September 2002 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Sep 2 10:31:06 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (ronallarson@qwest.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: FW: UNEP launches new Global Clean Energy Network at Johannesburg World Summit
Message-ID: <63340-22002912182853885@M2W029.mail2web.com>

Stovers:
I attended one meeting today where the followoing UNEP program was
discussed. It is a relatively small program - but could be useful for
anyone living near one of the several research centers. They announced an
intent to have dialogue with NGO groups - and I guess we qualify.

There will be quite a few larger programs to go to. Today I also heard
that the US government has added Indoor Air quality to the list of
activities it will be supporting overseas. Just getting started so no
obvious place to make application

Ron

Original Message:
-----------------
From: James Sniffen sniffenj@un.org
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 12:19:43 -0400
To: 2002summit-l@lists.iisd.ca
Subject: UNEP launches new Global Clean Energy Network at Johannesburg
World Summit

UNEP PRESS RELEASE Putting
Energy into Sustainable Development - UNEP launches new Global Clean
Energy Network at Johannesburg World Summit 30
Years UNEP: Environment for Development: People, Planet,
Prosperity JOHANNESBURG, 1 September 2002 -- The goal of
bringing new and less polluting energy sources to billions of deprived
people around the world came a step closer today as the United Nations
Environment Programme (UNEP) launched a pioneering global network of
"sustainable energy" centres. Speaking at the launch here at the
World Summit on Sustainable Development, Klaus Toepfer, UNEP's Executive
Director, said: "The provision of environmentally sound energy services
are integral to poverty alleviation and sustainable
development." "Over 2 billion people in developing countries do not
have access to reliable forms of energy", Mr. Toepfer said. "Nine out of
ten Africans have no access to electricity", he continued. "Providing clean
energy on a sustainable basis is not only vital for fighting
environmental issues like global warming but for reducing poverty and
misery in Africa and parts of Asia and Latin America." Access to
affordable, modern energy services is increasingly seen as
a prerequisite for sustainable development and poverty alleviation.
Access to energy is a condition for achieving the UN's Millennium
Development Goals including the goal to halve the proportion of people
in poverty by 2015 that is at the heart of the Johannesburg
debate. For one-third of the world's population, dependence on
traditional fuels results in many hours spent each day gathering wood,
animal and crop waste. Moreover, limited access to adequate and
appropriate energy, including electricity means that value-adding
income-generating activities are constrained. The consequences
for the environment of present energy production and consumption
patterns are also significant. For example, in developing countries, the
widespread use of traditional fuels for indoor cooking and heating
results in serious respiratory diseases and loss of life related
to indoor air pollution, as well as a contribution to
deforestation, particularly in arid and semi-arid areas. Air
pollution in developing countries is one of the four most
critical global environmental problems. Such pollution causes an
estimated 2 million excess deaths per year, or 5 percent of the global
burden of disease. At the global level, emissions of greenhouse
gases, which mostly originate from the use of fossil fuels (presently 80
percent of the world's primary energy comes from fossil fuels), will
have to be reduced in order to combat global warming. Solving the
climate change challenge means reducing global dependence on fossil
fuels. The new Global Network on Energy for Sustainable Development
(GNESD), made up initially of 10 centres in 10 developed and developing
countries, will help promote the research, transfer and take-up of green
and cleaner energy technologies to the developing world. It will
achieve this by strengthening collaboration between existing "centres of
excellence" that work on energy, development and environment issues.
And, through these centres, influence sustainable energy
policies, strategies and programmes. "The underlying rationale of
the Network is that it increases the capacity of developing country
research institutions to look at energy for sustainable development
issues", says Mark Radka, head of UNEP's Energy Unit. "Furthermore, it
creates a shared research and information base on policy and technical
guidance, advice and information." "Critically, the Network will
help all partners to develop and apply policies suitable to the needs
and constraints of developing countries, thus supporting the use of
energy as an instrument for poverty alleviation and sustainable
development", he said. Promising advances in energy-related
technology hold a great potential for sustainable development,
particularly regarding renewable energy and energy efficiency. A
number of technology options (energy from wind, "new" biomass,
solar, geothermal sources) have been advanced to a state of technical
reliability, and technological developments continue to reduce costs.
The challenge remains to introduce or scale up the application of
sustainable energy services. Similarly, policy and regulatory challenges
remain if these are to become commercially viable options and able to
compete with conventional and environmentally harmful energy options
that typically benefit from favourable pricing conditions and perverse
policy incentives. "Technological solutions to energy problems are
available today. We now need the political will and action to implement
them", Mr. Toepfer said. "The choices humankind makes on energy in
the next decade will largely determine the history of the 21st century,
and in particular whether we are able to put ourselves securely on the
path to sustainable development," he said. Note to
Journalists The Network was launched today at a press conference with
Mr. Toepfer, Tim Wirth, President of the UN Foundation, and Ministers
from Denmark, France Germany, and the UK in the Sandton Media
Centre. For more information, please contact: Nick Nuttall, UNEP's
Head of Media (in Johannesburg) on mobile: +27 11 (0) 72 533 8239,
email: nick.nuttall@unep.org, or Robert Bisset, UNEP Press Officer (in
Paris) on Tel +33-1-4437-7613, mobile: +33-6-2272-5842, email:
robert.bisset@unep.fr Note to Editors The Global Network on
Energy for Sustainable Development (GNESD) is a partnership, and has
been submitted to the World Summit on Sustainable Development for
recognition as a "Type Two" outcome. UNEP will host a small
secretariat for the Network. A Steering Committee representing the
energy centres as well as the other Network partners will provide
strategic direction. The creation of GNESD is in line with the G8
Renewable Energy Task Force Report (2001) which recommended that its
member countries "expand support for assistance programmes and networks
for capacity building" to help promote the policy shift towards
sustainable energy solutions. Core partners in the Network are
outstanding energy centres in industrialised and developing countries
with proven experience and success in advancing knowledge and policies
on various energy issues. The list of energy centres includes, for
example, the Tata Energy Reseach Institute (TERI) in India, the African
Energy Policy Research Network (Kenya), the Bariloche Foundation
(Argentina), ENDA Tiers Monde (Senegal), and the Energy Research and
Development Centre (EDRC) in South Africa. The energy centres are
joined in the Network by international organisations, Governments,
financial institutions, private sector representatives, foundations and
other parties who share the goal of promoting energy for sustainable
development. The idea of the Network was developed by UNEP in
cooperation with the UN Development Programme (UNDP), the UN Industrial
Development Organization (UNIDO), the UN Department for Economic and Social
Affairs (UN/DESA) and The World Bank, drawing on proposals and inputs from
the energy centres themselves. Initial funding partners are the
Governments of Germany, France, the United Kingdom and Denmark, along
with the UN Foundation. For more information: Mark Radka, Energy
Programme Coordinator, UNEP Paris Tel: +33144371427 Fax:
+33144371474 E-mail: mark.radka@unep.fr,
www.uneptie.org/energy or Mr. Eric Falt, UNEP
Spokesperson\Director, Division of Communications and Public
Information, in Nairobi on tel: (254-2) 623292, email:
Eric.Falt@unep.org, UNEP News Release 2002/60
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For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Mon Sep 2 12:32:51 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Roberto_Escard=F3?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ron=B4s_attach_in_plain_ASCII?=
Message-ID: <00fe01c252c0$43889c20$0100a8c0@pentium>

(Thanks to my daugther Sofia who edit the HMTL coded doc)

UNEP PRESS RELEASE Putting Energy into Sustainable Development - UNEP
launches new Global Clean Energy Network at Johannesburg World Summit Years
UNEP: Environment for Development: People, Planet, Prosperity JOHANNESBURG,
1 September 2002 -- The goal of bringing new and less polluting energy
sources to billions of deprived people around the world came a step closer
today as the United Nations environment Programme (UNEP) launched a
pioneering global network of "sustainable energy" entres. Speaking at the
launch here at the World Summit on Sustainable Development, Klaus Toepfer,
UNEP's Executive Director, said: "The provision of environmentally sound
energy services are integral to poverty alleviation and sustainable
development." Over 2 billion people in developing countries do not have
access to reliable forms of energy", Mr. Toepfer said. "Nine out often
Africans have no access to electricity", he continued. "Providing clean
energy on a sustainable basis is not only vital for fighting environmental
issues like global warming but for reducing poverty and misery in Africa and
parts of Asia and Latin America." Access to affordable, modern energy
services is increasingly seen as prerequisite for sustainable development
and poverty alleviation. Access to energy is a condition for achieving the
UN's Millennium Development Goals including the goal to halve the proportion
of people in poverty by2015 that is at the heart of the Johannesburg debate.
For one-third of the world's population, dependence on traditional fuels
results in many hours spent each day gathering wood, animal and crop waste.
Moreover, limited access to adequate and appropriate energy, including
electricity means that value-adding income-generating activities are
constrained. The consequences for the environment of present energy
production and consumption patterns are also significant. For example, in
developing countries, the widespread use of traditional fuels for indoor
cooking and heating results in serious respiratory diseases and loss of life
related to indoor air pollution, as well as a contribution to deforestation,
particularly in arid and semi-arid areas. Air pollution in developing
countries is one of the four most critical global environmental problems.
Such pollution causes an estimated 2 million excess deaths per year, or 5
percent of the global burden of disease. At the global level, emissions of
greenhouse gases, which mostly originate from the use of fossil fuels
(presently 80percent of the world's primary energy comes from fossil fuels),
will have to be reduced in order to combat global warming. Solving the
climate change challenge means reducing global dependence on fossil fuels.
The new Global Network on Energy for Sustainable Development (GNESD), made
up initially of 10 centres in 10 developed and developing countries, will
help promote the research, transfer and take-up of greensand cleaner energy
technologies to the developing world. It will achieve this by strengthening
collaboration between existing" centres of excellence" that work on energy,
development and environment issues. And, through these centres, influence
sustainable energy policies, strategies and programmes." The underlying
rationale of the Network is that it increases the capacity of developing
country research institutions to look at energy for sustainable development
issues", says Mark Radka, head of UNEP's Energy Unit. "Furthermore, it
creates a shared research and information base on policy and technical
guidance, advice and information." Critically, the Network will help all
partners to develop and apply policies suitable to the needs and constraints
of developing countries, thus supporting the use of energy as an instrument
for poverty alleviation and sustainable development", he said. Promising
advances in energy-related technology hold a great potential for sustainable
development, particularly regarding renewable energy and energy efficiency.
Numbers of technology options (energy from wind, "new" biomass, solar,
geothermal sources) have been advanced to a state of technical reliability,
and technological developments continue to reduce costs. The challenge
remains to introduce or scale up the application of sustainable energy
services. Similarly, policy and regulatory challenges remain if these are to
become commercially viable options and able to compete with conventional and
environmentally harmful energy options that typically benefit from
favourable pricing conditions and perverse policy incentives." Technological
solutions to energy problems are available today. We now need the political
will and action to implement them", Mr. Toepfer said." The choices humankind
makes on energy in the next decade will largely determine the history of the
21st century, and in particular whether we arable to put ourselves securely
on the path to sustainable development," he said. Note to Journalists The
Network was launched today at a press conference with Mr. Toepfer, TimWirth,
President of the UN Foundation, and Ministersfrom Denmark, France Germany,
and the UK in the Sandton MediaCentre.For more information, please contact:
Nick Nuttall, UNEP'sHead of Media (inJohannesburg) on mobile: +27 11 (0) 72
533 8239,email: nick.nuttall@unep.org, or Robert Bisset, UNEP Press Officer
(inParis) onTel +33-1-4437-7613, mobile: +33-6-2272-5842,
email:robert.bisset@unep.frNote to EditorsThe Global Network onEnergy for
Sustainable Development (GNESD) is apartnership, and hasbeen submitted to
the World Summit on Sustainable Development forrecognition as a "Type Two"
outcome.UNEP will host a smallsecretariat for the Network. A Steering
Committee representing the energy centres as well as the other Network
partners will provide strategic direction. The creation of GNESD is in line
with the G8Renewable Energy Task Force Report (2001) which recommended that
its member countries "expand support for assistance programmes and networks
for capacity building" to help promote the policy shift towards sustainable
energy solutions. Core partners in the Network are outstanding energy
centres in industrialised and developing countries with proven experience
and success in advancing knowledge and policies on various energy issues.
The list of energy centres includes, for example, the Tate Energy Research
Institute (TERI) in India, the African Energy Policy Research Network
(Kenya), the Bariloche Foundation (Argentina), ENDA Tiers Monde (Senegal),
and the Energy Research and Development Centre (EDRC) in South Africa. The
energy centres are joined in the Network by international organisations,
Governments, financial institutions, private sector representatives,
foundations and other parties who share the goal of promoting energy for
sustainable development. The idea of the Network was developed by UNEP in
cooperation with the UN Development Programme (UNDP), the UN Industrial
Development Organization (UNIDO), the UN Department for Economic and Social
Affairs (UN/DESA) and The World Bank, drawing on proposals and inputs from t
he energy centres themselves. Initial funding partners are the Governments
of Germany, France, the United Kingdom and Denmark, along with the UN
Foundation. For more information: Mark Radka, Energy Programme Coordinator,
UNEP Paris Tel: +33144371427 Fax:+33144371474E-mail:
mark.radka@unep.fr,www.uneptie.org/energyorMr. Eric Falt, UNEP
Spokesperson\Director, Division of Communications and Public Information, in
Nairobi on tel: (254-2) 623292, email:Eric.Falt@unep.org,UNEP

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Mon Sep 2 13:54:28 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Roberto_Escard=F3?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: A note in AAC
Message-ID: <023c01c252cb$b4d67ef0$0100a8c0@pentium>

Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC)

There was a thread about AAC some weeks
ago: An young engineer workinkg with us contacted last week a local maker (under
a licence from Hebel in Germany) The sales technician was very collaborative and
he quickly discouraged us about using it for combustion chambers: AAC is atacked
by CO2!!!
(Big note in Manuals: carefully protect
any chimney made with AAC bricks with refractory bricks - AAC dose not stand CO2
exposure) Pitty, it sounded as a nice material for combustion
chambers!!
Roberto Escardó

From Harry.Parker at coe.ttu.edu Mon Sep 2 16:10:05 2002
From: Harry.Parker at coe.ttu.edu (Harry W. Parker)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Essay: Wood/Coal/Oil/Gas/RB
In-Reply-To: <000f01c25026$9f2d7150$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <000401c252de$05ef9580$b6e50144@dl.cox.net>

Hello Tom and all,

Thanks for your document regarding effective management of biomass as an
energy source.

I have published a paper that regards the whole of energy utilization last
spring, "The Essentials of Essential Energy Consumption."

I would be pleased to send individuals this paper as a word document. I
would also be pleased for hardcopy or online journals to consider
republishing it.

Sorry I have been too busy to participate in the various "Crest" energy
groups. I note some interesting things are happening.

Harry

Harry W. Parker, Ph.D., P.E.
Professor of Chemical Engineering
& Consulting Engineer
Texas Tech University
Lubbock, TX 79409-3121
806.742.1759 fax 742.3552

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http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon

From rmiranda at entelnet.bo Mon Sep 2 19:05:44 2002
From: rmiranda at entelnet.bo (Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: Aluminum griddles...
In-Reply-To: <001a01c241f6$c001d120$331e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20020902224141.00ab67b0@entelnet.bo>

Just a note to say that the disk we are using is from cast iron, supposely
with a longer life span. We are observing, that some has oxidized faster
than expected. Volunteers from Dayton took some disks back home to
investigate, and the disks were warped as well.

another issue is how to weld cast iron on steel? sometimes they do not
bond well among them.

the use on an internal angle iron frame to reinforce the griddle to avoid
edges warping has proved effective, so far very few complains.

regarding upward warping, still in the factory, we hammer down with one
strong hit from a 2 kg hammer, the center of the warping area, to force
the warp downwards instead, creating a more stable surface for sitting
the pots and it is true that with the 6 inches cast iron under the
griddle, the warping is minimized.

rogerio
proleña

At 11:39 a.m. 30/08/02 -0700, Richard Stanley wrote:
>Just an off the cuff obsevation about the riddle of the griddle:
>A griddle of steel with a slight dish shape to it would allow that
>expansion with less chance of warping because the stress causing the
>expansion can be expressed through a slight deepening of the dish. Thoughts ?
>R Stanley
>
>Tom Reed wrote:
>>Dear Stuart and ALL:
>>
>>Not surprised at the warping of 1/8" steel plates. The problem is that
>>local heat causes expansion before the whole griddle can get hot.
>>
>>you might think that aluminum would not be suitable for a griddle, but lets
>>think about it. Lots of pots and pans in the U.S. are aluminum. It
>>conducts heat about 10-X the rate of steel (20 X stainless), so that it gets
>>hot all over and might not warp in moderte thickness. It is MUCH easier to
>>cast than steel (Melting Point 650 C vs 1450 C).
>>
>>While aluminum is more expensive than steel, there is a lot of low value
>>scrap around the U.S., and maybe elsewhere.
>>
>>Don't use Al for chimney pipe however, as it will definitely melt with a hot
>>fire. The secret to cheap chimneys in the U.S. is thin gauge metal (usually
>>blued or galvanized) with the edges crimped for assembly on site. Can be
>>shipped in nested bundles. One end is crimped so that the 3 foot lengths can
>>be extended to 6, 9, ft etc. Should last indefinitely if made large enough
>>so that the 3-6 kW rocket fire doesn't raise above 600C (less than red heat
>>in the dark). Too small a chimney will get too hot; too large won't draw.
>>
>>Keep testing ...
>>
>>Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>
>>To: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>; "ethos" <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
>>Cc: <cindy@treeswaterpeople.org>; "Richard Fox" <twp@treeswaterpeople.org>
>>Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 5:31 PM
>>Subject: [ethos] Re: Stove Update and Research Needs
>>
>> > Hi Dean et al,
>> >
>> > I agree that we as a group need to do more to expand our stove research
>>and
>> > building efforts. The health effects from indoor and outdoor
>> pollution, as
>> > highlighted in Asia recently, are a dire warning of worse to come unless
>>we as a
>> > group do all that we can now. That includes reaching out to other
>>organizations
>> > who might be able to either fund our work or do stove projects
>> themselves.
>>I met
>> > recently with staff of PROJECT CONCERN in El Salvador who are interested
>>in
>> > collaborating with us to build more stoves in that country. Reaching out
>>and
>> > training other big NGOs like CARE, Catholic Relief Services, and others
>>would
>> > help to build more stoves and help more people. in many cases, NGOs
>>working in
>> > Latin America are still building LORENA type stoves in their projects. We
>>need
>> > to make them aware of the new generation of fuel efficient stoves that
>> are
>> > available. Why waste resources?
>> >
>> > I just wanted to point out a few areas of concern on the Justa and
>>EcoStoves and
>> > to point out areas that need more research, based on my recent trip to
>>visit our
>> > stove projects in Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and El Salvador. The
>>planchas
>> > or griddles that we are building on the Justa stoves and EcoStoves are
>>still a
>> > problem. The 1/8" steel that we are currently using has a tendency to
>>warp. When
>> > the griddles start to warp upwards, we are having our stove builders
>> stand
>>on
>> > the griddle the first time that the stove is being fired up. That
>> helps to
>> > contain the warping. However, that is not a good long-term solution.
>> >
>> > PROLENA in Nicaragua has been building a circular 3/8 - 1/4" thick 5 -6"
>> > diameter metal piece that they have been welding onto the bottom of the
>>griddle.
>> > The flame hits the circular addition attached to the griddle and extends
>>the
>> > life of the griddle. In this case, the stove owner just replaces the
>>circular
>> > piece when it burns out instead of replacing the whole griddle. PROLENA
>>has also
>> > reinforced the griddle with angle iron. In spite of these adaptations,
>>PROLENA
>> > staff are not satisfied with the griddles and are starting to test using
>>cast
>> > iron. Using cast iron for the griddle of course increases the cost and
>> the
>> > weight of the stoves, but would last much longer. As you know, we are
>>trying to
>> > keep the costs of the stoves low, so that more people can afford to buy
>>them.
>> > So, cost is definitely an issue in any of the proposed solutions.
>> >
>> > As Larry has pointed out previously, the 4" diameter chimneys that are
>>made of
>> > galvanized steel also have a limited life span. The longevity of the
>>chimney
>> > depends on how often the women is using her stove and how well she
>> > maintains/cleans her chimney. Dona Justa has been using her stove for 3+
>>years
>> > now, and has the same chimney. However, women who make and sell tortillas
>>will
>> > have to replace their chimneys sooner, due to higher rates of usage. As
>>long as
>> > the chimneys are available locally, women/families can just purchase and
>>replace
>> > their chimneys as needed. In more remote rural areas, buying spare
>> chimney
>>parts
>> > can be difficult. So, the chimneys are another area of where further R
>> & D
>>would
>> > be helpful.
>> >
>> > The last area of concern is the Rocket elbow, the combustion chamber of
>>the
>> > stove. The hand made ceramic elbows have been holding up fairly well so
>>far,
>> > altough PROLENA and AHDESA in Honduras both report some problems with
>>breakage
>> > if the women jam in the firewood too far or too hard. Mostly, the problem
>>has
>> > been that a high quality clay is needed to withstand the heat, so that
>>sources
>> > for the Rocket elbows in each country are limited. The high costs of
>>tranport
>> > and breakage in route are drawbacks. In Honduras, using wood ash for
>>insulation
>> > is working all right, but has maintenance and performance issues, as the
>>level
>> > of the wood ash needs to be maintained or the stoves lose some of their
>>fuel
>> > efficiency. So, improved models of the Rocket elbows would be a welcome
>> > addition. Aprovecho is currrently working on a some experimental models
>>with
>> > refractory cement and other materials. I encourage the effort.
>> >
>> > Stuart Conway
>> > Trees, Water & People
>> >
>> > Dean Still wrote:
>> >
>> > > Dear ETHOS,
>> > >
>> > > Hearing about clouds of bad air in Asia, killing untold thousands of
>>people,
>> > > caused in part by cooking stoves, wood burning in general, reinforces
>>for me
>> > > that we already know that even a simple, inexpensive combustion
>> chamber,
>> > > like the Rocket, can decrease pollution. We need to inform people,
>> find
>> > > easier, more practical ways to build many stoves, create insulative
>>bricks,
>> > > etc.
>> > >
>> > > This report also lends a real sense of urgency to our efforts to learn
>>how
>> > > to burn biomass as cleanly as possible. Only a few people are
>> working on
>> > > this problem! The answer must be practical, easy for governments, aid
>> > > agencies to adapt, easy to teach, and liked by the user.
>> > >
>> > > We are getting closer every year. The Ecostove, the HELPS stove, the
>>Chiapas
>> > > Rocket, the double burner South African Rocket, 2 burner stoves, are
>> all
>> > > great stoves. But hearing that such a serious problem exists in Asia
>> > > certainly reinforces the seriosness of our quest: to invent,
>>disseminate,
>> > > improve stoves.
>> > >
>> > > We are in a position of responsibility and I can't think of anyone in
>>the
>> > > world who is in a better position to help than us.
>> > >
>> > > Kind of scary...
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > >
>> > > Dean
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Rogerio Miranda <rmiranda@entelnet.bo>
>> > > To: stuart@treeswaterpeople.org <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>;
>> > > dstill@epud.net <dstill@epud.net>; ronallarson@qwest.net
>> > > <ronallarson@qwest.net>
>> > > Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:51 PM
>> > > Subject: ecostove on BBC
>> > >
>> > > >Hi Stuart, Ron and Dean: I was surprise tonite when I saw myself on
>> BBC
>> > > >World news (Earth Report). I was expecting some notice from the
>> TVE(the
>> > > >documentary agency), but it seems that they forgot to tell me. Anyway,
>>if
>> > > >you have a chance to see BBC Earth report today, perhaps they will
>>replay
>> > > >the documentary. It is a bout children exposed to hazard
>> > > >environment conditions, and the last part include Ecostove. I will
>> try
>>to
>> > > >get hold of a copy and share with you. Good timing, when every news
>>agency
>> > > >is reporting about the brown cloud over South Asia.
>> > > >
>> > > >Go rocket stove.
>> > > >
>> > > >Rogerio
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>-
>>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>><http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
>>
>>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>> >
>>Stoves List Moderators:
>>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>> >
>>List-Post: <<mailto:stoves@crest.org>mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>>List-Help: <<mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>>List-Unsubscribe:
>><<mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>>List-Subscribe:
>><<mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>> >
>>Sponsor the Stoves List:
>><http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html>http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>>-
>>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>><http://www.bioenergy2002.org>http://www.bioenergy2002.org
>>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>><http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
>>Gasification
>><http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html
>>Carbon
>> >
>>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>> ><http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers
>> .htm>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Mon Sep 2 22:03:05 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: Fwd: Re: A note in AAC
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020903160039.00a93950@localhost>

Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:59:55
+1000
To: Roberto Escardó <robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar>
From: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: A note in AAC
Maybe you should do a test. Did the man tell you what chemical reactions
you could expect?
Peter Verhaart
At 18:56 02/09/02 -0300, you wrote:
Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (AAC)

There was a thread about AAC
some weeks ago: An young engineer workinkg with us contacted last week a
local maker (under a licence from Hebel in Germany) The sales technician
was very collaborative and he quickly discouraged us about using it for
combustion chambers: AAC is atacked by CO2!!!
(Big note in Manuals:
carefully protect any chimney made with AAC bricks with refractory bricks
- AAC dose not stand CO2 exposure) Pitty, it sounded as a nice material
for combustion chambers!!
Roberto Escardó

From tombreed at attbi.com Tue Sep 3 04:48:17 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: Welding Cast Iron
In-Reply-To: <001a01c241f6$c001d120$331e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <010401c25307$f4c28360$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Rogerio and all:

(Let me remind all of you to check the SUBJECT for Emails and change if not
appropriate.)

Rogerio is SO right that it is difficult to weld cast iron. HOWEVER, if you
cut off a small 2 mm cross section to act as a welding rod AND heat the
cast iron to red heat, it can be welded and then cooled slowly.

The founder of the BEF discovered this technique and used it to weld cast
iron heads for diesel engines. Eventually he was the principal source in
the U.S. and died worth $15 Million from this and other causes.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda" <rmiranda@entelnet.bo>
To: <rstanley@legacyfound.org>; "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>
Cc: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>; "Dean Still"
<dstill@epud.net>; "Stoves" <Stoves@crest.org>; <prolena@sdnnic.org.ni>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Aluminum griddles...

another issue is how to weld cast iron on steel? sometimes they do not
bond well among them.

the use on an internal angle iron frame to reinforce the griddle to avoid
edges warping has proved effective, so far very few complains.

rogerio
proleña

At 11:39 a.m. 30/08/02 -0700, Richard Stanley wrote:
>Just an off the cuff obsevation about the riddle of the griddle:
>A griddle of steel with a slight dish shape to it would allow that
>expansion with less chance of warping because the stress causing the
>expansion can be expressed through a slight deepening of the dish.
Thoughts ?
>R Stanley
>
>Tom Reed wrote:
>>Dear Stuart and ALL:
>>
>>Not surprised at the warping of 1/8" steel plates. The problem is that
>>local heat causes expansion before the whole griddle can get hot.
>>
>>you might think that aluminum would not be suitable for a griddle, but
lets
>>think about it. Lots of pots and pans in the U.S. are aluminum. It
>>conducts heat about 10-X the rate of steel (20 X stainless), so that it
gets
>>hot all over and might not warp in moderte thickness. It is MUCH easier
to
>>cast than steel (Melting Point 650 C vs 1450 C).
>>
>>While aluminum is more expensive than steel, there is a lot of low value
>>scrap around the U.S., and maybe elsewhere.
>>
>>Don't use Al for chimney pipe however, as it will definitely melt with a
hot
>>fire. The secret to cheap chimneys in the U.S. is thin gauge metal
(usually
>>blued or galvanized) with the edges crimped for assembly on site. Can be
>>shipped in nested bundles. One end is crimped so that the 3 foot lengths
can
>>be extended to 6, 9, ft etc. Should last indefinitely if made large
enough
>>so that the 3-6 kW rocket fire doesn't raise above 600C (less than red
heat
>>in the dark). Too small a chimney will get too hot; too large won't draw.
>>
>>Keep testing ...
>>
>>Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>
>>To: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>; "ethos" <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
>>Cc: <cindy@treeswaterpeople.org>; "Richard Fox" <twp@treeswaterpeople.org>
>>Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 5:31 PM
>>Subject: [ethos] Re: Stove Update and Research Needs
>>
>> > Hi Dean et al,
>> >
>> > I agree that we as a group need to do more to expand our stove research
>>and
>> > building efforts. The health effects from indoor and outdoor
>> pollution, as
>> > highlighted in Asia recently, are a dire warning of worse to come
unless
>>we as a
>> > group do all that we can now. That includes reaching out to other
>>organizations
>> > who might be able to either fund our work or do stove projects
>> themselves.
>>I met
>> > recently with staff of PROJECT CONCERN in El Salvador who are
interested
>>in
>> > collaborating with us to build more stoves in that country. Reaching
out
>>and
>> > training other big NGOs like CARE, Catholic Relief Services, and others
>>would
>> > help to build more stoves and help more people. in many cases, NGOs
>>working in
>> > Latin America are still building LORENA type stoves in their projects.
We
>>need
>> > to make them aware of the new generation of fuel efficient stoves that
>> are
>> > available. Why waste resources?
>> >
>> > I just wanted to point out a few areas of concern on the Justa and
>>EcoStoves and
>> > to point out areas that need more research, based on my recent trip to
>>visit our
>> > stove projects in Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and El Salvador. The
>>planchas
>> > or griddles that we are building on the Justa stoves and EcoStoves are
>>still a
>> > problem. The 1/8" steel that we are currently using has a tendency to
>>warp. When
>> > the griddles start to warp upwards, we are having our stove builders
>> stand
>>on
>> > the griddle the first time that the stove is being fired up. That
>> helps to
>> > contain the warping. However, that is not a good long-term solution.
>> >
>> > PROLENA in Nicaragua has been building a circular 3/8 - 1/4" thick
5 -6"
>> > diameter metal piece that they have been welding onto the bottom of the
>>griddle.
>> > The flame hits the circular addition attached to the griddle and
extends
>>the
>> > life of the griddle. In this case, the stove owner just replaces the
>>circular
>> > piece when it burns out instead of replacing the whole griddle. PROLENA
>>has also
>> > reinforced the griddle with angle iron. In spite of these adaptations,
>>PROLENA
>> > staff are not satisfied with the griddles and are starting to test
using
>>cast
>> > iron. Using cast iron for the griddle of course increases the cost and
>> the
>> > weight of the stoves, but would last much longer. As you know, we are
>>trying to
>> > keep the costs of the stoves low, so that more people can afford to buy
>>them.
>> > So, cost is definitely an issue in any of the proposed solutions.
>> >
>> > As Larry has pointed out previously, the 4" diameter chimneys that are
>>made of
>> > galvanized steel also have a limited life span. The longevity of the
>>chimney
>> > depends on how often the women is using her stove and how well she
>> > maintains/cleans her chimney. Dona Justa has been using her stove for
3+
>>years
>> > now, and has the same chimney. However, women who make and sell
tortillas
>>will
>> > have to replace their chimneys sooner, due to higher rates of usage. As
>>long as
>> > the chimneys are available locally, women/families can just purchase
and
>>replace
>> > their chimneys as needed. In more remote rural areas, buying spare
>> chimney
>>parts
>> > can be difficult. So, the chimneys are another area of where further R
>> & D
>>would
>> > be helpful.
>> >
>> > The last area of concern is the Rocket elbow, the combustion chamber of
>>the
>> > stove. The hand made ceramic elbows have been holding up fairly well so
>>far,
>> > altough PROLENA and AHDESA in Honduras both report some problems with
>>breakage
>> > if the women jam in the firewood too far or too hard. Mostly, the
problem
>>has
>> > been that a high quality clay is needed to withstand the heat, so that
>>sources
>> > for the Rocket elbows in each country are limited. The high costs of
>>tranport
>> > and breakage in route are drawbacks. In Honduras, using wood ash for
>>insulation
>> > is working all right, but has maintenance and performance issues, as
the
>>level
>> > of the wood ash needs to be maintained or the stoves lose some of their
>>fuel
>> > efficiency. So, improved models of the Rocket elbows would be a
welcome
>> > addition. Aprovecho is currrently working on a some experimental models
>>with
>> > refractory cement and other materials. I encourage the effort.
>> >
>> > Stuart Conway
>> > Trees, Water & People
>> >
>> > Dean Still wrote:
>> >
>> > > Dear ETHOS,
>> > >
>> > > Hearing about clouds of bad air in Asia, killing untold thousands of
>>people,
>> > > caused in part by cooking stoves, wood burning in general, reinforces
>>for me
>> > > that we already know that even a simple, inexpensive combustion
>> chamber,
>> > > like the Rocket, can decrease pollution. We need to inform people,
>> find
>> > > easier, more practical ways to build many stoves, create insulative
>>bricks,
>> > > etc.
>> > >
>> > > This report also lends a real sense of urgency to our efforts to
learn
>>how
>> > > to burn biomass as cleanly as possible. Only a few people are
>> working on
>> > > this problem! The answer must be practical, easy for governments, aid
>> > > agencies to adapt, easy to teach, and liked by the user.
>> > >
>> > > We are getting closer every year. The Ecostove, the HELPS stove, the
>>Chiapas
>> > > Rocket, the double burner South African Rocket, 2 burner stoves, are
>> all
>> > > great stoves. But hearing that such a serious problem exists in Asia
>> > > certainly reinforces the seriosness of our quest: to invent,
>>disseminate,
>> > > improve stoves.
>> > >
>> > > We are in a position of responsibility and I can't think of anyone
in
>>the
>> > > world who is in a better position to help than us.
>> > >
>> > > Kind of scary...
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > >
>> > > Dean
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Rogerio Miranda <rmiranda@entelnet.bo>
>> > > To: stuart@treeswaterpeople.org <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>;
>> > > dstill@epud.net <dstill@epud.net>; ronallarson@qwest.net
>> > > <ronallarson@qwest.net>
>> > > Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:51 PM
>> > > Subject: ecostove on BBC
>> > >
>> > > >Hi Stuart, Ron and Dean: I was surprise tonite when I saw myself on
>> BBC
>> > > >World news (Earth Report). I was expecting some notice from the
>> TVE(the
>> > > >documentary agency), but it seems that they forgot to tell me.
Anyway,
>>if
>> > > >you have a chance to see BBC Earth report today, perhaps they will
>>replay
>> > > >the documentary. It is a bout children exposed to hazard
>> > > >environment conditions, and the last part include Ecostove. I will
>> try
>>to
>> > > >get hold of a copy and share with you. Good timing, when every news
>>agency
>> > > >is reporting about the brown cloud over South Asia.
>> > > >
>> > > >Go rocket stove.
>> > > >
>> > > >Rogerio
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>-
>>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>><http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/>http://www.crest.org/discu
ssion/stoves/200204/
>>
>>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>> >
>>Stoves List Moderators:
>>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>> >
>>List-Post: <<mailto:stoves@crest.org>mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>>List-Help: <<mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>>List-Unsubscribe:
>><<mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>>List-Subscribe:
>><<mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>> >
>>Sponsor the Stoves List:
>><http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html>http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
>>-
>>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>><http://www.bioenergy2002.org>http://www.bioenergy2002.org
>>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>><http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html>http://www.crest
.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
>>Gasification
>><http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html>http://www.crest
.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html
>>Carbon
>> >
>>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>> ><http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers
>>
.htm>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers
.htm

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Tue Sep 3 19:09:30 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: Welding Cast Iron
In-Reply-To: <001a01c241f6$c001d120$331e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <3D7578BE.83945BD5@ca.inter.net>

Dear Tom

Here is a neat site, for information on welding cast
iron....
http://www.locknstitch.com/CriticalTemperature.htm

BTW... is Gary Reed any relation to you?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

Tom Reed wrote:
>
> Dear Rogerio and all:
>
> (Let me remind all of you to check the SUBJECT for Emails and change if not
> appropriate.)
>
> Rogerio is SO right that it is difficult to weld cast iron. HOWEVER, if you
> cut off a small 2 mm cross section to act as a welding rod AND heat the
> cast iron to red heat, it can be welded and then cooled slowly.
>
> The founder of the BEF discovered this technique and used it to weld cast
> iron heads for diesel engines. Eventually he was the principal source in
> the U.S. and died worth $15 Million from this and other causes.
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda" <rmiranda@entelnet.bo>
> To: <rstanley@legacyfound.org>; "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>
> Cc: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>; "Dean Still"
> <dstill@epud.net>; "Stoves" <Stoves@crest.org>; <prolena@sdnnic.org.ni>
> Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 8:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Aluminum griddles...
>
> Just a note to say that the disk we are using is from cast iron, supposely
> with a longer life span. We are observing, that some has oxidized faster
> than expected. Volunteers from Dayton took some disks back home to
> investigate, and the disks were warped as well.
>
> another issue is how to weld cast iron on steel? sometimes they do not
> bond well among them.
>
> the use on an internal angle iron frame to reinforce the griddle to avoid
> edges warping has proved effective, so far very few complains.
>
> regarding upward warping, still in the factory, we hammer down with one
> strong hit from a 2 kg hammer, the center of the warping area, to force
> the warp downwards instead, creating a more stable surface for sitting
> the pots and it is true that with the 6 inches cast iron under the
> griddle, the warping is minimized.
>
> rogerio
> proleña
>
> At 11:39 a.m. 30/08/02 -0700, Richard Stanley wrote:
> >Just an off the cuff obsevation about the riddle of the griddle:
> >A griddle of steel with a slight dish shape to it would allow that
> >expansion with less chance of warping because the stress causing the
> >expansion can be expressed through a slight deepening of the dish.
> Thoughts ?
> >R Stanley
> >
> >Tom Reed wrote:
> >>Dear Stuart and ALL:
> >>
> >>Not surprised at the warping of 1/8" steel plates. The problem is that
> >>local heat causes expansion before the whole griddle can get hot.
> >>
> >>you might think that aluminum would not be suitable for a griddle, but
> lets
> >>think about it. Lots of pots and pans in the U.S. are aluminum. It
> >>conducts heat about 10-X the rate of steel (20 X stainless), so that it
> gets
> >>hot all over and might not warp in moderte thickness. It is MUCH easier
> to
> >>cast than steel (Melting Point 650 C vs 1450 C).
> >>
> >>While aluminum is more expensive than steel, there is a lot of low value
> >>scrap around the U.S., and maybe elsewhere.
> >>
> >>Don't use Al for chimney pipe however, as it will definitely melt with a
> hot
> >>fire. The secret to cheap chimneys in the U.S. is thin gauge metal
> (usually
> >>blued or galvanized) with the edges crimped for assembly on site. Can be
> >>shipped in nested bundles. One end is crimped so that the 3 foot lengths
> can
> >>be extended to 6, 9, ft etc. Should last indefinitely if made large
> enough
> >>so that the 3-6 kW rocket fire doesn't raise above 600C (less than red
> heat
> >>in the dark). Too small a chimney will get too hot; too large won't draw.
> >>
> >>Keep testing ...
> >>
> >>Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Stuart Conway" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>
> >>To: "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>; "ethos" <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
> >>Cc: <cindy@treeswaterpeople.org>; "Richard Fox" <twp@treeswaterpeople.org>
> >>Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 5:31 PM
> >>Subject: [ethos] Re: Stove Update and Research Needs
> >>
> >> > Hi Dean et al,
> >> >
> >> > I agree that we as a group need to do more to expand our stove research
> >>and
> >> > building efforts. The health effects from indoor and outdoor
> >> pollution, as
> >> > highlighted in Asia recently, are a dire warning of worse to come
> unless
> >>we as a
> >> > group do all that we can now. That includes reaching out to other
> >>organizations
> >> > who might be able to either fund our work or do stove projects
> >> themselves.
> >>I met
> >> > recently with staff of PROJECT CONCERN in El Salvador who are
> interested
> >>in
> >> > collaborating with us to build more stoves in that country. Reaching
> out
> >>and
> >> > training other big NGOs like CARE, Catholic Relief Services, and others
> >>would
> >> > help to build more stoves and help more people. in many cases, NGOs
> >>working in
> >> > Latin America are still building LORENA type stoves in their projects.
> We
> >>need
> >> > to make them aware of the new generation of fuel efficient stoves that
> >> are
> >> > available. Why waste resources?
> >> >
> >> > I just wanted to point out a few areas of concern on the Justa and
> >>EcoStoves and
> >> > to point out areas that need more research, based on my recent trip to
> >>visit our
> >> > stove projects in Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and El Salvador. The
> >>planchas
> >> > or griddles that we are building on the Justa stoves and EcoStoves are
> >>still a
> >> > problem. The 1/8" steel that we are currently using has a tendency to
> >>warp. When
> >> > the griddles start to warp upwards, we are having our stove builders
> >> stand
> >>on
> >> > the griddle the first time that the stove is being fired up. That
> >> helps to
> >> > contain the warping. However, that is not a good long-term solution.
> >> >
> >> > PROLENA in Nicaragua has been building a circular 3/8 - 1/4" thick
> 5 -6"
> >> > diameter metal piece that they have been welding onto the bottom of the
> >>griddle.
> >> > The flame hits the circular addition attached to the griddle and
> extends
> >>the
> >> > life of the griddle. In this case, the stove owner just replaces the
> >>circular
> >> > piece when it burns out instead of replacing the whole griddle. PROLENA
> >>has also
> >> > reinforced the griddle with angle iron. In spite of these adaptations,
> >>PROLENA
> >> > staff are not satisfied with the griddles and are starting to test
> using
> >>cast
> >> > iron. Using cast iron for the griddle of course increases the cost and
> >> the
> >> > weight of the stoves, but would last much longer. As you know, we are
> >>trying to
> >> > keep the costs of the stoves low, so that more people can afford to buy
> >>them.
> >> > So, cost is definitely an issue in any of the proposed solutions.
> >> >
> >> > As Larry has pointed out previously, the 4" diameter chimneys that are
> >>made of
> >> > galvanized steel also have a limited life span. The longevity of the
> >>chimney
> >> > depends on how often the women is using her stove and how well she
> >> > maintains/cleans her chimney. Dona Justa has been using her stove for
> 3+
> >>years
> >> > now, and has the same chimney. However, women who make and sell
> tortillas
> >>will
> >> > have to replace their chimneys sooner, due to higher rates of usage. As
> >>long as
> >> > the chimneys are available locally, women/families can just purchase
> and
> >>replace
> >> > their chimneys as needed. In more remote rural areas, buying spare
> >> chimney
> >>parts
> >> > can be difficult. So, the chimneys are another area of where further R
> >> & D
> >>would
> >> > be helpful.
> >> >
> >> > The last area of concern is the Rocket elbow, the combustion chamber of
> >>the
> >> > stove. The hand made ceramic elbows have been holding up fairly well so
> >>far,
> >> > altough PROLENA and AHDESA in Honduras both report some problems with
> >>breakage
> >> > if the women jam in the firewood too far or too hard. Mostly, the
> problem
> >>has
> >> > been that a high quality clay is needed to withstand the heat, so that
> >>sources
> >> > for the Rocket elbows in each country are limited. The high costs of
> >>tranport
> >> > and breakage in route are drawbacks. In Honduras, using wood ash for
> >>insulation
> >> > is working all right, but has maintenance and performance issues, as
> the
> >>level
> >> > of the wood ash needs to be maintained or the stoves lose some of their
> >>fuel
> >> > efficiency. So, improved models of the Rocket elbows would be a
> welcome
> >> > addition. Aprovecho is currrently working on a some experimental models
> >>with
> >> > refractory cement and other materials. I encourage the effort.
> >> >
> >> > Stuart Conway
> >> > Trees, Water & People
> >> >
> >> > Dean Still wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Dear ETHOS,
> >> > >
> >> > > Hearing about clouds of bad air in Asia, killing untold thousands of
> >>people,
> >> > > caused in part by cooking stoves, wood burning in general, reinforces
> >>for me
> >> > > that we already know that even a simple, inexpensive combustion
> >> chamber,
> >> > > like the Rocket, can decrease pollution. We need to inform people,
> >> find
> >> > > easier, more practical ways to build many stoves, create insulative
> >>bricks,
> >> > > etc.
> >> > >
> >> > > This report also lends a real sense of urgency to our efforts to
> learn
> >>how
> >> > > to burn biomass as cleanly as possible. Only a few people are
> >> working on
> >> > > this problem! The answer must be practical, easy for governments, aid
> >> > > agencies to adapt, easy to teach, and liked by the user.
> >> > >
> >> > > We are getting closer every year. The Ecostove, the HELPS stove, the
> >>Chiapas
> >> > > Rocket, the double burner South African Rocket, 2 burner stoves, are
> >> all
> >> > > great stoves. But hearing that such a serious problem exists in Asia
> >> > > certainly reinforces the seriosness of our quest: to invent,
> >>disseminate,
> >> > > improve stoves.
> >> > >
> >> > > We are in a position of responsibility and I can't think of anyone
> in
> >>the
> >> > > world who is in a better position to help than us.
> >> > >
> >> > > Kind of scary...
> >> > >
> >> > > Best,
> >> > >
> >> > > Dean
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: Rogerio Miranda <rmiranda@entelnet.bo>
> >> > > To: stuart@treeswaterpeople.org <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>;
> >> > > dstill@epud.net <dstill@epud.net>; ronallarson@qwest.net
> >> > > <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> >> > > Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:51 PM
> >> > > Subject: ecostove on BBC
> >> > >
> >> > > >Hi Stuart, Ron and Dean: I was surprise tonite when I saw myself on
> >> BBC
> >> > > >World news (Earth Report). I was expecting some notice from the
> >> TVE(the
> >> > > >documentary agency), but it seems that they forgot to tell me.
> Anyway,
> >>if
> >> > > >you have a chance to see BBC Earth report today, perhaps they will
> >>replay
> >> > > >the documentary. It is a bout children exposed to hazard
> >> > > >environment conditions, and the last part include Ecostove. I will
> >> try
> >>to
> >> > > >get hold of a copy and share with you. Good timing, when every news
> >>agency
> >> > > >is reporting about the brown cloud over South Asia.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >Go rocket stove.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >Rogerio
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>-
> >>Stoves List Archives and Website:
> >><http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/>http://www.crest.org/discu
> ssion/stoves/200204/
> >>
> >>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >> >
> >>Stoves List Moderators:
> >>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> >>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >> >
> >>List-Post: <<mailto:stoves@crest.org>mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> >>List-Help: <<mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> >>List-Unsubscribe:
> >><<mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> >>List-Subscribe:
> >><<mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >> >
> >>Sponsor the Stoves List:
> >><http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html>http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> >>-
> >>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> >><http://www.bioenergy2002.org>http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> >>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> >><http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html>http://www.crest
> .org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
> >>Gasification
> >><http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html>http://www.crest
> .org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html
> >>Carbon
> >> >
> >>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >> ><http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers
> >>
> .htm>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers
> .htm
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Sep 4 08:22:29 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (ronallarson@qwest.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: Meeting with Crispin
Message-ID: <410-22002934161914170@M2W096.mail2web.com>

Stovers:

I just left Crispin after a demonstration of his (Crispin? stove. It is
the best I have seen for sale ($26 now - likely to go lower). Features I
like:

1. Preheating both primary and secondary air. (multiple layers of metal)

2. Good thick steel for main combustion zone.

3. An upper outer baffle for getting higher efficiency for the convective
transfer to the pot.

4. Controllable primary air (and power out) (says he has a more expensive
design with independent control for the secondary air - but I didn't see or
have a chance to discuss).

5. Built around use of a commercial pail he can buy cheaply from local
manufacturer.

6. Looked very clean burning after short time in startup. I don't think
the design has been anayltically teested, but I'm betting it will be good.

7. The stove went, after a high output pyrolyzing period, into a charcoal
burning mode. It was a surprise to me that he had such good charcoal at
that time. I haven't yet convinced him that this is worth saving - but we
talked about the fact that invasive species are being cut without any use.

Ron

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Sep 5 02:53:26 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: Meeting with Crispin
Message-ID: <ae.2c9f6dd8.2aa8910f@aol.com>

> Dan's comments

Stovers:

I just left Crispin after a demonstration of his (Crispin? stove. It is
the best I have seen for sale ($26 now - likely to go lower). Features I
like:

>First, can we stovers see some pictures of this beautiful devise to enhance our imaginations? Ron, maybe you can bring some pictures home to post?

1. Preheating both primary and secondary air. (multiple layers of metal)

2. Good thick steel for main combustion zone.

> This looks like a good application for thin rolled iron someday in the future. Crispin, you stated your wonderful method for making case hardened steel recently. You can take that process one step farther, by saturating the steel more fully with carbon over a longer time period, possibly at a higher temp. You may create a longer lasting crude form of high carbon steel. Make sure you hot oil coat it deep at the end by quenching.
>The only thing it would lack, would be the high silicon content, and possibly not as much carbon, to match wrought iron. This process, by the way, is similar to how the famous true "crucible steel" was made for centurys.
> Someday, when you have nothing but time on your hands ;-) you can make crude wrought iron. Do this by beating plastic-like white hot steel together, with putty like silicon glass of the same temperature. You kneed it (hammer it) together again and again like bread dough to an even consistancy. Now do we all appriciate why true hand made wrought iron is not found anymore? Old ironworkers must have had muscles stronger than iron.

3. An upper outer baffle for getting higher efficiency for the convective
transfer to the pot.

4. Controllable primary air (and power out) (says he has a more expensive
design with independent control for the secondary air - but I didn't see or
have a chance to discuss).

5. Built around use of a commercial pail he can buy cheaply from local
manufacturer.

> I am concerned that this pail might be galvanized. If so, burn off the zinc coating in a well ventilated area, and re- coat with a black hot oil treatment. In the future with higher rates of production, fabricate a bucket with clean uncoated steel.

6. Looked very clean burning after short time in startup. I don't think
the design has been anayltically teested, but I'm betting it will be good.

> Can Paul Anderson's, or another version of the removable charcoal holding cartridge be used to remove the char and replace with additional wood? I'll bet Crispin can find a good use for the char, forging, preheating, or making his own crucible tool steel in his shop. The formula for various crucible steel grades may be out there in very old blacksmithing/steelmaking books.

Ron

> Have fun guys, I wish I was there to help. Hope it rains again soon.
Your friend,
Dan Dimiduk.

From tombreed at attbi.com Thu Sep 5 10:03:03 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: Meeting with Crispin
In-Reply-To: <ae.2c9f6dd8.2aa8910f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005501c254c6$4222a620$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear All:

I'd love to see Crispin's stove.

However

1) I don't think air preheat is necessary or
even desirable as it doesn't mix as well with hot gases as dense cold air and

2) The good thick steel for combustion zone
soaks up heat before it can deliver it. I have been amazed that tin cans
(tincanium)seem to last forever, are widely available and easy to
machine.

TOM REED
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A title=Carefreeland@aol.com
href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com">Carefreeland@aol.com
To: <A title=ronallarson@qwest.net
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net">ronallarson@qwest.net ; <A
title=crispin@newdawn.sz
href="mailto:crispin@newdawn.sz">crispin@newdawn.sz ; <A
title=stoves@crest.org href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org

Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 4:50
AM
Subject: Re: Meeting with Crispin
In a message dated
9/4/02 12:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <A
href="mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net">ronallarson@qwest.net
writes:> Dan's comments

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE">Stovers:I just left Crispin after a demonstration of his
(Crispin? stove. It isthe best I have seen for sale ($26 now -
likely to go lower). Features Ilike:>First, can we stovers see some
pictures of this beautiful devise to enhance our imaginations? Ron,
maybe you can bring some pictures home to post? 
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE">1. Preheating both primary and secondary air. (multiple
layers of metal)2. Good thick steel for main combustion
zone.> This looks like a good application for thin rolled
iron someday in the future. Crispin, you stated your wonderful method for
making case hardened steel recently. You can take that process one step
farther, by saturating the steel more fully with carbon over a longer time
period, possibly at a higher temp. You may create a longer lasting crude form
of high carbon steel. Make sure you hot oil coat it deep at the end by
quenching. >The only thing it would lack, would be the high silicon
content, and possibly not as much carbon, to match wrought iron. This
process, by the way, is similar to how the famous true "crucible steel" was
made for centurys.> Someday, when you have nothing but time on your
hands ;-) you can make crude wrought iron. Do this by beating
plastic-like white hot steel together, with putty like silicon glass of the
same temperature. You kneed it (hammer it) together again and again like bread
dough to an even consistancy. Now do we all appriciate why true hand
made wrought iron is not found anymore? Old ironworkers must have had
muscles stronger than iron.
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE">3. An upper outer baffle for getting higher efficiency
for the convectivetransfer to the pot.4. Controllable
primary air (and power out) (says he has a more expensivedesign
with independent control for the secondary air - but I didn't see orhave
a chance to discuss).5. Built around use of a commercial pail
he can buy cheaply from localmanufacturer.> I am concerned that this pail might be
galvanized. If so, burn off the zinc coating in a well ventilated area,
and re- coat with a black hot oil treatment. In the future with higher
rates of production, fabricate a bucket with clean uncoated steel.

<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
TYPE="CITE">6. Looked very clean burning after short time in
startup. I don't thinkthe design has been anayltically teested,
but I'm betting it will be good.7. The stove went, after a
high output pyrolyzing period, into a charcoalburning mode. It was a
surprise to me that he had such good charcoal atthat time. I
haven't yet convinced him that this is worth saving - but wetalked about
the fact that invasive species are being cut without any use.>
Can Paul Anderson's, or another version of the removable charcoal holding
cartridge be used to remove the char and replace with additional wood?
I'll bet Crispin can find a good use for the char, forging, preheating, or
making his own crucible tool steel in his shop. The formula for various
crucible steel grades may be out there in very old
blacksmithing/steelmaking books.Ron> Have fun
guys, I wish I was there to help. Hope it rains again soon.
Your friend,
Dan Dimiduk.

From ascent at wilnetonline.net Sat Sep 7 02:40:57 2002
From: ascent at wilnetonline.net (ascent@wilnetonline.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827210121.00a74e38@shawmail>
Message-ID: <000001c2565b$7f6a97e0$047aa4ca@wilnetonline.net>

Dear Sir,

I am Ingrid Fernandes, Sr. Manager, Ankur Scientific, India. We are
basically a Biomass Gasification company and have been in the business for a
number of years now, making enough money not only to support ourselves but
also to support further technology development work through our own
resources. Do visit our web site www.ankurscientific.com .

Regards,

Ingrid

----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>
To: Laszlo Paszner <lpaszner@shaw.ca>
Cc: <Carefreeland@aol.com>; <agniesco@hd2.dot.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>;
<gasification@crest.org>; <bioenergy@crest.org>; <LINVENT@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?

> Dear Dr. Paszner
>
> Thank you for your very interesting overview on
> bioenergy.
>
> Laszlo Paszner wrote:
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> ....del...>
> > Biomass is largely "undersold" as an alternate renewable energy source
by
> > the world authorities and the media. It is lucky if it gets honorable
> > mention among the renewable energy sources of wind, solar and tidal.
The
> > authorities are brainwashed by the petrochemical companies. This is so
> > because the technologies for these energy forms are owned by the
> > petrochemical companies, Shell, BP, Texaco, SUNCOR etc. Promotion of
wind,
> > solar and tidal energy forms is safe, they do not cut into the gasoline
> > markets. Wide-scale promotion of wind and solar installations for
> > developing countries channels much needed developmental funds again to
the
> > petrochemical companies (you remember they own these technologies -
bought
> > into them quietly 5-6 years ago) leaving the developing countries
further
> > in debt and dependent without solving their problem (lack of energy in
> > rural areas). These are "passive" energy forms because they will not
> > generate wide-spread sustainable jobs after their installation. As a
> > result, this power form, regardless of its renewable nature, will remain
> > inaccessible to the poor because they are left without a
> > dispasible income. Biomass growing and ethanol production are highly
> > labor intensive (active) job creators. Thus growing biomass (growing
the
> > seedlings, planting, tending and harvesting the forests) requires
> > continuous attention and will maintain a substantial number of permanent
> > rural jobs. For every 50 million L/yr ethanol plant, we generate
between
> > 75 to 150 permanent, well paying rural jobs. Yet, biomass is not
promoted
> > as the true future renewable energy source.
> >
> I would suggest that there is not a conspiracy by
> multi-National Oil Companies to hold back the
> development of biomass. I would suggest that they can
> make more money from oil than they can make from
> biomass, and that is the reason why they process oil.
> It is very dificult to imagine the multi-National Oil
> Companies saying "We can make more money on biomass,
> but we are not going to do that, because we are oil
> processors."
>
> The cruel reality seems to be that it is somewhere
> between difficult and impossible to make money from
> biomass energy.
>
>
> > For the biomass program, fast growing and high yielding crops become
> > important. Comparatively speaking, trees produce 4-8 T/ha . yr biomass
in
> > the temperate regions, better yields (18-30 T/ha . yr) can be obtained
with
> > both deciduous and coniferous wood species in tropical and sub-tropical
> > countries. Similar or better yields can be obtained with
sugarcane/sweet
> > sorghum and mineral giant reed; up to 45 T/ha .yr. Exceptionally, up to
> > 60-75 T/ha .yr can be had with Eucalyptus species. So by selective
biomass
> > cultivation the target biomass supply will become available while
> > simultaneously also solving the world's poverty problems.
>
> With a ratio of about 15:1 in terms of tropical
> eucalyptus to temperate forestry yields, if biomass
> energy even had a chance of being economic, one would
> see at least some biomass energy companies making money
> from eucalyptus energy processing. Are there any "stand
> alone biomass energy successes" anywhere in the world?
> There may be some businesses successes because of
> peculiar circumstances, such as waste product disposal,
> or special incentives. The cruel reality seems to be
> that, simply put, there is no money to be made in
> biomass energy.
>
> Am I mising something here? Is there anyone making
> "stand alone money" in biomass anywhere in the world?
> Is it perhaps a case that biomass energy economics are
> ruled by a Law that says "The bigger you are, the more
> you lose?"
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
> >
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>

-
Gasification List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Sep 8 13:46:11 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: Stoves at the Summit
Message-ID: <014901c2577f$22497de0$74aafea9@home>

Dear All and Sundry

Well, I have been back for a few minutes from the Summit and am wading
through the junk-filled inbox to sort out the wheat which definitely
includes the messages below.

Tom asked:

>I'd love to see Crispin's stove.

Well, go the website www.newdawn-engineering.com to the Products section.
Look under stoves for "Stove burning, boiling and efficiency tests" and then
click on "Basintuthu Stove Tests" to arrive at
<stove\Tests\basitests\basitest1.htm> (that is not the whole URL).

The one in the top picture is exactly what Dr Agnes Klingshurn from GTZ has
taken back to Zimbabwe today for pretty comprehensive testing. It is not
perfect (which David Hancock was quite insistent it should be) but it will
give an indication of what a hand-crafted one will do. Don't be put off by
the fact it has a small 10 litre can under it. There are two versions that
work the same way and one has an ash can under it. The stove has partial
primary air pre-heating. It is a 4 litre pot. The bakelite handles have
been removed and a wire loop put on so it can be lifted easily.

Dr Agnes and Marliss (head of the RSA wood stove program who brought Peter
Scott in) were justifiably sceptical of the stove when they saw and heard
about it. It breaks a lot of 'rules' being taught hither and yon. An hour
of cooking was pretty convincing I guess. At a very low power it is very
efficient though I will wait for them to say what they think it is. The
pre-heating of the air can keep a tiny fire going. I am formulating a plan
to do some comprehensive improvement testing of some hardware
changes/versions to get the primary air firmly under control. That plan
should be ready for scrutiny in 90 days.

Tom adds:
>1) I don't think air preheat is necessary or even desirable as
>it doesn't mix as well with hot gases as dense cold air and

It allows us to burn pretty crummy fuel, and to pyrolize wood to charcoal
with a very small fire. It also obviates the need for insulation or ceramic
pipes and so on. Most 'leaking' heat is re-directed into the fire. At low
power the bottom half of the stove doesn't reach 60 on the outside inspite
of being over 600C in the centre.

>2) The good thick steel for combustion zone soaks up heat before
>it can deliver it. I have been amazed that tin cans (tincanium)seem
>to last forever, are widely available and easy to machine.

Ron's report is slightly misleading. The grate is indeed strong and very
stiff but it is only 1.2mm thick. The material is a titanium stabilized
low-chrome stainless steel called 3CR12 which is made in Middleburg, a town
between Swaziland and Johannesburg. It is very strong but not very
malleable - almost brittle. It is a little less than 1/2 the price of
stainless (304L etc). It is shiny (reflective) with an 'as rolled' finish
called 2B. It discolours with high heat and eventually discolours over time
anyway. It is welded with a rod called 309L which we use in 1.2mm wire form
on a MIG welder using an Argon-CO2 blend with a tiny amount of Oxygen in it.
It will spot-weld.

Ron commented:
>It is the best I have seen for sale ($26 now - likely to go lower).

This is indeed the present price and we will try hard to get it down to $20.

Dan noted:
>This looks like a good application for thin rolled iron someday in the
future.

The temperatures involved will not allow thin unprotected steel to last
long. It will rust through and especially at the welded points where the
chemistry is a little wonky. The parts of the stove that do not get touched
by fire are made from epoxy-coated tin-plated steel. The 25 litre container
(285mm dia at the top) with a rolled top lip, seam welded with a water tight
rolled-seal bottom costs only $2 and I am not going to treat the material at
all. It is impossible to make a can of that size and quality for that price
by any normal means. We will have to live with what is available unless we
want to invest literally millions in tooling.

The "... upper outer baffle for getting higher efficiency for the convective
transfer to the pot. [Ron]" can be made from something better than the 0,6mm
galv sheet I used but that was just because I had some around the shop. It
is very malleable which means making a square lip on a ring is a cinch. One
problem we have seen is that at high power the galvanizing melts and runs
down like wet paint.

Ron sez: > 4. Controllable primary air (and power out)...

The variability of power out is about 1:7 or 1:5 depending on fuel load and
conditions. When turning the power down there is a delay during which the
combustion lower down decreases but gassification continues and the flames
move up and/or it smokes a little. After a time (1-3 minutes) the internal
temps drop and it stabilizes at a lower output. Separately controllable
primary and secondary air would probably fix that. Opening the air vent
increases the power immediately.

Dan sez: > I am concerned that this pail might be galvanized.

I hope to get it galvanized but that is a difficult option. Zinc, when and
if it burns off, I understand, is positively beneficial to people with lung
infections. The olden day treatment for TB was to get a job in a galvanizing
plant. Breathing the zinc fumes would eventually cure or ameliorate the
condition. We have terrible TB problems in this region of the world. The
problem with zinc protection is that it is sacrificial, not real protection.
Cadmium plating is a terrible danger in a stove and must be avoided
completely.

My conclusion : Thin, uncoated steel will not last in this device.

Ron sez: > 6. Looked very clean burning after short time in startup.

In the test he saw it took about 30 seconds to 'go secondary' which is
better than average. The reason was the tiny amount of fuel in it. A
couple of hardwood sticks and two square briquettes (90gms total) boiled 1.5
litres of water and kept it simmering (bubbling) for about 50 minutes. I
found the fuel to be a bit smokey initially though it was certainly hard.
The firebox was a little over filled height-wise (contributing to smoke) but
no one had a saw and it was too strong to break. The second demo on
Saturday(?) used damp newspaper and rained-on wood but apart from taking
longer to get going it was just fine.

>The stove went, after a high output pyrolyzing period, into
>a charcoal burning mode.

When the gassification is finished the air vents are opened up to allow for
a faster charcoal burn to maintain the heat output.

>I haven't yet convinced him that this is worth saving

That's true!

>Can Paul Anderson's, or another version of the removable charcoal
>holding cartridge be used to remove the char and replace with
>additional wood?

The present configuration is such that the grate can be lifted out, the
charcoal removed and some coals swept back inside, more fuel loaded and the
grate replaced. This is done with a long wire hook (5mm nail wire). The
Basintuthu Baking Stove comes with a hook for this purpose. The grate in
the baking stove has a loop over the top for lifting it out. If it is
important I can put one on the single pot stove grate as well. The baking
stove is run for longer at higher power so there is a real chance of the
grate getting plugged up. It is occasionally necessary to remove the grate,
tip it over and remove the unwanted material. It takes about 1 minutes to
do this. Also, it allows one to see that it is well lit before returning it
to the stove. It is removed through the larger pot hole directly over the
grate.

I apologize for the website not being up to date with the pictures. There
are actually pictures of the Tsotso stove on most of the pages.

Regards to all
Crispin back home in the Ezulwini Valley

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Sep 8 14:16:55 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: Stoves at the Summit
In-Reply-To: <014901c2577f$22497de0$74aafea9@home>
Message-ID: <20020908211656.GC373@cybershamanix.com>

Crispin;
There seems to be something wrong with your website. After getting to the
opening page, the graphics are all missing, and if I click on the boxes where
they should be, it takes me to an error page. They all do the same thing.

On Sun, Sep 08, 2002 at 11:29:05PM +0200, Crispin wrote:
> Dear All and Sundry
>
> Well, I have been back for a few minutes from the Summit and am wading
> through the junk-filled inbox to sort out the wheat which definitely
> includes the messages below.
>
> Tom asked:
>
> >I'd love to see Crispin's stove.
>
> Well, go the website www.newdawn-engineering.com to the Products section.
> Look under stoves for "Stove burning, boiling and efficiency tests" and then
> click on "Basintuthu Stove Tests" to arrive at
> <stove\Tests\basitests\basitest1.htm> (that is not the whole URL).
>
> The one in the top picture is exactly what Dr Agnes Klingshurn from GTZ has
> taken back to Zimbabwe today for pretty comprehensive testing. It is not
> perfect (which David Hancock was quite insistent it should be) but it will
> give an indication of what a hand-crafted one will do. Don't be put off by
> the fact it has a small 10 litre can under it. There are two versions that
> work the same way and one has an ash can under it. The stove has partial
> primary air pre-heating. It is a 4 litre pot. The bakelite handles have
> been removed and a wire loop put on so it can be lifted easily.
>
> Dr Agnes and Marliss (head of the RSA wood stove program who brought Peter
> Scott in) were justifiably sceptical of the stove when they saw and heard
> about it. It breaks a lot of 'rules' being taught hither and yon. An hour
> of cooking was pretty convincing I guess. At a very low power it is very
> efficient though I will wait for them to say what they think it is. The
> pre-heating of the air can keep a tiny fire going. I am formulating a plan
> to do some comprehensive improvement testing of some hardware
> changes/versions to get the primary air firmly under control. That plan
> should be ready for scrutiny in 90 days.
>
> Tom adds:
> >1) I don't think air preheat is necessary or even desirable as
> >it doesn't mix as well with hot gases as dense cold air and
>
> It allows us to burn pretty crummy fuel, and to pyrolize wood to charcoal
> with a very small fire. It also obviates the need for insulation or ceramic
> pipes and so on. Most 'leaking' heat is re-directed into the fire. At low
> power the bottom half of the stove doesn't reach 60 on the outside inspite
> of being over 600C in the centre.
>
> >2) The good thick steel for combustion zone soaks up heat before
> >it can deliver it. I have been amazed that tin cans (tincanium)seem
> >to last forever, are widely available and easy to machine.
>
> Ron's report is slightly misleading. The grate is indeed strong and very
> stiff but it is only 1.2mm thick. The material is a titanium stabilized
> low-chrome stainless steel called 3CR12 which is made in Middleburg, a town
> between Swaziland and Johannesburg. It is very strong but not very
> malleable - almost brittle. It is a little less than 1/2 the price of
> stainless (304L etc). It is shiny (reflective) with an 'as rolled' finish
> called 2B. It discolours with high heat and eventually discolours over time
> anyway. It is welded with a rod called 309L which we use in 1.2mm wire form
> on a MIG welder using an Argon-CO2 blend with a tiny amount of Oxygen in it.
> It will spot-weld.
>
> Ron commented:
> >It is the best I have seen for sale ($26 now - likely to go lower).
>
> This is indeed the present price and we will try hard to get it down to $20.
>
> Dan noted:
> >This looks like a good application for thin rolled iron someday in the
> future.
>
> The temperatures involved will not allow thin unprotected steel to last
> long. It will rust through and especially at the welded points where the
> chemistry is a little wonky. The parts of the stove that do not get touched
> by fire are made from epoxy-coated tin-plated steel. The 25 litre container
> (285mm dia at the top) with a rolled top lip, seam welded with a water tight
> rolled-seal bottom costs only $2 and I am not going to treat the material at
> all. It is impossible to make a can of that size and quality for that price
> by any normal means. We will have to live with what is available unless we
> want to invest literally millions in tooling.
>
> The "... upper outer baffle for getting higher efficiency for the convective
> transfer to the pot. [Ron]" can be made from something better than the 0,6mm
> galv sheet I used but that was just because I had some around the shop. It
> is very malleable which means making a square lip on a ring is a cinch. One
> problem we have seen is that at high power the galvanizing melts and runs
> down like wet paint.
>
> Ron sez: > 4. Controllable primary air (and power out)...
>
> The variability of power out is about 1:7 or 1:5 depending on fuel load and
> conditions. When turning the power down there is a delay during which the
> combustion lower down decreases but gassification continues and the flames
> move up and/or it smokes a little. After a time (1-3 minutes) the internal
> temps drop and it stabilizes at a lower output. Separately controllable
> primary and secondary air would probably fix that. Opening the air vent
> increases the power immediately.
>
> Dan sez: > I am concerned that this pail might be galvanized.
>
> I hope to get it galvanized but that is a difficult option. Zinc, when and
> if it burns off, I understand, is positively beneficial to people with lung
> infections. The olden day treatment for TB was to get a job in a galvanizing
> plant. Breathing the zinc fumes would eventually cure or ameliorate the
> condition. We have terrible TB problems in this region of the world. The
> problem with zinc protection is that it is sacrificial, not real protection.
> Cadmium plating is a terrible danger in a stove and must be avoided
> completely.
>
> My conclusion : Thin, uncoated steel will not last in this device.
>
> Ron sez: > 6. Looked very clean burning after short time in startup.
>
> In the test he saw it took about 30 seconds to 'go secondary' which is
> better than average. The reason was the tiny amount of fuel in it. A
> couple of hardwood sticks and two square briquettes (90gms total) boiled 1.5
> litres of water and kept it simmering (bubbling) for about 50 minutes. I
> found the fuel to be a bit smokey initially though it was certainly hard.
> The firebox was a little over filled height-wise (contributing to smoke) but
> no one had a saw and it was too strong to break. The second demo on
> Saturday(?) used damp newspaper and rained-on wood but apart from taking
> longer to get going it was just fine.
>
> >The stove went, after a high output pyrolyzing period, into
> >a charcoal burning mode.
>
> When the gassification is finished the air vents are opened up to allow for
> a faster charcoal burn to maintain the heat output.
>
> >I haven't yet convinced him that this is worth saving
>
> That's true!
>
> >Can Paul Anderson's, or another version of the removable charcoal
> >holding cartridge be used to remove the char and replace with
> >additional wood?
>
> The present configuration is such that the grate can be lifted out, the
> charcoal removed and some coals swept back inside, more fuel loaded and the
> grate replaced. This is done with a long wire hook (5mm nail wire). The
> Basintuthu Baking Stove comes with a hook for this purpose. The grate in
> the baking stove has a loop over the top for lifting it out. If it is
> important I can put one on the single pot stove grate as well. The baking
> stove is run for longer at higher power so there is a real chance of the
> grate getting plugged up. It is occasionally necessary to remove the grate,
> tip it over and remove the unwanted material. It takes about 1 minutes to
> do this. Also, it allows one to see that it is well lit before returning it
> to the stove. It is removed through the larger pot hole directly over the
> grate.
>
> I apologize for the website not being up to date with the pictures. There
> are actually pictures of the Tsotso stove on most of the pages.
>
> Regards to all
> Crispin back home in the Ezulwini Valley
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From E.KITUYI at CGIAR.ORG Sun Sep 8 22:47:06 2002
From: E.KITUYI at CGIAR.ORG (Kituyi, Evans)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:05 2004
Subject: Stoves at the Summit
Message-ID: <FC788AB9771FD6118E6F0002A5AD7B8FB1ACC7@icrafnttrain.icraf.cgiar.org>

Great! I guess you also visited the Gelfuel-Malawi stove demonstration at
the GTZ stand--i thought this was a great idea and should be promoted
further.
Evans

-----Original Message-----
From: Crispin [mailto:crispin@newdawn.sz]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 12:29 AM
To: Stoves; Cecil E Cook; Jeremy Pemberton-Pigott
Subject: RE: Stoves at the Summit

Dear All and Sundry

Well, I have been back for a few minutes from the Summit and am wading
through the junk-filled inbox to sort out the wheat which definitely
includes the messages below.

Tom asked:

>I'd love to see Crispin's stove.

Tom adds:
>1) I don't think air preheat is necessary or even desirable as
>it doesn't mix as well with hot gases as dense cold air and

>2) The good thick steel for combustion zone soaks up heat before
>it can deliver it. I have been amazed that tin cans (tincanium)seem
>to last forever, are widely available and easy to machine.

Ron commented:
>It is the best I have seen for sale ($26 now - likely to go lower).

This is indeed the present price and we will try hard to get it down to $20.

Dan noted:
>This looks like a good application for thin rolled iron someday in the
future.

Ron sez: > 4. Controllable primary air (and power out)...

Dan sez: > I am concerned that this pail might be galvanized.

My conclusion : Thin, uncoated steel will not last in this device.

Ron sez: > 6. Looked very clean burning after short time in startup.

>The stove went, after a high output pyrolyzing period, into
>a charcoal burning mode.

When the gassification is finished the air vents are opened up to allow for
a faster charcoal burn to maintain the heat output.

>I haven't yet convinced him that this is worth saving

That's true!

>Can Paul Anderson's, or another version of the removable charcoal
>holding cartridge be used to remove the char and replace with
>additional wood?

I apologize for the website not being up to date with the pictures. There
are actually pictures of the Tsotso stove on most of the pages.

Regards to all
Crispin back home in the Ezulwini Valley

From Tk at tke.dk Mon Sep 9 00:15:33 2002
From: Tk at tke.dk (Thomas Koch)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827210121.00a74e38@shawmail>
Message-ID: <005201c257d9$c9a44160$6801a8c0@image.dk>

Dear Ingrid

I just browsed through your web page.

To me it is not clear how many gasifiers you have build and how well they work.
To me it looked very much like "sales talk".
As an example:
Your FBG system has exately the same relative specification for a 40 kw and a 335 kw unit.
It is a down draft system that can handle down to 2mm particles and it produces 4 % CH4 and it have a gas washer with recirkuiation of water.
Is it possible that you could provide us with some more technical data?

Best regards

Thomas Koch

----- Original Message -----
From: <ascent@wilnetonline.net>
To: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>; "Laszlo Paszner" <lpaszner@shaw.ca>
Cc: <Carefreeland@aol.com>; <agniesco@hd2.dot.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>; <gasification@crest.org>; <bioenergy@crest.org>; <LINVENT@aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?

> Dear Sir,
>
> I am Ingrid Fernandes, Sr. Manager, Ankur Scientific, India. We are
> basically a Biomass Gasification company and have been in the business for a
> number of years now, making enough money not only to support ourselves but
> also to support further technology development work through our own
> resources. Do visit our web site www.ankurscientific.com .
>
> Regards,
>
> Ingrid
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>
> To: Laszlo Paszner <lpaszner@shaw.ca>
> Cc: <Carefreeland@aol.com>; <agniesco@hd2.dot.net.in>; <stoves@crest.org>;
> <gasification@crest.org>; <bioenergy@crest.org>; <LINVENT@aol.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:55 PM
> Subject: Re: GAS-L: A plague of criticism, any solutions?
>
>
> > Dear Dr. Paszner
> >
> > Thank you for your very interesting overview on
> > bioenergy.
> >
> > Laszlo Paszner wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear All,
> > >
> > ....del...>
> > > Biomass is largely "undersold" as an alternate renewable energy source
> by
> > > the world authorities and the media. It is lucky if it gets honorable
> > > mention among the renewable energy sources of wind, solar and tidal.
> The
> > > authorities are brainwashed by the petrochemical companies. This is so
> > > because the technologies for these energy forms are owned by the
> > > petrochemical companies, Shell, BP, Texaco, SUNCOR etc. Promotion of
> wind,
> > > solar and tidal energy forms is safe, they do not cut into the gasoline
> > > markets. Wide-scale promotion of wind and solar installations for
> > > developing countries channels much needed developmental funds again to
> the
> > > petrochemical companies (you remember they own these technologies -
> bought
> > > into them quietly 5-6 years ago) leaving the developing countries
> further
> > > in debt and dependent without solving their problem (lack of energy in
> > > rural areas). These are "passive" energy forms because they will not
> > > generate wide-spread sustainable jobs after their installation. As a
> > > result, this power form, regardless of its renewable nature, will remain
> > > inaccessible to the poor because they are left without a
> > > dispasible income. Biomass growing and ethanol production are highly
> > > labor intensive (active) job creators. Thus growing biomass (growing
> the
> > > seedlings, planting, tending and harvesting the forests) requires
> > > continuous attention and will maintain a substantial number of permanent
> > > rural jobs. For every 50 million L/yr ethanol plant, we generate
> between
> > > 75 to 150 permanent, well paying rural jobs. Yet, biomass is not
> promoted
> > > as the true future renewable energy source.
> > >
> > I would suggest that there is not a conspiracy by
> > multi-National Oil Companies to hold back the
> > development of biomass. I would suggest that they can
> > make more money from oil than they can make from
> > biomass, and that is the reason why they process oil.
> > It is very dificult to imagine the multi-National Oil
> > Companies saying "We can make more money on biomass,
> > but we are not going to do that, because we are oil
> > processors."
> >
> > The cruel reality seems to be that it is somewhere
> > between difficult and impossible to make money from
> > biomass energy.
> >
> >
> > > For the biomass program, fast growing and high yielding crops become
> > > important. Comparatively speaking, trees produce 4-8 T/ha . yr biomass
> in
> > > the temperate regions, better yields (18-30 T/ha . yr) can be obtained
> with
> > > both deciduous and coniferous wood species in tropical and sub-tropical
> > > countries. Similar or better yields can be obtained with
> sugarcane/sweet
> > > sorghum and mineral giant reed; up to 45 T/ha .yr. Exceptionally, up to
> > > 60-75 T/ha .yr can be had with Eucalyptus species. So by selective
> biomass
> > > cultivation the target biomass supply will become available while
> > > simultaneously also solving the world's poverty problems.
> >
> > With a ratio of about 15:1 in terms of tropical
> > eucalyptus to temperate forestry yields, if biomass
> > energy even had a chance of being economic, one would
> > see at least some biomass energy companies making money
> > from eucalyptus energy processing. Are there any "stand
> > alone biomass energy successes" anywhere in the world?
> > There may be some businesses successes because of
> > peculiar circumstances, such as waste product disposal,
> > or special incentives. The cruel reality seems to be
> > that, simply put, there is no money to be made in
> > biomass energy.
> >
> > Am I mising something here? Is there anyone making
> > "stand alone money" in biomass anywhere in the world?
> > Is it perhaps a case that biomass energy economics are
> > ruled by a Law that says "The bigger you are, the more
> > you lose?"
> >
> > Kindest regards,
> >
> > Kevin Chisholm
> > >
> >
> > -
> > Gasification List Archives:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
> >
> > Gasification List Moderator:
> > Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> > www.webpan.com/BEF
> > List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> > Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Gasification Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> >
>
>
> -
> Gasification List Archives:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, Reedtb2@cs.com
> www.webpan.com/BEF
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
>
> Sponsor the Gasification List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Gasification Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>

Gasification List Moderator:
Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
-
Gasification List Archives http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
Bioenergy 2002 http://www.bioenergy2002.org/
200 kWe CHP Discussion
http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html
Gasification Reference http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Sep 9 03:31:25 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gelfuel and GTZ stand
In-Reply-To: <FC788AB9771FD6118E6F0002A5AD7B8FB1ACC7@icrafnttrain.icraf.cgiar.org>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIEEJCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Evans (cc stoves, Crispin, and Cecil Cook):

1. You said (message to Crispin and stoves just now): "I guess you also
visited the Gelfuel-Malawi stove demonstration at the GTZ stand--i thought
this was a great idea and should be promoted further."

RWL: I agree with you on both your points. This looked like a very
promising new stove technology. For those who wish to go further, and
hoping Crispin will add further, I found a "Gelfuel" card for a Sandy
Wynne-Jone in Malawi, with the e-mail address "sandy@malawi.net" - who is
also receiving this message. I hope Sandy and others at Gelfuel will join
"stoves" (at bottom of all stoves messages see "List-Subscribe:
<mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>") I will let Sandy add more but say
here that the gelfuel is a straight ethanol product with an added ingredient
to make it distasteful/harmful for human consumption and another which makes
it very slow to pour. Neither ingredient secret nor proprietary, but I don't
know what they are. A two liter bottle was being sold (maybe "advertised")
for a price I don't remember. I think Sandy said the raw bulk ethanol price
in Malawi was US 20 cents per liter - but was available at 10 cents in
Ethiopia because of an oversupply there. I have a vague feeling that the
2-liter bottle might have had a cost of US $1.40. (Sandy?)
The "Gelfule" company was still developing one of their burner products
but several 1 and 2 burner units were on display. I wanted to come back and
talk more but never meshed schedules, so hope we can hear more through
"stoves". For those who know the "sterno" products, this is similar I
think, but less solid. Seemed to be very clean burning as Evans is
suggesting. I would like to hear more on the Gelfuel marketing experience
and to how large an audience this can be a good alternative. The response
of people I overheard at the GTZ booth was very favorable.

2. The Gelfuel display was part of a very large "unplugged kitchen" run by
GTZ and especially the three persons mentioned by Crispin - David Hancock,
Dr. Agnes Klingshirn, and Marliss (or Marlis?) Kees. (also met Paul
Mushamba). I am sending this also to Agnes (aklingshi@compuserve.com) in
hopes that she will send me the e-mail addresses of all those names above -
so I can include all in a separate longer report on the wonderful GTZ stove
exhibit of which Gelfuel was a small (donated space, I believe) part. There
are several German solar cooker names I will also bring in then - as solar
cooking was the main point of this (huge) GTZ "booth".

3. Evans - did we meet during an ISES conference in Denver some decade ago?

4. Evans' (and Crispin's original) message went also to Cecil Cook, whose
name I also heard from Crispin. I hope Cecil can reply off-line so we can
catch up on a relationship going back many years.

5. I intend to respond also soon to Crispin's long and very complete
response to my laudatory remarks on his stove. But I should also add right
away an important point that I left out of my first report - which was that
Crispin does bottom lighting. I think his design should work equally well
with top lighting - although the air-controlled, charcoal-making designs
that some of us have been working on seem to work only with top lighting.
This is very curious to me. This is to ask Crispin if he has tried
top-lighting?

6. I also mean to report more fully on several other stoves topics coming
from the World Summit - but especially on the Hedon meeting organized by
Grant Ballard-Tremeer, but would be pleased if anyone else would start - as
I am still totally disorganized, way behind, and only could attend the first
day of that meeting.

Thanks to Evans for starting a new thread or two.

Ron

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Sep 9 03:56:01 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
Message-ID: <002b01c257f9$25538920$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Evans and interested parties

I have a good look at the enthusiasts with the gel fuel. It looks for all
the world like green dish soap that got dried out a bit. It burns extremely
cleanly - no problem to use it in the house. It lights easily and burns
almost invisibly. The demonstrator once burned his had relighting it, but
it was already going on the first match. It was that difficult to see the
flame in daylight.

The fuel is made from molasses and is being billed as 'renewable' which is
true as long as you do not do an energy audit on the sugar cane. It is
definitely a bio-fuel though rather an indirect one - there is a lot of
chemistry along the production line. I would like to see an energy audit of
the entire system including the distribution chain.

It is being bottled and sold at $0.25 a litre in Malawi, subsidized by the
World Bank. They told me it was unviable without the subsidy though I am
not sure why. Perhaps we should see an energy audit on the money that the
World Bank is using to subsidize the fuel.

The burner is based on a Cobra Wax tin - about 1/2 a litre with a pop on top
that has an air control handle to vary the power. It has a quenching lid
with a cute little wooden knob. The burners are apparently being nearly
given away to NGO's that will give then them away, or something like that.
It is a great idea for refugee camps without other fuel.

The burner can be fitted inside our stove as an alternative to wood and of
course with the shielding it would perform better than it does now as a
competely open little under-the-pot system. They seemed to be interested in
that. It could be placed in a clay pot shield.The unit is about 1/4 the
volume of a single pot paraffin stove.

Regards
Crispin

From ZBihari at ormat.com Mon Sep 9 03:57:24 2002
From: ZBihari at ormat.com (Zoli Bihari)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Millennium GelFuel
Message-ID: <727CFCBBE1C3D41181FC005004201AA00196C057@ormat-nt>

Dear Ron and list members,

Last June I attended the European Biomass Conference held in Amsterdam.
Mr. Boris Utria, form the World Bank, gave a presentation about the
GelFuel project.

I believe that you can still find a detailed projects report at
http://www.developmentmarketplace.org/report963.html

As far as I see, the main problem with projects where the issue is to develop a new, clean-burning fuel,
is the infrastructure (manufacturing, fuel transportation to the villages, etc.) and the huge investment required.
It can be a very useful by-product from ethanol-refineries, but for that, those refineries must be built.

Up to now, the WB doest its best to promote the idea.
Will it be enough?
The future will tell.

Regards

Zoli

Zoli Bihari
Project Manager, R&D
Ormat International
Tel: +1 (775) 356 9029
Fax: +1 (775) 356 9039
E-mail: zbihari@ormat.com

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From owen at africaonline.co.ke Mon Sep 9 05:48:52 2002
From: owen at africaonline.co.ke (Matthew Owen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <002b01c257f9$25538920$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <033601c25807$4722e600$654ecac3@toshibauser>

Dear All,

Thanks for the gel fuel info from WSSD.

As well as being a partner in Chardust where we sell charcoal briquettes in
Kenya, I manage another company here where we import methanol gel for us in
'chafing dishes' in hotels and restaurants. Being an eco-friendly sort, I'd
rather use an ethanol-based product than methanol, as I'm told the former
comes from biomass and the latter from fossil fuels (correction requested!).

However our bottom line is price. We can get the methanol-based product from
the USA or South Korea for as little as $0.70 per litre FOB. And the
suppliers can turn around large orders very quickly (we just imported a 12
tonne container load and they were able to pack and ship within 2 weeks of
payment).

The ethanol gel suppliers that we've heard of tend to be subsidised by a
donor agency and soon collapse when that subsidy is removed. There was a
Zimbabwean product called Kwik Kook that hit Kenya in a wave of enthusiasm
about 4 years ago and then vanished. And the market needs volumes with quick
turnaround and commercial efficiency.

I've asked Sandy Wynne-Jones (?) in Malawi for product and price info and
will inform the group of any relevant feedback. The webpage recommended by
Zoli Bihari summarises the contact names and addresses for the World Bank
'Greenheat' gel fuel project in Zimbabwe, but gives no info on what actually
took place. And the email link they've posted to Sizzle@Zimsurf.co.zw is
dead.

Does anyone know of an ethanol gel that works, is available in bulk, and
that I can buy FOB for less than $0.70 a litre?

Thanks,

Matthew Owen
Chardust/PDS Ltd.
Nairobi
Kenya

----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Gel Fuel

> Dear Evans and interested parties
>
> I have a good look at the enthusiasts with the gel fuel. It looks for all
> the world like green dish soap that got dried out a bit. It burns
extremely
> cleanly - no problem to use it in the house. It lights easily and burns
> almost invisibly. The demonstrator once burned his had relighting it, but
> it was already going on the first match. It was that difficult to see the
> flame in daylight.
>
> The fuel is made from molasses and is being billed as 'renewable' which is
> true as long as you do not do an energy audit on the sugar cane. It is
> definitely a bio-fuel though rather an indirect one - there is a lot of
> chemistry along the production line. I would like to see an energy audit
of
> the entire system including the distribution chain.
>
> It is being bottled and sold at $0.25 a litre in Malawi, subsidized by the
> World Bank. They told me it was unviable without the subsidy though I am
> not sure why. Perhaps we should see an energy audit on the money that the
> World Bank is using to subsidize the fuel.
>
> The burner is based on a Cobra Wax tin - about 1/2 a litre with a pop on
top
> that has an air control handle to vary the power. It has a quenching lid
> with a cute little wooden knob. The burners are apparently being nearly
> given away to NGO's that will give then them away, or something like that.
> It is a great idea for refugee camps without other fuel.
>
> The burner can be fitted inside our stove as an alternative to wood and of
> course with the shielding it would perform better than it does now as a
> competely open little under-the-pot system. They seemed to be interested
in
> that. It could be placed in a clay pot shield.The unit is about 1/4 the
> volume of a single pot paraffin stove.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
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> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>
>

From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Sep 9 10:41:46 2002
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Self Ignition Temperature of Producer Gas
In-Reply-To: <601A55066596D211A7AD00104BC6FB25010D6D78@BACKOFFICE>
Message-ID: <1031596813.3d7ceb0d075e5@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Hi,

For my Juntos "domestic-size" gasifier, I WANT auto-ignition of the producer
gas so that my flame will keep going.

Your messages (below) are very incouraging for me. (but I will not be mixing
any hydrogen!!)
--
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(In Mozambique until early October)

Quoting "Schmidt, Darren" <dschmidt@undeerc.org>:

> Good question. Work we have done in this area is confidential. However
> what I can tell you is that your conditions are close to the borderline of
> ignition vs no ignition. I do not know if there is any public data
> available to help you. You may need to do some experiments to prove it to
> yourself. I can assure you that when hydrogen is mixed with other gasses
> the potential for auto ignition changes, and your statement about avoiding
> autoignition is likely correct. However your concentrations of hydrogen
> are
> higher than the concentrations I am familiar with. I cannot say for sure
> whether you are at the autoignition temperature or not.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: N.Selvakumar (PE/PPP) [mailto:selva@me.iitb.ac.in]
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 6:56 AM
> To: gasification@crest.org
> Subject: GAS-L: Self Ignition Teperature of Producer Gas
>
>
>
> Dear All,
> What will happen if I mix hot Producer Gas (Temperature of gas
> around 400-450C) with air (room temperature).
> 1. Presence of H2 specie in producer gas will self ignite the gas at what
> temperature.
> 2. The dilution ratio of gas to air 3 to 5 (by volume), will this
> dilution ratio avoid self ignition (Since stochiometric A/F ratio for
> Producer gas is 0.98 by volume). Mixing of air to hot producer gas in
> this range of dilution ratio will avoid danger of explosion, Am I
> correct?..
>
> What I have doubt is
> Fundamentals of premixing of high temperature producer gas with room
> Temperature of air.
>
> I welcome all healthy discussion.
>
>
> With Regards,
> Selvakumar
>
>
>
>
> With Regards,
> Selvakumar
>
> ============================================================================
> ==
> | Teleph:022-5722545 Extno:8378/8385/7386
> N.Selvakumar PE |
> C/O Prof.(Mrs.) P.P.Parikh.|
> Dept of Mech Engg. | Want to Know more about My Work, Plz Visit
> IITB, Mumbai. 400 076. |
> India | www.me.iitb.ac.in/garp
> ==========================================================================
> Renewable energy is green, clean and is the future energy source.
>
> So join us in developing sophisticated technology package .
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
> Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
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> -
> Gasification List Archives
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
> Bioenergy 2002 http://www.bioenergy2002.org/
> 200 kWe CHP Discussion
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html
> Gasification Reference
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
>
> >
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
> Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
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> -
> Gasification List Archives
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
> Bioenergy 2002 http://www.bioenergy2002.org/
> 200 kWe CHP Discussion
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html
> Gasification Reference
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
>
> >
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Tue Sep 10 02:10:11 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <002b01c257f9$25538920$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020910200244.00a50790@localhost>

In early 1942, before we had to accept Dai Nippon's hospitality, a friend
and I made ethanol gel from a book of chemical recipes.
I am fairly sure the gelling agent was a mixture of sodium hydroxide and
stearic acid but I forgot the proportions. It formed a gel and it burned
clean (why shouldn't it, being ethanol).
What is the great attraction of having a gel over a liquid fuel?

Peter Verhaart

From E.KITUYI at CGIAR.ORG Tue Sep 10 06:11:52 2002
From: E.KITUYI at CGIAR.ORG (Kituyi, Evans)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gelfuel and GTZ stand
Message-ID: <FC788AB9771FD6118E6F0002A5AD7B8FB39A9E@icrafnttrain.icraf.cgiar.org>

Ron,
thanks for your great points. Looks like there's more to Gelfuel than meets
the eye. I will leave it at that for the time being. Amazing that the World
Bank has invested in the project. No, i wasn't at the ISES meeting. Let me
me hang on for more comments from stovers on the gelfuel chapter.
Evans

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Larson [mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 2:31 PM
To: Kituyi, Evans; Stoves; Cecil E Cook
Cc: Crispin; sandy@malawi.net
Subject: Gelfuel and GTZ stand

Evans (cc stoves, Crispin, and Cecil Cook):

RWL: I agree with you on both your points. This looked like a very
promising new stove technology. For those who wish to go further, and
hoping Crispin will add further, I found a "Gelfuel" card for a Sandy
Wynne-Jone in Malawi, with the e-mail address "sandy@malawi.net" - who is
also receiving this message. I hope Sandy and others at Gelfuel will join
"stoves" (at bottom of all stoves messages see "List-Subscribe:
<mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>") I will let Sandy add more but say
here that the gelfuel is a straight ethanol product with an added ingredient
to make it distasteful/harmful for human consumption and another which makes
it very slow to pour. Neither ingredient secret nor proprietary, but I don't
know what they are. A two liter bottle was being sold (maybe "advertised")
for a price I don't remember. I think Sandy said the raw bulk ethanol price
in Malawi was US 20 cents per liter - but was available at 10 cents in
Ethiopia because of an oversupply there. I have a vague feeling that the
2-liter bottle might have had a cost of US $1.40. (Sandy?)
The "Gelfule" company was still developing one of their burner
products
but several 1 and 2 burner units were on display. I wanted to come back and
talk more but never meshed schedules, so hope we can hear more through
"stoves". For those who know the "sterno" products, this is similar I
think, but less solid. Seemed to be very clean burning as Evans is
suggesting. I would like to hear more on the Gelfuel marketing experience
and to how large an audience this can be a good alternative. The response
of people I overheard at the GTZ booth was very favorable.

3. Evans - did we meet during an ISES conference in Denver some decade ago?

4. Evans' (and Crispin's original) message went also to Cecil Cook, whose
name I also heard from Crispin. I hope Cecil can reply off-line so we can
catch up on a relationship going back many years.

Thanks to Evans for starting a new thread or two.

Ron

From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Sep 10 06:20:10 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020910200244.00a50790@localhost>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEFDCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Peter said: "What is the great attraction of having a gel over a liquid
fuel?"

I am not an expert - but guess it has most to do with safety - it can't
come out of the bottle very fast. Possibly there is also an advantage in
being able to use a more "leaky" container.

Matthew asked about pricing. I will try to find a contact in Ethiopia where
the price was reputed to be 10 cents per liter - becasue of a lack of
market.

Ron

From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Sep 10 06:29:35 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEFDCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIKEFDCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Following up on my last message - I suggest looking at:
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:20035056~menuPK:
34457~pagePK:34370~piPK:42768~theSitePK:4607,00.html

The key person might be Boris Utria.

Ron

From keith at journeytoforever.org Tue Sep 10 08:15:03 2002
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <002b01c257f9$25538920$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <v04210122b9a37f377d5d@[192.168.0.2]>

>In early 1942, before we had to accept Dai Nippon's hospitality, a
>friend and I made ethanol gel from a book of chemical recipes.
>I am fairly sure the gelling agent was a mixture of sodium hydroxide
>and stearic acid but I forgot the proportions. It formed a gel and
>it burned clean (why shouldn't it, being ethanol).
>What is the great attraction of having a gel over a liquid fuel?
>
>Peter Verhaart

I haven't tried this, but I will soon. If anyone else tries it I'd be
interested to know about it. "Y2K Canned Heat emergency fuel":

"Mix 11 grams of Calcium Acetate with 30 mg of water. Make sure all
the Calcium Acetate
is dissolved, this might take an hour of occasional stirring. Measure
10 mg of the solution. Slowly add 40 mg of ethanol. As you add the
ethanol, the mixture should gel instantly. Pour off any remaining
ethanol (a very small amount). Because the mixture gels instantly,
you do not have to combine the two until you need to use it for
cooking."

Should be able to make Calcium Acetate by neutralizing acetic acid
with lime. I'll try it out. If that's the case and it works, then
everything required is probably available locally, or could be.
Ethanol can be brewed on-site (and probably is already), even if it's
not absolute; acetic acid can be brewed the same way, by aerating the
mash, and agricultural lime is fairly ubiquitous.

Solid fuels do have their advantages. I'm not sure if you can burn
ethanol in an ordinary kerosene stove, probably not, nor in a
kerosene lantern (unless it's a Petromax). All you need for this
stuff is a tin can.

Best

Keith Addison

From owen at africaonline.co.ke Tue Sep 10 09:11:38 2002
From: owen at africaonline.co.ke (Matthew Owen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEFDCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <050401c258ec$bd0c47e0$984ecac3@toshibauser>

In the hotel and general catering market, the advantage of gel is indeed to
do with safety - even if you knock over the container it won't pour out on
your tablecloth/carpet/customers. It also seems to be less liable to
evaporate than liquids we have tried. And it doesn't seem as susceptible to
being blown out by strong draughts.

A disadvantage may be wastage. With a liquid you can pour every last drop
out of the dispensing container. With a gel there's always some that sticks
to the inside and can't easily be scraped off.

Would love confirmation of that Ethiopia price Ron - $0.10 per litre just
'up the road' from Nairobi sounds like a deal!

Matthew Owen
Nairobi

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: "Peter Verhaart" <pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>; "Matthew Owen"
<owen@africaonline.co.ke>
Cc: <Stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:38 PM
Subject: RE: Gel Fuel

> Peter said: "What is the great attraction of having a gel over a liquid
> fuel?"
>
> I am not an expert - but guess it has most to do with safety - it can't
> come out of the bottle very fast. Possibly there is also an advantage in
> being able to use a more "leaky" container.
>
> Matthew asked about pricing. I will try to find a contact in Ethiopia
where
> the price was reputed to be 10 cents per liter - becasue of a lack of
> market.
>
> Ron
>
>
>

From rvanderplas at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 10:02:03 2002
From: rvanderplas at yahoo.com (Robert J. van der Plas)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: More on Gel fuel
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910192259.00ac8c00@pop3.uwnet.nl>

Being in Ethiopia now and just having read a market assessment for Gel Fuel
production in Ethiopia produced by two Ethiopian consultants in December
01, here are some of the answers:

heating value: 22 MJ/kg
density??
efficiency of specially designed gel fuel stove: 48%
cost of stove: Birr 50

Production cost, based on a cost of Birr 1.32 per liter of ethanol (incl.
transport from sugar mill to Addis) is estimated at Birr 3.30. This
includes a 15% producer margin and 10% retailer margin. With the Birr as
it is (about 8.5 per US$), this gives about $0.39 per liter. In Ethiopia,
this gives a useful energy cost that is almost double that of kerosene.

I particularly would like to hear more about user reactions: gel fuel is
being produced in Zimbabwe since 2000, so there must be an emerging picture
about the benefits and costs as perceived by the end-user.

Robert

From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Sep 10 17:18:26 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: FW from Bryan Willson: Gel Fuel
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIAEFJCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

This is the first "stoves" message from Professor Willson - who I first met
about 3-4 months ago. He heads a marvelous, well equipped combustion
laboratory at our Colorado State University. Moreover, he spends
considerable time in overseas projects and student hands-on projects and is
now assisting the ethos team in detailed tests of the "rocket" (as hinted at
below). We could make a lot of fast progress on stoves if we could get more
help from others like Bryan. Anyone know of prior detailed testing on
gelfuels combustion?

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Willson [mailto:Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:57 AM
To: Ron Larson
Subject: FW: Gel Fuel

Ron -

I have tried to post this to the Stoves listserve, but am having some
problems. I keep getting some authorization denied messages, etc. I have
returned the message back to the list administrator as requested in the
denial message, so assume it will be sorted out.

Could you go ahead and post this to the site for me?

Thanks!

- Bryan Willson

Dr. Bryan Willson
Professor of Mechanical Engineering
Research Director, Engines & Energy Conversion Laboratory
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, Colorado 80523-1374
Phone: (970)-491-4783
Mobile: (970)-227-5164
FAX: (970)-491-4799
EECL Web Site: www.engr.colostate.edu\EECL

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Willson [mailto:Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:03 AM
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: RE: Gel Fuel

Here's a concern that I have with the current discussion of gel ethanol as a
cooking fuel. Ethanol can be a prolific producer of acetaldehyde when it
burns, which is pretty nasty stuff. This is a big deal in ethanol-fueled
engines. Ethanol and acetaldehyde are both 2-carbon oxygenates.
Acetaldehyde is formed from partial oxidation of ethanol. The next aldehyde
up the "carbon chain" is acrolein, which is particularly toxic, even in very
small quantities. Various regulatory authorities in the U.S. are looking at
establishing emissions limits for acrolein of only a few parts per billion.

I suspect that when liquid ethanol is burned in a stove with good air/fuel
control and mixing, the acetaldehyde emissions may be low. However, I would
have concerns about burning gel ethanol "from a tin can." This isn't all
that different from using Sterno, but Sterno is seldom used as a primary
fuel every day. I would be particularly concerned that "tin can stoves"
with gel ethanol would become popular for everyday indoor cooking where the
acetaldehyde could become concentrated.

Its possible that the stuff would burn without aldehyde emissions, but this
should be investigated. We've been doing some exhaust speciation of stoves
recently using a Fourier Transform Infrared Spectrometer (FTIR) to measure
the aldehydes and other "hazardous air pollutants" (HAPs). Perhaps we can
take a sniff of burning Sterno the next time we light up.

Over the years, we've seen far too many cases where a new technology has
succeeded in reducing easily measured pollutants (i.e. CO) but have created
a mess with the HAPs which are harder to measure.

Sorry to rain on the parade, but I think some caution is needed.

- Bryan Willson

From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Sep 10 17:32:55 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <050401c258ec$bd0c47e0$984ecac3@toshibauser>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEFJCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Matthew (cc stoves, Sandy, Bob):

Bob Van der Plas has today given a higher price than 10c in Ethiopia - but
there may be a difference in magnitudes of purchase (or timing). But his
price of 39 c per liter is still better than your price of 70c.

I think Sandy was the one who mentioned the 10c value - and so it will be
interesting to see if I heard it right or wrong - as you/we hear back from
him.

I presume the Ethiopian sugar cane plantations are near the Kenyan border -
perhaps you can arrange transport of bulk ethanol south to you instead of to
Addis and get a better price that way.

Thanks for the further data.

Bob mentioned that 39 c was about double that for kerosene. I wonder if
there is a subsidy in that? I hope Bob can report further on any stoves
information available from Ethiopia? (And others can answer Bob's questions
on societal acceptability.) (and Bryan's cautions!)

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Owen [mailto:owen@africaonline.co.ke]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:19 AM
To: Stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Gel Fuel

A disadvantage may be wastage. With a liquid you can pour every last drop
out of the dispensing container. With a gel there's always some that sticks
to the inside and can't easily be scraped off.

Would love confirmation of that Ethiopia price Ron - $0.10 per litre just
'up the road' from Nairobi sounds like a deal!

Matthew Owen
Nairobi

From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Sep 10 18:33:07 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <v04210122b9a37f377d5d@[192.168.0.2]>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIAEFLCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

keith (cc Stoves)

Thanks for closing the loop on how to convert ethanol to a gel. Not quite
what I remember (which involved a leaf or seed)- but maybe we will hear
more.

Since we hadn't heard from you in some time, I visited your
www.journeytoforever.org site and was again very impressed - especially on
your work on biofuels - which explains in part your response today on making
a gel. I recommend this site to others interested in ethanol (and
biodiesel).

Congratulations on the numerous nice things people have been saying on your
educational work. Any specific plans on starting your return trip to South
Africa? I have been getting a hard time from my wife for not getting to
Cape Town - it sounds like a wonderful place to visit (and return to).

Please give us more data on any other stoves topics that you may have been
working on. I intend to use your own website emphasis on solar cooking to
next set down some of the thoughts I have had from the WSSD. I look forward
to your further thoughts on that subject especially.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Addison [mailto:keith@journeytoforever.org]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:08 AM
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Gel Fuel

>In early 1942, before we had to accept Dai Nippon's hospitality, a

<snip>

From tmiles at trmiles.com Tue Sep 10 21:38:10 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Fw: Information on Ethanol-Kerosene Blends
Message-ID: <02c501c25954$dccf4010$0301a8c0@tomslaptop>

Does anyone have expertise is this
area?

Tom Miles
----- Original Message -----
From: <A
title=shimadm@yahoo.com href="mailto:shimadm@yahoo.com">Shimelis Admassie

To: <A title=owner-bioenergy@crest.org
href="mailto:owner-bioenergy@crest.org">owner-bioenergy@crest.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:41 AM
Subject: Information on Ethanol-Kerosene Blends

Dear Sir,I found your web-page while searching for
informationon Ethanol-kerosene blends. I would be very much gladif
you could give me information on works done inblending ETHANOL with
KEROSENE, particularly forhousehold cooking using the normal stoves that
usekerosene only!Sincerely yoursShimelis Admassie

Yahoo! - We Remember9-11: <A
href="http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute">A tribute to the more than 3,000
lives lost

From owen at africaonline.co.ke Wed Sep 11 00:13:15 2002
From: owen at africaonline.co.ke (Matthew Owen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: More on Gel fuel
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910192259.00ac8c00@pop3.uwnet.nl>
Message-ID: <00cf01c2596a$b7a62680$7c4ecac3@toshibauser>

Robert:

That's a pretty low energy value for the Ethiopian ethanol gel. 22 MJ/kg? I
believe kerosene is 44 MJ/kg.

I guess the methanol gel we import from Korea must have similar properties
as we've found that a small tin of 210 gms burns for 4 hours and keeps food
hot, but doesn't give off sufficient heat for actual cooking.

Are these gels people are citing from southern Africa actually giving off
enough heat to cook with, without using a whole tubfull? Like you, I'd like
to hear more about actual user satisfaction in terms of performance vs.
price. One can't help feeling that if they actually work well in small
affordable quantities then they'd already have penetrated a number of
African domestic markets - and they don't appear to have done so.

Matthew Owen
Nairobi
Kenya

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert J. van der Plas" <rvanderplas@yahoo.com>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:44 PM
Subject: More on Gel fuel

> Being in Ethiopia now and just having read a market assessment for Gel
Fuel
> production in Ethiopia produced by two Ethiopian consultants in December
> 01, here are some of the answers:
>
> heating value: 22 MJ/kg
> density??
> efficiency of specially designed gel fuel stove: 48%
> cost of stove: Birr 50
>
> Production cost, based on a cost of Birr 1.32 per liter of ethanol (incl.
> transport from sugar mill to Addis) is estimated at Birr 3.30. This
> includes a 15% producer margin and 10% retailer margin. With the Birr as
> it is (about 8.5 per US$), this gives about $0.39 per liter. In Ethiopia,
> this gives a useful energy cost that is almost double that of kerosene.
>
> I particularly would like to hear more about user reactions: gel fuel is
> being produced in Zimbabwe since 2000, so there must be an emerging
picture
> about the benefits and costs as perceived by the end-user.
>
> Robert
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>
>

From rvanderplas at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 03:51:07 2002
From: rvanderplas at yahoo.com (Robert J. van der Plas)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: More on Gel fuel
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910192259.00ac8c00@pop3.uwnet.nl>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020911125025.00ac5400@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

Matthew,

At 11:04 AM 2002-09-11 +0300, Matthew Owen wrote:
>Robert:
>
>That's a pretty low energy value for the Ethiopian ethanol gel. 22 MJ/kg? I
>believe kerosene is 44 MJ/kg.

That's why mixing it with kerosene doesn't make sense: kerosene is cheaper
and has a higher HV; mixing it with a lower value fuel that is more
expensive gives an inferior fuel at higher costs.

>I guess the methanol gel we import from Korea must have similar properties
>as we've found that a small tin of 210 gms burns for 4 hours and keeps food
>hot, but doesn't give off sufficient heat for actual cooking.

A low HV would explain this. Off hand I don't know the heating value of
methanol, probably lower than ethanol.

>Are these gels people are citing from southern Africa actually giving off
>enough heat to cook with, without using a whole tubfull? Like you, I'd like
>to hear more about actual user satisfaction in terms of performance vs.
>price. One can't help feeling that if they actually work well in small
>affordable quantities then they'd already have penetrated a number of
>African domestic markets - and they don't appear to have done so.
>
>Matthew Owen
>Nairobi
>Kenya
>

Ron, you asked about stoves:

Firewood is the cheapest option, if people use efficient stoves.
Charcoal with a normal stove is almost as expensive as firewood with a
traditional stove; charcoal with an efficient stove is cheaper than
firewood (tr), but more expensive than firewood (eff).
Kerosene is about equally expensive as charcoal (eff); and LPG is the most
expensive. Electricity is slightly more expensive than firewood (tr).

This of course, changes over time, as woodfuel prices can vary for many
reasons, and should be used with some precaution. LPG is roughly at cost
(taxed); electricity is fairly cheap (all hydro) but not completely at
LRMC; kerosene is not taxed and subject to a 14% promotional
reduction. Gel fuel is projected at costs, although a promotional
reduction could be envisaged (not included in the data below). Please note
that most Ethiopians use firewood that they collect. The fuel-stove mix
presented is an urban scenario.

What it boils down to is that charcoal, even in a traditional stove, is a
good price/quality combination. Because of the inefficiencies of the
charcoal production process, this is unfortunate, as it will impact
considerably on the resource base. Households who can afford to invest in
other modern fuels than charcoal have several options to their disposal
that give reasonable results.

Stoves (firewood, charcoal) are between $2 and $5; kerosene stoves between
$5 and $20, LPG stoves $35 and up, and hotplates or electric stoves for $12
and much up. For an improved woodfuel stove to be acceptable, other than
esthetics, size, controllability, efficiency, the price is the most
important factor. I doubt that the Rocket stove type would have much of a
chance here.

The table below shows useful energy (MJeff) costs in US cents, plus savings
relative to firewood (traditional stove).

stove/fuel combination

Fuelwood impr. Stove
0.01$
per
MJeff

1.0
% more expensive than firewood (tr)

52%
Charcoal Impr. Stove 1.4 35%
Kero Pressure stove 1.5 30%
Kero Wick stove 1.6 25%
Charcoal Tr. stove 1.8 19%
Fuelwood tr. Stove 2.2 0%
Electricity 2.5 - 16%
Gel fuel 3.0 - 39%
LPG 4.8 - 122%

Whether or not people adopt gel fuel will depend on how modern they
perceive the fuel-stove combination (in relation to other modern fuel-stove
combinations) and how easy it is to cook with. As already indicated by
others, there are quite a few advantages to this fuel. That's why I'd like
to hear more from users to see if/how this fuel should be promoted.

Robert

From raywije at eureka.lk Thu Sep 12 03:43:56 2002
From: raywije at eureka.lk (Ray Wijewardene)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <033601c25807$4722e600$654ecac3@toshibauser>
Message-ID: <MABBKKNLMCKBBJKBLMGNEEOMCMAA.raywije@eureka.lk>

Greetings to you Matthew Owen; I usually maintain a very silent 'listening
and learning' watch on the Stoves discussions, but as no-one else has
offered to respond to your 'ethanol' v/s 'Methanol' dilemma, may I explain
that methanol is the original 'wood alchohol'... and was for decades (and
particularly in the lmid-late 1800s)distilled from wood. Our mutual Guru,
Tom Reed has written most erudite BOOKS on the subject....it is very closely
related to natural-gas (methane or CH4) and thus very near 'neat'
hydrogen,... the fuel of the future! But is acknowledged to be
mammalian-toxic...i.e. not to be consumed, and this is largely because if
its very high affinity to water... it absorbs water VERY fast... even water
in the human body! Ethanol, however, is distilled from starches, grain and
other consumable vegetative matter and is the base of all 'hooch'. Maybe
your 'eco-friendly' designation might well apply here... but whatever is
converted to ethanol or grain-alchohol deprives some animal of that
food-grain.

My 'druthers' where fuel is concerned are very much in favour of methane,
the wood-alchohol. In Sri Lanka we have a major on-going program titled
GROWING OUR OWN ENERGY for the accellerated growing of trees (ideally NF
trees, planted at a high density of 5,000 trees per hectare) for BOTH
environmental as well as fuel-wood and rural-income-generating purposes.
Just talking to people about saving forests, growing more trees, etc. does
not seem to work as well as making the GROWING of trees PROFITABLE .... And
the coppicing system enables one to retain the GROWING trees while
sustainably lopping the branches which reach about 40-50mm in diameter only
for fuel-wood...Repeat ONLY, as anything larger would imply that the trunk
of the tree is being cut and that would be a non-sustainable practise... All
the smaller branches are encouraged to grow and develop profusely and thus
produce the ever-green forest. The major new market for fuel-wood is for the
gasifiers (now springing up around the countryside and mainly on waste-land)
for generating electrical energy which is then sold to the grid or fed into
the nearest rural electrification program. [A sort-of environmentally and
eco-friendly way to preserve your cake and nibble it!] We hope and expect
that the surplus fuel-wood from the program will then be converted to
methanol/methane/hydrogen.... whatever!

Surely, Methanol CAN be made from fossil-fuel, just as most any hydro-carbon
can be produced from any other... depending upon the costs for the
processing thereof.

Ray Wijewardene.... Colombo.... Sri-Lanka.

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Owen [mailto:owen@africaonline.co.ke]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:46 AM
To: Stoves
Subject: Re: Gel Fuel

Dear All,

Thanks for the gel fuel info from WSSD.
As well as being a partner in Chardust where we sell charcoal briquettes in
Kenya, I manage another company here where we import methanol gel for us in
'chafing dishes' in hotels and restaurants. Being an eco-friendly sort, I'd
rather use an ethanol-based product than methanol, as I'm told the former
comes from biomass and the latter from fossil fuels (correction requested!).

Does anyone know of an ethanol gel that works, is available in bulk, and
that I can buy FOB for less than $0.70 a litre?

Thanks,

Matthew Owen
Chardust/PDS Ltd.
Nairobi
Kenya

From rmiranda at entelnet.bo Thu Sep 12 05:14:05 2002
From: rmiranda at entelnet.bo (Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: A note in AAC
In-Reply-To: <023c01c252cb$b4d67ef0$0100a8c0@pentium>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20020912081829.00acc400@entelnet.bo>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/attachments/20020912/2b0d52d4/attachment.html
From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Sep 12 05:34:24 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <033601c25807$4722e600$654ecac3@toshibauser>
Message-ID: <20020912123436.GA5471@cybershamanix.com>

On Thu, Sep 12, 2002 at 05:44:01PM -0600, Ray Wijewardene wrote:

(much snipped)

> in the human body! Ethanol, however, is distilled from starches, grain and
> other consumable vegetative matter and is the base of all 'hooch'. Maybe
> your 'eco-friendly' designation might well apply here... but whatever is
> converted to ethanol or grain-alchohol deprives some animal of that
> food-grain.

Not so! The ethanol process leaves a very high-protein animal feed, usually
marketed under the name of "brewer's grain", so you get just as much food as you
would from the original crop.
Also see: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html

(rest snipped)

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk Thu Sep 12 06:52:45 2002
From: Gavin at roseplac.worldonline.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <20020912123436.GA5471@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGOEHGCGAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>

The carbohydrate in the Grain will be converted to alcohol but the proteins
remain.

The question is should we be feeding grazing animals high protein
supplements?

_ at least grain derived is better than animal derived as we had here in the
UK until various food scares and foot & Mouth knocked some sense back into
the farming industry- this included Agrochemical manufacturers and
legislators and is NOT a knock on British Farmers who are working in a
strangely contorted market.
For this list surely the question is more to do with available feedstock,
and best conversion efficiency.
Is Wood Methanol lower energy to manufacture than grain Ethanol?
Kg/kg which fuel has the best CV and burning characteristics?
Can it be made locally? Safely?
Should the grain be cooked on methanol stoves and eaten by people? Or should
wood be cooked over ethanolstoves....? -to sell the charcoal ;-)

Cheers
Gavin
-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:hseaver@cybershamanix.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 13:35
To: Ray Wijewardene
Cc: owen@africaonline.co.ke; stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Gel Fuel

On Thu, Sep 12, 2002 at 05:44:01PM -0600, Ray Wijewardene wrote:

(much snipped)

Not so! The ethanol process leaves a very high-protein animal feed,
usually
marketed under the name of "brewer's grain", so you get just as much food as
you
would from the original crop.
Also see: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html

(rest snipped)

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Sep 12 07:38:31 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <20020912123436.GA5471@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20020912143925.GA5578@cybershamanix.com>

I should have added that one of the best feedstocks for ethanol production is
cattails. Much better yields per acre than grains, plus it grows where normal
food crops won't (other than rice), the starchy roots used for ethanol plus
creating great animal feed in the process (of course, cattail roots have long
been a human food as well), the tops for gasification, and the seed heads
pressed for oil.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Thu Sep 12 07:42:52 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel - From Biomass or Fossil Fuel?
In-Reply-To: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGOEHGCGAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDOECJEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

I have been following the discussion on ethanol production with interest.
The assumption is that most ethanols is produced from biomass. In fact,
most ethanol used industrially (at least in the U.S.) is made synthetically
by the hydration of ethylene (CH2-CH2 + H2O = CH3CH2OH). Ethanol for
ethylene is the same stuff chemically as ethanol from biomass, although
there may be trace substances in ethanol from ethylene which make it
unsuitable for human consumption.

Production of ethanol from ethylene is most certainly a greenhouse gas
loser. The economics of ethanol from biomass vs. ethylene are probably
highly dependant on the amount of the agriculture subsidy paid to grow the
biomass and whether there are other incentives to use agricultural ethanol.

I have sent off a few requests to try to get detailed statistics of
fermentation ethanol vs. ethylene ethanol around the world.

- Bryan Willson

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Sep 12 08:46:12 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel - From Biomass or Fossil Fuel?
In-Reply-To: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGOEHGCGAA.Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020912154709.GA5625@cybershamanix.com>

On Thu, Sep 12, 2002 at 09:41:09AM -0600, Bryan Willson wrote:
> I have been following the discussion on ethanol production with interest.
> The assumption is that most ethanols is produced from biomass. In fact,
> most ethanol used industrially (at least in the U.S.) is made synthetically
> by the hydration of ethylene (CH2-CH2 + H2O = CH3CH2OH). Ethanol for
> ethylene is the same stuff chemically as ethanol from biomass, although
> there may be trace substances in ethanol from ethylene which make it
> unsuitable for human consumption.
>
> Production of ethanol from ethylene is most certainly a greenhouse gas
> loser. The economics of ethanol from biomass vs. ethylene are probably
> highly dependant on the amount of the agriculture subsidy paid to grow the
> biomass and whether there are other incentives to use agricultural ethanol.

There is a major problem with current agricultural ethanol programs that
focus on corn as a feedstock -- an extremely poor choice, except for the heavy
subsidy which currently makes corn the cheapest heating fuel of all in the
US. Likewise the same can be said of the current biodiesel programs, based on
soybeans, another extremely poor choice of feedstock. And, of course, we also
need to factor in the subsidies paid to the oil industry when dicussing
economics of any biofuels.

>
> I have sent off a few requests to try to get detailed statistics of
> fermentation ethanol vs. ethylene ethanol around the world.
>

You might want to look at http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html
regarding this if you haven't already.

> - Bryan Willson
>
> Dr. Bryan Willson
> Professor of Mechanical Engineering
> Research Director, Engines & Energy Conversion Laboratory
> Department of Mechanical Engineering
> Colorado State University
> Fort Collins, Colorado 80523-1374
> Phone: (970)-491-4783
> Mobile: (970)-227-5164
> FAX: (970)-491-4799
> EECL Web Site: www.engr.colostate.edu\EECL
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From tmiles at trmiles.com Thu Sep 12 09:06:27 2002
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <20020912123436.GA5471@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <002801c25a7e$6d8ab060$6601a8c0@tommain>

The loudest voice that we have heard for cattails over the last 25 years came from
Minnesota. When you go to Minnesota it's easy to see why. Has anyone ever done
anything with them commercially for feed, fuel or fiber?

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: "Gavin Gulliver-Goodall" <Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: Gel Fuel

> I should have added that one of the best feedstocks for ethanol production is
> cattails. Much better yields per acre than grains, plus it grows where normal
> food crops won't (other than rice), the starchy roots used for ethanol plus
> creating great animal feed in the process (of course, cattail roots have long
> been a human food as well), the tops for gasification, and the seed heads
> pressed for oil.
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> -
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Thu Sep 12 09:38:28 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:06 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <20020912123436.GA5471@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <20020912163924.GB5688@cybershamanix.com>

There were some fairly intensive investigations of cattails for biomass and
ethanol back in the late '70s, early '80s. I've collected quite a few of the
papers, and one of these days when I find the time, I'll get it all scanned and
up on a website. Pretty interesting stuff, even a good bit on various harvesting
machinery.
As to commercial uses, Native Americans used cattails extensively, for food
and fiber, but I don't know of anything more recent. It's a truly win-win
situation currently however, for someone with the capital to get an operation
off the ground, since there are many bioremediation projects trying to eradicate
cattails in large areas. I know of two projects right near me in central WI
where many thousands of acres could be harvested, probably with state grant
money as a bonus.
Probably the biggest roadblock to using cattails for energy would be in the
farm lobby and big oil lobby, both of which would certainly see it as a threat.

On Thu, Sep 12, 2002 at 10:04:13AM -0700, Tom Miles wrote:
> The loudest voice that we have heard for cattails over the last 25 years came from
> Minnesota. When you go to Minnesota it's easy to see why. Has anyone ever done
> anything with them commercially for feed, fuel or fiber?
>
> Tom Miles
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> To: "Gavin Gulliver-Goodall" <Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>
> Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:39 AM
> Subject: Re: Gel Fuel
>
>
> > I should have added that one of the best feedstocks for ethanol production is
> > cattails. Much better yields per acre than grains, plus it grows where normal
> > food crops won't (other than rice), the starchy roots used for ethanol plus
> > creating great animal feed in the process (of course, cattail roots have long
> > been a human food as well), the tops for gasification, and the seed heads
> > pressed for oil.
> >
> > --
> > Harmon Seaver
> > CyberShamanix
> > http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200204/
> > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> > >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > >
> > Sponsor the Stoves List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
> > -
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.bioenergy2002.org
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> > >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> > >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
> >
> >
>

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

-
Stoves List Archives and Website:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
Stoves List Moderators:
Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com

Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon

List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>
For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From keith at journeytoforever.org Thu Sep 12 13:46:56 2002
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIAEFLCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <v04210118b9a638730474@[192.168.0.2]>

Hello Ron and all

>keith (cc Stoves)
>
> Thanks for closing the loop on how to convert ethanol to a
>gel. Not quite
>what I remember (which involved a leaf or seed)- but maybe we will hear
>more.

I tried it out.

That should be mg, not grams, as several people pointed out
(thanks!). I made some calcium acetate by neutralizing acetic acid
with lime. It works well, gels immediately, burns nicely, but it's
not very stable, best to make it when you need it.

Here's another one, with proprietory ingredients:

Ethanol Solid Fuel Gel / Fire Starter

Carbopol EZ-3 Polymer · Primary thickener for alcohol systems -
neutralization with a specific amine is critical
· Provides good clarity and overall aesthetics
· Low skinning & cracking
· Approximate burn time of 2.5 hours per 200 grams
· Self-wetting polymer for improved handling and easier full-scale processing

Formulation
Percent Function Trade Name Supplier
Carbopol EZ-3 - Weight Percent 0.55 - Thickener - Noveon, Inc.
DI Water - Weight Percent 23.90 - Diluent
Ethanol - Weight Percent 75.00 - Fuel
Triisopropanolamine - Weight Percent 0.55 - Neutralizing agent - Dow Chemical
100.00

Procedure
1. Add the Carbopol EZ-3 polymer to the deionized water with no
agitation. The polymer will wet out in a few minutes.
2. With moderate agitation, add the ethanol.
3. Heat the triisopropanolamine until melted and add with good
agitation. The product will thicken during this step.
Increased agitation will be required.

> Since we hadn't heard from you in some time, I visited your
>www.journeytoforever.org site and was again very impressed - especially on
>your work on biofuels - which explains in part your response today on making
>a gel. I recommend this site to others interested in ethanol (and
>biodiesel).
>
> Congratulations on the numerous nice things people have been
>saying on your
>educational work. Any specific plans on starting your return trip to South
>Africa? I have been getting a hard time from my wife for not getting to
>Cape Town - it sounds like a wonderful place to visit (and return to).
>
> Please give us more data on any other stoves topics that you
>may have been
>working on. I intend to use your own website emphasis on solar cooking to
>next set down some of the thoughts I have had from the WSSD. I look forward
>to your further thoughts on that subject especially.

Thankyou Ron - that's very encouraging!

We haven't done much more work on our woodstove, for now, though
other people seem to have taken up aspects of the design.
http://journeytoforever.org/teststove.html

We should be ready to set off in about six months or so. Lots of hard
work, but we're getting there, things are falling into place well
now. We should be able to start expanding soon.

Thanks again Ron

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Osaka, Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/

>Ron
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Keith Addison [mailto:keith@journeytoforever.org]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:08 AM
>To: stoves@crest.org
>Subject: Re: Gel Fuel
>
>
> >In early 1942, before we had to accept Dai Nippon's hospitality, a
>
> <snip>

From sebastian.lievre at eurocontrol.int Thu Sep 12 22:18:47 2002
From: sebastian.lievre at eurocontrol.int (LIEVRE Sebastian)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: why rock wool ?
Message-ID: <CD4F7F9A2B7DD41194B900508BB0B8DD024BCD39@agnfr02.eurocontrol.fr>

bonjour à tous,

i am used to read but not to write on this forum,
i have a question about mass stove and the expansion layer between the core
of the stove and the second layer.
Why couldn't we leave air between the two (about 2cm)? why smthg like rock
wool instead ?

thanks for your advice

sebastien

From elk at wananchi.com Thu Sep 12 22:53:15 2002
From: elk at wananchi.com (elk)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Ashden Awards for Sustainable Energy 2003
Message-ID: <000401c25af1$fe212b40$0f47083e@default>

Stovers;

I have been asked to announce the call for
submissions for the 2003 Ashdon Award for Sustainable Energy on this
list.

We have a couple Stoves list members- the Karves-
who have already won this prestigious award for their ground-breaking work with
community-based energy supply in India.

Tom Miles and Tom Reed: Could you please forward
this announcement to other appropriate CREST lists please?

Many thanks.

elk

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ashden Award for Sustainable
EnergyThe Ashden Trust is inviting submissions for the Ashden Awards
forSustainable Energy 2003. Four first prizes of up to £30,000 each
will beawarded to outstanding sustainable energy projects (three for
developingcountries and one for the UK). The awards are for community-based
renewableenergy and full details of criteria and application forms can be
found onthe new website: www.ashdenawards.org.We hope to publicise the awards as widely
as possible and I would begrateful if you could post this announcement on
your list.We look forward to receiving applications in due course, and
by the 29thNovember 2002
deadline.-------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------Elsen L.
Karstadelk@wananchi.com<A
href="http://www.chardust.com">www.chardust.comNairobi
Kenya

From owen at africaonline.co.ke Thu Sep 12 23:13:29 2002
From: owen at africaonline.co.ke (Matthew Owen)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: ethanol gel in the real world
Message-ID: <030101c25af4$d1f1ccc0$944dcac3@toshibauser>

Dear All,

While the discussion on how to manufacture ethanol gel is certainly
interesting, most of the basic questions that have posed by list
contributors concerning cost, performance and practical viability are not
being answered.

For example, Robert van der Plas said:

"Whether or not people adopt gel fuel will depend on how modern they
perceive the fuel-stove combination ... and how easy it is to cook with."

"I particularly would like to hear more about user reactions: gel fuel is
being produced in Zimbabwe since 2000, so there must be an emerging picture
about the benefits and costs as perceived by the end-user."

Ron Larson said:

"I would like to hear more on the Gelfuel marketing experience and to how
large an audience this can be a good alternative."

I said:

"I'd like to hear more about actual user satisfaction in terms of
performance vs.price. One can't help feeling that if they actually work well
in small affordable quantities then they'd already have penetrated a number
of African domestic markets - and they don't appear to have done so."

And Crispin said:

"It is being bottled and sold at $0.25 a litre in Malawi, subsidized by the
World Bank. They told me it was unviable without the subsidy though I am
not sure why."

It sounds to me like we are crying out for information on the actual
real-world viability of this fuel, and the manufacturers and promoters are
conspicuously silent.

Can they please speak up??

Matthew Owen
Nairobi, Kenya

From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Sep 13 01:48:19 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: ethanol gel in the real world
In-Reply-To: <030101c25af4$d1f1ccc0$944dcac3@toshibauser>
Message-ID: <008401c25b0c$20a33fe0$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Matthew and All

Just so everyone has a chance to investigate the truth for themselves (a
principle I hold dear):

GELFUEL
Sandy Wynne-Jones
Manager Director
RSA Cell phone (++268) 72-271-9110

P.O. Box 233
Salima, Malawi
Tel/Fax (++265) 1-263-541
Cell (++265) 991-1403

P.O. Box 40530
Kanengo, Lilongwe 3
Malawi
Tel/Fax (++265) 1-710-927

Email: sandy@malawi.net

Regards
Crispin

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Fri Sep 13 02:47:48 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <MABBKKNLMCKBBJKBLMGNEEOMCMAA.raywije@eureka.lk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020913204450.00a5ee30@localhost>

At 07:34 12/09/02 -0500, you wrote:

> Not so! The ethanol process leaves a very high-protein animal feed,
> usually
>marketed under the name of "brewer's grain", so you get just as much food
>as you
>would from the original crop.
> Also see: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html

I don't believe it. Ethanol results from the action of yeast on sugars.
Sugars are food and sugars are consumed in ethanol fermentation.

Peter Verhaart

From jeff.forssell at cfl.se Fri Sep 13 03:09:55 2002
From: jeff.forssell at cfl.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: SV: Gel Fuel
Message-ID: <A11397FBE741D411B2E700D0B74770E9B5D49B@tyr.ssvh.se>

Brewers Yeast is a food supplement (sold in health stores) that has a high
content of both vitamins and protein. Of course the energy ("calorie")
content of the original material must be decreased. No "free lunch" as
usual, but maybe a more nutrititous lunch.

Jeff Forssell
"SWEDISH AGENCY FOR FLEXIBLE LEARNING"

Personal homepage: http://www.torget.se/users/i/iluhya/index.htm
My village technology page: http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell
Instant messengers Odigo 792701 (Yahoo: jeff_forssell, ICQ: 55800587)

> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Från: Peter Verhaart [SMTP:pverhaart@optusnet.com.au]
> Skickat: den 13 september 2002 12:47
> Till: Harmon Seaver
> Kopia: stoves@crest.org
> Ämne: Re: Gel Fuel
>
> At 07:34 12/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
> > Not so! The ethanol process leaves a very high-protein animal feed,
> > usually
> >marketed under the name of "brewer's grain", so you get just as much food
>
> >as you
> >would from the original crop.
> > Also see: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html
>
>
> I don't believe it. Ethanol results from the action of yeast on sugars.
> Sugars are food and sugars are consumed in ethanol fermentation.
>
> Peter Verhaart
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.h
> tm

From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Sep 13 04:10:01 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: why rock wool ?
In-Reply-To: <CD4F7F9A2B7DD41194B900508BB0B8DD024BCD39@agnfr02.eurocontrol.fr>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEGPCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Sebastien:

You ask a wonderful question - and at the right time. See a few notes
below as a start. I hope others will join in. Please also tell us more
about yourself and the reasons for your interest in stoves and where you are
living. It would be especially helpful to hear in detail on the present
method of cooking for the area in which you are interested.

You said:
1. "i have a question about mass stove and the expansion layer between the
core
of the stove and the second layer."

RWL: I first should say that most of us on this list are trying to reduce
the mass - as generally not being an efficient approach to using fuelwood.
There is much emphasis on lightweight, insulative bricks for the inner
wall - which can provide (we hope) sufficient strength but not abosrb and
transmit as much energy into the mass. And with such an approach there is
no need for anything else.
But I think you know this because of the latter part of your question
calling for an "expansion layer". The rocket stove certainly usually has
this feature with several materials used therein. They have also
extensively used metal for the inner wall.

You also said:
2. "Why couldn't we leave air between the two (about 2cm)?"
RWL: The other large group of stoves list members is using metal
throughout and using multiple layers of metal - as the more layers the more
insulative.
I liked Crispin's design (mentioned about a week ago) so much because he
had three layers of metal, with air flow between all, gaining a further
efficiency advantage from preheating both primary and secondary air. His
separations are about as you state.
We tend to avoid multiple layers of metal as each costs a bit more. You
have to be sure that the added pieces provide a fuel saving comensurate with
their costs.
At the GTZ exhibit at the "Unplugged kitchen" at the WSSD, all the tables,
chairs, and the main serving buildings were made out of recycled "tin" cans.
I believe that many of the world's cans that are now being discarded could
in fact be used to provide essentially free insulative (reflective) thermal
value in simple cook stoves. This can possibly be done with either a metal
or ceramic/brick structural base.

You also said:
3. " why [not] smthg like rockwool instead ?"
This is certainly an approach worth talking more about on this list - and I
don't believe we have talked about lower cost materials. Modern ceramic
kilns in the US use a high priced ceramic version that we have felt was not
affordable in devevloping countries. What is the costof rock wool near you?
Anyone else able to comment? Fiberglass "wool" (as used for residential
insulation in the US) might have a cost-effectiveness - but I don't recall
any report on its use.) It almost always has a paper backing here which
would have to be removed for a stove use.

Sebastien - Thanks for your query, which I hope will raise additional
responses. I aslso hope we hear more on the detailed reasons for your
interest. Ron

From sebastian.lievre at eurocontrol.int Fri Sep 13 04:50:15 2002
From: sebastian.lievre at eurocontrol.int (LIEVRE Sebastian)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: why rock wool ?
Message-ID: <CD4F7F9A2B7DD41194B900508BB0B8DD024BCD54@agnfr02.eurocontrol.fr>

hi ron
thanks for your informations,
i am 33 , 3 childs, working in an ATC research center near paris france.
i am fed up with all our modern world and i am looking for better eating,
sleeping, housing,medical care, child care etc...
Alot of those stuff have already been checked in the past with good results,
i am just trying to unburied them .
That is why, i am looking for a log home, that i will built myself if
possible ( i ve already made a little one) with a compas technique.
i will put some sun panel for hot water, couple with a heavy stone, to
provide the mass , that wood don't have.
That is why i am asking questions, and i have already built a one layer
russian stove, to test my massonnery skills.... good experience, nice and
working.
i am leaving in a not mild cold, and not very hot place.
i don't understand why you are trying to reduce the mass ? mass is making
the long heat output...of course in africa you don't need that...
why do you want insulation, as the second layer should get the heat ??
i don't like rock wood at all, but in that case, it is difficult to find
smthg compressible and unburnable ( english not good may be).
i always think that such mass stove has very good efficiency, you seems to
say the contrary ? am i right ?

thanks for sharing ideas

seb

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Ron Larson [mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net]
Envoyé : vendredi 13 septembre 2002 14:10
À : LIEVRE Sebastian; stoves@crest.org
Objet : RE: why rock wool ?

Sebastien:

You ask a wonderful question - and at the right time. See a few
notes
below as a start. I hope others will join in. Please also tell us more
about yourself and the reasons for your interest in stoves and where you are
living. It would be especially helpful to hear in detail on the present
method of cooking for the area in which you are interested.

You said:
1. "i have a question about mass stove and the expansion layer between the
core
of the stove and the second layer."

RWL: I first should say that most of us on this list are trying to
reduce
the mass - as generally not being an efficient approach to using fuelwood.
There is much emphasis on lightweight, insulative bricks for the inner
wall - which can provide (we hope) sufficient strength but not abosrb and
transmit as much energy into the mass. And with such an approach there is
no need for anything else.
But I think you know this because of the latter part of your
question
calling for an "expansion layer". The rocket stove certainly usually has
this feature with several materials used therein. They have also
extensively used metal for the inner wall.

You also said:
2. "Why couldn't we leave air between the two (about 2cm)?"
RWL: The other large group of stoves list members is using metal
throughout and using multiple layers of metal - as the more layers the more
insulative.
I liked Crispin's design (mentioned about a week ago) so much
because he
had three layers of metal, with air flow between all, gaining a further
efficiency advantage from preheating both primary and secondary air. His
separations are about as you state.
We tend to avoid multiple layers of metal as each costs a bit more.
You
have to be sure that the added pieces provide a fuel saving comensurate with
their costs.
At the GTZ exhibit at the "Unplugged kitchen" at the WSSD, all the
tables,
chairs, and the main serving buildings were made out of recycled "tin" cans.
I believe that many of the world's cans that are now being discarded could
in fact be used to provide essentially free insulative (reflective) thermal
value in simple cook stoves. This can possibly be done with either a metal
or ceramic/brick structural base.

You also said:
3. " why [not] smthg like rockwool instead ?"
This is certainly an approach worth talking more about on this list
- and I
don't believe we have talked about lower cost materials. Modern ceramic
kilns in the US use a high priced ceramic version that we have felt was not
affordable in devevloping countries. What is the costof rock wool near you?
Anyone else able to comment? Fiberglass "wool" (as used for residential
insulation in the US) might have a cost-effectiveness - but I don't recall
any report on its use.) It almost always has a paper backing here which
would have to be removed for a stove use.

Sebastien - Thanks for your query, which I hope will raise additional
responses. I aslso hope we hear more on the detailed reasons for your
interest. Ron

From staywarm at tempcast.com Fri Sep 13 04:58:21 2002
From: staywarm at tempcast.com (John LaGamba)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: why rock wool ?
In-Reply-To: <CD4F7F9A2B7DD41194B900508BB0B8DD024BCD39@agnfr02.eurocontrol.fr>
Message-ID: <OLEPJGLFALCHBLOGBEOFKEBAGCAA.staywarm@tempcast.com>

Hi Sebastian,
As manufactures of thermal mass heaters we do not recommend the use of wool
(ceramic blanket) between the core and the facing as it will inhibit thermal
transfer. Our solution is a simple 1/4" cardboard spacer that will
eventually crumble over time (we have serviced heaters that have been in use
for over 6 years and remarkably it is still in tacked- perhaps due to the
fact that there is no oxygen present as it is tight between core and
facing).
If you leave an air space of 2 cm to deal with the co-efficiency of
expansion difference between the core and facing, you will greatly reduce
the thermal transfer and overall efficiency. Surface temperature will drop
by as much as 50 degrees F resulting in less BTU transfer into living space.

The bottom line is that plain and simple cardboard works with minimal
decrease in thermal transfer.
Regards,

_______________________________________________
John LaGamba
www.tempcast.com
staywarm@tempcast.com
Tel: 416-322-5197, 800-561-8594
Fax: 416-486-3624

-----Original Message-----
From: LIEVRE Sebastian [mailto:sebastian.lievre@eurocontrol.int]
Sent: September 13, 2002 2:16 AM
To: 'stoves@crest.org'
Subject: why rock wool ?

bonjour à tous,

thanks for your advice

sebastien

From tombreed at attbi.com Fri Sep 13 04:59:22 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Fibreglas vs Rockwool vs Kaowool
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEGPCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <000701c25ae5$3402bb00$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear All:

Fibreglas is spun from junk glass for insulation, top temp probably about
400 C.

At
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/safework/cis/products/icsc/dtas
ht/_icsc01/icsc0194.htm

it says...

"Rock wool is an amorphous silicate manufactured from rock. May contain a
binder and an oil for dust suppression."

My impression is that rock wool is manufactured from steel mill slag with a
top hotside temperature of about 700C. Could work for some stove
applications. Was formerly used in the U.S., but I don't see it here.
Still available in EU. Definitely superior to fibreglas.

Kaowool is spun mullite, top temperature about 1400 C. Widely available
around the world, not inherently expensive, but possibly more than RockWool
and fibreglas. Can be made in loose blankets, board and other composites.

~~~~~~~~
The argument that a particular solution can't be used because it costs more
is invalid if the competing solutions don't work.
I have been fighting for fibrous insulation at the stove site for a decade
with little success against mud, but they work.

~~~~
I hope to find out more about ROck Wool from this discussion.

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: "LIEVRE Sebastian" <sebastian.lievre@eurocontrol.int>;
<stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 6:10 AM
Subject: RE: why rock wool ?

> Sebastien:
>
> You ask a wonderful question - and at the right time. See a few notes
> below as a start. I hope others will join in. Please also tell us more
> about yourself and the reasons for your interest in stoves and where you
are
> living. It would be especially helpful to hear in detail on the present
> method of cooking for the area in which you are interested.
>
> You said:
> 1. "i have a question about mass stove and the expansion layer between
the
> core
> of the stove and the second layer."
>
> RWL: I first should say that most of us on this list are trying to reduce
> the mass - as generally not being an efficient approach to using fuelwood.
> There is much emphasis on lightweight, insulative bricks for the inner
> wall - which can provide (we hope) sufficient strength but not abosrb and
> transmit as much energy into the mass. And with such an approach there is
> no need for anything else.
> But I think you know this because of the latter part of your question
> calling for an "expansion layer". The rocket stove certainly usually has
> this feature with several materials used therein. They have also
> extensively used metal for the inner wall.
>
> You also said:
> 2. "Why couldn't we leave air between the two (about 2cm)?"
> RWL: The other large group of stoves list members is using metal
> throughout and using multiple layers of metal - as the more layers the
more
> insulative.
> I liked Crispin's design (mentioned about a week ago) so much because he
> had three layers of metal, with air flow between all, gaining a further
> efficiency advantage from preheating both primary and secondary air. His
> separations are about as you state.
> We tend to avoid multiple layers of metal as each costs a bit more. You
> have to be sure that the added pieces provide a fuel saving comensurate
with
> their costs.
> At the GTZ exhibit at the "Unplugged kitchen" at the WSSD, all the tables,
> chairs, and the main serving buildings were made out of recycled "tin"
cans.
> I believe that many of the world's cans that are now being discarded could
> in fact be used to provide essentially free insulative (reflective)
thermal
> value in simple cook stoves. This can possibly be done with either a
metal
> or ceramic/brick structural base.
>
> You also said:
> 3. " why [not] smthg like rockwool instead ?"
> This is certainly an approach worth talking more about on this list - and
I
> don't believe we have talked about lower cost materials. Modern ceramic
> kilns in the US use a high priced ceramic version that we have felt was
not
> affordable in devevloping countries. What is the costof rock wool near
you?
> Anyone else able to comment? Fiberglass "wool" (as used for residential
> insulation in the US) might have a cost-effectiveness - but I don't recall
> any report on its use.) It almost always has a paper backing here which
> would have to be removed for a stove use.
>
> Sebastien - Thanks for your query, which I hope will raise additional
> responses. I aslso hope we hear more on the detailed reasons for your
> interest. Ron
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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>
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>
>

From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Sep 13 05:27:17 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: why rock wool ?
In-Reply-To: <CD4F7F9A2B7DD41194B900508BB0B8DD024BCD54@agnfr02.eurocontrol.fr>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMEHBCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Sebastian:

1. Thanks for the additional information (not sure what ATC means). I
confess I had mistakenly thought you were interested in cooking-only
stoves - a mistake we make too often on this list. There are many people in
the world using fuel wood for heating (probably then also for cooking) - and
we (at least me) tend to concentrate on the poorer parts of the world -
where too much heat is already a problem (I got interested in stoves from
living in Khartoum, Sudan - which is advertised as being the hottest capital
city in the world) So I hope you will excuse my assumption.

2. You said:

"That is why i am asking questions, and i have already built a one layer
russian stove, to test my massonnery skills.... good experience, nice and
working.
i am leaving in a not mild cold, and not very hot place.
i don't understand why you are trying to reduce the mass ? mass is making
the long heat output...of course in africa you don't need that...
why do you want insulation, as the second layer should get the heat ??"

RWL: Right. But also insulation is needed in much of the so-called
"South" (which is a term we heard a lot at the WSSD). The too-much-heat
problem applies to much (but by no means all) of South and Central America
and to Asia, as well as to Africa.
The purpose of the insulation is to try to get as much of the available
energy after combustion to pass the pot (and then to remove it at that
point) -as I know you know.
Although the second layer can get the heat - it may take a long time to get
there - and may also not be at a usable temperature. On this list, we almos
always thnk of insulation as a means of keeping temperatures high and of
minimizing non-productive loss of energy. Most high mass stoves have no
insulation - or have insulation only to keep the energy in the house.

3. You also said:
"i don't like rock wood at all, but in that case, it is difficult to find
smthg compressible and unburnable ( english not good may be).
i always think that such mass stove has very good efficiency, you seems to
say the contrary ? am i right ?"

RWL: It depends on one's definition of "efficiency". If the energy going
into mass eventually is returned to the residence as useful heat for thermal
comfort, it is certainly appropriate to consider it in the numerator of any
efficiency calculation. Then a thermal mass as part of cooking could be
very appropriate. Again I apologize for jumping to a conclusion. However,
it may also be that one wants to first do the cooking and then try to use
the waste heat for thermal comfort. High mass stoves tend to be harder to
light. These are subjects we rarely dicuss on this list and so I thank you
for bringing up the topic.
In much of the "south", there are many high mass stoves - and they are used
only for cooking - and they are not efficient. That is - much more wood is
consumed for the cooking task than is possible with lighter, more insulative
materials. Many of them also end to have short lifetimes and are, we think,
more polluting than those of a "better" design.
Can you further explain what you don't like about "rock wool"?

Ron

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Sep 13 06:39:52 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <MABBKKNLMCKBBJKBLMGNEEOMCMAA.raywije@eureka.lk>
Message-ID: <20020913143749.GA6689@cybershamanix.com>

On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 08:46:35PM +1000, Peter Verhaart wrote:
> At 07:34 12/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
> > Not so! The ethanol process leaves a very high-protein animal feed,
> >usually
> >marketed under the name of "brewer's grain", so you get just as much food
> >as you
> >would from the original crop.
> > Also see: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html
>
>
> I don't believe it. Ethanol results from the action of yeast on sugars.
> Sugars are food and sugars are consumed in ethanol fermentation.
>
Certainly, but you are forgetting that the yeast grows and remains in the
mash.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From snkm at btl.net Fri Sep 13 07:05:31 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020913205730.009fbcb0@wgs1.btl.net>

> Certainly, but you are forgetting that the yeast grows and remains in the
>mash.
>

Unlike plants -- yeast does not convert solar energy to biomass energy.

The energy of the alcohol is lost from the food value. But you can recover
this by drinking the alcohol!

Further -- it requires more energy to separate the alcohol from the "mash".

All of that said -- I have ordered a small -- 300 lbs per hour -- cane
crusher from India -- along with an old Style Lister diesel -- 6 HP -- 650
RPM -- to operate it.

I live here in Belize surrounded with sugar cane fields -- mind you -- a
failing industry.

but shall have no problems obtaining 300 lbs of fresh cane per day 6 months
of the year from here to eternity.

And though it may be inefficient -- it is the best way I know to keep an
engine turning in a 3rd world environment.

Besides -- it comes with its own thermal fuel for processing -- the bagasse!

As a fuel -- very reliable -- little wear and tear -- perfect clean source
of energy. As it contains no after effect (combustion) acids etc -- one can
use a good vegetable oil (coconut oil) as lubricant in the engine itself.

80% "Rum" -- I have a 1981 Brazilian made Volks Rabbit -- those engines at
that time were build to operate on alcohol. Special valves -- etc. Just
need change the jet in Carb.

50 kw easy if I need it.

Besides -- If the world does decide to blow itself up -- maybe I'll
contemplate that event well tranquilized on this same fuel.

By the way folks -- if memory serves me right -- 3% alcohol solution
(water) is one of the perfect fuels for the human body. And was applied
intravenously in this manner -- along with lipids -- protein -- etc -- to
sustain life in the seriously invalid.

The Url for cane grinder etc --

http://www.rajeximp.com/products/sc.html

Eat your hearts out!!

Peter Singfield

Hiding out for the duration in Belize -- as ever --

At 09:37 AM 9/13/2002 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 08:46:35PM +1000, Peter Verhaart wrote:
>> At 07:34 12/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> > Not so! The ethanol process leaves a very high-protein animal feed,
>> >usually
>> >marketed under the name of "brewer's grain", so you get just as much food
>> >as you
>> >would from the original crop.
>> > Also see: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html
>>
>>
>> I don't believe it. Ethanol results from the action of yeast on sugars.
>> Sugars are food and sugars are consumed in ethanol fermentation.
>>
> Certainly, but you are forgetting that the yeast grows and remains in the
>mash.
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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>>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Fri Sep 13 07:14:35 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020913205730.009fbcb0@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDAEEGEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Gel Fuel
>
>
>
> By the way folks -- if memory serves me right -- 3% alcohol solution
> (water) is one of the perfect fuels for the human body. And was applied
> intravenously in this manner -- along with lipids -- protein -- etc -- to
> sustain life in the seriously invalid.
>

3% alcohol solution - it's called beer. My students certainly subscribe to
the belief that it is the perfect fuel and that little else is needed to
sustain life. I'm not sure that they use it intravenously, but I'm sure
they'd try it if I suggest.

- Bryan Willson

From snkm at btl.net Fri Sep 13 07:28:24 2002
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020913212015.009fd580@wgs1.btl.net>

>3% alcohol solution - it's called beer.

In the US -- here it is 6.5%

Actually -- "beer" is the perfect food for humans -- ask the ancient
Egyptians!

It fueled them for many of thousands of years -- at 3% and "less" alcohol.

But not mass produced -- chemically "encouraged" beer -- fresh -- natural
brewed -- beer!

It was also the perfect food for many Europeans --

Which then brings us to wine.

Consumed mostly in ancient times -- diluted to 3% or less -- and was drank
as water -- that is to keep fluid levels in the proper range.

when "thirsty" -- drink "diluted" wine -- not water.

When a special occasion comes along -- they drank the wine "pure" and
became inebriated as a result.

Again -- natural wines --

A great natural wine can be made from simply boiling chopped up sugar cane
plant and then letting the liquor so produced ferment.

Called by the ancients around here (Maya) "Balche" --

It self ferments when cooled -- and is a very rich food supplement --
though again -- should be diluted to 3% or less.

So yes -- ethanol is rather the perfect "fuel" -- for engine and human!

I raise pigs and chickens/eggs for the house table here -- the expended
mash will be used for their feed.

Waste not -- want not -- and all of that.

Peter / Belize

At 09:12 AM 9/13/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
> > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: Gel Fuel
> >
> >
> >
> > By the way folks -- if memory serves me right -- 3% alcohol solution
> > (water) is one of the perfect fuels for the human body. And was applied
> > intravenously in this manner -- along with lipids -- protein -- etc -- to
> > sustain life in the seriously invalid.
> >
>
>3% alcohol solution - it's called beer. My students certainly subscribe to
>the belief that it is the perfect fuel and that little else is needed to
>sustain life. I'm not sure that they use it intravenously, but I'm sure
>they'd try it if I suggest.
>
>
> - Bryan Willson
>
> Dr. Bryan Willson
> Professor of Mechanical Engineering
> Research Director, Engines & Energy Conversion Laboratory
> Department of Mechanical Engineering
> Colorado State University
> Fort Collins, Colorado 80523-1374
> Phone: (970)-491-4783
> Mobile: (970)-227-5164
> FAX: (970)-491-4799
> EECL Web Site: www.engr.colostate.edu\EECL
>
>

From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Fri Sep 13 15:15:24 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDAEEGEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDEEFFEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

We will be running another batch of FTIR emissions tests on Monday on a
rocket stove. I was going to use the opportunity to measure the aldehyde
emissions from gel fuel. Several people have mentioned Sterno, but it just
occurred to me that Sterno is probably gel methanol.

Does anyone know for sure what Sterno is made of?

Does anyone know of any commercial gel ethanol products which are
distributed widely in the U.S.?

- Bryan Willson

From hotspringfreak at hotmail.com Fri Sep 13 20:52:54 2002
From: hotspringfreak at hotmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gell Fuel
Message-ID: <OE35mDzYbB1t93Lx9w500001015@hotmail.com>

There's a gelled ethanol fuel "recipe" on a page at "WINGS - The Homemade Stove
Archives" - specifically, at:

http://wings.interfree.it/html/Gelalcohol.html

Anyone know where I can get some Calcium Acetate to try this?

Bon appetite!

- Chris Smith

> We will be running another batch of FTIR emissions tests on Monday on a
> rocket stove. I was going to use the opportunity to measure the aldehyde
> emissions from gel fuel. Several people have mentioned Sterno, but it just
> occurred to me that Sterno is probably gel methanol.
>
> Does anyone know for sure what Sterno is made of?
>
> Does anyone know of any commercial gel ethanol products which are
> distributed widely in the U.S.?
>
> - Bryan Willson

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Sat Sep 14 02:28:48 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gell Fuel
In-Reply-To: <OE35mDzYbB1t93Lx9w500001015@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D830EC8.B56781D5@ca.inter.net>

Dear Chris (or others)

Gelling with Calcium Acetate looks very interesting!! I
have some questions:

1: What is the permissible range of alcohol
concentrations to permit gelling?

For example, could it gell a weak beer at say 3%
ethanol, OR should it be a minimum of wine strength at
10%, OR should it be "store liquor concentration of
about 40%, OR "pot still likker" at about 50% to 60%,
or "strong rum" at say 80%, OR 95% alcohol?

2: Does the Calcium acetate get destroyed in the
burning process, OR could it be "re-constituted" after
the alcohol is burned off?

Thanks very much!!

Kevin Chisholm

Chris Smith wrote:
>
> There's a gelled ethanol fuel "recipe" on a page at "WINGS - The Homemade Stove
> Archives" - specifically, at:
>
> http://wings.interfree.it/html/Gelalcohol.html
>
> Anyone know where I can get some Calcium Acetate to try this?
>
> Bon appetite!
>
> - Chris Smith
>
> > We will be running another batch of FTIR emissions tests on Monday on a
> > rocket stove. I was going to use the opportunity to measure the aldehyde
> > emissions from gel fuel. Several people have mentioned Sterno, but it just
> > occurred to me that Sterno is probably gel methanol.
> >
> > Does anyone know for sure what Sterno is made of?
> >
> > Does anyone know of any commercial gel ethanol products which are
> > distributed widely in the U.S.?
> >
> > - Bryan Willson
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
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> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Sat Sep 14 03:55:43 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020913204450.00a5ee30@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020914215308.00a64a70@localhost>

At 09:37 13/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 08:46:35PM +1000, Peter Verhaart wrote:
> > At 07:34 12/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> > > Not so! The ethanol process leaves a very high-protein animal feed,
> > >usually
> > >marketed under the name of "brewer's grain", so you get just as much food
> > >as you
> > >would from the original crop.
> > > Also see: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html
> >
> >
> > I don't believe it. Ethanol results from the action of yeast on sugars.
> > Sugars are food and sugars are consumed in ethanol fermentation.
> >
> Certainly, but you are forgetting that the yeast grows and remains in the
>mash.

Even so, all glucose (and other sugars) that have been converted to ethanol
reduce the original mutrient content.

Peter Verhaart

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Sep 14 03:58:06 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gelling fuel with calcium acetate
In-Reply-To: <OE35mDzYbB1t93Lx9w500001015@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c25be7$4d76cec0$2a47fea9@md>

Dear All

Kevin asks:

"For example, could it gell a weak beer at say 3%
ethanol, OR should it be a minimum of wine strength at
10%, OR should it be "store liquor concentration of
about 40%, OR "pot still likker" at about 50% to 60%,
or "strong rum" at say 80%, OR 95% alcohol?"

Of course other drinks immediately come to mind: Newfie Screech from
Newfoundland, Mampoer and Witblitz from South Africa to mention a few. I
hear that last night 5 or 6 people died in RSA drinking something that had
so much alcohol they got acute poisoning.

Here in Swaziland we have something caled Pikiliyeza which is a blend of a
small amount of traditional sorghum brew, lots of home-brewed sugarcane
alcohol, a few spices and a liberal dose of battery acid (I am not
kidding). The name roughly means "The pick-axe is coming for your head". I
am pretty sure it would gell. Another local candidate translates as "Doors
to the mortuary".

The guy who sells me diesel sells 600 litres of battery acid a month to the
local brewing industry in Manzini.

Regards
Crispin the abstainer

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Sat Sep 14 04:32:31 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Acid and Homely Likker Was: Re: Gelling fuel with calcium acetate
In-Reply-To: <OE35mDzYbB1t93Lx9w500001015@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D832BC1.6B1D0C18@ca.inter.net>

Dear Crispin

Thanks for your interesting backgrounder!!

Newfie Screech is "store liquor" and is quite safe to
drink... it is an average grade of Black Rum. It runs
40% Alcohol....

Pot still likker.... moonshine.... can be very
dangerous stuff; perhaps it is called "moonshine"
because some of it will ensure that you never see teh
light of day again!! Shine from potatoes is apparently
particularily bad, because apparently, it ferments out
to yield a relatively high percentage of methanol..

Would anyone with a brewing background know why
sulphuric acid is used in teh brewing industry? What is
it intended to accomplish?

...del...
> Here in Swaziland we have something caled Pikiliyeza which is a blend of a
> small amount of traditional sorghum brew, lots of home-brewed sugarcane
> alcohol, a few spices and a liberal dose of battery acid (I am not
> kidding). The name roughly means "The pick-axe is coming for your head". I
> am pretty sure it would gell. Another local candidate translates as "Doors
> to the mortuary".
>
> The guy who sells me diesel sells 600 litres of battery acid a month to the
> local brewing industry in Manzini.
>
> Regards
> Crispin the abstainer

KIndest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Sep 14 05:23:05 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Acid and Homely Likker Was: Re: Gelling fuel with calcium acetate
In-Reply-To: <OE35mDzYbB1t93Lx9w500001015@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020914132009.GA7771@cybershamanix.com>

Gee, an awful lot of misinformation about alcohol going around here. High
proof ethanol is not deadly, in fact when I was a student we used to drink lab
alcohol (100% or 200 proof) ethanol. Pretty common among students, at least
those who have access to labs. Of course even scotch or vodka, whatever, can
kill you if you drink enough in a short time. Potatoes, btw, don't ferment into
methanol -- nothing does. Potatoes are what vodka is made from.
Having grown up in moonshine country, I can assure you that most of it, at
least here in the US, is pretty good stuff. Moonshiners who add acid or other
things like hot pepper really do so because the alchohol content of their
product is too low and they need something to make it taste strong.
The term moonshine comes from the fact that it was often made at night so no one
could see the smoke. Here in the US you will sometimes find bootleg alcohol
being sold in regular stores or bars in name brand bottles with counterfit tax
stamps. Many people can't tell the difference, but I well recall stopping in a
small town bar and ordering a shot of tequila -- it was pure corn whiskey! Good
quality corn, but corn nonetheless. When I was a kid, the local sheriff used to
bring my dad gallon jugs of the best quality stuff they had seized in raids, a
lot of bootleggers have a real pride of craftsmanship.

On Sat, Sep 14, 2002 at 09:29:53AM -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> Dear Crispin
>
> Thanks for your interesting backgrounder!!
>
> Newfie Screech is "store liquor" and is quite safe to
> drink... it is an average grade of Black Rum. It runs
> 40% Alcohol....
>
> Pot still likker.... moonshine.... can be very
> dangerous stuff; perhaps it is called "moonshine"
> because some of it will ensure that you never see teh
> light of day again!! Shine from potatoes is apparently
> particularily bad, because apparently, it ferments out
> to yield a relatively high percentage of methanol..
>
> Would anyone with a brewing background know why
> sulphuric acid is used in teh brewing industry? What is
> it intended to accomplish?
>
> ...del...
> > Here in Swaziland we have something caled Pikiliyeza which is a blend of a
> > small amount of traditional sorghum brew, lots of home-brewed sugarcane
> > alcohol, a few spices and a liberal dose of battery acid (I am not
> > kidding). The name roughly means "The pick-axe is coming for your head". I
> > am pretty sure it would gell. Another local candidate translates as "Doors
> > to the mortuary".
> >
> > The guy who sells me diesel sells 600 litres of battery acid a month to the
> > local brewing industry in Manzini.
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin the abstainer
>
> KIndest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Sep 14 06:04:15 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020913204450.00a5ee30@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020914140211.GB7771@cybershamanix.com>

On Sat, Sep 14, 2002 at 09:54:35PM +1000, Peter Verhaart wrote:
> At 09:37 13/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 08:46:35PM +1000, Peter Verhaart wrote:
> >> At 07:34 12/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >>
> >> > Not so! The ethanol process leaves a very high-protein animal feed,
> >> >usually
> >> >marketed under the name of "brewer's grain", so you get just as much
> >food
> >> >as you
> >> >would from the original crop.
> >> > Also see: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't believe it. Ethanol results from the action of yeast on sugars.
> >> Sugars are food and sugars are consumed in ethanol fermentation.
> >>
> > Certainly, but you are forgetting that the yeast grows and remains in
> > the
> >mash.
>
> Even so, all glucose (and other sugars) that have been converted to ethanol
> reduce the original mutrient content.
>

"In any event, with most biofuels you remove the energy and are still left with
the food -- or "feed" more often (for livestock). With ethanol the feed value is
enhanced: the distillers dried grains by-product is more nutritious than the
original unprocessed grain (because of the yeast)."
From http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From woolsey at netins.net Sat Sep 14 07:22:29 2002
From: woolsey at netins.net (Edward Woolsey)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020913212015.009fd580@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <008601c25c02$a25eb180$2b168ea7@ed>

High Stovers:

A couple of comments: 1) Food vs. Fuel ....The worlds population tends to
be short on protein, not starch ...converting starch to ethanol tends to
concentrate the protein 3 fold, hopefully making it easier to move our
Midwest corn production from the red meat industry into the export human
food market.
2) We in the Midwest have the saying ...."Drink the best ..Drive the rest".
:)

Ed Woolsey
Iowa

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 9:22 PM
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: RE: Gel Fuel

>3% alcohol solution - it's called beer.

In the US -- here it is 6.5%

Actually -- "beer" is the perfect food for humans -- ask the ancient
Egyptians!

It fueled them for many of thousands of years -- at 3% and "less" alcohol.

But not mass produced -- chemically "encouraged" beer -- fresh -- natural
brewed -- beer!

It was also the perfect food for many Europeans --

Which then brings us to wine.

Consumed mostly in ancient times -- diluted to 3% or less -- and was drank
as water -- that is to keep fluid levels in the proper range.

when "thirsty" -- drink "diluted" wine -- not water.

When a special occasion comes along -- they drank the wine "pure" and
became inebriated as a result.

Again -- natural wines --

A great natural wine can be made from simply boiling chopped up sugar cane
plant and then letting the liquor so produced ferment.

Called by the ancients around here (Maya) "Balche" --

It self ferments when cooled -- and is a very rich food supplement --
though again -- should be diluted to 3% or less.

So yes -- ethanol is rather the perfect "fuel" -- for engine and human!

I raise pigs and chickens/eggs for the house table here -- the expended
mash will be used for their feed.

Waste not -- want not -- and all of that.

Peter / Belize

At 09:12 AM 9/13/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Peter Singfield [mailto:snkm@btl.net]
> > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: Gel Fuel
> >
> >
> >
> > By the way folks -- if memory serves me right -- 3% alcohol solution
> > (water) is one of the perfect fuels for the human body. And was applied
> > intravenously in this manner -- along with lipids -- protein -- etc --
to
> > sustain life in the seriously invalid.
> >
>
>3% alcohol solution - it's called beer. My students certainly subscribe to
>the belief that it is the perfect fuel and that little else is needed to
>sustain life. I'm not sure that they use it intravenously, but I'm sure
>they'd try it if I suggest.
>
>
> - Bryan Willson
>
> Dr. Bryan Willson
> Professor of Mechanical Engineering
> Research Director, Engines & Energy Conversion Laboratory
> Department of Mechanical Engineering
> Colorado State University
> Fort Collins, Colorado 80523-1374
> Phone: (970)-491-4783
> Mobile: (970)-227-5164
> FAX: (970)-491-4799
> EECL Web Site: www.engr.colostate.edu\EECL
>
>

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Sat Sep 14 09:21:12 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Acid and Homely Likker Was: Re: Gelling fuel with calcium acetate
In-Reply-To: <OE35mDzYbB1t93Lx9w500001015@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D836F5F.E49A86E5@ca.inter.net>

Dear Harmon

Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> Gee, an awful lot of misinformation about alcohol going around here.

There sure is!!

High
> proof ethanol is not deadly, in fact when I was a student we used to drink lab
> alcohol (100% or 200 proof) ethanol.

High proof alcohol is deadly. If you drink it as high
proof alcohol. Most people safely drink it with a
mixer.

Pretty common among students, at least
> those who have access to labs. Of course even scotch or vodka, whatever, can
> kill you if you drink enough in a short time. Potatoes, btw, don't ferment into
> methanol -- nothing does.

Side reactions in teh fermenting process when methanol
is involved do indeed produce methanol. And lots of
other baddies. They are collectively termed "fusel
oils" and this is what ageing in charcoaled barrels
removes.

Potatoes are what vodka is made from.

It can be made from potatoes. It is also made from
grain. It is safe because it is "ftractionally
distilled, so that the "baddies" are perfectly
separated from the "goodies."

> Having grown up in moonshine country, I can assure you that most of it, at
> least here in the US, is pretty good stuff. Moonshiners who add acid or other
> things like hot pepper really do so because the alchohol content of their
> product is too low and they need something to make it taste strong.

If they add acids and stuff, then they certainly are
not making very good stuff.

> The term moonshine comes from the fact that it was often made at night so no one
> could see the smoke. Here in the US you will sometimes find bootleg alcohol
> being sold in regular stores or bars in name brand bottles with counterfit tax
> stamps. Many people can't tell the difference, but I well recall stopping in a
> small town bar and ordering a shot of tequila -- it was pure corn whiskey! Good
> quality corn, but corn nonetheless.

If you can tell that it was corn liquor, then it was
distilled in a pot still. This is not necessarily good
shine.... if the corn liquor taste components were
present, who knows what other components were present??

When I was a kid, the local sheriff used to
> bring my dad gallon jugs of the best quality stuff they had seized in raids, a
> lot of bootleggers have a real pride of craftsmanship.

They may have had pride in craftsmanship, but with pot
stills, they are stilling with one hand tied behind
their backs.

Does anyone know trhe real reason why acid is added to
liquor in therefining process?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
>

From keith at journeytoforever.org Sat Sep 14 12:17:02 2002
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:07 2004
Subject: Acid and Homely Likker Was: Re: Gelling fuel with calciumacetate
In-Reply-To: <OE35mDzYbB1t93Lx9w500001015@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <v0421014eb9a92ad040ea@[192.168.0.2]>

Hello Kevin, Harmon and all

<snip>

>Does anyone know trhe real reason why acid is added to
>liquor in therefining process?

It's added to the mash to control the pH during fermentation. But I'd
always heard the "shebeen queens" in Southern Africa added battery
acid to the product as well. Interesting how that old Irish word
shebeen (a place where you buy illicit liquor) is ubiquitous in South
Africa, though maybe most whites don't know the word. The product was
usually called Barberton, or ai-ai (the noise you made when you drank
it). I'm pleased to learn the newer terms from Swaziland. It kills
quite a lot of people, in Africa and elsewhere, South Asia, East
Asia, Southeast Asia, I'm sure Latin America too. It is apparently
the methanol that does the killing. Tony Ackland's Distillers FAQ
says methanol "can be present in small amounts when fermenting
grains or fruits high in pectin. The methanol comes off first from
the still, so it is easily segregated and discarded. A simple rule of
thumb for this is to throw away the first 50 mL you collect (per 20 L
mash used)." I think it takes a couple of tablespoons of methanol to
kill you (about 30 ml). Twenty litres of mash will give about 3
litres of 95% alcohol, diluted to 40% or 50% before drinking, thus 50
ml methanol in six litres - drinking one litre would be quite a feat,
that's only 8 ml of methanol. I'm sure they use pot stills rather
than reflux stills (certainly not fractional stills), which would
give about 50% alcohol with probably the same amount of methanol. So
I don't quite see where lethal doses of methanol come from - unless
it's some horrible cocktail of methanol, all the fusel oils too,
acetic acid (from wrong fermentation) and battery acid that does it.

Anyway, we tend to think this is one good reason for introducing
ethanol fuel in Third World rural areas, where otherwise appropriate.
People have said we'd be causing widespread drunkenness, but I think
that's nonsense - you'd probably be hard put to find a rural area not
already served by a shebeen of some kind. Have a look at this setup
in Indoneseia for instance:
http://www.manalagi.com/jamesplace/indonesia/sopi/index.html

More likely we'd be able to improve the local technology and maybe
save a few lives. Maybe even a lot of lives - some of these moonshine
disasters kill scores of people at a time. An entire wedding party
got wiped out in Madagascar not long ago.

Also, you can't drink 100% ethanol, it's much too strong - you
must've diluted it Harmon. We've just been discussing this on the
Biofuel list.

> > This is true; drinking concentrated alcohol (such as straight out of a
> > still) is a good way to burn your throat, since it will pull water right
> > out of the cells lining the throat.
>
>Sure will. Worked in a pharmaceutical/vetinary products QC lab for a while.
>Parbendezole was used in Worm Guard products. To analyse the stuff it was
>dissolved in a solution of 2% HCl in Absolute Ethanol.
>One day sucked a bit too hard on pipette whilst doing dilutions and half
>filled mouth with alcohol mix. Spat it out awful quick and rinsed mouth with
>water.
>That night the inner layer of skin from my mouth peeled away in one piece
>whilst I was eating.
>Fun times.

I'm sure that was much more due to the ethanol than the 2% HCl.

Best wishes

Keith

>Kindest regards,
>
>Kevin Chisholm

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Sep 14 12:24:01 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Acid and Homely Likker Was: Re: Gelling fuel with calcium acetate
In-Reply-To: <OE35mDzYbB1t93Lx9w500001015@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020914202112.GA8291@cybershamanix.com>

On Sat, Sep 14, 2002 at 02:18:23PM -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> > proof ethanol is not deadly, in fact when I was a student we used to drink lab
> > alcohol (100% or 200 proof) ethanol.
>
> High proof alcohol is deadly. If you drink it as high
> proof alcohol. Most people safely drink it with a
> mixer.

Of course they drink it with a mixer, just as most people drink vodka with a
mixer. Pure ethanol is no more deadly than lower proof commercial whiskey,
vodka, etc. It's the amount you drink and how quickly you drink it. A 5th of
Jack Daniels will kill you quite easily if you drink it fast enough.

>
> Pretty common among students, at least
> > those who have access to labs. Of course even scotch or vodka, whatever, can
> > kill you if you drink enough in a short time. Potatoes, btw, don't ferment into
> > methanol -- nothing does.
>
> Side reactions in teh fermenting process when methanol
> is involved do indeed produce methanol. And lots of
> other baddies. They are collectively termed "fusel
> oils" and this is what ageing in charcoaled barrels
> removes.

Okay, tiny amounts of methanol, but humans have survived countless
generations of drinking booze distilled in pot stills and without charcoal
aging.

>
> Potatoes are what vodka is made from.
>
> It can be made from potatoes. It is also made from
> grain. It is safe because it is "ftractionally
> distilled, so that the "baddies" are perfectly
> separated from the "goodies."
>
Hardly. Vodka was made from potatoes for hundreds, if not thousands of years
before fractional stills came about.

> > Having grown up in moonshine country, I can assure you that most of it, at
> > least here in the US, is pretty good stuff. Moonshiners who add acid or other
> > things like hot pepper really do so because the alchohol content of their
> > product is too low and they need something to make it taste strong.
>
> If they add acids and stuff, then they certainly are
> not making very good stuff.
>
I don't think you'll find anyone adding acid to moonshine in the US. That,
and things like strychnine, is added in areas where the market composed of
extremely poor and largely uneducated people. Back 100-150 years ago it was sold
to Native Americans, but I doubt it would go over well here now. That's not to
say that all the moonshine made in the US is top rate -- I recently was served a
glass of "Jack Daniels" on the rocks that was definitely not. Not Jack Daniels
and not high quality whiskey.

> > The term moonshine comes from the fact that it was often made at night so no one
> > could see the smoke. Here in the US you will sometimes find bootleg alcohol
> > being sold in regular stores or bars in name brand bottles with counterfit tax
> > stamps. Many people can't tell the difference, but I well recall stopping in a
> > small town bar and ordering a shot of tequila -- it was pure corn whiskey! Good
> > quality corn, but corn nonetheless.
>
> If you can tell that it was corn liquor, then it was
> distilled in a pot still. This is not necessarily good
> shine.... if the corn liquor taste components were
> present, who knows what other components were present??
>
> When I was a kid, the local sheriff used to
> > bring my dad gallon jugs of the best quality stuff they had seized in raids, a
> > lot of bootleggers have a real pride of craftsmanship.
>
> They may have had pride in craftsmanship, but with pot
> stills, they are stilling with one hand tied behind
> their backs.

I think you'd be surprised at the degree of sophistication among moonshiners
in the US.
>
> Does anyone know trhe real reason why acid is added to
> liquor in therefining process?
>
I'm sure it's simply to add a strong taste to weak brew. Many things have
been used the same way -- large amounts of tobacco, cayene pepper, etc. And then
other adulterants which actually cause an effect, like strychnine, datura seeds,
and the like.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Sep 14 12:37:31 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Acid and Homely Likker Was: Re: Gelling fuel with calcium acetate
In-Reply-To: <OE35mDzYbB1t93Lx9w500001015@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020914203530.GB8291@cybershamanix.com>

On Sun, Sep 15, 2002 at 05:13:02AM +0900, Keith Addison wrote:
> Hello Kevin, Harmon and all
>
> <snip>
>
> >Does anyone know trhe real reason why acid is added to
> >liquor in therefining process?
>
> It's added to the mash to control the pH during fermentation. But I'd

Well, yes, theres that, I was assuming that they were talking about adding it
to the final product.

> always heard the "shebeen queens" in Southern Africa added battery
> acid to the product as well. Interesting how that old Irish word
> shebeen (a place where you buy illicit liquor) is ubiquitous in South
> Africa, though maybe most whites don't know the word. The product was
> usually called Barberton, or ai-ai (the noise you made when you drank
> it). I'm pleased to learn the newer terms from Swaziland. It kills
> quite a lot of people, in Africa and elsewhere, South Asia, East
> Asia, Southeast Asia, I'm sure Latin America too. It is apparently
> the methanol that does the killing.

There are also many cases of methanol, dentured ethanol, or even ethelyne
glycol (anti-freeze) being sold as booze. Anti-freeze supposedly tastes quite
good, in fact. I know animals love it.

> Tony Ackland's Distillers FAQ
> says methanol "can be present in small amounts when fermenting
> grains or fruits high in pectin. The methanol comes off first from
> the still, so it is easily segregated and discarded. A simple rule of
> thumb for this is to throw away the first 50 mL you collect (per 20 L
> mash used)." I think it takes a couple of tablespoons of methanol to
> kill you (about 30 ml). Twenty litres of mash will give about 3
> litres of 95% alcohol, diluted to 40% or 50% before drinking, thus 50
> ml methanol in six litres - drinking one litre would be quite a feat,
> that's only 8 ml of methanol. I'm sure they use pot stills rather
> than reflux stills (certainly not fractional stills), which would
> give about 50% alcohol with probably the same amount of methanol. So
> I don't quite see where lethal doses of methanol come from - unless
> it's some horrible cocktail of methanol, all the fusel oils too,
> acetic acid (from wrong fermentation) and battery acid that does it.
>
> Anyway, we tend to think this is one good reason for introducing
> ethanol fuel in Third World rural areas, where otherwise appropriate.
> People have said we'd be causing widespread drunkenness, but I think
> that's nonsense - you'd probably be hard put to find a rural area not
> already served by a shebeen of some kind. Have a look at this setup
> in Indoneseia for instance:
> http://www.manalagi.com/jamesplace/indonesia/sopi/index.html
>
> More likely we'd be able to improve the local technology and maybe
> save a few lives. Maybe even a lot of lives - some of these moonshine
> disasters kill scores of people at a time. An entire wedding party
> got wiped out in Madagascar not long ago.
>
> Also, you can't drink 100% ethanol, it's much too strong - you
> must've diluted it Harmon.

Oh, of course, you couldn't get it down without diluting it. And yes, I can
recall burning my mouth on the pure stuff. But the point was that it isn't
likely anyone is dying from too high a proof alcohol. In fact recently there
have been a number of cases of college students dying from too much alcohol, and
not because of high proof, just too much in a short time. Chugalugging.
OTOH, it's rather amazing how much some people can hold. I have a dear old
friend who was long in the habit of buying a dozen bottles of vokda at a time,
going home and sitting down drinking them more or less non-stop until they were
gone. I say non-stop, but there were periods of passing out for awhile, so it
was more like 2 or 3 days.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Carefreeland at aol.com Sat Sep 14 19:02:51 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Acid and Homely Likker Was: Re: Gelling fuel with calcium acetate
Message-ID: <83.20b1ed65.2ab551cc@aol.com>

>> Dan's comments

> They may have had pride in craftsmanship, but with pot
> stills, they are stilling with one hand tied behind
> their backs.

I think you'd be surprised at the degree of sophistication among moonshiners
in the US.
Harmon Seaver

> I had my first taste of genuine Kentucky corn sippin' whisky some time ago. A cousin of a close friend provided it. This was some of the finest beverage I have consumed to this day. It is in such demand, that you only obtain the finest through close friends and realitives.
>There is almost no taste at all, with the slightest sweet aftertaste of corn syrup.
The proof is slightly less than pure ethanol, and you wouldn't want any other taste in your mouth with it. There is no hangover or aftereffects, other than a pleasent nights sleep.
> With quality this good, not much ends up into the gas tank or as cooking fuel. There is a moonshine festival in a small Ohio town east of Columbus, but I have yet to make the trip. I am a man of extreme moderation, but appriciate fine work in a bottle.
>Much fine wine, beer, and whisky is produced within a few hundred miles radius of here for a global market, both legal and illegal. Most of it is produced by masters of the trade who have perfected over generations. Anyone producing dangerous product would quickly dissapear from the market before reputation was tarnished. The batches that don't meet highest spec. are often re-distilled and sold as motor fuel additive, or dumped. The possibility of converting some of this to cooking fuel exists.
> I once had a worker who had been in the Army. During a party after basic training, a friend of his downed a bottle of Jack Daniels straight. He walked into the restroom and never walked again. The negative effects of ethanol consumption are multiplied by the speed, quantity, and frequency with which it is consumed.

Daniel Dimiduk

From thomas.stubbing at heat-win.co.uk Sat Sep 14 23:10:54 2002
From: thomas.stubbing at heat-win.co.uk (Thomas Stubbing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fw: RETORT FOR CARBONISING COCONUT SHELLS - REG.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020915024935.00a02b90@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <3D8432A4.AE7C875@heat-win.co.uk>

Dear Peter, Tom, Ibrahim et al:
Peter Singfield wrote in reply to Ibrahim's message as forwarded by
Tom Miles at 12:33 PM on 9/14/2002(snips):
Dear Tom and Ibrahim;
You have complete information in regards to this topic at:
http://coconutboard.nic.in/charcoal.htm
Have appended the Text of this WWW sight --
I see you are from India -- and India has the best "deal" on this
technology for a fraction of the cost of equivalent systems designed
and
made in the modern industrial nations.
Apart from those nations' higher labour and social security costs, the
main reason for their equipment being so expensive is that it must satisfy
stringent emissions and safety regulations. I live and work in the
UK and am designing those systems, so I know!

Below is the complete information you seek -- including prices in "lakhs"???
One favor I ask -- how does one translate those prices into US dollar?
I think "Lakh" probably stands for "Rupee". If so today's exhange
rate is around 48 lakhs/US$.

Peter Singfield -- Belize
*********************appended**************
COCONUT DEVELOPEMNT BOARD, INDIA
Project Profile
Coconut Shell Charcoal*
Introduction
..............................Now several modern methods are in vogue
for the
production of charcoal. In the modern waste heat recovery unit the
heat
generated by the burning of coconut shells is used for drying copra
and
shell charcoal is obtained as by-product.
The burning of a small proportion of the coconut shells in the retort provides
the heat to carbonise the remainder, which in turn produces toxic, combustible
pyrolysis gases. It is the burning of those gases which provides
the heat for drying copra, but if the pyrolysis gases are not fully combusted,
i.e. smoke is emitted to atmosphere, pollution is occurring and adding
to the brown cloud now permanently covering much of southern Asia.
A simple and efficient method
adopted for the production of charcoal on cottage scale is given below.
Process (Drum Method)
A M.S. Drum kiln is used for carbonization of shells. The drum consists
of
three sets of six 1" dia holes provided at its bottom, middle and upper
layers and a lid. A detachable chimney is provided which is installed
on
the lid after closing the drum. The manufacture of charcoal requires
optimum carbonization of raw shells in a limited supply of air so that
there is neither unburnt shell nor ash due to complete combustion.
The steel drum is filled with raw shells after placing temporarily a
four
inch diameter wooden pole in the centre of the drum. The wooden pole
is
then removed, leaving a hollow space in the centre, which allows the
flow
of smoke during carbonization.
Unless that smoke is fully combusted as it exits the detachable chimney
it will add to the brown cloud referred to above.
An increasing number of us who live in "the modern industrial nations"
realise that pollution anywhere in the world is a shared problem and that
helping internationally to increase the use of 'clean' and efficient equipment,
whether stoves or charcoal making retorts, is in our long term interest
as well as that of the billions in other countries who at present cannot
afford it and whose health is now suffering as a result.
It will take a long time, but we have no choice but to get there in
the end.
Regards,
Thomas J Stubbing
P.S. I am no longer a <bioenergy@crest.org> or <gasification@crest.org>
member, so if the Stoves Moderator thinks it appropriate I would ask him
to forward this message to those lists.

From koopmans at loxinfo.co.th Sat Sep 14 23:58:15 2002
From: koopmans at loxinfo.co.th (Auke Koopmans)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fw: RETORT FOR CARBONISING COCONUT SHELLS - REG.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020915024935.00a02b90@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <017001c25c8d$dc6bed80$6d8a92cb@xxxx>

A "lakh" is a typical unit used a.o. in the Indian sub-continent and is
equal to 100,000 if I am not mistaken. A "crore" is sometimes also used
which as far as I know equals 10 million (mainly some of our Indian friends
can enlighten us).

Auke Koopmans

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Stubbing" <thomas.stubbing@heat-win.co.uk>
To: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@btl.net>
Cc: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com>; <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: 15 September 2002 14:11
Subject: Re: GAS-L: Fw: RETORT FOR CARBONISING COCONUT SHELLS - REG.

> Dear Peter, Tom, Ibrahim et al:
>
> Peter Singfield wrote in reply to Ibrahim's message as forwarded by Tom
Miles at
> 12:33 PM on 9/14/2002(snips):
>
> > Dear Tom and Ibrahim;
> >
> > You have complete information in regards to this topic at:
> >
> > http://coconutboard.nic.in/charcoal.htm
> >
> > Have appended the Text of this WWW sight --
> >
> > I see you are from India -- and India has the best "deal" on this
> > technology for a fraction of the cost of equivalent systems designed and
> > made in the modern industrial nations.
>
> Apart from those nations' higher labour and social security costs, the
main
> reason for their equipment being so expensive is that it must satisfy
stringent
> emissions and safety regulations. I live and work in the UK and am
designing
> those systems, so I know!
>
> >
> > Below is the complete information you seek -- including prices in
"lakhs"???
> >
> > One favor I ask -- how does one translate those prices into US dollar?
>
> I think "Lakh" probably stands for "Rupee". If so today's exhange rate is
> around 48 lakhs/US$.
>
> >
> >
> > Peter Singfield -- Belize
> >
> > *********************appended**************
> >
> > COCONUT DEVELOPEMNT BOARD, INDIA
> >
> > Project Profile
> >
> > Coconut Shell Charcoal*
> >
> > Introduction
> >
> > ..............................Now several modern methods are in vogue
for the
> > production of charcoal. In the modern waste heat recovery unit the heat
> > generated by the burning of coconut shells is used for drying copra and
> > shell charcoal is obtained as by-product.
>
> The burning of a small proportion of the coconut shells in the retort
provides
> the heat to carbonise the remainder, which in turn produces toxic,
combustible
> pyrolysis gases. It is the burning of those gases which provides the heat
for
> drying copra, but if the pyrolysis gases are not fully combusted, i.e.
smoke is
> emitted to atmosphere, pollution is occurring and adding to the brown
cloud now
> permanently covering much of southern Asia.
>
> > A simple and efficient method
> > adopted for the production of charcoal on cottage scale is given below.
> >
> > Process (Drum Method)
> >
> > A M.S. Drum kiln is used for carbonization of shells. The drum consists
of
> > three sets of six 1" dia holes provided at its bottom, middle and upper
> > layers and a lid. A detachable chimney is provided which is installed on
> > the lid after closing the drum. The manufacture of charcoal requires
> > optimum carbonization of raw shells in a limited supply of air so that
> > there is neither unburnt shell nor ash due to complete combustion.
> >
> > The steel drum is filled with raw shells after placing temporarily a
four
> > inch diameter wooden pole in the centre of the drum. The wooden pole is
> > then removed, leaving a hollow space in the centre, which allows the
flow
> > of smoke during carbonization.
>
> Unless that smoke is fully combusted as it exits the detachable chimney it
will
> add to the brown cloud referred to above.
>
> An increasing number of us who live in "the modern industrial nations"
realise
> that pollution anywhere in the world is a shared problem and that helping
> internationally to increase the use of 'clean' and efficient equipment,
whether
> stoves or charcoal making retorts, is in our long term interest as well as
that
> of the billions in other countries who at present cannot afford it and
whose
> health is now suffering as a result.
>
> It will take a long time, but we have no choice but to get there in the
end.
>
> Regards,
>
> Thomas J Stubbing
>
> P.S. I am no longer a <bioenergy@crest.org> or <gasification@crest.org>
member,
> so if the Stoves Moderator thinks it appropriate I would ask him to
forward this
> message to those lists.
>

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Sun Sep 15 02:59:19 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020914215308.00a64a70@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020915204845.00a65380@localhost>

At 09:02 14/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>"In any event, with most biofuels you remove the energy and are still left
>with
>the food -- or "feed" more often (for livestock). With ethanol the feed
>value is
>enhanced: the distillers dried grains by-product is more nutritious than the
>original unprocessed grain (because of the yeast)."
> From http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html

What then, do you mean by 'food' or 'feed'? Would you deny that nutrient
(that which provides energy for the consumer) is lost in the process?
Even if the yeast has a high nutritional value, it has grown from sugars
contained in the feedstock, a process which incurs losses such as heat and
ethanol. So the end product must contain less nutritional value than the
original. One kg of feedstock (grain etc) yields x kg of ethanol and much
less than one kg of dried grains by-product, the nutrient (or combustion
value) is markedly less than that of the original one kg feedstock.

Peter Verhaart

From tombreed at attbi.com Sun Sep 15 05:58:21 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Ethanol/methanol
In-Reply-To: <OE35mDzYbB1t93Lx9w500001015@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c701c25cbf$cbf78360$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Harmon and All:

Harmon complained about mis-information, but added a little (and there may
be some here.. absolute truth is elusive).

~~~~~~
Fruit juices do make some methanol along with the ethanol when they ferment.
I was told that Schlivovitz (Plum Brandy) contains 2-3% methanol along with
the ethanol.

Fortunately, the alcohol dehydrogenase that digests the ethanol passes the
methanol through and out without problem.

The standard remedy for accidentally drinking methanol is to drink ethanol
(to keep the enzymes quiet).

If you drink straight methanol the enzyme converts the methanol to formic
acid which can fry your eyeballs or kill you.

Methanol is about four times as toxic as ethanol - and isn't intoxicating.
So anyone setting out to get high on methanol will probably kill himself.
Bad rap!

The Merck Index (11th edition) says the usual fatal dose for methanol is
100-250 ml. Doe;sn't say for ethyl alacohol, but lists lots of references
on toxicity, and we have all probably lost friends to good old EtOH.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>
Cc: "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>; "Enid and George"
<mawnpaw@speedline.ca>; "Stoves" <stoves@crest.org>; "Ryan Chladny"
<rchladny@ualberta.ca>; "Claire" <claire@hcctraining.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: Acid and Homely Likker Was: Re: Gelling fuel with calcium
acetate

> Gee, an awful lot of misinformation about alcohol going around here.
High
> proof ethanol is not deadly, in fact when I was a student we used to drink
lab
> alcohol (100% or 200 proof) ethanol. Pretty common among students, at
least
> those who have access to labs. Of course even scotch or vodka, whatever,
can
> kill you if you drink enough in a short time. Potatoes, btw, don't ferment
into
> methanol -- nothing does. Potatoes are what vodka is made from.
> Having grown up in moonshine country, I can assure you that most of it,
at
> least here in the US, is pretty good stuff. Moonshiners who add acid or
other
> things like hot pepper really do so because the alchohol content of their
> product is too low and they need something to make it taste strong.
> The term moonshine comes from the fact that it was often made at night so
no one
> could see the smoke. Here in the US you will sometimes find bootleg
alcohol
> being sold in regular stores or bars in name brand bottles with counterfit
tax
> stamps. Many people can't tell the difference, but I well recall stopping
in a
> small town bar and ordering a shot of tequila -- it was pure corn whiskey!
Good
> quality corn, but corn nonetheless. When I was a kid, the local sheriff
used to
> bring my dad gallon jugs of the best quality stuff they had seized in
raids, a
> lot of bootleggers have a real pride of craftsmanship.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 14, 2002 at 09:29:53AM -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> > Dear Crispin
> >
> > Thanks for your interesting backgrounder!!
> >
> > Newfie Screech is "store liquor" and is quite safe to
> > drink... it is an average grade of Black Rum. It runs
> > 40% Alcohol....
> >
> > Pot still likker.... moonshine.... can be very
> > dangerous stuff; perhaps it is called "moonshine"
> > because some of it will ensure that you never see teh
> > light of day again!! Shine from potatoes is apparently
> > particularily bad, because apparently, it ferments out
> > to yield a relatively high percentage of methanol..
> >
> > Would anyone with a brewing background know why
> > sulphuric acid is used in teh brewing industry? What is
> > it intended to accomplish?
> >
> > ...del...
> > > Here in Swaziland we have something caled Pikiliyeza which is a blend
of a
> > > small amount of traditional sorghum brew, lots of home-brewed
sugarcane
> > > alcohol, a few spices and a liberal dose of battery acid (I am not
> > > kidding). The name roughly means "The pick-axe is coming for your
head". I
> > > am pretty sure it would gell. Another local candidate translates as
"Doors
> > > to the mortuary".
> > >
> > > The guy who sells me diesel sells 600 litres of battery acid a month
to the
> > > local brewing industry in Manzini.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Crispin the abstainer
> >
> > KIndest regards,
> >
> > Kevin Chisholm
> >
> > -
> > Stoves List Archives and Website:
> > http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> > http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> > >
> > Stoves List Moderators:
> > Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> > Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> > Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> > http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> > List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> > List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> > List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> > >
> > For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

-
Bioenergy List Archives:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/bioenergy/200207/

Bioenergy List Moderator:
Tom Miles, tmiles@trmiles.com
List-Post: <mailto:bioenergy@crest.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bioenergy-help@crest.org>
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Sponsor the Bioenergy List: http://www.crest.org/discuss3.html
-
Other Bioenergy Events and Information:
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http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Sep 15 06:23:23 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDEEFFEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEIDCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Bryan:

You said recently:

"We will be running another batch of FTIR emissions tests on Monday on a
rocket stove. I was going to use the opportunity to measure the aldehyde
emissions from gel fuel. Several people have mentioned Sterno, but it just
occurred to me that Sterno is probably gel methanol.

Does anyone know for sure what Sterno is made of?

Does anyone know of any commercial gel ethanol products which are
distributed widely in the U.S.?"

(RWL): 1. Thanks for this offer to do some stoves-type testing on
alcohol-gel type fuels. I found with a "google" search this web site:

http://www.candlecorpfs.com/

2. It appears that you can get Sterno as either a methanol base (71%) or
an ethanol base (67% ethanol, 4% methanol). There is also a liquid
"diethylene glycol" cooking product, whose composition I couldn't decipher
in the interesting product hazard spec sheets you will find at the sterno
web site. I guess that the remainder % is largely water - but am not sure.

3. I also found a fold up Sterno cook stove at an under $10 price at this
site:

http://www.baproducts.com/ss236.htm

The product and price look good to me for a camping type stove and for
up-scale restaurants - but (based mostly on other recent comments from list
members) doubt this has a market in many rural areas for the typical
housewife - regardless of the feedstock. The price of the fuel looks
prohibitive.

4. Now addressing Matthew (in an attempt to get back to cooking), who
started this mostly off-stove dialog which has shown that this list has too
many members with a questionable past: A year or two ago, I saw an
alternative (never seen before or since) at a nice ski resort restaurant to
the gel fuels - which was a large (maybe 30 cm dia. and 5 cm thick) highly
polished stone (maybe marble). This was brought to the table at some
suitable braising temperature (unknown by me - you will need to experiment)
in a suitably insulating "Hay box". We cooked pieces of thin beef, chicken,
shrimp, onions, potatoes, etc in very rapid fashion and the stone was still
hot enough after a half hour of eating to do some slow cooking of the
leftovers. I thought it was great - but of course has some of the hazards
of any form of cooking at the table. Would this work in your Kenyan
restaurant applications? Might save everyone some costs and the stone(s)
could be possibly heated with waste heat from some other operation.

5. Now talking to and introducing Todd Crown (303-373-2244)- who is the
Colorado rep for Sterno products. Would you please be good enough to call
Professor Willson (970/491-4783) or myself (303/526-9629) to help us
understand a bit more on Sterno products? For background on this subject,
if needed, look up www.crest.org (and find "stovevs as a discussion list)
and then look over the last week's many mostly ill-informed messages on
alcohol gel products of which Sterno appears to be the industry leader.
Todd - our list is usually talking only of stoves for the very poor in
developing countries - but I think your expertise could help this list a
lot - as some have proposed that gel fuels have some nice properties even
there. We would welcome your comments (which will have to be sent through
me unless you join the list- which we would welcome.)

6. This is also to note that I have had some off-line conversations over
the years with list member Paul Hait, who has devevloped some stoves and
fuel products along these lines - and may (or may not) be ready to talk
about them.

7. (For Robert van der Plas): Thanks for your very useful summary (from
last Wednesday) of costs in Ethiopia (I bet we all would like to hear more
on what you are doing there). In low-income rural stove and fuel
applications, I have concluded that gel fuels of any type will just not make
it for cost reasons. Like you, I am still unsure about urban setting where
fuel will have to be purchased anyway. I hope those of this list who have
experience with markting stoves will answer Robert's question on what type
of clients will want and will benefit from this type of fuel/stove.
Remember that we started this dicussion talking about restaurant cooking
applications - so it is fair also to express views on that alone (I have
seen charcoal at the restaurant table many times, for instance - and note
that Robert spoke fairly highly of charcoal as a fuel with good tradeoff
properties.)

Ron

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Sep 15 06:26:09 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020914215308.00a64a70@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020915142404.GA9917@cybershamanix.com>

Sugars and starches are not good food, protein is better. As someone else
pointed out, the world is not lacking an ample supply of sugar and starch, it
is, at least in some places, deficient in protein. Even as cattle and hog feed,
protein is more desirable.
Looking at it from the farmer's standpoint, for instance, if he were to
actually distill the ethanol himself, selling it and then at the same time
selling the meat he grew from the high protein mash left over from the ethanol
process, he'd certainly be much further ahead than if he simply sold the corn.
And, of course, at this point, if it weren't for the substantial subsidy he
gets from the gov't for the corn, he couldn't possibly even grow it without
taking a huge loss, at least not with the prevelant chemical/industrial farming
methods. I burned some corn last Winter in my gasifying heater, it was cheaper
to buy than firewood. Definitely cheaper per BTU than natural gas or oil. That's
more than a little bit absurd.
As for exporting all this cheap corn, isn't that really a harmful policy? We
flood the markets in say Guatamala with cheap corn, putting the local farmers
out of business so they can move to the city and work in a sweat shop? And, of
course, then be much more under the thumb of the powers that be? Ideally I think
we need a serious revamp of the entire system, not just worrying about whether
we loose some sugars. At least in the US, too much sugar in the diet is now
creating almost an epedemic of diabetes, so turning sugars into fuel and
creating more protein in the process is a good thing.

On Sun, Sep 15, 2002 at 08:58:05PM +1000, Peter Verhaart wrote:
> At 09:02 14/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >"In any event, with most biofuels you remove the energy and are still left
> >with
> >the food -- or "feed" more often (for livestock). With ethanol the feed
> >value is
> >enhanced: the distillers dried grains by-product is more nutritious than
> >the
> >original unprocessed grain (because of the yeast)."
> > From http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html
>
> What then, do you mean by 'food' or 'feed'? Would you deny that nutrient
> (that which provides energy for the consumer) is lost in the process?
> Even if the yeast has a high nutritional value, it has grown from sugars
> contained in the feedstock, a process which incurs losses such as heat and
> ethanol. So the end product must contain less nutritional value than the
> original. One kg of feedstock (grain etc) yields x kg of ethanol and much
> less than one kg of dried grains by-product, the nutrient (or combustion
> value) is markedly less than that of the original one kg feedstock.
>
> Peter Verhaart

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sun Sep 15 07:13:40 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Fuel and much more from cattails
Message-ID: <000001c25cce$03b4e3c0$1656c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

I would like to know the botanical name of cattail. My Oxford
dictionery tells me that it is a species of Typha, but the English and
U.S.Americans often use the same word for different things. For instance a
bill in the US means paper money while a bill in England is a demand for
payment.
There is also a general point that I wish
to make about all uncultivated species of plants. Not having been
subjected to any plant breeding input, wild species generally turn out to
be lower yielding than species bred for high yield. Thus, as far tuber or
rhizome yield is concerned, I doubt if any wild plant can beat cultivated
varieties of tapioca, potato or the yams.
A.D.Karve
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
-----Original Message-----From:
Carefreeland@aol.com <<A
href="mailto:Carefreeland@aol.com">Carefreeland@aol.com>To:
hseaver@cybershamanix.com
<<A
href="mailto:hseaver@cybershamanix.com">hseaver@cybershamanix.com>; <A
href="mailto:Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk">Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk
<<A
href="mailto:Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk">Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk>;
bioenergy@crest.org <<A
href="mailto:bioenergy@crest.org">bioenergy@crest.org>; <A
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org <<A
href="mailto:gasification@crest.org">gasification@crest.org>; <A
href="mailto:wastewatts@yahoogroups.com">wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <<A
href="mailto:wastewatts@yahoogroups.com">wastewatts@yahoogroups.com>Cc:
stoves@crest.org <<A
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org>Date:
Saturday, September 14, 2002 12:29 PMSubject: Gel Fuel and much
more from cattailsIn a message dated 9/12/02 11:38:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <A
href="mailto:hseaver@cybershamanix.com">hseaver@cybershamanix.com
writes:> Daniel's comments below
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
TYPE="CITE"> I should have added that one of the best
feedstocks for ethanol production iscattails. Much better yields per
acre than grains, plus it grows where normalfood crops won't (other than
rice), the starchy roots used for ethanol pluscreating great animal feed
in the process (of course, cattail roots have longbeen a human food as
well), the tops for gasification, and the seed headspressed for oil.
-- Harmon Seaver >
This is an excellent suggestion. Many of the stoves people are looking
into biomass energy derived from growing in wild, rural locations. Where I
live, the extensive urban sprawl has taken much of the once very productive
farmland out of production. A large percentage of the new land not having
buildings and parking lots on it, is set aside for drainage ponds.
> Called retention or detention ponds, these man made wetlands
are taking over the landscape. These vary in size from large airated lakes,
from which irrigation water is drawn and fish are raised, to mere moist spots,
which are dry in all but the wettest weather. The primary purpose is to manage
the runoff from paved land and rooftops. In some cases these ponds raise the
water table higher than it was in the natural setting before development. By
nature, these ponds have an extreme in variance of wet area size through the
season. > I have for some years been seeking out ways to produce useful
benefit from these areas, to offset the often difficult plant management
required. I have seen a terrible overuse of chemical management in these
areas, due to the amount of rapid overgrowth and insect problems. While this
happens, frogs, toads, bats, birds, and other often endangered wildlife, which
thrive in these urban wetland habitats, are under attack by pesticides.
> Harmons suggestion of productive use for cattails which could be
mechanicly harvested, is one of the best solutions I have heard of yet. Much
of the surface of these ponds is often covered with cattails, and more would
be, if every effort wasn't being made to reduce them. Cattails are known for
filtering the water, a very important feature in these settings where motor
oil and other human derived waste often contaminates the runnoff.> The
next question is, how can we efficiantly harvest these, possibly roots and
all, and create a business to offset the lack of grass cutting jobs in the dry
seasons when the cattails are most easily accessable? This would be a
great add on specialty service for landscapers. A minimal charge for the
service would replace the cost of pesticide application already being budgeted
by landowners. >I have a bobcat which can accept removable caterpillar
treads. Could an attachment devise be designed to rapidly pull cattails
up by the roots, and put them in a waiting truck? A washer would also
have to be designed to wash off the dirt from the roots, possibly incorporated
into the first design, drawing wash water from the wet areas of the ponds.
Harmon, how is this done in the manual way? > This is exactly the kind
of solution to problems, that take a bad situation created by expanding
population, and create good for all. The energy is out there, just focused in
the wrong negative directions. If we could all turn these situations around,
like many on these list's are already doing, everyone would come out
ahead. I believe that this is the greatest potential of the Internet.
> This is originally a stoves list topic. I have forwarded this letter
to some other lists to open up minds as to sources of biomass sometimes
overlooked. Someone can forward this to biodigestion and bioconversion
as well. All of these lists have persons who can use this suggestion as
applied to their specific area of development. When Tom Miles comments on
(applauds) a suggestion, I know it is a significant one. > My computer
will be off tonight, as a drought quenching electrical thunderstorm has
finally arrived here in Dayton Ohio. We have had one of the dryest June-
August periods on record. Greenhouse Effect? > Hats off to Harmon,
Goodnight or Goodmorning?

Daniel
Dimiduk

From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Sun Sep 15 07:21:03 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEIDCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDMEGNEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

Ron - an update.

Rob Bailis, a PhD student at Berkely, bought some commercial gel ethanol in
Zimbabwe and brought it back. I can't imagine how he ever got it on an
airplane, but he has a stock. He contacted me yesterday and is sending some
to our lab for the aldehyde testing I mentioned earlier. We'll go ahead and
take a sniff of Sterno next week, and then
test the gel ethanol when it arrives (via ground shipment).

Interesting to note that there are two Sterno formulations - I'm surprised
the average consumer would care enough to justify the expense of
distributing two different projects with the same end use.

Thanks!

- Bryan Willson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Larson [mailto:ronallarson@qwest.net]
> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 8:24 AM
> To: Bryan Willson; stoves@crest.org; owen@africaonline.co.ke; Paul Hait;
> rvanderplas@yahoo.com
> Cc: tcrown@coleharford.com
> Subject: RE: Gel Fuel
>
>
> Bryan:
>
> You said recently:
>
> "We will be running another batch of FTIR emissions tests on Monday on a
> rocket stove. I was going to use the opportunity to measure the aldehyde
> emissions from gel fuel. Several people have mentioned Sterno,
> but it just
> occurred to me that Sterno is probably gel methanol.
>
> Does anyone know for sure what Sterno is made of?
>
> Does anyone know of any commercial gel ethanol products which are
> distributed widely in the U.S.?"
>
> (RWL): 1. Thanks for this offer to do some stoves-type testing on
> alcohol-gel type fuels. I found with a "google" search this web site:
>
> http://www.candlecorpfs.com/
>
> 2. It appears that you can get Sterno as either a methanol
> base (71%) or
> an ethanol base (67% ethanol, 4% methanol). There is also a liquid
> "diethylene glycol" cooking product, whose composition I couldn't decipher
> in the interesting product hazard spec sheets you will find at the sterno
> web site. I guess that the remainder % is largely water - but am
> not sure.
>
> 3. I also found a fold up Sterno cook stove at an under
> $10 price at this
> site:
>
> http://www.baproducts.com/ss236.htm
>
> The product and price look good to me for a camping type
> stove and for
> up-scale restaurants - but (based mostly on other recent comments
> from list
> members) doubt this has a market in many rural areas for the typical
> housewife - regardless of the feedstock. The price of the fuel looks
> prohibitive.
>
> 4. Now addressing Matthew (in an attempt to get back to
> cooking), who
> started this mostly off-stove dialog which has shown that this
> list has too
> many members with a questionable past: A year or two ago, I saw an
> alternative (never seen before or since) at a nice ski resort
> restaurant to
> the gel fuels - which was a large (maybe 30 cm dia. and 5 cm
> thick) highly
> polished stone (maybe marble). This was brought to the table at some
> suitable braising temperature (unknown by me - you will need to
> experiment)
> in a suitably insulating "Hay box". We cooked pieces of thin
> beef, chicken,
> shrimp, onions, potatoes, etc in very rapid fashion and the stone
> was still
> hot enough after a half hour of eating to do some slow cooking of the
> leftovers. I thought it was great - but of course has some of the hazards
> of any form of cooking at the table. Would this work in your Kenyan
> restaurant applications? Might save everyone some costs and the stone(s)
> could be possibly heated with waste heat from some other operation.
>
> 5. Now talking to and introducing Todd Crown
> (303-373-2244)- who is the
> Colorado rep for Sterno products. Would you please be good enough to call
> Professor Willson (970/491-4783) or myself (303/526-9629) to help us
> understand a bit more on Sterno products? For background on
> this subject,
> if needed, look up www.crest.org (and find "stovevs as a discussion list)
> and then look over the last week's many mostly ill-informed messages on
> alcohol gel products of which Sterno appears to be the industry leader.
> Todd - our list is usually talking only of stoves for the very poor in
> developing countries - but I think your expertise could help this list a
> lot - as some have proposed that gel fuels have some nice properties even
> there. We would welcome your comments (which will have to be sent through
> me unless you join the list- which we would welcome.)
>
> 6. This is also to note that I have had some off-line
> conversations over
> the years with list member Paul Hait, who has devevloped some stoves and
> fuel products along these lines - and may (or may not) be ready to talk
> about them.
>
> 7. (For Robert van der Plas): Thanks for your very
> useful summary (from
> last Wednesday) of costs in Ethiopia (I bet we all would like to
> hear more
> on what you are doing there). In low-income rural stove and fuel
> applications, I have concluded that gel fuels of any type will
> just not make
> it for cost reasons. Like you, I am still unsure about urban
> setting where
> fuel will have to be purchased anyway. I hope those of this
> list who have
> experience with markting stoves will answer Robert's question on what type
> of clients will want and will benefit from this type of fuel/stove.
> Remember that we started this dicussion talking about restaurant cooking
> applications - so it is fair also to express views on that alone (I have
> seen charcoal at the restaurant table many times, for instance - and note
> that Robert spoke fairly highly of charcoal as a fuel with good tradeoff
> properties.)
>
>
> Ron

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Sep 15 08:07:48 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: coppicing promotion
In-Reply-To: <MABBKKNLMCKBBJKBLMGNEEOMCMAA.raywije@eureka.lk>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIKEIECBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

On Thursday, Sept 12, Ray Wijewardene gave a nice description and plea for
more attention to fuelwood plantations. This is to say a bit more about Ray
and then ask some questions.

1. At the Karves-Arti sponsored stove conference in Pune several years ago,
Ray gave a talk rather like his summary on coppicing practices in Sri Lanka.
We had a (not-enough) chance to talk on our bus trips around Pune and I
think I can talk for all there at Pune that we were very impressed by Ray.
Ray is a retired businessman who I believe (hope Ray will correct me) had a
successful long-term worldwide business in manufacturing and selling small
IC-powered tractors and small garden implements. He stays active being an
advisor now to a number of Sri Lankan government agencies - especially in
the energy area. Ray is probably one of our best experts on manufacturing
and rural sales - and (I think) our best on fuelwood production.

Question #1:
You have stated a preference for methanol over ethanol - but I wonder if
you can state a preference for methanol over wood and/or charcoal (and if so
what type of village or user economics are you thinking about?

Question #2 re your national program called GROWING OUR OWN ENERGY:
a. You used the term "NF trees" What "does NF" mean?
b. You called for a spacing of about 150 cm between trees. How critical
is this distance - and do you stagger the spacings?
c. When you lop off branches (coppice) at 40-50 mm diameter - is this done
every year?
d. What is the annual production in kg per tree or per hectare? If sold
per kg in Sri Lanka - what is that price?
e. Are these statistics achieved with irrigation?
f. How long after planting before production can begin?
g. Is it much better or not to start plants in a nursery?
h. What are you favorite tree species for different rainfall or irrigation
conditions?
i. Are there any nut or fruit species that can provide a co-product to
improve the economics?
j. You said "The major new market for fuel-wood is for the
gasifiers ...." Is there an "old" market for cookstove use? What are the
relative expenses of electricity production from gasifiers and imported oil?
k. Why do we not see more coppice production around the world? What have
been the major difficulties in getting it started in Sri Lanka?
l. I receive a free e-mail publication from http://agroforester.com
(and when I just went to look at that site found this:
http://agroforester.com/overstory/ovbook.html (a book with a special deal
that ends today)
I remember reading a few years ago what is probably now the chapter on
coppicing. Do you like this site or have any other favorite websites to
learn about the benefits of coppicing?
m. we have recently talked about bamboo as a stove fuel. Can we consider
this a form of coppicing?

n. Any other things to add - given these questions above? Any aditional
benefits we should be discussing

One final comment: Coppiced branches are the perfect fuel in my opiniuon
for charcoal-making stoves. As I know such is being produced in Sri lanka -
can you add anything on the Sri Lankan stove production?

Ray - Thanks very much for periodically reminding us of this most important
aspect of making biomass cookstoves a sustainable activity.

Ron

From keith at journeytoforever.org Sun Sep 15 09:15:19 2002
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020914215308.00a64a70@localhost>
Message-ID: <v04210162b9aa2074f776@[192.168.0.2]>

>At 09:02 14/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>"In any event, with most biofuels you remove the energy and are
>>still left with
>>the food -- or "feed" more often (for livestock). With ethanol the
>>feed value is
>>enhanced: the distillers dried grains by-product is more nutritious than the
>>original unprocessed grain (because of the yeast)."
>>From http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html
>
>What then, do you mean by 'food' or 'feed'? Would you deny that
>nutrient (that which provides energy for the consumer) is lost in
>the process?
>Even if the yeast has a high nutritional value, it has grown from
>sugars contained in the feedstock, a process which incurs losses
>such as heat and ethanol. So the end product must contain less
>nutritional value than the original. One kg of feedstock (grain etc)
>yields x kg of ethanol and much less than one kg of dried grains
>by-product, the nutrient (or combustion value) is markedly less than
>that of the original one kg feedstock.
>
>Peter Verhaart

Hello Peter

It depends on what you mean by "nutrient". People who buy DDG value
it for its high protein content, higher than that of the feedstock
that produced it, as the protein grows beef, and the carbohydrate
it's derived from just provides energy. Carbohydrate is much cheaper
than protein - paying carbohydrates for protein is a good deal,
especially with such a high-value co-product as ethanol. From the
yeast's point of view, so to speak, the carbohydrate is a nutrient,
and the ethanol a waste product - ethanol is essentially yeast-piss.
What departs with the ethanol is more than made up for by the
increase in protein from the yeast growth. It's often the same with
energy - using lots of a non-transportable fuel in the creation of a
smaller amount of transportable fuel might be a negative in terms of
energy efficiency, but a positive in terms of energy value. And
nutritional value is more important than mere nutrient quantity.

Nature doesn't always work in such an in-out production-line way as
you calculate above. Worms, for instance, appear to eat soil, or soil
organic-matter. Actually what they derive their nourishment from is
the soil micro-organisms. Yet their casts (excreta) contain eight
times as many micro-organisms as the surrounding soil. Just by
coincidence (?), they consume the pathogens and excrete the types
which are most beneficial for plant growth, helping to assure a
continuing supply of soil organic-matter. They also use soil
particles to grind up the organic matter in the gut, grinding the
soil particles to dust in the process, thus lacing the casts with a
fresh supply of minerals for the beneficial micro-organisms (and the
plants). The worms themselves grow and breed fast, and nutritionally
they're higher-grade protein than beef. No way is there that much
protein in the soil they eat. Such arrangements are very common. With
manure worms, you can produce large amounts of high-grade protein
(ace feed for pigs or poultry, or fish) from waste paper and
cardboard and a bit of water, entirely protein-free. Where does it
come from? Thin air.

If you should think such a use of waste paper and cardboard wastes a
lot of trees, maybe you'd be right, but waste paper and cardboard are
a major landfill component in the US (along with 7.5 million tons of
wooden pallets a year). You could turn all that into a lot of pigs
and chickens, and the pig and chicken wastes could help grow a lot of
trees - and make energy plantations more sustainable. Not if it's all
planned from on high by a corporation though.

Gains like this tend to be ignored by economists and central-planning
bean-counters (swords have the same "value" as ploughshares), but
they can be rather well accounted for when small, local markets are
allowed to take care of themselves, along with their various
producers, consumers and resources. It doesn't make a lot of sense to
keep on producing corn in the US when huge surpluses make it about
the cheapest thing you can burn in your stove. It makes more sense to
convert it into saleable ethanol fuel plus DDG feed, which is more
saleable than the corn. The same applies to soy - there's no market
for soy, but there is a market for soy seedcake as feed once you've
extracted the oil from it. But there's no market for the oil, there's
billions of gallons of it in surplus. So turn it into biodiesel -
only it's not economical because the oil's expensive, despite the
glut, and while soy-growing is heavily subsidized, biodiesel fuel
isn't, or not much, unlike fossil fuel (est. true cost $100 a
barrel). The farmer nonetheless gets very little for his soybeans, as
with the corn farmer - and unlike the oil companies. What really
makes sense is not to grow corn or soy in the first place, and the
concentrated livestock operations (factories) they feed don't make
sense either, even disregarding all the externalized costs. And both
soy and corn are lousy energy crops anyway. That's the "free market"
for you, as rigged from on high. Local markets aren't that dumb, and
they really are free, or can be. Local production makes the best
sense of bioenergy too, including biofuels.

Meanwhile, since they've got the stuff, turn it into fuel where it
can do some good at least, as well as offset the immense carbon
emissions of industrialised agriculture (burning ethanol and
biodiesel is carbon neutral, and it's that much fossil fuel not
burnt). As for feeding hungry people, vanishingly little of this
stuff ever gets to hungry people, it's for feeding livestock in the
rich countries. And it doesn't even do that efficiently. So don't be
too concerned about nutrient losses.

On a local level, a sustainable (integrated) farm should be able to
produce enough biofuel for on-farm needs mostly as a by-product, from
a varying range of feedstocks, and producing an excess for local sale
shouldn't be a problem if required. With good management, any
nutrient losses, from crops or from the soil itself, can be made up
from on-farm resources without imports from outside, as usual.

Regards

Keith Addison

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Sep 15 13:00:08 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Coconut gassifiers
Message-ID: <00b801c25cfb$9ab69980$6d3cfea9@home>

Dear Stovers

One of the worst fuels I have ever tried to burn is coconut husks. I did
mange to get some (suitably cut into small parts) to burn with secondary
combustion in a standard Tsotso stove a couple of years ago. This proved to
me that the masses of gasses billowing off were combustible, however decent
clean secondary combustion only lasted about 15 seconds out of each 2 minute
refueling cycle.

Coconut husks are available in vast quantities free in Moçamique - it was a
request form there to investigate burning them that led to the tests. I
wonder if Paul Anderson's gassifier would work with that fuel?

As the energy value of the husk is quite small per kg, perhaps the best way
to burn them would be to seal a large amount in a container and produce gas
to be ignited 'higher up'. The shells burn really well but the husks are
the available fuel.

Would a fan let these things gas and burn? Would a chimney do as well?
Institutional cooking in huge iron pots (30 gallons) would be a good place
to try a large gassifier with husk fuel and a tall chimney for draft.

Regards
Crispin

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Sep 15 13:01:21 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Stove testing in Northern Province (now called Limpopo Prov.)
Message-ID: <00b701c25cfb$9a211040$6d3cfea9@home>

Dear Stovers

GTZ has ordered some Basintuthu stoves to test alongside the Rocket Stoves
'in the field' starting the end of September under their current program
headed by Marlis Kees.

The name (which is highly local to Swaziland) will have to be changed in
part because we are introducing different air control with more primary
preheating and in part because it is cumbersome. David Hancock says that
the marketing people have total control over what a stove name is and we
developers get no say at all!

Regards
Crispin

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Sep 15 13:34:10 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Fw: RETORT FOR CARBONISING COCONUT SHELLS - REG.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020915024935.00a02b90@wgs1.btl.net>
Message-ID: <013901c25cfe$552f3180$6d3cfea9@home>

Dear Stovers

Auke is correct: not all countries use western Roman numerals and European
counting systems!

India does not divide numbers into 000,000,000 but uses 00.00.00 instead
with a name for each pair of zeros instead of each triplet (millions,
billions etc). Just one of the many things that needs to be adjusted as the
world integrates into one planet with world citizens. Calendars are far
more diverse though.

My buddy Cecil Cook did his doctoral research with people whose numbering
system consisted of 1, 2, 3 and 'many'. Africa seems to be very westernized
in this regard, using the European divisions.

Regards
Crispin

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Sep 15 13:37:57 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Acid and Homely Likker Was: Re: Gelling fuel with calcium acetate
In-Reply-To: <83.20b1ed65.2ab551cc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <013801c25cfe$54908080$6d3cfea9@home>

Friends

The report from South Africa that 5 or 6 people had died from drinking
ethanol has been corrected. They stole and consumed methanol. There are
another 6 or so in hospital. According to memory, they will all go blind
over the next few weeks.

Methanol is widely sold as a paraffin pressure stove lighter and is normally
dyed purple. Presumable the large jug in the storeroom was not.

Can methanol be gelled for fuel purposes or is it too expensive?
Regards
Crispin

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Sep 15 15:19:00 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Stove testing in Northern Province (now called Limpopo Prov.)
In-Reply-To: <00b701c25cfb$9a211040$6d3cfea9@home>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEIKCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Crispin:

I felt your stove I saw at the WSSD was considerably different from the
Basintuthu - which I just looked up again at your web site. I see no
mention there of the double preheating feature - but there is mention of the
air control. Which are you supplying for test? Or both?

Under your section on tests there is some good information on something you
call "type 2". is that the new on?

If you are looking for a name suggestion - I would try to get in the
concept of air control. I feel that is key - and there are not many with
that capability.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Crispin [mailto:crispin@newdawn.sz]
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 2:22 PM
To: Stoves
Subject: Stove testing in Northern Province (now called Limpopo Prov.)

Dear Stovers

GTZ has ordered some Basintuthu stoves to test alongside the Rocket Stoves
'in the field' starting the end of September under their current program
headed by Marlis Kees.

Regards
Crispin

From stoves at ecoharmony.com Sun Sep 15 21:46:46 2002
From: stoves at ecoharmony.com (Grant Ballard-Tremeer)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Fuel and much more from cattails
In-Reply-To: <000001c25cce$03b4e3c0$1656c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <143919415.20020916074221@ecoharmony.com>

There are many Typha species - Typha angustifolia and Typha latifolia
in Europe, and Typha australis in the tropics - A great webpage for
information on the energetic use of Typha is www.typha.net

Another plant with very interesting properties for provision of
Household Energy is Jatropha (Physic Nuts) - www.jatropha.org

Regards

Grant

--
Grant Ballard-Tremeer PhD, visit ECO Ltd on the web at http://ecoharmony.com
HEDON Household Energy Network http://ecoharmony.net/hedon
SPARKNET Knowledge Network in Southern and East Africa http://sparknet.info
HEDON on Agenda 21 and the World Summit http://ecoharmony.net/agenda21
-------------------

Sunday, September 15, 2002, 1:33:17 PM, you wrote:

ADK> I would like to know the botanical name of cattail.

From pverhaart at optusnet.com.au Mon Sep 16 01:58:54 2002
From: pverhaart at optusnet.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:08 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020915204845.00a65380@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020916195700.00a5e140@localhost>

At 09:24 15/09/02 -0500, you wrote:
> Sugars and starches are not good food, protein is better. As someone else
>pointed out, the world is not lacking an ample supply of sugar and starch, it
>is, at least in some places, deficient in protein. Even as cattle and hog
>feed,
>protein is more desirable.

We don't seem to be talking about the same thing.

Peter Verhaart

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Sep 16 04:17:52 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Fw: RETORT FOR CARBONISING COCONUT SHELLS - REG.
In-Reply-To: <012f01c25c25$ac85cb30$6601a8c0@tommain>
Message-ID: <6hgbouopeekd3d2lpigqtlp51tnnsp7pbg@4ax.com>

On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:46:31 -0300, Kevin Chisholm
<kchisholm@ca.inter.net> wrote:

>Dear List
>
>What temperature is required for carbonization of
>coconut shells?
>
>It probably depends on the grade of coconut charcoal
>being made... to refine the question: What temperatures
>are required for the various grades of coconut husk or
>coconut shell charcoal?
>

You are right, too imprecise a question to easily answer, firstly what
grade of charcoal do you wish to market? What amount of fines are you
prepared to trade off against saleable lumpwood?

In general the lower the temperature that you can operate the process
the higher mass yield, as you retain volatiles in the char. As you
approach higher temperature the thermal effects tend to break the
pieces of char or render them more friable.

I do not know the actual composition of coconut shells (nor the husks,
is this what coir is made from?) however if it can be considered
similar to wood and composed of a mixture of cellulose, hemicellulose
and lignin then we can expect the hemicellulose and lignin to start
pyrolising at <200C and the cellulose at 270C. I would expect a high
volatiles char made at this low temperature to yield about 45% of the
dry weight in a retort system.

>
>> Tom Miles wrote:
>>
>> Forwarded to the list. What sources do we have for
>> retorts to make charcoal from coconut shells?

I think he would do well to look at the NRI kiln (NB this is a kiln
rather than the requested retort) with waste heat recovery developed
in the late 80s specifically for this feedstock. I believe it yielded
>35% by initial weight of saleable product (with fines as a by
product) from shells at an initial mc of 14%. The heat recovered being
used to dry the crop.

AJH

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Sep 16 04:25:45 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Coconut gassifiers
In-Reply-To: <00b801c25cfb$9ab69980$6d3cfea9@home>
Message-ID: <s8fbou8f89rjio08k9fpleqlol9g0bppqa@4ax.com>

On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:27:44 +0200, "Crispin" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
wrote:

>As the energy value of the husk is quite small per kg,

Do you know why? is the ash very high?

>perhaps the best way
>to burn them would be to seal a large amount in a container and produce gas
>to be ignited 'higher up'. The shells burn really well but the husks are
>the available fuel.

All the more reason to attempt to burn the husks at below
stoichiometric air levels to produce a reducing flue gas, this is then
available to provide the small amount of heat to push the shells into
pyrolysis.
>
>Would a fan let these things gas and burn?

Almost certainly

> Would a chimney do as well?

No but still a possibility

>Institutional cooking in huge iron pots (30 gallons) would be a good place
>to try a large gassifier with husk fuel and a tall chimney for draft.

I'd love to try it, the combination of poor fuel and larger heat
requirement make my sort of burners practical (even possibly the steam
powered aspiration).

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Sep 16 04:30:49 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <002b01c257f9$25538920$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <tahboukbr6cbouqk2fs7lppg42dk64s66c@4ax.com>

On Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:07:53 +1000, Peter Verhaart
<pverhaart@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>I am fairly sure the gelling agent was a mixture of sodium hydroxide and
>stearic acid but I forgot the proportions. It formed a gel and it burned
>clean (why shouldn't it, being ethanol).

Sounds a bit similar to the method of gelling petroleum with sodium
palmate!

AJH

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Sep 16 04:32:09 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: August Stove Course: CO emissions
In-Reply-To: <010701c24b66$ae7bede0$d21e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <8qhbouoipsvnt5bcf04j9rgaam84t5ukob@4ax.com>

On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 05:04:52 -0700, "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
wrote:

>
>It was only on the last day that I could predict what effect feeding the
>wood into the stove would have on the amount of CO flying up the chimney.
>Very small changes tending the fire resulted in large changes in CO. We saw
>numbers in the thousands (parts per million) which very quickly could go
>down to the teens. Putting a stick on the fire could shoot the numbers up
>hundreds of points. I was truly amazed at the variability.

I wonder if these large excursions of CO in the flue are a method of
defining batch or serial batch loading as opposed to continuous
metered fuel feed.

This high CO at burnout and after loading is what I have observed, in
my case with a long interval between reloading (and often then
quenching the char at end) it is not a big concern. I have considered
ways of mitigating it.

You may now appreciate that the constant cross section IDD stove
avoids this as, though batch loaded, its output offgas composition
remains constant whilst in char forming mode.
>
>I intended that we would try to test the following approaches to lowering CO
>emissions:
>
>1.) Have smoke go through coals

Why? The coals will still need to burn and thence will require excess
air in the stove part.

>2.) Force smoke to scrape against surfaces above 1200F.

I guess you mean flue gas rather than smoke, or are you intending the
surface to feed back some energy to the "smoke" to burn it out?

>3.) Natural draft is used to create turbulence

;-)

>4.) Preheat primary or secondary air

I do not think it likely you can afford the dubious benefit of this
with only natural draught, unless it also serves another purpose.

>5.) Increase the time that fire is inside combustion chamber

Yes

>6.) Keep the portion of the wood that is not burning cool

This to prevent "runaway" pyrolysis upsetting the fuel:air ratio?
>
>And we did experiment with several of these ideas.
>
>IDEA ONE We built a experimental stove in which the hot flue gases went down
>into the bed of coals on a screen before passing under a fence and going up
>a 24" insulated chimney. We agreed that: 1.) more draft is better than less
>draft in cutting CO

Yes both from excess air and turbulence

> 2.) that the coals need to be close to the fire for
>good performance

Otherwise heat losses are too great and they cannot sustain burning in
the low oxygen flue gas?

> 3.) the screen has to have 1/4" holes or larger to remain
>unclogged. Whether the approach has merit needs more experimentation to
>determine.
>
>IDEA THREE We built four types of vanes placed in the Rocket chimney above
>the fire to see if we could create turbulence. We agreed that: 1) Because
>the air in the chimney has low velocity the small vanes we created did not
>make much swirl or mixing. A larger vane set up was too large and suppressed
>the draft creating a lot of smoke. Needs more work...

Am I correct in thinking the vanes were creating turbulence in the
flue i.e. post the combustion area? If so why? creating turbulence
uses power, consuming power in the chimney is wasted. That is why I do
not advocate chimney dampers, if you need a chimney damper it means
your air controls are inadequate and you are squandering air movement
power that should be available to create turbulence in the combustion
zone.
>
>
>And I'm already looking forward to continuing this fascinating look at CO.
>Then on to particulates!

Well done so far, I will be interested in how you measure
particulates, I remain interested in both the unburnt soot and
hydrocarbons and worried about the significance of small fly ash
particles (which seem unlikely in your natural draught stoves).

AJH

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Sep 16 05:40:09 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Fuel and much more from cattails
In-Reply-To: <143919415.20020916074221@ecoharmony.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEIPCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Grant:
Thanks for this most interesting lead to a fascinating web site.

Stovers:
1. Not everyone on this list will know that Grant is the main worker on
the Hedon (Household Energy) list, which I recommend strongly. I still need
to talk about their interesting side meeting at the WSSD in Johannesburg (or
hope Grant will start).
2. Hedon coordinates other development groups, amongst which is GTZ -
which is behind Richard's work.
3. The Typha plants seem to have great potential for stoves (and many
other) uses.
4. The site also contains good links to the Jatropha tree - with much
potential for oil production. Jatropha has been mentioned before on our
list - but not the Typha.

Richard Henning:
1. You seem to be the main instigator of the "Bagani" web site. I do not
know if you are aware of our "stoves" group - but you clearly have been
active in stoves and other similar development activities. This is to
encourage you to tell us more about your work and especially anything new
and exciting about your work on stoves and ties to the plant species you
have been working on. Other questions are sure to follow. Congratulations
on a very fine web site.

Ron ("stoves" coordinator - our archives are at www.crest.org)

-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Ballard-Tremeer [mailto:stoves@ecoharmony.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 11:42 PM
To: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Fuel and much more from cattails

There are many Typha species - Typha angustifolia and Typha latifolia
in Europe, and Typha australis in the tropics - A great webpage for
information on the energetic use of Typha is www.typha.net

Another plant with very interesting properties for provision of
Household Energy is Jatropha (Physic Nuts) - www.jatropha.org

Regards

Grant

Sunday, September 15, 2002, 1:33:17 PM, you wrote:

ADK> I would like to know the botanical name of cattail.

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Mon Sep 16 06:40:39 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Re: Fw: RETORT FOR CARBONISING COCONUT SHELLS - REG.
In-Reply-To: <012f01c25c25$ac85cb30$6601a8c0@tommain>
Message-ID: <3D85ECC0.FE9DEE8D@ca.inter.net>

Dear Andrew

AJH wrote:
>
..del...
>
> I do not know the actual composition of coconut shells (nor the husks,
> is this what coir is made from?) however if it can be considered
> similar to wood and composed of a mixture of cellulose, hemicellulose
> and lignin then we can expect the hemicellulose and lignin to start
> pyrolising at <200C and the cellulose at 270C. I would expect a high
> volatiles char made at this low temperature to yield about 45% of the
> dry weight in a retort system.
>
A temperature of 300 C = 570F would seem to be OK.
Ordinary mild steel, such as would be had in 45 gallon
drums, doesn't scale significantly until well above
700F.

As a starting point, it would thus seem that there is
no need for retort materials to be anything more
expensive than mild steel.

Does anybody have strong feelings to the contrary?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Sep 16 06:46:27 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Fuel and much more from cattails
Message-ID: <000001c25d92$de3949e0$9e50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Mr.Seaver,
About 40 years ago, India was in desperate need of food and Indian
scientists scourged the world for species that would give high yield. I was
a part of this effort and have seen with my own eyes that the yield levels
of uncultivated exotic species like buffalo gourd (starch), jojoba (oil),
Simaruba glauca(oil), Jatropha curcas(oil), Prosopis juliflora(fermentable
sugars), Parthenium argentatum (rubber), and many others were much inferior
to the traditional crop species that we were already cultivating in India.
Some of the introductions from the American continent, namely potato,
tapioca, peanut, chilli, tomato, maize, Ipomoea batatas, Phaseolus vulgaris
and Hevia brasiliensis proved to be high yielding and were accepted by the
Indian farmers already in the 19th century. The only plant that showed some
promise but did not come up to expectations was the grain amaranth. Even
highly bred hybrids of grain amaranth failed to give higher yield than the
cereals or grain legumes. There is no doubt that the wild plants survive
under conditions of total neglect and under conditions under which the
cultivated species would not survive. But once we decide to raise the wild
species for their economically important products, they have to be grown as
a monoculture, their propagules have to be planted, the mature plants have
to be harvested, the produce has to be threshed, winnowed, cleaned or
processed etc. In short we "cultivate" them. Under cultivated conditions,
the traditional cultivated crop species give higher yield. This is a proven
fact.
You have also mentioned aquatic plants like Spirulina and duckweed. They
need special conditions to grow. For instance, Spirulina is raised in ponds
that have a pH of 10 and above. Even frogs cannot survive in such water. If
it is grown in ordinary water, other algae would start growing in these
ponds and crowd Spirulina out. Duckweed grows in water contaminated with
human fecal matter. If it is grown in ordinary water, other aquatic plants,
including algae would compete with duckweed and crowd it out. Secondly,
duckweed grows only on the surface of water ( two dimensional growth),
whereas terrestrial plants grow in a three dimensional space. The fresh
weight of duckweed is very high but it is mainly water (almost 95%). On a
dry weight basis it is not a very high yielding plant.
Yours A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: gasification@crest.org <gasification@crest.org>
Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: Fuel and much more from cattails

>On Sun, Sep 15, 2002 at 05:03:17PM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
>> I would like to know the botanical name of cattail.
>
> There are several species, most of the work has been done with Typha
>latifolia, Typha angustifolia, and Typha x gluca, a natural hybrid of the
other
>two species.
>
>(snip)
>
>> There is also a general point that I wish to make about all
uncultivated species of plants. Not having been subjected to any plant
breeding input, wild species generally turn out to be lower yielding than
species bred for high yield. Thus, as far tuber or rhizome yield is
concerned, I doubt if any wild plant can beat cultivated varieties of
tapioca, potato or the yams.
>
> Don't kid yourself, just offhand I can think of a number of wild plants
that
>far outproduce cultivated plants. In fact, one passage I quoted in another
reply
>here said that "the productivity of cattails exceeds that of high yielding
corn
>by about 50 percent." Have you ever looked at duckweed, for example, or
>spirulina algae? Pretty amazing stuff -- extremely high protein (and very
high
>quality protein at that) and tremendous yields. There are many others --
native
>US prairie plants that have higher yields and higher nutrient content than
any
>of the tame fodder crops. Mesquite trees, Siberian Pea Shrub, etc.
> Not to mention the fact that these "crops" don't require any tillage,
>planting, fertilizers, herbicide, insecticides, or fungicides -- they just
>grow. So-called "modern" agriculture still has a lot to learn from Mother
>Nature.
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>

From jmdavies at xsinet.co.za Mon Sep 16 11:20:25 2002
From: jmdavies at xsinet.co.za (john)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Need for Simple Coal Stoves
Message-ID: <002401c25db5$f67ac560$fa6b27c4@default>

Greetings All,

I recently had the pleasure of meeting with Paul Anderson for a weekend and
then met Ron Larson. in Johannesburg, where I had the opportunity of
demonstrating that a simple coal burning stove can be lit as quickly as
bio-mass and burn as cleanly.

During the weekend we jointly experienced the need for
better ways of burning coal for heating and cooking, in those areas where
bio-mass is scarce and expensive, and bituminous coal is cheap and
plentiful.

A visit to Embalendle Township at dusk brought this reality to us. Some
local people demonstrated the lighting and burning of the embaula to us.
These primitive stoves ( 20 Li. tin punched full of holes )
could be seen burning all around the town, spewing out thick acrid smoke.
We also noticed that many of the houses had chimneys, but alas the
emissions from these was no better than the embaula.

It may surprise you that this town is electrified. The people use
this for lighting only, and are adamant that heating by coal remains a much
cheaper option. The irony of this is that a large portion of the coal energy
is wasted, and further much of this is turned into the worst kind of
smoke pollution.

These meetings encouraged me to do further development. I am pleased to say
that the concept model, which was a long narrow tube which stood a meter
tall, Has developed into a tincanium stove, which can be used for cooking,
with the height being greatly reduced.

The stove in it's present form takes a charge of 500g of small coal and is
"top lit" using about 30g of kerosene wetted charcoal. Apart from a little
smoke during lighting, cooking heat is attained within 1 minute. The coal
is pyrolised in the same way as top lit bio-mass. while the flame front
proceeds downwards the remaining char is partially gasified, a hot cooking
flame lasting for about 50 minutes has been achieved after which the
remaining hot coals slowly burn to their end. Not much heat is generated at
this stage, but is can be speeded up by adding a chimney. The cooking heat
is controlled by regulating the secondary air above the coal bed.

The flame is rather yellow at this stage with the odd occurrence of a little
smoke. I feel that more turbulent mixing of the air and gas above the coal
bed will improve the flame and generate more heat. I intend to try out a
simple ventury mixing device in the hope of improving the flame quality.

I am confident that a "simmer cooking heat" can be achieved during this
stage by using a larger diameter " burner can", but that primary air control
would be needed to regulate the cooking heat during the flaming stage.

Further trials will be carried out until something is achieved which can
compete with the "embaula" in all respects for cooking and household
heating.

I believe that this can be developed into a variety of stoves that will
reduce
coal consumption and eliminate smoke.

Best wishes to all at "Stoves".

John Davies,
Secunda,
South Africa.

From yark at u.washington.edu Mon Sep 16 11:47:22 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Need for Simple Coal Stoves
In-Reply-To: <002401c25db5$f67ac560$fa6b27c4@default>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0209161245390.15502@hymn14.u.washington.edu>

John,

Second the need for coal stoves.

I have just finished crunching some data on coal burning emissions. I tried to approximate a range of realistic burning conditions and I looked at 5 different coals. If burned without attention (no chimney etc) coal can be WAY worse than wood, at least in terms of PM (particulate matter) emissions.

To compare-- wood puts out about 1-5 g particulate matter/kg fuel. Coal puts out ~10-20 g/kg and can be up to 80 g/kg. These are not just my tests but also data I have compiled from others as well. But I have reproduced the whole range. Coal type appears to have greater effect than burning conditions-- argues for testing a variety of fuels when examining stove.

Unlike emissions from, say, power generation, the PM is mostly carbon. That means it CAN be burnt out, so a good stove could help. I still find ~5% metals, ions etc; that part would not be solved by better combustion, but would require exhaust treatment.

I have just got back from presenting this at an aerosol conference in Taiwan, and am fighting off a bad bug I caught on the airplane. I will write more on specific results later, if people are interested, and when I get some headspace.

cheers
Tami

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Sep 16 12:59:26 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: SIMPLE CHARCOAL MAKER... SMOKY?
In-Reply-To: <012f01c25c25$ac85cb30$6601a8c0@tommain>
Message-ID: <lb9cousksnf8hg8ftlp47t9dsjhs2p9a54@4ax.com>

On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:16:59 -0600, "Tom Reed" <tombreed@attbi.com>
wrote:

>Andrew and All:
>
>Sounds simple, but smoky. Is there a way to burn off the smoke?

What sounds smoky? The method Ken mentioned is not smoky because the
offgas is continually flared, the rotation of the drum establishes
whether air sufficient for primary combustion is supplied or not. As
the drum is rotated, with the only opening upward, the evolution of
offgas prevents air reaching the wood. The flare is thus a diffuse
flame around the slit. As pyrolysis proceeds and offgas reduces then
air can cause a convection path around the slit and into the drum.
Before this happens more twigs are added. On the larger scale there
can be more smoke as the diffuse flame cannot access enough air before
it becomes quenched. I will see if I can find some old photos to scan.
>
>In general charcoal is a clean fuel for the user, but the smoke has been
>donated to the atmosphere during making it. "Polution solution by dilution"
>is the old way, but we'd like to find a better.

I agree that conventional clamp or ring kiln production is both
wasteful and polluting. I believe the modified pit method can be clean
but will always be wasteful. I also know that modern clean industrial
plant such as simcoa could co generate charcoal and power (they did
not because natura gas was available to do the power job cheaply). I
believe it is already possible to make charcoal and use the offgas in
simple farm scale processes, maybe even small industrial kilns. I am
also confident we can adapt larger scale clean charcoal making to farm
scale AND co generate power soon.

AJH

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Sep 16 13:16:39 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Gel Fuel
In-Reply-To: <20020912123436.GA5471@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <l5gcou4pv332i92qvvu6casg1ruuelj37f@4ax.com>

On Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:49:57 +0100, "Gavin Gulliver-Goodall"
<Gavin@roseplac.worldonline.co.uk> wrote:

>
>The carbohydrate in the Grain will be converted to alcohol but the proteins
>remain.

If we are talking yeast fermentation then I think only the small
subset of carbohydrates called sugars get converted. This is why you
entice barley to start germinating on the malting floor before killing
the grain with hot water, the germination mobilises the sugars from
their seasonal store of starch.
>
>The question is should we be feeding grazing animals high protein
>supplements?

Is it? I would have thought once the decision had been made to ferment
ethanol from the grain, for whatever reason, it is sensible to utilise
the by product, in this case brewers grains, as animal feed. I can
vouch it is a good feed as we used it on our milking herd in the mid
70s.
>
>_ at least grain derived is better than animal derived as we had here in the
>UK until various food scares and foot & Mouth knocked some sense back into
>the farming industry- this included Agrochemical manufacturers and
>legislators and is NOT a knock on British Farmers who are working in a
>strangely contorted market.

I'll throw another twopenneth in here as this is a bugbear of mine.
Both fmd and bse were beyond the control of any british farmers. The
fmd was allowed into the country,probably by lax customs procedures
(which I note do not exist in US), and was spread widely into the
animal population because it was not reported by one individual, the
resulting debacle was exacerbated by an enfeebled state veterinary
sector and slow response in preventing animal movement by the minister
for agriculture.

BSE almost certainly arose through incorporating mbm in milk
replacement for calves. MBM had been a compulsory part of animal feed
in WW2. Farmers had no legal right to know the contents of a
proprietary feed other than its chemical (proximate?) analysis and so
could make no judgement. As I said the problem did not seem to arise
until the prion infected material was used to feed immune-naive
animals.

>For this list surely the question is more to do with available feedstock,
>and best conversion efficiency.
>Is Wood Methanol lower energy to manufacture than grain Ethanol?
>Kg/kg which fuel has the best CV and burning characteristics?
>Can it be made locally? Safely?
>Should the grain be cooked on methanol stoves and eaten by people? Or should
>wood be cooked over ethanolstoves....? -to sell the charcoal ;-)

I always thought ethanol was a clean fuel, I am glad Mr.Wilson
straightened me out on that. In the stoves context I cannot see a high
utility fuel like ethanol ever being competitive against straight
biomass. If we affluent countries are pushing for it as a viable
transport fuel I cannot see it being used for cooking in a growing
economy, let alone standing the distillation costs.

AJH

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Sep 16 14:09:17 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Need for Simple Coal Stoves
In-Reply-To: <002401c25db5$f67ac560$fa6b27c4@default>
Message-ID: <006f01c25dce$78524960$ed86fea9@home>

Dear John

You are hitting the nail on the head. Good air control and sufficient draft
can make stoves burn small coal fires far more efficiently than these
ridiculous punctured cans.

The Midrand Municiality is promoting an 'improved mbaula' which has a 358mm
dia outer can (mop pail) with a few perforations that has the accidental
effect of providing a little preheated secondary air to the main (large)
fire. It burns with less smoke but they don't seem to realize why and it is
not optimized. They are being sold in Midrand townships for R150 ($15).
The three cans required are R80 from the factory.

I think we could cut the township smoke emissions of the Gauteng region in
half if we get better stove to them on a large scale.

I have finished drawing out our latest grate today for mass production by
laser It is pretty efficient (very low material waste) and unassembled
(flat cut piece) will cost something like $2.50 if I am lucky. I may have a
price this week. It could be built into an existing mbaula I think with
little extra effort.

Regards
Crispin

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Sep 16 15:15:02 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
In-Reply-To: <17qzm5-1fSmuWC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIAEJGCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

Reinhard (not Richard) has kindly forwarded this additional information
about Jatropha. There was not as much but still good information about the
typha species at the same web site.
Below this is a second message to myself that I hope Reinhard will not mind
my also posting.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Reinhard Hennin
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:25 AM
To: Ron Larson; Grant Ballard-Tremeer; moderator biofuels-biz
Subject: Jatropha oil as household energy

Dear Ron, Grant and Keith,

Elmar Stumpf of the Hohenheim University in Germany finished the development
of a pure plant oil cooker. It will be field testing in Guatemala during the
next year.

More infos on

http://jatropha.org/documents/stumpf-kocher-02-09.pdf

Kind regards

Reinhard Henning

B. Second message:

""Thank you for the flowers, Ron

I started working on biogas in Ivory Coast within the German cooperation
(GTZ) since 1981. Then I started working on Jatropha in Mali, which is a
very promising integrated approach. But not yet adopted by the big
development agencies. UNDP is now starting to integrate Jatropha into their
activities of the dissemination of multipurpose energy platforms in West
Africa (www.ptfm.net).

The use of Typha as a source of household energy is quite new.

For Jatropha and Typha I try to put the essential informations into the web.
The requests for information from all over the world convince me that this
aproach is worth to continue.

You may follow the development in the news section of the two websites

Kind regards

Reinhard Henning

"Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net> schrieb:
> Grant:
> Thanks for this most interesting lead to a fascinating web site.
> <snip>

--
bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany
Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: henning@bagani.de
internet: www.bagani.de

From ronallarson at qwest.net Mon Sep 16 15:16:28 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Stove Design Project
In-Reply-To: <3D85D0F3.E4E42984@mail.uct.ac.za>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFICEJGCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Hi Graham

1. I am taking the liberty of sending your request on to our full list. I
hope you will respond back though ASAP on your meaning of the word "cofire"
below.

2. I don't know the difficulty in your getting to Swaziland, but I would
recommend working with Crispin at New Dawn Engineering, who has a stove that
I believe should fill your needs quite well. Look back in our "stoves"
archives over the past 2 weeks and you will see plenty to pique you interest
I think. there has been little study yet of this type - and it is likely to
be able to burn as many fuels as any you can find. Crispin can direct you
to GTZ in Pretoria - and you should start with Graham, Agnes, and Marlis
there. I like this stove because it has good air control (and can probably
be improved - as only a few models have thus far been produced).

3. In today's "stoves" archives you will see another South African
reporting in on his testing to better fire with coal in South Africa.
Possibly John Davies in Secunda would appreciate some assistance in his
work - which we know to be of high importance in South Africa - although not
possibly meeting your desire to work with different fuels. However, I am
sure that if John is successfully combusting coal, he can work with many
other fuels as well. Again this is good timing, as John showed just a few
weeks ago what seems to have been a much different design.

4. There are several student groups doing stoves testing now in the US.
If you do not hear from them, please write again and I will send some
addresses. Perhaps you can describe what testing capabilities you have in
Cape Town.

to others: The very best book I have ever seen on PV design came from the
University of Cape Town. I anticipate that Graham will do a bang up job.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: UCT Student - HPBGRA001 [mailto:HPBGRA001@mail.uct.ac.za]
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 6:39 AM
To: ronallarson@qwest.net
Subject: Stove Design Project

Hello,
My name is Graham Hepburn and I am busy studying my final year of
Mechanincal Engineering at the University of Cape Town. My Thesis topic
is to research stove developments and then design, build and test a
stove that uses multiple fuels, and aimed at the rural developing
market. I have researched quite thoroughly on the internet, but have
not found much information on cofire cookstoves. Do you have any
information regarding this topic, or suggestions for people to contact.
I would grateful for your assisstance.

Yours sincerely
Graham Hepburn

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Sep 16 17:18:15 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: coppicing promotion
Message-ID: <000301c25deb$a5ed8660$1756c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Ron,
This refers to your exchange of messages with Ray. I would like to add that
bamboo is a very high yielding arborescent species. We are experimenting
with bamboo planted at a spacing of 3m X 1m (about 3300 clumpls per
hectare). Most bamboo experts consider this to be too high a population
(the scientific word should be phytolation) density. At this spacing,
each clump has on an average 21 poles, 7 of each age group. The poles that
attain the age of three years are harvested. The clump produces 7 new shoots
every year. Since the main stem of bamboo is an underground rhizome, the
poles that we harvest are really only branches. It is thus a type of
coppicing. We get about 25,000 poles every year and if you weighed it along
with the branches, each pole has an average dry weight of 7 kg, which
calculates to an annual yield of 175 tonnes of dry woody biomass every year.
In India, the dead are traditionally carried on a bamboo bier and cremated
along with the bier. Therefore there is a continuous demand for bamboo
poles, which sell for about Rs. 40 per pole in the cities (1 US$= Rs. 48).
We have persuaded 100 farmers around Phaltan (our field station) to plant
100 bamboo seedlings each. We provide the seedlings free of cost and we
give the farmers a buy-back guarantee. We expect to get annually 70,000
poles, after a gestation period of about 6 to 7 years. We are not
undertakers, but want to treat the bamboo poles with a biocide, to increase
their outdoor life to about 20 years. Such bamboos can be used for outdoor
constructions like scaffoldings for vines, fencing, greenhouses, nethouses,
cattle corrals etc. Such constructions cost just 10% as much as those made
from tubular or angular steel.
Yours A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: raywije@eureka.lk <raywije@eureka.lk>; owen@africaonline.co.ke
<owen@africaonline.co.ke>
Cc: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>
Date: Sunday, September 15, 2002 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: coppicing promotion

>
>Stovers:
>
> On Thursday, Sept 12, Ray Wijewardene gave a nice description and plea for
>more attention to fuelwood plantations. This is to say a bit more about
Ray
>and then ask some questions.
>
>1. At the Karves-Arti sponsored stove conference in Pune several years
ago,
>Ray gave a talk rather like his summary on coppicing practices in Sri
Lanka.
>We had a (not-enough) chance to talk on our bus trips around Pune and I
>think I can talk for all there at Pune that we were very impressed by Ray.
>Ray is a retired businessman who I believe (hope Ray will correct me) had a
>successful long-term worldwide business in manufacturing and selling small
>IC-powered tractors and small garden implements. He stays active being an
>advisor now to a number of Sri Lankan government agencies - especially in
>the energy area. Ray is probably one of our best experts on manufacturing
>and rural sales - and (I think) our best on fuelwood production.
>
>Question #1:
> You have stated a preference for methanol over ethanol - but I wonder if
>you can state a preference for methanol over wood and/or charcoal (and if
so
>what type of village or user economics are you thinking about?
>
>Question #2 re your national program called GROWING OUR OWN ENERGY:
> a. You used the term "NF trees" What "does NF" mean?
> b. You called for a spacing of about 150 cm between trees. How critical
>is this distance - and do you stagger the spacings?
> c. When you lop off branches (coppice) at 40-50 mm diameter - is this
done
>every year?
> d. What is the annual production in kg per tree or per hectare? If sold
>per kg in Sri Lanka - what is that price?
> e. Are these statistics achieved with irrigation?
> f. How long after planting before production can begin?
> g. Is it much better or not to start plants in a nursery?
> h. What are you favorite tree species for different rainfall or
irrigation
>conditions?
> i. Are there any nut or fruit species that can provide a co-product to
>improve the economics?
> j. You said "The major new market for fuel-wood is for the
>gasifiers ...." Is there an "old" market for cookstove use? What are the
>relative expenses of electricity production from gasifiers and imported
oil?
> k. Why do we not see more coppice production around the world? What have
>been the major difficulties in getting it started in Sri Lanka?
> l. I receive a free e-mail publication from http://agroforester.com
>(and when I just went to look at that site found this:
>http://agroforester.com/overstory/ovbook.html (a book with a special deal
>that ends today)
> I remember reading a few years ago what is probably now the chapter on
>coppicing. Do you like this site or have any other favorite websites to
>learn about the benefits of coppicing?
> m. we have recently talked about bamboo as a stove fuel. Can we consider
>this a form of coppicing?
>
> n. Any other things to add - given these questions above? Any aditional
>benefits we should be discussing
>
>One final comment: Coppiced branches are the perfect fuel in my opiniuon
>for charcoal-making stoves. As I know such is being produced in Sri
lanka -
>can you add anything on the Sri Lankan stove production?
>
> Ray - Thanks very much for periodically reminding us of this most
important
>aspect of making biomass cookstoves a sustainable activity.
>
>Ron
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.ht
m
>
>

From dstill at epud.net Mon Sep 16 19:19:51 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: CO emissions response to Andrew
Message-ID: <003601c25d6a$62da85c0$651e6c0c@default>

Dear Andrew,

Great to hear from you.

Batch loading has advantages and a few disadvantages. I hear from Crispin
that batch loading can be much preferred but our experience in Central
America is that pushing the sticks into the fire, as into a three stone
fire, is traditional. I don't think that we'll find that batch loading is
necessarily lower in CO emissions, my very limited experience so far is that
even smoke free fires can be spewing a lot of CO into the room. It would be
great if the money gods were to give each of us a combustion analyzer...
This is a complicated problem...to tell when the stove is really clean
burning is not evident to eyes or nose."

I wanted to try various clean burning strategies in the August class, like:
>
>1.) Have smoke go through coals

Why? The coals will still need to burn and thence will require excess
air in the stove part.

"The Rocket stove forces a lot of air through the coals so that they are
very hot. Directing all hot flue gases to go down through the bed of coals
might force the uncombusted particles to catch fire, i.e., downdraft through
coals. A hot bed of coals under the fire is in the worst place to scrub hot
flue gases, they rise up and away."

>2.) Force smoke to scrape against surfaces above 1200F.

I guess you mean flue gas rather than smoke, or are you intending the
surface to feed back some energy to the "smoke" to burn it out?

" Directing unburnt combustibles between two glowing very hot surfaces (or
variations of same idea) should help to ignite them."

>4.) Preheat primary or secondary air

I do not think it likely you can afford the dubious benefit of this
with only natural draught, unless it also serves another purpose.

"Larry agrees."

>5.) Increase the time that fire is inside combustion chamber

Yes

>6.) Keep the portion of the wood that is not burning cool

This to prevent "runaway" pyrolysis upsetting the fuel:air ratio?

"We want to burn all wood at very high temperatures. Having too much air
isn't a problem, I think, if it doesn't cool the fire."
>
>And we did experiment with several of these ideas.
>
>IDEA ONE We built a experimental stove in which the hot flue gases went
down
>into the bed of coals on a screen before passing under a fence and going up
>a 24" insulated chimney. We agreed that: 1.) more draft is better than less
>draft in cutting CO

Yes both from excess air and turbulence

> 2.) that the coals need to be close to the fire for
>good performance

Otherwise heat losses are too great and they cannot sustain burning in
the low oxygen flue gas?

"Tests show that there is plenty of oxygen in the flue gas even at the top
of the combustion chimney. As you say, the coals sustain burning if close to
the wood, not if too far away."

.
>
>IDEA THREE We built four types of vanes placed in the Rocket chimney above
>the fire to see if we could create turbulence. We agreed that: 1) Because
>the air in the chimney has low velocity the small vanes we created did not
>make much swirl or mixing. A larger vane set up was too large and
suppressed
>the draft creating a lot of smoke. Needs more work...

"I agree, except that: the easiest way to produce less smoke in a Rocket
stove is to make the insulated chimney above the fire higher. But the excess
draft created by the taller chimney pulls too much air past the sticks
lowering exit temperatures. Bad for cooking efficiency...So, using up the
excess draft by tumbling hot flue gases in the chimney seemed a possible way
to make the taller chimney (which gives more time for combustion to occur)
practical."
>
>
>Best,

Dean

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Sep 16 23:20:23 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Need for Simple Coal Stoves
In-Reply-To: <002401c25db5$f67ac560$fa6b27c4@default>
Message-ID: <26ldous4mmvd235sciuirsrsl88s4u2d54@4ax.com>

Again I sent this as a personal reply when I meant it for stoves.
On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:15:42 +0200, "john" <jmdavies@xsinet.co.za>
wrote:

>
>It may surprise you that this town is electrified. The people use
>this for lighting only, and are adamant that heating by coal remains a much
>cheaper option. The irony of this is that a large portion of the coal energy
>is wasted, and further much of this is turned into the worst kind of
>smoke pollution.

This seems an ideal place to try a fan to help the burning. I did some
similar experiments with this following a visit by Ronal. Coal seems
to lend itself to a bit of turbulence and forced air to gasify it, the
CO produced then acting as a support fuel to incinerate the offgas
volatiles. The power requirement would be of the same order as a small
light bulb. Top lighting seems to be the key to cutting early
emissions. I cannot see a solution to mitigating the mineral acids
likely to be formed other than mixing in reagents with the fuel.

I imagine there is a larger differential in price between electrical
energy and thermal energy than here so the householders are sure to be
right about costs. However I could envisage the electrical costs of a
forced draught being repaid in the heat currently lost as PICs up the
flue.

AJH

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Sep 17 05:28:35 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
Message-ID: <000001c25e50$e7e47960$6852c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

I saw Mr. Elmar Stumpf's stove in December 1999, when I visited Hohenheim
University. It was modified from a commercial pressure stove that normally
uses kerosene as fuel. In this stove, the tank holds ordinary vegetable oil
instead of kerosene. This oil is driven upwards through a thin metal tube
by pumping air into the oil tank. This tube is made into a coil, which is
placed above the flame. The heat of the flame converts the oil in the coil
into vapour. This vapour is carried downwards by a descending limb of the
tubing, and burnt in the burner after mixing it with air. The stove gave a
nice blue flame. The stove still had some problems at that time, like the
oil pipe getting choked by nonvolatile residues in the oil. . I was hoping
that Mr. Stumpf would be able to attend the Biofuels and Cookstoves
conference held in Pune in Nov. 2000, but he was unable to attend. Jatropha
curcas grows wild in India. Its seed is harvested by nomads and tribals and
sold in weekly village markets to merchants. Some farmers have planted this
species on a plantation scale, but as a crop it cannot compete with hybrid
castor, which belongs to the same family. Under farm conditions, hybrid
castor produces almost 4 times as much oil as Jatropha. Jatropha oil is not
allowed to be used as edible oil. The oil per se is not toxic, but the seed
contains some nasty things that get extracted along with the oil. However
in comparison to the Jatopha seed that is collected and sold to merchants,
the quantity of oil that is sold as Jatropha oil is negligible. One must
therefore suspect that relatively large quantities of Jatropha oil are mixed
with edible oils as an adulterant.
A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: Reinhard.Henning@t-online.de <Reinhard.Henning@t-online.de>
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 4:43 AM
Subject: RE: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)

>Stovers:
>
> Reinhard (not Richard) has kindly forwarded this additional information
>about Jatropha. There was not as much but still good information about the
>typha species at the same web site.
>Below this is a second message to myself that I hope Reinhard will not mind
>my also posting.
>
>Ron
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Reinhard Hennin
>Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:25 AM
>To: Ron Larson; Grant Ballard-Tremeer; moderator biofuels-biz
>Subject: Jatropha oil as household energy
>
>
>Dear Ron, Grant and Keith,
>
>Elmar Stumpf of the Hohenheim University in Germany finished the
development
>of a pure plant oil cooker. It will be field testing in Guatemala during
the
>next year.
>
>More infos on
>
>http://jatropha.org/documents/stumpf-kocher-02-09.pdf
>
>Kind regards
>
>Reinhard Henning
>
>
>B. Second message:
>
>""Thank you for the flowers, Ron
>
>I started working on biogas in Ivory Coast within the German cooperation
>(GTZ) since 1981. Then I started working on Jatropha in Mali, which is a
>very promising integrated approach. But not yet adopted by the big
>development agencies. UNDP is now starting to integrate Jatropha into their
>activities of the dissemination of multipurpose energy platforms in West
>Africa (www.ptfm.net).
>
>The use of Typha as a source of household energy is quite new.
>
>For Jatropha and Typha I try to put the essential informations into the
web.
>The requests for information from all over the world convince me that this
>aproach is worth to continue.
>
>You may follow the development in the news section of the two websites
>
>Kind regards
>
>Reinhard Henning
>
>
>
>"Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net> schrieb:
>> Grant:
>> Thanks for this most interesting lead to a fascinating web site.
>> <snip>
>
>--
>bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany
>Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: henning@bagani.de
>internet: www.bagani.de
>
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.ht
m
>
>

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Sep 17 06:40:24 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
In-Reply-To: <000001c25e50$e7e47960$6852c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <20020917143806.GA22868@cybershamanix.com>

On Tue, Sep 17, 2002 at 07:12:15PM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> I saw Mr. Elmar Stumpf's stove in December 1999, when I visited Hohenheim
> University. It was modified from a commercial pressure stove that normally
> uses kerosene as fuel. In this stove, the tank holds ordinary vegetable oil
> instead of kerosene. This oil is driven upwards through a thin metal tube
> by pumping air into the oil tank. This tube is made into a coil, which is
> placed above the flame. The heat of the flame converts the oil in the coil
> into vapour. This vapour is carried downwards by a descending limb of the
> tubing, and burnt in the burner after mixing it with air. The stove gave a
> nice blue flame. The stove still had some problems at that time, like the
> oil pipe getting choked by nonvolatile residues in the oil. . I was hoping
> that Mr. Stumpf would be able to attend the Biofuels and Cookstoves
> conference held in Pune in Nov. 2000, but he was unable to attend. Jatropha
> curcas grows wild in India. Its seed is harvested by nomads and tribals and
> sold in weekly village markets to merchants. Some farmers have planted this
> species on a plantation scale, but as a crop it cannot compete with hybrid
> castor, which belongs to the same family. Under farm conditions, hybrid
> castor produces almost 4 times as much oil as Jatropha.

Do you have a source for those figures? Everything I've found says jatropha
gives about twice as much oil per acre as canola. See:
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Jatropha_curcas.html for
instance.

Or http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Andyrep at aol.com Tue Sep 17 06:42:09 2002
From: Andyrep at aol.com (Andyrep@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: ethanol gel in the real world
Message-ID: <153.142e2f88.2ab8985a@aol.com>

In a message dated 09/13/2002 3:13:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, owen@africaonline.co.ke writes:
And Crispin said:
"It is being bottled and sold at $0.25 a litre in Malawi, subsidized by the
World Bank. They told me it was unviable without the subsidy though I am
not sure why."
It sounds to me like we are crying out for information on the actual
real-world viability of this fuel, and the manufacturers and promoters are
conspicuously silent.
Can they please speak up??
Matthew Owen
Nairobi, Kenya

The WTO laments that there are not enough companies chasing after the 4 billion people in third world countries that earn less than $400 a year. More needs to be done to tap this revenue.
SO

Subsidize the creation of an industry/market where regular advertising does not reap the normal rewards. Have the governments help/support in promoting the alternative fuel, food, or farming method and then after establishing the "need" rape and pillage. OOPS sorry. I mean provide the product at a reasonable profit, with a wink and a nod from the offending governments. After all, movement of money and the taxes that follow are what makes a government move up the ladder.

Erik

From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Sep 17 06:57:10 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
In-Reply-To: <000001c25e50$e7e47960$6852c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIIEJOCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

1. Re the "Stumpf" stove description: Grant Ballard-Tremeer at the
Johannesburg HEDON meeting demostrated a stove that sounds somewhat similar,
but I believe was using kerosene. Grant controlled the stove pressure and
power output by controlling the heighth of the fuel container (the fuel
flowing through a thin plastic tube. It was still under development - but
might offer some advantages over a pumping arrangement. I hope Grant can
tell us whether it might be adaptable to vegetable oil.

2. At the WSSD, I talked at length with a Jatropha proponent wanting to set
up a large Jatropha "farm" for a bio-diesel facility in northern South
Africa. He was insistent that the farm should only employ very marginal,
non-irrigated land.
A.D.: Under these more difficult circumstances, would you think that
Jatropha is the correct plant - or are there varieties of the hybrid castor
that still might outperform the Jatropha?

3. I hope Reinhard can comment on both of the above.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 7:42 AM
To: Ron Larson
Cc: stoves@crest.org
Subject: Re: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)

<snip>

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Tue Sep 17 07:14:46 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Fuel and much more from cattails
In-Reply-To: <000001c25d92$de3949e0$9e50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <20020917151234.GB22868@cybershamanix.com>

On Mon, Sep 16, 2002 at 07:16:19PM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> a monoculture, their propagules have to be planted, the mature plants have
> to be harvested, the produce has to be threshed, winnowed, cleaned or
> processed etc. In short we "cultivate" them. Under cultivated conditions,
> the traditional cultivated crop species give higher yield. This is a proven
> fact.

Well, cattails at least, according to the research I quoted earlier, seem to
do a lot better in the wild. Of course, it's possible that the researchers
didn't spend enough time trying various cultivation techniques. You should also
realize that the yield figures were from Minnesota, where the growing season is
very short, in more Southern climes, yields would be much higher, although the
MN yeilds were pretty good, 50% better than high-yielding corn.

> You have also mentioned aquatic plants like Spirulina and duckweed. They
> need special conditions to grow.

Duckweed grows extremely well almost everywhere.

> For instance, Spirulina is raised in ponds
> that have a pH of 10 and above. Even frogs cannot survive in such water. If
> it is grown in ordinary water, other algae would start growing in these
> ponds and crowd Spirulina out.

True, but it was a mainstay food item for Native Americans for thousands of
years, in areas where it grew naturally, such as Mexico and the US
Southwest. Spirulina contains about 70% very high quality protein, containing 18
of the 22 amino acids and all of the essential amino acids. There are many areas
of the world where soil conditions are perfect for natural growth of this
algae. It can even be grown in fairly salty water, although not sea
water. "Spirulina's rapid growth means it yields 20 times more protein per acre
than soybeans, 40 times more than corn, and over 200 times more than
beef. Spirulina does not require fertile land."
http://www.spirulina.com/SPPEnvironment.html

> Duckweed grows in water contaminated with
> human fecal matter. If it is grown in ordinary water, other aquatic plants,
> including algae would compete with duckweed and crowd it out.

I don't know where you get that from. Duckweed grows very well in all the
lakes and ponds around here, and also where we lived in far northern Minnesota,
where there are hardly any people, in pure wilderness. Around here, of course,
it gets fed a lot of nutrients from farm and lawn runnoff.

> Secondly,
> duckweed grows only on the surface of water ( two dimensional growth),
> whereas terrestrial plants grow in a three dimensional space. The fresh
> weight of duckweed is very high but it is mainly water (almost 95%). On a
> dry weight basis it is not a very high yielding plant.

You really need to take another, closer look at duckweed. It's currently
being used by commercial aquaculturists to feed tilapia and catfish. They
harvest it, dry it, and pelletize. http://www.fishfarming.com/recirc.html
Some places are reporting yields of 183 metric tonnes/ha/year -- dry
weight. And it contains around 43% protein. Many places are getting at least
10-20 tons (dry) a hectare a year, which is nothing to sneeze at.

http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd7/1/3.htm

Duckweed is also extremely useful, as are cattails, in sewage
treatment and in bioremdiation.
http://www.oceanarks.org/LM/FramerLM.html

> Yours A.D.Karve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Cc: gasification@crest.org <gasification@crest.org>
> Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 8:04 AM
> Subject: Re: Fuel and much more from cattails
>
>
> >On Sun, Sep 15, 2002 at 05:03:17PM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> >> I would like to know the botanical name of cattail.
> >
> > There are several species, most of the work has been done with Typha
> >latifolia, Typha angustifolia, and Typha x gluca, a natural hybrid of the
> other
> >two species.
> >
> >(snip)
> >
> >> There is also a general point that I wish to make about all
> uncultivated species of plants. Not having been subjected to any plant
> breeding input, wild species generally turn out to be lower yielding than
> species bred for high yield. Thus, as far tuber or rhizome yield is
> concerned, I doubt if any wild plant can beat cultivated varieties of
> tapioca, potato or the yams.
> >
> > Don't kid yourself, just offhand I can think of a number of wild plants
> that
> >far outproduce cultivated plants. In fact, one passage I quoted in another
> reply
> >here said that "the productivity of cattails exceeds that of high yielding
> corn
> >by about 50 percent." Have you ever looked at duckweed, for example, or
> >spirulina algae? Pretty amazing stuff -- extremely high protein (and very
> high
> >quality protein at that) and tremendous yields. There are many others --
> native
> >US prairie plants that have higher yields and higher nutrient content than
> any
> >of the tame fodder crops. Mesquite trees, Siberian Pea Shrub, etc.
> > Not to mention the fact that these "crops" don't require any tillage,
> >planting, fertilizers, herbicide, insecticides, or fungicides -- they just
> >grow. So-called "modern" agriculture still has a lot to learn from Mother
> >Nature.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver
> >CyberShamanix
> >http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >
>

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From motie at paulbunyan.net Tue Sep 17 08:27:57 2002
From: motie at paulbunyan.net (Motie)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: ethanol gel in the real world
In-Reply-To: <153.142e2f88.2ab8985a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002301c25e68$3a1ec520$d2c3bfd1@m6o7s4>

----- Original Message -----
From: Andyrep@aol.com
To: stoves@crest.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: ethanol gel in the real world

The WTO laments that there are not enough companies chasing after the 4
billion people in third world countries that earn less than $400 a year.
More needs to be done to tap this revenue.
SO

Subsidize the creation of an industry/market where regular advertising does
not reap the normal rewards. Have the governments help/support in promoting
the alternative fuel, food, or farming method and then after establishing
the "need" rape and pillage. OOPS sorry. I mean provide the product at a
reasonable profit, with a wink and a nod from the offending governments.
After all, movement of money and the taxes that follow are what makes a
government move up the ladder.

Erik

Erik,
Ouch! I thought I was alone is my rather cynical view of
politics/politicians.
I think it may be a two-pronged assault. If, through hard work and
perseverance, one can manage to come up with an economically viable method
of meeting this "need", you will be regulated out of business while
Political insiders take over your industry.
You are simply viewed as a volunteer (unpaid) Research and Development
Department.

Motie

From jmdavies at xsinet.co.za Tue Sep 17 14:17:14 2002
From: jmdavies at xsinet.co.za (john)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:09 2004
Subject: Coal stoves needed 2
Message-ID: <001301c25e96$324b5ba0$b96a27c4@default>

Greetings,

The positive response to my coal stove is indeed gratifying. It will take a
few days of careful thought to work out some meaningful replies.

Tammy, I wish you a speedy recovery. Yes, I will be very interested in
emission figures from clean burning coal beds, as applicable to the type of
stoves we are dealing with. I added a crude ventury to the stove today, this
appears to have had the desired result of a cleaner flame.

Crispin, we must definitely get together sometime. Looks as if I must visit
the passport office, and pay you a visit, but first, a few prototypes need
building..

Ron, While coal and wood basically burn in the same way, the gasses appear
to be so different, that I wonder if the same stove could be used for both.
But this certainly doesn't mean that it cannot be done.

AJH, I am skeptical that the fan idea would be acceptable to the majority
"here", but this is a long story. I once again heard the story that throwing
some corn meal ( maize meal, mealie meal ) onto the glowing coals, makes it
safe to move into the house. This time salt was also mentioned. Are we
working with superstitions, or is there an explanation that modern science
is missing ???

Regards,
John Davies.

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Tue Sep 17 17:42:13 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
Message-ID: <000001c25eb8$2a3f9a80$5550c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Mr. Seaver,
I have conducted field experiments on both castor and Jatropha. I had
already mentioned in a previous E-mail, that Jatropha was tested rather
widely in India and was given up because it was not found to be as high
yielding as the traditional oil crops in India. I do not know how it
behaves in other countries, but under our agroclimatic and edaphic
conditions, Jatropha produces much more vegetative matter than fruits. At
harvest, one has to search for the occasional fruit hidden behind all the
foliage that this plant produces. It is found all over India as a wild
plant. India has some 25 uncultivated species of trees that yield
non-edible oil. The seed of the wild trees is collected by villagers and
sold to merchants attending the weekly village markets, but no farmer would
ever think of growing them as a crop, because all of them are lower yielding
than the cultivated oil plants such as peanut, soybean, sunflower,
safflower, sesame, various mustards and rapes, coconut, etc. Among the
seasonal oilseeds, hybrid castor is the highest yielding (2.5 tonnes oil per
ha), but it is not an edible oil. The highest yield of edible oil, also
about 2.5 tonnes per ha, is obtained from coconut. Oil palm, which yields 6
tonnes of oil per hectare in Malaysia, was tested and given up as low
yielding under Indian conditions.
Yours A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>; stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)

From ronallarson at qwest.net Tue Sep 17 20:28:15 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: Reuters story on Eritrean stove development
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEKFCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers:

A few days ago I signed up for the free environmental news service at
www.planetark.org (because I had found some of the best summaries of the
WSSD there). Yesterday's news included the following Reuter's article about
GTZ-sponsored stove work in Eritrea.

The GTZ stove researcher mentioned is Paul Mushamba - who I met in
Johanneburg - but too briefly. Can anyone provide an e-mail address for
Paul? I think we would all benefit from hearing more about the technical
details of this particular stove - which probably has a large (60 cm?)
ceramic griddle - at least that is the traditional mogogo material. At this
price, and from the description, I guess that most of the stove is ceramic
as well. But there is also a metal door mentioned - which intrigues me.
I have not previously seen such for Ethiopian and Eritrean enjira
("pancake") stoves.

Anyone able to help get this request to Paul? Grant? (The address I have
given for Agnes Klingshirn hasn't worked for me.)

This is another example of the lead that GTZ has on most development
agencies.

Ron

FEATURES - Eco-friendly stoves solve age old Eritrean problem
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Mail this story to a friend | Printer friendly version

ERITREA: September 17, 2002

ADI KUSHET, Eritrea - In a scene familiar across the tiny African state of
Eritrea, four-year-old Kessanet plays on the floor as her grandmother cooks
sour pancakes on a wood-fired stove.

But this home is different - the child's eyes are not watering from smoke
billowing from the fire and the stove is burning far fewer logs than
traditional stoves.
The air in the house is so clear that the walls remain white and guests can
watch a Chuck Norris kung fu video as they chat with the child's
grandmother, Kebedsh Habte, 57, without being troubled by choking smoke.

Eritrea is hoping a new stove design will do its part to fight the
deforestation and lung problems caused by cooking fires used by an estimated
2.5 billion people in the developing world, according to United Nations
estimates.

"I am free from smoke," Kebedsh said in her home in the village of Adi
Kushet, on the edge of Eritrea's capital Asmara. "I am free from lung
problems. I am free from eye problems."

According to United Nations figures, indoor cooking fires kill an estimated
2.5 million women and children a year through respiratory infections from
inhaling fumes.

Eritrean officials say that with their new stove design - which uses
insulation to conserve heat and a metal chimney to suck in air and funnel
smoke - Kebedsh, and other women like her, could cut the amount of wood used
by half.

The scheme aims to cut thousands of tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions by
burning often scarce supplies of wood more efficiently and save 366 kg (800
lbs) of firewood per household per year.

FUEL FRIENDLY

Paul Mushamba, energy adviser for the Programme for Biomass Energy
Conservation in Southern Africa, has been working on a project partly funded
by Germany to introduce a whole range of energy efficient clay and metal
stoves, cutting smoke output.

"Some of the designs are really low cost, which puts them within reach of
the very poor," he said.

Mushamba has spent three years visiting communities across southern Africa
and says the best choice of stove depends very much on locally available
materials and cost.

Often simply showing people how to make a small clay stove with walls,
replacing three large loose stones placed around a fire, can produce huge
wood savings for less than a dollar.

However, the challenge in Eritrea, as with many environmental projects
working with households in Africa, is to spread the impact from a few
villages to the entire country of 3.7 million.

The aim is to convert all stoves in rural areas into the new fuel-efficient
design, which means reaching out to 500,000 households, mostly in remote
areas of the Red Sea state of barren plains and parched mountain ranges.

But Eritrea is still struggling to repair the legacy of a 30-year liberation
struggle and a 1998-2000 border war with its much larger neighbour Ethiopia,
meaning progress is gradual.

"We are only in the early stages," said Afeworki Tesfazion, director of
energy research at the Eritrean Research and Training Centre. "We are yet to
reach many, many people."

The government says the cheap, simple and home-grown nature of the project
is just the kind to thrive in a country fiercely proud of its tradition of
self-reliance, although the scheme does receive funding from Britain.

But in a country where many people cannot read, spreading the idea is far
from easy. The government has so far trained 223 women to pass on
information about the stove by word of mouth to some of the remotest area of
the country, Afeworki said.

The stoves are designed to be affordable, costing 180 nakfa ($14) to
purchase the chimney pipes and various metal components such as a metal
furnace door. Villagers can pay for the pieces over a year under a credit
scheme.

"It's a slow process at first," said Afeworki. "But it is gaining momentum
now."

EXPERTS IN CLAY

The project's organisers say Eritrean women, who grow up learning to use
clay, will have little difficulty in making the new eco-friendly version of
the traditional "mogogo" stoves.

Women have long been taught by their mothers to make everything from pots to
sofas out of clay before leaving their parents' home and making a house with
their husbands.

"The skills are already there," said Afeworki, pointing as three women began
making one of the cooking furnaces at a home in the village of Adi Gembelo,
15 km (nine miles) south of the capital.

As the women worked lumps of clay into the shape of a new stove, its surface
appeared so smooth that it looked as if it had been finished with a metal
tool rather than fingers.

Mushamba agrees that dissemination of skills is key. His project in southern
Africa aims to empower local people by getting them to produce the stoves
with local materials and then sell them in surrounding areas for a small
commercial gain.

"It's a slow process but when communities identify which stove is good for
them, and see what it means for fuel savings the reception is good," he told
Reuters.

Story by Taro Matsuoka

REUTERS NEWS SERVICE

From crispin at newdawn.sz Tue Sep 17 23:57:38 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: Fw: Reuters story on Eritrean stove development
Message-ID: <002701c25eea$7b7c5820$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Ron

>Anyone able to help get this request to Paul?

Paul can be reached at
PROBEC.GTZ-Zimbabwe@zw.gtz.de

...if it is the same Paul!

Regards
Crispin

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Wed Sep 18 05:33:00 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
Message-ID: <000001c25f1b$439fd860$469ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Ron,
just as some plants need cold to induce flowering, some others seem to need
drought to do this. Jatropha seems to belong to this category of plants. In
the state of Maharashtra, we grow oranges in the Northern part of the state.
I have seen that the farmers dig the soil around the trees to expose the
roots to dry air for a period of about 15 days. This stress causes the
trees to defoliate completely, after which they fill the pits back with soil
and irrigate the plantation. This drought stress induces the trees to
produce profuse flowering. All the world over Jatropha is hailed as a high
yielding oil plant, but nowhere in India did it give high yield. It is
quite possible that our monsoon, which continues in June and lasts upto
mid-September provides the plant with moisture in the wrong season. In a
non-monsoon area, the plants may be getting drought stressed at the right
time and therefore the flowering is profuse, whereas in India that is not
the case.
Hybrid castor is available in different sizes, durations and climatic
adaptations. Most of the varieties need about 30 inches of rain, but having
a tap root system, they can tap water from the deeper zones and in many
cases, if you get a good 15 to 20 inches of rainfall in the first half of
the monsoon, the plants can complete their life cycle using water stored in
the soil.
Jatropha has the advantage that being a tree, it is to be planted only once,
after which one has just to go to the plantation to harvest it. In the case
of hybrid castor, one has to plant it every year anew.
There was a comment from Seaver about Spirulina and duckweed. Spirulina
grows naturally only in lakes having more than 10 pH. That is why it occurs
in certain lakes in Mexico and Africa. In the state of Maharashtra, we
collect this alga (actually it is a bacterium) only in one lake called
Lonar, which has this high pH due to some geological accident in the past.
Because of its high protein content, many entrepreneurs tried to grow it
artificially, but the cost of the artificially grown commercial product was
about Rs. 75 per kg, when soybean oil cake, containing about 40% protein was
available for about Rs. 4.5 per kg, or about 16 times cheaper. The
Spirulina producers tried to sell their product as poultry feed, but no
poultry owner would pay 16 times higher price for a material that contained
only twice as much protein. They then tried to promote Spirulina as human
food at a price of Rs. 200 per kg, and even then found no buyers. Now it is
being offered as capsules to supplement the diet of children. But studies
have shown, that protein deficiency among children and pregnant mothers in
the poorer strutum of the society can be easily and very cheaply alleviated
by eating powdered dried leaves of Spinach. This product can be added to
their unleavened bread, to any soup or vegetable. It contains about 35%
protein, carotenoids, minerals etc. The protein in the leaves is not storage
protein as in the seeds, but active enzyme protein. It therefore contains
all the essential amino acids that human body needs.
The problem with aquatic vegetables like duckweed or Spirulina is to keep
them free from other plants that grow in the same culture. In order to
prevent such weeds, one has to create conditions in which the target species
grows but the weeds don't. Therefore the extremely high pH or Spirulina
ponds or the high BOD (fecal contamination) of Lemna (duckweed) ponds. It
is likely that in colder climate duckweed can develop pure stands even in
clean water, but in India, to get a pure culture of duckweed, one has to
creat special conditions.
The yield of 150 tonnes of dry biomass and above can be obtained from such
specially tended aquacultures and not from the wild.
A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>; Reinhard.Henning@t-online.de
<Reinhard.Henning@t-online.de>
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)

>Stovers:
>
>1. Re the "Stumpf" stove description: Grant Ballard-Tremeer at the
>Johannesburg HEDON meeting demostrated a stove that sounds somewhat
similar,
>but I believe was using kerosene. Grant controlled the stove pressure and
>power output by controlling the heighth of the fuel container (the fuel
>flowing through a thin plastic tube. It was still under development - but
>might offer some advantages over a pumping arrangement. I hope Grant can
>tell us whether it might be adaptable to vegetable oil.
>
>2. At the WSSD, I talked at length with a Jatropha proponent wanting to
set
>up a large Jatropha "farm" for a bio-diesel facility in northern South
>Africa. He was insistent that the farm should only employ very marginal,
>non-irrigated land.
> A.D.: Under these more difficult circumstances, would you think that
>Jatropha is the correct plant - or are there varieties of the hybrid castor
>that still might outperform the Jatropha?
>
>3. I hope Reinhard can comment on both of the above.
>
>Ron
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 7:42 AM
>To: Ron Larson
>Cc: stoves@crest.org
>Subject: Re: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
>
>
>I saw Mr. Elmar Stumpf's stove in December 1999, when I visited Hohenheim
>University. It was modified from a commercial pressure stove that normally
>uses kerosene as fuel. In this stove, the tank holds ordinary vegetable oil
>instead of kerosene. This oil is driven upwards through a thin metal tube
>by pumping air into the oil tank. This tube is made into a coil, which is
>placed above the flame. The heat of the flame converts the oil in the coil
>into vapour. This vapour is carried downwards by a descending limb of the
>tubing, and burnt in the burner after mixing it with air. The stove gave a
>nice blue flame. The stove still had some problems at that time, like the
>oil pipe getting choked by nonvolatile residues in the oil. . I was hoping
>that Mr. Stumpf would be able to attend the Biofuels and Cookstoves
>conference held in Pune in Nov. 2000, but he was unable to attend.
Jatropha
>curcas grows wild in India. Its seed is harvested by nomads and tribals and
>sold in weekly village markets to merchants. Some farmers have planted
this
>species on a plantation scale, but as a crop it cannot compete with hybrid
>castor, which belongs to the same family. Under farm conditions, hybrid
>castor produces almost 4 times as much oil as Jatropha. Jatropha oil is
not
>allowed to be used as edible oil. The oil per se is not toxic, but the seed
>contains some nasty things that get extracted along with the oil. However
>in comparison to the Jatopha seed that is collected and sold to merchants,
>the quantity of oil that is sold as Jatropha oil is negligible. One must
>therefore suspect that relatively large quantities of Jatropha oil are
mixed
>with edible oils as an adulterant.
>A.D.Karve
>
>
><snip>
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.ht
m
>
>

From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Sep 18 10:38:22 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: FW: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Stumpf)
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMEKLCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers - the following just in from Elmar Stumpf on his stove for oils.

Elmar - Thank you for this additional information you have supplied below.
I hope you will go (if you haven't already) to "List-Subscribe:
<mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>" to join the "stoves" list. Your
joining (if not already there) will facilitate discussion.

I have a few questions to start you kind offer to discuss this stove
further:

1. Can you give an estimated cost for the stove now (and in the future, if
likely to be different).

2. What are the principal things you learned about seed oils that changed
the stove design? Did tubes have be longer, thinner, hotter, etc?

3. Can one modify a kerosene stove oneself?

4. Have you any comment on using a gravity feed mechanism for the oil
rather than a pumping mechanism (as I reported was being done by Grant
Ballard-Tremeer)?

5. Any detailed testing yet on pollution emissions and efficiency? Any
comparisons with wood-burning stoves?

6. How much cost difference for a typical meal in the locations you have
been testing?

7. What costs have you found for seed oils in different locations (US cents
per liter?)

8. We have been talking a good bit about gel alcohols as a stove approach.
Any comparisons or thoughts on that alternative as being better or worse
than seed oils?

9. How does the economics of other attributes of the native species fit in
(use for soil preservation, nitrogenation, firewood benefits, left over
economic value of the seed cake, etc)?

10. Any more detail on first results from your village tests?

11. Any comparisons to solar cookers (another upcoming GTZ emphasis)?

12. Please add anything else important I left out.

Thanks in advance. We all look forward to hearing more.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Elmar Stumpf: stumpf@ats.uni-hohenheim.de
[mailto:Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de]
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:39 AM
To: ronallarson@qwest.net
Subject: Re: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)

Dear Stovers:

I am very happy to read about our stove on the mailing list. I was out of
office some days but would like to give a short comment on the plant oil
stove.

Since the time Dr. Karve visited our institute we were able to further
optimize our stove. We are now pretty much concluding the technical design
of the stove and are able to burn divers liquid plant oils in our cooking
stove - we have tested around 8 so far and they all work very good.

Right now, we are running long term tests at our test bench as well as a
first practical test in Guatemala. In March this year we tested our stove
in the Philippines with very promising results. Since the functioning as
well as the utilization of the plant oil stove is the same as for the
pressure kerosene stoves, the users had no acceptance problems with this
new technology. We also did a financial analysis comparing the plant oils
as fuel to the other known cooking technologies. We found out that
utilizing coconut oil is the cheapest fuel regarding running costs (if we
put a financial value also on the collected wood).

I would be very happy to discuss the possibilities of this technology
within the stovers-forum.

Dr. Karve: thank you very much for mentioning our stove. That was
really a pitty for me not being able to attend the conference in Pune.

So far for today,
Elmar Stumpf

von:
Dipl.-Ing. Elmar Stumpf, M.Sc./Univ. of Wisc.-Madison
Institute for Agricultural Engineering in the Tropics and Subtropics
Hohenheim University (495)
Garbenstr. 9, 70599 Stuttgart, Germany
Tel.: +49 (0)711 - 459 - 2840
Fax: +49 (0)711 - 459 - 3298
e-mail: stumpf@ats.uni-hohenheim.de

From tombreed at attbi.com Wed Sep 18 12:24:44 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
In-Reply-To: <000001c25f1b$439fd860$469ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <000801c25f50$f9c3b410$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Nandu:

What a pleasure to have you here on the stove site offering such interesting
insites into the workings of Ma Nature!

Speaking of the effect of climate and location, I heard that about 1900,
Jack London (our author) observed the rapid growth of Eucalyptus hardwoods
in Australia. He imported them to California, intending to make another
fortune using them for railroad ties. However, in California they grew as a
softwood AND they had a big taproot and stole the water from all the other
plants.

Lots of beautiful Eucalyptus trees in California, but no E. railroad ties.

Anything to this story?

TOM REED

----- Original Message -----
From: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
To: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@qwest.net>
Cc: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)

> Dear Ron,
> just as some plants need cold to induce flowering, some others seem to
need
> drought to do this. Jatropha seems to belong to this category of plants.
In
> the state of Maharashtra, we grow oranges in the Northern part of the
state.
> I have seen that the farmers dig the soil around the trees to expose the
> roots to dry air for a period of about 15 days. This stress causes the
> trees to defoliate completely, after which they fill the pits back with
soil
> and irrigate the plantation. This drought stress induces the trees to
> produce profuse flowering. All the world over Jatropha is hailed as a
high
> yielding oil plant, but nowhere in India did it give high yield. It is
> quite possible that our monsoon, which continues in June and lasts upto
> mid-September provides the plant with moisture in the wrong season. In a
> non-monsoon area, the plants may be getting drought stressed at the right
> time and therefore the flowering is profuse, whereas in India that is not
> the case.
> Hybrid castor is available in different sizes, durations and climatic
> adaptations. Most of the varieties need about 30 inches of rain, but
having
> a tap root system, they can tap water from the deeper zones and in many
> cases, if you get a good 15 to 20 inches of rainfall in the first half of
> the monsoon, the plants can complete their life cycle using water stored
in
> the soil.
> Jatropha has the advantage that being a tree, it is to be planted only
once,
> after which one has just to go to the plantation to harvest it. In the
case
> of hybrid castor, one has to plant it every year anew.
> There was a comment from Seaver about Spirulina and duckweed. Spirulina
> grows naturally only in lakes having more than 10 pH. That is why it
occurs
> in certain lakes in Mexico and Africa. In the state of Maharashtra, we
> collect this alga (actually it is a bacterium) only in one lake called
> Lonar, which has this high pH due to some geological accident in the past.
> Because of its high protein content, many entrepreneurs tried to grow it
> artificially, but the cost of the artificially grown commercial product
was
> about Rs. 75 per kg, when soybean oil cake, containing about 40% protein
was
> available for about Rs. 4.5 per kg, or about 16 times cheaper. The
> Spirulina producers tried to sell their product as poultry feed, but no
> poultry owner would pay 16 times higher price for a material that
contained
> only twice as much protein. They then tried to promote Spirulina as human
> food at a price of Rs. 200 per kg, and even then found no buyers. Now it
is
> being offered as capsules to supplement the diet of children. But studies
> have shown, that protein deficiency among children and pregnant mothers in
> the poorer strutum of the society can be easily and very cheaply
alleviated
> by eating powdered dried leaves of Spinach. This product can be added to
> their unleavened bread, to any soup or vegetable. It contains about 35%
> protein, carotenoids, minerals etc. The protein in the leaves is not
storage
> protein as in the seeds, but active enzyme protein. It therefore contains
> all the essential amino acids that human body needs.
> The problem with aquatic vegetables like duckweed or Spirulina is to keep
> them free from other plants that grow in the same culture. In order to
> prevent such weeds, one has to create conditions in which the target
species
> grows but the weeds don't. Therefore the extremely high pH or Spirulina
> ponds or the high BOD (fecal contamination) of Lemna (duckweed) ponds. It
> is likely that in colder climate duckweed can develop pure stands even in
> clean water, but in India, to get a pure culture of duckweed, one has to
> creat special conditions.
> The yield of 150 tonnes of dry biomass and above can be obtained from such
> specially tended aquacultures and not from the wild.
> A.D.Karve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
> To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Cc: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>; Reinhard.Henning@t-online.de
> <Reinhard.Henning@t-online.de>
> Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 8:26 PM
> Subject: RE: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
>
>
> >Stovers:
> >
> >1. Re the "Stumpf" stove description: Grant Ballard-Tremeer at the
> >Johannesburg HEDON meeting demostrated a stove that sounds somewhat
> similar,
> >but I believe was using kerosene. Grant controlled the stove pressure
and
> >power output by controlling the heighth of the fuel container (the fuel
> >flowing through a thin plastic tube. It was still under development -
but
> >might offer some advantages over a pumping arrangement. I hope Grant can
> >tell us whether it might be adaptable to vegetable oil.
> >
> >2. At the WSSD, I talked at length with a Jatropha proponent wanting to
> set
> >up a large Jatropha "farm" for a bio-diesel facility in northern South
> >Africa. He was insistent that the farm should only employ very marginal,
> >non-irrigated land.
> > A.D.: Under these more difficult circumstances, would you think that
> >Jatropha is the correct plant - or are there varieties of the hybrid
castor
> >that still might outperform the Jatropha?
> >
> >3. I hope Reinhard can comment on both of the above.
> >
> >Ron
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 7:42 AM
> >To: Ron Larson
> >Cc: stoves@crest.org
> >Subject: Re: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning)
> >
> >
> >I saw Mr. Elmar Stumpf's stove in December 1999, when I visited Hohenheim
> >University. It was modified from a commercial pressure stove that
normally
> >uses kerosene as fuel. In this stove, the tank holds ordinary vegetable
oil
> >instead of kerosene. This oil is driven upwards through a thin metal
tube
> >by pumping air into the oil tank. This tube is made into a coil, which is
> >placed above the flame. The heat of the flame converts the oil in the
coil
> >into vapour. This vapour is carried downwards by a descending limb of the
> >tubing, and burnt in the burner after mixing it with air. The stove gave
a
> >nice blue flame. The stove still had some problems at that time, like the
> >oil pipe getting choked by nonvolatile residues in the oil. . I was
hoping
> >that Mr. Stumpf would be able to attend the Biofuels and Cookstoves
> >conference held in Pune in Nov. 2000, but he was unable to attend.
> Jatropha
> >curcas grows wild in India. Its seed is harvested by nomads and tribals
and
> >sold in weekly village markets to merchants. Some farmers have planted
> this
> >species on a plantation scale, but as a crop it cannot compete with
hybrid
> >castor, which belongs to the same family. Under farm conditions, hybrid
> >castor produces almost 4 times as much oil as Jatropha. Jatropha oil is
> not
> >allowed to be used as edible oil. The oil per se is not toxic, but the
seed
> >contains some nasty things that get extracted along with the oil.
However
> >in comparison to the Jatopha seed that is collected and sold to
merchants,
> >the quantity of oil that is sold as Jatropha oil is negligible. One must
> >therefore suspect that relatively large quantities of Jatropha oil are
> mixed
> >with edible oils as an adulterant.
> >A.D.Karve
> >
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >
> >-
> >Stoves List Archives and Website:
> >http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> >http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >>
> >Stoves List Moderators:
> >Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> >Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
> >
> >Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> >http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
> >
> >List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> >List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> >List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >>
> >For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.ht
> m
> >
> >
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Wed Sep 18 17:04:14 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: FW: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Stumpf)
In-Reply-To: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMEKLCBAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <20020919010202.GA24242@cybershamanix.com>

On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 12:38:14PM -0600, Ron Larson wrote:
> I have a few questions to start you kind offer to discuss this stove
> further:
>
> 1. Can you give an estimated cost for the stove now (and in the future, if
> likely to be different).

Yes!

(snip)

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Sep 19 01:18:54 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
Message-ID: <003301c25fbf$15e64540$2a47fea9@md>

OK Guys and Gals

What was that website that promised us CO meters that were affordable? I
think I found some money for one.

Thanks
Crispin wearing his Renewable Energy Association of Swaziland hat

From dstill at epud.net Thu Sep 19 08:20:08 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
Message-ID: <000701c25f6a$dee1b060$681e6c0c@default>

Dear Crispin,

www.microdaq.com should get you to Onset who makes the HOBO CO data logger
we're using now. We have used it side by side with other combustion
analyzers and it seems to be accurate. It costs around $240 but the software
is a bit extra. The really nice thing about the HOBO's are that you launch
the data logger, run your tests keeping track of time and then download the
data into your computer getting nice graphs. Perfect for recording in house
levels, I would think...So there is a permanent record of activity. The
downside is that it is really not set up for instantaneous readout so you
don't see the peaks and valleys as the stove is performing. You have to run
the test, record time and observations then go to your computer and see the
results. Oh yeah, it can't tolerate heat or high humidity. Our set up has
the data logger about six feet above the hood over the stove, depending on
day's temperature it stays between 70 and 90 degrees F... A six foot high 12
inch in diameter chimney pipe connected to the hood brings cooled gases to
the monitor. Using the same set up every time we can hopefully compare
differences in stoves.

Makes for very interesting morning conversations with coffee mug in hand
comparing recorded observations with the graphs. Yesterday we ran two stoves
and I'm itching to see what happened! Every day a new adventure!

Best,

Dean

From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Thu Sep 19 08:37:53 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <000701c25f6a$dee1b060$681e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDIELAEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

Just looked at the specs on the Onset CO meter. I note that the response
time for this meter is listed as 11 minutes. That seems REALLY limiting for
a stove, where large changes can occur within several seconds. Maybe useful
for furnaces operating at steady state, but I really question the
suitability for small stoves. If the sensor is used as a safety sensor for
sensing CO in the room, it may be OK.

I also note that there are no provisions for sample handling (a BIG deal) or
calibration.

I'd hate to see a lot of effort spent taking data with this instrument given
the limitations. I understand the attractiveness of the price. However, as
a guy who spends his living doing experiments, I hate to see effort spent on
careful experiments whose results are compromised by inadequate
instrumentation. Not even sure that you can be confident about A vs. B
comparative tests.

People send me engine data all the time which is basically worthless due to
similar instrumentation issues. I received some engine data yesterday from
Asia which measured more oxygen than is present in ambient air!

- Bryan Willson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dean Still [mailto:dstill@epud.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 5:26 PM
> To: stoves@crest.org; ethos
> Subject: Re: CO meters (again)
>
>
>
> Dear Crispin,
>
> www.microdaq.com should get you to Onset who makes the HOBO CO
> data logger
> we're using now. We have used it side by side with other combustion
> analyzers and it seems to be accurate. It costs around $240 but
> the software
> is a bit extra. The really nice thing about the HOBO's are that you launch
> the data logger, run your tests keeping track of time and then
> download the
> data into your computer getting nice graphs. Perfect for
> recording in house
> levels, I would think...So there is a permanent record of activity. The
> downside is that it is really not set up for instantaneous readout so you
> don't see the peaks and valleys as the stove is performing. You
> have to run
> the test, record time and observations then go to your computer
> and see the
> results. Oh yeah, it can't tolerate heat or high humidity. Our set up has
> the data logger about six feet above the hood over the stove, depending on
> day's temperature it stays between 70 and 90 degrees F... A six
> foot high 12
> inch in diameter chimney pipe connected to the hood brings cooled gases to
> the monitor. Using the same set up every time we can hopefully compare
> differences in stoves.
>
> Makes for very interesting morning conversations with coffee mug in hand
> comparing recorded observations with the graphs. Yesterday we ran
> two stoves
> and I'm itching to see what happened! Every day a new adventure!
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Ch
ambers.htm

From tombreed at attbi.com Fri Sep 20 08:31:46 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: GAS-L: CORRECT SUBJECT LINE
Message-ID: <039201c2609b$6fb02f50$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear All:

We have wonderfully informative and provocative discussions here at CREST.
And they wander far afield from the initiating topic. As long as it
continues to be the same subject, keep the line going....

HOWEVER, it they would be even better if we all tried to make the SUBJECT
line fit the SUBJECT whenever there is a significant change of subject. I
just sent a message with the wrong subject. I resent it. I'll try to do
bettter. You try too! (Grrrr....)

TOM REED BEF

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Fri Sep 20 08:40:27 2002
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yudkevich Yury)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: Worm Klez.E immunity
Message-ID: <003001c26079$45ef1180$7a3fefc3@mshome.net>

Dear colleagues!
The new especially mean form of a virus Klez is present. It contains the
letter:

"Klez.E is the most common world-wide spreading worm.It's very dangerous by
corrupting your files.
Because of its very smart stealth and anti-anti-virus technic,most common AV
software can't detect or clean it.
We developed this free immunity tool to defeat the malicious virus.
You only need to run this tool once,and then Klez will never come into your
PC.
NOTE: Because this tool acts as a fake Klez to fool the real worm,some AV
monitor maybe cry when you run it.
If so,Ignore the warning,and select 'continue'.
If you have any question,please mail to me."

You should delete these letters not opening the appendix.

Yury Yudkevich, Dr., Assoc. prof.
Sanct-Petersburg State Forest Technical Academy,
Department of Forest Chemical Products
and Biological activity Substunces (Russia)
fone/fax 7+812+5520430
<woodcoal@mailbox.alkor.ru>
5, Institutsky per. St.-Petersburg, 194021, Russia

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Fri Sep 20 08:49:40 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: CO emissions response to Andrew
In-Reply-To: <003601c25d6a$62da85c0$651e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <r3gkouo94cjjl15f5ushppkm6rackmn3go@4ax.com>

On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 03:17:38 -0700, "Dean Still" <dstill@epud.net>
wrote:

>Dear Andrew,
>
>Great to hear from you.

I am pleased someone reads my posts :-)
>
> Batch loading has advantages and a few disadvantages. I hear from Crispin
>that batch loading can be much preferred but our experience in Central
>America is that pushing the sticks into the fire, as into a three stone
>fire, is traditional.

One thing is certain from reading stoves, you cannot change cultural
preferences, I was not making a judgement, I am happy to play with
either system.

> I don't think that we'll find that batch loading is
>necessarily lower in CO emissions,

With the exception of the redd-larson idd stove in char making mode I
do not think batch loading stoves are ever good at start up and
reloading.

> my very limited experience so far is that
>even smoke free fires can be spewing a lot of CO into the room. It would be
>great if the money gods were to give each of us a combustion analyzer...

I have only had brief use of CO meters, I do intend to buy something
better soon.

I did ask the list some time back and recently Tami seemed to comment
on this business of visible pollution. I think if there is visible
smoke there is bound to be high CO, so a clean burning fire is within
the set of no visible smoke i.e if you can see the smoke it is not
good eb=nough.

>This is a complicated problem...to tell when the stove is really clean
>burning is not evident to eyes or nose."

I use eyes watering to judge if the PICs are bad in the absence of
smoke. I find the nose can be misleading as a smell I had previously
attributed to air starved combustion was recognisable even with low CO
and visibly clean combustion. I guess it is an organic compound that
survives higher temperatures than I attain. I have been told that it
is necessary to reach 1300C to properly break down organic acids in
pyrolysis gas.
>
>I wanted to try various clean burning strategies in the August class, like:
>>
>>1.) Have smoke go through coals
>
>Why? The coals will still need to burn and thence will require excess
>air in the stove part.
>
>"The Rocket stove forces a lot of air through the coals so that they are
>very hot. Directing all hot flue gases to go down through the bed of coals
>might force the uncombusted particles to catch fire, i.e., downdraft through
>coals. A hot bed of coals under the fire is in the worst place to scrub hot
>flue gases, they rise up and away."

I think I have misunderstood the arrangement, I understand one of the
benefits of down draught combustion is that all gases are forced
through the high temperature zone.
>
>>2.) Force smoke to scrape against surfaces above 1200F.
>
>I guess you mean flue gas rather than smoke, or are you intending the
>surface to feed back some energy to the "smoke" to burn it out?
>
>" Directing unburnt combustibles between two glowing very hot surfaces (or
>variations of same idea) should help to ignite them."

I think this is a bit like the "gas wick" function in the idd stove, I
actually doubt the effect is any more than controlling the gas
velocities to match the flame speed, anyway there is a cost in heating
the surfaces to above spontaneous combustion temperature and that is
heat loss through the surfaces unless you have access to kaowool type
insulation, now a catalytic surface is something else!

>This to prevent "runaway" pyrolysis upsetting the fuel:air ratio?
>
>"We want to burn all wood at very high temperatures. Having too much air
>isn't a problem, I think, if it doesn't cool the fire."

I think we are running into a misunderstanding. I was commenting on
your requirement to keep wood cool until it entered the combustion
zone, once in the combustion zone I think we all agree the three Ts.
BTW excess air always cools the fire because you have only a given
amount of energy in the fuel and increasing air beyond stoichiometric
serves to spread the heat over a larger mass flow. The art is to
maximise the amount of fuel cleanly combusted by increasing the excess
air, this tends to be a function of the quality of the fuel, my wet
fuels seem to need 50% excess air, natural gas manages on 5%.

>"I agree, except that: the easiest way to produce less smoke in a Rocket
>stove is to make the insulated chimney above the fire higher. But the excess
>draft created by the taller chimney pulls too much air past the sticks
>lowering exit temperatures. Bad for cooking efficiency...So, using up the
>excess draft by tumbling hot flue gases in the chimney seemed a possible way
>to make the taller chimney (which gives more time for combustion to occur)
>practical."

I think I disagree this last point, it is a shame that I cannot be
present whilst you run some of these tests, maybe one day...

AJH

From dstill at epud.net Fri Sep 20 08:47:56 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: CO meters (more $ again)
Message-ID: <001101c26053$c6b507a0$7c1e6c0c@default>

Dear Bryan,

Thanks for the warning on the Onset HOBO CO data logger. Too bad that it
won't work, it seemed almost "too good to be true", being that it is so
inexpensive. In most of our experiments so far we were also using an Enerac
2000 and the HOBO and Enerac seemed to be in close agreement. I'll check
with Onset to make sure that the response time is so slow. Really
appreciate your help!!

Best,

Dean

From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Sep 20 11:02:55 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: CO meters (more $ again)
Message-ID: <002801c260d8$b203ef80$11b1fea9@home>

Dear Stovers

I need a CO meter that will detect changes in a few seconds because the
whole point it to try to see what happens when we turn the stove down from a
high heat.

When the air supply is cut off, or mostly cut off, there is a long reaction
time when the heat stored in the wood and stove drives off gas for which
there is no available oxygen and I expect the CO level to rise dramatically.
After a time everything slows down and this burn very well again. I am
trying to document the CO conditions in the hot-turned-down-state and the
starved-for-air state.

On another note:

I am happy to report that the can making company has pitched up with two
daditional sizes for me: a 40 litre and a 50 litre can, both 358 in diameter
made from 0,6mm material which is 4 times as stiff as the present unit.

One of Marlis' concerns (and ours) is that the 25 litre can stove didn't
weigh enough to stay still while stirring maize meal porridge. Apparently
there is a stove in Kenya that picked up the nickname 'walking stoke'
because it was so light it moved around a lot when the cook was stirring!

Regards
crispin

From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Sep 20 11:04:11 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: CORRECT SUBJECT LINE
In-Reply-To: <039201c2609b$6fb02f50$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <002701c260d8$b15c16c0$11b1fea9@home>

Dear Tom

<<HOWEVER, it they would be even better if we all tried to make the SUBJECT
line fit the SUBJECT whenever there is a significant change of subject. I
just sent a message with the wrong subject. I resent it. I'll try to do
bettter. You try too! (Grrrr....)>>

As a shameless breaker of this rule I will try to reform myself. Thanks for
the reminder!

All the best to our volunteers
Crispin

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Fri Sep 20 20:00:45 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Roberto_Escard=F3?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: Acronyms
Message-ID: <003501c26123$128aef80$0100a8c0@pentium>

I have a nice unit conversion pop up
always running on my PC (anyway convert R insulation grades to anything
meaninful for SI speaking people is not easy) and, where I´m on line
Acronym Finder helps a lot, but:
PLEASE BE KIND AND DO NOT USE
ACRONYMS UNCOMMON OUT OF USA (Applies to 90%)

Regards
Roberto.

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Fri Sep 20 20:14:05 2002
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Acronyms
In-Reply-To: <003501c26123$128aef80$0100a8c0@pentium>
Message-ID: <3D8BF164.FFFFAEE8@ca.inter.net>

Dear Roberto

BTW, (By The Way) did you know what a TLA is?

Its a Three Letter Acronym. :-)

TTYL (Talk To You Later)

KC (Kevin Chisholm)

> Roberto Escardó wrote:
>
> I have a nice unit conversion pop up always running
> on my PC (anyway convert R insulation grades to
> anything meaninful for SI speaking people is not
> easy) and, where I´m on line Acronym Finder helps a
> lot, but:
> PLEASE BE KIND AND DO NOT USE ACRONYMS UNCOMMON OUT
> OF USA (Applies to 90%)
>
> Regards
> Roberto.
>

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Sep 20 20:53:10 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Acronyms
In-Reply-To: <003501c26123$128aef80$0100a8c0@pentium>
Message-ID: <20020921045005.GA27192@cybershamanix.com>

I thought it was usually used for Three Letter Agency: CIA, FBI, WTO, etc.

On Sat, Sep 21, 2002 at 01:11:16AM -0300, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> Dear Roberto
>
> BTW, (By The Way) did you know what a TLA is?
>
> Its a Three Letter Acronym. :-)
>
> TTYL (Talk To You Later)
>
> KC (Kevin Chisholm)
>
>
> > Roberto Escardó wrote:
> >
> > I have a nice unit conversion pop up always running
> > on my PC (anyway convert R insulation grades to
> > anything meaninful for SI speaking people is not
> > easy) and, where I´m on line Acronym Finder helps a
> > lot, but:
> > PLEASE BE KIND AND DO NOT USE ACRONYMS UNCOMMON OUT
> > OF USA (Applies to 90%)
> >
> > Regards
> > Roberto.
> >
>
> Gasification List Moderator:
> Tom Reed, Biomass Energy Foundation, tombreed@attbi.com Biomass =
> Energy Foundation, www.woodgas.com
> List-Post: <mailto:gasification@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:gasification-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gasification-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:gasification-subscribe@crest.org>
> -
> Gasification List Archives http://www.crest.org/discussion/gasification/200202/
> Bioenergy 2002 http://www.bioenergy2002.org/
> 200 kWe CHP Discussion
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasification/200kWCHP.html
> Gasification Reference http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html
>
> >

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Sep 20 21:43:40 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Technical Support] CO meter
Message-ID: <3D8C0665.92E78A8F@cybershamanix.com>

I'd thought we had this conversation about the HOBO meter sometime
ago, looked this up.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Technical Support
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:31:21 -0500
From: "Paul Borsari" <paul_borsari@onsetcomp.com>
To: hseaver@cybershamanix.com
References: <200111291512.KAA26957@oak.cape.com>

Hello Harmon,

The sampling rate is the interval in which you can set the logger to take
readings (anywhere from .5 seconds to 9 hours). The response time refers
to the time it takes for the CO logger to reach the operating temperature
of its environment once it has been deployed. If I can be of further
assistance, please feel free to contact me.

Best regards,

Paul Borsari
Technical Support Representative
Onset Computer Corporation
(508) 759-9500 ext. 155
(800) 564-4377 ext. 155

hseaver@cybershamanix.com writes:
>I'm interested in buying the CO logger, but someone told me that the
>response time of the unit is 10 minutes. Your site says that the sampling
>rate can be set as low as 1/2 second, so I'm a bit confused -- I would
>think "sampling rate" equals "response time". Thanx.

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Sep 20 21:44:50 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Technical Support]
Message-ID: <3D8C0688.EC7A85B9@cybershamanix.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Technical Support
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:02:55 -0500
From: "Paul Borsari" <paul_borsari@onsetcomp.com>
To: hseaver@cybershamanix.com
References: <200111291512.KAA26957@oak.cape.com><fc.0010c91900253e403b9aca0042829151.253e83@onsetcomp.com><3C0659AE.83B91E9A@cybershamanix.com>

Hello Harmon,

You are correct; The CO logger will take readings every 1/2 second, but
will only take ACCURATE readings once it has reached its operating temp
(typically 11 minutes). If I can be of further assistance, please feel
free to contact me.

Best regards,

Paul Borsari
Technical Support Representative
Onset Computer Corporation
(508) 759-9500 ext. 155
(800) 564-4377 ext. 155

hseaver@cybershamanix.com writes:
> Okay, so once it's reached operating temp, then it can give you a
>reading every half second. This person was under the impression it took 10
>minutes to give a reading after sampling.
>
>
>Paul Borsari wrote:
>
>> Hello Harmon,
>>
>> The sampling rate is the interval in which you can set the logger to
>take
>> readings (anywhere from .5 seconds to 9 hours). The response time
>refers
>> to the time it takes for the CO logger to reach the operating
>temperature
>> of its environment once it has been deployed. If I can be of further
>> assistance, please feel free to contact me.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Paul Borsari
>> Technical Support Representative
>> Onset Computer Corporation
>> (508) 759-9500 ext. 155
>> (800) 564-4377 ext. 155
>>
>> hseaver@cybershamanix.com writes:
>> >I'm interested in buying the CO logger, but someone told me that the
>> >response time of the unit is 10 minutes. Your site says that the
>sampling
>> >rate can be set as low as 1/2 second, so I'm a bit confused -- I would
>> >think "sampling rate" equals "response time". Thanx.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Sep 21 00:08:38 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: Acronyms
In-Reply-To: <003501c26123$128aef80$0100a8c0@pentium>
Message-ID: <003b01c26147$8832d440$2a47fea9@md>

ÿþ

Dear Roberto
 
I think you should tell us a little more about this
digital device you have for conversions.
 
Thanks
Crispin

From yark at u.washington.edu Sat Sep 21 00:54:43 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:10 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <000701c25f6a$dee1b060$681e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209210102390.68958-100000@homer16.u.washington.edu>

Stovers and especially Dean, Crispin and Bryan:

I am finally weighing in on the CO issue.

Harmon, thank you for looking that conversation up. I was going to do the
same but you saved me the trouble! I did remember that we came to the
conclusion that it wasn't 'really' an 11-minute response time to CO but
couldn't remember why. Thinking about it-- these sensors are usually used
for safety rasons. You might want to get out of the space if the CO levels
skyrocket, and before 11 minutes too!

Following what people have said, these would be my questions about the
Onset logger.

1) Does the slow temperature equilibration affect the accuracy at the temp
fluctuations one might experience in the exhaust? If so, we ought not to
consider this unit.

2) Just what size of changes are we looking for? Dean speaks of changes by
a factor of 10. Bryan suggests that with an inaccurate meter, one might
not even trust comparative values. True, but I don't think the
inaccuracies would be off by a factor of 10. And if we are only making a
10% difference, our stoves are probably not 'improved' enough.

3) Dean said that the logger won't handle high heat or humidity. Is this
because the datalogger piece needs to be kept cool, or is it a problem
with the sensor itself? If the problem is not with the sensor, then it is
not too hard to separate them-- put the sensor in the stack and the logger
outside. It doesn't make for a nice turnkey (=turkey) package, but it's
not much more expensive, maybe less, and you could pick the sensor and
even put a baby muffin fan on as Don suggested.

About CO sensors. The research I have done suggests that one can get an
electrochemical sensor with voltage output in the $150-200 range, maybe
less. Cons-- the sensors are prone to temperature effects, interferences
from other gases, wear out (chemically) after a couple of years. Pros--
cheap. The next higher rung is NDIR (non-dispersive infrared). More
accurate, but also more expensive (>$1000). My sense is that
cheap-rugged-accessible is going to be limited to the electrochem right
now. (Please someone prove me wrong and send me a brochure for a $100
NDIR! ;-))

So we are stuck with the electrochem, with all its faults. It is not as
good as a fancier system; but it is surely better than what people have
now, which is nothing. Can it be made to work in service of stoves? It
needs good response time and reasonable accuracy. We should work on
defining what 'reasonable' is, because we have many sources of uncertainty
in comparing one stove versus another. I am guessing that 20% is good
enough for the field. Anyone?? (Here I am reminded of what my old advisor
would say: 'Measure it with a micrometer; mark it with a pencil; cut it
with a hatchet!') Next, we need some data on what the response time is for
that accuracy. Compare it with the Enerac or the FTIR or the NDIR.
Anyone who's taking measurements, please log a couple of electrochems in
parallel, and post the data on Stoves.

Next next, I haven't seen much discussion of what we really need: not the
CO, but the CO/CO2 ratio. The CO is variable based on dilution. You either
want to know the concentration in the living space, or the total emission
from some amount of fuel-- CO concentration alone, at some point in the
stack, gives you neither. Measure the CO2. Dean's proposed setup will do
this. I have a misgiving about using an exhaust gas analyzer to measure
CO2 unless it's right above the flame, but the Enerac people think their
setup will work.

You might think you could get the CO/CO2 ratio from a hand-held combustion
analyzer, but in fact, those are all inferred from O2 readings. If the
exhaust has been diluted a bit, the O2 concentration is high, and the
calculation of CO2 becomes uncertain. Plus, the inference is made based on
fuel composition-- which changes as you burn. You have to measure the CO2.
The other option is to weigh the stove to infer mass loss, and know the
flow rate through the capture device (hood). I find that measuring CO2 is
much less uncertain-- but I have not found a way to do it cheaply yet.

Where does this leave Crispin, other than with a pocketful of small bills
and still nowhere to spend it? I do think the electrochem is a viable
option for CO, but it's a long way from the answer. My feeling is that you
could do a lot worse than spending $250 on the meter Dean suggested; know
that there are a lot of uncertainties, but at least it would tell you
*something*.

Tami

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Sep 21 03:06:35 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
Message-ID: <004901c26160$3cfa8180$2a47fea9@md>

Dear Tami

I am definitely in need of a set (prescribed) rule here.

I do have the capability to weight the entire stove to 2 grams and we do
watch the fuel burn and the water temp rise. This is very good for the short
time (3 or 4 mintes) until the water starts boiling and then it is a guess
thereafter because some of the loss is water and some is fuel.

As I want to measure the CO and CO2 from a cold stove being lighted (which
is when the combustion is worst) I will have to have something that
stabilizes in a lot less than 11 minutes becase that is three times as long
as a typical test!

While I am interested in what the steady-state burning efficiency is, the
interesting parts are:
- lighting up,
- putting a cold pot onto a hot fire,
- adding cold fuel to a hot fire and
- changing the amount of incoming air volume dramatically, either up or
down.

It is possible to use waste heat from the fire to preheat and dry out more
fuelwood and if it is worth it, we can do that systematically.

Regards
Crispin

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sat Sep 21 05:31:30 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: walking stove
Message-ID: <000201c26176$aa500000$0b56c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

I had always wondered why the various models of metallic (portable) stoves
were not popular with village households in India. The housewives always
prefer to have their cookstoves fixed on the ground and preferably forming
an integral part of the cooking platform. A part of the stove is sometimes
even buried half underground. After reading about the walking stove, I
realised that stability of the cookstove and the pot on it are course very
important criteria of acceptance by the housewife.
A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Crispin <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: Stoves <stoves@crest.org>
Date: Saturday, September 21, 2002 12:30 AM
Subject: CO meters (more $ again)

>Dear Stovers
>
>I need a CO meter that will detect changes in a few seconds because the
>whole point it to try to see what happens when we turn the stove down from
a
>high heat.
>
>When the air supply is cut off, or mostly cut off, there is a long reaction
>time when the heat stored in the wood and stove drives off gas for which
>there is no available oxygen and I expect the CO level to rise
dramatically.
>After a time everything slows down and this burn very well again. I am
>trying to document the CO conditions in the hot-turned-down-state and the
>starved-for-air state.
>
>On another note:
>
>I am happy to report that the can making company has pitched up with two
>daditional sizes for me: a 40 litre and a 50 litre can, both 358 in
diameter
>made from 0,6mm material which is 4 times as stiff as the present unit.
>
>One of Marlis' concerns (and ours) is that the 25 litre can stove didn't
>weigh enough to stay still while stirring maize meal porridge. Apparently
>there is a stove in Kenya that picked up the nickname 'walking stoke'
>because it was so light it moved around a lot when the cook was stirring!
>
>Regards
>crispin
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.ht
m
>
>

From tombreed at attbi.com Sat Sep 21 11:58:56 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: GAS-L: Gasifier fundamental question
In-Reply-To: <118.11437d70.2a0c0b97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050601c261a8$f24a22a0$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Vernon, Crispin and All:

Recently I said...

The air fuel ratio for volatiles in a dry fuel is about 1. For
charcoal it is 6!
and Vernon asked...

Tom, would you be so kind as to elaborate? I gather that to burn the
charcoal, the required air to fuel ratio is 6. But I'm not clear about
what air to fuel ratio is required to gasify the wood. And what air to
fuel ratio is then required to combust the pyrolysis gases? More recently I stressed that proper primary and secondary air
distribution was all important in gasifying and burning charcoal and
biomass. Since there is such a difference between biomass and charcoal let
me explain in more detail. The explanation involves only simple
chemistry.

First lets look at carbon (charcoal)
combustion with oxygen:

C +
O2 ==> CO2
Molecular
weights
12 32 44
(g/mole; lb/lbmole etc.)

So the oxygen/fuel ratio for carbon combustion is
32/12 = 2.66...

It gets a little more complicated with air since
each oxygen carries 3.76 N2 with it.

C + 1/2 O2 ==> CO
Molecular
weights
12
16
28 (g/mole; lb/lbmole etc.)
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A title=VHarris001@aol.com
href="mailto:VHarris001@aol.com">VHarris001@aol.com
To: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 11:27
AM
Subject: Re: Gasifier fundamental
question
In a message dated 04/14/2002 6:33:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <A
href="mailto:tombreed@attbi.com">tombreed@attbi.com writes:
Thanks Vernon Harris

From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Sat Sep 21 19:01:50 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209210102390.68958-100000@homer16.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDAENHEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

I am a bit confused by the response from Paul Borsari of Onset. Generally,
when a company reports a response time for any type of instrument, they are
referring to the time it takes for the instrument to respond "significantly"
to a step change in the measured value. Usually, this is the time to
achieve 66% or 90% of the new value. In this case, we are talking about the
time to respond to a step change in ambient CO concentration.

What Paul appears to refer to is "warm-up time", which is something very
different. My hypothesis is that the long (11 minute) response time on the
Onset web site is due to the fact that gas only gets to the electrochemical
sensor by diffusion, since there is no sampling pump to "force" the sampled
gas through the instrument.

Having said this, I now have more questions than ever. When I have a
question, I like to take a measurement so that I know how the test was
conducted and what it tells us.

Does anyone have one of these things that they would be willing to send us
for a few weeks? I propose putting the thing in a box, feeding it some CO
calibration gas, and plotting it's response vs. time. You can send me a
message through the Stoves list or offline.

Thanks!

- Bryan Willson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tami Bond [mailto:yark@u.washington.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 2:52 AM
> To: Dean Still
> Cc: stoves@crest.org; ethos
> Subject: Re: CO meters (again)
>
>
>
> Stovers and especially Dean, Crispin and Bryan:
>
> I am finally weighing in on the CO issue.
>
> Harmon, thank you for looking that conversation up. I was going to do the
> same but you saved me the trouble! I did remember that we came to the
> conclusion that it wasn't 'really' an 11-minute response time to CO but
> couldn't remember why. Thinking about it-- these sensors are usually used
> for safety rasons. You might want to get out of the space if the CO levels
> skyrocket, and before 11 minutes too!
>
> Following what people have said, these would be my questions about the
> Onset logger.
>
> 1) Does the slow temperature equilibration affect the accuracy at the temp
> fluctuations one might experience in the exhaust? If so, we ought not to
> consider this unit.
>
> 2) Just what size of changes are we looking for? Dean speaks of changes by
> a factor of 10. Bryan suggests that with an inaccurate meter, one might
> not even trust comparative values. True, but I don't think the
> inaccuracies would be off by a factor of 10. And if we are only making a
> 10% difference, our stoves are probably not 'improved' enough.
>
> 3) Dean said that the logger won't handle high heat or humidity. Is this
> because the datalogger piece needs to be kept cool, or is it a problem
> with the sensor itself? If the problem is not with the sensor, then it is
> not too hard to separate them-- put the sensor in the stack and the logger
> outside. It doesn't make for a nice turnkey (=turkey) package, but it's
> not much more expensive, maybe less, and you could pick the sensor and
> even put a baby muffin fan on as Don suggested.
>
>
> About CO sensors. The research I have done suggests that one can get an
> electrochemical sensor with voltage output in the $150-200 range, maybe
> less. Cons-- the sensors are prone to temperature effects, interferences
> from other gases, wear out (chemically) after a couple of years. Pros--
> cheap. The next higher rung is NDIR (non-dispersive infrared). More
> accurate, but also more expensive (>$1000). My sense is that
> cheap-rugged-accessible is going to be limited to the electrochem right
> now. (Please someone prove me wrong and send me a brochure for a $100
> NDIR! ;-))
>
> So we are stuck with the electrochem, with all its faults. It is not as
> good as a fancier system; but it is surely better than what people have
> now, which is nothing. Can it be made to work in service of stoves? It
> needs good response time and reasonable accuracy. We should work on
> defining what 'reasonable' is, because we have many sources of uncertainty
> in comparing one stove versus another. I am guessing that 20% is good
> enough for the field. Anyone?? (Here I am reminded of what my old advisor
> would say: 'Measure it with a micrometer; mark it with a pencil; cut it
> with a hatchet!') Next, we need some data on what the response time is for
> that accuracy. Compare it with the Enerac or the FTIR or the NDIR.
> Anyone who's taking measurements, please log a couple of electrochems in
> parallel, and post the data on Stoves.
>
> Next next, I haven't seen much discussion of what we really need: not the
> CO, but the CO/CO2 ratio. The CO is variable based on dilution. You either
> want to know the concentration in the living space, or the total emission
> from some amount of fuel-- CO concentration alone, at some point in the
> stack, gives you neither. Measure the CO2. Dean's proposed setup will do
> this. I have a misgiving about using an exhaust gas analyzer to measure
> CO2 unless it's right above the flame, but the Enerac people think their
> setup will work.
>
> You might think you could get the CO/CO2 ratio from a hand-held combustion
> analyzer, but in fact, those are all inferred from O2 readings. If the
> exhaust has been diluted a bit, the O2 concentration is high, and the
> calculation of CO2 becomes uncertain. Plus, the inference is made based on
> fuel composition-- which changes as you burn. You have to measure the CO2.
> The other option is to weigh the stove to infer mass loss, and know the
> flow rate through the capture device (hood). I find that measuring CO2 is
> much less uncertain-- but I have not found a way to do it cheaply yet.
>
> Where does this leave Crispin, other than with a pocketful of small bills
> and still nowhere to spend it? I do think the electrochem is a viable
> option for CO, but it's a long way from the answer. My feeling is that you
> could do a lot worse than spending $250 on the meter Dean suggested; know
> that there are a lot of uncertainties, but at least it would tell you
> *something*.
>
> Tami
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Ch
ambers.htm

From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Sat Sep 21 19:06:35 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <004901c26160$3cfa8180$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDKENHEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

Crispin -

We get around your problem of (separating the change of weight from fuel
consumption vs. water boiloff) by "hanging" the water over the stove, so
that the scale only weighs the stove & fuel. Obviously, you need to be
careful to keep the water close enough to it's normal position that you
don't change the mode of operation. We also counterbalance the stove's
weight so that the scale is really only measuring the weight of the wood.
This alleviated the expense of procuring a high-accuracy, high-mass scale.

- Bryan Willson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Crispin [mailto:crispin@newdawn.sz]
> Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:09 AM
> To: Stoves
> Subject: RE: CO meters (again)
>
>
> Dear Tami
>
> I am definitely in need of a set (prescribed) rule here.
>
> I do have the capability to weight the entire stove to 2 grams and we do
> watch the fuel burn and the water temp rise. This is very good
> for the short
> time (3 or 4 mintes) until the water starts boiling and then it is a guess
> thereafter because some of the loss is water and some is fuel.
>
> As I want to measure the CO and CO2 from a cold stove being lighted (which
> is when the combustion is worst) I will have to have something that
> stabilizes in a lot less than 11 minutes becase that is three
> times as long
> as a typical test!
>
> While I am interested in what the steady-state burning efficiency is, the
> interesting parts are:
> - lighting up,
> - putting a cold pot onto a hot fire,
> - adding cold fuel to a hot fire and
> - changing the amount of incoming air volume dramatically, either up or
> down.
>
> It is possible to use waste heat from the fire to preheat and dry out more
> fuelwood and if it is worth it, we can do that systematically.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Ch
ambers.htm

From yark at u.washington.edu Sat Sep 21 20:42:35 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: walking stove
In-Reply-To: <000201c26176$aa500000$0b56c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209212135440.116104-100000@homer06.u.washington.edu>

Karve writes:

> After reading about the walking stove, I
> realised that stability of the cookstove and the pot on it are course very
> important criteria of acceptance by the housewife.

The stove itself doesn't have to be low-mass; but the mass ought to be
thermally insulated from the combustion chamber. Right? Apro's Justa stove
is a good example-- inside, the Rocket elbow is insulated from the mass
that forms most of the body. Have people tried adding a heavy base to a
light stove? Does this make shipping prohibitive?

Tami

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Sep 22 07:48:24 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO emissions response to Andrew
In-Reply-To: <003601c25d6a$62da85c0$651e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <20020922154528.GA5995@cybershamanix.com>

On Thu, Sep 19, 2002 at 10:33:05PM +0100, AJH wrote:
> >
> >" Directing unburnt combustibles between two glowing very hot surfaces (or
> >variations of same idea) should help to ignite them."
>
> I think this is a bit like the "gas wick" function in the idd stove, I
> actually doubt the effect is any more than controlling the gas
> velocities to match the flame speed, anyway there is a cost in heating
> the surfaces to above spontaneous combustion temperature and that is
> heat loss through the surfaces unless you have access to kaowool type
> insulation, now a catalytic surface is something else!

Has anyone looked into some sort of cheap, easily obtainable catalytic
material? I suppose the cat converters which fit on the stove pipe of many wood
heating stoves would be about the right size, but probably too expensive.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Sep 22 09:27:16 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO emissions response to Andrew
Message-ID: <80.21e14de5.2abf56dd@aol.com>

> Daniel's comments

> I know that cobalt and manganese catalysts are used in flue cleaners. Manganese is contained in many casted and forged high carbon alloy steels. I have often wondered if the use of some high manganese steel or iron in stove construction would facilitate better combustion. It only seens to take a trace of these elements to lower combustion temperatures greatly and fully break down tars.
Daniel Dimiduk

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Sun Sep 22 10:58:29 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Roberto_Escard=F3?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: Unit conversions
In-Reply-To: <003501c26123$128aef80$0100a8c0@pentium>
Message-ID: <01b301c26269$a404a090$0100a8c0@pentium>

ÿþ

Crispin:
I use WinUnit (free) from Engineering
Software  Services, <A
href="http://www.unit-conversion.com">http://www.unit-conversion.com I like the "Flexible" option, you can
convert fron anythingh to anything as long as you respect the dimensional
equation.
On the subject: The most complete
reference to units I found is <A
href="http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/">http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/ 
(From a link there I found the American-Metric sieves sizes eq.)
 
Of topic: I think Of topic comments are
very enriching.
On your comment on numbering systems: Some
of our aborigins (Tehuelches from Southern Patagonia) also used a
0ne-two-three-many system.
 
Regards.
Roberto 
  
PS: Cheers for your Web Site (and the work
behind it!!)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
Crispin

To: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">Stoves
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 4:36
AM
Subject: Re: Acronyms

Dear Roberto
 
I think you should tell us a little more about this
digital device you have for conversions.
 
Thanks
Crispin

From yark at u.washington.edu Sun Sep 22 11:20:37 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <004901c26160$3cfa8180$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209221152590.38798-100000@homer05.u.washington.edu>

Crispin,

> I do have the capability to weight the entire stove to 2 grams and we do
> watch the fuel burn and the water temp rise. This is very good for the short
> time (3 or 4 mintes) until the water starts boiling and then it is a guess
> thereafter because some of the loss is water and some is fuel.

Bryan had lots of good ideas here (suspending pot etc). Another thing you
need is a measure of flow rate through your hood-- I assume you have a
hood collecting the exhaust. Since you are measuring the CO after the
stove exhaust has entrained some air, the concentration is affected by how
much dilution has occurred. To remove that effect, and to allow you to
calculate total CO emitted, you have to measure either volume flow rate at
the point of CO measurement, or CO2 at the point of measurement. (Another
way to do it, which has been discussed on this list, is to dump the
exhaust into a known volume. But this does not allow you to look at your
transients very well.)

Best thing to do is put a really light draft on the hood, like a little
blower. Is this possible? You need to make sure you are collecting all the
exhaust, but not provide enough draft to affect the combustion. Then you
have to measure the flow. The cheapest way I have found to do this is to
attach a 6" flow grid ($25) to a pressure transducer with an analog
output ($40). The flow grid gives you a better and quicker idea of flow
than a pitot tube traverse. Anyone have a better idea?

> As I want to measure the CO and CO2 from a cold stove being lighted (which
> is when the combustion is worst) I will have to have something that
> stabilizes in a lot less than 11 minutes becase that is three times as long
> as a typical test!

I agree with you and with Bryan that we want to know something about
transient operation and especially specific actions. We might get more
benefit out of working on specific combustion phases rather than the stove
as a whole.

Even if the response time refers to temperature and not CO, the long
response is a problem, because the temperature will change when you light
the stove. I am not sure, though, that another electrochem cell will fix
the problem. I wonder how much of a comparison between two sensors is
governed by one company being more honest or conservative than another,
rather than actual performance. Let's see if we can get that issue
straightened out. I think I will send Onset a message and I hope they do
not get besieged with similar ones.

> It is possible to use waste heat from the fire to preheat and dry out more
> fuelwood and if it is worth it, we can do that systematically.

I think this is a really good idea. I have heard that people do that in
some parts. Thanks for the reminder that the stove-fuel-cooking can be a
system with more parts than a combustion box and longer timescales than
dinner!

Last: Bryan mentioned the need for calibration. Yes we need this, but as
cal kits often run into the several hundreds of dollars, what shall we do?
I can't think of a better idea than having a central calibration station
where sensors get returned every year. The shipping would be much cheaper
than the certified cal gas and much less training would be required.
Ideas??

Tami

From tombreed at attbi.com Sun Sep 22 11:44:28 2002
From: tombreed at attbi.com (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209221152590.38798-100000@homer05.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <001501c26270$199e5020$9888fd0c@TOMBREED>

Dear Tami, Crispin and All:

You inquired about measuring the air flow on the hood and suggested using a
SMALL fan. We use small fans on our WoodGas stoves and I measure the air
flow produced (at pressures of < 0.1 inch water) by attaching a VERY light
weight plastic garbage bag around the fan and measuring time to fill and
volume. I'm sure your fan could handle this.

TOM REED BEF STOVEWORKS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Bond" <yark@u.washington.edu>
To: <stoves@crest.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 1:18 PM
Subject: RE: CO meters (again)

>
> Crispin,
>
> > I do have the capability to weight the entire stove to 2 grams and we do
> > watch the fuel burn and the water temp rise. This is very good for the
short
> > time (3 or 4 mintes) until the water starts boiling and then it is a
guess
> > thereafter because some of the loss is water and some is fuel.
>
> Bryan had lots of good ideas here (suspending pot etc). Another thing you
> need is a measure of flow rate through your hood-- I assume you have a
> hood collecting the exhaust. Since you are measuring the CO after the
> stove exhaust has entrained some air, the concentration is affected by how
> much dilution has occurred. To remove that effect, and to allow you to
> calculate total CO emitted, you have to measure either volume flow rate at
> the point of CO measurement, or CO2 at the point of measurement. (Another
> way to do it, which has been discussed on this list, is to dump the
> exhaust into a known volume. But this does not allow you to look at your
> transients very well.)
>
> Best thing to do is put a really light draft on the hood, like a little
> blower. Is this possible? You need to make sure you are collecting all the
> exhaust, but not provide enough draft to affect the combustion. Then you
> have to measure the flow. The cheapest way I have found to do this is to
> attach a 6" flow grid ($25) to a pressure transducer with an analog
> output ($40). The flow grid gives you a better and quicker idea of flow
> than a pitot tube traverse. Anyone have a better idea?
>
> > As I want to measure the CO and CO2 from a cold stove being lighted
(which
> > is when the combustion is worst) I will have to have something that
> > stabilizes in a lot less than 11 minutes becase that is three times as
long
> > as a typical test!
>
> I agree with you and with Bryan that we want to know something about
> transient operation and especially specific actions. We might get more
> benefit out of working on specific combustion phases rather than the stove
> as a whole.
>
> Even if the response time refers to temperature and not CO, the long
> response is a problem, because the temperature will change when you light
> the stove. I am not sure, though, that another electrochem cell will fix
> the problem. I wonder how much of a comparison between two sensors is
> governed by one company being more honest or conservative than another,
> rather than actual performance. Let's see if we can get that issue
> straightened out. I think I will send Onset a message and I hope they do
> not get besieged with similar ones.
>
> > It is possible to use waste heat from the fire to preheat and dry out
more
> > fuelwood and if it is worth it, we can do that systematically.
>
> I think this is a really good idea. I have heard that people do that in
> some parts. Thanks for the reminder that the stove-fuel-cooking can be a
> system with more parts than a combustion box and longer timescales than
> dinner!
>
> Last: Bryan mentioned the need for calibration. Yes we need this, but as
> cal kits often run into the several hundreds of dollars, what shall we do?
> I can't think of a better idea than having a central calibration station
> where sensors get returned every year. The shipping would be much cheaper
> than the certified cal gas and much less training would be required.
> Ideas??
>
> Tami
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>
>

From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Sun Sep 22 11:54:59 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209221152590.38798-100000@homer05.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDCENMEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

Tami -

I have to confess that I don't know what a flow grid is.

- Bryan

>
> Best thing to do is put a really light draft on the hood, like a little
> blower. Is this possible? You need to make sure you are collecting all the
> exhaust, but not provide enough draft to affect the combustion. Then you
> have to measure the flow. The cheapest way I have found to do this is to
> attach a 6" flow grid ($25) to a pressure transducer with an analog
> output ($40). The flow grid gives you a better and quicker idea of flow
> than a pitot tube traverse. Anyone have a better idea?
>
> Ideas??
>
> Tami

From yark at u.washington.edu Sun Sep 22 12:09:08 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDCENMEEAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209221258110.139392-100000@homer38.u.washington.edu>

Bryan,

No confession required, they are not widely used, but they are handy.
Imagine a 6" (or 8") piece of sheet metal duct with a little metal square
suspended inside, with its plane perpendicular to the direction of flow.
In each side of the square, upstream and downstream, is a pressure tap.
The output is two pressure ports, each averaging 4 taps, one upstream and
one downstream. The principle is similar to the S-type pitot tube. The
grid is installed in-line with the duct.

They are not super accurate (10%?) but have some distinct advantages. You
don't have to worry about orientation (already mounted), or traversing,
and they seem to be relatively insensitive to flow that's not fully
developed if you don't have the luxury of 8 or 10 duct diameters
downstream. I think it is good enough for this application.

Tom's idea is cheaper! I don't have a sense of accuracy, though, as flow
through fan will depend on backpressure which increases a little as the
bag is filled. Maybe that doesn't matter.

Tami

From dstill at epud.net Sun Sep 22 12:28:47 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters and Savonius rotor
Message-ID: <002101c26211$af15c200$221e6c0c@default>

Dear Friends,

I've offered to send Dr. Willson the Onset HOBO CO data logger to determine
its usefulness. It's great that he is willing to take the time to look into
this matter. Hopefully, the List can help to find a low cost way to look at
emissions and then eventually we all will share data that is factual. Thanks
again to Bryan for his help!

By the way, recently I've been developing prototypes of horizontal Savonius
rotors set above the fire, (a big two bladed propeller), spun by the draft.
It is made out of a tin can with a piece of wire as the axle. Half the fan
is exposed to the "wind" in the chimney. The fan, which almost completely
fills the cylinder, spins at about 50 to 100 RPM or so which should create
a lot of mixing. Once we determine a inexpensive method for testing CO, etc.
I'd like to see if it has any effect.

Another approach that may have merit, or not, is to use tubes to direct air
into the fire. The front of the Rocket fuel magazine is partially blocked by
a guillotine door so pressure pulls air into tubes that then seem to create
turbulence in the fire. Since air is sucked between the sticks as well not
much pressure is developed but it's possible to see flames being effected by
the jets of air.

Best,

Dean

From english at kingston.net Sun Sep 22 16:27:00 2002
From: english at kingston.net (english@kingston.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <004901c26160$3cfa8180$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <3D8E279B.32399.2D2FFB8@localhost>

Dear Tami, Bryan, Dean and all,

Tami wrote:
Last: Bryan mentioned the need for
calibration. Yes we need this, but as
cal kits often run into the several
hundreds of dollars, what shall we do? I
can't think of a better idea than having
a central calibration station where
sensors get returned every year. The
shipping would be much cheaper than the
certified cal gas and much less training
would be required. Ideas??
'snip'

Calibration is often done at only two points,
ambient, where CO and CO2 are presumably zero, and at some other level
depending on the range your interested in. I have been
using a Bacharach Monoxor 2 for CO and Bacharach Fyrite system for CO2,
for several years. I have been able to get repeatable result
from a visually perfect flame of different sizes with a kerosine lamp.
CO 50ppm and CO2 4% +/- Have your lamp tested profesionally and then
reference it frequently with your equiptment.
Although this may not satisfy scientific protocals, it certainly has
offer me a small measure of confidence that the readings were relevant.
The same can be said for many propane, gas and oil burners.
Referencing and experimenting with refined fossil fuel combustion is also useful for
understanding the variables of time, temp, and turbulance and their effects on
emissions. In my opinion stove researchers can do a lot without expensive
calibration equiptment. If you still don't trust you equiptment, a once in a blue moon visit
to you nearest university chemical engineering lab my be in order.

Alex

From yark at u.washington.edu Sun Sep 22 21:16:06 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <3D8E279B.32399.2D2FFB8@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209222159380.183494-100000@homer01.u.washington.edu>

On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 english@kingston.net wrote:

> Calibration is often done at only two points, ambient,
> where CO and CO2 are presumably zero...
> I have been able to get repeatable result
> from a visually perfect flame of different sizes with a kerosine lamp.

<snip>

Cool idea.
How repeatable is the kerosene lamp? At least it might tell you whether
you had long-term drift.

The electrochemical sensors will eventually wear out especially if exposed
to high conc of CO. It will be important to monitor that. [Another reason
to build good stoves... equipment lasts longer ;-)]

Remember that Fyrite does not actually measure CO2 but rather infers it
from O2 reading based on fuel composition that you enter. So 'CO2' from
kerosene isn't the same as 'CO2' from methane or wood; but you are still
checking the performance of your O2 sensor on a time-dependent basis.

If anyone IS measuring CO2 and not O2-- remember that atmospheric
concentration of CO2 is NOT zero, but ~380 ppm (0.04%) and climbing. If
you're measuring exhaust diluted 10:1, then CO2 conc will be 0.5%-1% and
the 'zero' could be an error of 5-10%. If you're measuring right above the
burner, it doesn't matter as much.

Tami

From larch at kootenay.com Sun Sep 22 21:47:53 2002
From: larch at kootenay.com (David Strom)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO2 meters
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209222159380.183494-100000@homer01.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <3D8EB7EB.AE2AFD4F@kootenay.com>

My great uncle is involved in a business making sensors for gas concentration
including CO2. I don't know if they are suitable for stoves.
www.boreal-laser.com

David

>
>
> Remember that Fyrite does not actually measure CO2 but rather infers it
> from O2 reading based on fuel composition that you enter. So 'CO2' from
> kerosene isn't the same as 'CO2' from methane or wood; but you are still
> checking the performance of your O2 sensor on a time-dependent basis.
>
> If anyone IS measuring CO2 and not O2-- remember that atmospheric
> concentration of CO2 is NOT zero, but ~380 ppm (0.04%) and climbing. If
> you're measuring exhaust diluted 10:1, then CO2 conc will be 0.5%-1% and
> the 'zero' could be an error of 5-10%. If you're measuring right above the
> burner, it doesn't matter as much.
>
> Tami

From english at kingston.net Mon Sep 23 02:34:01 2002
From: english at kingston.net (english@kingston.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <3D8E279B.32399.2D2FFB8@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D8EB5D7.9498.199C05@localhost>

Tami,
I forgot how many of Bacharach's tools are called Fyrite. I am using the old liquid
sample and mix system for CO2, they have a similar one for O2 but the reagent is
different. I certainly don't trust reading on the low end to be very accurate. This has
limitations for fluctuating combustion, but is an excellent check against the continuous
O2 monitors.
Alex

> Remember that Fyrite does not actually measure CO2 but rather infers it
> from O2 reading based on fuel composition that you enter. So 'CO2' from
> kerosene isn't the same as 'CO2' from methane or wood; but you are still
> checking the performance of your O2 sensor on a time-dependent basis.
>
> If anyone IS measuring CO2 and not O2-- remember that atmospheric
> concentration of CO2 is NOT zero, but ~380 ppm (0.04%) and climbing. If
> you're measuring exhaust diluted 10:1, then CO2 conc will be 0.5%-1% and
> the 'zero' could be an error of 5-10%. If you're measuring right above the
> burner, it doesn't matter as much.
>
> Tami
>
>
>
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Sep 23 12:19:14 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: walking stove
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209212135440.116104-100000@homer06.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <004c01c2633f$1471ffa0$169efea9@home>

Dear Tami

I am happy to report that I have just driven back with 55 custom made 25
litre buckets for the first stoves for testing in Norther Province by GTZ
(next week).

>Have people tried adding a heavy base to a
>light stove? Does this make shipping prohibitive?

Mass does not matter if the stove is made locally. When it is shipped
anywhere else, and it is supposed to be commercially viable, it make a very
big difference.

It should be made so that mass can be added, or set it into a little
cement...

Regards
Crispin

From andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com Mon Sep 23 12:32:09 2002
From: andrew.heggie at dtn.ntl.com (AJH)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <3D8E279B.32399.2D2FFB8@localhost>
Message-ID: <nsruousgeb6gf0usgo7qih1b5ii1a818p6@4ax.com>

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 06:33:59 -0400, english@kingston.net wrote:

>I forgot how many of Bacharach's tools are called Fyrite. I am using the old liquid
>sample and mix system for CO2, they have a similar one for O2 but the reagent is
>different.

Is this a reagent that you bubble a measured amount of flue gas
through and then judge the change in colour. A bit like the liquid we
test ic engines for blown head gaskets?

AJH

From english at kingston.net Mon Sep 23 13:44:26 2002
From: english at kingston.net (english@kingston.net)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <3D8EB5D7.9498.199C05@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D8F52FF.16324.27F9878@localhost>

Andrew,
The gas is mixed with the liquid by inverting the container with the trapped gas sample
which essentially means bubbling it through the liquid, then you read scale which
correlates the change in volume.
Alex
> Is this a reagent that you bubble a measured amount of flue gas
> through and then judge the change in colour. A bit like the liquid we
> test ic engines for blown head gaskets?
>
> AJH
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm
>

From dstill at epud.net Mon Sep 23 20:26:19 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: November Aprovecho Stove Course
Message-ID: <007001c26310$c6d0e280$601e6c0c@default>

Dear Friends,

There is sufficient interest to offer another stove course at Aprovecho
Research Center, November 11 to 15. We'll be looking at stove design and
improving heat transfer to the pot. Participants will learn how to make
insulative ceramic stoves and I'd like to build a 3rd generation wood fired
bread oven. The current model, made from three steel drums, uses 11 pounds
of wood to cook 66 pounds of bread. We hope to do better. For information,
please contact me.

Best,

Dean Still
Advanced Studies in Appropriate Technology
Aprovecho
541 942 0302

From dstill at epud.net Mon Sep 23 20:31:04 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: November Aprovecho Stove Course
Message-ID: <007601c26311$70e45040$601e6c0c@default>

Dear Friends,

There is sufficient interest to offer another wood burning vernacular stove
course at Aprovecho Research Center, November 11 to 15. We'll be looking at
stove design and improving heat transfer to the pot. Participants will learn
how to make insulative ceramic stoves and I'd like to build a 3rd generation
wood fired bread oven. The current model, made from three steel drums, uses
11 pounds of wood to cook 66 pounds of bread. We hope to do better. For
information, please contact me.

Best,

Dean Still
Advanced Studies in Appropriate Technology
Aprovecho
541 942 0302

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Sep 23 23:57:43 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: RE Coal stoves needed 2
Message-ID: <006601c263a1$8364c8e0$2a47fea9@md>

Dear John Davies

I was in JHB yesterday but very rushed however apart from not getting to see
you, I did get to see some sizes of can that were attractive to me. I found
and bought a 50 litre and a 40 litre , the former of which is probably deep
enough to burn coal in, possibly without a chimney if the grate gets hot
enough. There is enough space on the 40 litre on to put a chimney on the
side which would guarantee a working coal stove. One issue is the cost -
R43.50 ($4.10) which is a pretty big bite to start off with. The 0.45 thick
25 litre pails with clamp ring and lid are R33 or so.

>Looks as if I must visit the passport office

I will probably be up again one the weekend I think to meet with Cecil Cook
(the beard) from Technoshares and David Hancock (the famous). I have to
bring up 10 stoves for the GTZ trial parallel with the Rocket stove in
Limpopo.

Rgards
Crispin
(082-580-0371 when in the country)

From dstill at epud.net Tue Sep 24 11:59:08 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: November Aprovecho Stove Course
Message-ID: <002c01c2637e$08288ea0$511e6c0c@default>

Dear Ray,

I should have said that Aprovecho is located on the West coast of the United
States, 20 miles south of Eugene, Oregon. The land trust property is 40
acres, mostly wooded (100 foot tall Douglas fir trees), except for a 5 acre
spot used for gardening, dormitory, staff houses. We are out in the country
at the end of a small gravel road yet only 45 minutes from the facilities at
the University of Oregon. 14 undergraduate students are usually in residence
studying organic gardening, sustainable forestry, appropriate technology,
permaculture. There are 8 staff members, 7 consultants. I represent the
studies in AT but equally important are the related fields that we hope make
up an approach to sustainable living.

Best,

Dean
www.efn.org/~apro
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Wijewardene <raywije@eureka.lk>
To: Dean Still <dstill@epud.net>
Date: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 3:21 AM
Subject: RE: November Aprovecho Stove Course

>Dear Dean...Please forgive my abject ignorance...but where is Aprovecho?
>
>Ray Wijewardene.....Colombo...Sri Lanka.
>

From brunom1 at yucom.be Tue Sep 24 14:50:41 2002
From: brunom1 at yucom.be (Bruno M.)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <004901c26160$3cfa8180$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020925001729.00a5ba00@pop3.yucom.be>

hi stovers,
i don't have much recent experience with CO measuring,
but since there were so much postings about it,
and I just received there 2000 page catalog in my mailbox;
I like to give you this link (FWIW), they are a worldwide distributor
of lab and testing devices : Cole-Palmer,
See http://www.coleparmer.com/index.asp
When you put "combustion analyzers" in there search window :
You'll get different types of hand held, portable and lab analyzers,
some of them with datalog function.
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/search_proc.asp?src=Combustion%20Analyzers&cat=1,14,15
You'll find specifications and prices, but I didn't find anything
about response times of there CO cells however :-(

And a small question to Brian, about the "suspending pot"
Don't you lose a little bit of heat transfer to the pot, if you like
also to measure the time to heat or boil a certain amount of water?
I mean : because you lose the heat transfer by <conduction> between the
(hot) ( metal) support and the pot.
If your test is only about CO and other flue gas specs it makes no
difference off corse.

Kind regards

Bruno Meersman

==========================================
At 12:18 22/09/2002 -0700, TAMI BOND wrote:

>Crispin,
>
> > I do have the capability to weight the entire stove to 2 grams and we do
> > watch the fuel burn and the water temp rise. This is very good for the
> short
> > time (3 or 4 mintes) until the water starts boiling and then it is a guess
> > thereafter because some of the loss is water and some is fuel.
>
>Bryan had lots of good ideas here (suspending pot etc). Another thing you
>need is a measure of flow rate through your hood-- I assume you have a
>hood collecting the exhaust. Since you are measuring the CO after the
>stove exhaust has entrained some air, the concentration is affected by how
>much dilution has occurred. To remove that effect, and to allow you to
>calculate total CO emitted, you have to measure either volume flow rate at
>the point of CO measurement, or CO2 at the point of measurement. (Another
>way to do it, which has been discussed on this list, is to dump the
>exhaust into a known volume. But this does not allow you to look at your
>transients very well.)
>...cut...
>Tami

-----------------------------------------------------
Reply's to BrunoM1@yucom.be

From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Sep 25 14:46:31 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: Juntos Stove test
Message-ID: <009c01c264e5$e430ffa0$c754fea9@home>

Dear Friends and Stovers Alike (are stovers alike?)

I have just had an intense visit from Paul Anderson who drove in from Maputo
this morning. He brought two stoves and we have fun smoking ourselves out
and playing with fire.

Without saying too much about the internal constructions, I can say that
Paul has taken up the suggestion to try coconut husks as a fuel and that
they do indeed burn pretty cleanly when you get enough of them in a grate.
There is only one productive coconut palm in Swaziland but just over the
Lubombo Mountain range there are PLENTY. The husks are a completely wasted
fuel that shows promise.

The Juntos stove is a gassifying charcoal producing stove. He brought a
complete burner unit which I fixed to a slide-in plate for his custom-made
research-oriented Baking Stove. This is essentially the same unit that we
have shown on the website www.newdawn-engineering.com with collapsing
features. The stove allows Paul to slide in different burners 'on the fly'
and also to recharge the fuel container.

I had a chance to see Tom Reed's Turbo stove close up and ran the fan,
though I didn't need to light it. It is clear how it works. It is a very
neat little package. I think it would be good mass produced and would
probably cost less than $10 to make in Swaziland.

Paul's slide-in gassifier unit top lights and burns down to charcoal.
During that process there are the usual flames from the top and preheated
secondary air provided, a-la-Basintuthu flow pattern. It works well and has
I would guess about 3 kw output. The primary air control is quite good -
nearly absolute. We didn't have time to really check out what power range
it can change from and to, but it clearly makes a different when the primary
air is opened or closed.

The coconut test went well with the stove having preheated primary and
secondary air.and LOTS of space for fuel.

One of the things the tests today did for me was to convince me again that I
am not going for charcoal producing stoves. There is simply no reason to do
so - or none that I can find. The amount left at the bottom is tiny.

Someone asked my a few months ago if I had ever top lit the Basintuthu Stove
and I replied, "No". So today l put a standard Basintuthu grate into the
baking stove, filled it 1/2 way and Paul put some of his starter mix on top.
It was lit and we watched.

There was a significant difference in the way it burned down to the bottom
comparesd with the the Juntos. First there was the usual gassifying/flame
that you find in a top lit stove. It was very clean burning and basically
had no smoke whatsoever at any time, right through to the end. The fuel
(wood) burned down to a little white ash without any problem. It didn't
smoke at any time.

There was a strong wind gusting today and many times the flame on the
gassifying stoves and burners had to be re-lit. This is very inconvenient.
Part of the problem was that we kept looking into the stove to see and take
pics, but even when it was closed up there were still times when the flame,
dancing as it does part way up the combustion chamber, simply went out, even
at high power.

Interestingly, the top lit charge in the regular grate that comes with the
stove did not do this flaming out. Once embers started dropping into the
fuel load, there was enough 'real' fire in the top end of the fuel to
prevent the flame going out, even though it was ostensibly working in a
gassifying mode. The reason for this is that there are holes all the way up
the side of the fire grate/container. There is primary and secondary
combustion at all fuel levels. As the fuel level dropped, so did the
combustion. When everything was turned to charcoal, the fire simply
switched over seamlessly to a charcoal burning mode which continued until it
went out.

So, I am convinced that if you want a relatively low heat from the standard
stove, you can top light it and avoid the little bit of initial smoke that
emerges when the fuel is getting heated up. It requires a starter mix to
get it going, and it does not have the capacity to be fired up quickly.

Bottom lighting in the same grate provides a little smoke initially until
the secondary hot air kicks in (30 to 90 seconds) and gives a lot more power
initially which is required to heat up the food and pot. This is a
significant point. Stoves don't just burn for our entertainment - they have
to work for a living. We need a high heat for about 20 minutes and then a
low heat for 45 to 120 minutes. The present arrangement seems to provide
that facility.

A subjective comparison of the Juntos and Basintuthu burners in the same
baking stove was made. It showed me that the gassifying stove is not all
that smoke-free because at the end of the burn, there is actually a lot of
smoke. They are very sensitive to drafts and wind. An open flame must be
used in order to relight a gassifying stove. When you see smoke pouring
out, it is not immediately clear whether the fire has gone out or the fuel
has charcoaled completely. There is nearly no hope of burning the charcoal
as the air supply is so necessarily limited.

I learned that the Basintuthu grate can be top lit and is very clean from
beginning to end, but this process limits the initial power output and
requires 'starter' fuel. When all the fuel is charcoaled, it continues to
burn without any intervention.

Bottom lighting creates some smoke to begin with and more each time fuel is
added (until it heats up the surface). It has a power output profile that
matches the cooking requirements and requires no starter fuel other than
paper or twigs. The fire is very stable in a windy environment because it
self-lights immediately because the flaming stage is next to the coals.

The fact there was a chimney on the stove seemed to help both burners.

Conclusion: I still can't find a reason to build a gassifying stove, open
as I am to the general idea. Tom's creation is very compact but needs a
fan. Perhaps a 'wick' is required to control heat, air movement, and flame
position in an unpowered gassifying stove.

Regards
Crispin

From yark at u.washington.edu Wed Sep 25 21:28:35 2002
From: yark at u.washington.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: Off-topic question
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.44.0209252220070.145612-100000@homer05.u.washington.edu>

Stovers:

I have a non-stoves (but residential-energy related) question-- please
respond off-list. I'm curious about end uses of what IEA (International
Energy Agency) calls 'gas/diesel oil' in the residential sector. This is
something like no.2 heating oil that is burned in oil furnaces here in the
U.S. It could also be used in backup (or primary?)diesel generators. If
anyone elsewhere in the world has a spare minute, can you drop me a line
to say whether your region has more oil furnaces, more diesel generators,
or lots of both? (Or anything else?)

thanks much.
Tami

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Sep 26 13:25:15 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: RE Coal stoves needed 2
In-Reply-To: <006601c263a1$8364c8e0$2a47fea9@md>
Message-ID: <002601c265a3$4bc56ee0$743bfea9@home>

Dear John

I will be at the airport at 5 on Saturday but I don't think we will get
together this weekend - too much happening with getting 10 stoves (min.) to
David Hancock and Marlis for Monday.

>It is good to know that such cans are available. What are the dimensions ?

I am copying this to the group so people know what is on offer. This is not
a comprehensive list, but are common enough to warrant listing. All the
cans are measured in inch sizes but I know them by their metric equivalents.

Cans are measured in diameter, wall thickness, total height, and inside
height which is the total height less the inward bumped bottom and the lid
thickness. A typical description is 25/0.45 which means 25 litre 0.45mm
wall thickness.

There seem to be 4 standard wall thicknesses and many cans can be ordered in
several of them. They are: 0.3mm, 0.38mm, 0.45mm and 0.6mm. An experiment
with 0.2mm stainless steel 5 litre cans is being conducted in JHB at the
moment to see if they weld properly.

5 litre paint cans are 178 in diameter, and about 205 high. They are
parallel sided.
10 litre cans (the newest ones) are 287 in diameter at the top and have
parallel sides, with a tapered bottom 85mm. The bottoms are one size for
many volumes: 273mm.
20 litre cans are parallel sided and 287 in diameter. Parallel means that
most of it really is, but the bottom 85mm is tapered down to 273.
25 litre cans are parallel 287 (with tapered bottom 85) or else continuous
tapered 287 to 273. They are 455mm high. You can have bumps (swages)
wherever you like. I have them at 75, 150 and 235 from the top. Oil cans
often have one 85 from the bottom. Paint tins usually have only one at 180
from the top. The wall thickness is 0.38 standard and 0.45 on order only.
36 litre tins are actually used mostly for making floor mop buckets. They
are 354 in diameter and short (to suit 36 litres). It has parallel sides.
This 354 is a standard diameter for all the larger tins.
The 40 litre tin is 354 in diameter and parallel sided. It is 455 high. It
is also uncommon. I only obtained one with difficulty and cooperation but
they can be ordered.
The 50 litre is 354 in diameter and 560 (or so) high outside. It is 0.45
thick and looks huge. I paid R43.50 for the 50 lit. and the 40 was a little
more - about R45.00. It is a straight taper.
The 50 kg (different size) is a little taller.
The 60 kg one is the type the HTH pool chlorine comes in with rectangular
bumps (swages) giving it superior rolling characteristics with a heavy load
inside. The 'ring' is patented and they are not allowed to sell that
container to anyone else.
The 210 litre drum is a standard oil drum. They are available with a screw
in hole closure of an open top with clamp ring.

To give you an idea how much they cost, a 25 litre 0.38 wall tapered tin
with 3 bumps, a handle, a bottom and a loose top with a clamp ring costs
about $2.90. That includes a painted exterior as far as I can remember.

>At the moment I am striving to develop a replacement for the embaula

I feel that the 50 litre can is high enough and robust enough to make a
viable coal burner, through it will still probably have to have a chimney
for extra draft, at least one pipe (1.2M long), perhaps on the side.

I have faced the same problem you have: the coal will not give off useful
heat without draft. We only have local semi-anthracite.

Your 150mm diameter model should work better than the 100 dia because it is
easier to keep the coal hot when there is more of it. But I think it is
still too short. Try the 50 litre can and a side chimney. Contact Rheem at
21 Potgeiter St, Alrode. Actually you would probably be better with a
smaller diameter than 150 because you will struggle to get the air to feed
into the centre, I think, with a low draft. How about 125 and lots of
preheating? It will have to be stainless. Why don't you buy a 3CR12 grate
from me. I can leave one with David Hancock (who is moving to PTA this
weekend). Or RUTEC at 58 Marshall St., Marshalltown.

Pre-heating the primary air (which Paul has achieved nicely with the Juntos)
will increase the total draft in whatever height you have. I think with
coal you should be able to get 250 to 300 degrees.

Thanks for the invite. I show certainly drop in one day. I think I still
have some directions you emailed to the group.

Let's clean up Daveyton!

Regards
Crispin

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Fri Sep 27 05:12:29 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Roberto_Escard=F3?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:11 2004
Subject: TUFA - AAC
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020903160039.00a93950@localhost>
Message-ID: <023501c26627$189d87d0$0100a8c0@pentium>

On the subject:
Has anybody ever tried TUFA (Toba in
spanish) as an building material for combustion chambers?
I suspect that under the generic
name there are many different chemical and crystal varities. We have here one
that resemble AAC.
In my last Andean trip I saw a
traditional high.mass mud oven isolated externally with tufa bricks, some 20
centimeters wide. The oven was really hot and it was beeing running for a
few hours, the external wall temp was near ambient. (Aborigin
technology!!!) I only could get a small sample, it seems quite shock
resistantant but you can cut it with a saw. I hope to made some experiments
in a few months.
Comments?
Roberto.

From robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar Fri Sep 27 05:14:20 2002
From: robertoescardo at arnet.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Roberto_Escard=F3?=)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: A note in AAC
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020903160039.00a93950@localhost>
Message-ID: <023401c26627$168221e0$0100a8c0@pentium>

Peter:
Mas vale tarde que nunca. (Translation:
It´s better late than never)
The HEBEL support engineer here gave as
the following info:
All
cement-based materials are vulnerable to the attack of atmospheric carbon
dioxide In concrete due to
the scarce diffusion of gas in their interior; the effect is only
superficial. AAC is a lot more
permeable to air and it absorbs carbon dioxide easily, then the hydrated lime,
either from the cement free lime or from the Si and Al hydrates reacts with the CO2 forming
calcium carbonate:
 Ca(OH)2 +
CO2--------CO3Ca + H2O
 Carbonatization causes a decrease of
volume, denominated
"carbonatization contraction". If CO2 concentration is high, or the
exposure time is enough long, the contraction originates fissures. In AAC during the curing Ca hydrates react with
the sand Si forming highly stable tebermorite so "carbonatization contraction"
tends to be small. The
risk from atmospheric CO2 contamination is very low, but is not the case in a
combustion chamber or chimney.

HEBEL of
Germany recommends coating chimneys or smoking conduits with refractory bricks
to avoid carbonisation.
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Other
point in combustion chambers is
permanent exposure to flames. AAC resists a flame temp of 1000 ºC 240 minutes without any loss of
stability. If exposure time is much longer, the combined water of moisturized
cement will evaporate, degrading the material
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Regard
<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Roberto.

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<A title=pverhaart@optusnet.com.au
href="mailto:pverhaart@optusnet.com.au">Peter Verhaart
To: <A title=stoves@crest.org
href="mailto:stoves@crest.org">stoves@crest.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:01
AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: A note in AAC

Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:59:55
+1000To: Roberto Escardó <<A
href="mailto:robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar">robertoescardo@arnet.com.ar>From:
Peter Verhaart <<A
href="mailto:pverhaart@optusnet.com.au">pverhaart@optusnet.com.au>Subject:
Re: A note in AACMaybe you should do a test. Did the man tell you
what chemical reactions you could expect?Peter VerhaartAt
18:56 02/09/02 -0300, you wrote:
Autoclaved Aerated Concrete
(AAC) There was
a thread about AAC some weeks ago: An young engineer workinkg with us
contacted last week a local maker (under a licence from Hebel in Germany)
The sales technician was very collaborative and he quickly discouraged us
about using it for combustion chambers: AAC is atacked by
CO2!!!(Big note in
Manuals: carefully protect any chimney made with AAC bricks with
refractory bricks - AAC dose not stand CO2 exposure) Pitty, it sounded as
a nice material for combustion chambers!!Roberto
Escardó

From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Fri Sep 27 07:29:53 2002
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
Message-ID: <3D943291.32209.A9E8A89@localhost>

Gentle stovers,

Please forgive the somewhat off topic questions, but I can't think of
a better-qualified group.

I'm contemplating replacing the (aging, airtight) wood stove that
provides all space heating for our small (800 sq ft) rural home.

We are home almost all the time, so tending the stove isn't a big
problem. If we end up with something that requires less attention
(i.e. is more automated), that would be a bonus, but the goals for
upgrading are quite simply to burn less fuel and to burn it as
cleanly as possible. From deadfall and beaver kill alone, the
property can supply us indefinitely with (primarily) aspen cordwood,
so we're not keen to look at pellet stoves et al.

A major purchase decision is whether/not to go for a model with a
catalytic converter. I'm getting a lot of conflicting information.

1. I have read that "cat's" create, as well as mitigate, air
pollution problems. I'm not in any way endorsing this particular
site, but a quick search provided this representative article:

http://www.junkscience.com/news2/catalyt.htm

Does anyone on the list know what the current wisdom is in this
regard?

2. Third-hand information from a local suggested that much more
stovepipe / chimney cleaning was necessary with a cat. This is the
opposite of what I would have expected; I was immediately suspicious
that the culprit was the operating mode (seriously damped intake) not
the cat per se. Again, any informed comment is welcome.

3. The cat must be replaced from time to time. There's an associated
cost (not inconsequential), but I don't care so much about that as
the disposal issues associated with the spent converter. Any
particular concerns here?

There is nothing "wrong" with my current stove; I do not "need" to
replace it. What I'm trying to avoid is the irony of upgrading only
to worsen rather than improve the situation, particularly with
respect to air pollution.

BTW, If this house was suitable for a masonry stove retrofit, that
would be my prefered choice, but it's simply not practical here.

Hoping the intrusion is not too unwelcome, and very best regards,
Scott Willing

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Fri Sep 27 07:59:12 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
In-Reply-To: <3D943291.32209.A9E8A89@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020927155409.GB11787@cybershamanix.com>

You might want to ask this question as well on the woodheat list at
http://groups.yahoo.com/woodheat
Be forewarned, however, that unlike this group, the list manager there is
totally opposed to people building their own, or modifying commercial
stoves. But there is a fairly good amount of info on commercial stoves.

On Fri, Sep 27, 2002 at 10:27:29AM -0500, Scott Willing wrote:
> Gentle stovers,
>
> Please forgive the somewhat off topic questions, but I can't think of
> a better-qualified group.
>
> I'm contemplating replacing the (aging, airtight) wood stove that
> provides all space heating for our small (800 sq ft) rural home.
>
> We are home almost all the time, so tending the stove isn't a big
> problem. If we end up with something that requires less attention
> (i.e. is more automated), that would be a bonus, but the goals for
> upgrading are quite simply to burn less fuel and to burn it as
> cleanly as possible. From deadfall and beaver kill alone, the
> property can supply us indefinitely with (primarily) aspen cordwood,
> so we're not keen to look at pellet stoves et al.
>
> A major purchase decision is whether/not to go for a model with a
> catalytic converter. I'm getting a lot of conflicting information.
>
> 1. I have read that "cat's" create, as well as mitigate, air
> pollution problems. I'm not in any way endorsing this particular
> site, but a quick search provided this representative article:
>
> http://www.junkscience.com/news2/catalyt.htm
>
> Does anyone on the list know what the current wisdom is in this
> regard?
>
> 2. Third-hand information from a local suggested that much more
> stovepipe / chimney cleaning was necessary with a cat. This is the
> opposite of what I would have expected; I was immediately suspicious
> that the culprit was the operating mode (seriously damped intake) not
> the cat per se. Again, any informed comment is welcome.
>
> 3. The cat must be replaced from time to time. There's an associated
> cost (not inconsequential), but I don't care so much about that as
> the disposal issues associated with the spent converter. Any
> particular concerns here?
>
> There is nothing "wrong" with my current stove; I do not "need" to
> replace it. What I'm trying to avoid is the irony of upgrading only
> to worsen rather than improve the situation, particularly with
> respect to air pollution.
>
> BTW, If this house was suitable for a masonry stove retrofit, that
> would be my prefered choice, but it's simply not practical here.
>
> Hoping the intrusion is not too unwelcome, and very best regards,
> Scott Willing
>
> -
> Stoves List Archives and Website:
> http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
> http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
> List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
> >
> For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
> >http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.htm

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From dstill at epud.net Fri Sep 27 22:00:51 2002
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
Message-ID: <00e301c2670a$a827a6e0$9a1e6c0c@default>

Dear Scott,

In my own experience I have not found that catalytic converters are always
successful. I was told by the manufacturer that the cat. needs to be 500F or
above but not touched by flame which destroys the unit. Perhaps these
conditions are not always met? I don't know. I just know that adding a cat
to a cooking stove did not visibly reduce smoke.

Heating stoves have a tough job. Throwing logs into the steel box is like
throwing a lot of gas down the carburetor of a car, probably going to smoke.
Metering the fuel is the highest priority in clean burning which is the
beauty of a pellet stove. High mass stoves can also burn cleanly because a
big hot fire burns a lot of wood all at once. A raging fire is really hot
and burns clean. But if you do this in your low mass stove in your 800sf
cabin you might well overheat, the convoluted mass stores heat but its
temperature doesn't rise so precipitously.

Metering the fuel is possible into smaller stoves by spending the time to
chop up your wood more. Then make a hot fire using less wood. More tending
can become a drag and can be replaced by all kinds of automation, tubes that
deliver the tips of the wood as it is burnt, etc. Make a home grown pellet
stove that burns twigs from your acreage? Drop chunks into the fire every
ten minutes? Rattle long skinny logs down a nearly vertical bouncing tube
into the combustion chamber? Then we get really clean burning...Step ONE.

Additionally, the way to save fuel wood (Step TWO) is to increase heat
transfer to the room. Add a heat exchanger to the stovepipe, above the
stove, so that more heat stays in the house, doesn't escape out into winter.
A hot clean burn coupled to an effective heat exchanger can lessen emissions
and radically decrease fuel use. The clean burn gets rid of creosote and
then add surface area to the heat exchanger until exit temperatures are
around 250F. Or add a fan and decrease exit temperatures to ambient.

Or, best option, decrease air exchanges and insulate your house, heavy
chairs, book lined walls, etc. so that once warm the interior holds the heat
overnight. Use tightness and superinsulation to hold heat without a lot of
added mass. Do one or two small really hot clean burns and don't loose the
heat. Replace stale indoor air with a fan operated air to air heat
exchanger. The only reason heating stoves need to burn for long periods is
that houses are very leaky. Fix the leaks and save the wood. Don't pollute:
capture heat.

Best,

Dean-

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Sep 28 00:38:25 2002
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
In-Reply-To: <00e301c2670a$a827a6e0$9a1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <002801c266cb$0938b220$3d39fea9@home>

Dear Home Heaters

I agree with a lot of Dean's suggestions, but not the one about driving the
exit temperature down to ambient. H2SO3 (hydro sulphurous acid)
precipitates out of wood smoke at about 150 deg C and eats the daylights out
of the chimney pipes. Keep you exit temperature above 160 C so you don't
have to replace metal parts so often.

Also, if you happen not get complete creosote decomposition there is an
immediate threat from the condensing of the creosote on the chimney surface
which accumulates and can lead to horrendous chimney fires when a hot fire
is lit at a later period (typically on a very cold night). Then, like my
former neighbours, you are butt-naked in the snow warming yourself with the
remains of the livingroom floor joists.

Regards
Crispin heading towards David Hancock's house

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sat Sep 28 06:35:23 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
In-Reply-To: <00e301c2670a$a827a6e0$9a1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <20020928143225.GA12698@cybershamanix.com>

On Sat, Sep 28, 2002 at 09:16:58AM -0700, Dean Still wrote:

(snip)

>
> Metering the fuel is possible into smaller stoves by spending the time to
> chop up your wood more. Then make a hot fire using less wood. More tending
> can become a drag and can be replaced by all kinds of automation, tubes that
> deliver the tips of the wood as it is burnt, etc. Make a home grown pellet
> stove that burns twigs from your acreage? Drop chunks into the fire every
> ten minutes? Rattle long skinny logs down a nearly vertical bouncing tube
> into the combustion chamber? Then we get really clean burning...Step ONE.

A really simple way to get cleaner burns from an unmodified heating stove is
to do top-down burns. Load the big logs into the bottom, kindling and paper at
the very top, let burn down totally to ash and start over.

> Additionally, the way to save fuel wood (Step TWO) is to increase heat
> transfer to the room. Add a heat exchanger to the stovepipe, above the
> stove, so that more heat stays in the house, doesn't escape out into winter.

Don't just add a heat exchanger, make it a secondary burning chamber as
well. Put a 5 or even 10 gallon drum on top of the stove with adjustable air
inlets where the smoke first comes into the stove. Maybe add a small blower
to those inlets as well. Or, if your stove already has a secondary burning
chamber, try adding a very small blower to that secondary air inlet.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Sep 28 09:33:56 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: Re -Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Stumpf - #2)
In-Reply-To: <3D903C89.18993.612A2F@localhost>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIEEANCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers (cc Elmar Stumpf):

This is to follow up on the earlier September 18 dialog on oil cookers -
which began with a mention from A.D. Karve.

I just realized that this message four days ago from Elmar had only come to
myself. Elmar - my apologies for the delay.

I have added brief notes on Q3, Q5a, Q5b and Q9

Elmar has asked for our help on Q7.

Elmar:

Thanks. This is one of the most complete inputs we have ever had on
"stoves". The big surprise to me is the conclusion that you can cook a meal
with oils at half the price of urban-purchased fuel wood on open fires
(Response to Q6). This says that improved wood stoves have to do at least
this well (efficiency doubling) also. I look forward to hearing of the
other work that is on-going; please consider this a request to let us know
more as your results come in.

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Elmar Stumpf: stumpf@ats.uni-hohenheim.de
[mailto:Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de]
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 2:21 AM
To: Ron Larson
Subject: Re: FW: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Stumpf)

<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>Dear Ron, dear all,

thank you very much for your interest in our stove. I was - again - out of
office
some days, therefore I couldn't get back to you earlier.

Now - let me answer your questions:

1.) Costs

We did not yet do a detailed costs analysis of the actual stove costs -
nevertheless, we put a lot of emphasis of designing a stove which is
affordable to the people.

We need a tank including an air pump with a pot support just like the
kerosene stoves (we can also used those parts from existing kerosene
stoves, which answers your question number 3.). Moreover, we need the
plant oil burner, which functions like the kerosene stoves, but is
completely
re-designed. Maybe, this burner might be slightly more expensive than the
kerosene burners, however, producing the stove in a tropical or subtropical
country we expect the production costs within the same range as the costs
for producing a kerosene pressure stove. Those ones - as you know - are
sold in India for example for around 12 US-$ (if I remember the personal
comment of Dr. Karve right). We bought some kerosene pressure stoves in
the Philippines for 10 - 12 US-$. So - we are talking of a retail price (for
sure)
of less than 20 $ for a basic stove modell if it is produced in mass
production.

2.) principal things that changes the stove design

Well - this is quite a challenge to give you a short description of 5 years
basic
research studies. Our burner is - as written before - completely new. The
basic problem is the temperature of the vaporizer which has to be sufficient
for a complete vaporization as well as combustion of the plant oil in the
burner. This required a new design of the vaporizer which has to maintain
this temperature not only at high but also at low power outputs of the
burner
while high power outputs leads to high flame temperatures and low power
outputs to lower temperatures within the burner.

3.) see above [RWL insert - this was on doing c conversion oneself]

4.) Gravity feed mechanism

Our cooking stoves runs with a pressure of more than 2.5 bars. Therefore
using gravity does not seem to be a good alternative.

5.) Pollution emissions and efficiency.

Yes, we already did emission and efficiency testing. Starting with the

Efficiency: we did the testing according to the Water Boiling Test and got
an
efficiency range between 40 - 45 % (depending on the power output);
nevertheless this is still subject to further optimization and some 50 of 52
%
seem to be quite feasible (it would be great if I could get any information
of
anyone who knows about enhancing efficiencies of liquid fuel cooking
stoves).

[RWL insert - I believe the ideas of Dr. Karve (mentioned by Sam Baldwin
as the first time I saw it) of putting a "convection-enhancing" cylindrical
ring around the cookpot will add a good bit of efficiency.]

Emissions: regarding CO-emissions we stay within the range of gas cooking
stoves for Europe (DIN EN 3O) which allow no more than 1000 mg/m^3 in
the exhaust gas with 0 % oxygene. We did this testing for one open fire and
got a value of more than 20000 mg/^m3. The Hydrocarbon emissions are
likewise some 200 - 400 times lower than the emissions of open fires. The
NOx and SO2 emissions are negligible. Comparing our stove to the existing
kerosene stoves: our stove emissions are within the same range or
somewhat lower than the kerosene pressure stove emissions (depending on
the stove, of course) and very much lower than the kerosene wick stove
emissions.

[RWL insert: Could you expand on you meaning of "0% oxygen(e)"? With some
nice recent messages on testing, I think we all would like to know more
details (or a reference) on the details of your measurement set up.]

6.) Costs of typical meal

We did not yet do this analysis. For the Philippines, we did some
preliminary
work on the cost analysis for utilizing crude coconut oil as cooking fuel.
It
turned out that the running costs (taking the energy in the cooking pot as
the
basis for comparison) for coconut oil is within the same range as the
(slightly
subsidized) kerosene (while the price of kerosene will rise in the future
for
sure), lower than gas or charcoal and about half of the price of fuel wood
(bought at the market) on open fires. Still more detailed costs analysis
have
to be made. However, if we utilize used oil (from McDonalds, ....) in our
stove, the running costs will be even lower.

7.) Costs for seed oils in different locations

I would appreciate more information from the stove list members to get more
information about this issue.

8.) Gel alcohols as stove approach

We think, utilizing plant oils as cooking fuel might have the potential to
play
an important role in different parts of the world within the nearest future.
However, the future cooking energy will be covered with a mix of different
energy </color>forms <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>including energy
saving wood stoves, charcoal stoves, plant oil
stove and so on. The alcohol gel fuel may also play a role in this list.

9.) Economics etc.

[Larson insert of full question: How does the economics of other attributes
of the native species fit in >(use for soil preservation, nitrogenation,
firewood benefits, left over >economic value of the seed cake, etc)?

</color>Well - this is really a broad area: utilizing plant oils as cooking
fueld does
have numerous ecological as well as economical and social advantages. Let
me get a short list for you

socio-economic benefits (among others)

a) local production of plant oil as fuel provides income opportunities for
local
population

b) sustainable energy system due to local production of the fuel

c) press-cake as a by-product of the oil pressing process can be sold as
animal food or fertilizer

d) plant oils substitute fossil fuels such as petroleum - import and
subsidization of those fossil fuels burdens ofteh the national budget of
some
countries

e) plant oils are bio-degradable and handling is simple and free of danger

f) utilization of plant oils as fuel prevents users from severe operating
risks
related to the easy inflammation of kerosene

g) the plant oil stove runs not only on plant oils, but also on plant oil
esters,
kerosene, diesel fuel, and gasoline if necessary

h) local fabrication and maintenance of the plant oil cooker and its
equipment
provides employment opportunities

<flushboth>ecological advantages (among others):</flushboth>

i) using plant oils instead of wood as fuel reduces tree felling which has
negative ecological consequences including soil erosion and desertification

j) many oil-bearing plants grow on marginal land - utilization of their oils
as
fuel provide economic incentives to enhance their cultivation on unused
tracts and prevent further erosion

k) plant oils burn CO2-neutral

10.) Test results

We are right now running a more detailed test in Guatemala - unfortunately,
the test results are not yet available.

11.) Solar cookers

Well - I think, the big advantage of solar cookers it the low running costs
of
the energy - nevertheless, their utilization is connected with some
problems,
especially regarding cooking in the morning, in the evening, during rainy
season and so on.

This for today - I am looking forward to any comments, information,
questions etc.

Take care,

Elmar

Ron - I am already a stove list member for some years now and it has been
very interesting following the discussions!

<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>Datum: Wed, 18 Sep 2002
12:38:14 -0600

Von: "Ron Larson" <<ronallarson@qwest.net>

An: stoves@crest.org

Durchschläge an: stumpf@ats.uni-hohenheim.de,
Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de

Betreff: FW: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Stumpf)

<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>>Stovers - the following just in from
Elmar Stumpf on his stove for oils.

>Elmar - Thank you for this additional information you have supplied below.

<nofill>
von:
Dipl.-Ing. Elmar Stumpf, M.Sc./Univ. of Wisc.-Madison
Institute for Agricultural Engineering in the Tropics and Subtropics
Hohenheim University (495)
Garbenstr. 9, 70599 Stuttgart, Germany
Tel.: +49 (0)711 - 459 - 2840
Fax: +49 (0)711 - 459 - 3298
e-mail: stumpf@ats.uni-hohenheim.de

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Sep 28 12:39:45 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: Request for Comment on a Charcoal (Terra petra) Use Question
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIGEAPCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers (apologies in advance for a too-long message):

1. As most of you know, I am quite morbidly fixated on charcoal as a part
of the stoves options. But I do other things; as a member of its Board of
Directors, I am helping the American Solar Energy Society (ASES) in
fighting our US Department of Energy on its apparent decision to move
emphasis on hydrogen away from renewables towards coal and nuclear
production approaches. In the mention this past week by list-member Tom Reed
of list-member Tom Milne's April submission to us on the relationship
between Hydrogen and Biomass (his report for the IEA) - I reread that Milne
report and had the following (inspiration, dumb idea, wild thought,...?).
The idea is that maybe there is a relationship also with the world of global
warming (GW) and climate change. I hadn't earlier seen much connection to
"stoves", except through our (very important!) work to improve efficiency
and reduce emissions. Our best stoves work on these GW topics has come from
people like Kirk Smith, Dan Kammen, Tami Bond,.....

2. So this most recent idea is that maybe we should be thinking of stoves
as a way to assist even more on GW (and maybe hydrogen - see below) through
not just having a GW-neutral stove - but one that actually pumps CO2 out of
the atmosphere.

3. The only two (Stovers - is this true?) ways I know to do this are
a): to put the CO2 back deep into the ground or oceans as is being studied
by the coal and natural gas folks. I see no hope for this (at least at the
level of stoves) - but ask if anyone on our list sees this (CO2, not C,
removal) as a realistic possibility.
b): sequester the charcoal itself (from stoves or any other biomass
operation) - do not consume it at or near the place of charcoal manufacture.
This is virtually impossible for the coal and natural gas people to argue
for at the stoves level, I believe - so we have this field to ourselves.
[added note for John Davies and others working on coal-fired cooking and
heating stoves - this following idea might also apply to you - after you
obtain coke. I can conceive of that being considered sequestration as
well.)

4. Now one obvious choice for the charcoal to stay out of circulation is
as a carbon filament - useful for its nice (except for cost) properties
(weight, strength, etc). My friend Morey Wolfson today supplied me with
this reference for those who might want to pursue this nice option further:
http://www.byu.edu/news/releases/archive02/May/pyramatrix.htm

5. The other option only became obsessive to me when I spoke on Thursday
with list member Ralph Overend (I think the most knowledgeable biomass
person I have ever met). Ralph pointed me to the August 9 Issue of Science
magazine (pp 920-923)- which is on the subject of "terra petra". A little
time on "google" got me this web site for one of two Thomas Mann news
stories on this topic:
http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmpr/uvmclips/Augustclips/SciencePetersonDirt.html
It is also available for a fee from the Science Magazine website - and
probably with the photos. As this is maybe the most popular science
magazine - you may find it at your local library, which was my first
approach.

6. To whet your appetite, let me say that I found this article to be very
fascinating on many other levels than any so far mentioned by me. To not
keep you in suspense, the article reports that there are big parts (10%?) of
Brazil with a highly productive soil - much different from the typical soil
that we hear is in such danger from the felling of the Amazonian forests.
The difference is that terra petra is a man-made soil - with the main
ingredient (I think and I think they think) being charcoal. It was man-made
starting maybe 1500 years ago with 1/2 to 2 meter depth. Terra petra's
significance was only discovered in the past decade or two. This August
"Science" article reports on the first-ever conference in July on the Terra
petra (dark earth in Portuguese) topic. The big questions raised are: Why
does it work?, How was the charcoal produced? Why are there so many pot
shards in the soil along with the charcoal? Is there some other magic
ingredient in this soil besides the charcoal? Was the reason for man-made
soil (with same-site agricultural longevity measured in millennia) that it
was too difficult to practice slash-and-burn agriculture when your best tool
for cutting big trees was a stone axe? I expect our botanists on this list
like A.D Karve, Harmon Seaver, and Dan Dimiduk to give us these answers. I
personally am going to start putting some charcoal in my (meager) background
garden - just to see why Terra Petra (or charcoal?) works. (There seems to
be no doubt that it does work.)

7. From my limited reading so far, I think that this July meeting was
mainly attended by anthropologists, archaeologists, and soil scientists.
But there may have been some people present thinking sequestration or even
charcoal making - (I intend to ask those there). The idea should certainly
have come up if any Terra Preta Conference attendee had ever been involved
with GW or stoves - as we are talking huge increases in soil productivity
and apparently a long life for the charcoal when placed in the soil. Five
hundred years of dormancy and these terra petra soils are still fantastic
(is the way I interpret the news story).

8. The hydrogen side of this is that some on our list (especially Mike
Antal and Tom Milne) have been involved in the conversion of biomass to
hydrogen - and they (do or could) end up with charcoal as a "waste" material
I believe. There are plenty of others on this list (not me) who know how to
produce hydrogen from biomass - and so I hope they will chime in on how hard
or easy it is to produce mainly H2 and C (with maybe some left over CO2 and
waste heat to do some cooking). I can't think of a better fuel for cooking
than hydrogen (forgetting the issue of cost) - as the only possible (NOX?)
effluent is water. So this alone is a good reason for this list to think
hydrogen once in a while.

9. So I am admitting to have come full circle. I first began developing a
charcoal-making stove in late 1994 and reported first on the "bioenergy"
list in December 1995 (see
http://www.crest.org/discussion/bioenergy/199512/msg00069.html . My highest
value was being then placed on a charcoal-making stove's ability to decrease
the desertification caused by rural charcoal-makers (generated by having
lived in Sudan in 1982 and 1983). Efficiency and emissions reductions were
foreign to me then. In my first message to the Tom-Miles-led-"bioenergy", I
was responding to a Dec. 21 question from Sven Erik-Tiburg (set@mt.luth.se
at that time - haven't heard from Sven in a long time). The stoves list
began a few weeks later because of all this strange talk on charcoal-making
stoves (see http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/199602/msg00000.html for
the first issue of "stoves" - as we were kicked out of "bioenergy" by Tom -
who I ask if there were any earlier stoves discussions on Bioenergy" before
Sven's?). So now almost 7 years later, I am talking about the
advisability of throwing into the ground that which I was striving initially
to obtain. Part of this rationale is my concurrence with the wisdom of what
Tom Reed said in his first message to "stoves" (two later than my first
"stoves" message given above) - that it was better to not burn the charcoal
in a natural draft version of an "inverted down draft" stove. I of course
concur - little useful energy is available after the biomass has been
pyrolyzed - unless the charcoal is moved to a device like a "jiko". What I
have been getting more convinced of over time is that it is the pyrolysis
gases that are most useful for cooking - not the charcoal.

10. Now one last paragraph about this list after seven years. I cannot
think of a better group to approach with this issue. We are unlike most
discussion groups because so few of us think there is any money to be made
in stoves - we are either pyromaniacs or just trying to solve one of the
world's toughest problems. Stoves problems are affecting more people (3
billion?) adversely than any other energy (and health) problem I know of.
We all know that we can contribute to developing better devices - that have
to cost less than $10-$20. We are also very diverse in interest and
background. So with this buttering up - the question for you all is -
should we mention this idea of stoves (and many other pyrolyzers [not
gasifiers]) removing CO2 from the atmosphere out loud? Where does the idea
go wrong? Could the use only of pyrolysis gases for cooking be sufficient
motivation for putting the resulting charcoal back in the ground?
(sufficient because of promised future higher agro-forestry yields) Do we
need to be promoting dollar incentive transfers from the "North" to the
"South" as is being proposed by most sequestration analysts? (and which I am
sure we would need without the apparent advantages of terra petra.) Would
this solve the obstinacy of our President Bush to the Kyoto treaty - if the
South (G-77) was "suddenly" the only group not only reducing their inputs to
GW, but actually taking out our (meaning developed country, for most of us)
own CO2 contributions out for free (or low cost?)? Or will transfer
payments be taken by poor Southern farmers and the charcoal still be burned
anyway? Or can we develop fool-proof methods for ensuring that the charcoal
is indeed sequestered? How does one perform a convincing (to George Bush)
economic argument? How much biomass could be harvested/converted that is
now being digested into unwanted methane (20 times worse than CO2 for GW) by
us (mainly the Southern part of the human race)? How much should those in
the north be willing to pay per consumed Joule to avoid having to cut back
our own wasteful and GW lifestyle? What have I left out?

11. The only people who are doing something outside of what I am suggesting
here are maybe Elsen and Matthew in Nairobi - and A.D and Priya in India -
with their flaring of pyrolysis gases. To them I am saying that perhaps the
charcoal they are preparing is (perhaps - not yet for sure) better (in a
societal sense) put into the ground (maybe with a subidy) to improvev local
growing conditions. To those like Richard Stanley making briquettes out of
ag wastes - I say that is great. (Same for Priya and others with sawdust
stoves.) If this pans out, we just stop the consumption of the briquette
after its pyrolysis phase. To Ray W. in Sri Lanka - this should make your
coppiced tress grow two or there times faster. (I fear that A.D. will tell
me I am wrong - but hope he will first read and analyze the Science article
on which all this is based.)

12. I go into this with this much (but still very sparse) detail so I can
sit back and let others have some sleepless nights. Any sequestration web
sites I should be looking at? (I have found a few that look helpful - and
will pass them on to anyone interested, as this note is already long enough.
I now recognize that the idea of sequestering charcoal is not new - but
maybe using stoves and terra petra is.) Your thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Ron

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sat Sep 28 18:39:09 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: Pressure stove using vegetable oil
Message-ID: <000001c26764$d82fd880$1056c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Ron,
if one used vegetable oil as fuel, one would be depriving humans of a high
calory item of food, and the soap and paint industry of its oils. Therefore,
during my visit to Hohenheim, I mentioned to Mr. Stumpf that he may try
using glycerine instead of oil.
In India, we have at least 20 kinds of vegetable oils, with coconut, peanut,
several species of mustard, sunflower, safflower, sesame, niger, linseed,
cottonseed, castor, soybean and rice bran as oils from the agricultural
sector, and Pongamia pinnata, Jatropha curcas, Madhuka indica, Glycinia
indica, and about 10 other oils from uncultivated species. With a different
oil being available in the market every month, it became very difficult for
the soap and paints industry to produce a standard product. They had to buy
the necessary oil in huge quantities whenever it was available in the market
and store it for use during the rest of the year. In order to produce a
standard product throughout the year, the oil based industries buy just the
fatty acids needed to produce their product. For instance a company would
produce soap by titrating certain fatty acids of the required
characteristics with caustic soda, and have a standard product throughout
the year. The demand for fatty acids is so great, that In India there are
several factories producing just fatty acids from vegetable oils of
whichever species that are available in the market. These factories are
left with huge quantities of glycerine as a byproduct. I am quite sure that
the glycerine is used as a feedstock of the chemical industry, but I
therefore suggested that one may use glycerine as fuel, because the fatty
acid producers are producing it as a byproduct. The cost of raw glycerine
might be comparable to that of kerosene, but I am not sure. In the case of
most products, the cost is determined to a great extent by government
policies.
The thinking of the Government of India is of course quite topsy turvy.
In order to protect the cottage industry, soap made in open pans, which uses
vegetable oil as the raw material without recovering glycerine, is not
taxed, while soap made by the organised sector, which uses a more efficient
and rational process, and which leaves the glycerine behind as a by product,
is taxed.
A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: Elmar Stumpf: stumpf@ats.uni-hohenheim.de
<Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de>
Cc: stoves <stoves@crest.org>
Date: Saturday, September 28, 2002 11:01 PM
Subject: Re -Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Stumpf - #2)

>Stovers (cc Elmar Stumpf):
>
> This is to follow up on the earlier September 18 dialog on oil cookers -
>which began with a mention from A.D. Karve.
>
> I just realized that this message four days ago from Elmar had only come
to
>myself. Elmar - my apologies for the delay.
>
> I have added brief notes on Q3, Q5a, Q5b and Q9
>
> Elmar has asked for our help on Q7.
>
>Elmar:
>
> Thanks. This is one of the most complete inputs we have ever had on
>"stoves". The big surprise to me is the conclusion that you can cook a
meal
>with oils at half the price of urban-purchased fuel wood on open fires
>(Response to Q6). This says that improved wood stoves have to do at least
>this well (efficiency doubling) also. I look forward to hearing of the
>other work that is on-going; please consider this a request to let us know
>more as your results come in.
>
>Ron
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Elmar Stumpf: stumpf@ats.uni-hohenheim.de
>[mailto:Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 2:21 AM
>To: Ron Larson
>Subject: Re: FW: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Stumpf)
>
>
><color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>Dear Ron, dear all,
>
>
>thank you very much for your interest in our stove. I was - again - out of
>office
>some days, therefore I couldn't get back to you earlier.
>
>
>Now - let me answer your questions:
>
>
>1.) Costs
>
>We did not yet do a detailed costs analysis of the actual stove costs -
>nevertheless, we put a lot of emphasis of designing a stove which is
>affordable to the people.
>
>
>We need a tank including an air pump with a pot support just like the
>kerosene stoves (we can also used those parts from existing kerosene
>stoves, which answers your question number 3.). Moreover, we need the
>plant oil burner, which functions like the kerosene stoves, but is
>completely
>re-designed. Maybe, this burner might be slightly more expensive than the
>kerosene burners, however, producing the stove in a tropical or subtropical
>country we expect the production costs within the same range as the costs
>for producing a kerosene pressure stove. Those ones - as you know - are
>sold in India for example for around 12 US-$ (if I remember the personal
>comment of Dr. Karve right). We bought some kerosene pressure stoves in
>the Philippines for 10 - 12 US-$. So - we are talking of a retail price
(for
>sure)
>of less than 20 $ for a basic stove modell if it is produced in mass
>production.
>
>
>2.) principal things that changes the stove design
>
>Well - this is quite a challenge to give you a short description of 5 years
>basic
>research studies. Our burner is - as written before - completely new. The
>basic problem is the temperature of the vaporizer which has to be
sufficient
>for a complete vaporization as well as combustion of the plant oil in the
>burner. This required a new design of the vaporizer which has to maintain
>this temperature not only at high but also at low power outputs of the
>burner
>while high power outputs leads to high flame temperatures and low power
>outputs to lower temperatures within the burner.
>
>
>3.) see above [RWL insert - this was on doing c conversion oneself]
>
>
>4.) Gravity feed mechanism
>
>Our cooking stoves runs with a pressure of more than 2.5 bars. Therefore
>using gravity does not seem to be a good alternative.
>
>
>5.) Pollution emissions and efficiency.
>
>Yes, we already did emission and efficiency testing. Starting with the
>
>
>Efficiency: we did the testing according to the Water Boiling Test and got
>an
>efficiency range between 40 - 45 % (depending on the power output);
>nevertheless this is still subject to further optimization and some 50 of
52
>%
>seem to be quite feasible (it would be great if I could get any information
>of
>anyone who knows about enhancing efficiencies of liquid fuel cooking
>stoves).
>
>[RWL insert - I believe the ideas of Dr. Karve (mentioned by Sam Baldwin
>as the first time I saw it) of putting a "convection-enhancing" cylindrical
>ring around the cookpot will add a good bit of efficiency.]
>
>
>Emissions: regarding CO-emissions we stay within the range of gas cooking
>stoves for Europe (DIN EN 3O) which allow no more than 1000 mg/m^3 in
>the exhaust gas with 0 % oxygene. We did this testing for one open fire and
>got a value of more than 20000 mg/^m3. The Hydrocarbon emissions are
>likewise some 200 - 400 times lower than the emissions of open fires. The
>NOx and SO2 emissions are negligible. Comparing our stove to the existing
>kerosene stoves: our stove emissions are within the same range or
>somewhat lower than the kerosene pressure stove emissions (depending on
>the stove, of course) and very much lower than the kerosene wick stove
>emissions.
>
>[RWL insert: Could you expand on you meaning of "0% oxygen(e)"? With some
>nice recent messages on testing, I think we all would like to know more
>details (or a reference) on the details of your measurement set up.]
>
>6.) Costs of typical meal
>
>We did not yet do this analysis. For the Philippines, we did some
>preliminary
>work on the cost analysis for utilizing crude coconut oil as cooking fuel.
>It
>turned out that the running costs (taking the energy in the cooking pot as
>the
>basis for comparison) for coconut oil is within the same range as the
>(slightly
>subsidized) kerosene (while the price of kerosene will rise in the future
>for
>sure), lower than gas or charcoal and about half of the price of fuel wood
>(bought at the market) on open fires. Still more detailed costs analysis
>have
>to be made. However, if we utilize used oil (from McDonalds, ....) in our
>stove, the running costs will be even lower.
>
>
>7.) Costs for seed oils in different locations
>
>I would appreciate more information from the stove list members to get more
>information about this issue.
>
>
>8.) Gel alcohols as stove approach
>
>We think, utilizing plant oils as cooking fuel might have the potential to
>play
>an important role in different parts of the world within the nearest
future.
>However, the future cooking energy will be covered with a mix of different
>energy </color>forms <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>including energy
>saving wood stoves, charcoal stoves, plant oil
>stove and so on. The alcohol gel fuel may also play a role in this list.
>
>
>9.) Economics etc.
>
>[Larson insert of full question: How does the economics of other attributes
>of the native species fit in >(use for soil preservation, nitrogenation,
>firewood benefits, left over >economic value of the seed cake, etc)?
>
>
></color>Well - this is really a broad area: utilizing plant oils as cooking
>fueld does
>have numerous ecological as well as economical and social advantages. Let
>me get a short list for you
>
>
>socio-economic benefits (among others)
>
>
>a) local production of plant oil as fuel provides income opportunities for
>local
>population
>
>
>b) sustainable energy system due to local production of the fuel
>
>
>c) press-cake as a by-product of the oil pressing process can be sold as
>animal food or fertilizer
>
>
>d) plant oils substitute fossil fuels such as petroleum - import and
>subsidization of those fossil fuels burdens ofteh the national budget of
>some
>countries
>
>
>e) plant oils are bio-degradable and handling is simple and free of danger
>
>
>f) utilization of plant oils as fuel prevents users from severe operating
>risks
>related to the easy inflammation of kerosene
>
>
>g) the plant oil stove runs not only on plant oils, but also on plant oil
>esters,
>kerosene, diesel fuel, and gasoline if necessary
>
>
>h) local fabrication and maintenance of the plant oil cooker and its
>equipment
>provides employment opportunities
>
>
><flushboth>ecological advantages (among others):</flushboth>
>
>
>i) using plant oils instead of wood as fuel reduces tree felling which has
>negative ecological consequences including soil erosion and desertification
>
>
>j) many oil-bearing plants grow on marginal land - utilization of their
oils
>as
>fuel provide economic incentives to enhance their cultivation on unused
>tracts and prevent further erosion
>
>
>k) plant oils burn CO2-neutral
>
>
>
>10.) Test results
>
>We are right now running a more detailed test in Guatemala - unfortunately,
>the test results are not yet available.
>
>
>11.) Solar cookers
>
>Well - I think, the big advantage of solar cookers it the low running costs
>of
>the energy - nevertheless, their utilization is connected with some
>problems,
>especially regarding cooking in the morning, in the evening, during rainy
>season and so on.
>
>
>This for today - I am looking forward to any comments, information,
>questions etc.
>
>
>Take care,
>
>Elmar
>
>
>Ron - I am already a stove list member for some years now and it has been
>very interesting following the discussions!
>
>
>
><color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>Datum: Wed, 18 Sep 2002
>12:38:14 -0600
>
>Von: "Ron Larson" <<ronallarson@qwest.net>
>
>An: stoves@crest.org
>
>Durchschläge an: stumpf@ats.uni-hohenheim.de,
>Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de
>
>Betreff: FW: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Stumpf)
>
>
><color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>>Stovers - the following just in from
>Elmar Stumpf on his stove for oils.
>
>>
>
>>Elmar - Thank you for this additional information you have supplied
below.
>
> <snip a lot of earlier material>
>
>
><nofill>
>von:
>Dipl.-Ing. Elmar Stumpf, M.Sc./Univ. of Wisc.-Madison
>Institute for Agricultural Engineering in the Tropics and Subtropics
>Hohenheim University (495)
>Garbenstr. 9, 70599 Stuttgart, Germany
>Tel.: +49 (0)711 - 459 - 2840
>Fax: +49 (0)711 - 459 - 3298
>e-mail: stumpf@ats.uni-hohenheim.de
>
>
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
>List-Help: <mailto:stoves-help@crest.org>
>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:stoves-unsubscribe@crest.org>
>List-Subscribe: <mailto:stoves-subscribe@crest.org>
>>
>For information about CHAMBERS STOVES
>>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Chambers/Chambers.ht
m
>
>

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sun Sep 29 00:16:24 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: Request for Comment on a Charcoal (Terra petra) Use Question
Message-ID: <000001c26793$f2567140$cb9ec7cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Ron,
I remember having myself suggested the idea sometime ago of making charcoal
by using a charcoal making stove and dumping it back into mine shafts of old
exhausted mines. Terra petra was news to me, but there are references in
literature that show that soil fertility is increased by charcoal. Since we
have geared ourselves up to making charcoal, on a large scale, from
sugarcane trash, it would not be difficult for me to conduct a few
experiments to actually compare crops grown in soil with and without added
char. Very interesting work was done by some agricultural scientists in
India. Rice is first planted on nursery beds and after the seedlings have
grown for about a month on the nursery beds, they are transplanted into the
field. These scientists got hold of a Vietnamese stove called Lo-trau, which
used rice husk as fuel. When the ash from this stove was spread on rice
seedling beds, the resulting seedlings not only grew better, but they
resisted many diseases and pests. The concerned scientists attributed the
better performance of the rice seedlings to the extra silica that they
received from the ash. There is also a lot of anecdotal evidence from
people living in the mountains west of Pune. Here, the deforested slopes of
the mountains support growth of a grass species that grows breast high.
Because its seeds are extremely spiny, one can't even walk in this region
after the rainy season, because seeds penetrate your clothes and make your
life miserable by working their way through to your skin. Even cattle does
not eat this grass after it has set seed. We have been making propaganda to
convert this grass into char by using our kilns. The residents of this
region claim that new grass grew better if the old dry clumps were burned
in a bush fire, rather than if the old grass was allowed to rot in situ.
A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Larson <ronallarson@qwest.net>
To: stoves <stoves@crest.org>
Cc: morey_wolfson@nrel.gov <morey_wolfson@nrel.gov>; Tom Reed
<tombreed@attbi.com>; Tom Milne <tom_milne@nrel.gov>; Ralph Overend
<ralph_overend@nrel.gov>
Date: Sunday, September 29, 2002 2:07 AM
Subject: Request for Comment on a Charcoal (Terra petra) Use Question

>
>Stovers (apologies in advance for a too-long message):
>
> 1. As most of you know, I am quite morbidly fixated on charcoal as a part
>of the stoves options. But I do other things; as a member of its Board of
>Directors, I am helping the American Solar Energy Society (ASES) in
>fighting our US Department of Energy on its apparent decision to move
>emphasis on hydrogen away from renewables towards coal and nuclear
>production approaches. In the mention this past week by list-member Tom
Reed
>of list-member Tom Milne's April submission to us on the relationship
>between Hydrogen and Biomass (his report for the IEA) - I reread that Milne
>report and had the following (inspiration, dumb idea, wild thought,...?).
>The idea is that maybe there is a relationship also with the world of
global
>warming (GW) and climate change. I hadn't earlier seen much connection to
>"stoves", except through our (very important!) work to improve efficiency
>and reduce emissions. Our best stoves work on these GW topics has come
from
>people like Kirk Smith, Dan Kammen, Tami Bond,.....
>
> 2. So this most recent idea is that maybe we should be thinking of stoves
>as a way to assist even more on GW (and maybe hydrogen - see below) through
>not just having a GW-neutral stove - but one that actually pumps CO2 out of
>the atmosphere.
>
> 3. The only two (Stovers - is this true?) ways I know to do this are
> a): to put the CO2 back deep into the ground or oceans as is being studied
>by the coal and natural gas folks. I see no hope for this (at least at the
>level of stoves) - but ask if anyone on our list sees this (CO2, not C,
>removal) as a realistic possibility.
> b): sequester the charcoal itself (from stoves or any other biomass
>operation) - do not consume it at or near the place of charcoal
manufacture.
>This is virtually impossible for the coal and natural gas people to argue
>for at the stoves level, I believe - so we have this field to ourselves.
>[added note for John Davies and others working on coal-fired cooking and
>heating stoves - this following idea might also apply to you - after you
>obtain coke. I can conceive of that being considered sequestration as
>well.)
>
> 4. Now one obvious choice for the charcoal to stay out of circulation is
>as a carbon filament - useful for its nice (except for cost) properties
>(weight, strength, etc). My friend Morey Wolfson today supplied me with
>this reference for those who might want to pursue this nice option further:
>http://www.byu.edu/news/releases/archive02/May/pyramatrix.htm
>
> 5. The other option only became obsessive to me when I spoke on Thursday
>with list member Ralph Overend (I think the most knowledgeable biomass
>person I have ever met). Ralph pointed me to the August 9 Issue of Science
>magazine (pp 920-923)- which is on the subject of "terra petra". A little
>time on "google" got me this web site for one of two Thomas Mann news
>stories on this topic:
>http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmpr/uvmclips/Augustclips/SciencePetersonDirt.html
>It is also available for a fee from the Science Magazine website - and
>probably with the photos. As this is maybe the most popular science
>magazine - you may find it at your local library, which was my first
>approach.
>
> 6. To whet your appetite, let me say that I found this article to be very
>fascinating on many other levels than any so far mentioned by me. To not
>keep you in suspense, the article reports that there are big parts (10%?)
of
>Brazil with a highly productive soil - much different from the typical soil
>that we hear is in such danger from the felling of the Amazonian forests.
>The difference is that terra petra is a man-made soil - with the main
>ingredient (I think and I think they think) being charcoal. It was
man-made
>starting maybe 1500 years ago with 1/2 to 2 meter depth. Terra petra's
>significance was only discovered in the past decade or two. This August
>"Science" article reports on the first-ever conference in July on the Terra
>petra (dark earth in Portuguese) topic. The big questions raised are: Why
>does it work?, How was the charcoal produced? Why are there so many pot
>shards in the soil along with the charcoal? Is there some other magic
>ingredient in this soil besides the charcoal? Was the reason for man-made
>soil (with same-site agricultural longevity measured in millennia) that it
>was too difficult to practice slash-and-burn agriculture when your best
tool
>for cutting big trees was a stone axe? I expect our botanists on this list
>like A.D Karve, Harmon Seaver, and Dan Dimiduk to give us these answers. I
>personally am going to start putting some charcoal in my (meager)
background
>garden - just to see why Terra Petra (or charcoal?) works. (There seems to
>be no doubt that it does work.)
>
> 7. From my limited reading so far, I think that this July meeting was
>mainly attended by anthropologists, archaeologists, and soil scientists.
>But there may have been some people present thinking sequestration or even
>charcoal making - (I intend to ask those there). The idea should certainly
>have come up if any Terra Preta Conference attendee had ever been involved
>with GW or stoves - as we are talking huge increases in soil productivity
>and apparently a long life for the charcoal when placed in the soil. Five
>hundred years of dormancy and these terra petra soils are still fantastic
>(is the way I interpret the news story).
>
> 8. The hydrogen side of this is that some on our list (especially Mike
>Antal and Tom Milne) have been involved in the conversion of biomass to
>hydrogen - and they (do or could) end up with charcoal as a "waste"
material
>I believe. There are plenty of others on this list (not me) who know how
to
>produce hydrogen from biomass - and so I hope they will chime in on how
hard
>or easy it is to produce mainly H2 and C (with maybe some left over CO2 and
>waste heat to do some cooking). I can't think of a better fuel for cooking
>than hydrogen (forgetting the issue of cost) - as the only possible (NOX?)
>effluent is water. So this alone is a good reason for this list to think
>hydrogen once in a while.
>
> 9. So I am admitting to have come full circle. I first began developing
a
>charcoal-making stove in late 1994 and reported first on the "bioenergy"
>list in December 1995 (see
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/bioenergy/199512/msg00069.html . My
highest
>value was being then placed on a charcoal-making stove's ability to
decrease
>the desertification caused by rural charcoal-makers (generated by having
>lived in Sudan in 1982 and 1983). Efficiency and emissions reductions were
>foreign to me then. In my first message to the Tom-Miles-led-"bioenergy",
I
>was responding to a Dec. 21 question from Sven Erik-Tiburg (set@mt.luth.se
>at that time - haven't heard from Sven in a long time). The stoves list
>began a few weeks later because of all this strange talk on charcoal-making
>stoves (see http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/199602/msg00000.html for
>the first issue of "stoves" - as we were kicked out of "bioenergy" by Tom -
>who I ask if there were any earlier stoves discussions on Bioenergy" before
>Sven's?). So now almost 7 years later, I am talking about the
>advisability of throwing into the ground that which I was striving
initially
>to obtain. Part of this rationale is my concurrence with the wisdom of
what
>Tom Reed said in his first message to "stoves" (two later than my first
>"stoves" message given above) - that it was better to not burn the charcoal
>in a natural draft version of an "inverted down draft" stove. I of course
>concur - little useful energy is available after the biomass has been
>pyrolyzed - unless the charcoal is moved to a device like a "jiko". What I
>have been getting more convinced of over time is that it is the pyrolysis
>gases that are most useful for cooking - not the charcoal.
>
> 10. Now one last paragraph about this list after seven years. I cannot
>think of a better group to approach with this issue. We are unlike most
>discussion groups because so few of us think there is any money to be made
>in stoves - we are either pyromaniacs or just trying to solve one of the
>world's toughest problems. Stoves problems are affecting more people (3
>billion?) adversely than any other energy (and health) problem I know of.
>We all know that we can contribute to developing better devices - that have
>to cost less than $10-$20. We are also very diverse in interest and
>background. So with this buttering up - the question for you all is -
>should we mention this idea of stoves (and many other pyrolyzers [not
>gasifiers]) removing CO2 from the atmosphere out loud? Where does the idea
>go wrong? Could the use only of pyrolysis gases for cooking be sufficient
>motivation for putting the resulting charcoal back in the ground?
>(sufficient because of promised future higher agro-forestry yields) Do we
>need to be promoting dollar incentive transfers from the "North" to the
>"South" as is being proposed by most sequestration analysts? (and which I
am
>sure we would need without the apparent advantages of terra petra.) Would
>this solve the obstinacy of our President Bush to the Kyoto treaty - if the
>South (G-77) was "suddenly" the only group not only reducing their inputs
to
>GW, but actually taking out our (meaning developed country, for most of us)
>own CO2 contributions out for free (or low cost?)? Or will transfer
>payments be taken by poor Southern farmers and the charcoal still be burned
>anyway? Or can we develop fool-proof methods for ensuring that the
charcoal
>is indeed sequestered? How does one perform a convincing (to George Bush)
>economic argument? How much biomass could be harvested/converted that is
>now being digested into unwanted methane (20 times worse than CO2 for GW)
by
>us (mainly the Southern part of the human race)? How much should those in
>the north be willing to pay per consumed Joule to avoid having to cut back
>our own wasteful and GW lifestyle? What have I left out?
>
> 11. The only people who are doing something outside of what I am
suggesting
>here are maybe Elsen and Matthew in Nairobi - and A.D and Priya in India -
>with their flaring of pyrolysis gases. To them I am saying that perhaps
the
>charcoal they are preparing is (perhaps - not yet for sure) better (in a
>societal sense) put into the ground (maybe with a subidy) to improvev local
>growing conditions. To those like Richard Stanley making briquettes out of
>ag wastes - I say that is great. (Same for Priya and others with sawdust
>stoves.) If this pans out, we just stop the consumption of the briquette
>after its pyrolysis phase. To Ray W. in Sri Lanka - this should make your
>coppiced tress grow two or there times faster. (I fear that A.D. will tell
>me I am wrong - but hope he will first read and analyze the Science article
>on which all this is based.)
>
>
> 12. I go into this with this much (but still very sparse) detail so I can
>sit back and let others have some sleepless nights. Any sequestration web
>sites I should be looking at? (I have found a few that look helpful - and
>will pass them on to anyone interested, as this note is already long
enough.
>I now recognize that the idea of sequestering charcoal is not new - but
>maybe using stoves and terra petra is.) Your thoughts? Thanks in advance.
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>-
>Stoves List Archives and Website:
>http://www.crest.org/discussion/stoves/200209/
>http://crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>Stoves List Moderators:
>Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
>Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
>Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
>http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
>List-Post: <mailto:stoves@crest.org>
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From Harry.Parker at coe.ttu.edu Sun Sep 29 02:37:44 2002
From: Harry.Parker at coe.ttu.edu (Harry W. Parker)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: Glycerine as stove fuel Re: Pressure stove using vegetable oil
In-Reply-To: <000001c26764$d82fd880$1056c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <001401c267a4$043561e0$b6e50144@dl.cox.net>

Hello Mr. Karve and all,

Glycerin has a market value of 6 to 10 times that of propane. Why not sell
the glycerin and buy propane. To me that is a logical action, but logistics
and politics may make that action difficult.

Selling natural glycerin is environmentally desirable since it will displace
synthetic glycerin made from petrochemicals.

Harry W. Parker, Ph.D., P.E.
Professor of Chemical Engineering
& Consulting Engineer
Texas Tech University
Lubbock, TX 79409-3121
806.742.1759 fax 742.3552

From jmdavies at xsinet.co.za Sun Sep 29 10:31:21 2002
From: jmdavies at xsinet.co.za (john)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: Coal Stoves needed 3
Message-ID: <008d01c267e5$f027b120$ae6827c4@default>

Greetings,

Following up on previous posts.

The electricity story in the townships has a sting in the tail. I do not
have exact details available, but the residents ( including the cities ) all
receive the first 40 kWh free of charge, any consumption above this is
naturally loaded to pay for this, Our electricity is cheap by international
standards, but the people try and keep within the free quota. When I
mentioned an electric fan to a small group of above average, educated
people, I received a look of horror. I think that the majority have a long
way to go before accepting such a concept.

Crispin quite estimated that a stove height of 60 cm might be too little for
coal burning. A 15 cm diameter coal bed needed about another 20 cm added to
achieve gassification of the residual carbon after the initial flaming of
the volatiles. While the smaller stove ran well on 10 m coal particles the
larger one did not breathe well with this size. It required coal of about 15
mm size. The results with the larger size are very promising. I am told
that a commercially produced stove pipe is available in 1 meter lengths of
this diameter.
This will solve the problem of acquiring 15 cm dia tin cans which are not
very common here.

Regards,
John Davies.

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Sun Sep 29 12:19:30 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: Pressure stove using vegetable oil
In-Reply-To: <000001c26764$d82fd880$1056c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <20020929201628.GB21453@cybershamanix.com>

On Sun, Sep 29, 2002 at 01:00:08AM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> Dear Ron,
> if one used vegetable oil as fuel, one would be depriving humans of a high
> calory item of food, and the soap and paint industry of its oils.

That depends upon where you are, the making of biodiesel out of vegetable
oil is definitely becoming a hot commercial venture in Europe, Canada, and the
US. Or just running diesels on straight vegetable oil, with some slight
modifications of the vehicle. There is, at present, a tremendous amount of waste
vegetable oil (WVO) from deep frying that goes into landfills and should be
instead used for fuel. I just recently bought a diesel van with the express
purpose of running it on biodiesel and SVO (straight vegetable oil) and intend
to never buy another gasoline fueled vehicle.
What do people in India do with the WVO? Also there are vegetable oils which
do not make good food.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From Carefreeland at aol.com Sun Sep 29 18:43:35 2002
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland@aol.com)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: Comment on a Charcoal (Terra petra) Use Question
Message-ID: <1ab.958316d.2ac9139b@aol.com>

> Comments

> Hi Ron and Stovers,
First, I'd like to say that I am on a borrowed computer, as I am having serious computer problems. I am also very busy with landscaping. If I drop out for a while, pardon me, "I'll be back".
Charcoal is an excellent soil amendment. Many soil, and soil-less mixes have it as an ingrediant. The reasons are similar, but not completely the same as for humus and compost. The chemical ingrediant-carbon has a buffering effect of capturing certain ions and re-releasing them as plants require. The other property it has, is that of locking up toxins or elements in excess. Activated charcoal is perscribed in many pesticide clean up programs.
Charcoal can absorb and release water and air in a balanced way as does a good soil or humus. This is due to the porosity and capilary action effects. Charcoal works well in conjunction with clay particals and limestone granuals. The clay holds the opposite charged ions and the lime amoung other things provides calcium. Maybe I missed a few good reasons?
I can suggest that the clay shards were an excellent complement to the char. Undoubtably and amazingly, the ancient peoples knew this. The question is how did they know, with so little knowledge of chemistry. Chock another one up to knowing the results of chemistry over knowing the chemistry itself.
I would comment in more detail, but without my soil chemistry books handy I could mislead someone with a minor detail. I am sure that others on this list specializing in research can elaborate on these well known biochemical processes.
My guess is that bury pits were found to be the best places to grow things. Through trial and error, the best pit makeup was determined, and then reproduced on a large scale.
Ron, you can't go wrong putting your charcoal in the garden, just mix it in well. Like manure and money, it works best when you spread it around. If put down in the fall, any chemically "hot" tars with acids or alkalines would break down by spring.
Sorry so short of a response to a tremendous discovery. I would just be happy to store char in old stable coal mines for future emergency use. I hold that the more we burn char instead of coal, the less net carbon from the ground into the air. Unless improving soil or such things, just replacing as much coal use as possible is the most direct way to eliminate the need to sequester carbon. No need to sequester what is never dug, and less damage to the environment in the first place.
I'll catch all of you friends in a future time, on a fixed or possibly upgraded computer. Until then, enjoy the quiet without me. Maybe it's a good time for another lurker to step into my place. I yield the floor to the quiet individual in the back of the room, bursting with great ideas, but a little nervous in public. Everyone give that guy a warm welcome,
SEE YU LATER,
Dan Dimiduk

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Sep 29 18:55:57 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: FW: Richard Stanley related to Terra petra
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFIMEBGCCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Stovers: an interesting response re the
charcoaling and Terra Petra from Richard Stanley, who said:

 <snip>
Stanley:
You have just posted this heavy weight coverage of pyrolosis
versus charcoal making etc, with rather convincing arguements for the
former. You proceeded to nicely compliment me on the use of biomass briquettes
as a pyrolsis primarily heat source.
Interestingly enough, I was about to post up an idea or more an
observation, about how many of those whom we have trained in briqueting,
seem to learn quite quickly, how to load their simple jikos so that
it automatically encourages increased secondary air and
reduced primary air flow as pyrolsis is completed and gassification potentially
begins! They simply stuff a traditional jiko to capacity (in the
case of briquettes, using whole and broken off pieces, or in the case of
wood fuel, various lengths of sticks ) . During the flare up stage, the mass of
course draws "primarily' upon bottom fed "primary" air. As the ashes build up
and the mass of the fuel subsides, the ashes clog off primary air inlets as the
secondary air holes (positioned about midway up the sides of the
stove) become exposed with the subsiding fuel mass, for gassification to
proceed quite naturally , This simple modification is not new nor is it
reported widely it seems. Nor could those who use this technique describe
gassification or pyrolsis but they well recognise it and utilise the principles
in their daily cooking. Admittedly, however, few have benefit of the stoves
group's knowledge of insulation and clean burning and exit temperature control,
and carbon sequestering etc. It does tend to make me wonder about the need
for observation with/ inclusion of those who are there actually living
with the problem. 
[Ron
Larson]: re the first part of this paragraph, I am guessing that they
don't worry about top-lighting and that there is not enough draft to get
pyrolysis prior to mixing with secondary air and then combustion of the
pyrolysis gases. But after hearing about the results of Crispin's
firings (bottom lighting - but still getting pyrolysis first) I am not sure what
is going on in either yours or his work. it will be great when we can
finally get some detailed test results.
 With you back in Kampala, I hope you will send us
continued observations on what is going on in the real world - like that
below.
As to your comments about charcoal use, I abhor the notion of charcoal
making, whether as done in Niarobi or elsewhere, as most of the heat is lost to
the atmosphere before anything useful can come of it. I would add that there is
tremendous waste associated with its distribution at least as done by the masses of national users.
[Ron
Larson] We mostly agree on this list about the terrible waste
in rural making of charcoal - but also there is (as I know you know) usually in
rural areas much worse contribution to GW than if the pyrolysis
gases were flared rather than vented. Fortunately I believe that all
charcoal makers on this list do flaring,
[Ron Larson] But I
am not sure what you mean by waste in the distribution process. Is this
the fines that accumulate? I wonder how we could encourage getting those
into the ground and the ground where the fines are stored returned back to
productive use?
In Kampala for example, with its 1 million
plus population, and its more or less typical energy consumption pattern for an
East and Central African city, some 30,000 tons of charcoal dust fines (wasted
charocal accumilated around most local charcoal seller's sites) are
generated each year. This might be a source of the "tierra preta" in the Amazon
too but for us it potentially provides (@ a consumption rate of about 120 g per
person per day in the form of two briquettes of 40% charcoal fines composition
each) a cooking and basic hot water sanitation supply in the briquetted
form for just about that same 1 million population ! A wet
process charcoal briquette is a higly sought-after commodity. It is far easier
to store, cleaner to use than charcoal or wood, and has a far greater energy
output that normal agroresidue blends, particularly and not suprisingly,
in the later 'post pyrolsis' stages of the burn. I wonder how this factors into global warming ?
 <snip>
(RWL): I gather that the anthropologists and
archaeologists have not yet determined the production means for the charcoal in
the terra petra. As to your use of charcoal fines and GW - I
think its productive use is positive when you either avoid cutting trees or
prevent the anaerobic digestion (and unwanted production of methane) of ag
waste. The key question is whether the fines would possibly do better in
improving someone's garden soil (with a subsequent greater annual
removal of CO2 from the atmosphere from that particular plot of land. With
the fines just sitting on the ground, they are not being productive in any
way). I don't know the overall answer yet - but still think it is an
interesting question - and I am pretty sure that it is best to get the fines
away from where they are.
Ron

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Sep 29 19:36:32 2002
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: Comment on a Charcoal (Terra petra) Use Question
In-Reply-To: <1ab.958316d.2ac9139b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NGBBKDEHILILFNJPHEFICEBICCAA.ronallarson@qwest.net>

Dan
(cc stovers)

1. Thanks for your added comment on the reasons
for charcoal's efficacy. I gathered some of this from the papers I could
get to from the Terra Petra conference. As time goes on, I'll try to
expand this. I am wondering if there is an optimum size charcoal particle
from your perspective - and whether the ancient Amazonians had also worked this
out. I still don't know the charcoal densities in kg per meter
squared or meter cubed in their soils. Or how it was deposited so
deeply.
 In commercial US potting soils, what
densities of charcoal are used?

2. Then about the ceramics you said
in part:

[ " I can suggest that the clay
shards were an excellent complement to the char. Undoubtably and amazingly,
the ancient peoples knew this. The question is how did they know, with so
little knowledge of chemistry. Chock another one up to knowing the results of
chemistry over knowing the chemistry itself.

 [Ron Larson] Speaking as the husband of a potter, I can say
that the low-fired clay such as they probably used is much more
porous than the typical pottery we buy in the US. It will be interesting
to hear more about the fired clay density they have found in practice.
But I would still like to hear more on why you think the pot shards have a
chemical value. Unless they are very low fired - they will have very
little solubility (ie - archaeologists find pot shards that are thousands of
years old - but don't look it.) (I think - maybe under a microscope
there is significant erosion.) The key question is - what is the lowest
cost way to get whatever else is needed into the ground.


Glad to hear the work is going well. Thanks for
your report.

Ron

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Sep 30 08:38:00 2002
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (A.D. Karve)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
Message-ID: <000201c268a3$0829a4a0$0b50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>

Dear Mr. Seaver,
we never had any waste vegetable oil in India. When we deep fry something
and a little bit of it is left over, it is poured out carefully and used
again. I have heard about the epoxides and other nasty things that such an
oil contains, but we reuse it in any case. Now that McDonalds have come into
India, we may start getting waste vegetable oil, but it would most probably
be used by other eateries in the poorer sections of the town. Because India
is chronically short of vegetable oil, the organised soap industry is not
allowed to use edible oils. The non-edible oils, except for castor oil and
Jatropha oil, have generally a very dark colour, and generally also bad
smell. Since they cannot be used as such for soap making, nonedible oils
are broken up into their component fatty acids, which are distilled to
purify them. It is these fatty acids that the soap industry uses. As far as
fuel for internal combustion engines is concerned, people in India have
already started using biogas and producer gas for stationary engines. In not
too distant a future, biologically produced methane may become available as
compressed gas to be used as automotive fuel. The beauty of methane is that
it can be produced from any organic waste and the procedure is so simple
that even an illiterate villager can produce methane in his backyard.
A.D.Karve
-----Original Message-----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>;
Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de
<Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de>
Date: Monday, September 30, 2002 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: Pressure stove using vegetable oil

>On Sun, Sep 29, 2002 at 01:00:08AM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
>> Dear Ron,
>> if one used vegetable oil as fuel, one would be depriving humans of a
high
>> calory item of food, and the soap and paint industry of its oils.
>
> That depends upon where you are, the making of biodiesel out of
vegetable
>oil is definitely becoming a hot commercial venture in Europe, Canada, and
the
>US. Or just running diesels on straight vegetable oil, with some slight
>modifications of the vehicle. There is, at present, a tremendous amount of
waste
>vegetable oil (WVO) from deep frying that goes into landfills and should be
>instead used for fuel. I just recently bought a diesel van with the express
>purpose of running it on biodiesel and SVO (straight vegetable oil) and
intend
>to never buy another gasoline fueled vehicle.
> What do people in India do with the WVO? Also there are vegetable oils
which
>do not make good food.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>

From willing at mb.sympatico.ca Mon Sep 30 09:53:50 2002
From: willing at mb.sympatico.ca (Scott Willing)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
In-Reply-To: <3D943291.32209.A9E8A89@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D9835FF.7022.DF2C5B6@localhost>

Stovers,

Thanks most sincerely for your thoughts on catalytic converters and
more.

Still digesting,
-=s

From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Mon Sep 30 11:47:46 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: CO meters (again)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020925001729.00a5ba00@pop3.yucom.be>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDMEBOEFAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

Bruno -

Sorry for the delayed response, as I've been traveling.

I suppose you might lost some heat transfer, but I feel pretty certain that
heat transfer is dominated by flame radiation and convection from the hot
flue gases, neither of which is affected. Haven't quantified the
difference, but it seems a small price to pay for ability to measure mass
consumption of fuel.

- Bryan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruno M. [mailto:brunom1@yucom.be]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 4:44 PM
> To: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: RE: CO meters (again)
>
>

>
> And a small question to Brian, about the "suspending pot"
> Don't you lose a little bit of heat transfer to the pot, if you like
> also to measure the time to heat or boil a certain amount of water?
> I mean : because you lose the heat transfer by <conduction> between the
> (hot) ( metal) support and the pot.
> If your test is only about CO and other flue gas specs it makes no
> difference off corse.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Bruno Meersman

From Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu Mon Sep 30 15:12:38 2002
From: Bryan.Willson at colostate.edu (Bryan Willson)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
In-Reply-To: <00e301c2670a$a827a6e0$9a1e6c0c@default>
Message-ID: <IKEDKFNCEGGOEHHJPHKDKECBEFAA.Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>

I would like to support Dean's comments that "catalytic converters are not
always successful." I don't have any experience with catalysts on stoves or
open fires, but lots of experience on engines - both automotive engines and
large industrial engines. Generally, my comments come from research on
natural gas engines.

Below about 550 degrees F, sulfation can rapidly deactivate the performance
of most oxidation catalysts. This is "quasi-permanent" degradation, but can
often be reduced somewhat by a high temperature cycle. I don't know how
much sulfur is in wood, but even a few ppm can have a dramatic effect. On
the other end, temperatures above about 1300 degrees F can produce sintering
of the catalyst washcoat which causes deactivation. If significant unburned
gases are present (through pyrolysis perhaps?), they will release their
energy on the catalyst, which can dramatically raise temperature. A few
misfires from an engine can melt a catalyst in very short order.

In addition to temperature effects any ash and tar can cause masking. These
materials can also accumulate and then combust, causing thermal problems.
Masking is probably reduced as temperatures increases, but any fire goes
through a wide range of temperature regimes in its firing cycle.

- Bryan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dean Still [mailto:dstill@epud.net]
> Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 10:17 AM
> To: willing@mb.sympatico.ca; stoves@crest.org
> Subject: Re: OT(?) Catalytic converters re: N.A. heating stoves
>
>
> Dear Scott,
>
> In my own experience I have not found that catalytic converters are always
> successful. I was told by the manufacturer that the cat. needs to
> be 500F or
> above but not touched by flame which destroys the unit. Perhaps these
> conditions are not always met? I don't know. I just know that adding a cat
> to a cooking stove did not visibly reduce smoke.
>

>
> Dean-

From raywije at eureka.lk Mon Sep 30 20:46:25 2002
From: raywije at eureka.lk (Ray)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <000201c268a3$0829a4a0$0b50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <MABBKKNLMCKBBJKBLMGNMEEMCNAA.raywije@eureka.lk>

I greatly appreciated your response, Dr Karve, to the question how we
'dispose' of waste vegetable oil... That question was sadly a very 'affluent
nation' attitude and the cause of much of the pollution we ALL suffer, as we
(in other parts of the under-developed world) also tend to emulate such
practises (waste disposal rather than waste-conversion) believing that to be
'modern'.

I was also very 'with' your observations regarding the future of methane..
natural-gas etc. It has hitherto been a problem to transport over long
distances requiring compression (CNG) and even freezing (LNG)...Not for
long, 'though! I've been attending a conference in Britain on airship
technology (I have a 'crush' for flying machines!) where SHELL described its
trials with VAST airships...many times the size of the Hindenberg and even
the Titanic... carrying NG (very much LTA (lighter-than-air) at almost
atmospheric pressure inside and used even for powering the engines. These
require no compression or liquifying and can carry it straight from the well
to the end-user... no port-facilities, no pipes,.. all for a fraction of the
cost even of compressing. NG (mainly CH4) is just one step from the
Hydrogen-energy era and being so much lighter than air... hence this unique
method of transport. Folks may ask "What about the danger of airships such
as Hindenberg catching fire?" ... All airship people are now convinced that
it was the outer covering of the Hindenberg which caught fire (in an
electrical storm)and the H2 was probably the last to combust... and then it
would have 'whoofed' into steam/water ... not the clouds of flame and smoke
which the pictures show of the butyl-fabric catching fire. Please pardon the
deviation away from priorities towards combustion in stoves!

Ray Wijewardene, Colombo, Sri Lanka.

-----Original Message-----
From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 9:31 PM
To: Harmon Seaver
Cc: stoves@crest.org
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel

From hseaver at cybershamanix.com Mon Sep 30 21:24:51 2002
From: hseaver at cybershamanix.com (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 31 21:38:12 2004
Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
In-Reply-To: <000201c268a3$0829a4a0$0b50c5cb@adkarvepn2.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <20021001052132.GB23425@cybershamanix.com>

On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 10:46:53AM +0600, Ray wrote:
> I greatly appreciated your response, Dr Karve, to the question how we
> 'dispose' of waste vegetable oil... That question was sadly a very 'affluent
> nation' attitude

On the contrary, I really don't think my question was in any way an "affluent
nation" attitude. Vegetable oil is reused here as well, but there comes a point
when it definitely is not good for cooking anymore. I'm sure that Dr. Karve is
correct in saying that in India (and I'm sure other countries) the oil from the
better restaurants then goes to poorer ones, or perhaps to individuals, but that
was my question, which he answered.
The point was that many of us are trying to reuse the waste oil much of which
now goes to landfills here in the US, by turning it into fuel. This has a many
benefits -- it keeps it out of the landfills, and doesn't pollute when we drive,
and decreases dependance on fossil fuels. It also helps decrease the need for
the US to attack other nations like Iraq so they can steal their oil.

>and the cause of much of the pollution we ALL suffer, as we
> (in other parts of the under-developed world) also tend to emulate such
> practises (waste disposal rather than waste-conversion) believing that to be
> 'modern'.
>
> I was also very 'with' your observations regarding the future of methane..
> natural-gas etc. It has hitherto been a problem to transport over long
> distances requiring compression (CNG) and even freezing (LNG)...Not for
> long, 'though! I've been attending a conference in Britain on airship
> technology (I have a 'crush' for flying machines!) where SHELL described its
> trials with VAST airships...many times the size of the Hindenberg and even
> the Titanic... carrying NG (very much LTA (lighter-than-air) at almost
> atmospheric pressure inside and used even for powering the engines. These
> require no compression or liquifying and can carry it straight from the well
> to the end-user... no port-facilities, no pipes,.. all for a fraction of the
> cost even of compressing. NG (mainly CH4) is just one step from the
> Hydrogen-energy era and being so much lighter than air... hence this unique
> method of transport.

Yes, producer gas from biomass gasification can be transported the same way.

> Folks may ask "What about the danger of airships such
> as Hindenberg catching fire?" ... All airship people are now convinced that
> it was the outer covering of the Hindenberg which caught fire (in an
> electrical storm)and the H2 was probably the last to combust... and then it
> would have 'whoofed' into steam/water ... not the clouds of flame and smoke
> which the pictures show of the butyl-fabric catching fire. Please pardon the
> deviation away from priorities towards combustion in stoves!
>
> Ray Wijewardene, Colombo, Sri Lanka.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A.D. Karve [mailto:adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in]
> Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 9:31 PM
> To: Harmon Seaver
> Cc: stoves@crest.org
> Subject: vegetable oil as fuel
>
>
> Dear Mr. Seaver,
> we never had any waste vegetable oil in India. When we deep fry something
> and a little bit of it is left over, it is poured out carefully and used
> again. I have heard about the epoxides and other nasty things that such an
> oil contains, but we reuse it in any case. Now that McDonalds have come into
> India, we may start getting waste vegetable oil, but it would most probably
> be used by other eateries in the poorer sections of the town. Because India
> is chronically short of vegetable oil, the organised soap industry is not
> allowed to use edible oils. The non-edible oils, except for castor oil and
> Jatropha oil, have generally a very dark colour, and generally also bad
> smell. Since they cannot be used as such for soap making, nonedible oils
> are broken up into their component fatty acids, which are distilled to
> purify them. It is these fatty acids that the soap industry uses. As far as
> fuel for internal combustion engines is concerned, people in India have
> already started using biogas and producer gas for stationary engines. In not
> too distant a future, biologically produced methane may become available as
> compressed gas to be used as automotive fuel. The beauty of methane is that
> it can be produced from any organic waste and the procedure is so simple
> that even an illiterate villager can produce methane in his backyard.
> A.D.Karve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@cybershamanix.com>
> To: A.D. Karve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Cc: stoves@crest.org <stoves@crest.org>;
> Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de
> <Stumpf@495-simon.ats.uni-hohenheim.de>
> Date: Monday, September 30, 2002 1:45 AM
> Subject: Re: Pressure stove using vegetable oil
>
>
> >On Sun, Sep 29, 2002 at 01:00:08AM +0530, A.D. Karve wrote:
> >> Dear Ron,
> >> if one used vegetable oil as fuel, one would be depriving humans of a
> high
> >> calory item of food, and the soap and paint industry of its oils.
> >
> > That depends upon where you are, the making of biodiesel out of
> vegetable
> >oil is definitely becoming a hot commercial venture in Europe, Canada, and
> the
> >US. Or just running diesels on straight vegetable oil, with some slight
> >modifications of the vehicle. There is, at present, a tremendous amount of
> waste
> >vegetable oil (WVO) from deep frying that goes into landfills and should be
> >instead used for fuel. I just recently bought a diesel van with the express
> >purpose of running it on biodiesel and SVO (straight vegetable oil) and
> intend
> >to never buy another gasoline fueled vehicle.
> > What do people in India do with the WVO? Also there are vegetable oils
> which
> >do not make good food.
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver
> >CyberShamanix
> >http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >
>
>
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>
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> >
> Stoves List Moderators:
> Ron Larson, ronallarson@qwest.net
> Elsen L. Karstad, elk@wananchi.com www.chardust.com
>
> Other Biomass Stoves Events and Information:
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1010424940_7.html Bioenergy
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975339_7.html Gasification
> http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/1011975672_7.html Carbon
>
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--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

September 2002 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive