
Up to date, on average, the PCF has paid US$3per tonne of co2. Contact PCF
for more details

2) The Netherlands has started a trading system. The Dutch Government has
initiated series of programmes including, Dutch Carbon purchasing Programme.
An average price of Euro 8 per tonne of co2 has been paid in some
activities. Please contact the Dutch Government for further details

3) BP and Shell are known to have established internal carbon trading
systems.

4) A company by the name Eco securities. Based in Oxford Uk is an
established environmental finance company that has wide experience in the
issues that you have raised (contact belinda@ecosecurities.com

5) The UK is said that it will start trading on carbon this year (2002)

These are not answers to your questions but pointers to where you might get
more detailed answers

Stephen Gitonga
Energy Programme Manager
ITDG EA
Nairobi, Kenya

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Johnston [mailto:jpjohnston@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 5:37 PM
To: Stoves@crest.org; bioenergy@crest.org; bioconversion@crest.org
Subject: Carbon credits

Dear Stove list members,

Thanks for your assistance.
Phil Johnston

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From jaturnbu at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 6 08:58:43 2002
From: jaturnbu at ix.netcom.com (Jane)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: Carbon credits
In-Reply-To: <3C8629A6.36D93CF6@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <B8ABB309.5E25%jaturnbu@ix.netcom.com>

Phil,

I would suggest that you look up IEA Task 38 on the web. This is the
international program seeking to define strategies and procedures for
mitigation of greenhouse gas emissions.

the url is http://www.joanneum.ac.at/iea-bioenergy-task38

Jane Turnbull
Peninsula Energy Partners

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http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon

From tami.bond at noaa.gov Wed Mar 6 12:24:06 2002
From: tami.bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: low power efficiency
In-Reply-To: <20020304204127.9179.qmail@www2.nameplanet.com>
Message-ID: <3C869728.C815711@noaa.gov>

Dear Emma,

As nobody has yet taken this up (on-list at least) I will do so,
although I am not expert. You have hit on a good point and no, you are
not missing anything obvious-- other than the fact that sometimes
standardization misses the obvious!

Now I am going to go about repeating your mail, and/or stating the
obvious. Bear with me...

Balancing heat loss is an old and honorable tradition; after all, that's
all the furnace in your home is doing (assuming you have one), if you
keep the home at the same temperature always. Your
temperature-controlled oven is doing that too. This is what we want to
do with the pot after it has got up to the right temperature. Your
question, if I understand it right, is how one estimates the value of
this service and gives credit to the stove for performing it.

Heat transferred to the pot goes to balance losses and to evaporate
water. In the water-boiling test, only heat that is used to boil off
water is counted as transferred to the pot. BUT, the evaporation of
water is incidental to the task of interest-- nobody really sets out to
evaporate water; it just happens because the water gets hot enough that
it has a high vapor pressure. So really, the WBT is measuring the wrong
part of the heat-in: the part that is irrelevant to what people want! To
make the point ridiculous, your user would not be very happy about a
system that gave 100% efficiency but just boiled off the water
instantly, leaving the food uncooked.

It's temperature over time that matters, right? I think this raises
questions about how one would evaluate the efficiency of other
continuous low-power tasks. Bread-baking, for example.

Hmmmm.

I could think of a bonehead way to calculate a rough estimate of heat
loss from the system: quench the fire when the pot is hot, and monitor
the water temp. You should see an exponential decay, and the decay rate
would be proportional to the heat loss. But this will be in error for
several reasons: for example, the air flowing over the pot will not have
the same velocity field when there's no fire and when the pot is cooler.
Likewise the internal convection of the water would decrease. So the
heat transfer coeff might be completely unrepresentative.

> I think I'm going to give up, and just find the savings compared to a 3-stone
> fire instead.

I guess this is the best option. Positive side: The true measure of
efficiency (IMHO) is not MJ delivered but service provided. What matters
to users (and the environment) is wood used per meal cooked and
emissions per meal cooked. (Also perhaps peak emissions but we'll leave
that aside for now.) Negative side: The test would not be comparable
with other efficiency tests that are widely reported.

Tami

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From dstill at epud.net Thu Mar 7 08:56:11 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: low power efficiency
Message-ID: <003101c1c5e6$e66df3c0$111d66ce@default>

Dear Emma and Tami,

As I figure it, the low power efficiency part of a stove test can show
differences between stoves. Can the stove/pot combo supply the right amount
of heat to keep the water gently simmering without loosing heat into the
stove body or into the air around the pot? A great stove would get a higher
score because it is most efficiently changing water to steam. Lots of stoves
loose on both scores.

Using this test we top out at around 40% if two pots are efficiently
submerged into the heat stream. Around 34% if one pot is in there. But if
the heat flow path is uninsulated and the heat only hits the bottom of the
pot we're usually around 8% to 15%.

A 3 stone fire can be made very well and can score above 20% (Tami may hold
the world's record for BEST THREE STONE FIRE) because no stove body absorbs
heat while heat transfer to the pot is equal to most stoves. Making stoves
that score better than a laboratory test of the 3 stone fire means the stove
designer can't use earth or heavy ceramic or a griddle, etc. that lowers
scores, especially if stoves are tested from a cold start.

In real life, people don't make such great fires and average efficiency is
much lower. Complicated subject especially for folks interested in funding
stove projects.

As you point out, changing water into steam ain't what we start stoves to do
but it seems a related method to get at differences. Food cooks as it
simmers with the water at boiling temperatures. How much does a lid help
cooking? When steam condenses on the lid the heat is transferred in some
part to the lid. This hot lid is on top of the food however and seems out of
the way, not positioned to help cooking very much. A lot of older lids let
the steam out anyway so the difference between lid/no lid might not be all
that big unless its tight?

A high mass stove has traditionally been considered to improve in efficiency
the longer its running. Folks have measured that less heat is lost into the
stove body once it's hot. It's just darn hard to do stove tests that take
that long. Lorena stoves don't establish a stable loss pattern until 5 or 6
hours in my last test. And it takes a full blown continual fire to get there
without rests in between meals...

I'd like to try this test: give the household a weighed amount of wood in a
open, nice looking container. Come back every 24 hours to weigh the
remaining and replenish the supply. Do that for a couple of weeks. Do the
same thing in 10 houses using the improved cook stove and 10 houses using
the open fire.

Do you like this idea, Emma? I'm thinking about doing this in our projects.
I'd really prefer something more anthropologically correct, no interference,
like counting wood sold to houses with and without stoves, etc. but it seems
too hard, possibly confounded by using free supplies.

Best,

Dean

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Mar 8 06:37:32 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: particulates, cancer, and heart disease
In-Reply-To: <195a01c1c610$aa2348a0$b0e0e53f@computer>
Message-ID: <19fa01c1c61d$7796b040$b0e0e53f@computer>

Thanks Kevin

I had thought mummification was
reserved for those who were pretty well off.

I wonder how much autopsy work
goes on today in developing countries - and what the differences might be as a
function of income level. And whether the autopsy could indicate that the
lung soot was a cause of death.

I have been in some
well-to-do homes in developing countries where the wife (not servants) did at
least some of the cooking. I wonder if the same could have been the case
in ancient Egypt.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Kevin
Chisholm
To: <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net" title=ronallarson@qwest.net>Ron Larson
; <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:33
PM
Subject: Re: particulates, cancer, and
heart disease

Dear Ron

A while ago, I read of an autopsy done on an Egyptian
Mummy... it was the body of a young woman, whose lungs were loaded with soot.
They figured it was the body of a Kitchen Staff person...

Kevin Chisholm
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original

<snip>

From JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se Fri Mar 8 06:40:14 2002
From: JEFF.FORSSELL at ssvh.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: smokey kitchens even for well to do
Message-ID: <A11397FBE741D411B2E700D0B74770E96C5B93@exchange.ssvh.se>

An earlier experience (Tanzania 1989) of well-meant attempts to use a
chimney to free women from a smokey Hell was to be found in the house of a
economically well off cabinet minister. The kitchen was planned to be IN the
house and a BIG chimney (about 1 square meter) was made over the iron grate
where the pots were to be above the wood fire. Though it seemed
unnecessarily expensive and not able to control like a more closed-in fire,
I would have thought that it would have at least taken away the smoke. But
it apparently didn't (not enough anyhow), so they had set up a corrugated
iron shed with 3 stone stoves out behind the house. It was, as usual,
blackened with smoke.
A drawing can be seen on page:
http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell/biofuel/3potstov/3potstov.html

Jeff Forssell (två s)
Nationellt Centrum för Flexibelt Lärande (fd SSVH)
"National Center for Flexible Learning"
Box 3024
SE-871 03 HÄRNÖSAND /Sweden
+46(0)611-55 79 48 (Work) +46(0)611-55 79 80 (Fax Work)
+46(0)611-22 1 44 (Home) (070- 35 80 306; 070-4091514 mobil)
Gamla Karlebyvägen 14 / 871 33 Härnösand
e-mail: every workday: jf@ssvh.se
(travel, visiting: jeff_forssell@hotmail.com & MSMessenger)
Personal homepage: http://www.torget.se/users/i/iluhya/index.htm
My village technology page: http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell
Instant messengers Odigo 792701 (Yahoo: jeff_forssell, ICQ: 55800587)

> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Från: Ron Larson [SMTP:ronallarson@qwest.net]
> Skickat: den 7 mars 2002 22:17
> Till: Kevin Chisholm; stoves@crest.org
> Ämne: Re: particulates, cancer, and heart disease
>
> I had thought mummification was reserved for those who were pretty
> well off.
>
> I wonder how much autopsy work goes on today in developing countries -
> and what the differences might be as a function of income level. And
> whether the autopsy could indicate that the lung soot was a cause of
> death.
>
> I have been in some well-to-do homes in developing countries where
> the wife (not servants) did at least some of the cooking. I wonder if the
> same could have been the case in ancient Egypt.
>
> Ron
>

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From tami.bond at noaa.gov Fri Mar 8 06:41:31 2002
From: tami.bond at noaa.gov (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: low power efficiency
In-Reply-To: <003101c1c5e6$e66df3c0$111d66ce@default>
Message-ID: <3C8885D7.EDBF5E38@noaa.gov>

Dean,

More technical babbling:

> A great stove would get a higher
> score because it is most efficiently changing water to steam. Lots of stoves
> loose on both scores.

What affects evaporation rate? Only the temperature of the water and the
removal of the water vapor from the liquid surface, allowing more water
to boil off. Neither one really has to do with the stove. A great stove
would get a higher score because it would lose less heat-- which as you
say is only related to the real service. If you kept the pot simmering
but evaporated NO water, the user's demand would be met, but the
(apparent) efficiency would be zero.

It seems to me that overfiring would be the biggest cause of efficiency
loss. The pot can only absorb so much heat. The rest is lost. What do
you people with real-world experience think about that? How do you keep
people from overfiring (other than getting Larry to build you a feed
magazine?)

> A 3 stone fire can be made very well and can score above 20% (Tami may hold
> the world's record for BEST THREE STONE FIRE)

I don't believe my own numbers, there. :-)

Tami

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From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Mar 8 06:42:34 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (New Dawn Engineering /ATEX)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: Chardust and coffee husks
Message-ID: <00ca01c1c6a9$8c082040$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Matthew

<<Stephen Gitonga of ITDG mentioned the efforts of the Kenya Planters
Cooperative Union (KPCU) to market coffee husk charcoal in Kenya. These
began in 1987 but have pretty much ended, with over 600 tonnes unsold at the
KPCU depot. The product was unpopular with consumers due to its smokiness,
and the marketing operation was run inefficiently as an off-shoot of a
para-statal organisation. We're re-branding the product as BBQ charcoal and
packing in clean 4 kg sacks for supermarkets and convenience stores. The
smoke problem persists to an extent, regardless of which binder is used, for
10-11 mins after lighting.>>

I would be pleased to try burning it in a Basintuthu single cooker because
if persistent smoke is a problem then it is a very good layout for getting
it up to temp fast. If you can post me 1/2 a kg or so I would be able to
test it. If it works well with a significant reduction in smoking time,
then your could produce the stoves to go with it in Kenya.

It is primarily a wood burning stove but it does very well with charcoal.
Fast temperature rise is an important feature when trying to burn smokey
fuel.

Howzat?

Regards
Crispin
New Dawn Engineering

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From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Fri Mar 8 07:27:06 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: Fwd: Re: low power efficiency
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020308204933.00a65300@mail.optusnet.com.au>

>Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 20:36:58 +1000
>To: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
>From: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>
>Subject: Re: low power efficiency
>
>Dear Dean,
>
> The absence of a lid on a pan allows evaporation of water through
> diffusion at temperatures below boiling point. For that reason I would
> expect to need a higher heat input rate into the pan to keep the contents
> at boiling point. I expect the heat loss to exceed that of the pan with a
> lid. The lid does not have to be very tight so long as the steam
> production is sufficient to keep the space under the lid filled with steam.
>
>A few days ago I sent the results of a water boiling test on my downdraft
>barbecue to Tom Miles, complete with a picture.
>
>With kind regards,
>
>Peter Verhaart
>
>
>
>At 06:46 7/03/02 -0800, you wrote:
>>Dear Emma and Tami,
>>
>>As you point out, changing water into steam ain't what we start stoves to do
>>but it seems a related method to get at differences. Food cooks as it
>>simmers with the water at boiling temperatures. How much does a lid help
>>cooking? When steam condenses on the lid the heat is transferred in some
>>part to the lid. This hot lid is on top of the food however and seems out of
>>the way, not positioned to help cooking very much. A lot of older lids let
>>the steam out anyway so the difference between lid/no lid might not be all
>>that big unless its tight?

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Mar 8 07:58:10 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: particulates, cancer, and heart disease
Message-ID: <195a01c1c610$aa2348a0$b0e0e53f@computer>

Stovers:

Yesterday's US papers reported
on a new 20-year US medical study showing quite harmful effects of
particulates. I also heard one of the authors (George Thurston) on a
television show today - and he used a phrase like a 2-year reduction in life
span for some US eastern cities. He was calling for additional
particulate-control measures in the US as being hugely
cost-effective.

My perception of the studies by
Professors Smith and Kammen is that they did not look at stove links to cancer
and heart diseases (concentrating on pneumonia and other pulmonary
diseases. Also cooks using wood stoves would have much higher particulate
levels than recorded in the US (but maybe lower sulfate levels).

I wonder if any list member can
comment on what this study (summary below) should mean relative to justifying
additional international attention to cleaning up stove emissions in developing
countries.

Ron

Lung Cancer, Cardiopulmonary
Mortality, and Long-term Exposure to Fine Particulate Air
Pollution
<A
href="http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v287n9/abs/joc11435.html#aainfo"><IMG
alt="Author Information" border=0 height=13
src="gif00082.gif" width=10
v:shapes="_x0000_i1025"> C. Arden Pope III, PhD;
Richard T. Burnett, PhD; Michael J. Thun, MD; Eugenia E. Calle, PhD; Daniel
Krewski, PhD; Kazuhiko Ito, PhD; George D. Thurston, ScD <A
name=ABSTRACT><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Context Associations have been found between
day-to-day particulate air pollution and increased risk of various adverse
health outcomes, including cardiopulmonary mortality. However, studies of health
effects of long-term particulate air pollution have been less
conclusive.
Objective To assess the relationship between
long-term exposure to fine particulate air pollution and all-cause, lung cancer,
and cardiopulmonary mortality.
Design, Setting, and
Participants Vital status and cause of death data
were collected by the American Cancer Society as part of the Cancer Prevention
II study, an ongoing prospective mortality study, which enrolled approximately
1.2 million adults in 1982. Participants completed a questionnaire detailing
individual risk factor data (age, sex, race, weight, height, smoking history,
education, marital status, diet, alcohol consumption, and occupational
exposures). The risk factor data for approximately 500 000 adults were
linked with air pollution data for metropolitan areas throughout the United
States and combined with vital status and cause of death data through December
31, 1998.
Main Outcome
Measure All-cause, lung cancer, and
cardiopulmonary mortality.
Results Fine particulate and sulfur
oxide–related pollution were associated with all-cause, lung cancer, and
cardiopulmonary mortality. Each 10-µg/m3 elevation in fine
particulate air pollution was associated with approximately a 4%, 6%, and 8%
increased risk of all-cause, cardiopulmonary, and lung cancer mortality,
respectively. Measures of coarse particle fraction and total suspended particles
were not consistently associated with mortality.
Conclusion Long-term exposure to
combustion-related fine particulate air pollution is an important environmental
risk factor for cardiopulmonary and lung cancer mortality.
JAMA.
2002;287:1132-1141"
Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020308/4d4743e7/gif00082.obj
From dstill at epud.net Fri Mar 8 07:59:01 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: Fw: Re: low power efficiency
Message-ID: <002e01c1c5f8$f8f2af60$1f1d66ce@default>

Dear Friends,

Don O'Neal, who manages the HELPS griddle stove project in Guatemala,
reminds me that families need to be matched for comparison in wood use
studies. He points out the following:

>Dean:
>
> May I throw in a comment or two. I tried comparing families wood
>consumption some with and some without stoves. The problem that I
>experienced ( and caused me to stop) was that there are family-size
>variations and wood-conservation-techniques variations that swamped what I
>was trying to study.
>
>We teach wood conservation techniques during stove training and find that
>those who practice these techniques find it makes a bigger difference in
>'real' efficiency than small differences in 'stove' efficiency. But if you
>could get the same family and same cook to cook both ways for a period of
>time you might derive a beneficial result.
>

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From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Fri Mar 8 08:35:22 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: particulates, cancer, and heart disease
In-Reply-To: <195a01c1c610$aa2348a0$b0e0e53f@computer>
Message-ID: <000001c1c619$5f70e200$ea19059a@kevin>

Dear Ron

A while ago, I read of an autopsy done on an Egyptian Mummy...
it was the body of a young woman, whose lungs were loaded with soot. They
figured it was the body of a Kitchen Staff person...

Kevin Chisholm
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Ron
Larson
To: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 3:45
PM
Subject: particulates, cancer, and heart
disease

Stovers:

Yesterday's US papers reported
on a new 20-year US medical study showing quite harmful effects of
particulates. I also heard one of the authors (George Thurston) on a
television show today - and he used a phrase like a 2-year reduction in life
span for some US eastern cities. He was calling for additional
particulate-control measures in the US as being hugely
cost-effective.

My perception of the studies
by Professors Smith and Kammen is that they did not look at stove links to
cancer and heart diseases (concentrating on pneumonia and other pulmonary
diseases. Also cooks using wood stoves would have much higher
particulate levels than recorded in the US (but maybe lower sulfate
levels).

I wonder if any list member
can comment on what this study (summary below) should mean relative to
justifying additional international attention to cleaning up stove emissions
in developing countries.

Ron

Lung Cancer, Cardiopulmonary
Mortality, and Long-term Exposure to Fine Particulate Air
Pollution
<A
href="http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v287n9/abs/joc11435.html#aainfo"><IMG height=13
alt="Author Information" src="gif00083.gif"
width=10 border=0 v:shapes="_x0000_i1025"> C. Arden
Pope III, PhD; Richard T. Burnett, PhD; Michael J. Thun, MD; Eugenia E. Calle,
PhD; Daniel Krewski, PhD; Kazuhiko Ito, PhD; George D. Thurston, ScD <A
name=ABSTRACT>
Context Associations have been found
between day-to-day particulate air pollution and increased risk of various
adverse health outcomes, including cardiopulmonary mortality. However, studies
of health effects of long-term particulate air pollution have been less
conclusive.
Objective To assess the relationship between
long-term exposure to fine particulate air pollution and all-cause, lung
cancer, and cardiopulmonary mortality.
Design, Setting, and
Participants Vital status and cause of death
data were collected by the American Cancer Society as part of the Cancer
Prevention II study, an ongoing prospective mortality study, which enrolled
approximately 1.2 million adults in 1982. Participants completed a
questionnaire detailing individual risk factor data (age, sex, race, weight,
height, smoking history, education, marital status, diet, alcohol consumption,
and occupational exposures). The risk factor data for approximately
500 000 adults were linked with air pollution data for metropolitan areas
throughout the United States and combined with vital status and cause of death
data through December 31, 1998.
Main Outcome
Measure All-cause, lung cancer, and
cardiopulmonary mortality.
Results Fine particulate and sulfur
oxide–related pollution were associated with all-cause, lung cancer, and
cardiopulmonary mortality. Each 10-µg/m3 elevation in fine
particulate air pollution was associated with approximately a 4%, 6%, and 8%
increased risk of all-cause, cardiopulmonary, and lung cancer mortality,
respectively. Measures of coarse particle fraction and total suspended
particles were not consistently associated with
mortality.
Conclusion Long-term exposure to
combustion-related fine particulate air pollution is an important
environmental risk factor for cardiopulmonary and lung cancer
mortality.
JAMA.
2002;287:1132-1141"
Url : http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020308/af19f4f1/gif00083.obj
From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Mar 8 08:47:46 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: particulates, cancer, and heart disease
In-Reply-To: <195a01c1c610$aa2348a0$b0e0e53f@computer>
Message-ID: <19aa01c1c61a$1f6a6400$b0e0e53f@computer>

Stovers:
I failed in two ways on sending
the information on this particulates study.

1. I should have given this
site:

<A
href="http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v287n9/abs/joc11435.html">http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v287n9/abs/joc11435.html

2. I thought I had downloaded the full
article - but now find I need to pay $9.00 for it. But I have free access
to it through a family member, so will report more later.

Ron
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Ron
Larson
To: <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 12:45
PM
Subject: particulates, cancer, and heart
disease

Stovers:

<snip>

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Fri Mar 8 12:22:29 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: low power efficiency
Message-ID: <000101c1c6f2$68fed140$5552c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Ms Bond,
the discussion so far shows that the boiling and evaporation test that we
have so far been conducting, gives us just that, i.e. efficiency of boiling
and evaporating water. It does not really reflect the cooking efficiency of
a stove, which is operated in many different ways. One of the standard
procedures in cooking anything is to bring the water to a boil, then cover
the pot, reduce the flame and just allow the pot to simmer. Experience with
solar cookers and also with the hot box show, that one does not even require
a temperature of 100 degrees Celsius for cooking. With the pot just
simmering, there would be very little evaporation, and, as you have rightly
mentioned, the efficiency of the stove would be near zero, and yet the
cooking process would be completed with very little fuel. Therefore, the
test that has been recommended by the Ministry of Non-Conventional Energy
Sources, Government of India, requires the tester to keep a series of
standard pots ready, filled with a certain constant amount of water. The pot
is covered with a lid. As soon as water in one pot reaches a certain
temperature, say 90 or 95 degrees, one takes it down and sets the next pot
on the stove. In this way, only the rise in temperature of the water is
taken into account and not the amount of water evaporated. One has to make
some allowance for the conductivity of the metal of the pot, because heat
would be lost through the surface of the pot.
A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Tami Bond <tami.bond@noaa.gov>
To: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: ethos <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
Date: Friday, March 08, 2002 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: low power efficiency

>
>Dean,
>
>More technical babbling:
>
>> A great stove would get a higher
>> score because it is most efficiently changing water to steam. Lots of
stoves
>> loose on both scores.
>
>What affects evaporation rate? Only the temperature of the water and the
>removal of the water vapor from the liquid surface, allowing more water
>to boil off. Neither one really has to do with the stove. A great stove
>would get a higher score because it would lose less heat-- which as you
>say is only related to the real service. If you kept the pot simmering
>but evaporated NO water, the user's demand would be met, but the
>(apparent) efficiency would be zero.
>
>It seems to me that overfiring would be the biggest cause of efficiency
>loss. The pot can only absorb so much heat. The rest is lost. What do
>you people with real-world experience think about that? How do you keep
>people from overfiring (other than getting Larry to build you a feed
>magazine?)
>
>> A 3 stone fire can be made very well and can score above 20% (Tami may
hold
>> the world's record for BEST THREE STONE FIRE)
>
>I don't believe my own numbers, there. :-)
>
>Tami
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction)
>http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original)
>
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>-
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>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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>

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From dstill at epud.net Fri Mar 8 15:55:48 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: low power testing
Message-ID: <001201c1c643$2c571ea0$651d66ce@default>

Dear Friends,

Dr. Karve writes:

Experience with
>solar cookers and also with the hot box show, that one does not even
require
>a temperature of 100 degrees Celsius for cooking. With the pot just
>simmering, there would be very little evaporation, and, as you have rightly
>mentioned, the efficiency of the stove would be near zero, and yet the
>cooking process would be completed with very little fuel

In my limited experience, a pot when simmering, needs to be kept close to
boiling temperatures for food to cook in normal time periods. Hayboxes need
to keep as close to boiling temperatures as possible since cooking almost
ceases to occur below 170F. When the water is kept near to boiling, there is
a lot of evaporation, not a little. If the temperature dropped significantly
so that there was little evaporation, cooking times greatly increase which
requires a greater input of fuel.

Measuring latent heat scores high if the stove/pot combination is good at
sending just the right amount of heat to keep the pot gently boiling. So the
stove needs to be able to give off adjustable amounts of heat. Needs to have
good turn down. Tami is so right when she says that the wasteful part of a
stove would be blowing too much heat past the pot. (Eindhoven charts exist
that describe the optimal relationship and I'll try to look this up.)The
stove/pot combo scores badly as well if it delivers too little heat because
water temperatures fall and there is less evaporation. Wisps of steam start
happening around 140F and build up to raging plumes at 212F. So I like the
steam measuring test because if I just measure sensible heat the stove is
not tested for ability to adjust heat delivered. On the other hand,
measuring the water temperature rise is entirely sensible.

Best,

Dean

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Mar 9 09:29:33 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: low power testing
In-Reply-To: <001201c1c643$2c571ea0$651d66ce@default>
Message-ID: <deok8u4kldd9km6p38vlibdcqe105q084h@4ax.com>

On Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:46:33 -0800, "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
wrote:

>
>In my limited experience, a pot when simmering, needs to be kept close to
>boiling temperatures for food to cook in normal time periods.

Tami hinted at something temperature related here. No one has really
defined cooking for me. For starters I see it as a means of:

1) sterilising pathogens, 70C for a number of minutes seems to achieve
this for common ones (salmonella, listeria and e.coli??). I have
previously posted differing temperatures for other less common
infectious agents.

2) hydrating the food such as starch

3) providing warmth

?4)? other more complex chemical reactions

> Hayboxes need
>to keep as close to boiling temperatures as possible since cooking almost
>ceases to occur below 170F.

Hmm 77C

With the thermal mass of water (being a major part of the pot's
contents) what insulation is required to slow the cooling from 100 to
77 in the time required for cooking?

> When the water is kept near to boiling, there is
>a lot of evaporation, not a little.

Pete Verhaart has explained this, it is why even a poorly fitting lid
is better than none. As the air temperature above the liquid increase
its RH goes down, it is able to carry away more water if there is air
circulation (i.e. no lid). This removes 2.3MJ+ from the fluid at
whatever temperature it is. Steam is a very good medium to transfer
heat, it will still do this via condensation to the lid, the lid to
air surface will limit this loss to what can be carried away by air
convection over this surface, which sits at 100C. Because of the
latent heat of steam being so much higher than the specific heat of
air no such limit exists for an air vapour mix rising from the pot.

An illustration of this is in the design of a condensing clothes
dryer, the ambient air fan is far larger than the circulation fan,
pointing to the fact that removing heat from the lid is more limiting
than producing a saturated hot air/steam under the lid.

> If the temperature dropped significantly
>so that there was little evaporation, cooking times greatly increase which
>requires a greater input of fuel.

Which of course is why a steam pressure cooker works fast, its
temperature is not held at 100C.
<snip>

> Wisps of steam start
>happening around 140F and build up to raging plumes at 212F.

I think you are mistaken, if you can see visible water droplets what
you have is a sol. What you are seeing is an air/water phase being
created below 100C above the liquid surface, this subsequently rises
into the colder convection stream above the pot. This cools the air
water vapour below its dewpoint, and hence produces the visible sol,
and must be a significant means of transferring heat (which has been
thermally costly to get into the pot as you have many times pointed
out) water having a latent heat some 500 times its specific heat.

I believe a lid should be used in most cases.
--
AJH

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From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Sat Mar 9 11:22:03 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: Blower parameters (for updraft biomass cookers)?
In-Reply-To: <151.9c27725.29b197ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ntrk8uc4crg004aqv2hp45og95thbolrk9@4ax.com>

On Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:51:41 +0100, Jan Cáp <capjan@vol.cz> wrote:

>I very interested in cooking devices based on "updraft gasifier" principle
>with forced konvection (as is cooker by Thomas Reed).

In the absence of a reply from a more learned source:

Tom's turbo stove or the reed-larson idd stove are special cases of an
updraught burner. The "normal" updraught burner has the products of
combustion rising through the fuel, both drying and pyrolising it.
Natural convection will achieve this. Forced convection has a place
when sufficient chimney effect is not available (height or cooking
constraints). to aid mixing of combustion gases produced and to gasify
char in the bottom of the burner to CO rather than convert it to CO2
in the lower part of the stove, the CO then joining with other off
gases to produce a secondary flame in the "working" part of the stove
under the pot.
>
>Which blower type/construction is good for this purpose (membraned or
>other)?

Small electric fans from PCs seem popular, there are many other ways.
>
>How mouch air input (blower power) is needed /optimal for small burner (1-5
>kW thermal output)?

This is entirely dependent on your stove configuration, in general you
need to pass in excess of 7kg of air over each kg of dry biomass you
use as fuel. The pressure difference between the air input and the
flue outlet will determine this. The product of the volume of air
(related to its mass and absolute temperature) times this pressure
difference is the total power required. Some of this power will be
provided by the chimney effect. In addition to this is the power
needed to promote turbulence in the secondary flame, again very much
down to burner configuration.

I believe Tom Reed has powered stoves of 2-3kW(t) output with 3W and
10W fans to augment natural draught. As I believe fans only achieve
50% efficiency you can calculate the required electrical power for any
given air movement against a back pressure.

--
AJH

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Mar 9 14:46:19 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: Blower parameters (for updraft biomass cookers)?
In-Reply-To: <151.9c27725.29b197ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c1c7cd$6059b740$cae0e53f@computer>

Jan: In addition to Andrew's kind and full response, four more points:

a) Make sure you are lighting on the top
b) The forced convection approach is used by Tom to achieve mixing via a
clever technique not possible with natural convection (or at least no one
has reported success I believe) so as to achieve a blue flame. Some on the
list have said they preferred a yellow flame to get better radiative
transfer to the pot.
c) The combustion of the charcoal after pyrolysis is complete is occurring
well away from the pot - so not much is added to the useful heat output.even
as the necessary increased air is supplied.
d) On the "solar cooking" list about a month ago there was mention of a
spring-powered fan/blower used to move air around - much as in a convection
oven (reported I think at about $15). I still haven't heard the name of the
manufacturer and hope someone on this list can provide more data on this
strictly mechanical design.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: AJH <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Blower parameters (for updraft biomass cookers)?

On Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:51:41 +0100, Jan Cáp <capjan@vol.cz> wrote:

>I very interested in cooking devices based on "updraft gasifier" principle
>with forced konvection (as is cooker by Thomas Reed).

In the absence of a reply from a more learned source:

Small electric fans from PCs seem popular, there are many other ways.
>
>How mouch air input (blower power) is needed /optimal for small burner (1-5
>kW thermal output)?

--
AJH

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From atprojects at global.net.pg Sun Mar 10 13:47:29 2002
From: atprojects at global.net.pg (ATprojects Inc.)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: Coffee R oasting
Message-ID: <l03130300b8b1846e64a7@[202.165.194.114]>

Dear Stovers

Just a quick note regarding JohnO's e-mail of the 3rd that talked about the
possibility of using husks as a fuel so the coffee growers can roast their
coffee before exporting.

I don't know whether this applies to the other coffee growing countries,
but here in Papua New Guinea coffee husks are really only used by the
larger processors when they "dry" the coffee (to between 2 or 4% moisture
content) before exporting.

The actual roasting is done by individual coffee companies generally in
North America and Europe. This is because a lot of the coffee is actually
blended to give different flavours, for example Papua New Guinea gets paid
a premium for it's coffee because it has a very good taste (we said the
best!) and it is mixed with some of the lower grade coffees. So in terms
of roasting it here in PNG, this wouldn't make economic sense.

In the same way it is uneconomical for Papua New Guinea to start up a
instant coffee factory and in fact although we are a major coffee grower in
the Pacific we import all our instant coffee from the Philippines. This is
primarily done because the coffee grown in Papua New Guinea is of such a
high quality that it would be wasteful to use this(in total) in instant
coffee, as generally instant coffee is made of the low grade coffees !. I
hope this hasn't put you off your morning cuppa.

Regards

Steve Layton

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From rstanley at legacyfound.org Sun Mar 10 19:39:11 2002
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: Chardust and coffee husks
In-Reply-To: <00ca01c1c6a9$8c082040$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <3C8A2EAC.469578D3@legacyfound.org>

Crispin,

Am here in KAmpala and will be testing ot coffee husk blends in or wet process
holey briquettes. The folks we train usually go on to test their own
site-specific blends of available resources.

They tend to get around the smoke problem by controlling the % of
smoky ingredients (like coffee husks) with other quicker igniting residues.
Certain groups tried it in Malawi and again in Kenya. Have been away from these
parts for awhile, and Email does not penetrate most of the groups we are
working with, but I intend to and I will catch up with them with a visit over
the next month or so, to see what their experience has been and report back.

I'm cc'ing this to Ben Bryant ,the godfather of the holey briquette, for his
ideas too.

Richard Stanley

New Dawn Engineering /ATEX wrote:

> Dear Matthew
>
> <<Stephen Gitonga of ITDG mentioned the efforts of the Kenya Planters
> Cooperative Union (KPCU) to market coffee husk charcoal in Kenya. These
> began in 1987 but have pretty much ended, with over 600 tonnes unsold at the
> KPCU depot. The product was unpopular with consumers due to its smokiness,
> and the marketing operation was run inefficiently as an off-shoot of a
> para-statal organisation. We're re-branding the product as BBQ charcoal and
> packing in clean 4 kg sacks for supermarkets and convenience stores. The
> smoke problem persists to an extent, regardless of which binder is used, for
> 10-11 mins after lighting.>>
>
> I would be pleased to try burning it in a Basintuthu single cooker because
> if persistent smoke is a problem then it is a very good layout for getting
> it up to temp fast. If you can post me 1/2 a kg or so I would be able to
> test it. If it works well with a significant reduction in smoking time,
> then your could produce the stoves to go with it in Kenya.
>
> It is primarily a wood burning stove but it does very well with charcoal.
> Fast temperature rise is an important feature when trying to burn smokey
> fuel.
>
> Howzat?
>
> Regards
> Crispin
> New Dawn Engineering
>
> -
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From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Mar 10 23:29:20 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (New Dawn Engineering /ATEX)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: Paul's visit to Swaziland
Message-ID: <004801c1c8df$cbcc2360$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Stovers

Dr Paul has been here again - left this morning to Maputo. Yesterday we had
a chance to light up the Basintuthu stove so he could see the rapid boiling
test. We did not weigh the wood this time, but it was about 200 gm of mixed
gum tree and pine. I lit the fire and put on the chimney. He took a
couple of pictures so you all could see the package. It boiled in about 2
minutes which is when the fire pretty much was finished. It was slow
getting to secondary combustion (about 45 seconds). At 3 minutes it had
boiled off 40cc of water.

He demonstrated his Juntos apparatus and we talked about charcoaling and
smoke. He is here only briefly so we will make it back one more time in 2
weeks before returning to the USA.

Regards
Crispin

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From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Mar 11 05:53:08 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:43 2004
Subject: Fw: Measuring temperature
Message-ID: <004f01c1c915$30fd7e20$93ac6441@computer>

stovers:

Getting this message from the solar cooking list, I looked up the web
site below and found a good selection as advertised. I have ordered their
free literature - but not yet ordered any equipment.

My question is whether anyone on the stoves list has used thermometers
to try to increase efficiency. I don't remember any discussion of this
topic. Seems like we should be able to reduce excess secondary air and/or
change parameters to increase the temperature at the bottom of the pot - or
reduce it at the top and have a pretty good real-time stand-in for
efficiency.

Some of the thermometers shown have wide temperature range, multiple
inputs, digital readouts and prices near $100. Any thoughts?

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Keavney <Ckeavney@mkl-mmaf.org>
To: <solarcooking-l@igc.topica.com>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 7:18 AM
Subject: RE: Measuring temperature

TWIMC:

My source for temperature-measureing equipment is Omega Engineering of
Stamford, CT (www.omega.com). They are a supplier for industry and
laboratories, and they have a huge selection.

Chris Keavney
Maryknoll Mission Association of the Faithful
PO Box 307
Maryknoll, NY 10545
914-944-0300 ext. 221

To remove yourself, send a message to webmaster@solarcooking.org and request
that you be removed.

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From tombreed at attbi.com Mon Mar 11 06:26:59 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: Measuring temperature
In-Reply-To: <004f01c1c915$30fd7e20$93ac6441@computer>
Message-ID: <001101c1c918$3a49d5c0$5f80fd0c@attbi.com>

Dear Ron and All:

Thermocouples are cheap and dependable for measuring temperatures, type K
(Chromel Alumel) up to 1200 C.

However, be careful to know what you are measuring. A thermocouple placed
in a gas stream will radiate energy and read a temperature reflecting the
balance between convection in from the gas (weak, but velocity dependent)
and radiation out from the solid thermocouple (increasing with T^4).

Thus a metal thermocouple placed in a gas at 1600C may only read 1000 C. It
is amazing how few good engineers realize this problem. (There are methods
for correction, but much more complex and costly.)

I have a 12 point manual thermcouple digital readout on my panel board, cost
about $150.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 8:55 AM
Subject: Fw: Measuring temperature

> stovers:
>
> Getting this message from the solar cooking list, I looked up the web
> site below and found a good selection as advertised. I have ordered their
> free literature - but not yet ordered any equipment.
>
> My question is whether anyone on the stoves list has used thermometers
> to try to increase efficiency. I don't remember any discussion of this
> topic. Seems like we should be able to reduce excess secondary air and/or
> change parameters to increase the temperature at the bottom of the pot -
or
> reduce it at the top and have a pretty good real-time stand-in for
> efficiency.
>
> Some of the thermometers shown have wide temperature range, multiple
> inputs, digital readouts and prices near $100. Any thoughts?
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris Keavney <Ckeavney@mkl-mmaf.org>
> To: <solarcooking-l@igc.topica.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 7:18 AM
> Subject: RE: Measuring temperature
>
>
> TWIMC:
>
> My source for temperature-measureing equipment is Omega Engineering of
> Stamford, CT (www.omega.com). They are a supplier for industry and
> laboratories, and they have a huge selection.
>
>
>
> Chris Keavney
> Maryknoll Mission Association of the Faithful
> PO Box 307
> Maryknoll, NY 10545
> 914-944-0300 ext. 221
>
> To remove yourself, send a message to webmaster@solarcooking.org and
request
> that you be removed.
>
> ==^================================================================
> This email was sent to: ronallarson@qwest.net
>
> EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://igc.topica.com/u/?aVxirP.aVIilt
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>
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> http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
> ==^================================================================
>
>
>
>
> -
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From snkm at btl.net Mon Mar 11 07:58:46 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Measuring temperature
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020311115646.009057c0@wgs1.btl.net>

Dear Tom and All:

Is that problem over come when the TC is in a "well"??

such a well being a thick inconel tube -- blocked at one end -- with the
other open to accept the thermocouple. The closed end inserted in the area
for temperature measurement -- the open end outside that area with leads to
the instrument.

I just bought a Triplett multimeter (model 9015) that besides measuring
voltages, amps, resistance, capacitance -- also counts frequency and does a
K type TC to 1200 C

Cost was $60.

For an extra $60 you can get this with an interface for serial
communication to any computer.

And -- it has 1 inch digital read out for us older guys with compromised
vision.

Just search "Triplett meters" on Google for more info.

I found the best price -- bought it by I-net -- and had it mailed to me
here in Belize. From beginning to end -- two weeks.

Peter

At 09:17 AM 3/11/2002 -0700, Thomas Reed wrote:
>Dear Ron and All:
>
>Thermocouples are cheap and dependable for measuring temperatures, type K
>(Chromel Alumel) up to 1200 C.
>
>However, be careful to know what you are measuring. A thermocouple placed
>in a gas stream will radiate energy and read a temperature reflecting the
>balance between convection in from the gas (weak, but velocity dependent)
>and radiation out from the solid thermocouple (increasing with T^4).
>
>Thus a metal thermocouple placed in a gas at 1600C may only read 1000 C. It
>is amazing how few good engineers realize this problem. (There are methods
>for correction, but much more complex and costly.)
>
>I have a 12 point manual thermcouple digital readout on my panel board, cost
>about $150.
>
>Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
>To: <stoves@crest.org>
>Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 8:55 AM
>Subject: Fw: Measuring temperature
>
>
>> stovers:
>>
>> Getting this message from the solar cooking list, I looked up the web
>> site below and found a good selection as advertised. I have ordered their
>> free literature - but not yet ordered any equipment.
>>
>> My question is whether anyone on the stoves list has used thermometers
>> to try to increase efficiency. I don't remember any discussion of this
>> topic. Seems like we should be able to reduce excess secondary air and/or
>> change parameters to increase the temperature at the bottom of the pot -
>or
>> reduce it at the top and have a pretty good real-time stand-in for
>> efficiency.
>>
>> Some of the thermometers shown have wide temperature range, multiple
>> inputs, digital readouts and prices near $100. Any thoughts?
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Chris Keavney <Ckeavney@mkl-mmaf.org>
>> To: <solarcooking-l@igc.topica.com>
>> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 7:18 AM
>> Subject: RE: Measuring temperature
>>
>>
>> TWIMC:
>>
>> My source for temperature-measureing equipment is Omega Engineering of
>> Stamford, CT (www.omega.com). They are a supplier for industry and
>> laboratories, and they have a huge selection.
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Keavney
>> Maryknoll Mission Association of the Faithful
>> PO Box 307
>> Maryknoll, NY 10545
>> 914-944-0300 ext. 221
>>
>> To remove yourself, send a message to webmaster@solarcooking.org and
>request
>> that you be removed.
>>
>> ==^================================================================
>> This email was sent to: ronallarson@qwest.net
>>
>> EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://igc.topica.com/u/?aVxirP.aVIilt
>> Or send an email to: solarcooking-l-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com
>>
>> T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
>> http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
>> ==^================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Stoves List Archives and Website:
>> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200202/
>> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ (Under construction)
>> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Stoves.html (Original)
>>
>> Stoves List Moderators:
>> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>> Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
>> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>>
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>>
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>> -
>> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>>
>> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Chamber.htm
>>
>
>
>-
>Gasification List Archives:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
>
>Gasification List Moderator:
>Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
>www.webpan.com/BEF
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>-
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>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>

-
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Mar 11 13:36:35 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: Measuring temperature
Message-ID: <71.1bda7b77.29be997f@aol.com>

Dear Tom, Ron, Peter and all,
Some useful information here, I would like to know if a well would
help the flowing gas readings for a thermocouple or is there a better way?
This is critical to many measuring uses. A thermometer will not read
accurately under the stars for the same reason. It only gives a reading
indicative of surface temperatures due to radiative cooling.
I will be slipping mostly into lurker class for a while as my business
is really picking up. Thanks all for the interest on my budding website. I
recorded 74 hits in the first week for my simple beginning webpage. I hope
to develop this considerably more with time so stop by again. Thanks for all
of the support from listers in conclusion of my first year listing with the
BEF. Hope 2002 is a brighter year for everyone.
If anyone has a specific question I can help with, I'll still make
time as I can. I leave the floor open for new subjects and new voices. To
all you lurkers. No one will ever know just what you know, until it's shared.
It my be more valuable shared than you think. This from personal
experience.
I had an electronics teacher who said that the only stupid question
was one that was never asked. With all of this talent in one place that
statement resounds.
Take care and I'll see you more in the next slow spell.
Daniel Dimiduk

Stoves List Moderators:
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Alex English, english@adan.kingston.net
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From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Mar 12 01:07:46 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: low power efficiency
Message-ID: <4c.7eb2c71.29bf3b28@aol.com>

>Reply in text

Subj:Re: low power efficiency
Date:3/8/02 5:24:05 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in
To:tami.bond@noaa.gov
CC:stoves@crest.org
Sent from the Internet

> Along this same lines a tester could be constructed consisting of a larger tank of water at a pre-determined temperature. The water could be circulated through a sealed test pot with a closed lid by gravity to another pot over time. The temperature and volume of the lower tank could then be measured.
Along these same lines, a single tank of known volume could be plumbed to a sealed pot with a recirculating pump. At the end of the experiment the pot would be drained into the tank and the temperature of the tank measured.
This is a method of measuring solar heat storage so I'm sure it would work fine with a stove.
Daniel Dimiduk.

From tombreed at attbi.com Tue Mar 12 04:27:46 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Thomas Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: Measuring accurate flame temperatures
In-Reply-To: <71.1bda7b77.29be997f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002001c1c9d0$071ff540$5f80fd0c@attbi.com>

Dear Dan and All:

Dan often has the right questions and often the right answers. Since you
ask, Dan, the gas temperature can be measured accurately using a "suction
thermocouple" or a "sodium line reversal" spectroscopic technique.

The bare thermocouple radiates powerfully at 1000 C and the hot gas at
1500-2000 C is moving very slowly over the tip, resulting in low heat
transfer to the TC and rapid heat loss.

To fix this, a close fitting tube lined with radiation shields is attached
around the thermocouple and attached to a vacuum source. The radiation
shields reduce radiant heat loss from the thermocouple. Gas is drawn over
the tip at high velocity, thus increasing the convective heat transfer. A
plot of gas velocity vs indicated T should asymptote out at the correct gas
temperature.

I think this was first developed (1950?) by the National Bureau of Standards
(now NIST?).

Alternatively one can use "sodium line reversal" to measure accurate flame
temperature. BUT NOT a bare TC.

Onward, TOM REED BEF
----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland@aol.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>; <gasification@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:36 PM
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Measuring temperature

> Dear Tom, Ron, Peter and all,
> Some useful information here, I would like to know if a well would
> help the flowing gas readings for a thermocouple or is there a better way?
> This is critical to many measuring uses. A thermometer will not read
> accurately under the stars for the same reason. It only gives a reading
> indicative of surface temperatures due to radiative cooling.
> I will be slipping mostly into lurker class for a while as my
business
> is really picking up. Thanks all for the interest on my budding website. I
> recorded 74 hits in the first week for my simple beginning webpage. I
hope
> to develop this considerably more with time so stop by again. Thanks for
all
> of the support from listers in conclusion of my first year listing with
the
> BEF. Hope 2002 is a brighter year for everyone.
> If anyone has a specific question I can help with, I'll still make
> time as I can. I leave the floor open for new subjects and new voices. To
> all you lurkers. No one will ever know just what you know, until it's
shared.
> It my be more valuable shared than you think. This from personal
> experience.
> I had an electronics teacher who said that the only stupid question
> was one that was never asked. With all of this talent in one place that
> statement resounds.
> Take care and I'll see you more in the next slow spell.
> Daniel Dimiduk
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
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> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>

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From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Mar 12 14:43:46 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Measuring accurate flame temperatures
Message-ID: <14e.a55134c.29bffabc@aol.com>

Dear Tom Reed:
Could you fill those of us less educated types in? Describe the
sodium line reversal technique for flame temperature measurement.
Dan Dimiduk

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From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Mar 13 09:59:16 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: Wood fired dryer in Nicaragua
In-Reply-To: <00c101c1c3bd$622c7300$LocalHost@default>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020313105524.0154c9f0@mail.easystreet.com>

Photos of Larry's Wood fired dryer are now posted on the Stove Web page at

http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

See the discussion at: http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200203/

Also posted are photos Dean posted of a rocket stove designed for HELPS in
Guatemala.

Thanks Dean

Regards,

Tom Miles

At 12:42 PM 3/4/2002 -0800, Dean Still wrote:
>Dr. Larry Winiarski has just returned from Nicaragua where he built a
>prototype wood fired dryer for cacao beans. Working with Winrock
>International, Larry spent about two weeks building and testing the first of
>four dryers. Six pictures of the dryer are posted here on CREST.
>
>The dryer is based on the Rocket style plancha (griddle) stove design.
>Sticks of wood are fed into a foot square opening, the horizontal feed
>magazine, that leads to the base of an equally sized three foot high
>vertical internal chimney made from ceiling tiles called baldosa. The feed
>magazine and internal chimney are in the shape of the letter "L". The
>combustion chamber and internal chimney are surrounded by light weight
>pumice rock that insulates around the small fire. The griddle is four feet
>wide by ten feet long and sits on top of a brick box containing the firebox
>and internal chimney. Pumice fills the entire box leaving only a one inch
>gap between the rock and the underside of the large griddle. The opening of
>the internal chimney is level with the pumice surface. Hot flue gases pass
>through this one inch gap exiting out of the back of the box into a 12 foot
>high chimney.
>
>A metal box, open at the bottom, elevated one inch above the griddle, holds
>the trays of beans. A clear plastic cover is supported above the trays of
>beans and this cover is held by air pressure against the sides of the
>supporting box. Air is sucked in through the one inch opening and is pulled
>through the trays. The moist air then travels through the tunnel created by
>the clear plastic and exits in a chimney that surrounds the inner chimney
>connected to the fire. The larger external chimney, 20 feet tall, is warmed
>by the heat passing through the inner chimney, which helps to create better
>draft. This increased draft helps to shorten drying periods.
>
>Drying only requires temperatures around 140F. In use, the 12" by 12" fuel
>magazine is about one third full of sticks when in operation. Of course,
>adding a small fan increases productivity. Since it frequently rains in this
>locale, nearly every day, solar drying is difficult which makes wood fired
>drying necessary.
>
>Check out the photos!
>
>Best,
>
>Dean
>

Thomas R Miles tmiles@trmiles.com
T R Miles, TCI Tel 503-292-0107
1470 SW Woodward Way Fax 503-292-2919
Portland, OR 97225 USA

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From dstill at epud.net Wed Mar 13 11:57:29 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: cacao dryer
Message-ID: <001e01c1caab$b9e51120$7d1d66ce@default>

Dear Friends,

A quick clarification that the cacao dryer Dr. Larry Winiarski helped to
design and build in Nicaragua was financed by USAID, for the local NGO
ACODEMUBE, facilitated by Winrock. Many thanks to all concerned for a great
project!

Best,

Dean

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From elk at wananchi.com Thu Mar 14 00:55:47 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: Using Bagasse- Chardust's 'CaneCoal'
Message-ID: <00f201c1cb47$4829cca0$6341083e@default>

Well, it's official now. Chardust has joined up
with the Chemelil Sugar Company Ltd. in Western Kenya to establish a
prototype plant for the manufacture of charcoal briquettes from waste
bagasse.

With an enabling grant from Britain's DFID
(Department for International Development) through their Business
Partnership Program (BPP), Chardust and Chemelil, a parastatal
company, aim to have a plant up and running within 18 months producing a
minimum of 5,000 kg per day of 'CaneCoal'.

Production trials with bagasse at Chardust's
Nairobi facility have consistently turned out a good usable substitute
for lump charcoal made from wood. We hope that by focusing on the
utilization of huge quantities of agri-industrial waste available within
East Africa- including the coffee, timber and rice industries- we can play a
significant part in reversing the trend of deforestation in this
region.

For more information, visit our website
at www.chardust.com
elk

--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

From ronallarson at qwest.net Thu Mar 14 04:14:23 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: Using Bagasse- Chardust's 'CaneCoal'
In-Reply-To: <00f201c1cb47$4829cca0$6341083e@default>
Message-ID: <000c01c1cb62$f98d38e0$25f86641@computer>

Elsen:

Congratulations! A few
questions:

1. How will bagasse differ from
sawdust in your base process?

2. Will you now be using more mechanization -
or still a lot of hand labor?

3. I viewed you web site for the first time
in a few months (nice combination of materials). I am interested in your
water heater - which looks like it should be quite efficient. Can you say
more about it? Cost, amount and type of insulation, diameters and height
(gas flow up inside or outside?), efficiency (maybe measure in briquettes per
tankful?), speed to reach boiling temperature, etc.

Ron
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
elk
To: <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:58
AM
Subject: Using Bagasse- Chardust's
'CaneCoal'

Well, it's official now. Chardust has joined up
with the Chemelil Sugar Company Ltd. in Western Kenya to establish a
prototype plant for the manufacture of charcoal briquettes from waste
bagasse.

With an enabling grant from Britain's DFID
(Department for International Development) through their Business
Partnership Program (BPP), Chardust and Chemelil, a parastatal
company, aim to have a plant up and running within 18 months producing a
minimum of 5,000 kg per day of 'CaneCoal'.

Production trials with bagasse at Chardust's
Nairobi facility have consistently turned out a good usable substitute
for lump charcoal made from wood. We hope that by focusing on
the utilization of huge quantities of agri-industrial waste available
within East Africa- including the coffee, timber and rice industries- we can
play a significant part in reversing the trend of deforestation in this
region.

For more information, visit our website
at www.chardust.com
elk

--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

From elk at wananchi.com Thu Mar 14 09:51:53 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: Using Bagasse- Chardust's 'CaneCoal'
In-Reply-To: <00f201c1cb47$4829cca0$6341083e@default>
Message-ID: <003001c1cb90$3b35df40$5441083e@pentium333>

Hi Ronal;

You ask:

1. How will bagasse
differ from sawdust in your base process?

No major difference in process technique between sawdust &
bagasse. The latter is easier to dry & currently seems to be more available-
greater quantities causing a larger disposal problem- though in fewer
places.

2. Will you now be using more
mechanization - or still a lot of hand labor?

Aside from the use of a tractor with a front-end bucket and 4-ton trailer
for haulage, we will be heavy on the labour- probably employing 15 to 20 people
at 5 ton/day output. Increased mechanization certainly is an option, but not
always the best solution for various reasons in this part of Africa.

3. I viewed your web site for the
first time in a few months (nice combination of materials). I am
interested in your water heater - which looks like it should be quite
efficient.

My original design is still- I think- posted on the Stoves Website. The
heaters come in 90, 225, 325 and 450 litre capacities. They are based on a
vertical-tube boiler design, with multiple pipes as chimneys running through the
water column in the tanks. The firebox is in the base- a removable tray holds
the fuel. The pipes/chimney tubes are welded into a tight central cluster
just above the tray, angling out to the upper outer edge of the tank.Efficiency
is close to 50%: 2.5 kg of our Vendor's Waste Briquettes heats 90 litres of
water from 15 C to over 85 C in two hours with an un-insulated unit. The 450
litre heater takes 12.5 kg VWB. Insulation can be either the classic
chicken-wire & plaster applied on-site or fibreglass with galvanized sheet
steel or aluminium cladding applied in our workshop. The three larger heaters
are hot-dipped galvanised inside & out. For the smallest (90 litre),
galvanising is optional.

But the best thing about the heater is it's economy. In Kenya we pay $0.14
per kilowatt-hour for mains electricity. Heating water with these units &
our VWB costs a mere 20% of the cost of immersion-heating with
electricity.

rgds;

elk

----------------------------------------------Elsen L.Karstad, Nairobi
Kenyaelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com/">http://www.chardust.com/

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Ron
Larson
To: <A href="mailto:elk@wananchi.com"
title=elk@wananchi.com>elk ; <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 5:17
PM
Subject: Re: Using Bagasse- Chardust's
'CaneCoal'

Elsen:

Congratulations! A few
questions:

Ron
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
elk
To: <A href="mailto:stoves@crest.org"
title=stoves@crest.org>stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 3:58
AM
Subject: Using Bagasse- Chardust's
'CaneCoal'

Well, it's official now. Chardust has joined up
with the Chemelil Sugar Company Ltd. in Western Kenya to establish a
prototype plant for the manufacture of charcoal briquettes from waste
bagasse.

With an enabling grant from Britain's DFID
(Department for International Development) through their Business
Partnership Program (BPP), Chardust and Chemelil, a parastatal
company, aim to have a plant up and running within 18 months producing
a minimum of 5,000 kg per day of 'CaneCoal'.

Production trials with bagasse at Chardust's
Nairobi facility have consistently turned out a good usable substitute
for lump charcoal made from wood. We hope that by focusing on
the utilization of huge quantities of agri-industrial waste available
within East Africa- including the coffee, timber and rice industries- we can
play a significant part in reversing the trend of deforestation in this
region.

For more information, visit our website
at www.chardust.com
elk

--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Mar 18 04:16:52 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: Fw: Ashden Award
Message-ID: <002001c1ce87$f4fcce80$2ff76641@computer>

Stovers: Just received this message
about THE major Renewable Energy Award of this year. Those of us
privileged to attend the Stoves Conference in Pune know how well deserved this
is. I don't know how many nominees there were, but A.D. (ARTI) had to
compete in the final stage (in London) against 3 others.

To learn more, I found
these two announcements:

<A
href="http://www.whitley-award.org/stories/news081.html">http://www.whitley-award.org/stories/news081.html
<A
href="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=3770308">http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=3770308

A.D.:
Wonderful !!! Please give us on this list a bit more on the
experience.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: <A
href="mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in" title=adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>A.D.
Karve
To: <A href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net"
title=ronallarson@qwest.net>Ronal Larson
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 1:16 AM
Subject: Ashden Award

Dear Ron,
I am just back from London after receiving, on behalf
of Appropriate Rural Technology Institute, the first prize of Ashden Award
for Renewable Energy of Pounds Sterling 30,000. Feels great to be
internationally recognised.
Nandu

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Mar 19 13:32:29 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: Ashden Award
Message-ID: <000001c1cfa1$823ffb40$1082c7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Stovers,
there were many congratulatory messages from members of the
Stoves List and many also wanted to know details of the prize winning
project. I thank all the well wishers for the congratulatory
messages and give below a summary of the project submitted by us for the
award.
The Ashen Award is presented every year to a project
utilising a renewable source of energy for the good of the society. The
other conditions of the award are that the work should be innovative, that it
should have been conducted in a developing country, that the renewable energy
should be used in an environmentally non-polluting manner, either in education,
or in promoting health or for increasing the income of the poor people in that
country.
The project submitted by us was based on the use of dry
sugarcane leaves, that are left in the field after harvesting sugarcane.
Maharashtra, the state in India, where we operate, has 450,000 hectares under
sugarcane. Each hectare produces 10 tonnes of dry leaves. Being
highly silicified, lignified and devoid of any nutritive elements, they cannot
be used as cattle fodder. The leaves are about a meter long and they form
a layer almost 20 to 30 cm thick in the field. If left in the field, they take
almost a year to rot, and therefore they interfere with agricultural operations
like ploughing, irrigation, fertilizer application, etc. In order to get rid of
them, farmers just burn them in the field itself. In this way about 4.5
million tonnes of biomass are burnt in a highly polluting manner in
the open fields. We developed an oven and retort type of kiln for charring
this biomass. The unit is very small. All the operations are manual,
ideally requiring a team of three perons to conduct them. By working
from sunrise to sunset, they would be able to produce about 100 kg char, which
can be turned into char briquettes by using an extruder. In a period of 25
weeks, during which sugarcane is harvested, a family can make about 15 tonnes of
briquettes, which would earn them an income of about Rs. 75,000, which is
comparable to that of a white collar worker in a city. The briquettes
would be used by the urban poor. The Government of India had so far
deliberately made cheap and highly subsidised kerosene available to city
dwellers in order to wean them away from wood and charcoal. But this
subsidy has now been withdrawn, so that kerosene that was available for Rs. 4
per litre costs nowadays Rs. 12 per litre. We have developed a stove and
cooker system, which is so fuel efficient, that just 100 g briquettes are
sufficient to cook rice, vegetables and beans for a family of 5. Considering all
the cooking that the family does, it is estimated that it would require about
400 to 500 g of fuel briquettes per day. Our present survey shows that the
family currently uses about a litre of kerosene every day. The cost of the
briquettes would be about Rs. 7 per kg. It was a project that satisfied
all the conditions of the Ashden Award, and in which all the technological
problems had been solved, all numerical data about the availability of the
biomass, output of briquettes, its economic impact on the rural economy and its
benefit to the rural poor were quantifiable.
This work was initiated by my daughter, Dr. Priyadarshini
Karve, in 1997 under a research grant from the Ministry of Science and
Technology, Government of India. Her origin kiln contained only one retort,
and it was made of mild steel. After her project period of two years
was over, other workers in the Institute carried on the work to develop it into
a commercially viable unit containing 7 retorts made of stainless steel. The
prize money would now be used to set up 10 demonstration-cum-training units in
10 sugarcane growing districts of Maharashtra State. In addition, we shall make
dies to mass produce the cooker-and-stove assembly, and appoint extension
workers, who would give demonstration of the cooking device in the poorer
quarters of large cities.
A.D.Karve

From dstill at epud.net Wed Mar 20 06:46:40 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: BENE FACIENDO BONUM EFFICERE
Message-ID: <002d01c1d09c$8f386d40$ea1d66ce@default>

Dear Tom,

I envy your world view. Mine runs more along the lines of "PERDAT ILLE QUI
TANGAT". In my scandalized view all too often doing well uses up resources,
creates long lasting poisons, oppresses the poor. I hope that your scheme is
correct. Walking through the world frequently leaves me with a different,
much less appetizing expression:

"He ruins what he touches"

Best,

Dean

Tom wrote:

The phrase, doing well by doing good, seems to me to embody the essence of
the capitalist system. It
is difficult in our society to "do well" without (often accidentally) doing
some good. (Exceptions are drug dealers, ... fill in your favorite blanks).

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From fred.p at wam.co.za Tue Mar 26 21:31:38 2002
From: fred.p at wam.co.za (fred)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: test
Message-ID: <002201c1d561$45e71280$e08eef9b@fpohl>

Of all the energy on the planet, sun powered is my choice
of gadget.
Test.

From dstill at epud.net Sat Mar 30 13:40:22 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: Happy Easter!
Message-ID: <001401c1d810$b34c8f60$181d66ce@default>

Dear Friends,

Just a update on the ETHOS stove activity of late. And wishing joyous
spiritual resurrection to all! Spring fills Aprovecho with clouds of plum
blossoms, a gentle pink, the sun begins to feel warm, winds are welcome
again and remind me of the grace I've felt sailing. One of the beautiful
things about having a boat at anchor is that experience ashore benefits from
a finite time limit. Reflecting on death and resurrection shares, perhaps,
something of the same heightened awareness.

Two ex-interns are set to build the cement block base of Larry's food dryer
this next Saturday. It will be ready to dry the hundreds of pounds of plums,
apples, pears that we grow. I hope to involve the Spring interns in tweaking
it for best efficiency. We'll have a report ready in a couple of months.

Peter will be going to South Africa to introduce the two pot griddle stove
with chimney Rocket stove in June. We are all working with him to create a
prototype that demonstrates three kinds of combustion chambers (homemade
fire brick, heavy steel, cast iron) while at the same time allowing three
kinds of pot placement (submerged, partially submerged, on top of rings in
the griddle). We hope that this demonstration stove will allow users to see
very directly the effects of choices made in material and design. Changing
the arrangements changes efficiency from about 15% to about 40%.

Peter and Larry are working on a manual for the simple Rocket stove made in
Chiapas, Mexico. I'm planning to publish this manual on the Aprovecho and
ETHOS sites.

Ken is helping to create the beautiful homemade fire bricks that surround
the submerged pots in the South African prototype. Cast in molds they create
the perfect 1/4" gap around the pots.

Lanny Hanson is ready to begin the process of building the improved Rocket
Wok stove. So far, students and staff have eight suggested improvements.
Number one is likeable, we hope that number two will benefit from the
critique that comes from use.

University of Dayton (Dr. Margie Pinnell and students) are hard at work
analyzing hundreds of sample bricks that Ken has made. We hope to deepen our
understanding of homemade fire brick. The goal is a durable brick that is
very insulative, floats on water.

Dr. Ananda Cousins and students are studying the Haybox. I can't wait to
hear their report at the next ETHOS meeting.

ETC, Etc.

Best Wishes Everyone!

"Hay Mas Tiempo Que Vida"
(Time is longer than Life)

Dean

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From thomas.stubbing at heat-win.co.uk Sun Mar 31 20:19:02 2002
From: thomas.stubbing at heat-win.co.uk (Thomas Stubbing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:37:44 2004
Subject: REPP/CREST Proposals for Improving the Lists and Web Functions
In-Reply-To: <006a01c1d912$ad501570$0501a8c0@tomslaptop>
Message-ID: <3CA7FB5F.15473637@heat-win.co.uk>

Dear Tom,
Not being an IT expert I cannot be of much help in this laudable effort,
but a weekly biomass news summary, see the extract below, would be useful
to me.
BIOMASS NEWS

In keeping with the needs of the biomass community to know
about new policies and data, REPP could provide a daily or weekly news
summary to the biomass community via e-mail or on REPP’s discussion list
homepage.
Regards,
Thomas J Stubbing
Tom Miles wrote:

Members
of the Bioenergy Discussion Lists,

Please
comment on the following proposals by REPP/CREST for improvements to the
lists and REPP/CREST website. Reply to one of the lists you are subscribed
to. Please do not post replies to more than one list.

Your
replies will help REPP/CREST develop a plan and budget for improving communications.

Thanks

Tom
Miles

Bioenergy
lists Administrator

Proposal
for Technology Improvements for the Biomass Renewable Energy Community<?xml:namespace
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By
Damian Kostiuk & George Sterzinger, Renewable Energy Policy Project

REPP,
in guidance from Tom Miles, has developed a list of functions and products
to offer the biomass community.The
genesis for this proposal is a simple case of listening to one's customers
- these are things the biomass community has said they need and are growing
impatient for.

Every
facet has one central relationship of being an online service needed for
the continued vibrant and comprehensive dialogue currently taking place
on the biomass discussion lists hosted by REPP.

At
present none of the functions or services are held in one place or do not
exist at all.The result is a fractured
service structure where important pieces of single ideas are not efficiently
discussed because of technical barriers to the free flow of information.For
example, if members of the biomass community wanted to share a document
for peer review, attachments to automated e-mail list systems can very
easily corrupt files, and it places a burden on users who have slow e-mail
connections throughout the world (particularly American researchers abroad
in Africa).A unified library would
allow users to access the information when they want or when they can.

REPP
will develop, implement, and manage the following functions and products:

FUNCTIONS

ONLINE
LIBRARY

Goal:Searchable
archive of files, such as MS Word and Adobe Acrobat documents, that discussion
members can upload and download.

Quite
often in the discussion groups, members seek peer review of materials,
and need a place to make them available.Additionally,
many American researchers write from obscure African locations asking for
technical information or want to post findings for other members.

Present
Status: If members want to share files they must attach files to e-mails.The
problems are many: file sizes get to big for those members with slow internet
connections, some files are automatically deleted because the management
software views them as viruses, and finding files in the discussion list
archive becomes laborious if not impossible for recurring use.

ONLINE
COMMENT & REPLY MECHANISM

Goal:An
interface for discussion list archive users to reply to or initiate messages
via their web browser.

While
searching the list archive users have written us asking to be able to reply
or start a new discussion.The path
of least resistance would be a browser based utility, allowing a user to
instantly engage with the content without a five-minute, ten-minute, or
day long process.

Present
Status: REPP discussion archive users view an average 350,000 pages
per month.Sometimes people want
to reply to a message that was sent in 1996, but cannot.As
well, people who don’t want to become full-time discussion list members
cannot comment on specific, one-time, questions or statements.

LIVE
DISCUSSION ROOMS WITH MODERATOR

Goal:
Live, online public forum for low-cost meetings with a moderator providing
organization to the discussion.

A
discussion list conversation on any biomass issue would be cumbersome and
slow.Having a live venue would
allow groups to have formal dialogues on specific and pertinent issues.

Participants
could join from international locations to a meeting space where they could
type in comments or speak via their phone.The
moderator would allow for people to be given appropriate amounts of time
per question, and provide equal access for Q&A with impartial judgment.Without
a moderator, the conversation looses coherence with people trying to respond
to single ideas at the same time with no unity.

Present
Status: There is no website that offers the one-stop-shop service.

PRODUCTS

DEVELOPMENT
OF RULES & REGULATIONS

REPP
is positioned to facilitate regulators needs to hear the opinions, analysis,
and data from the archives and live online forum.

In
particular, the live online forum benefits regulators by creating an extremely
low cost method of holding public meetings with top biomass experts from
across the country.

TECHNICAL
DOCUMENT DISSEMINATION

With
the library in place, REPP could efficiently disseminate links to the content
via the discussion lists and registered users.Given
the volume of discussion articles read by REPP on a monthly basis, REPP
could achieve a high degree of saturation.

DISCUSSION
TOPIC CONSOLIDATION REPORT – QUARTERLY

With
the wealth of information already in REPP’s archives, and with future activities,
REPP is in a prime position to edit the Biomass discussion lists into a
quarterly summary of topics, updates, and recent dialogues in the biomass
community.

BIOMASS
NEWS

In
keeping with the needs of the biomass community to know about new policies
and data, REPP could provide a daily or weekly news summary to the biomass
community via e-mail or on REPP’s discussion list homepage.

ONGOING
OPERATIONS

All
of these services require a technical coordinator and online content manager.

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

March 2002 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive