December 2004 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From aambiental at clix.pt Wed Dec 1 02:56:28 2004
From: aambiental at clix.pt (Antonio Lambe)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:56:28 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Thank you!
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20041201085049.02262f98@pop.clix.pt>

Dear Colleagues,

What a fantastic bunch of people you are! Within 48 hours of posting my
request for a Peruvian stove I have received such a wealth of ideas that
the options are overwhelming. If the car industry possessed such
dedication, intelligence and inventiveness, we'd outperform Kyoto in no
time. The only disappointment is that our NGO will be able to benefit
from only a small part of all that talent and creativity.

Keep up the wonderful work!

Again, my sincere thanks.

Antonio Lambe

AC??O AMBIENTAL para O BARLAVENTO
APARTADO 373 PORTIM?O - 8500 PORTUGAL
Tel/Fax: +351 282 442 345 Correio electr?nico: aambiental at clix.pt

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Wed Dec 1 05:50:11 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:50:11 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [Gasification] Fw: charcoal making equipment and
briquetting equipment
In-Reply-To: <00c401c4d65d$81e55710$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>
References: <00c401c4d65d$81e55710$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>
Message-ID: <qubrq0t9q8klfdqkpejavekul2cp5bs96i@4ax.com>

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:07:52 -0800, Tom Miles wrote:

>From: <rbarjon at tampabay.rr.com>
>Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 8:31 AM
>Subject: charcoal making equipment and briquetting equipment
>
>
>>
>> I would like to request the cost and volume capacity of charcoal making
>> and briquetting machines.

I actually believe that bioconversion would be a good place to discuss
charcoal making, along with other fuels which start with biomass and
end up with a product to export, off site, for other uses.
Gasification may be one of the processes used and a small stove may be
a charcoal producer within such a scheme.

As to equipment I'll assume this is to briquette charcoal fines? On
the little searching I have done it seems the cost of a non fossil
derived binder other than clay (which increases weight and provides no
energy as well as increasing ash disposal), is a big drawback. In fact
in UK it looks like this cost is of the same order of the energy cost
of densifying sawdust to pellets.

Anyway the traditional way of briquetting charcoal dust is in an
opposed roller press, I have also seen "forged" briquettes. I have
extruded briquettes through a meat mincer, ELK at Chardust has
extruded them on a modified meat mincer on a commercial scale, he has
not yet reported back on his new briquetting equipment. ADKarve's
video shows holey "pucks" being made in a simple press.

From my few experiments crushed charcoal fines reach a density of
300kg/m^3 so ease of handling is the main reason for briquetting
rather than increasing bulk density for transport.

There are numerous ways and scales of making charcoal, traditional
lumpwood charcoal can be made in clamps or pits, the next step is in
simple ring kilns. At a similar level but larger scale are the masonry
kilns and ovens. All these seem to waste the energy released in the
offgas and often, in the absence of flaring this offgas, contribute
far more to pollution than simple burning of the wood.

Higher tech methods are retorts such as still made, I think, by
lambiotte. Then there are hybrid kiln/retorts, one imported here in UK
was made by gaillard, though I see no references to it now, the
biggest seems to be the Lurgi, two built for Simcoa in Australia.

At the smaller scale John from lanstar, occasionally posts on Stoves,
has an intermediate technology batch sequential system and ADKarve
shows his sugar cane trash carboniser on his video. I adapted this
method from an original idea posted by Yuri by submerging 200ltr oil
drums in my woodchip burner and a colleague did the same in one built
to my design. ELK's sawdust carboniser is a similar small scale clean
burning device.

Alex English demonstrated a scale up of the Reed-Larson idd charcoal
making stove some years back and I have done similar with woodchip. At
Cardiff University my colleague demonstrated a simple recirculating
system to produce high cv offgas sufficient to run a low pressure gas
turbine as well as lumpwood charcoal. These technologies are all
relatively clean burning.

CML in France (now owned by Regenat I think) have a modular kiln
system with a fair degree of mechanical handling the flare from which
lends itself for useful work, though I do not believe they have
harnessed it yet.

A simple coking oven design from South Africa was copied here for
making charcoal from billets of wood and marketed as the "webster
retort" It's major drawback was the amount of support wood needed to
heat it up.

A direct fired air starved system is marketed, in UK, as the "Viper"
and I did try an earlier version but productivity was highly
restricted, I used a similar approach which I called the "modified pit
method" which allowed a high work rate using mechanical handling,
though the yield was poor and the offgas was flared, the significant
problem with this was in cooling the large volume of char. Both of the
above tended to have char which contained visible ash which indicates
temperatures were too high and air was reaching the char.

A sophisticated system is the Reichart process, though I have never
seen it, which reclaims tar, acetic acid, methanol as well as charcoal
with a thermal efficiency of 73%, I wonder if any still operate?

Searches also yield a Herreshoff furnace for fines in Australia.

There must be dozens more.

AJH

From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Dec 1 09:49:43 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 07:49:43 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: Not-processed biomass fuels, and making pellets
Message-ID: <003c01c4d7bd$69283510$6701a8c0@Yellow>

Forwarded to the list.

----- Original Message -----
From: p.caruso
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 12:50 AM
Subject: Not-processed biomass fuels, and making pellets

Harmon,
I just read your article of 2002 in your desire to make your own pellets. I have access to tons of hardwood sawdust, but like you don't have the $ for professional making equipment. Have you come up with any cost effective way to acquire some kind of machine? I was also interested in what kind of binding material you had in mind or the mixture of sawdust and other binding materials. I would be interested. This is my first year with the pellet stove and I am interested in making my own. Any further ideas since sawdust is readily available for me?
Thanks,
Perry Caruso
p.caruso at insightbb.com

From jeff.forssell at cfl.se Thu Dec 2 03:04:40 2004
From: jeff.forssell at cfl.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:04:40 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] LED lighting from DEAD batteries!
Message-ID: <97B27EC59D58DC42856B50331F0BF2A40E8419@floyd.cfl.local>

The LED lighting thread hasn't been so active lately but when I saw this I thought it should qualify. Batteries are expensive and people in Tanzania tried to coax out some extra energy by putting them in the sun. The temperature may have given a very marginal effect. But this is totally something else:

I haven't tried it built it looks feasible: A simple circuit to transform the leftover voltage in a dead (<1.35V) s? it can run an LED (which usually needs about 3 V)

"Here's the Joule thief. It's like an open PCB torch that will take either an AA or AAA battery in the holder and use whatever power is left in the battery to light a white LED.
The amazing thing about this circuit is that it will run right down to about 0.35V if left running continuously, and will often provide a week of continuous low level light from a battery that would normally be considered dead."

http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/joule.htm

Lots of other LED projects there too.

Med v?nliga h?lsningar!
/Jeff
------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Forssell
Fil.Lic. i Fysik
Nationellt centrum f?r flexibelt l?rande, CFL
0611-55 79 48 (fax: 0611-55 79 80)
070-35 80 306
Box 3024, SE-871 03 H?RN?SAND /Sweden
<http://www.cfl.se/>

From erin at trmiles.com Thu Dec 2 10:15:28 2004
From: erin at trmiles.com (Erin Miles Rasmussen)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:15:28 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: Looking for World Bank report on stoves
Message-ID: <007601c4d88a$2d744ea0$6401a8c0@inventor>

This message looks like it was accidentally caught by the spam filter.
Please reply to Patrick.
- Erin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick van Sleight" <vansleight at www.edrc.uct.ac.za>
To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 2:33 AM
Subject: Looking for World Bank report on stoves

I seem to have some difficulty in finding a copy of this report: "Test

results of kerosene and other stoves for developing countries" Energy

Department Paper No. 27. The World Bank, Washington, CD, September, 1988.

It is not on the Worldbank website. Any leads or references would be

welcomed.

Regards,

Patrick van Sleight

Media & Information Officer

Energy Research Centre

Faculty of Engineering and the Built Environment

University of Cape Town

Private Bag

Rondebosch, 7701

South Africa

web: www.erc.uct.ac.za

e-mail: patrick at erc.uct.ac.za

tel: + 27 21 650 3230

fax: + 27 21 650 2830

mobile: + 27 83 708 5027

Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org)

Debian Project (http://www.debian.org)

From tmiles at trmiles.com Thu Dec 2 22:44:56 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 20:44:56 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Two Stoves Camps in India November 2004 Ken Goyer,
Damon Ogle
Message-ID: <011801c4d8f2$df414b20$6701a8c0@Yellow>

Stovers,

Ken Goyer has provided us with wonderful images from two stoves camps that he and Damon Ogle conducted in India hosted by
Development Alternatives http://www.devalt.org/
and ARTI
http://solstice.crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ARTI/arti.html
and supported by Shell Foundation
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

With Ken's craft in ceramics and Damon's hexagonal rocket construction it's great to see how adaptable the modular rocket has become in a couple of short years.

Thanks Ken and Damon for sharing the experience.

Regards,

Tom Miles

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Dec 3 00:23:40 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:23:40 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Better Air Quality 2004, Agra India Dec 6-8
Message-ID: <001c01c4d900$a523c9f0$6701a8c0@Yellow>

Is anyone going to to the Indoor Air Quality Session at Better Air Quality in Agra, India Dec 6-8?

Tom

From mhkendig at comcast.net Fri Dec 3 13:58:06 2004
From: mhkendig at comcast.net (mhkendig at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:58:06 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Information For Guatemala
Message-ID: <211820-22004125319586468@M2W068.mail2web.com>

Hi,

My name is Mike Kendig. I am part of the Guatemala Partnership for the
First Presbyterian Church of Howard County in Maryland. We have a covenant
with a Presbyteria in Boca Costa. Since our last trip in July of 2004, we
are very interested in helping our brothers and sisters develop a better
life by installing stoves in their homes and removing the 3 rock fires they
use to cook with.

I am new to the list and have only looked at some of the threads. What is
a good solution for us to implement and are there detailed plans available?

Help with chimmney design and material would also be appreciated.

We would like to prototype the stoves here in Maryland and then teach our
brothers how to make the stoves next July when we return. And teach our
sisters how to best use the stoves.

Thanks,

Mike Kendig
mhkendig at comcast.net
(410) 740-8228

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Dec 3 14:07:21 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:07:21 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Information For Guatemala
In-Reply-To: <211820-22004125319586468@M2W068.mail2web.com>
References: <211820-22004125319586468@M2W068.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <3lh1r0ho0eotou3ubk8ahagrru9u8oc1s1@4ax.com>

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:58:06 -0500, mhkendig at comcast.net wrote:

>Hi,
>
>My name is Mike Kendig.

Welcome Mike
>
>I am new to the list and have only looked at some of the threads. What is
>a good solution for us to implement and are there detailed plans available?

I'm sure you'll hear many suggestions but a good first stop is our
stoves resource page at
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

There is a wealth of knowledge there, have a look and then we might
discuss anything specific you want to know, if we can.

Andrew Heggie

From rmiranda at inet.com.br Fri Dec 3 15:17:34 2004
From: rmiranda at inet.com.br (Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:17:34 -0200
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Information For Guatemala
In-Reply-To: <211820-22004125319586468@M2W068.mail2web.com>
References: <211820-22004125319586468@M2W068.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041203191147.02a3f240@inet.com.br>

Mike:

Search for:
1. at the stoves web site for Guatemala,
2. at www.treeswaterpeople.org and see their work with Justa stoves in
Guatemala,
3 at www.helps.org (not sure about this site but search for Helps
International) and their stove factory in Guatemala,
4. Search for FIS (Fondo de Inversion Social) a government agency in Guate
which has built over 100.000 plancha stoves
5. search for "masons in a mission", they also have done custom made stoves
in Guate.

good luck

rogerio

At 17:58 3/12/2004, mhkendig at comcast.net wrote:
>Hi,
>
>My name is Mike Kendig. I am part of the Guatemala Partnership for the
>First Presbyterian Church of Howard County in Maryland. We have a covenant
>with a Presbyteria in Boca Costa. Since our last trip in July of 2004, we
>are very interested in helping our brothers and sisters develop a better
>life by installing stoves in their homes and removing the 3 rock fires they
>use to cook with.
>
>I am new to the list and have only looked at some of the threads. What is
>a good solution for us to implement and are there detailed plans available?
>
>Help with chimmney design and material would also be appreciated.
>
>We would like to prototype the stoves here in Maryland and then teach our
>brothers how to make the stoves next July when we return. And teach our
>sisters how to best use the stoves.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike Kendig
>mhkendig at comcast.net
>(410) 740-8228
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>mail2web - Check your email from the web at
>http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Dec 3 17:21:30 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 15:21:30 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Information For Guatemala
References: <211820-22004125319586468@M2W068.mail2web.com>
<6.1.1.1.0.20041203191147.02a3f240@inet.com.br>
Message-ID: <028701c4d990$8ae7c6a0$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

Rogerio, Mike,

Some sites:

HELPS http://www.helpsintl.org Don Oneal
Helps Stoves http://www.helpsintl.org/stoves/
Helps Stoves Factory in Rio Bravo
http://solstice.crest.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Oneil/riobravo.html
Masons on a Mission http://www.midcoast.com/masonsonamission/ Patrick Manley
Guatemala Stoves Project http://www.guatemalastoveproject.org/ Tom Clarke
Fondo de Inversion Social http://www.redsocial.org/interred/gt/fis/
Biomass Cooking Stoves
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda" <rmiranda at inet.com.br>
To: <mhkendig at comcast.net>; <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stove Information For Guatemala

> Mike:
>
> Search for:
> 1. at the stoves web site for Guatemala,
> 2. at www.treeswaterpeople.org and see their work with Justa stoves in
> Guatemala,
> 3 at www.helps.org (not sure about this site but search for Helps
> International) and their stove factory in Guatemala,
> 4. Search for FIS (Fondo de Inversion Social) a government agency in Guate
> which has built over 100.000 plancha stoves
> 5. search for "masons in a mission", they also have done custom made
> stoves in Guate.
>
> good luck
>
> rogerio
>
> At 17:58 3/12/2004, mhkendig at comcast.net wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>My name is Mike Kendig. I am part of the Guatemala Partnership for the
>>First Presbyterian Church of Howard County in Maryland. We have a covenant
>>with a Presbyteria in Boca Costa. Since our last trip in July of 2004, we
>>are very interested in helping our brothers and sisters develop a better
>>life by installing stoves in their homes and removing the 3 rock fires
>>they
>>use to cook with.
>>
>>I am new to the list and have only looked at some of the threads. What is
>>a good solution for us to implement and are there detailed plans
>>available?
>>
>>Help with chimmney design and material would also be appreciated.
>>
>>We would like to prototype the stoves here in Maryland and then teach our
>>brothers how to make the stoves next July when we return. And teach our
>>sisters how to best use the stoves.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Mike Kendig
>>mhkendig at comcast.net
>>(410) 740-8228
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>mail2web - Check your email from the web at
>>http://mail2web.com/ .
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Stoves mailing list
>>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>

From peetersfrans at pandora.be Sat Dec 4 19:41:58 2004
From: peetersfrans at pandora.be (Frans Peeters)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 02:41:58 +0100
Subject: [Stoves]
ORIGINAL , MOST FANTASTIC STOVE DESIGN from Swedish armry !
Message-ID: <000701c4da6b$9be77690$1400a8c0@franspcsnel>

Dear stove fans in Guatemala and Maryland .,

We must think HORIZONTAL ,not vertical by stove constructions .
I have tested it and admired over all my own constructions open fire and
cassettes ..
I think I got the secret .:
Weld 6 plates of 3 mm thick together .
Max height 25 cm (10 inch ) ,so the heat. Is to use for 3 cookings on
top .
The carbon particles in the fume are better burned ,warmer against the
top side .
Large only 30 cm .
Long 60-70 cm
Front door 18 by 25 cm, with variable air -inlet downside , 1 by 6 cm
variable .
Feets 40cm high.
Off gas 8cm diameter tube
The size is critical ! If you need bigger stoves, you construct more of
this size ,and put it together ..
SPECIAL:
It burns tries 60cm long in one piece , like a cigar.
No smoke by loading too early .
Warmer top part, less soot particles,less creosot tar by pine trees .
Easy for self construction , only welding ,no cast iron !
Recup. plates from scrap are reusable . With sandblasting and
alu-paint. Or stove-black .

Always led dry the wood for 1 -5 years !

Greetings
Frans

From robdeutsch at online.com.kh Sat Dec 4 07:15:22 2004
From: robdeutsch at online.com.kh (Robert Deutsch)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 20:15:22 +0700
Subject: [Stoves] Charcoal Briquetting- Chardust Update.
References: <009a01c4d765$310e3560$1350083e@toshibauser>
Message-ID: <016c01c4da10$828cbd50$9daa3442@SFKC.GOV.KH>

I was interested in your briquetting process. What binder are you using and
do you have some photos of the unit in operation?

Best regards,

R-

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elsen Karstad" <elk at wananchi.com>
To: <rbarjon at tampabay.rr.com>
Cc: "stoves" <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 12:12 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Charcoal Briquetting- Chardust Update.

At Chardust Ltd. we're not currently involved in the manufacture of
charcoal. We salvage (purchase) the discarded bottom-of-the-sack dust from
the many urban charcoal wholesaling sites around Nairobi, but we do
briquette a reasonable amount of this material. We're pleased to note that
charcoal dust is rarely 'discarded' in Nairobi these days- it's heaped in
neat piles for our collection lorries.

Our vendor's waste charcoal briquettes average 35 grams & are pillow-shaped.
We are currently idling along at an average daily output of 7.2 tons &
selling mainly to poultry farmers (chick brooder heating), hotels, lodges
and restaurants (cooking and water heating) and directly to the domestic
consumer partly via five dedicated Chardust sales kiosks we've scattered
around Nairobi. Our prices are largely determined by prevailing
bush-charcoal prices. Current ex-factory selling price is USD $0.08 per kg,
(bush charcoal averages $0.14/kg). We start seeing modest profits at outputs
over 150 tons per month.

Vendor's waste charcoal differs from pure wood charcoal by having a higher
ash content (30%) and a resultant longer slower and cleaner burn. This is
advantageous for most commercial uses but proves less than satisfactory to
many consumers using the smallest charcoal stoves, as the ash-inhibited burn
rate is more pronounced with very small stoves (cap'y less than 12
briquettes).

Our Indian-made roller briquetters come in two sizes- rated outputs at 1 ton
& 1.5 ton per hour using 7.5 & 10 KW motors respectively. This output level
can be achieved using high quality binder & consistent particle size, but
attempts to save money by deviating from the optimum binder recipe results
in increased breakage that must be recycled. No major problem, but we've
seen output fall to around half of the rated capacity. It's a trade-off that
can, in some circumstances, be justified.

Kilns used for carbonising wood come in many sizes and shapes, from the
simple and inefficient earthen mound (8 to 10% conversion) through a variety
of clay and brick kilns to large steel Quonset types (15 to 25% conversion)
to cutting-edge low-emission partially closed-cycle heat conserving computer
controlled turnkey plants claiming conversion rates of up to 38%. We are
about to begin trials along the coast here with a 9m long South-African made
steel 'Quonset' kiln in the hope that a variety of local agri-industrial by
products can be carbonised- coconut husk is of particular interest.

elk
--------------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk at wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi, Kenya

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Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
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From kgoyer at comcast.net Sun Dec 5 07:18:18 2004
From: kgoyer at comcast.net (ken goyer)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 05:18:18 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability
In-Reply-To: <20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net>
References: <20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <41B30A9A.5070001@comcast.net>

Dear friends, The smokestacks on the Queen Mary are painted with yellow
ochre suspended in buttermilk. I hope to receive a full report . Best
regards, Ken Goyer

Dean Still wrote:

>Dear Friends,
>
>Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint, that will
>double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are starting
>to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
>doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
>enough...
>
>Best,
>
>Dean
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>
>

From woldfamily at gmail.com Sun Dec 5 08:21:23 2004
From: woldfamily at gmail.com (WG9)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 08:21:23 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Replacing Three Rock cooking fires ....
In-Reply-To: <20041204170011.DF1E1296D5@ns2.misteam.net>
References: <20041204170011.DF1E1296D5@ns2.misteam.net>
Message-ID: <8cb042a5041205062132075fc@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,
I would strongly suggest looking into the "Justa" and "Lorena"
stoves.. both are fully developed, I believe one is a derivative of
the other.. I too am involved in a mission that is trying to work
towards the same goals.. Approvecho (www.approvecho.com I think ?)
should have links to those stoves and lots of good info on basic stove
development with less wood usage and chimneys to get the smoke out of
the home ....
...hope this helps..
WG9

From kgoyer at comcast.net Sun Dec 5 22:27:38 2004
From: kgoyer at comcast.net (ken goyer)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:27:38 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Chimney durability
In-Reply-To: <000401c4dadd$ca87edf0$6678040a@don>
References: <20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net>
<41B30A9A.5070001@comcast.net> <000401c4dadd$ca87edf0$6678040a@don>
Message-ID: <41B3DFBA.9070609@comcast.net>

Dear Don, I needed to refresh my memory but this is what I found fast
which seems to tell the basic story. I learned of this use on the Queen
Mary from David Mann, the retired engineer giving tours of the boilers
and turbines on the Queen Mary. He said that it was the only thing they
found that would hold up to the corrosive gasses and the elements..
Evidently this is traditional boat knowledge. I think that it is
readily available and quite cheap but I don't know where to buy it. I
would try paint stores and chemical supply companies. Best of luck, Ken

How Yellow ochre is made:

Source:

Natural mineral consisting of silica and clay owing its color to iron
oxide. It is found throughout the world, in many shades, in hues from
yellow to brown, and faint blue. The best brown ochre comes from Cyprus.
The pigment has good hiding power and excellent permanence in all media.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Natural variety of pigment

Colored earth is mined, ground and washed, leaving a mixture of minerals
- essentially rust-stained clay. Ochre can be used raw (yellowish), or
roasted for a deeper (brown-red) color from loss of water of hydration.
Produces a quick-drying oil paint.

How yellow ochre is made
Natural mineral consisting of silica and clay owing its color to iron
oxide. It is found throughout the world, in many shades, in hues from
yellow to brown, and faint blue. The best brown ochre comes from Cyprus.
The pigment has good hiding power and excellent permanence in all media.

Colored earth is mined, ground and washed, leaving a mixture of minerals
- essentially rust-stained clay. Ochre can be used raw (yellowish), or
roasted for a deeper (brown-red) color from loss of water of hydration.
Produces a quick-drying oil paint.
This information is from:
http://webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/recipe/yellowochre.html

Don O'Neal wrote:

> Hi Ken,
> Educate me. I think of yellow ochre as a color but it must be a
> substance. I that what you mean.
> Regards DON
>
> Don O'Neal
> Note new address
> (dononeal at usa.net)
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ken goyer" <kgoyer at comcast.net>
> To: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
> Cc: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>; "'ethos'" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 7:18 AM
> Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Chimney durability
>
>
>> Dear friends, The smokestacks on the Queen Mary are painted with
>> yellow ochre suspended in buttermilk. I hope to receive a full report
>> . Best regards, Ken Goyer
>>
>> Dean Still wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Friends,
>>>
>>> Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint,
>>> that will
>>> double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are
>>> starting
>>> to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
>>> doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
>>> enough...
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Dean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> To unsubscribe, send email to majormail at vrac.iastate.edu with
>> this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
>> ---
>>
>
>
>

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Mon Dec 6 00:45:28 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 08:45:28 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Chimney durability
In-Reply-To: <41B3DFBA.9070609@comcast.net>
References: <20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net> <41B30A9A.5070001@comcast.net>
<000401c4dadd$ca87edf0$6678040a@don> <41B3DFBA.9070609@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <41B40008.7090906@legacyfound.org>

That yellow ochre is, if my geology still serves me, an alumino silicate
or "laterite" clay. largely an oxide stained Kayolin. Funny thing
abouutt the buttermilk too: In Sri Lanka we noticed egg based paintings
on the rock walls of Sigiria dating back over a 1000 years and still
quite recognisable. Never had the occasion to try it as a corrosion
resistant medium for galvanised surfaces at temperature though. You can
find it usually righ above granitic bed rock in highly leached tropical
conditions. (Mahattea Bandarage in gamak de Ambepussa knows the best
sources too).

Albumenally (?) yours,

Richard Stanley

ken goyer wrote:

> Dear Don, I needed to refresh my memory but this is what I found fast
> which seems to tell the basic story. I learned of this use on the
> Queen Mary from David Mann, the retired engineer giving tours of the
> boilers and turbines on the Queen Mary. He said that it was the only
> thing they found that would hold up to the corrosive gasses and the
> elements.. Evidently this is traditional boat knowledge. I think that
> it is readily available and quite cheap but I don't know where to buy
> it. I would try paint stores and chemical supply companies. Best of
> luck, Ken
>
>
>
> How Yellow ochre is made:
>
> Source:
>
> Natural mineral consisting of silica and clay owing its color to iron
> oxide. It is found throughout the world, in many shades, in hues from
> yellow to brown, and faint blue. The best brown ochre comes from
> Cyprus. The pigment has good hiding power and excellent permanence in
> all media.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Natural variety of pigment
>
> Colored earth is mined, ground and washed, leaving a mixture of
> minerals - essentially rust-stained clay. Ochre can be used raw
> (yellowish), or roasted for a deeper (brown-red) color from loss of
> water of hydration. Produces a quick-drying oil paint.
>
>
>
>
> How yellow ochre is made
> Natural mineral consisting of silica and clay owing its color to iron
> oxide. It is found throughout the world, in many shades, in hues from
> yellow to brown, and faint blue. The best brown ochre comes from
> Cyprus. The pigment has good hiding power and excellent permanence in
> all media.
>
> Colored earth is mined, ground and washed, leaving a mixture of
> minerals - essentially rust-stained clay. Ochre can be used raw
> (yellowish), or roasted for a deeper (brown-red) color from loss of
> water of hydration. Produces a quick-drying oil paint.
> This information is from:
> http://webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/recipe/yellowochre.html
>
> Don O'Neal wrote:
>
>> Hi Ken,
>> Educate me. I think of yellow ochre as a color but it must be a
>> substance. I that what you mean.
>> Regards DON
>>
>> Don O'Neal
>> Note new address
>> (dononeal at usa.net)
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ken goyer" <kgoyer at comcast.net>
>> To: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
>> Cc: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>; "'ethos'" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 7:18 AM
>> Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Chimney durability
>>
>>
>>> Dear friends, The smokestacks on the Queen Mary are painted with
>>> yellow ochre suspended in buttermilk. I hope to receive a full
>>> report . Best regards, Ken Goyer
>>>
>>> Dean Still wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Friends,
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint,
>>>> that will
>>>> double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are
>>>> starting
>>>> to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
>>>> doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
>>>> enough...
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Dean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Stoves mailing list
>>>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> To unsubscribe, send email to majormail at vrac.iastate.edu with
>>> this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
>>> ---
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
>

From pverhaart at iprimus.com.au Mon Dec 6 01:16:05 2004
From: pverhaart at iprimus.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:16:05 +1000
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Chimney durability
In-Reply-To: <41B3DFBA.9070609@comcast.net>
References: <20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net>
<41B30A9A.5070001@comcast.net> <000401c4dadd$ca87edf0$6678040a@don>
<41B3DFBA.9070609@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041206171117.01b9c560@pop.iprimus.com.au>

At 14:27 06/12/04, you wrote:
>Dear Don, I needed to refresh my memory but this is what I found fast
>which seems to tell the basic story. I learned of this use on the Queen
>Mary from David Mann, the retired engineer giving tours of the boilers and
>turbines on the Queen Mary. He said that it was the only thing they found
>that would hold up to the corrosive gasses and the elements.. Evidently
>this is traditional boat knowledge. I think that it is readily available
>and quite cheap but I don't know where to buy it. I would try paint stores
>and chemical supply companies. Best of luck, Ken

Boilers and turbines. That means oil is burned in the boilers. We can be
sure the combustion will be complete, for economical reasons if nothing
else. The cheapest oil contains sulphur, which forms the most corrosive
deposits in cool chimneys. We don't have that particular problem in
wood-fired applications, our problem is incomplete combustion which usually
results in deposits in the chimney, eventually blocking it or catching fire
in a spectacular way.
So don't expect Queen Mary's cure to work for woodstoves.

Happy St. Nicolas,

Piet

From omoluabi2002 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 6 05:40:32 2004
From: omoluabi2002 at yahoo.com (ranti adeyinka)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 03:40:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stoves] Re:Briqueting Process
Message-ID: <20041206114032.58382.qmail@web50909.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,
I am intrested in your briquetting process,I want to know the type of binder you use?,did you bind before carbonisation or after carbonization? and If you carbonise before binding then how did you carbonise the sawdust and other agro material.

Best Regard

Yinka

---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.

From woldfamily at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 07:07:04 2004
From: woldfamily at gmail.com (WG9)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 07:07:04 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Replacing Three Rock cooking fires ....
In-Reply-To: <20041205165150.7470D7E@telchar.epud.net>
References: <8cb042a5041205062132075fc@mail.gmail.com>
<20041205165150.7470D7E@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <8cb042a504120605073a62f89@mail.gmail.com>

Dean,
It has been my understanding that one was the design predecessor of
the other..so that would stand to reason if the Justa is the
derivative of the Lorena.
Thanks for clarifying...
WG9

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 08:51:50 -0800, Dean Still <dstill at epud.net> wrote:
> Dear WG9,
>
> The Justa is quite different from the Lorena and is much more fuel
> efficient, etc.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
> Aprovecho
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of WG9
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 6:21 AM
> To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: [Stoves] Replacing Three Rock cooking fires ....
>
> Mike,
> I would strongly suggest looking into the "Justa" and "Lorena"
> stoves.. both are fully developed, I believe one is a derivative of
> the other.. I too am involved in a mission that is trying to work
> towards the same goals.. Approvecho (www.approvecho.com I think ?)
> should have links to those stoves and lots of good info on basic stove
> development with less wood usage and chimneys to get the smoke out of
> the home ....
> ...hope this helps..
> WG9
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
>

From cree at dowco.com Mon Dec 6 07:46:29 2004
From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 05:46:29 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Re:Briqueting Process
In-Reply-To: <20041206114032.58382.qmail@web50909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLEFLNMHNDFEMMIJPGFIIEGODEAA.cree@dowco.com>

Dear Yinka,
In our process we bind the sawdust by compression, using a screw, and then
heating / melting the
"Lignin", which then glues the briquette together.
john olsen
www.heatloginc.com
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.804 / Virus Database: 546 - Release Date: 11/30/2004

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Dec 4 11:04:36 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 17:04:36 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove
In-Reply-To: <65d61b6618fd.6618fd65d61b@vsnl.net>
References: <65d61b6618fd.6618fd65d61b@vsnl.net>
Message-ID: <kcr3r01pi4bpsjgtah7a6as5vruijjdum9@4ax.com>

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 06:26:30 +0500, anilrajvanshi at vsnl.com wrote:

>After we do the field trials then we will be in a position to sell them.

I received this from Paul Anderson, I am not sure if you have received
his messages Anil?

"Friends,
I know that Andrew received this message, but I have not heard from
Anil nor from Roberto. Please reply so that I know you have seen this
message and that I am using a correct e-mail address. I want to have
serious contacts about
the prospects of the ethanol stove.
Thanks,
Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(in Brazil until 24 Dec 2005)"

From kmbryden at iastate.edu Mon Dec 6 22:06:02 2004
From: kmbryden at iastate.edu (Mark Bryden)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 22:06:02 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] ETHOS conference registration
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041206220543.01e30020@kmbryden.mail.iastate.edu>

All,

Online ETHOS conference registration is available at
http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos05/register/.

I'll see you there.

Mark

___________________________________________________________
Kenneth "Mark" Bryden, Ph.D. Associate Professor
kmbryden at iastate.edu Iowa State University
ph: 515-294-3891 3030 Black Engineering Bldg
fax: 515-294-3261 Ames, Iowa 50011-2161

From woldfamily at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 22:53:32 2004
From: woldfamily at gmail.com (WG9)
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:53:32 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Applying coatings to galvanized...
In-Reply-To: <20041206170008.1E1FB2957C@ns2.misteam.net>
References: <20041206170008.1E1FB2957C@ns2.misteam.net>
Message-ID: <8cb042a504120620531ba359f8@mail.gmail.com>

Hey there list..
I missed this the last time I read it.. but I am afraid that trying to
apply any coating to galvanized material is likely to be a waste of
time.. I spent 17 years in a sheet metal factory most of it applying
coatings to steel.. we never had any luck with any coating adhering
well to galvanized.. Not sure what the chemical reasons are .. maybe
somene else knows better or differently if so please educate me?!?!
... but galvanized steel tends to 'shed' any coating applied under any
sort of duress..it will look ok until it is scraped or scuffed or left
wet .. or sometimes chemically attacked but it doesn't take much to
remove an applied and baked on coating from galvanized..so I am afraid
you are wasting your time in trying to coat it..
Again I wish to reiterate there may be some coatings that will work ..
I don't know everything there is to know about paints.. but even the
different types of Powder Coating (basically an epoxy dust melted onto
the surface under high heat and EXTREMLY durable) will not stay
applied to galvanized in my experience...
...so ....for what it is worth...
WG9

From kgoyer at comcast.net Tue Dec 7 00:46:40 2004
From: kgoyer at comcast.net (ken goyer)
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 22:46:40 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability from ken
Message-ID: <41B551CF.60508@comcast.net>

Dear friends, I sent this yesterday but I think it went astray. If you
got it please pardon the repeat but it didn't show up anywhere so I
thought I'd try again--Ken

Don O'Neal wrote:

From crispin at newdawn.sz Tue Dec 7 04:59:13 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 12:59:13 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Applying coatings to galvanized...
Message-ID: <007701c4dc4b$e15ddf20$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Stovers

Thanks to "WG9"
"... but galvanized steel tends to 'shed' any coating applied under any sort
of duress"

Zinc protects by shedding the oxide layer wihch is a powder. You can
sometimes see it washing off roofs and accumulating in the gutters.

In effect a galvanised sheet is a mild steel sheet covered with a
sacrificial anode. The thicker the zinc the longer it prevents rust. When
it is used up, the rust starts. This is completely different from stainless
steel which has chrome (etc) occupying the oxidation sites in the crystal
structure and literally prevents corrosion.

Whatever coating you put on attaches to the surface of the zinc and when
something allows the air or water in, the powdering starts.

I think it is better to coat mild steel than zinc. I concur with the epoxy
story. We use it on ram pumps and hospital equipment.

Regards
Crispin

From erin at trmiles.com Tue Dec 7 12:42:30 2004
From: erin at trmiles.com (Erin Miles Rasmussen)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:42:30 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: [ethos] Chimney durability from ken
Message-ID: <007701c4dc8c$8d1321f0$6401a8c0@inventor>

(This got caught by the bounce filter, so I'm forwarding it to the list - please be careful to reply just to the list to ensure that your message will get through. - Erin)
----- Original Message -----
From: Laurie Childers
To: 'ken goyer' ; 'Don O'Neal' ; 'ethos' ; STOVES at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [ethos] Chimney durability from ken

Yellow ochre is indeed an iron-rich clay mineral. You would be able to buy it at Georgie's ceramic supply store in Eugene, Oregon on Railroad Blvd very near the overpass. Any ceramic supply store, including mail-order like Axner's in Florida, will have it. Those of you in the US, call a local potter and ask where the nearest ceramic supply store is.

The basic substance of the hill I live on here in Corvallis is an orangey iron-rich clay, and I have been calling it yellow ochre for all the 13 years I've lived here, although I have never had it analyzed. I think there are parts of Aprovecho's land where the clay is that color. I remember better the dark grey clay deposits, they are also very rich in iron, and might work as well. Would be interesting to compare the home-dug stuff with the store-bought stuff. Might be just as good.

The suspending agent, buttermilk, as I recall from my time in Southern England, is a different beast in England than it is here, as are many dairy products. My memory is hazy on the exact details, since I'm not a dairy drinker. The thick creamy cultured sour-tasting drink is called buttermilk, as is the clearish liquid that is leftover from making butter, isn't that what we here normally call whey? Any Brits out there who can clarify the appearance and perhaps the preparation of buttermilk? What a boon, as milk is one widely available substance.

Congratulations on a great information find, Ken!

Laurie Childers

2675 SW Fairmont Drive

Corvallis, OR 97333

tel: 541-757-9025

childers at peak.org

www.lauriechilders.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ethos at vrac.iastate.edu [mailto:owner-ethos at vrac.iastate.edu] On Behalf Of ken goyer
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 10:47 PM
To: Don O'Neal; ethos; STOVES at listserv.repp.org
Subject: [ethos] Chimney durability from ken

Dear friends, I sent this yesterday but I think it went astray. If you got it please pardon the repeat but it didn't show up anywhere so I thought I'd try again--Ken

Dear Don, I needed to refresh my memory but this is what I found fast which seems to tell the basic story. I learned of this use on the Queen Mary from David Mann, the retired engineer giving tours of the boilers and turbines on the Queen Mary. He said that it was the only thing they found that would hold up to the corrosive gasses and the elements.. Evidently this is traditional boat knowledge. I think that it is readily available and quite cheap but I don't know where to buy it. I would try paint stores and chemical supply companies. Best of luck, Ken

How yellow ochre is made
Natural mineral consisting of silica and clay owing its color to iron oxide. It is found throughout the world, in many shades, in hues from yellow to brown, and faint blue. The best brown ochre comes from Cyprus. The pigment has good hiding power and excellent permanence in all media.

Colored earth is mined, ground and washed, leaving a mixture of minerals - essentially rust-stained clay. Ochre can be used raw (yellowish), or roasted for a deeper (brown-red) color from loss of water of hydration. Produces a quick-drying oil paint.
This information is from:
http://webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/recipe/yellowochre.html

Don O'Neal wrote:

Hi Ken,
Educate me. I think of yellow ochre as a color but it must be a substance. I that what you mean.
Regards DON

Don O'Neal
Note new address
(dononeal at usa.net)
----- Original Message ----- From: "ken goyer" <kgoyer at comcast.net>
To: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
Cc: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>; "'ethos'" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 7:18 AM
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Chimney durability

Dear friends, The smokestacks on the Queen Mary are painted with yellow ochre suspended in buttermilk. I hope to receive a full report . Best regards, Ken Goyer

Dean Still wrote:

Dear Friends,

Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint, that will
double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are starting
to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
enough...

Best,

Dean

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From dstill at epud.net Tue Dec 7 13:04:04 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:04:04 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Intro to report on heat transfer
Message-ID: <20041207190404.D5B3344@telchar.epud.net>

http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

Introduction to Dr. Andreatta's report on heat transfer found above:

A series of about 100 tests was conducted relative to increasing the heat
transfer efficiency of cook stoves. Almost all tests were done using a
simulated wood fire with natural gas as the fuel, burned in a low velocity
fully non-premixed manner. The flame was similar to a wood fire, except
that the firepower could be precisely controlled and measured. A new
technique was also developed for data reduction, using easily measured
variables to estimate the mass flow rate through the stove, average gas
temperature coming up through the riser, air-fuel ratio, and log-mean
temperature difference at the pot.

The main finding was that the most important variable by far in determining
the heat transfer to the pot is the temperature of the gases coming up
through the riser. Within a fairly narrow band of scatter, the heat
transfer to the pot is a linear function of this temperature. The corollary
to this finding is that changes to the stove are generally ineffective,
except in how they affect the riser temperature. For example, the common
belief is that tight skirts and tight flow passages increase heat transfer
by forcing hot air against the sides of the pot. My conclusion is that this
is mostly false, that skirts and tight passages may be helpful, but mostly
because they choke off the excess air flowing through the riser and keep the
average riser temperature higher.

To get high efficiency one must limit the excess air, however, too little
excess air leads to sooting and high pollution, hence it appears that the
air-fuel ratio needs to be controlled within a tight band to give good
efficiency without high pollution.

Some work was done measuring temperature distributions in the gas around the
pot. The temperatures and temperature gradients are much higher on the
bottom of the pot than on the sides. Some studies were also made of
unconfined flames simulating a 3-stone fire. While unconfined flames can
achieve very high efficiency, the conditions which produce high efficiency
tend to be the conditions that produce a lot of soot.

A number of schemes were tried for increasing the heat transfer regardless
of the combustion conditions. None of these techniques were successful, but
are reviewed. Tests were performed on a range of pot sizes. Bigger pots
lead to increased efficiency; however the gains are not large.

From ken at basterfield.com Tue Dec 7 13:15:05 2004
From: ken at basterfield.com (Ken Basterfield)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:15:05 -0000
Subject: [Stoves] Applying coatings to galvanized...
In-Reply-To: <8cb042a504120620531ba359f8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801c4dc91$115a8490$6602a8c0@KenThinkPad>

Dear All,

Galvanize is chemically active and sheds paint rapidly. There are
processes I am told to passivate the surface to allow it to take and
hold paint.
Extensive exposure to the weather will also passivate the surface if you
can wait.
There is a primer called Calcium plumbate which is made specifically for
painting on as a first coat to achieve the passivation required for
ordinary paint to then stick. I have had good success with it.
I am not sure how it would fair under the conditions in a flue stack
Sincerely
Ken

I've stopped 19,853 spam messages. You can too!
One month FREE spam protection at
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-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of WG9
Sent: 07 December 2004 04:54
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Subject: [Stoves] Applying coatings to galvanized...

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Tue Dec 7 18:37:55 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 18:37:55 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons
Message-ID: <00a701c4dcbe$290e5a80$1900a8c0@a31server>

One question about all this "coatings over galvanized"

In the world of heat producing appliances, who is using galvanized parts
anyhow ? The reason I'm asking is that when galvanized product is heated, it
gives off 2 things....

1) white "straw" the filament bonds of the actual process of zinc
application breaking down in the "oxide style method" in a VERY short period
of time.

2) Deadly "Arsenic" gas, depending on the amount of surface area brought
above the "bond breaking temp". If simply welding a seam, (very small area)
the person welding can be easy overcome from the small amount of fumes
created from this poison.

In Canada, any chimney sections can be any of 4 things, plain "black pipe"
(cold rolled steel 22 or 24 gauge, painted black), Porcelain covered steel
(like I spoke of in one of the early messages on this matter), Insulated
Chimney (inner/outer sections that safeguard on chimney fires) OR
Refractory flue.

Of course, any structure near the chimney must be protected in some method,
so the items named above, are required to be used in some sense of order to
protect the structure.

ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the lethal
by-products of heating it..

Greg Manning,
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

From koimnjj at minn.net Tue Dec 7 19:31:45 2004
From: koimnjj at minn.net (John G Johnston III)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:31:45 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons
In-Reply-To: <00a701c4dcbe$290e5a80$1900a8c0@a31server>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAyqe9U8iQIkWK/iq/ZFZdqcKAAAAQAAAAnO738jf7V0SuQVt+PofbCgEAAAAA@minn.net>

Greg - Are you able to sight any technical references to support your second
item on your list? Thanks! - John

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of a31ford
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:38 PM
To: STOVES (E-mail)
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons

One question about all this "coatings over galvanized"

In the world of heat producing appliances, who is using galvanized parts
anyhow ? The reason I'm asking is that when galvanized product is heated, it
gives off 2 things....

1) white "straw" the filament bonds of the actual process of zinc
application breaking down in the "oxide style method" in a VERY short period
of time.

Of course, any structure near the chimney must be protected in some method,
so the items named above, are required to be used in some sense of order to
protect the structure.

ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the lethal
by-products of heating it..

Greg Manning,
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Tue Dec 7 22:26:58 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 22:26:58 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAyqe9U8iQIkWK/iq/ZFZdqcKAAAAQAAAAnO738jf7V0SuQVt+PofbCgEAAAAA@minn.net>
Message-ID: <00ab01c4dcde$28c3d670$1900a8c0@a31server>

John

re: your questions about my item #2

Google search "Burning Zinc"

"Philosophers' wool, or nix alba (white snow) was zinc oxide made by burning
zinc in air."
from the page:
http://www.chemsoc.org/viselements/pages/alchemist/alc_zinc.html

zinc chloride

White; hexagonal; ZnCl2 ; poisonous. Obtained by the solution of
zinc, or zinc oxide, in hydrochloric acid, or by burning zinc in chlorine.
Used in galvanizing iron, as a catalyst, as a dehydrating agent, as a
condensing agent, as a wood preservative, as an ingredient in soldering
fluxes, in burnishing and polishing compounds for steel, in
electroplating, in glass-etching compositions, in petroleum refining, and
in pigments. Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 2
>From the page: http://www.maden.hacettepe.edu.tr/dmmrt/dmmrt1362.html

Zinc cyanide is either a white powder, or colourless, rhombic crystals. It
has the odour of bitter almonds. It decomposes at 800 ?C.
from the page:
http://www.npi.gov.au/database/substance-info/profiles/87.html

Worksafe Australia has defined zinc oxide as hazardous. The exposure
standard for zinc oxide dust is 10 milligram/m3 (TWA). For zinc oxide fumes
the exposure standard is 5 milligram/m3 (TWA) and 10 milligram/m3 (STEL)
respectively. Zinc chloride is an irritant. The exposure standard for zinc
chloride fumes is 1 milligram/m3 (TWA) and 2 milligram/m3 (STEL)
respectively. Zinc chromate is classified as toxic and its exposure standard
is 0.01 milligram/m3 (TWA, as chromium).
>From the same page as the one above.

Any way you cut it, it's known as poisonous or hazardous.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of John G Johnston
III
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 7:32 PM
To: 'STOVES (E-mail)'
Subject: RE: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons

Greg - Are you able to sight any technical references to support your second
item on your list? Thanks! - John

One question about all this "coatings over galvanized"

In the world of heat producing appliances, who is using galvanized parts
anyhow ? The reason I'm asking is that when galvanized product is heated, it
gives off 2 things....

1) white "straw" the filament bonds of the actual process of zinc
application breaking down in the "oxide style method" in a VERY short period
of time.

Of course, any structure near the chimney must be protected in some method,
so the items named above, are required to be used in some sense of order to
protect the structure.

ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the lethal
by-products of heating it..

Greg Manning,
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Tue Dec 7 22:30:50 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 22:30:50 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
Message-ID: <00b001c4dcde$b2e2e080$1900a8c0@a31server>

Zinc is an essential trace element in the diet of all living organisms from
bacteria to humans. Either too little zinc or too much zinc can be harmful,
causing health problems. The severity of health effects will depend on how
much zinc a person has been exposed to, for how long, the nature of the zinc
compound(s), and current state of health. A human body (70 kg) contains
about two grams of zinc. The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for zinc is
15 milligrams a day for men, 12 milligrams a day for women, 10 milligrams a
day for children and 5 milligrams a day for infants.
Not enough zinc in the diet can result in a loss of appetite, a decreased
sense of taste and smell, slow wound healing and skin sores, or a damaged
immune system. Young men who don't get enough zinc may have poorly developed
sex organs and slow growth. If a pregnant woman doesn't get enough zinc, her
babies may have growth retardation. Harmful health effects generally begin
at levels in the 100 to 250 milligrams a day range. Eating large amounts of
zinc, even for a short time, can cause stomach cramps, nausea, and vomiting.
Taken longer, it can cause anaemia, pancreas damage, and lower levels of
high density lipoprotein cholesterol (the 'good' form of cholesterol).
Ingesting too much zinc may also interfere with the body's ability to absorb
and use other essential minerals such as copper and iron. People with
potentially high exposure to zinc include those who intentionally consume
large doses of zinc as a dietary supplement, and patients who receive
chronic treatment with drugs containing zinc salts (such as injectable
insulin).
Zinc dust is irritating to the eyes, nose, and throat, and solid zinc
compounds are irritating to the skin and eyes. Breathing large amounts of
zinc dust can cause a cough with phlegm. Inhaling zinc dust or fumes can
cause 'metal fume fever' which affects the lungs and body temperature. Long
term effects of breathing high levels of zinc are unknown. Inhalation of
zinc oxide fumes is common in occupational exposures and can produce serious
injury to the respiratory system. Inhalation of zinc chloride fumes (smoke
bombs) can result in coughing, chest pain, and respiratory tract irritation.
Other symptoms include blueness of the skin (cyanosis), skin disease
(dermatosis), skin inflammation (dermatitis), skin burns, ulceration of
nasal passages, deficiency of calcium in the blood (hypocalcaemia), presence
of blood traces in the urine (microhematuria), and pneumonitis. The fumes
also affect eyes. Death can result from acute high dose inhalation of zinc
chloride smoke. Zinc sulfate is astringent and corrosive to skin, and can
cause dermatitis, boils, conjunctivitis, gastrointestinal disturbances,
vomiting, cramps, renal damage, and inflammation of the pancreas through
blood (haemorrhagic pancreatitis). Zinc sulfide is astringent and corrosive
to skin, and if ingested with a high gastric acidity may decompose to
hydrogen sulfide in the stomach, with subsequent systemic poisoning. In
large doses, it can cause vomiting and diarrhoea.

Some zinc compounds are very harmful not because of zinc but because of
other harmful constituents that make up the compounds. Examples include:
a.. zinc chromate (potential carcinogen, with many of the same health
effects as chromium and chromates, including ulceration of the nasal septum,
chronic rhinitis, respiratory irritations, conjunctivitis, skin ulcers,
dizziness, intense thirst, abdominal pain, vomiting, shock, absence of urine
(anuria), pharyngitis, dermatitis with fluid effusion (oedema) and
ulceration, and death due to retention of urinary constituents (uraemia));
b.. zinc cyanide (with many of the same health effects as cyanide,
including nausea, vomiting, confusion, vertigo, increased intake and depth
of respiration (hyperpnoea), breathing difficulties (dyspnoea), headache,
dizziness, dermatitis, weak and irregular pulse, blindness, damage to optic
nerves and retina, sudden loss of consciousness, convulsions, and death from
respiratory arrest);
c.. zinc fluoride (with many of the same health effects as fluoride,
including severe gastritis, abdominal pain, vomiting, diarrhoea, shock,
blueness of the skin (cyanosis), weak pulse, low blood pressure, drowsiness,
liver injury, hyperactive reflexes, increase in radiographic density of
bones (eventually causing anatomical abnormalities), and death from shock);
and
d.. zinc phosphide (may evolve phosphine in the presence of moisture,
which can cause intense nausea, abdominal pain, chills, tightness in the
chest, breathing difficulties (dyspnoea), cough, shock from toxic heart
muscle inflammation (myocarditis), jaundice from liver necrosis, severe
gastrointestinal irritation, and fatal pulmonary oedema (fluid in the
lungs)).
Taken from the page
http://www.npi.gov.au/database/substance-info/profiles/87.html

Greg Manning

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Tue Dec 7 23:30:23 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:30:23 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <00b001c4dcde$b2e2e080$1900a8c0@a31server>
References: <00b001c4dcde$b2e2e080$1900a8c0@a31server>
Message-ID: <41B6916F.9050800@legacyfound.org>

Ok for all the scientists out there, what about bginging the mountain to
mohammed. Corten steel was a very clever development the construction
industry. It was designed to create a protective oxide layer-- a sort
of controlled rust which protected it from further degradation. How was
it made: could that process be applied in a practical (3rd world
resource accessible) manner, to plain sheet steel for chimneys ?
Robin hood

a31ford wrote:

>Zinc is an essential trace element in the diet of all living organisms from
>bacteria to humans. Either too little zinc or too much zinc can be harmful,
>causing health problems. The severity of health effects will depend on how
>much zinc a person has been exposed to, for how long, the nature of the zinc
>compound(s), and current state of health. A human body (70 kg) contains
>about two grams of zinc. The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for zinc is
>15 milligrams a day for men, 12 milligrams a day for women, 10 milligrams a
>day for children and 5 milligrams a day for infants.
>Not enough zinc in the diet can result in a loss of appetite, a decreased
>sense of taste and smell, slow wound healing and skin sores, or a damaged
>immune system. Young men who don't get enough zinc may have poorly developed
>sex organs and slow growth. If a pregnant woman doesn't get enough zinc, her
>babies may have growth retardation. Harmful health effects generally begin
>at levels in the 100 to 250 milligrams a day range. Eating large amounts of
>zinc, even for a short time, can cause stomach cramps, nausea, and vomiting.
>Taken longer, it can cause anaemia, pancreas damage, and lower levels of
>high density lipoprotein cholesterol (the 'good' form of cholesterol).
>Ingesting too much zinc may also interfere with the body's ability to absorb
>and use other essential minerals such as copper and iron. People with
>potentially high exposure to zinc include those who intentionally consume
>large doses of zinc as a dietary supplement, and patients who receive
>chronic treatment with drugs containing zinc salts (such as injectable
>insulin).
>Zinc dust is irritating to the eyes, nose, and throat, and solid zinc
>compounds are irritating to the skin and eyes. Breathing large amounts of
>zinc dust can cause a cough with phlegm. Inhaling zinc dust or fumes can
>cause 'metal fume fever' which affects the lungs and body temperature. Long
>term effects of breathing high levels of zinc are unknown. Inhalation of
>zinc oxide fumes is common in occupational exposures and can produce serious
>injury to the respiratory system. Inhalation of zinc chloride fumes (smoke
>bombs) can result in coughing, chest pain, and respiratory tract irritation.
>Other symptoms include blueness of the skin (cyanosis), skin disease
>(dermatosis), skin inflammation (dermatitis), skin burns, ulceration of
>nasal passages, deficiency of calcium in the blood (hypocalcaemia), presence
>of blood traces in the urine (microhematuria), and pneumonitis. The fumes
>also affect eyes. Death can result from acute high dose inhalation of zinc
>chloride smoke. Zinc sulfate is astringent and corrosive to skin, and can
>cause dermatitis, boils, conjunctivitis, gastrointestinal disturbances,
>vomiting, cramps, renal damage, and inflammation of the pancreas through
>blood (haemorrhagic pancreatitis). Zinc sulfide is astringent and corrosive
>to skin, and if ingested with a high gastric acidity may decompose to
>hydrogen sulfide in the stomach, with subsequent systemic poisoning. In
>large doses, it can cause vomiting and diarrhoea.
>
>
>Some zinc compounds are very harmful not because of zinc but because of
>other harmful constituents that make up the compounds. Examples include:
> a.. zinc chromate (potential carcinogen, with many of the same health
>effects as chromium and chromates, including ulceration of the nasal septum,
>chronic rhinitis, respiratory irritations, conjunctivitis, skin ulcers,
>dizziness, intense thirst, abdominal pain, vomiting, shock, absence of urine
>(anuria), pharyngitis, dermatitis with fluid effusion (oedema) and
>ulceration, and death due to retention of urinary constituents (uraemia));
> b.. zinc cyanide (with many of the same health effects as cyanide,
>including nausea, vomiting, confusion, vertigo, increased intake and depth
>of respiration (hyperpnoea), breathing difficulties (dyspnoea), headache,
>dizziness, dermatitis, weak and irregular pulse, blindness, damage to optic
>nerves and retina, sudden loss of consciousness, convulsions, and death from
>respiratory arrest);
> c.. zinc fluoride (with many of the same health effects as fluoride,
>including severe gastritis, abdominal pain, vomiting, diarrhoea, shock,
>blueness of the skin (cyanosis), weak pulse, low blood pressure, drowsiness,
>liver injury, hyperactive reflexes, increase in radiographic density of
>bones (eventually causing anatomical abnormalities), and death from shock);
>and
> d.. zinc phosphide (may evolve phosphine in the presence of moisture,
>which can cause intense nausea, abdominal pain, chills, tightness in the
>chest, breathing difficulties (dyspnoea), cough, shock from toxic heart
>muscle inflammation (myocarditis), jaundice from liver necrosis, severe
>gastrointestinal irritation, and fatal pulmonary oedema (fluid in the
>lungs)).
>Taken from the page
>http://www.npi.gov.au/database/substance-info/profiles/87.html
>
>Greg Manning
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
>
>
>
>

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Tue Dec 7 23:32:41 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:32:41 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <00b001c4dcde$b2e2e080$1900a8c0@a31server>
References: <00b001c4dcde$b2e2e080$1900a8c0@a31server>
Message-ID: <41B691F9.2090607@legacyfound.org>

Ok for all the scientists out there, seems we are all beating our heads
against a wall by trying to compete with galvanised steel: What about
end running the problem by bringing the mountain to mohammed.
Cor-ten (forgive my ignorance of the actual spelling) steel was a very
clever development the construction industry. It was designed to
create a protective oxide layer-- a sort of controlled rust which
protected it from further degradation.
How was it made and could that process be applied in a practical (3rd
world capital, skill and resource accessible) manner, to plain sheet
steel for chimneys ?
Robin hood

a31ford wrote:

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Wed Dec 8 00:46:22 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 02:46:22 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons
References: <00a701c4dcbe$290e5a80$1900a8c0@a31server>
Message-ID: <006901c4dcf2$666778b0$2f9a0a40@kevin>

Dear Greg

"ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the lethal
by-products of heating it.."

I had not heard this previously. What Government Agency in Canada prohibits it?

Thanks.

Kevin

----- Original Message -----
From: a31ford
To: STOVES (E-mail)
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:37 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons

One question about all this "coatings over galvanized"

In the world of heat producing appliances, who is using galvanized parts
anyhow ? The reason I'm asking is that when galvanized product is heated, it
gives off 2 things....

1) white "straw" the filament bonds of the actual process of zinc
application breaking down in the "oxide style method" in a VERY short period
of time.

Of course, any structure near the chimney must be protected in some method,
so the items named above, are required to be used in some sense of order to
protect the structure.

ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the lethal
by-products of heating it..

Greg Manning,
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Dec 8 06:05:01 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:05:01 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE:Coatings, and Poisons
Message-ID: <007601c4dd1e$6095bd80$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Greg

Many thanks for this contribution. I have witnessed both conditions when
welding galvanised pipe: the white straw floating around and the higher
temperature when (somehow) arsenic gas is formed.

I have a questions about the zinc oxide 'fumes'. I expect that this is
found to be the major zinc component in the air at a galvanising plant. The
amount allowed seems to be very high. I conclude from that it is not very
toxic compared with other manifestations of the zinc and that being in the
galvanising business is not a serious or unsolvable health problem.

Zinc chromate is used here as a paint applied to galvanised sheet roofing to
increase its life. It appears that tossing such old roofing material onto a
fire is quite hazardous.

In practise I have seen the 'white straw' from a fire but I think the
temperatures are not high enough to get much into the 800 C range which
seems to make it a reasonably safe materials to have lying around.

I noticed that stainless steel was not specifically mentioned in your list
of chimney materials. Is that what the insulated chimneys are made from?

Thanks
Crispin

----- Original Message -----
From: "a31ford" <a31ford at inetlink.ca>
To: "'John G Johnston III'" <koimnjj at minn.net>; "STOVES (E-mail)"
<STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 6:26 AM
Subject: RE: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons

John

re: your questions about my item #2

Google search "Burning Zinc"

"Philosophers' wool, or nix alba (white snow) was zinc oxide made by burning
zinc in air."
from the page:
http://www.chemsoc.org/viselements/pages/alchemist/alc_zinc.html

[snip]

From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Dec 8 06:05:10 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 14:05:10 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Intro to report on heat transfer
Message-ID: <007701c4dd1e$61ed1020$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Dean and Dale and Denizens of the Stovers Group

I love it when we get a good quality, basic design guideline that ordinary
folks can use as a test of their device. This is a wonder piece of work.

I think I have to place it in the category of Dr Bernhard Scheffler's 1982
mathematical proof that you get the most total heating from a solar water
heater by passing the volume of the tank through the collector exactly once
during the heating cycle.

This scientific demonstration that heat transfer efficiency is directly
linked to gas exit temperature is a simple, demonstrable and easily checked
in the field. It is intuitive to boot and easily explained to students.

It is a wonderful example of the virtuous work done for the benefit of the
public by this internet group.

Sincerely
Crispin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:04 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Intro to report on heat transfer

http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

Introduction to Dr. Andreatta's report on heat transfer found above:

From robdeutsch at online.com.kh Tue Dec 7 21:08:12 2004
From: robdeutsch at online.com.kh (Robert Deutsch)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:08:12 +0700
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc pipes
References: <007701c4dd1e$61ed1020$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <004101c4dcd3$98dbd350$8d8b3442@SFKC.GOV.KH>

Dear Pipers,

About zinc, just thought I would add my personal experience as a young
teenager (many years ago) playing in my dad's workshop one night. I was
melting brass and copper rods with the torch trying to make some blobby kind
of jewelry. I noted the white wispy zinc "straw" floating up from the work,
and the shop soon filling up with smoke. I worked for an hour or two like
that. Later that night I woke up with a knot in my chest and gasping for
breath. I always assumed that the zinc in the brass was the problem. Now
I'm always cautious when welding galvanized material to make sure there is
adequate ventilation.

BTW, the double walled insulated wood stove pipes (metalbestos) used in USA
where pipe runs go through the roof has stainless interior and exterior
steel pipes. I have used single wall galvanized pipe (made for air duct
work actually) for the upper sections of a pipe run where the temperatures
are much reduced. For a smoke hood I'm sure this would be OK as is out of
the high temp zone. Rolled corrugated roofing sheets would seem to be the
most available, cheapest and easiest pipe material in most rural communities
in the developing world.... maybe a meter of clay pipe topped with rolled
roofing sheet is a good solution.

Best regards,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin" <crispin at newdawn.sz>
To: "Stoves List" <>; "Rina King" <rking at infodoor.co.za>; "Boris Kamstra"
<boriskamstra at iafrica.com>; "David Hancock" <david.hancock at gtz.de>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:05 PM
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Intro to report on heat transfer

> Dear Dean and Dale and Denizens of the Stovers Group
>
> I love it when we get a good quality, basic design guideline that ordinary
> folks can use as a test of their device. This is a wonder piece of work.
>
> I think I have to place it in the category of Dr Bernhard Scheffler's 1982
> mathematical proof that you get the most total heating from a solar water
> heater by passing the volume of the tank through the collector exactly
once
> during the heating cycle.
>
> This scientific demonstration that heat transfer efficiency is directly
> linked to gas exit temperature is a simple, demonstrable and easily
checked
> in the field. It is intuitive to boot and easily explained to students.
>
> It is a wonderful example of the virtuous work done for the benefit of the
> public by this internet group.
>
> Sincerely
> Crispin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
> To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:04 PM
> Subject: [Stoves] Intro to report on heat transfer
>
>
> http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
> Introduction to Dr. Andreatta's report on heat transfer found above:
>
> A series of about 100 tests was conducted relative to increasing the heat
> transfer efficiency of cook stoves. Almost all tests were done using a
> simulated wood fire with natural gas as the fuel, burned in a low velocity
> fully non-premixed manner. The flame was similar to a wood fire, except
> that the firepower could be precisely controlled and measured. A new
> technique was also developed for data reduction, using easily measured
> variables to estimate the mass flow rate through the stove, average gas
> temperature coming up through the riser, air-fuel ratio, and log-mean
> temperature difference at the pot.
>
> The main finding was that the most important variable by far in
determining
> the heat transfer to the pot is the temperature of the gases coming up
> through the riser. Within a fairly narrow band of scatter, the heat
> transfer to the pot is a linear function of this temperature. The
corollary
> to this finding is that changes to the stove are generally ineffective,
> except in how they affect the riser temperature. For example, the common
> belief is that tight skirts and tight flow passages increase heat transfer
> by forcing hot air against the sides of the pot. My conclusion is that
this
> is mostly false, that skirts and tight passages may be helpful, but mostly
> because they choke off the excess air flowing through the riser and keep
the
> average riser temperature higher.
>
> To get high efficiency one must limit the excess air, however, too little
> excess air leads to sooting and high pollution, hence it appears that the
> air-fuel ratio needs to be controlled within a tight band to give good
> efficiency without high pollution.
>
> Some work was done measuring temperature distributions in the gas around
the
> pot. The temperatures and temperature gradients are much higher on the
> bottom of the pot than on the sides. Some studies were also made of
> unconfined flames simulating a 3-stone fire. While unconfined flames can
> achieve very high efficiency, the conditions which produce high efficiency
> tend to be the conditions that produce a lot of soot.
>
> A number of schemes were tried for increasing the heat transfer regardless
> of the combustion conditions. None of these techniques were successful,
but
> are reviewed. Tests were performed on a range of pot sizes. Bigger pots
> lead to increased efficiency; however the gains are not large.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Wed Dec 8 12:38:58 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:38:58 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] RE:Coatings, and Poisons
In-Reply-To: <007601c4dd1e$6095bd80$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <00ba01c4dd55$2e934aa0$1900a8c0@a31server>

Dear Crispin and all...

I would say, here in Canada, just about all known "insulated chimneys" of
recent manufacture (less than 8 years old) are all, made of some form of
stainless, from inconnell to 316 and 304 stainless, however, most are of a
very low grade of stainless (barely be able to be called stainless) and will
only marginally withstand one chimney fire (not that I would ever want one
or more chimney fires :)

BUT, there is one company that make a superb product of real 304SS but it is
quite costly.
I will NOT speak "names" simply because I'm not here to support any
manufacturer.

I should of clarified the "insulated units" when I spoke of chimney's and
styles in an earlier post, sorry about that.

Quote of the day.....

One gains a measure of their own intelligence when they admit to their
own.... how do you spell "Stupidity"....... :)

Greg Manning,
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Crispin
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 6:05 AM
To: Stoves List
Subject: [Stoves] RE:Coatings, and Poisons

Dear Greg

Many thanks for this contribution. I have witnessed both conditions when
welding galvanised pipe: the white straw floating around and the higher
temperature when (somehow) arsenic gas is formed.

Zinc chromate is used here as a paint applied to galvanised sheet roofing to
increase its life. It appears that tossing such old roofing material onto a
fire is quite hazardous.

I noticed that stainless steel was not specifically mentioned in your list
of chimney materials. Is that what the insulated chimneys are made from?

Thanks
Crispin

John

re: your questions about my item #2

Google search "Burning Zinc"

"Philosophers' wool, or nix alba (white snow) was zinc oxide made by burning
zinc in air."
from the page:
http://www.chemsoc.org/viselements/pages/alchemist/alc_zinc.html

[snip]

From kgoyer at comcast.net Wed Dec 8 15:22:20 2004
From: kgoyer at comcast.net (ken goyer)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 13:22:20 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <41B6916F.9050800@legacyfound.org>
References: <00b001c4dcde$b2e2e080$1900a8c0@a31server>
<41B6916F.9050800@legacyfound.org>
Message-ID: <41B7708C.2050105@comcast.net>

Dear friends, Continuing with this thread, one other thing to think
about... In the past, and maybe still, wood stove flue pipes in Oregon
(for wood heating stoves) were often blued. Like in blueing a gun
barrel. I know that this is a chemical treatment to the steel but I
don't know much more about it other than it prevents oxidation of the
steel. Maybe someone else has more information about blueing. Regards, Ken

Richard Stanley wrote:

> Ok for all the scientists out there, what about bginging the mountain
> to mohammed. Corten steel was a very clever development the
> construction industry. It was designed to create a protective oxide
> layer-- a sort of controlled rust which protected it from further
> degradation. How was it made: could that process be applied in a
> practical (3rd world resource accessible) manner, to plain sheet steel
> for chimneys ?
> Robin hood
>
>
>> ____________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From tombreed at comcast.net Wed Dec 8 16:42:41 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (tombreed at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 22:42:41 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Intro to report on heat transfer
Message-ID: <120820042242.2276.41B7836100009F8C000008E422007614380B0A0A9D0D03019B@comcast.net>

Dear Dean and All:

Veryinteresting and interesting conclusions. I have long thought that the "skirted" stove demanded too much of the cook and her/his pot selection.

I also believe that any flames that rise above the level of the pot "looking" for combustion air will be quenched by the pot and produce soot rather than heat.

For this reason among others our gasifier stove provides the needed secondary combustion air internally.

One experiment is worth a thousand rationalizations.

Happy Holidays from Barre in the middle of Massachusetts...

TOM REED

> http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
> Introduction to Dr. Andreatta's report on heat transfer found above:
>
> A series of about 100 tests was conducted relative to increasing the heat
> transfer efficiency of cook stoves. Almost all tests were done using a
> simulated wood fire with natural gas as the fuel, burned in a low velocity
> fully non-premixed manner. The flame was similar to a wood fire, except
> that the firepower could be precisely controlled and measured. A new
> technique was also developed for data reduction, using easily measured
> variables to estimate the mass flow rate through the stove, average gas
> temperature coming up through the riser, air-fuel ratio, and log-mean
> temperature difference at the pot.
>
> The main finding was that the most important variable by far in determining
> the heat transfer to the pot is the temperature of the gases coming up
> through the riser. Within a fairly narrow band of scatter, the heat
> transfer to the pot is a linear function of this temperature. The corollary
> to this finding is that changes to the stove are generally ineffective,
> except in how they affect the riser temperature. For example, the common
> belief is that tight skirts and tight flow passages increase heat transfer
> by forcing hot air against the sides of the pot. My conclusion is that this
> is mostly false, that skirts and tight passages may be helpful, but mostly
> because they choke off the excess air flowing through the riser and keep the
> average riser temperature higher.
>
> To get high efficiency one must limit the excess air, however, too little
> excess air leads to sooting and high pollution, hence it appears that the
> air-fuel ratio needs to be controlled within a tight band to give good
> efficiency without high pollution.
>
> Some work was done measuring temperature distributions in the gas around the
> pot. The temperatures and temperature gradients are much higher on the
> bottom of the pot than on the sides. Some studies were also made of
> unconfined flames simulating a 3-stone fire. While unconfined flames can
> achieve very high efficiency, the conditions which produce high efficiency
> tend to be the conditions that produce a lot of soot.
>
> A number of schemes were tried for increasing the heat transfer regardless
> of the combustion conditions. None of these techniques were successful, but
> are reviewed. Tests were performed on a range of pot sizes. Bigger pots
> lead to increased efficiency; however the gains are not large.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Wed Dec 8 18:44:47 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 18:44:47 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons
In-Reply-To: <006901c4dcf2$666778b0$2f9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <00bd01c4dd88$48e38ea0$1900a8c0@a31server>

Dear Kevin and all...

In reply to Kevin's question, I should note, ( this is a "common rule" in my
neck of the woods, but a "true rule" when installing a wood burning
appliance.)

Or more simply put, who would want to risk the thought of poisoning a family
because of galv. pipe... (isn't there something about moving to copper or
plastic for potable water systems as well, due to the same issues ??? ) or
is that simply because no one understands "dielectric unions" ?? and
electrolysis??

See related Items below.

Item H in section #4 of http://www.newmacfurnaces.com/right/wood.html
is a given example

h. Flue Pipe ? The conduit ( piping) connecting the smoke pipe (or flue
collar) of the furnace to the chimney breech must be constructed of steel
with a melting point no less than 1100 C. Galvanized flue pipe can not be
used.

another one at this site:
http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=103&PgId=608

second last point under "Installing flue pipes" section.

Don't use galvanized flue pipes ? the coatings vaporize at high temperatures
and release dangerous gases. Use black-painted flue pipes.

And that last one is from the wood heating section, of the Government of
Canada !

Remember , we are in the "Stoves" section not high efficiency furnaces....
") Cheers!

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:46 AM
To: a31ford; STOVES (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons

Dear Greg

"ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the
lethal
by-products of heating it.."

I had not heard this previously. What Government Agency in Canada
prohibits it?

Thanks.

Kevin

----- Original Message -----
From: a31ford
To: STOVES (E-mail)
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:37 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons

One question about all this "coatings over galvanized"

In the world of heat producing appliances, who is using galvanized parts
anyhow ? The reason I'm asking is that when galvanized product is
heated, it
gives off 2 things....

1) white "straw" the filament bonds of the actual process of zinc
application breaking down in the "oxide style method" in a VERY short
period
of time.

2) Deadly "Arsenic" gas, depending on the amount of surface area brought
above the "bond breaking temp". If simply welding a seam, (very small
area)
the person welding can be easy overcome from the small amount of fumes
created from this poison.

In Canada, any chimney sections can be any of 4 things, plain "black
pipe"
(cold rolled steel 22 or 24 gauge, painted black), Porcelain covered
steel
(like I spoke of in one of the early messages on this matter), Insulated
Chimney (inner/outer sections that safeguard on chimney fires) OR
Refractory flue.

Of course, any structure near the chimney must be protected in some
method,
so the items named above, are required to be used in some sense of order
to
protect the structure.

ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the
lethal
by-products of heating it..

Greg Manning,
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

From snkm at btl.net Wed Dec 8 19:54:26 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 19:54:26 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041208194814.009229e0@pop.btl.net>

"Black-Iron" pipe is when iron is protected by a coating of magnetic oxide
of iron -- created when super heated steam impinges on iron.

This from the top of my head -- based on ancient memories.

but it probably would slove most of the problem in this discussion --

Look it up.

The magnetic oxide of iron makes a very stable and protective coating.

Years ago -- black iron pipe was a standard item. Turn of the last century
stuff.

Believe it is 1200 Deg F -- then steam reacts with iron -- producing black
iron magnetic oxide and H2.

Peter

At 06:44 PM 12/8/2004 -0600, a31ford wrote:
>Dear Kevin and all...
>
>In reply to Kevin's question, I should note, ( this is a "common rule" in my
>neck of the woods, but a "true rule" when installing a wood burning
>appliance.)
>
>Or more simply put, who would want to risk the thought of poisoning a family
>because of galv. pipe... (isn't there something about moving to copper or
>plastic for potable water systems as well, due to the same issues ??? ) or
>is that simply because no one understands "dielectric unions" ?? and
>electrolysis??
>
>See related Items below.
>
>Item H in section #4 of http://www.newmacfurnaces.com/right/wood.html
>is a given example
>
>h. Flue Pipe ? The conduit ( piping) connecting the smoke pipe (or flue
>collar) of the furnace to the chimney breech must be constructed of steel
>with a melting point no less than 1100 C. Galvanized flue pipe can not be
>used.
>
>
>another one at this site:
>http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=103&PgId=608
>
>second last point under "Installing flue pipes" section.
>
>Don't use galvanized flue pipes ? the coatings vaporize at high temperatures
>and release dangerous gases. Use black-painted flue pipes.
>
>And that last one is from the wood heating section, of the Government of
>Canada !
>
>
>Remember , we are in the "Stoves" section not high efficiency furnaces....
>") Cheers!
>
>Greg
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net]
>Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:46 AM
>To: a31ford; STOVES (E-mail)
>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons
>
>
> Dear Greg
>
> "ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the
>lethal
> by-products of heating it.."
>
> I had not heard this previously. What Government Agency in Canada
>prohibits it?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Kevin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: a31ford
> To: STOVES (E-mail)
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:37 PM
> Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons
>
>
>
> One question about all this "coatings over galvanized"
>
> In the world of heat producing appliances, who is using galvanized parts
> anyhow ? The reason I'm asking is that when galvanized product is
>heated, it
> gives off 2 things....
>
> 1) white "straw" the filament bonds of the actual process of zinc
> application breaking down in the "oxide style method" in a VERY short
>period
> of time.
>
> 2) Deadly "Arsenic" gas, depending on the amount of surface area brought
> above the "bond breaking temp". If simply welding a seam, (very small
>area)
> the person welding can be easy overcome from the small amount of fumes
> created from this poison.
>
> In Canada, any chimney sections can be any of 4 things, plain "black
>pipe"
> (cold rolled steel 22 or 24 gauge, painted black), Porcelain covered
>steel
> (like I spoke of in one of the early messages on this matter), Insulated
> Chimney (inner/outer sections that safeguard on chimney fires) OR
> Refractory flue.
>
> Of course, any structure near the chimney must be protected in some
>method,
> so the items named above, are required to be used in some sense of order
>to
> protect the structure.
>
> ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the
>lethal
> by-products of heating it..
>
> Greg Manning,
> Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>

From ken at basterfield.com Thu Dec 9 02:08:50 2004
From: ken at basterfield.com (Ken Basterfield)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:08:50 -0000
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <41B7708C.2050105@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002b01c4ddc6$50e2cb00$6702a8c0@KenThinkPad>

Dear All,
I always thought that 'blue-ing' was produced by heat treating. When
medium carbon steel is hardened by quenching from a red heat, it is
'tempered' by reheating to a much lower temperature that, in addition to
other important things, causes the surface to oxidize, initially to a
straw colour and then on further heating to a blue colour. The degree of
temper is determined by the temper colour. Chisels are tempered to blue
at the tip to stop the hardened edge from brittle shattering when used.
The blueing certainly does give protection to corrosion.
Sincerely
Ken

I've stopped 20,011 spam messages. You can too!
One month FREE spam protection at
http://www.cloudmark.com/spamnetsig/?rc=f4n4hl

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of ken goyer
Sent: 08 December 2004 21:22
To: STOVES (E-mail); ethos
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)

Richard Stanley wrote:

> for chimneys ?
> Robin hood
>
>
>> ____________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Dec 9 09:32:06 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:32:06 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: GNU General Public License for stove designs
Message-ID: <013b01c4de04$bca85380$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Paraffin Stovers

Further to the introduction of the FSP stove I can report that the first
1000 are under construction on 10 places.

Another 140 kits are going to Bloemfontein today. There was initial caution
by the ten trainees but after a week of making stoves together they got very
positive about this stove and manufacturing method.

I took enough parts to Lubumbashi but no one there uses paraffin to cook
with. It is routinely used for (surprise) lighting charcoal fires.

There is a lot of charcoal used on dreadful little square flat bottomed
sheet metal stoves. Huge amounts of charcoal are traded each day in the
city. There is almost no other fuel used. It is widely known that they
produces huge amounts of CO and they are not generally taken indoors.

Regards
Crispin

From mailthompson at yahoo.com Thu Dec 9 10:55:27 2004
From: mailthompson at yahoo.com (Kyle Thompson)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:55:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Skirts
In-Reply-To: <20041209020227.D87F4296D0@ns2.misteam.net>
Message-ID: <20041209165527.63703.qmail@web61001.mail.yahoo.com>

Dear Tom,

I'm still "hung up" on skirted+cozy pots for camping
(backpacking, canoing), (not necessarily for everyday
cooking in third world countries), especially using
them in cooler climates, winter camping, or when there
is excess wind. Perhaps I should make a distinction
between a wind screen, cozy, and skirt. At this time
I'm still trying to figure out what works in different
conditions.

I am trying to combine the three, because I've found
that sometimes I burn the cozy off the sides of the
pot. :) It is a matter of flame control via air
control, I understand that, but in life, things
happen. So I'm still working on a skirt with a cozy
over the outside. The skirt protects the cozy from
direct flame (when my wife is cooking) and the cozy
keeps the skirt from re-radiating heat to the
environment.) I also insulate the lid of the pot and
have found that extremely easy to do, making the sides
of the cozy drape slightly over the pot. (Yes, it get
dirty, that is why I want to experiment with
separating the pot and the skirt/cozy.)

Please keep in mind some of my cozy cooking ideas are
for cooking over propane, petrol, or kerosene stove
while camping. When one humps several liters of
petrol over canoe portages, every ounce counts, and if
one can reduce fuel carried in half, that means more
food can be carried for an extended camping/canoing
trip, or simply a more pleasurable light weight trip.
In some situations wood/biomass fuel collection
on-sight is not an option for legal or ethical
reasons.

This summer I used a pot cozy coupled with a
windscreen that saved fuel and reduced cooking time in
a cross wind. When camping on small islands I've
often found it hard to find a place to cook "out of
the wind" other than a tent, which I prefer not to. I
know, don't camp on small islands. Often the wind
seems to change direction faster than the stove wind
screen can be changed.

A wood-gas stove coupled with a pot cozy can save
quite a bit of fuel when camping. It has the
advantage of taking the pot off the stove, placing the
pot on a insulated material, and the cozy-pot
combination can continue to cook or just keep the food
warm while other food is cooked. (Cozy cooking versus
Haybox.)

For camping this is especially nice when making
coffee, tea, or water. Boiling 2 liters of water or
coffee, then setting it aside while cooking the rest
of the meal.

I've been making 1 meter natural draft wood-gas stoves
for camping. One disadvantage of these is that it
puts the pot up in the air, for the wind to pull heat
from. The skirt/cozy combo works nicely with this
stove.

I believe MSR makes a "heat exchanger" and sells it
with a backpacking cook set. I do not own one, but it
looks as though the heat exchanger may actually take
heat away from the pot in a cross wind? A little
insulation around the heat exchanger should at least
keep this from happening.

The wood-gas stove shows real promise for camping, and
doing more than just "keeping the coffee warm" as one
well known outdoor author uses his wood stove for.

One "bench mark" of mine is to be able to cook fish in
oil consistently over wood-gas. The next is to get
comfortable enough with the stove to use it
exclusively when camping and not take (or regret not
taking) any petrol.

Oh yes, rereading your post, your quote..
>One experiment is worth a thousand rationalizations.>

I thought we coined that phrase in karate. "One punch
is worth a thousand rationalizations." Actually, I
heard it another way, but I won't post that.

Thanks for all of the inspiration and insight into
stoves.

Kyle

>Dear Dean and All:

>Very interesting and interesting conclusions. I
have >long thought
>that the "skirted" stove demanded too much of the
cook >and her/his pot
>selection.

>I also believe that any flames that rise above
the >level of the
>pot "looking" for combustion air will be quenched
by >the pot and

>produce soot rather than heat.

>For this reason among others our gasifier stove
>provides the needed
>secondary combustion air internally.

>One experiment is worth a thousand rationalizations.

>Happy Holidays from Barre in the middle of
>Massachusetts...

>TOM REED

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Wed Dec 8 21:36:46 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:36:46 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons
References: <00bd01c4dd88$48e38ea0$1900a8c0@a31server>
Message-ID: <01b701c4dda1$9411bc80$609a0a40@kevin>

Dear Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: a31ford
To: STOVES (E-mail)
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons

Dear Kevin and all...

In reply to Kevin's question, I should note, ( this is a "common rule" in my
neck of the woods, but a "true rule" when installing a wood burning
appliance.)

Or more simply put, who would want to risk the thought of poisoning a family
because of galv. pipe...

You are assuming there is a risk, when there isn't necessarily one. I feel your concerns are based on welding or cutting galvanized iron. Normal galvanized stove pipes last many years, and invariably fail from the inside, not by boiling zinc off their exterior surfaces into the living space.

(isn't there something about moving to copper or
plastic for potable water systems as well, due to the same issues ??? ) or
is that simply because no one understands "dielectric unions" ?? and
electrolysis??

K: PEX piping for water systems is very much simpler and cheaper to install. Copper water piping is not a health hazard.

See related Items below.

Item H in section #4 of http://www.newmacfurnaces.com/right/wood.html
is a given example

h. Flue Pipe - The conduit ( piping) connecting the smoke pipe (or flue
collar) of the furnace to the chimney breech must be constructed of steel
with a melting point no less than 1100 C. Galvanized flue pipe can not be
used.

K: This would appear to be one dreadful admission on the part of Newmac: their stove and combustion systems appear to be such that they are prone to high stack temperatures and flue fires. Certainly, steel of a nature that it can resist a 1100 F temperature should be used if a flue fire is likely. But what if I used a 29 gage black iron flue pipe or a 18 gage galvanized pipe? The 18 gage flue pipe would give far greater protection against a flue fire.

another one at this site:
http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=103&PgId=608

second last point under "Installing flue pipes" section.

Don't use galvanized flue pipes - the coatings vaporize at high temperatures
and release dangerous gases. Use black-painted flue pipes.

And that last one is from the wood heating section, of the Government of
Canada !

K: OK... if there is a danger of flue fires, then an adequately solid flue pipe material should be used. There are two issues here... 1: Protection against flue fires, and 2: Poisoning from zinc fume evolution from galvanized flue pipe. Thick galvanized flue pipe will give more protection from a flue fire than will thin "black iron."
The poisoning from zinc is another issue entirely. Neither of the above references deal with that issue... their only concern is safety from flue fires.

Other things to consider are:
1: In teh event of overheating, the quantity of zinc evolved will be small
2: It will likely be as a metal fume or 'blue zinc", rather than as an oxide that would result from welding or torch cutting.
3: Chances are that teh ventillation in a woodburning site will be adequate to eliminate most of any zinc fume present

While there may, or may not be a case against galvanized iron as a source of poison, I don't see enough indication yet to feel that teh concern is serious.

Am I missing something?

Kevin

Remember , we are in the "Stoves" section not high efficiency furnaces....
") Cheers!

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 12:46 AM
To: a31ford; STOVES (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons

Dear Greg

"ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the
lethal
by-products of heating it.."

I had not heard this previously. What Government Agency in Canada
prohibits it?

Thanks.

Kevin

----- Original Message -----
From: a31ford
To: STOVES (E-mail)
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:37 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Coatings, and Poisons

One question about all this "coatings over galvanized"

In the world of heat producing appliances, who is using galvanized parts
anyhow ? The reason I'm asking is that when galvanized product is
heated, it
gives off 2 things....

1) white "straw" the filament bonds of the actual process of zinc
application breaking down in the "oxide style method" in a VERY short
period
of time.

2) Deadly "Arsenic" gas, depending on the amount of surface area brought
above the "bond breaking temp". If simply welding a seam, (very small
area)
the person welding can be easy overcome from the small amount of fumes
created from this poison.

In Canada, any chimney sections can be any of 4 things, plain "black
pipe"
(cold rolled steel 22 or 24 gauge, painted black), Porcelain covered
steel
(like I spoke of in one of the early messages on this matter), Insulated
Chimney (inner/outer sections that safeguard on chimney fires) OR
Refractory flue.

Of course, any structure near the chimney must be protected in some
method,
so the items named above, are required to be used in some sense of order
to
protect the structure.

ANY galvanized product is strictly prohibited, simply because of the
lethal
by-products of heating it..

Greg Manning,
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

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From woldfamily at gmail.com Thu Dec 9 00:08:35 2004
From: woldfamily at gmail.com (WG9)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 00:08:35 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc Cyanide antidote and Third World Flues...
In-Reply-To: <20041209020227.D87F4296D0@ns2.misteam.net>
References: <20041209020227.D87F4296D0@ns2.misteam.net>
Message-ID: <8cb042a5041208220870ea4e3d@mail.gmail.com>

The information on the Zinc Cyanide is totally correct...and it can be
deadly from what I understand.. it can be overcome in two ways that I
know of..the first being the aforementioned 'good ventilation' I had
to locate a 100,000 cfm fan overnight for an Engineer on a building
project I was clerking.. I found it and had it delivered.. the other
engineer.. said he would have just bought the welders a case of milk
to drink.. apparently the antidote to Zinc Cyanide is in Milk....I
assume the calcium but I do not specifically remember.. the engineer's
wife was an ER nurse though so I am sure he had it right.. personally
I would rather not breathe the stuff though for all the 'unknown'
reasons and have welded on galvanized since.. I stay clear of the
fumes and have seen a couple guys get nauseous because they turned the
fans to keep themselves cool instead of to blow the smoke away!
On Third world smoke stacks or chimneys I would think that clay bricks
or adobe brick chimneys would be a better solution than any metal you
could lay your hands on ...for one if thick enough it will help shield
the users from the heat in hot weather..and if kept warm for a long
enough time in cool weather will radiate that heat over a long period
as well... sometimes a more modern solution ..like a metal chimney...
is a less desirable solution than a solution from days gone by.. IMHO
anyway...
...fwiw....
WG9

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Thu Dec 9 13:31:33 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 21:31:33 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Skirts
In-Reply-To: <20041209165527.63703.qmail@web61001.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20041209165527.63703.qmail@web61001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <41B8A815.9000008@legacyfound.org>

Kyle,

With the island / campstove issue, we are all worried about skirts and
possible emissions in exchange for greater heat to the pot. Why not dig
a pit to place the stove to slightly below grade such that the wind does
not get to the stove and part of the pot, save a small trench for air feed.

Any takers on replicating the making of Corten steel for chimneys out
there ?

Richard Stanley

>
>

From phoenix98604 at earthlink.net Thu Dec 9 14:18:03 2004
From: phoenix98604 at earthlink.net (Art Krenzel)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:18:03 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
References: <002b01c4ddc6$50e2cb00$6702a8c0@KenThinkPad>
Message-ID: <016001c4de2c$30bf7ec0$44baf204@7k6rv21>

Ken,

There is a form of "cold blue-ing" which uses deposition chemistry to
protect the surface of the metals from corrosion. It is a modified
phosphatizing process with a colorant to make the end product compare
visually with the heat treated system. We used it to protect older gun
barrels from rusting when we were younger. It worked well for that
application. However, phosphatizing will not stand up to high temperatures
such as found in chimneys for any great length of time. It volatizes,
leaving the surface of the metal open to oxidation.

Art Krenzel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Basterfield" <ken at basterfield.com>
To: "'ken goyer'" <kgoyer at comcast.net>; "'STOVES (E-mail)'"
<STOVES at listserv.repp.org>; "'ethos'" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 12:08 AM
Subject: RE: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)

> Dear All,
> I always thought that 'blue-ing' was produced by heat treating. When
> medium carbon steel is hardened by quenching from a red heat, it is
> 'tempered' by reheating to a much lower temperature that, in addition to
> other important things, causes the surface to oxidize, initially to a
> straw colour and then on further heating to a blue colour. The degree of
> temper is determined by the temper colour. Chisels are tempered to blue
> at the tip to stop the hardened edge from brittle shattering when used.
> The blueing certainly does give protection to corrosion.
> Sincerely
> Ken
>
>
>
> I've stopped 20,011 spam messages. You can too!
> One month FREE spam protection at
> http://www.cloudmark.com/spamnetsig/?rc=f4n4hl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of ken goyer
> Sent: 08 December 2004 21:22
> To: STOVES (E-mail); ethos
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
>
> Dear friends, Continuing with this thread, one other thing to think
> about... In the past, and maybe still, wood stove flue pipes in Oregon
> (for wood heating stoves) were often blued. Like in blueing a gun
> barrel. I know that this is a chemical treatment to the steel but I
> don't know much more about it other than it prevents oxidation of the
> steel. Maybe someone else has more information about blueing. Regards,
> Ken
>
> Richard Stanley wrote:
>
>> Ok for all the scientists out there, what about bginging the mountain
>> to mohammed. Corten steel was a very clever development the
>> construction industry. It was designed to create a protective oxide
>> layer-- a sort of controlled rust which protected it from further
>> degradation. How was it made: could that process be applied in a
>> practical (3rd world resource accessible) manner, to plain sheet steel
>
>> for chimneys ?
>> Robin hood
>>
>>
>>> ____________________________________
>>> Stoves mailing list
>>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>>> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
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> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>

From snkm at btl.net Thu Dec 9 14:51:20 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 14:51:20 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Black magnetic oxide of iron -- excellent stove pipe
coating
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041209145024.00a00100@pop.btl.net>

Again -- this is an excellent high temperature coating to preserve thin
iron sheet metal -- I wonder -- were the old thin sheet metal stove pipes
were not made in this manner??

Hi-lighting:

3 Fe2O3 + CO = 2 Fe3O4 + C

The whole process only takes about 20 minutes. This leaves a bit of carbon
in the surface, making it very black. The resulting magnetic oxide is
highly corrosion resistant. This is also known as black magnetic oxide (or
just black oxide). You may recall that this was used extensively on hand
tools before chrome plating was popular. It is still used fairly
extensively in industry to apply a cheap and relatively corrosion resistant
surface to steel parts.

**************

If I remember correctly -- this same process was used enrich producer gas
from blast furnaces with extra H2 -- using cast iron grates in the flue
passage and injecting steam.

In that case the iron was more like a catalyst.

I would have to go into my ancient engineering hand books -- this is all
100 year old plus technology!!

Peter -- in Belize

***********************************

Here is full techncial descritpion:

For parts submerged in water, or filled with water (like the cooling jacket
of an engine block), it works more like this:

3 Fe + 4 H2O --> Fe3O4 + 4 H2
The resulting stable oxide Fe3O4 is magnetite (ferrous ferrite or magnetic
iron oxide).

It can also work like this:
3 Fe(OH)2 --> Fe3O4 + 2 H2O + H2

This is ferrous hydroxide producing the same magnetite.

Notice that both of these reactions release (small amounts of) hydrogen
(into the water) when oxygen from the water is incorporated into the rust.
This does not require the presence of free air. It also results in a thin
and generally protective coating. This coating will be constantly breaking
down and re-sealing itself, so it can eventually lead to more extensive
corrosion (and accumulation of caked up crud in the bottom of the engine
block water jacket). This is why you want to add corrosion inhibitors when
running plain water for coolant.

Fe3O4 can also be formed into a MORE protective coating. This is an
industrial process. Do not try this at home. An iron or steel part is
placed in a closed chamber and heated to 1600?F, after which it is blasted
with superheated steam. This results in rapid formation of both red oxide
(Fe2O3) and magnetic oxide (Fe3O4). Carbon monoxide is then introduced to
reduce the red oxide material to magnetic oxide, like this:
3 Fe2O3 + CO = 2 Fe3O4 + C
The whole process only takes about 20 minutes. This leaves a bit of carbon
in the surface, making it very black. The resulting magnetic oxide is
highly corrosion resistant. This is also known as black magnetic oxide (or
just black oxide). You may recall that this was used extensively on hand
tools before chrome plating was popular. It is still used fairly
extensively in industry to apply a cheap and relatively corrosion resistant
surface to steel parts.

The glossy black coating on "Russian Iron" is produced by laying up sheets
of iron with powdered charcoal in between, and the whole mass then being
heated and hammered. This is a lot of work and not very practical with high
labor rates, but it does yield a nice appearance. This is not actually rust
at all, but I mention it because it is similar in appearance to black oxide.

Iron and steel may also be oxide coated by electrolytic means, with the
object to be coated connected as the anode in an alkali solution. This is
primarily for appearance, as for black iron stove parts (hardly worth
mentioning as rust).

Many rust neutralizing paint-on coatings work by chemically converting red
oxide (RUST) into black oxide (if it's not too thick). Then you can paint
over the stable black oxide. That may be one of the key points you like to
know about restoration work.

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Thu Dec 9 18:42:08 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:42:08 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Black magnetic oxide of iron -- excellent stove
pipecoating
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20041209145024.00a00100@pop.btl.net>
Message-ID: <000101c4de51$14a4abf0$1900a8c0@a31server>

Hello All!

I would say the most common "Black Oxide" tools that first come to my mind,
would be the "tap & die set", the actual taps & dies....

Or a Piston Ring Compressor, Impact Sockets, etc.

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Peter Singfield
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:51 PM
To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: [Stoves] Black magnetic oxide of iron -- excellent stove
pipecoating

Again -- this is an excellent high temperature coating to preserve thin
iron sheet metal -- I wonder -- were the old thin sheet metal stove pipes
were not made in this manner??

Hi-lighting:

3 Fe2O3 + CO = 2 Fe3O4 + C

**************

If I remember correctly -- this same process was used enrich producer gas
from blast furnaces with extra H2 -- using cast iron grates in the flue
passage and injecting steam.

In that case the iron was more like a catalyst.

I would have to go into my ancient engineering hand books -- this is all
100 year old plus technology!!

Peter -- in Belize

***********************************

Here is full techncial descritpion:

For parts submerged in water, or filled with water (like the cooling jacket
of an engine block), it works more like this:

3 Fe + 4 H2O --> Fe3O4 + 4 H2
The resulting stable oxide Fe3O4 is magnetite (ferrous ferrite or magnetic
iron oxide).

It can also work like this:
3 Fe(OH)2 --> Fe3O4 + 2 H2O + H2

This is ferrous hydroxide producing the same magnetite.

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Thu Dec 9 18:38:02 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 20:38:02 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc Cyanide antidote and Third World Flues...
References: <20041209020227.D87F4296D0@ns2.misteam.net>
<8cb042a5041208220870ea4e3d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c4de51$7fec5b10$af9a0a40@kevin>

Dear WG

But what has Zinc Cyanide to do with galvanized iron? Zinc Cyanide is used, among other things, as an ingredient in zinc electroplating baths. This has nothing to do with galvanized iron.

Kindest regards,

Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: WG9
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:08 AM
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc Cyanide antidote and Third World Flues...

From dstill at epud.net Thu Dec 9 21:49:04 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 19:49:04 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] FW: First Stove Performance Test Protocol published.
Message-ID: <20041210034905.8C894184@telchar.epud.net>

_____

From: Kirk R. Smith

---------------------
The Household Environment and Health (HEH) Project, funded by the Shell
Foundation, is developing standard protocols for indoor air pollution
measurements and stove performance tests (SPTs). These are all being
field-tested now after two rounds of in-field training and, once revised
according to the experience of the HEH programs in Mexico, Guatemala, and
India, will be "published" on an open access webpage. David Pennise of the
Center for Entrepreneurship in International Health and Development is
responsible for the final drafting. We hope that they will be available
early in 2005.

The first of the SPT protocols, the Water Boiling Test (WBT), we think is
now ready for widespread use. It is available in English and Spanish at

http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/hem/page.asp?id=42

We will send out announcements as the other protocols are published.
Suggestions of networks to post such announcements would be much
appreciated.

Many thanks to the principal authors, Rob Bailis and Dean Still, for their
good work. With cheers and best wishes for the holidays, I remain/k

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof. Kirk R. Smith
Environmental Health Sciences
Maxwell Endowed Chair in Public Health
SPH, 140 Warren
University of California
Berkeley CA 94720-7360
Phone: 510-643-0793 Fax: 510-642-5815
http://ehs.sph.berkeley.edu/krsmith/
Website updated October 2004!
Krksmith at berkeley.edu

Senior Research Fellow
Environment and Health
East-West Center, Honolulu HI

From erin at trmiles.com Fri Dec 10 09:59:12 2004
From: erin at trmiles.com (Erin Miles Rasmussen)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 07:59:12 -0800
Subject: Fw: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
Message-ID: <004a01c4ded1$330d3050$6401a8c0@inventor>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Margaret.Pinnell at notes.udayton.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)

Was the chimney blued before it was used or did it blue as a result of
exposure to high temp during use?

Send me a chimney for failure analysis.

Margaret F. Pinnell, Ph. D.
Assistant Professor
Director of ETHOS
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Dayton
300 College Park
Dayton, Ohio 45469-0210
Phone: 937-229-3464
Mobile: 937-750-6423

ken goyer
<kgoyer at comcast.n
et> To
Sent by: "STOVES (E-mail)"
owner-ethos at vrac. <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>, ethos
iastate.edu <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
cc

12/08/2004 04:22 Subject
PM [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a
Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)

Richard Stanley wrote:

---
To unsubscribe, send email to majormail at vrac.iastate.edu with
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From erin at trmiles.com Fri Dec 10 09:58:53 2004
From: erin at trmiles.com (Erin Miles Rasmussen)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 07:58:53 -0800
Subject: Fw: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
Message-ID: <004901c4ded1$2ddd3760$6401a8c0@inventor>

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Wilmes
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)

Galvanized steel, which is what most of the stove chimneys are made of, is just steel with a zinc coating. So I would say we've already determined that zinc by itself isn't sufficient to protect the chimney.

Jim

----Original Message Follows----
From: Margaret.Pinnell at notes.udayton.edu
To: ken goyer <kgoyer at comcast.net>
CC: ethos <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>, owner-ethos at vrac.iastate.edu, "STOVES (E-mail)" <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Subject: Re: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:16:45 -0500
Was the chimney blued before it was used or did it blue as a result of
exposure to high temp during use?
Send me a chimney for failure analysis.
Margaret F. Pinnell, Ph. D.
Assistant Professor
Director of ETHOS
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Dayton
300 College Park
Dayton, Ohio 45469-0210
Phone: 937-229-3464
Mobile: 937-750-6423
ken goyer
<kgoyer at comcast.n
et> To
Sent by: "STOVES (E-mail)"
owner-ethos at vrac. <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>, ethos
iastate.edu <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
cc
12/08/2004 04:22 Subject
PM [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a
Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
Dear friends, Continuing with this thread, one other thing to think
about... In the past, and maybe still, wood stove flue pipes in Oregon
(for wood heating stoves) were often blued. Like in blueing a gun
barrel. I know that this is a chemical treatment to the steel but I
don't know much more about it other than it prevents oxidation of the
steel. Maybe someone else has more information about blueing. Regards, Ken
Richard Stanley wrote:
> Ok for all the scientists out there, what about bginging the mountain
> to mohammed. Corten steel was a very clever development the
> construction industry. It was designed to create a protective oxide
> layer-- a sort of controlled rust which protected it from further
> degradation. How was it made: could that process be applied in a
> practical (3rd world resource accessible) manner, to plain sheet steel
> for chimneys ?
> Robin hood
>
>
>> ____________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
---
To unsubscribe, send email to majormail at vrac.iastate.edu with
this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
---
---
To unsubscribe, send email to majormail at vrac.iastate.edu with
this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
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From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Fri Dec 10 10:16:37 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:16:37 -0400
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
References: <004901c4ded1$2ddd3760$6401a8c0@inventor>
Message-ID: <00ab01c4ded3$a1cfea80$669a0a40@kevin>

Dear Erin

There are three basic modes of failure for a stove pipe:

1: Rusting from the outside: Zinc (as galvanizing) will definitely reduce failure from this mechanism. Zinc (as electroplated zinc) will help when the pipe is new, but is unlikely to help significantly, because the thickness is relatively very small, and there is no formation of Zn/Fe intermetallic compounds.

2: Acid attack on the inside: Zinc is not likely to help reduce this mechanism.

3: Failure by overheating. Zinc (from electroplating) might help a little, if the overheating occurred when the pipe was new. Under the right conditions, the electroplated zinc can diffuse into the steel surface to form the Zn/Fe intermetallic compounds, which I am guessing would be somewhat more resistant to scaling than would be unprotected steel sheet. Zinc (from galvanizing) would probably act in the same way... better than nothing, but not much better than pure steel sheet stovepipes. Scaling failure of mild steel starts at a temperature of about 800 F, but "ordinary" stainless steels seem to be good for about 1,100 F before they start to fail by overheating.

Best wishes,

Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Erin Miles Rasmussen
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 11:58 AM
Subject: Fw: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Wilmes
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)

Jim

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Dec 10 13:36:32 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:36:32 +0000
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c4ded3$a1cfea80$669a0a40@kevin>
References: <004901c4ded1$2ddd3760$6401a8c0@inventor>
<00ab01c4ded3$a1cfea80$669a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <lktjr0lcdi04uhno15qvuhb8uu0tv1274c@4ax.com>

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:16:37 -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:

>Dear Erin
>
>There are three basic modes of failure for a stove pipe:

Hi Kevin, Erin was just forwarding some posts to the list that fell
foul of the bounce rules, so don't shoot the messenger ;-).
>
>1: Rusting from the outside: Zinc (as galvanizing) will definitely reduce failure from this mechanism. Zinc (as electroplated zinc) will help when the pipe is new, but is unlikely to help significantly, because the thickness is relatively very small, and there is no formation of Zn/Fe intermetallic compounds.

From my limited observations once galvanise iron gets warm it corrodes
through the outside zinc surface, I wonder if condensible acids from
flue gases get washed down the outside.
>
>2: Acid attack on the inside: Zinc is not likely to help reduce this mechanism.

I imagine there is scope for a lot of acid tars in a cool chimney.
>
>3: Failure by overheating. Zinc (from electroplating) might help a little, if the overheating occurred when the pipe was new. Under the right conditions, the electroplated zinc can diffuse into the steel surface to form the Zn/Fe intermetallic compounds, which I am guessing would be somewhat more resistant to scaling than would be unprotected steel sheet. Zinc (from galvanizing) would probably act in the same way... better than nothing, but not much better than pure steel sheet stovepipes. Scaling failure of mild steel starts at a temperature of about 800 F, but "ordinary" stainless steels seem to be good for about 1,100 F before they start to fail by overheating.

I didn't realise that mild steel had this "scaling" occurred at below
400C, without doubt this is how my tubes fail, by flakes of rust
scabbing off the outside. I have been able to protect them to some
extent by using a wash of fire clay applied by hand. The original post
implied something similar as the yellow ochre may have the same
effect, the buttermilk holding it in a sticky suspension to adhere and
dry on the metal.

I'm actually a fan of vitreous enameled tubes for chimneys, though
stainless flue pipe is readily available here. Has anyone any recipes
for enamel that could be cooked onto a tincanium flue?

AJH

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Fri Dec 10 14:08:10 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:08:10 -0400
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
References: <004901c4ded1$2ddd3760$6401a8c0@inventor><00ab01c4ded3$a1cfea80$669a0a40@kevin>
<lktjr0lcdi04uhno15qvuhb8uu0tv1274c@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <012901c4def4$017ef320$669a0a40@kevin>

Dear Andrew
>
>1: Rusting from the outside: Zinc (as galvanizing) will definitely reduce failure from this mechanism. Zinc (as electroplated zinc) will help when the pipe is new, but is unlikely to help significantly, because the thickness is relatively very small, and there is no formation of Zn/Fe intermetallic compounds.

From my limited observations once galvanise iron gets warm it corrodes
through the outside zinc surface, I wonder if condensible acids from
flue gases get washed down the outside.

K: If this was happening, you would probably see "streaks of corrosion" where the condensibles leaked out. Somewhere between 500F and 600 F, the zinc surface appearance changes irreversibly... could be that zinc has been fumed off, or could be that it was absorbed in teh steel to form a greater depth of the Zn/Fe intermetallic compund.
>
>2: Acid attack on the inside: Zinc is not likely to help reduce this mechanism.

I imagine there is scope for a lot of acid tars in a cool chimney.

K: Yes. One of which is acetic acid.
>
>3: Failure by overheating. Zinc (from electroplating) might help a little, if the overheating occurred when the pipe was new. Under the right conditions, the electroplated zinc can diffuse into the steel surface to form the Zn/Fe intermetallic compounds, which I am guessing would be somewhat more resistant to scaling than would be unprotected steel sheet. Zinc (from galvanizing) would probably act in the same way... better than nothing, but not much better than pure steel sheet stovepipes. Scaling failure of mild steel starts at a temperature of about 800 F, but "ordinary" stainless steels seem to be good for about 1,100 F before they start to fail by overheating.

I didn't realise that mild steel had this "scaling" occurred at below
400C, without doubt this is how my tubes fail, by flakes of rust
scabbing off the outside.

K: It woun't be "rust", in the sense of being "red stuff", but rather, it will be "black iron oxide", or a "mill scale." It is very corrosion resistant on its own, but the problem is that it has a different expansion coefficient from the underlying steel, and it flakes off easily, at its own pace.
.
I have been able to protect them to some
extent by using a wash of fire clay applied by hand. The original post
implied something similar as the yellow ochre may have the same
effect, the buttermilk holding it in a sticky suspension to adhere and
dry on the metal.

I'm actually a fan of vitreous enameled tubes for chimneys, though
stainless flue pipe is readily available here. Has anyone any recipes
for enamel that could be cooked onto a tincanium flue?

I am not up on enamels and frits, but the "yellow iron oxide" may be just such a "naturally occuring enamelling material." The iron and the silica might be i the right proportions and degree of "fluxability", such that when applied to a very hot stovepipe, the heat could actually melt the material, and allow it to make a silicated enamel coating. Certainly, the calcium and the carbonaceous materials in teh buttermilk could have a real effect on the process.... calcium as a fluxing agent, and teh milk sugars as reductants.
Kindest regards,

Kevin

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Dec 10 14:27:53 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:27:53 +0000
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <012901c4def4$017ef320$669a0a40@kevin>
References: <004901c4ded1$2ddd3760$6401a8c0@inventor><00ab01c4ded3$a1cfea80$669a0a40@kevin>
<lktjr0lcdi04uhno15qvuhb8uu0tv1274c@4ax.com>
<012901c4def4$017ef320$669a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <nc1kr0doatvhci6g11oas8bdim3i229jaf@4ax.com>

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:08:10 -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:

> I didn't realise that mild steel had this "scaling" occurred at below
> 400C, without doubt this is how my tubes fail, by flakes of rust
> scabbing off the outside.

I mistyped this, I meant flakes falling off the inside.
>
> K: It woun't be "rust", in the sense of being "red stuff", but rather, it will be "black iron oxide", or a "mill scale." It is very corrosion resistant on its own, but the problem is that it has a different expansion coefficient from the underlying steel, and it flakes off easily, at its own pace.

Yes it appears grey and brittle.
AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Dec 10 14:56:01 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:56:01 +0000
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <nc1kr0doatvhci6g11oas8bdim3i229jaf@4ax.com>
References: <004901c4ded1$2ddd3760$6401a8c0@inventor><00ab01c4ded3$a1cfea80$669a0a40@kevin>
<lktjr0lcdi04uhno15qvuhb8uu0tv1274c@4ax.com>
<012901c4def4$017ef320$669a0a40@kevin>
<nc1kr0doatvhci6g11oas8bdim3i229jaf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <q43kr0p6r1d8egiibkug3tf4o9qgcjt56l@4ax.com>

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:27:53 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:

>>
>> K: It woun't be "rust", in the sense of being "red stuff", but rather, it will be "black iron oxide", or a "mill scale." It is very corrosion resistant on its own, but the problem is that it has a different expansion coefficient from the underlying steel, and it flakes off easily, at its own pace.
>
>Yes it appears grey and brittle.

One thing I meant to mention, I sit next to a Jotul wood burning
stove, it has some cast iron inserts to form the top and sides, the
top (about 10mm thick) one has flames impinging on it and hot flue gas
on the other side. In use it can glow a dull red, yet in 20 years it
has not burned through, yet.

AJH

From peetersfrans at pandora.be Fri Dec 10 15:54:53 2004
From: peetersfrans at pandora.be (Frans Peeters)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 22:54:53 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] BLUEING GUNS and CHIMNEYS
Message-ID: <000001c4df02$e173d550$1400a8c0@franspcsnel>

Dear Ken,

Blueing pure steel you do with SODIUM HYDROXIDE 400g/L + SODIUMNITRATE
50 g/L at 160 ? Celsius for 20 minutes.

Not so strong for guns at 20 ? C : SELENIC ACID + COPPERSULFATE in water
.About 5 and 10 %

COR-TEN STEEL : registered ! = secret composition . VERY STRONG for
bolds and tools .
----In general :Strongest alloy is 2% VANADIUM ! Next strongest CHROMIUM
..
Ask producer ?s price first ! Probably more expensive 18/8 Ni/Cr INOX
O,3 mm .
See: GOOGLE << CORTEN STEEL COMPOSITION >>

Vriendelijke Groeten,

Frans Peeters

From ken at basterfield.com Sat Dec 11 02:18:00 2004
From: ken at basterfield.com (Ken Basterfield)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 08:18:00 -0000
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <q43kr0p6r1d8egiibkug3tf4o9qgcjt56l@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <004301c4df59$f074b400$6802a8c0@KenThinkPad>

Dear All,
Another meomory from my early years.
We used to have a local foundry, Dudley & Dowells, still to be seen on
pavement drain and manhole covers around the UK. I must be a bit sad for
looking out for these details.
Anyway, along with these, they also cast fire baskets and grates and it
was known to be a red heat resistant cast iron / steel, which really did
last( similar to the jotul and other cast stoves)
Having made fire dogs and boxes out of mild steel which burn out rapidly
it is obvious that the foundry knew what they were up to with alloys.
Does anyone know the composition of the cast iron they would have used?
Sincerely
Ken

I've stopped 20,246 spam messages. You can too!
One month FREE spam protection at
http://www.cloudmark.com/spamnetsig/?rc=f4n4hl

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
Sent: 10 December 2004 20:56
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings &
Poisons)

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:27:53 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:

>>
>> K: It woun't be "rust", in the sense of being "red stuff", but
rather, it will be "black iron oxide", or a "mill scale." It is very
corrosion resistant on its own, but the problem is that it has a
different expansion coefficient from the underlying steel, and it flakes
off easily, at its own pace.
>
>Yes it appears grey and brittle.

From tombreed at comcast.net Sat Dec 11 03:56:26 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (tombreed at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:56:26 +0000
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
Message-ID: <121120040956.13705.41BAC44A0002B3D20000358922007503300B0A0A9D0D03019B@comcast.net>

Dear Ken and All:

At first your story is paradoxical. Steel has a melting point of ~1400C, cast iron only 1100C which is why firebacks and grates can easily be made from cast iron, much more difficult than steel castings. Also the thermal conductivity of cast iron is probably lower than steel. Yet cast iron grates etc. last better than steel. Why?

I believe that it is because being so massive the heat is carried away from the few places where burning fuel actually touches the grate and disipated by radiation in the massive structure.

COMMENTS?

TOM REED GASIFICATION BEF

> Dear All,
> Another meomory from my early years.
> We used to have a local foundry, Dudley & Dowells, still to be seen on
> pavement drain and manhole covers around the UK. I must be a bit sad for
> looking out for these details.
> Anyway, along with these, they also cast fire baskets and grates and it
> was known to be a red heat resistant cast iron / steel, which really did
> last( similar to the jotul and other cast stoves)
> Having made fire dogs and boxes out of mild steel which burn out rapidly
> it is obvious that the foundry knew what they were up to with alloys.
> Does anyone know the composition of the cast iron they would have used?
> Sincerely
> Ken
>
>
>
> I've stopped 20,246 spam messages. You can too!
> One month FREE spam protection at
> http://www.cloudmark.com/spamnetsig/?rc=f4n4hl
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
> list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
> Sent: 10 December 2004 20:56
> To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: Re: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings &
> Poisons)
>
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:27:53 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:
>
> >>
> >> K: It woun't be "rust", in the sense of being "red stuff", but
> rather, it will be "black iron oxide", or a "mill scale." It is very
> corrosion resistant on its own, but the problem is that it has a
> different expansion coefficient from the underlying steel, and it flakes
> off easily, at its own pace.
> >
> >Yes it appears grey and brittle.
>
> One thing I meant to mention, I sit next to a Jotul wood burning
> stove, it has some cast iron inserts to form the top and sides, the
> top (about 10mm thick) one has flames impinging on it and hot flue gas
> on the other side. In use it can glow a dull red, yet in 20 years it
> has not burned through, yet.
>
> AJH
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Dec 11 08:38:49 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:38:49 +0000
Subject: Fw: [STOVES] New activated carbon-from-wood plant
Message-ID: <v61mr0lqa53i47d1bl5cmekl4t180ra1ud@4ax.com>

This did not propagate to the list, I suspect John sent it from an
unsubscribed account. AJH

From: "John Hofmeyr" <john-h at global.co.za>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:53:31 +0200

Good afternoon,
In June 2003 there was an exchange between
Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> and
Kobus <ventfory at IAFRICA.COM>

It can be found at
http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/2003-June/000496.html

It was about carbonisation / activated carbon in South Africa.

What is the status of this plant?

Is there still interest in " ...utilizing waste biomass for charcoal
production here in Nova Scotia."

Regards, John.

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Dec 11 11:41:51 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:41:51 +0000
Subject: [Gasification] RE: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison
Message-ID: <4rbmr0dkgnuedne8llvbut504funf08jg9@4ax.com>

This did not propagate as Walt is only subscribed to Gasification, AJH
From: Walt Patrick <windward at gorge.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 08:51:34 -0800

At 09:56 AM 12/11/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear Ken and All:
>
>At first your story is paradoxical. Steel has a melting point of
~1400C,
>cast iron only 1100C which is why firebacks and grates can easily be
made
>from cast iron, much more difficult than steel castings. Also the
thermal
>conductivity of cast iron is probably lower than steel. Yet cast
iron
>grates etc. last better than steel. Why?

Generally it has to do with the coefficient of thermal
expansion. Cast
iron is more dimensionally stable than steel, and therefore it doesn't
"work itself" to death.

And if you add chrome and nickel to the cast iron, you can get
a thermally
stable mix that doesn't expand/shrink at all. For example, the cast
iron
cylinders that are used on volkswagen engines have a high
nickle/chrome
content and would be an ideal choice for casting a grate.

Just make sure you don't need to drill the castings; while
regular cast
iron drills like butter, it's for sure that the hinges of hell were
cast
from nickel/chrome.

Walt

From malcolm at mwt.net Sat Dec 11 13:51:15 2004
From: malcolm at mwt.net (Malcolm Greeley)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:51:15 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Pottershop Hollow barrel stove
Message-ID: <000601c4dfba$c6753e20$3153becf@mshome.net>

Hey I have been looking around on the web and your barrel stove idea poped up.It sounds like a good idea, have you improved it and do you have any pictures that you can send me.I have been thinking about building a stove and amy looking for any good ideas I can use. Thank You Malcolm at mwt.net

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Dec 11 17:01:25 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:01:25 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] COMPOSITION OF HEAT RESISTANT CAST IRON
Message-ID: <psumr0pliildisl7loanchlbd1rosnktu2@4ax.com>

This also did not propagate, AJH
From: "Frans Peeters" <peetersfrans at pandora.be>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:30:28 +0100

Dear KEN and stovers,

The composition you asked is :

UK ----SILAL =2,5% carbon 6,1 % (- 8 % ) Silicon .
US ----14% Nickel 5% Copper 1-4 % Chromium use till 1350 ? F
US -----15-35 % Chromium use till 1800 ?F

Making GRADES yourself ; weld 18/8 INOX , or INCONEL 1/3 ? .insted
starting a fondery
.
------Suggestions for making protections in stoves and tubes could be
:
ALUMINIUMHYDROXIDE + SODIUMSILICATE + filler SAND and CLAY . The big
art is the way of drying !
------See also VERMICULITE-CEMENT brick for inside stoves in internet
.
-------Replacement for metal GRATES is ALUMIN-STONES ( used in
Glass-melt oven ).
Combination : every inch a slit of 1/3 ?
.
Regards
Frans

From woldfamily at gmail.com Sat Dec 11 23:46:43 2004
From: woldfamily at gmail.com (WG9)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:46:43 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Cast Iron vs Steel
In-Reply-To: <20041211170012.512E1E297@ns2.misteam.net>
References: <20041211170012.512E1E297@ns2.misteam.net>
Message-ID: <8cb042a504121121461a345aa2@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm a debate as to why cast iron outperforms steel in a woodburning
environment..
I would postulate the following.. feel free to correct or disagree
with me all you wish as I am just shooting from the hip here..
First it would be my contention that yes cast is more massive but
steel is also more susceptible most corrosives than cast iron..not
sure why except that the alloy of iron and carbon that makes steel
apparently reacts more with these corrosives than iron alone does..so
I would say the chemistry of steel .. and of course the amount of
carbon or other alloy materials... yes I understand carbon steel is
not a 'true' alloy.. seem to promote or protect from corrosion in
varying degrees..
Iron for some reason to like heat as well..it keeps it dry and clean..
I knew one fellow who after finding an old cast iron dutch oven
...very disgustingly rusted btw... placed in a hollow of a hedge tree
he was burning out..now hedge is quite dense and burns very hot
because this.. after the tree had been burning for a while he went to
check on things and saw the pot was cherry red... next day he went
back to check again and there sat the pot in the ashes ..looking like
new! All the rust and corrosion just burned away..
>From this and other instances of experience with cast iron in stoves
and cooking utensils I would conclude that heat keeps the iron from
rusting..by keeping it dry first but also by some other chemical
reaction in Iron at heat that I do not understand.. so that Jotul
sitting there next to you..don't leave it in a moist cool environment
or it might just rust out quickly..keep it fired up and used...and it
might just last forever!
...fwiw...
WG9

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sun Dec 12 04:56:17 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:56:17 +0000
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <121120040956.13705.41BAC44A0002B3D20000358922007503300B0A0A9D0D03019B@comcast.net>
References: <121120040956.13705.41BAC44A0002B3D20000358922007503300B0A0A9D0D03019B@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5a7or09iq9c518p44d4g28cag7np00uppc@4ax.com>

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:56:26 +0000, tombreed at comcast.net wrote:

>Dear Ken and All:
>
>At first your story is paradoxical. Steel has a melting point of ~1400C, cast iron only 1100C which is why firebacks and grates can easily be made from cast iron, much more difficult than steel castings. Also the thermal conductivity of cast iron is probably lower than steel. Yet cast iron grates etc. last better than steel. Why?

We've had some good suggestions, not least of which is its thermal
stability. I think another factor is the mix of crystals that cast
iron is, I know that using an oxy-acetylene cutter one only has to
heat steel to red heat, 700C, before the oxygen starts burning the
metal, this metal oxidation then providing most of the energy for the
cutting. Do the same with cast iron and it immediately glows bright
yellow, suggesting something on the surface is acting like a
refractory, the oxygen never penetrates this.
>
>I believe that it is because being so massive the heat is carried away from the few places where burning fuel actually touches the grate and disipated by radiation in the massive structure.

In the case of the Jotul (where the grate is ash and the cast iron a
diverter/muffle plate), whilst it plainly never reaches a failure
point it is constantly heated on both sides by the flame or flue gas,
so the main means of losing heat must be by radiation. It must reach
an equilibrium somewhere between the flame temperature and the exit
flue gas temperature.

I think we have learned some useful stuff from the beginnings of this
subject by Ken Goyer. We have initially the idea that a simple mineral
like ochre could be mixed in suspension with buttermilk and painted on
a ship's stack. We are not told if this is inside and outside the
stack?

It strikes me that this is a harsh environment for, even though
combustion conditions should be good and flue temperature low, the
flue contains sulphurous compounds and the brine catalyses corrosion.
It seems unlikely the ochre would fuse or vitrify in these conditions
and I wonder what happens to the buttermilk as it is heated.

Following from that we have warnings of the danger of burning off zinc
from galvanised steel (a common resource), I'm unsure where arsenic or
cyanide came into the discussion. The flue should not really get hot
enough for this to occur, as it means we are wasting vast proportions
of the heat, but a chimney fire, burning off the tars and soot from
poor combustion, could easily do this.

Again what I did not gather was whether the common failure mode of a
sheet steel chimney (galvanised or otherwise) was from condensed
corrosive flue products eating away the inside or weathering from the
outside, I'd have thought the cheap ochre and buttermilk would protect
the outside if the flue heat baked it on, simply by keeping the
surface drier.

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sun Dec 12 05:43:48 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:43:48 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <002b01c4ddc6$50e2cb00$6702a8c0@KenThinkPad>
References: <41B7708C.2050105@comcast.net>
<002b01c4ddc6$50e2cb00$6702a8c0@KenThinkPad>
Message-ID: <kmbor01alfsg546ho1ulfml0fnoar4lcmp@4ax.com>

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:08:50 -0000, Ken Basterfield wrote:

>Dear All,
>I always thought that 'blue-ing' was produced by heat treating.

I think the blueing you refer to is that caused when the hot metal
forms a thin oxide layer, this is transparent and the pure metal under
the surface is reflective. The colouring is caused by an interference
between the two surfaces. As you say later in your post at lower
temperatures this is yellow and gets deeper to purple as the oxide
layer thickens. It's similar to the blooming on a camera lens. In
tempering this is how an edge that is hard and brittle by sudden
quenching is annealed back to give a higher strength (but softer
surface) by judging the shades of this oxide layer forming (obviously
temperature dependant).

You have said this does impart some corrosion resistance but this
fails if the oxide layer becomes corrupted. Other posts point to the
problem being differential expansion and contraction being the
mechanism this layer may become detached. So is there a common
chemical treatment that can form a more thermally stable layer on the
steel? Peter Singfield proposed a high temperature one, I suspect a
vitrified enamel would happen at similar temperatures but still need a
recipe.

The bluing of gun barrel may be a similar interference colour but is
achieved chemically, sometimes by cyanide compounds I believe.

AJH

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Sun Dec 12 09:25:31 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:25:31 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <kmbor01alfsg546ho1ulfml0fnoar4lcmp@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000901c4e05e$d1e3c750$1900a8c0@a31server>

Good Day Andrew and all !

I would have to say that "all in all" this has been a very good discussion
group this last little bit, I have added my 2 cents worth (and been politely
corrected when using the wrong words) but the wealth of knowledge I have
gained here, of late, (not saying I'll remember it) has been vast!

SEE ! as a group, we can do something!

Thank you!! to ALL that have contributed, lets keep up the great work!

I shall return to my humble corner, and continue tinkering with downdraft
gasification.

Greg Manning

Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of
list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 5:44 AM
To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:08:50 -0000, Ken Basterfield wrote:

>Dear All,
>I always thought that 'blue-ing' was produced by heat treating.

The bluing of gun barrel may be a similar interference colour but is
achieved chemically, sometimes by cyanide compounds I believe.

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Dec 12 14:45:49 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:45:49 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
Message-ID: <000001c4e08b$9311cdb0$838cfea9@home>

Dear Stovers

Let me have a shot at this.

Cast iron has about 7% carbon in it. That forms a very tight bond with
iron and it only oxidizes with difficulty even at a high temperature.

Mild steel has a carbon content below 0.18% most of the time, and it
oxidizes very easily in the presence of water or heat (as long as there
is air around).

Steel, in the presence of high heat (above 900C) and carbon from the
fires, picks up carbon. It penetrates into the steel surface at a rate
of about 0.1mm per hour of there is a lot of free carbon around. Free
carbon is a gas above 900C. This is how case hardening works.

In theory the carbon might protect the steel but there isn't enough of
it and the high carbon part will tend to flake off. The flakes are
usually high in carbon.

Cast iron heated very hot tends to lose carbon as there is more of it in
the steel than it would otherwise pick up from the passing gases. A
balance forms and no flaking takes place. You can use cast iron
shavings as a source of carbon gas for heat treating low carbon steel in
a closed atmosphere treatment (like case hardening in a stainless steel
box).

When you heat cast iron to a high temperature it literally loses the
surface (it burns away) but we don't notice because it was so thick to
begin with. After a time it does disappear.

There are substances you can put on hot cast iron to 'condition' the
surface to reduce rusting. They work by occupying the oxidation sites
or coating them with a greasy film.

Medium and high carbon steels (0.4% to 1.2%) lose carbon from the
surface during heat treatment and it has to be done in a carbon gas
atmosphere to put it back or the surface is softer as a result.

Howzat then?

Regards
Crispin

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of WG9
Sent: 12 December 2004 07:47
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Subject: [Stoves] Cast Iron vs Steel

Hmm a debate as to why cast iron outperforms steel in a woodburning
environment.. I would postulate the following.. feel free to correct or
disagree with me all you wish as I am just shooting from the hip here..
First it would be my contention that yes cast is more massive but steel
is also more susceptible most corrosives than cast iron..not sure why
except that the alloy of iron and carbon that makes steel apparently
reacts more with these corrosives than iron alone does..so I would say
the chemistry of steel .. and of course the amount of carbon or other
alloy materials... yes I understand carbon steel is not a 'true' alloy..
seem to promote or protect from corrosion in varying degrees.. Iron for
some reason to like heat as well..it keeps it dry and clean.. I knew one
fellow who after finding an old cast iron dutch oven ...very
disgustingly rusted btw... placed in a hollow of a hedge tree he was
burning out..now hedge is quite dense and burns very hot because this..
after the tree had been burning for a while he went to check on things
and saw the pot was cherry red... next day he went back to check again
and there sat the pot in the ashes ..looking like new! All the rust and
corrosion just burned away..
>From this and other instances of experience with cast iron in stoves
and cooking utensils I would conclude that heat keeps the iron from
rusting..by keeping it dry first but also by some other chemical
reaction in Iron at heat that I do not understand.. so that Jotul
sitting there next to you..don't leave it in a moist cool environment or
it might just rust out quickly..keep it fired up and used...and it might
just last forever! ..fwiw... WG9
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From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Dec 12 14:54:05 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:54:05 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
Message-ID: <000c01c4e08c$be6a5760$838cfea9@home>

Dear Friends

I understand that the main source of corrision on the inside of wood
stove chimneys is the result of the gases dropping below 150C and the
precipitation of H2SO3 (hydrosulphurous acid) which eats the chimney.

For that reason it is recommended that the exit tempeature of the
chimney be above this 160 temp, and I suggest you go for 200 to 220. It
was one of the things I tested on the Basintuthu Baking Stove when I
first made them 10 years ago because someone told me this was an
important design consideration. We seem not to have the problem with
that stove at an exit temp of 200-275 C.

Most rural stoves here with chimneys have a low exhaust temperature and
consequently the chimneys only last a few years.

Regards
Crispin

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
Sent: 12 December 2004 12:56
To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings &
Poisons)

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:56:26 +0000, tombreed at comcast.net wrote:

>Dear Ken and All:
>
>At first your story is paradoxical. Steel has a melting point of
>~1400C, cast iron only 1100C which is why firebacks and grates can
>easily be made from cast iron, much more difficult than steel castings.

>Also the thermal conductivity of cast iron is probably lower than
>steel. Yet cast iron grates etc. last better than steel. Why?

We've had some good suggestions, not least of which is its thermal
stability. I think another factor is the mix of crystals that cast iron
is, I know that using an oxy-acetylene cutter one only has to heat steel
to red heat, 700C, before the oxygen starts burning the metal, this
metal oxidation then providing most of the energy for the cutting. Do
the same with cast iron and it immediately glows bright yellow,
suggesting something on the surface is acting like a refractory, the
oxygen never penetrates this.

[snip]

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sun Dec 12 15:21:54 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:21:54 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <000c01c4e08c$be6a5760$838cfea9@home>
References: <000c01c4e08c$be6a5760$838cfea9@home>
Message-ID: <3mcpr0pi83agb743rrecj3gfp7d0ou7buq@4ax.com>

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:54:05 +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>I understand that the main source of corrision on the inside of wood
>stove chimneys is the result of the gases dropping below 150C and the
>precipitation of H2SO3 (hydrosulphurous acid) which eats the chimney.

I would have considered this less of a likelihood with wood as it has
a low sulphur content. I can see it with bitumous coal as the
volatiles provide the water and the sulphur content can be high, this
burns to SO2 which dissolves in the water if the flue temperature
falls below its dewpoint. The other likely mineral acids are
hydrochloric and phosphoric, the former from crops containing high
chlorine concentrations like grasses and the latter from zoomass.
>
>For that reason it is recommended that the exit tempeature of the
>chimney be above this 160 temp, and I suggest you go for 200 to 220.

This is also good practice because with excess air in the flue if the
dew point is reached there is a synergism with the moisture and oxygen
in a warm environment reacting with the metal.

Bear in mind that in the absence of full combustion many organic acids
are formed, once formed they need very high temperatures to destroy
them, probably in the order of 1200C, if these condense out on the
metal flue they will react with it.

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sun Dec 12 15:36:56 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:36:56 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
In-Reply-To: <000001c4e08b$9311cdb0$838cfea9@home>
References: <000001c4e08b$9311cdb0$838cfea9@home>
Message-ID: <reepr09uo5d7l407us205nqo0hckgnmjn6@4ax.com>

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:45:49 +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>In theory the carbon might protect the steel but there isn't enough of
>it and the high carbon part will tend to flake off. The flakes are
>usually high in carbon.

Okay I'll refer you back to Walt Patrick's post, he postulates that
it's cast irons thermal stability. If whatever it is in the surface of
the cast iron has similar thermal coefficients then there is no
relative movement to flake off these carbides or oxides, he used the
term "work itself to death" and that seems credible, the oxide layer
forms, pipe cools, one shrinks more than the other and a crack forms,
repeat this many times and the outer layer spalls off, because a new
layer of oxide has formed underneath it.

Now this bit of the discussion is more appropriate to what goes on in
the stove, we still need cheap treatments for the outer exposed bits
of flue.

AJH

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sun Dec 12 17:33:29 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:33:29 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
Message-ID: <000101c4e0a3$024b8010$838cfea9@home>

Dear Andrew

I agree with this flaking analysis. The flakes are sort of 'self
accelerating' once started because carbon gets behind the flake, and the
flake is not cooled because lifting from the surface reduces thermal
conduction. Once it starts it gets worse quickly.

Because of this problem, boxes used for heat treatment (like hardening
shafts etc) are made from staineless steel. The chrome etc content
prevents the steel from picking up carbon and the surface doesn't flake.
They discolour but the surface remains intact for thousands of heatings
to 930 or even 1000 C.

As for alternatives, I find the 540 degree silicone paint (HRA 540) will
take 600 C and few chimneys get to that temperature unless there is a
fire in it. It is cheap paint compared with plating or stainless steel.

Regards
Crispin

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
Sent: 12 December 2004 23:37
To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:45:49 +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>In theory the carbon might protect the steel but there isn't enough of
>it and the high carbon part will tend to flake off. The flakes are
>usually high in carbon.

Okay I'll refer you back to Walt Patrick's post, he postulates that it's
cast irons thermal stability. If whatever it is in the surface of the
cast iron has similar thermal coefficients then there is no relative
movement to flake off these carbides or oxides, he used the term "work
itself to death" and that seems credible, the oxide layer forms, pipe
cools, one shrinks more than the other and a crack forms, repeat this
many times and the outer layer spalls off, because a new layer of oxide
has formed underneath it.

Now this bit of the discussion is more appropriate to what goes on in
the stove, we still need cheap treatments for the outer exposed bits of
flue.

AJH

From english at kingston.net Sun Dec 12 18:20:33 2004
From: english at kingston.net (Alex English)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:20:33 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
In-Reply-To: <000001c4e08b$9311cdb0$838cfea9@home>
Message-ID: <41BC9A01.22446.55B134C@localhost>

> Howzat then?
>
> Regards
> Crispin

Excellent as usual.

I was just reading about corrosion in cast iron sewer pipe. It seems
the corrosion that does take place remains thoroughly bonded in place,
not flakey, and that a completely corroded pipe can remain
capable of withstanding significant pressures.

Exhaust manifolds on old tractors are perhaps a better gauge of what
a chimney might do. They get very pitted on the outside and appear lose
a significant amount of material. Fifty years on, they still perform their function.

Alex

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Dec 13 05:17:15 2004
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:17:15 EST
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
Message-ID: <20.3a1038fa.2eeed43b@aol.com>

OK, I'll take a stab at this.
When you have carbon saturation of cast iron, the box matrix of the
iron crystal has all of the oxide sites taken up with carbon. This is a very
stable configuration, someone practiced at valence work can explain the numbers.
Because of this, oxidation can only occur after the carbon is literally worn,
oxidized, (such as acid corrosion) or burned out.
Scale consists of FeO, Fe2O3 and Fe3O4, forming in that order from the
steel surface interface to the air surface interface. You can literally see
this with the color change if you stop the reaction, or look at the edges of
the scaling. FeO is the largest portion of it.
At roughly 3.5 to 4.5% carbon by mass, cast iron also has very good
insulative and heat retentive properties, because of the carbon limiting the
conduction rate at a molecular level. When heat is added, the penetration both in
and out is very slow, also allowing the holding of the heat within the iron.
This also limits the warping with high heat.
At F 800, low carbon steel (also known as mild steel such as a nail
or steel wire) will soften because it conducts heat and the open matrix allows
for low temperature flexibility. The quick oxidation of the surface of the
material will form scale, slowly disintegrating the metal. Cast iron will melt at
a lower temperature than mild steel (from F 1990 to F 2200) , yet it will not
soften until just below that temperature.
OK, now we can also add another property in case this was getting too
simple. Addition of silicon to cast iron, up to 10% but usually less than 3.5%
can affect corrosion resistance. Silicon is introduced from controlled
retention or addition of clean slag, more silicon, less corrosion. More silicon also
makes cast iron more machinable at low levels, and more brittle at higher
percentages.
Cast iron also forms many alloys just as steel does, the properties of
which are beyond the scope of this discussion. Dirty cast iron or steel
containing sulfur or phosphorus will corrode and scale faster. This is one reason
why charcoal iron can be longer lasting than rock coal smelted iron.
Anymore questions?
Dan Dimiduk

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Dec 13 06:22:01 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:22:01 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
Message-ID: <00d101c4e10e$65217620$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Dan

Your answer was better than mine! I agree with all of it.

There is a dreadful old coal stove I saw yesterday at the Hlatikhulu Girl's
Orphanage which is totally rusted from being outside for years and I think
if it was sandblasted it would be just fine again, like new.

26% of Swazi families have a coal stove in which they burn wood, thus
doubling their wood consumption compared with an open fire.

Regards
Crispin

----- Original Message -----
From: <Carefreeland at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel

OK, I'll take a stab at this.
When you have carbon saturation of cast iron, the box matrix of the
iron crystal has all of the oxide sites taken up with carbon. This is a very
stable configuration, someone practiced at valence work can explain the
numbers.
Because of this, oxidation can only occur after the carbon is literally
worn,
oxidized, (such as acid corrosion) or burned out.
Scale consists of FeO, Fe2O3 and Fe3O4, forming in that order from
the
steel surface interface to the air surface interface. You can literally see
this with the color change if you stop the reaction, or look at the edges of
the scaling. FeO is the largest portion of it.
At roughly 3.5 to 4.5% carbon by mass, cast iron also has very good
insulative and heat retentive properties, because of the carbon limiting the
conduction rate at a molecular level. When heat is added, the penetration
both in
and out is very slow, also allowing the holding of the heat within the iron.
This also limits the warping with high heat.
At F 800, low carbon steel (also known as mild steel such as a nail
or steel wire) will soften because it conducts heat and the open matrix
allows
for low temperature flexibility. The quick oxidation of the surface of the
material will form scale, slowly disintegrating the metal. Cast iron will
melt at
a lower temperature than mild steel (from F 1990 to F 2200) , yet it will
not
soften until just below that temperature.
OK, now we can also add another property in case this was getting too
simple. Addition of silicon to cast iron, up to 10% but usually less than
3.5%
can affect corrosion resistance. Silicon is introduced from controlled
retention or addition of clean slag, more silicon, less corrosion. More
silicon also
makes cast iron more machinable at low levels, and more brittle at higher
percentages.
Cast iron also forms many alloys just as steel does, the properties
of
which are beyond the scope of this discussion. Dirty cast iron or steel
containing sulfur or phosphorus will corrode and scale faster. This is one
reason
why charcoal iron can be longer lasting than rock coal smelted iron.
Anymore questions?
Dan Dimiduk

From ken at basterfield.com Mon Dec 13 10:35:17 2004
From: ken at basterfield.com (Ken Basterfield)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:35:17 -0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
In-Reply-To: <20.3a1038fa.2eeed43b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002201c4e131$bad90b50$6802a8c0@KenThinkPad>

Excellent!
Thanks,
Ken

I've stopped 20,456 spam messages. You can too!
One month FREE spam protection at
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-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
Carefreeland at aol.com
Sent: 13 December 2004 11:17
To: english at kingston.net; stoves at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel

OK, I'll take a stab at this.
When you have carbon saturation of cast iron, the box matrix of
the
iron crystal has all of the oxide sites taken up with carbon. This is a
very
stable configuration, someone practiced at valence work can explain the
numbers.
Because of this, oxidation can only occur after the carbon is literally
worn,
oxidized, (such as acid corrosion) or burned out.
Scale consists of FeO, Fe2O3 and Fe3O4, forming in that order
from the
steel surface interface to the air surface interface. You can literally
see
this with the color change if you stop the reaction, or look at the
edges of
the scaling. FeO is the largest portion of it.
At roughly 3.5 to 4.5% carbon by mass, cast iron also has very
good
insulative and heat retentive properties, because of the carbon limiting
the
conduction rate at a molecular level. When heat is added, the
penetration both in
and out is very slow, also allowing the holding of the heat within the
iron.
This also limits the warping with high heat.
At F 800, low carbon steel (also known as mild steel such as a
nail
or steel wire) will soften because it conducts heat and the open matrix
allows
for low temperature flexibility. The quick oxidation of the surface of
the
material will form scale, slowly disintegrating the metal. Cast iron
will melt at
a lower temperature than mild steel (from F 1990 to F 2200) , yet it
will not
soften until just below that temperature.
OK, now we can also add another property in case this was getting
too
simple. Addition of silicon to cast iron, up to 10% but usually less
than 3.5%
can affect corrosion resistance. Silicon is introduced from controlled
retention or addition of clean slag, more silicon, less corrosion. More
silicon also
makes cast iron more machinable at low levels, and more brittle at
higher
percentages.
Cast iron also forms many alloys just as steel does, the
properties of
which are beyond the scope of this discussion. Dirty cast iron or steel
containing sulfur or phosphorus will corrode and scale faster. This is
one reason
why charcoal iron can be longer lasting than rock coal smelted iron.
Anymore questions?
Dan Dimiduk
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From aes at bitstream.net Mon Dec 13 12:26:45 2004
From: aes at bitstream.net (Bruce Stahlberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:26:45 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [ethos] Chimney durability from ken
References: <41B551CF.60508@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <006801c4e141$4d4c8200$0200a8c0@aescmlhs7wpzrm>

What successes/failures have people experienced with a monolithic ceramic stove? Are there any design parameters to follow? Are there any designs or suggestions on how to make a monolithic stove with insulative ceramic material? Our medium is clay and an organic material (sawdust).

Thanks,

Bruce

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Mon Dec 13 13:06:11 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:06:11 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
In-Reply-To: <20.3a1038fa.2eeed43b@aol.com>
References: <20.3a1038fa.2eeed43b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <2slrr0tng628l2bun6lk8ia8a2rpj37a59@4ax.com>

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:17:15 EST, Carefreeland at aol.com wrote:

>OK, I'll take a stab at this.

> Anymore questions?

Not yet! It seems cast iron still has a lot going for it despite its
brittleness. Mind those old tractor manifolds that Alex mentions are a
problem to repair.

AJH

From snkm at btl.net Mon Dec 13 14:46:17 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:46:17 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041213135032.009e6790@pop.btl.net>

At 07:06 PM 12/13/2004 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:17:15 EST, Carefreeland at aol.com wrote:

>> Anymore questions?
>
>Not yet! It seems cast iron still has a lot going for it despite its
>brittleness. Mind those old tractor manifolds that Alex mentions are a
>problem to repair.
>
>AJH

Try small diameter TP - 308 (Stainless) welding rod -- DC current -- low
amperage -- tack -- tack -- then let cool sufficienty -- then tack some
more. Unilt -- over an hour or more -- you have built it up sufficiently.

Small tacks -- the secret is not to let things get hot.

Always has worked well for me --

I while back my cane crusher jammed and popped a number of teeth of the
main cast iron drive gears -- which i then repaired in the above manner.

This is old style village black-smithing trickery --

But TP 308 rod is the right alloy for welding most cast irons -- much
better -- faster -- easier -- than using cast iron rod.

Peter -- in Belize

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Dec 13 15:00:14 2004
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:00:14 EST
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
Message-ID: <2b.684d7ba6.2eef5cde@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/13/04 2:38:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk writes:

> >OK, I'll take a stab at this.
>
> <snipped erudite explanation of cast iron, thanks Dan>
>
> > Anymore questions?
>
> Not yet! It seems cast iron still has a lot going for it despite its
> brittleness. Mind those old tractor manifolds that Alex mentions are a
> problem to repair.
>
> AJH
>

DD Tom Reed once sent me a great website from a friend of his who was
exceptionally skilled at welding cast iron and primarily brazed it if I remember
correctly. Tom if you can send that URL several people here may utilize it now.

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Mon Dec 13 16:01:34 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:01:34 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
In-Reply-To: <00d101c4e10e$65217620$0100a8c0@md>
References: <00d101c4e10e$65217620$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <c94sr0tka2v7npit12puicfu8i02pik28p@4ax.com>

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:22:01 +0200, Crispin wrote:

>26% of Swazi families have a coal stove in which they burn wood, thus
>doubling their wood consumption compared with an open fire.

Because the primary air is too high and the secondary too low?

AJH

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Dec 13 16:07:29 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 00:07:29 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
Message-ID: <000001c4e160$293bee40$838cfea9@home>

Dear Dan

You would fail 'welding' here at New Dawn!

>Try small diameter TP - 308 (Stainless) welding rod
>-- DC current -- low amperage -- tack -- tack --
>then let cool sufficienty -- then tack some more.
>Until -- over an hour or more -- you have built it up
>sufficiently.

[snip]

Let's take that tractor manifold. Stainless steel rods don't have
enough carbon in them to get together. The reason your approach works
is because the 308 is very ductile and you have a weld that is very
different from the underlying metal - just about a guarantee of making a
fracture along the weld, even with ouy softly-softly approach.

Gotta heat it! But first grind out the joint to have an included angle
of 80 degrees, leaving 1mm of the original material to give an accurate
positioning. The 1mm will melt during the welding.

Then heat it up to below dull red - about 400. Use a cast iron rod and
a lot current - something lke 50% of a similar MS rod. Cast iron rods
typically have a stainless core wire plus lots of exotic things in the
flux, one of which maintains an arc at a low current when welding on
metal that is already very hot. I don't even use DC though all the
books say you have to. Na-a-ahh. Heat, yes.

Weld it as quickly as you can, one side then the other and back again.
Wire brush vigorously between passes if you have to make more than one
(which is very common). What you start you must finish in one go.

Then let it cool as slowly as you can organise - putting it in the base
of a hot fire and letting it go out, into an oven to cool down
overnight, surround it with bricks and seal the heat in.

The only material I found that simply cannot be welded is the engine
block of a 1983 Ford XR3 which I think has a very high silicon content.
Utter rubbish. Can't rebore them either.

Stove parts are easy. Your approach can be used to get something flat
put back together without pulling one way or the other but it still
should be well over 200 deg C.

Don't start welding until you have worked out how you are going to keep
it hot and cool slowly afterwards!

Come to think of it Dan, you can have all the tractor manifold jobs. I
am weary of them! And the maize grinders.

Regards
Crispin

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Mon Dec 13 16:34:48 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:34:48 -0400
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
References: <004301c4df59$f074b400$6802a8c0@KenThinkPad>
Message-ID: <003001c4e164$36e93990$419a0a40@kevin>

Dear Ken

I believe they were made from a high silicon cast iron. There was nothing exotic or expensive. Metallurgists on the list would know for sure... it is an easy question for them.

Kindest regards,

Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Basterfield
To: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk ; stoves at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 4:18 AM
Subject: RE: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)

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On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:27:53 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:

>>
>> K: It woun't be "rust", in the sense of being "red stuff", but
rather, it will be "black iron oxide", or a "mill scale." It is very
corrosion resistant on its own, but the problem is that it has a
different expansion coefficient from the underlying steel, and it flakes
off easily, at its own pace.
>
>Yes it appears grey and brittle.

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Mon Dec 13 16:36:33 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:36:33 -0400
Subject: [Gasification] RE: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison
(WasCoatings & Poisons)
References: <121120040956.13705.41BAC44A0002B3D20000358922007503300B0A0A9D0D03019B@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <003501c4e165$a7073370$419a0a40@kevin>

Dear Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: tombreed at comcast.net
To: Ken Basterfield ; list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk ; stoves at listserv.repp.org
Cc: gasification at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 5:56 AM
Subject: [Gasification] RE: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (WasCoatings & Poisons)

Dear Ken and All:

I believe that it is because being so massive the heat is carried away from the few places where burning fuel actually touches the grate and disipated by radiation in the massive structure.

COMMENTS?

The silicon in "High Silicon Cast Iron" forms a tight and adherent scale that prevents further oxidation and scaling.
Kevin

TOM REED GASIFICATION BEF

From crispin at newdawn.sz Tue Dec 14 01:29:30 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:29:30 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Cast Iron vs Steel
Message-ID: <001d01c4e1ae$a9c90860$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Andrew

>>26% of Swazi families have a coal stove in which they burn wood, thus
>>doubling their wood consumption compared with an open fire.

>Because the primary air is too high and the secondary too low?

Ah.....interesting question. Mostly because of very bad combustion, I would
say. There is a great deal of smoke from a stove chimney throughout its
burn. People put in way too much wood (for the available air supply) and
because it has a lot more in the way of volatiles, the wood demands more air
than a similar volume coal, at least initially.

The stove absorbs a great deal of heat expecially early on killing a lot of
the secondary combustion and at the end of hte cook there is a lot of heat
stored in the stove body that serves no purpose most of the year. Petra
Lasschuit (Lasshuit?) (Univ of Amsterdam) surveyed the wood consumption and
came up with the 'double' figure for families buying a stove.

The stove _looks_ like an electric stove on top so people want to put pots
on top of a steel surface which is obviously less efficient in transferring
heat than an open fire.

Thanks to you guys and gals I am now better informed as to the corrosive
precipitates that come from the poor wood combustion but whatever the cause,
the chimneys do not last long in these conditions. Like Lesotho where they
burn dung, you can tell when your neighbours are cooking from 1 km away.

There is no "Magic Stove" or "Welcome Dover" designed to burn wood
efficiently.

Regards
Crispin

From peetersfrans at pandora.be Tue Dec 14 16:12:13 2004
From: peetersfrans at pandora.be (Frans Peeters)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:12:13 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] MAGIC WOODSTOVE IDEAS !
Message-ID: <000701c4e229$f6fda110$1400a8c0@franspcsnel>

Dear Mr CRISPIN

There is no MAGIC WOODSTOVE yet ,but my ideas and planning are ready .
It will be a computerised stove with a car ECU with adapted sensors and
actuators plus E-PROM .
Example : Siemens used 8 MHz processor 6800 . E-PROM 512 Kb lamda
sonde in chimney .
Air flow sensor ,air pressure , temperatures inside and in smoke, wood
humidity detector, wood type selector ,Proportional smoke fan, low fuel
alarm ,CO detector . Igniter .
Welded stove with ceramic window 60 x 40 cm and small side door
20 x20 ; vermiculite bottom +15cm higher . Heat exchanger around stove
with proportional fan and temperature sensor.
Long horizontal smoke pipe heat exchanger-box No 2 for 40 ? C off gas
setting .
It is mend as heating for the home. ---- For cooking in Africa one
needs a modification
Design priority 100% smell-free by loading .
.
Vriendelijke Groeten,

Frans Peeters

From kgoyer at comcast.net Wed Dec 15 02:20:49 2004
From: kgoyer at comcast.net (ken goyer)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:20:49 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Re: ceramic questions
In-Reply-To: <005e01c4e140$c06641a0$0200a8c0@aescmlhs7wpzrm>
References: <41B551CF.60508@comcast.net>
<005e01c4e140$c06641a0$0200a8c0@aescmlhs7wpzrm>
Message-ID: <41BFF3E1.1040103@comcast.net>

Dear Bruce, I'm glad to hear from you and glad to see that you are
experimenting with light weight ceramics. I like to measure things by
volume since that is the fastest and most practical way. Think of
shovels, buckets, wheelbarrows. Dry clay is surprisingly close to wet
clay in volume but you will learn how to adjust the amount with a little
experience. I like the organic material to pass through a fairly fine
screen but this is not always expedient or practical. So I have learned
to compromise with a screen of about eight or ten wires per inch. This
will take out the most objectionable impurities. Mixing water is done by
look and feel. Some people like it drier and some wetter. I favor it
wetter. I think that it helps the clay to stick together better when it
is placed in the (slop) mold. I like the brick to be just firm enough to
retain it's shape when the mold is removed.
The first thing you should do is to make some test samples. These
can be made from small balls of differing mixes that are flattened out
like a tortilla. These dry fast and fire easy on any kind of a fire. Use
insulation to keep the heat in and raise the temperature. In other
words, build a fire, when there are some coals put your test discs on
top, add some more wood, cover everything with ashes or sawdust or grass
etc. to keep the heat in and when the whole thing cools off you should
have some results.(Or fire them in your kiln). Our rule of thumb is that
your ceramic should be light enough to float on water. Actually even
lighter if possible but this is a quick and easy test when you have no
equipment. Put your test disk in a baggie since it is porous and will
rapidly absorb water. David Letterman asks, "Will it float?"
You should try many different ingredients and proportions. I would
start with a series of 10 parts of clay to 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15
parts of sawdust. You can use a small bottle cap or anything to measure
with. Then try adding other types of clay to the mix. Try adding a small
amount of cement. Sometimes this helps and sometimes not. Most people
don't like cement because it costs money. Take notes, make your clay
tortillas, pick the discs that come out the best, and in short order you
will have some sound experimental information on which to proceed.
Please let me know how you come out and if I can be of further help.
See you at ETHOS. Best regards, Ken

Bruce Stahlberg wrote:

> Hi Ken,
>
> Since you have a lot of experience on the ceramic mixtures I am going
> to you for these questions. This is Bruce from Minneapolis and I
> will hope to see you in Seattle next month too. In the meantime, I
> have some questions that I hope you can answer.
>
> With a sawdust mixture, it calls for 50% sawdust/50% clay. Is that by
> volume? I have powder clay mix and screened sawdust.
> Water amount? Do you just do that by feel and texture or is there an
> amount you use?
> I seem to remember the sawdust being screened for uniform
> consistency. What size screen do you recommend?
>
> We have a kiln, a warehouse and are now starting to experiment with
> firing but just had some questions before we get started. I have read
> much of the articles on repp.org
>
> See you soon,
>
> Bruce

From dstill at epud.net Wed Dec 15 10:30:08 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:30:08 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] modern stoves
Message-ID: <20041215163008.DB530BC@telchar.epud.net>

http://www.woodflame.com/technology.html

Dear Friends,

James Hensel referred me to the above where a company makes a fan assisted
cooking stove. Looks interesting.

Best,

Dean

From dstill at epud.net Wed Dec 15 11:24:36 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:24:36 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] FW: Indoor Air Pollution - Just Published
Message-ID: <20041215172437.E39AD63@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Friends,

Here's a great report on the effects of indoor air pollution caused by
cooking/heating/lighting with biomass.

Best,

Dean

_____

Dear colleagues,

WHO has just published the first Indoor Air Thematic Briefing. This new WHO
series of 2-4 pagers aims to provide a broad readership with accessible
facts and figures covering specific aspects of the indoor air pollution and
household energy field. "Indoor air pollution, household energy and the
Millennium Development Goals" is now available at
<http://www.who.int/indoorair/info/presentations/en/>
http://www.who.int/indoorair/info/presentations/en/

You may also be interested in the print-ready poster "Indoor smoke -
breaking down respiratory defences" which can be downloaded from
<http://www.who.int/indoorair/publications/indsmokeposter/en/>
http://www.who.int/indoorair/publications/indsmokeposter/en/. Please let me
know if you would like to receive an A1 hard copy of this poster.

Best wishes and happy holidays

Eva

Eva Rehfuess

Protection of the Human Environment

World Health Organization

1211 Geneva 27

Switzerland

Tel: +41 22 791 4979

Fax: +41 22 791 1383

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Dec 16 10:07:38 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:07:38 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Atmospheric particulates - offset trading opportunity
Message-ID: <004b01c4e389$68852f00$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Stovers

For anyone who might be interested, either yourself of someone you know,
Tami Bond and I have created a method for people to purchase the atmospheric
particulate equivalent of CO2 greenhouse gas offsets.

This means that if you want to 'undo' the effect on the atmosphere cause by
the release of small dark particulates from flying or driving a vehicle or
burning the grass, you can purchase a Vesto and have it placed in a
child-headed household in Swaziland and they will save the atmosphere for
you!

We have in Swaziland a population that is already 7% orphans, almost
entirely from HIV/AIDS. The problem will get even worse for the next 6 to
10 years.

Suitable sites for fuel efficient stoves are being identified by volunteers
working in the field of child care (mostly private efforts and individual
initiatives). You can go to www.co2.org to buy carbon offsets but there is
only one place to go to purchase offsets for atmospheric particulates! On
top of that we will ensure that you a) get a discount for helping the
non-governmental sector and b) will at this early stage get to see a photo
of the stove and/or the family it is helping.

Visit the New Dawn Engineering website at www.newdawnengineering.com or go
directly to http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/trader/trader.htm

Many thanks!
Crispin

From kgoyer at comcast.net Thu Dec 16 13:54:19 2004
From: kgoyer at comcast.net (ken goyer)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:54:19 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [ethos] Chimney durability from ken
In-Reply-To: <006801c4e141$4d4c8200$0200a8c0@aescmlhs7wpzrm>
References: <41B551CF.60508@comcast.net>
<006801c4e141$4d4c8200$0200a8c0@aescmlhs7wpzrm>
Message-ID: <41C1E7EB.6040002@comcast.net>

Dear Bruce, I have not had much luck making monolithic stoves from
ceramics. Dean Still has made some from clay/vermiculite that came out.
But I see two things wrong with this approach. First, expansion and
contraction due to heating and cooling is the death of ceramics. When
the ceramic goes around a corner many more stresses will encourage it to
crack quickly. Flat or rectangular pieces or pieces curved in only one
plane survive better. Secondly, firing an entire stove takes a lot of
space and energy in the kiln. This also makes firing cylinders more
difficult, costly, and time consuming. All of that said, you probably
can do it if you really want to. Try using sheet metal rolled into a
cylinder and secured with sheet metal screws for the outside mold, and
cardboard "carpet" tubes for the inside mold. The screws can be removed
and the mold easily removed and the tubes will burn out or can be
peeled away to allow the stove to dry faster. Best of luck and give us
a full report. Regards, Ken

Bruce Stahlberg wrote:

> What successes/failures have people experienced with a monolithic
> ceramic stove? Are there any design parameters to follow? Are there
> any designs or suggestions on how to make a monolithic stove with
> insulative ceramic material? Our medium is clay and an organic
> material (sawdust).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bruce

From dstill at epud.net Thu Dec 16 15:21:00 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:21:00 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] FW: fast cooking
Message-ID: <20041216212101.822B062@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Friends,

Check out the fancy pot skirts, etc. at:

http://www.bestofnewengland.com/detail.aspx?ID=1239

Looking forward to seeing everyone at ETHOS in Seattle January 29-30.

Reservations at Kirkland Inn can be made by calling:

425 822 2300. A block of rooms are reserved for ETHOS.

See home made digital movies showing how metering the fuel cleans up
combustion! Try 20 stoves from around the world! EPA/PCIA will be there! As
will HELPS, Trees, Water and People, Winrock, Aprovecho, Universities
galore! AND MORE!

Closing the door on a charcoal burning stove seems to dramatically reduce CO
and particulates! AND MORE!

Hot coffee!

Best,

Dean

From ventfory at iafrica.com Fri Dec 17 01:33:11 2004
From: ventfory at iafrica.com (Venter Forestry)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:33:11 +0200
Subject: [STOVES] New activated carbon-from-wood plant - Karbotek
In-Reply-To: <v61mr0lqa53i47d1bl5cmekl4t180ra1ud@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20041217073310.930F4CB95@mollusk.mweb.co.za>

Thanks Andrew

Hi John,

The plant temporarily seized production ? 2 or more months ago in order to
revamp some of their equipment used to process the Eucalyptus spp. round
logs into squares, before being placed in their carbonizing retorts.
Production is set to resume in early 2005. I cannot answer for Kevin
pertaining to the question on Nova Scotia.

Kobus

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
Sent: 11 December 2004 04:39 PM
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Fw: [STOVES] New activated carbon-from-wood plant

This did not propagate to the list, I suspect John sent it from an
unsubscribed account. AJH

From: "John Hofmeyr" <john-h at global.co.za>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:53:31 +0200

Good afternoon,
In June 2003 there was an exchange between
Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> and
Kobus <ventfory at IAFRICA.COM>

It can be found at
http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/2003-June/000496.html

It was about carbonisation / activated carbon in South Africa.

What is the status of this plant?

Is there still interest in " ...utilizing waste biomass for charcoal
production here in Nova Scotia."

Regards, John.

---
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From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Dec 17 02:11:03 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:11:03 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: fast cooking
Message-ID: <003f01c4e413$35476740$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Dean

Thanks for the invitation to the ETHOS conference.

The promise of hot coffee is a big attraction too. That restaurant was
lekker.

You mentioned:
>Closing the door on a charcoal burning stove seems to
>dramatically reduce CO and particulates!

I really feel we should devote some time on this group to examining this
phenomenon. A lot of people are using these little charcoal stoves -
millions of them, and as far as I am concerned CO emitted is fuel wasted.
If the CO is down and the particulates lowered (becaues they are burned ?)
then we have to understand broadly what is going on and how to work with the
physics of it all.

Thanks
Crispin

From entre16 at intelnet.net.gt Fri Dec 17 05:54:22 2004
From: entre16 at intelnet.net.gt (derick calderon)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:54:22 -0500
Subject: [STOVES] New activated carbon-from-wood plant - Karbotek
References: <20041217073310.930F4CB95@mollusk.mweb.co.za>
Message-ID: <009f01c4e42f$26edc8d0$6401a8c0@your6bvpxyztoq>

Gentlemen: People in Guatemala and in the rest of CentralAmerica who have
been approached or in some other ways informed or already using new designs
of stoves probably could be interested in not only Eucalaliptus activated
carbon but also from Bambu. Shouls there be an opportunity for this we would
be most pleased to participate with some resources within our possibilities
and knowledge.

Cordially

Derick Calderon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Venter Forestry" <ventfory at iafrica.com>
To: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Cc: <john-h at global.co.za>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 2:33 AM
Subject: RE: [STOVES] New activated carbon-from-wood plant - Karbotek

Thanks Andrew

Hi John,

Kobus

This did not propagate to the list, I suspect John sent it from an
unsubscribed account. AJH

From: "John Hofmeyr" <john-h at global.co.za>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:53:31 +0200

Good afternoon,
In June 2003 there was an exchange between
Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm at ca.inter.net> and
Kobus <ventfory at IAFRICA.COM>

It can be found at
http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/2003-June/000496.html

It was about carbonisation / activated carbon in South Africa.

What is the status of this plant?

Is there still interest in " ...utilizing waste biomass for charcoal
production here in Nova Scotia."

Regards, John.

---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.769 / Virus Database: 516 - Release Date: 2004/09/24

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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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From dstill at epud.net Fri Dec 17 11:56:42 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:56:42 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] RE: charcoal emissions
In-Reply-To: <003f01c4e413$35476740$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <20041217175643.E484A186@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Crispin,

We're finishing up the testing of the Vesto next week. Thanks for the DVD.

1.) I agree that looking at charcoal is interesting. Here are my
experiences:

About a year ago we studied three charcoal stoves sent from Africa, a
traditional stove, an all metal and a ceramic lined model. We used a real
charcoal made from mesquite in Mexico not made briquettes.

I was surprised that we saw a lot of particulates as well as CO and that
heating up the combustion made it worse. Basically we saw higher firepower
resulting in higher levels of CO and particulates. Insulating the combustion
chamber, getting hot air to the fire resulted in a faster but not cleaner
burn. CO is high anyway and got to more lethal levels when charcoal burned
hotter and faster.

This year we tested the 20 cooking stoves from around the world for fuel
efficiency, emissions under a hood, and emissions in a Test Kitchen. Thanks
to Murdock Foundation, Shell Foundation and the Partnership for Clean Indoor
Air! We noticed that at all stages of the burn shutting the door under the
charcoal, reducing updraft into the fire, cut CO and particulates. Firepower
was reduced as well. I'll show a digital movie at ETHOS about this. Seems
like simmering with door closed is healthier.

2.) Metering the wood fuel by having only the tips of sticks burn also
reduces CO and particulates. Pushing sticks 5 inches into the Rocket
combustion chamber results in a hot burn that doesn't make much smoke. CO is
about half of most un-insulated stoves but particulates are about the same.

Tami Bond tells me that there are two kinds of particulates: white and
black. White comes from smoke, smoldering biomass. Black particles come from
hot flames. So even when we get rid of smoke we make these nasty black
particles. The Rocket does not smolder much wood so there are not many white
particles but the hot flames make black particles in about the same amount
as smoky stoves make white particles. Maybe?

When we push the sticks only 2 inches into the Rocket combustion chamber CO
and particulates are significantly reduced. Seems like the air/fuel ratio,
the amount of gases released, the amount of flame created become closer to
optimal. I'll hopefully show a movie about this at ETHOS. Seems like burning
sticks at the ends can make a relatively clean fire.

3.) Stoves with chimneys are a solution to indoor air pollution. As long as
the stove and chimney don't leak inexpensive cooking stoves can meet U.S.
standards for indoor clean air.

4.) Tom Reed's stove (that uses a very small fan) runs pretty darn clean.
What an amazing invention!! Tom saves the world!

5.) Lots more to chat about at ETHOS. The book describing the performance of
the 20 stoves will be published by the Partnership for Clean Indoor Air in
2005. We plan to put all the data on STOVES.

Best,

Dean

From gretsmags at msn.com Fri Dec 17 12:21:47 2004
From: gretsmags at msn.com (JEFF GRETSFELD)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:21:47 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Pellet Boilers
Message-ID: <BAY3-F57B0A3B9FAFD3354A0B85AAAF0@phx.gbl>

Would anyone have information about a dual fuel (pellet/gas) boiler?
Information about emissions, manufacturers, dealers (northern Minnesota,
Wisconsin), and any other helpful information.

Thanks.

Jeff

From willing at mts.net Fri Dec 17 13:04:13 2004
From: willing at mts.net (Scott Willing)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:04:13 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Pellet Boilers
In-Reply-To: <BAY3-F57B0A3B9FAFD3354A0B85AAAF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <41C2D94D.12847.94D061@localhost>

http://www.woodboilers.com

On 17 Dec 2004 at 12:21, JEFF GRETSFELD wrote:

> Would anyone have information about a dual fuel (pellet/gas)
> boiler? Information about emissions, manufacturers, dealers
> (northern Minnesota, Wisconsin), and any other helpful
> information.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From willing at mts.net Fri Dec 17 13:17:07 2004
From: willing at mts.net (Scott Willing)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:17:07 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Pellet Boilers
In-Reply-To: <BAY3-F57B0A3B9FAFD3354A0B85AAAF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <41C2DC53.9871.A0A02E@localhost>

Actually Jeff, I may have missed the mark. They have pellet/corn
boilers, wood boilers, and wood boilers with oil/gas backup, but
I don't specifically see a pellet boiler with gas backup. I'd ask
them though, websites don't always tell the full story.

-=s

On 17 Dec 2004 at 12:21, JEFF GRETSFELD wrote:

From mailthompson at yahoo.com Fri Dec 17 13:45:07 2004
From: mailthompson at yahoo.com (Kyle Thompson)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:45:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 5, Issue 19
In-Reply-To: <20041217170013.8C5AA29A46@ns2.misteam.net>
Message-ID: <20041217194507.42424.qmail@web61001.mail.yahoo.com>

Dean,

I have been looking at this design and came up with
something similar on a different scale before finding
out about the jetboil system found at:

http://www.bestofnewengland.com/detail.aspx?ID=1239

It is just symantics, but I do not call the system a
pot skirt. The cover (the neoprene) surrounding the
pot is a "cozy" and the bottom of the pot/cup has a
"heat exchanger" on it. It may just be considered a
"mini-skirt" with high heals. :)

My mother often told me this mini-skirt story from
high school. When she went to high school the girls
skirts had to be 2 inches below the longest reach of
their fingertips with their arms draped to the sides.
They would roll the skirts at the top to make them
shorter. When called to the principal's office for an
official measurement, they would unroll the skirt from
the top and pull it down to so as to not violate the
rule. On the way back to class they would roll the
top back up. I have used the same principal with pot
"cozies" (incidentally made out of wool ladies skirts)
when making lightweight camping cozys. One cozy can
be used on several different size pots by rolling the
top to shorten the sides. Plus, you can bring the pot
off the fire, wrap the cozy around the pot, now you
have strawbox cooking, without the strawbox. At the
very least the pot stays warm while you cook other
items.

I've found the my best single use for a cozy while
camping or backyard cooking is keeping coffee, hot
water, or tea warm in the evening. The 2nd best use
is
keeping a pot of rice or soup warm until the second
course of the meal is complete (usually fish or red
meat) These methods have allowed me to server a hot
multi-dish meal while using only a single burner
wood-gas stove.

Boil the water first (in a metal coffee pot/cozy
combination) when firing up the stove, then set it
aside (on a
insulated pad) It provides hot drink/water while the
rest of the food is being cooked. The colder it gets,
the bigger advantage this is. When ice-fishing the
benefit is very apparent. (You don't have to transfer
the liquid to a thermos or carry a thermos.)

Looking in department stores many coffee makers are
starting to use similar ideas. Insulating the sides
of the coffee pot can save some major electric
bills....from what my energy company tells me.

I've seen heat exchangers on the bottom of $200.00
British Tea pots sold at Williams and Sonoma, but to
me the do not have the surface area found on the
jetboil.

One problem with the JetBoil system is that if there
is a high wind you will need a windscreen, or a "pot
skirt"

One other problem with the jet boil system may be the
build up of carbon on the fins (if used with a
wood-gas stove.) There is little buildup with the
Jetboil system as designed. Others have told me my
fins would build up too much carbon when used over a
wood-gas stove. I think most would just burn off,
while the rest can just be knocked off once in a
while.

I have come to realize all of this "micro" engineering
is probably not appropriate for third world countries,
but it has helped me to think more about the cooking
process and streamlining/improving the process for
backpacking and canoe camping. With wood-gas camping
stoves I'm doing more and more "real" cooking in the
field because I have more fuel and better techniques
(such as straw-box cooking). Real cooking includes
making bread, non-instant soups, cookies, and so
forth.

3 Cents worth.

Kyle

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com

From english at kingston.net Sat Dec 18 07:28:59 2004
From: english at kingston.net (Alex English)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:28:59 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] RE: charcoal emissions
In-Reply-To: <20041217175643.E484A186@telchar.epud.net>
References: <003f01c4e413$35476740$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <41C3EA4B.4824.1E1A5C@localhost>

Dear Dean,
If you haven't already done so, you might consider testing the combustion of charcoal
piled up in the Rocket stove and Tom Reed's stove. It might yield some interesting
results.

Is the particulate from charcoal white or black?
Alex
> Dear Crispin,
>
> We're finishing up the testing of the Vesto next week. Thanks for the DVD.
>
> 1.) I agree that looking at charcoal is interesting. Here are my
> experiences:
>
> About a year ago we studied three charcoal stoves sent from Africa, a
> traditional stove, an all metal and a ceramic lined model. We used a real
> charcoal made from mesquite in Mexico not made briquettes.
>
> I was surprised that we saw a lot of particulates as well as CO and that
> heating up the combustion made it worse. Basically we saw higher firepower
> resulting in higher levels of CO and particulates. Insulating the combustion
> chamber, getting hot air to the fire resulted in a faster but not cleaner
> burn. CO is high anyway and got to more lethal levels when charcoal burned
> hotter and faster.
>
> This year we tested the 20 cooking stoves from around the world for fuel
> efficiency, emissions under a hood, and emissions in a Test Kitchen. Thanks
> to Murdock Foundation, Shell Foundation and the Partnership for Clean Indoor
> Air! We noticed that at all stages of the burn shutting the door under the
> charcoal, reducing updraft into the fire, cut CO and particulates. Firepower
> was reduced as well. I'll show a digital movie at ETHOS about this. Seems
> like simmering with door closed is healthier.
>
> 2.) Metering the wood fuel by having only the tips of sticks burn also
> reduces CO and particulates. Pushing sticks 5 inches into the Rocket
> combustion chamber results in a hot burn that doesn't make much smoke. CO is
> about half of most un-insulated stoves but particulates are about the same.
>
> Tami Bond tells me that there are two kinds of particulates: white and
> black. White comes from smoke, smoldering biomass. Black particles come from
> hot flames. So even when we get rid of smoke we make these nasty black
> particles. The Rocket does not smolder much wood so there are not many white
> particles but the hot flames make black particles in about the same amount
> as smoky stoves make white particles. Maybe?
>
> When we push the sticks only 2 inches into the Rocket combustion chamber CO
> and particulates are significantly reduced. Seems like the air/fuel ratio,
> the amount of gases released, the amount of flame created become closer to
> optimal. I'll hopefully show a movie about this at ETHOS. Seems like burning
> sticks at the ends can make a relatively clean fire.
>
> 3.) Stoves with chimneys are a solution to indoor air pollution. As long as
> the stove and chimney don't leak inexpensive cooking stoves can meet U.S.
> standards for indoor clean air.
>
> 4.) Tom Reed's stove (that uses a very small fan) runs pretty darn clean.
> What an amazing invention!! Tom saves the world!
>
> 5.) Lots more to chat about at ETHOS. The book describing the performance of
> the 20 stoves will be published by the Partnership for Clean Indoor Air in
> 2005. We plan to put all the data on STOVES.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
>

From dstill at epud.net Sat Dec 18 10:21:18 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:21:18 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] RE: charcoal emissions
In-Reply-To: <41C3EA4B.4824.1E1A5C@localhost>
Message-ID: <20041218162119.3AD4816@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Alex,

We'll try it as soon as we can, a little busy right now. I don't know if the
particulates are white or black but Tami is analyzing the filters and will
know soon.

Happy Holidays,

Dean

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex English [mailto:english at kingston.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 5:29 AM
To: Dean Still
Cc: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
Subject: RE: [Stoves] RE: charcoal emissions

Dear Dean,
If you haven't already done so, you might consider testing the combustion of
charcoal
piled up in the Rocket stove and Tom Reed's stove. It might yield some
interesting
results.

Is the particulate from charcoal white or black?
Alex

From tmiles at trmiles.com Sun Dec 19 14:40:01 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 12:40:01 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Biomass Cooking Stoves Web Update
Message-ID: <001301c4e60a$fab73a70$6501a8c0@Yellow>

Stovers,

We've just placed Mike Hatfield's "2004 Honduran Market Stove" update on the Stoves page.

We've also placed links for registration to the ETHOS 2005 Conference in Seattle, Washington, January 29-30, 2005.

http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

Happy Holidays

Tom Miles

From tmiles at trmiles.com Sun Dec 19 22:08:56 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 20:08:56 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Trauma in the Andes: San Juan, Argentina
Message-ID: <002e01c4e649$a4b0fc80$6501a8c0@Yellow>

Stovers,

While returning from Santigo to Atlanta this week I sat next to a doctor who works at a public hospital in San Juan Argentina, near Mendoza. She was very interested in topics of stoves and health. She told me stories that must be familiar to many of you. As we discussed cookstoves she had no idea that gases from cookstoves could cause harm. What she sees are the burn victims, many of them.

I referred her to the Biomass Cookstoves Website but her interest raised other questions:

1. Do we have factsheets or brochures in English and Spanish that we can point to or post on the website that describe the health effects of cookstove use and possible solutions?
2. Can we make the Spanish version of the website more useful to people working in medical and social programs in Latin America?
3. Are there other ways that we can use the Biomass Cooking Stoves and other websites to be more useful in sharing our growing knowledge about stoves and health?

Happy Holidays

Tom

From kgoyer at comcast.net Mon Dec 20 00:31:45 2004
From: kgoyer at comcast.net (ken goyer)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 22:31:45 -0800
Subject: [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
In-Reply-To: <OFA729B508.A0625669-ON85256F65.00595608-85256F65.00596CCD@notes.udayton.edu>
References: <OFA729B508.A0625669-ON85256F65.00595608-85256F65.00596CCD@notes.udayton.edu>
Message-ID: <41C671D1.6030706@comcast.net>

Dear Margie, I have done a little sluthing about the chimney blueing.
The local stove place says that blued pipe is now considered obsolete.
Stainless steel is almost exclusively used. They say that blued steel
doesn't hold up very good. At our local hardware store you can still
buy blued pipe so I bought one and am sending it to you for your
perusal. Merry Christmas! Best regards, Ken

Margaret.Pinnell at notes.udayton.edu wrote:

>
>
>
>Was the chimney blued before it was used or did it blue as a result of
>exposure to high temp during use?
>
>Send me a chimney for failure analysis.
>
>Margaret F. Pinnell, Ph. D.
>Assistant Professor
>Director of ETHOS
>Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
>University of Dayton
>300 College Park
>Dayton, Ohio 45469-0210
>Phone: 937-229-3464
>Mobile: 937-750-6423
>
>
>
>
> ken goyer
> <kgoyer at comcast.n
> et> To
> Sent by: "STOVES (E-mail)"
> owner-ethos at vrac. <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>, ethos
> iastate.edu <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
> cc
>
> 12/08/2004 04:22 Subject
> PM [ethos] Re: [Stoves] Zinc as a
> Poison (Was Coatings & Poisons)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Dear friends, Continuing with this thread, one other thing to think
>about... In the past, and maybe still, wood stove flue pipes in Oregon
>(for wood heating stoves) were often blued. Like in blueing a gun
>barrel. I know that this is a chemical treatment to the steel but I
>don't know much more about it other than it prevents oxidation of the
>steel. Maybe someone else has more information about blueing. Regards, Ken
>
>Richard Stanley wrote:
>
>
>
>>Ok for all the scientists out there, what about bginging the mountain
>>to mohammed. Corten steel was a very clever development the
>>construction industry. It was designed to create a protective oxide
>>layer-- a sort of controlled rust which protected it from further
>>degradation. How was it made: could that process be applied in a
>>practical (3rd world resource accessible) manner, to plain sheet steel
>>for chimneys ?
>>Robin hood
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>____________________________________
>>>Stoves mailing list
>>>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>>>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Stoves mailing list
>>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>---
>To unsubscribe, send email to majormail at vrac.iastate.edu with
>this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
>---
>
>
>
>---
>To unsubscribe, send email to majormail at vrac.iastate.edu with
>this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
>---
>
>
>

From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Dec 20 05:02:48 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S Anderson)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:02:48 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: charcoal emissions
In-Reply-To: <41C3EA4B.4824.1E1A5C@localhost>
References: <003f01c4e413$35476740$0100a8c0@md>
<41C3EA4B.4824.1E1A5C@localhost>
Message-ID: <1103540568.41c6b158a22b3@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

--
>From Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(in Brazil until 24 Dec 2004)

Dean Still wrote:
<<<<<snip>>>>>
> >
> > 2.) Metering the wood fuel by having only the tips of sticks burn also
> > reduces CO and particulates. Pushing sticks 5 inches into the Rocket
> > combustion chamber results in a hot burn that doesn't make much smoke. CO
> is
> > about half of most un-insulated stoves but particulates are about the same.
>
><<<<<snip >>>>>>
> >
> > When we push the sticks only 2 inches into the Rocket combustion chamber
> CO
> > and particulates are significantly reduced. Seems like the air/fuel ratio,
> > the amount of gases released, the amount of flame created become closer to
> > optimal. I'll hopefully show a movie about this at ETHOS. Seems like
> burning
> > sticks at the ends can make a relatively clean fire.
,,,,,, SNIP ,,,,
> > 4.) Tom Reed's stove (that uses a very small fan) runs pretty darn clean.
> > What an amazing invention!! Tom saves the world!

Combining these two comments, we can say that the slow and controlled
pyrolysis in the Reed gasifier is more like burning the 2 inch tips in the
Rocket instead of the 5 inch insertions of the wood. Slow and controlled is
better.

Tom's gasifier (and my Juntos gasifiers) operate slowly for 20 to 40 minutes
(depending on air flow and fuel types) without user-actions, whereas the 2-
inch insertions of wood into the standard Rocket would require rather frequent
user-action. My work in Brazil (with Rogerio Miranda) at this time includes
making larger fuel chambers for the gasifiers with the intention of increasing
both the time of the burning operation and the ability to use larger pieces of
wood or other dry biomass. (My thanks to Kyle Thompson for pushing me toward
the larger-sized gasifiers.)

I will have results for the ETHOS meeting.

Paul

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu

From aes at bitstream.net Mon Dec 20 13:57:09 2004
From: aes at bitstream.net (Bruce Stahlberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 13:57:09 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Trauma in the Andes: San Juan, Argentina
References: <002e01c4e649$a4b0fc80$6501a8c0@Yellow>
Message-ID: <003301c4e6ce$1738b3e0$0200a8c0@aescmlhs7wpzrm>

Tom,

Did you get contact information for this doctor? Can you share it?

Bruce

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
To: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 10:08 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Trauma in the Andes: San Juan, Argentina

Stovers,

While returning from Santigo to Atlanta this week I sat next to a doctor who
works at a public hospital in San Juan Argentina, near Mendoza. She was very
interested in topics of stoves and health. She told me stories that must be
familiar to many of you. As we discussed cookstoves she had no idea that
gases from cookstoves could cause harm. What she sees are the burn victims,
many of them.

I referred her to the Biomass Cookstoves Website but her interest raised
other questions:

1. Do we have factsheets or brochures in English and Spanish that we can
point to or post on the website that describe the health effects of
cookstove use and possible solutions?
2. Can we make the Spanish version of the website more useful to people
working in medical and social programs in Latin America?
3. Are there other ways that we can use the Biomass Cooking Stoves and other
websites to be more useful in sharing our growing knowledge about stoves and
health?

Happy Holidays

Tom

From rmiranda at inet.com.br Mon Dec 20 14:23:26 2004
From: rmiranda at inet.com.br (Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:23:26 -0200
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Trauma in the Andes: San Juan, Argentina
In-Reply-To: <002e01c4e649$a4b0fc80$6501a8c0@Yellow>
References: <002e01c4e649$a4b0fc80$6501a8c0@Yellow>
Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041220180952.02cb4c78@inet.com.br>

Tom:

The following link is about the danger of woodsmoke in LDC, by BBC/Brasil.
This is in Portuguese, which can be of help to the Spanish speakers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/portuguese/ciencia/story/2003/11/031128_smokeg.shtml

Furthermore, within www.ecofogao.com.br in "artigos", there is another
article about IAP.

A good Spanish text which is about IAP in indigenous communities, but with
a detail background information on IAP studies and results, can be found in:

http://www.cepis.ops-oms.org/bvsapi/e/fulltext/diagnos/diagnos.pdf

Best regards

Rogerio

At 02:08 20/12/2004, Tom Miles wrote:
>Stovers,
>
>While returning from Santigo to Atlanta this week I sat next to a doctor
>who works at a public hospital in San Juan Argentina, near Mendoza. She
>was very interested in topics of stoves and health. She told me stories
>that must be familiar to many of you. As we discussed cookstoves she had
>no idea that gases from cookstoves could cause harm. What she sees are the
>burn victims, many of them.
>
>I referred her to the Biomass Cookstoves Website but her interest raised
>other questions:
>
>1. Do we have factsheets or brochures in English and Spanish that we can
>point to or post on the website that describe the health effects of
>cookstove use and possible solutions?
>2. Can we make the Spanish version of the website more useful to people
>working in medical and social programs in Latin America?
>3. Are there other ways that we can use the Biomass Cooking Stoves and
>other websites to be more useful in sharing our growing knowledge about
>stoves and health?
>
>Happy Holidays
>
>Tom
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Dec 20 21:15:14 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:15:14 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Stove Trauma in the Andes: San Juan, Argentina
References: <002e01c4e649$a4b0fc80$6501a8c0@Yellow>
<6.1.1.1.0.20041220180952.02cb4c78@inet.com.br>
Message-ID: <00a101c4e70b$f6f849e0$6501a8c0@Yellow>

Rogerio,

Muito Obrigado. We'll link to these on the estufas pages.

Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda" <rmiranda at inet.com.br>
To: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>; <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stove Trauma in the Andes: San Juan, Argentina

> Tom:
>
> The following link is about the danger of woodsmoke in LDC, by BBC/Brasil.
> This is in Portuguese, which can be of help to the Spanish speakers.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/portuguese/ciencia/story/2003/11/031128_smokeg.shtml
>
> Furthermore, within www.ecofogao.com.br in "artigos", there is another
> article about IAP.
>
> A good Spanish text which is about IAP in indigenous communities, but
> with a detail background information on IAP studies and results, can be
> found in:
>
> http://www.cepis.ops-oms.org/bvsapi/e/fulltext/diagnos/diagnos.pdf
>
> Best regards
>
> Rogerio
>
>
> At 02:08 20/12/2004, Tom Miles wrote:
>>Stovers,
>>
>>While returning from Santigo to Atlanta this week I sat next to a doctor
>>who works at a public hospital in San Juan Argentina, near Mendoza. She
>>was very interested in topics of stoves and health. She told me stories
>>that must be familiar to many of you. As we discussed cookstoves she had
>>no idea that gases from cookstoves could cause harm. What she sees are the
>>burn victims, many of them.
>>
>>I referred her to the Biomass Cookstoves Website but her interest raised
>>other questions:
>>
>>1. Do we have factsheets or brochures in English and Spanish that we can
>>point to or post on the website that describe the health effects of
>>cookstove use and possible solutions?
>>2. Can we make the Spanish version of the website more useful to people
>>working in medical and social programs in Latin America?
>>3. Are there other ways that we can use the Biomass Cooking Stoves and
>>other websites to be more useful in sharing our growing knowledge about
>>stoves and health?
>>
>>Happy Holidays
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Stoves mailing list
>>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>

From dstill at epud.net Tue Dec 21 10:20:15 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:20:15 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] black and white smoke
Message-ID: <20041221162016.6873626@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Friends,

I had stated a question about black and white smoke as follows:

Dr. Dale Andreatta's comments below are too good not to share: (By the way
he'll be at ETHOS so we can pick his and Tami's brains about this topic.)

Seems I've also been saying this for a while. Actually, anyone who's
studies combustion for a while will say the same thing. Smoke from an
engine has the same white vs. black characteristics. When a diesel engine
starts it often produces a puff or white smoke that is unburned fuel that
has evaporated and then recondensed before the engine got going enough to
produce combustion. And speaking of white smoke, remind me to show you my
candle trick when I'm out there.

I know that the black smoke is soot, particles of nearly pure carbon. I
asked Tami Bond once if one color smoke vs. the other was more harmful, and
as I recall her answer was that we don't know. That would be a very
important question to answer, if it turns out that one type of smoke is not
very harmful, that would make stove design a lot easier.

In stoves the black smoke, I think, doesn't necessarily come from hot
flames, it comes from flames being quenched too rapidly, either be mixing
with cold air rapidly or by being forced to be close to a cool surface (such
as the pot). I've observed this many times in my tests. Also cool flames
that are dull orange rather that bright yellow tend to soot.

From guyiii at cox.net Tue Dec 21 10:41:11 2004
From: guyiii at cox.net (GuyW)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:41:11 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] black and white smoke
References: <20041221162016.6873626@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <00d501c4e77b$e0f2aad0$4701a8c0@guyiiipc>

"Smoke from an engine has the same white vs. black characteristics. When a
diesel engine starts it often produces a puff or white smoke that is
unburned fuel that has evaporated and then recondensed before the engine got
going enough to..."

White smoke from diesels is water, produce much and you're buying a new
one - black is over-rich / too much injected fuel.

I'd hazard a guess that the "white" in white smoke from wood is also
moisture (as well as a lot of other unburned gasses).

-Guy-
newbie

> Dear Friends,
>
> I had stated a question about black and white smoke as follows:
>
> Tami Bond tells me that there are two kinds of particulates: white and
> black. White comes from smoke, smoldering biomass. Black particles come
from
> hot flames. So even when we get rid of smoke we make these nasty black
> particles. The Rocket does not smolder much wood so there are not many
white
> particles but the hot flames make black particles in about the same amount
> as smoky stoves make white particles. Maybe?
>
> Dr. Dale Andreatta's comments below are too good not to share: (By the way
> he'll be at ETHOS so we can pick his and Tami's brains about this topic.)
>
>
> Seems I've also been saying this for a while. Actually, anyone who's
> studies combustion for a while will say the same thing. Smoke from an
> engine has the same white vs. black characteristics. When a diesel engine
> starts it often produces a puff or white smoke that is unburned fuel that
> has evaporated and then recondensed before the engine got going enough to
> produce combustion. And speaking of white smoke, remind me to show you my
> candle trick when I'm out there.
>
> I know that the black smoke is soot, particles of nearly pure carbon. I
> asked Tami Bond once if one color smoke vs. the other was more harmful,
and
> as I recall her answer was that we don't know. That would be a very
> important question to answer, if it turns out that one type of smoke is
not
> very harmful, that would make stove design a lot easier.
>
> In stoves the black smoke, I think, doesn't necessarily come from hot
> flames, it comes from flames being quenched too rapidly, either be mixing
> with cold air rapidly or by being forced to be close to a cool surface
(such
> as the pot). I've observed this many times in my tests. Also cool flames
> that are dull orange rather that bright yellow tend to soot.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.2 - Release Date: 12/20/2004
>
>

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From dstill at epud.net Tue Dec 21 10:47:25 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:47:25 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] FW: Standard of Performance
Message-ID: <20041221164726.C14486E@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Friends,

We are kicking ideas around about a discussion/resolution of a performance
standard for biomass cooking stoves coming out of the ETHOS meeting. Perhaps
a panel discussion or a breakout session? We will also be having another
related discussion about practical methods to reduce Indoor Air Pollution.

Perhaps a performance standard intended for stove disseminators might be
something like:

1.) (At two week long trainings in India the open fire used an average of
1,000 grams of dry wood to boil 5 litres of water.) An improved stove should
significantly decrease fuel use burning up less than 1,000 grams of wood to
boil 5 litres of water in the Shell/UCB Standard Testing Pot.

2.) Cooking stoves with chimneys are exempt from the first standard. Often
stoves with chimneys use more wood than an open fire but more importantly
protect Indoor Air Quality. A.) The stove with chimney must remove all smoke
from the room. A system of training and maintenance that prevents leakage of
dangerous pollution into the living space is necessary. B.)Improved
combustion efficiency in the stove with chimney helps to reduce pollution
released into the common space outside the home and is recommended.

3.) The use of a biomass stove without a functional chimney indoors results
in harmful levels of pollution. To decrease indoor air pollution: A.) Use a
stove with improved combustion efficiency B.) Assist the homeowner to
ventilate the kitchen as much as possible. Preferably un-vented cooking
takes place outdoors under a veranda or in a similar space. C.)Move towards
safer cooking practices such as using a stove with chimney or switching to
cleaner burning fuels.

Anyway, here's a balloon to bop around the room.

What would a helpful standard of performance look like? Miles per Gallon has
helped the public to know the environmental effect of a car. In the same way
a standard of performance could energize the move to improved Indoor Air
Quality and decreased fuel use.

Best,

Dean

From dstill at epud.net Tue Dec 21 18:34:58 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:34:58 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] FW: Rooms for ETHOS January 29-30
Message-ID: <20041222003458.76387D3@telchar.epud.net>

Probably good to make reservations now, mention ETHOS.

Directions can be found and downloaded from website.

Contact:

Dawn Gwordske
Best Western Kirkland Inn
Sales & Marketing Manager
Dir: 425-284-2714
Tel: 425-822-2300 Ext: 2714
Fax: 425-889-9616
Email: Sales at bwkirklandinn.com
Web: www.Bwkirklandinn.com

See 'ya there,

Dean

From pverhaart at iprimus.com.au Wed Dec 22 01:57:02 2004
From: pverhaart at iprimus.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:57:02 +1000
Subject: [Stoves] Attempted theft of 1000 $
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041222174900.01bd4de0@pop.iprimus.com.au>

I attended the 2004 ETHOS conference. I booked a room in advance by
telephone. All my expenses were paid by the organizers of the conference.
Yet when I received a statement from my Mastercard account, 1000 US$ had
been taken from that account.
I rang Kirkland Inn and was put through to the administrator who said he
needed more time to sort this out. He would ring me back.
Nothing of the kind happened. The money was refunded but left me with the
impression that your staff took this matter very casually. There was no
explanation, no mention of a prosecution (this was theft after all). I
wrote a letter which was up to now not replied to. Why should I feel safe
in future to give you my credit card data?

Waiting for your reply,

Regards,

Peter Verhaart

Peter Verhaart
23 McDonald St, Gracemere Q 4702
Tel/fax: +61 7 4933 1761; Mobile 0412 457239
Email: pverhaart at iprimus.com.au

From dstill at epud.net Wed Dec 22 02:16:50 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:16:50 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Attempted theft of 1000 $
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041222174900.01bd4de0@pop.iprimus.com.au>
Message-ID: <20041222081650.0D10628@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Peter,

I had not known about this problem. If you do not receive an adequate
explanation I will follow up when at the hotel.

Best,

Dean

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Verhaart
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:57 PM
To: Sales at bwkirklandinn.com
Cc: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: [Stoves] Attempted theft of 1000 $

Waiting for your reply,

Regards,

Peter Verhaart

Peter Verhaart
23 McDonald St, Gracemere Q 4702
Tel/fax: +61 7 4933 1761; Mobile 0412 457239
Email: pverhaart at iprimus.com.au

From karabi at shellfoundation.net Wed Dec 22 06:50:38 2004
From: karabi at shellfoundation.net (Karabi Dutta)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:20:38 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Stove Trauma in the Andes: San Juan, Argentina
Message-ID: <002f01c4e824$d8115de0$c7e9d6d2@q2n0f4>

Dear Tom,

I think the answer to the question written below would be to refer the
Breathe Easy Network to the doctor mentioned by you. Many of her questions
on health and cookstoves will have answers in this website.

"1. Do we have factsheets or brochures in English and Spanish that we can
point to or post on the website that describe the health effects of
cookstove use and possible solutions?"

Regards,
Karabi.
--
Dr.Karabi Dutta.
Breathe Easy Network India http://india.shellfoundation.net
About me:
http://india.shellfoundation.net/goto.php/User:KarabiDutta
Email me at: karabi at shellfoundation.net
---------------------------------------------------

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Wed Dec 22 14:36:04 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:36:04 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Best Western Kirkland Inn
Message-ID: <n9mjs0hrges1ju2u5nuauu4oaf62qrq86n@4ax.com>

This reply to Peter's earlier message was trapped as bwkirlandinn.com
is not subscribed to stoves. I trust this settles the public side of
the matter and potential customers will make their own minds up. So
let's hope for a bit of seasonal goodwill and keep on striving for
better stove solutions in the new year. Have a good meeting in
Seattle.

AJH

>Subject: Best Western Kirkland Inn
>From: "Chip Veatch" <accounting at bwkirklandinn.com>
>Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:27:30 -0800
>Cc: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>, <dstill at epud.net>
>
>22 Decembre 2004
>
>Dear Mr. Verhaart:
>
>First of all, I would like to extend to you my most sincere apologies for our lack of communication to you regarding the charge to your credit card last February. Your original call had been transferred to me, at which point I turned the file over to our Director of Sales at the time, who was our lead person for the ETHOS conference. She informed me that she would take care of the situation, which she did by correcting the charge to your credit card, and then informing the coordinator of the ETHOS conference (Lutfiyah Ahmed) of the situation and the correction. Our Director of Sales made the assumption that you would be updated by Lutfiyah Ahmed of the situation, but she should have contacted you directly.
>
>Please accept our humble and sincere apologies for the oversight of not contacting you directly to keep you informed of the situation. This was certainly not a theft or an attempt of theft in any way, shape or form; it was an error by a member of our staff who charged your card inadvertently as payment toward the Group Master Billing for the ETHOS Conference. We corrected the error as soon as we were made aware of it. Unfortunately, several of our staff, myself included, assumed the next person down the line would contact you with an explanation and apology, yet did not.
>
>I genuinely hope that this explanation is somewhat satisfactory to you, and that we may have the pleasure of your company during the upcoming ETHOS Conference again this coming January 2005.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>R. E. Chip Veatch, Jr.
>
>Accountant

From ederby at winrock.org Wed Dec 22 16:47:39 2004
From: ederby at winrock.org (Elisa Derby)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:47:39 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Best Western Kirkland Inn
Message-ID: <44EDFA0E46D622429C604D56F59DAAC00138397D@odc.winrock.org>

Thanks for sending this around. Lutfiyah followed-up with Best Western
when Dr. Verhaart did not hear back from them, at which point, to their
credit, they had already reversed the charge (within a day of being
notified). She of course did e-mail Dr. Verhaart to let him know that
things had been straightened out, but it would have been nice to have
received that confirmation from the hotel directly, too-- I'm glad to
see their apology. Note that their explanation below is accurate-- they
did in fact underbill Lisa's credit card by the $1000 that they
incorrectly billed Dr. Verhaart.

cheers,
Elisa

-----Original Message-----
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk [mailto:list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 3:36 PM
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Subject: [Stoves] Best Western Kirkland Inn

This reply to Peter's earlier message was trapped as bwkirlandinn.com is
not subscribed to stoves. I trust this settles the public side of the
matter and potential customers will make their own minds up. So let's
hope for a bit of seasonal goodwill and keep on striving for better
stove solutions in the new year. Have a good meeting in Seattle.

AJH

>contacting you directly to keep you informed of the situation. This was

>certainly not a theft or an attempt of theft in any way, shape or form;

>it was an error by a member of our staff who charged your card
>inadvertently as payment toward the Group Master Billing for the ETHOS
>Conference. We corrected the error as soon as we were made aware of it.

>Unfortunately, several of our staff, myself included, assumed the next
>person down the line would contact you with an explanation and apology,

>yet did not.
>
>I genuinely hope that this explanation is somewhat satisfactory to you,

>and that we may have the pleasure of your company during the upcoming
>ETHOS Conference again this coming January 2005.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>R. E. Chip Veatch, Jr.
>
>Accountant

From dstill at epud.net Wed Dec 22 20:01:12 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:01:12 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Best Western Kirkland Inn
In-Reply-To: <44EDFA0E46D622429C604D56F59DAAC00138397D@odc.winrock.org>
Message-ID: <20041223020112.7BC3F52@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Stovers:

I think that the Best Western Kirkland Inn and all involved have followed up
quite nicely. I've always found the Kirkland Inn staff to be helpful and
professional. In fact, several receptionists really outdid themselves last
year assisting the ETHOS members. Of course, the Winrock staff were as
incredible as always. Happy that Peter's misfortune was accidental.

Looking forward to another exuberant meeting. I hear that fire dancers might
widen the scope of our scrutiny...

Dean

From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Dec 22 22:11:05 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:11:05 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Stove Trauma in the Andes: San Juan, Argentina
References: <002f01c4e824$d8115de0$c7e9d6d2@q2n0f4>
Message-ID: <016001c4e8a7$4dad1df0$6501a8c0@Yellow>

Thanks. Keep up the good work!

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Karabi Dutta" <karabi at shellfoundation.net>
To: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:50 AM
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Stove Trauma in the Andes: San Juan, Argentina

> Dear Tom,
>
> I think the answer to the question written below would be to refer the
> Breathe Easy Network to the doctor mentioned by you. Many of her questions
> on health and cookstoves will have answers in this website.
>
> "1. Do we have factsheets or brochures in English and Spanish that we can
> point to or post on the website that describe the health effects of
> cookstove use and possible solutions?"
>
> Regards,
> Karabi.
> --
> Dr.Karabi Dutta.
> Breathe Easy Network India http://india.shellfoundation.net
> About me:
> http://india.shellfoundation.net/goto.php/User:KarabiDutta
> Email me at: karabi at shellfoundation.net
> ---------------------------------------------------
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>

From pverhaart at iprimus.com.au Thu Dec 23 06:14:43 2004
From: pverhaart at iprimus.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:14:43 +1000
Subject: [Stoves] Best Western Kirkland Inn
In-Reply-To: <20041223020112.7BC3F52@telchar.epud.net>
References: <44EDFA0E46D622429C604D56F59DAAC00138397D@odc.winrock.org>
<20041223020112.7BC3F52@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041223220623.01b2a710@pop.iprimus.com.au>

At 12:01 23/12/04, you wrote:
>Dear Stovers:
>
>I think that the Best Western Kirkland Inn and all involved have followed up
>quite nicely. I've always found the Kirkland Inn staff to be helpful and
>professional. In fact, several receptionists really outdid themselves last
>year assisting the ETHOS members. Of course, the Winrock staff were as
>incredible as always. Happy that Peter's misfortune was accidental.
>
>Looking forward to another exuberant meeting. I hear that fire dancers might
>widen the scope of our scrutiny...
>
>Dean

I agree completely, my only (very minor) complaint was that the chair at
the writing desk was too big. I liked the room, the breakfast and the
attitude of the staff.
I became very suspicious when I saw the amount was exactly 1000 $ and that
suggested an individual quick rich attempt. Apparently an amount of 1000 $
was really involved, it only got taken off the wrong credit card.

Merry Xmas and a happy New Year to all including the Best Western Kirkland Inn.

Peter Verhaart

>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Thu Dec 23 14:43:57 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:43:57 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Backpacker's stoves
Message-ID: <bvams093ik2ed4o75p2lnqr5b78p6aoa15@4ax.com>

http://home.comcast.net/~agmann/stove/index.htm

has been sent in, some of the pages look familiar but I only had a
cursory look so far, the how stoves work is interesting. Not strictly
of relevance to this group but it might elicit some useful comment.

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Thu Dec 23 14:45:20 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:45:20 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Christmas greetings
Message-ID: <shbms01tec1s7d7kuf4d378nuqt3gk81lv@4ax.com>

Ronal has asked this to be forwarded to the list, I believe Yuri is
subscribed with another address. It seems Yuri's mailhost is bouncing
messages from addresses in a local blacklist, repp and qwest seem to
be in this blacklist so messages are not getting through.

I too am interested in large scale charcoaling and its place in a
renewable energy strategy, I still think the bioconversion list is a
good vehicle to discuss this. I'm not sure whether to take the lack of
response to this idea as that people are not interested in the subject
or they would prefer to discuss it on Stoves. AJH

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:34:40 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:

> From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson atqwest.net>
> To: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru
> Cc: "stoves" <stoves at listserve.repp.org>
> Subject: Christmas greetings

>
> Yury:
>
> Thank you very much for the lovely Christmas card just received in =
> today's e-mail. Gretchen and I wish the same greetings to you and your =
> family.
>
>
> I have been as quiet on "stoves" as have you - but we both I think =
> are still quite busy. In particular I am beginning to place a large =
> amount of my time on the subject of greatly increasing renewable energy =
> from the agriculture and forestry sectors of our economy. It appears =
> that there is a sufficiently large voting sector of the American =
> populace who can get behind this rural approach - so as to get the =
> attention of our administration and Congress. Anyway, I am hoping.
> =20
> Your signature line added (for the first time?) "Bioenergy LMTD S." =
> When "Stoves" last heard from you, you were returning, I believe, from =
> a new large charcoaling operation in far Northeastern Russia. Could you =
> report on how that work and your own company are progressing? I =
> receive inquiries sometimes on large scale clean charcoaling and wonder =
> if you are available for contract work?
>
> If you send answers to me (maybe best in both Russian and English), =
> I will forward to "stoves". I am particularly interested in your =
> estimates of efficiency of conversion, pollutant levels, and =
> cost-competitiveness of your product - as a function of the scale of =
> operation. In Russia, is this being done sustainably? Is there any =
> growing tie-in with the recently Russian-signed (thank goodness) Kyoto =
> protocols?
>
>
> Stovers - This being the first such Christmas card I ever received from =
> Russia, I greatly enjoyed it and can forward it to any other stovers to =
> see the Russian equivalent of what we have here in this country. For =
> those who did not have a chance to meet Yury at the Pune meeting =
> organized by the Karves - you missed a chance to know a wonderful, =
> bright, happy charcoaling expert - who contributed greatly to "stoves' =
> about 5 years ago.
>
> I join with Yury in sending the same Holiday sentiments on to the =
> whole Stoves list membership.
>
> Ron

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Dec 23 17:33:48 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:33:48 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] this guy known to us? Is he subscribed
Message-ID: <002001c4e947$e2fd7df0$838cfea9@home>

Dear Stove Turfer-uppers

I am not sure if the Zen Seeker is subscribed to this group. He has an
interesting site for camp stoves.

http://home.comcast.net/~agmann/stove/index.htm

Regards
Crispin

PS I am on the road for a week and will surface in Toronto on the 1st.
Have a Happy Holiday(s)!

From rmiranda at inet.com.br Thu Dec 23 18:17:15 2004
From: rmiranda at inet.com.br (Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:17:15 -0200
Subject: [Stoves] Backpacker's stoves
In-Reply-To: <bvams093ik2ed4o75p2lnqr5b78p6aoa15@4ax.com>
References: <bvams093ik2ed4o75p2lnqr5b78p6aoa15@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041223221348.02592e90@inet.com.br>

Certainly a must see site. Very interesting ideas, and I was impress how
simple can be an ethanol stove.

Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it.

Rog?rio

At 18:43 23/12/2004, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:
>http://home.comcast.net/~agmann/stove/index.htm
>
>has been sent in, some of the pages look familiar but I only had a
>cursory look so far, the how stoves work is interesting. Not strictly
>of relevance to this group but it might elicit some useful comment.
>
>AJH
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From ronallarson at qwest.net Fri Dec 24 14:30:25 2004
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:30:25 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Yuri and charcoal making
Message-ID: <079d01c4e9f7$67748560$0f630443@fats>

Stovers:

1. Andrew has helped a great deal in closing the loop with Yuri - enabling me to get an e-mail today from him saying in part (with some minor editing).

Dear Ron,

I am very glad to receive your letter. ...(personal) ..... I continue with activity. (Two plants) were built and have begun to work ... this year. We have elected (to employ) a rigid (continuous?) line - we design only non-polluting plants. We managed to .. (change the) tradition of our woodcutters - ..(to use) primitive plants, which ... make coal (wastefully), and vapours and gas will reject in air. Our plants economize heat - vapours and gas burn down in a furnace. Our plants (are) more expensive, than handicraft, but the state has boosted the control and the businessmen exhibit concern. We have made a site http://bioenergy-spb.narod.ru/index.html It is the Russian text only. I have not found time to make the English version... . The site has many photos, you can them see. I shall be grateful, if you write, what information in English I should transmit to you. I am grateful Tom Miles, which one has sent your letter. I do not realize, why I have not received it directly. It is .... a problem of the providers.

....... (personal)...

Be happy in New Year and after it.

Yours Yury

2. The main point of this is to encourage a view of the web site above, which will not be easy for most of us until Yuri sometime in the future gets it also in English. But my guess is that this site gives as much information as one is apt to find on modern (non-polluting) charcoal making.
Across the top of the home page are 9 categories to click on. The useful ones for most of us are the 3rd and 4th from left which show 6 and 9 photos of their charcoaling operation. This is batch consisting of 14 large (almost closed) "cans" that are sequentially replaced as the interiors turn to charcoal - with the pyrolysis gases (exiting from the bottoms) combusting to dry out and transform the interior wood to charcoal. This is much like the approach used by the Karves (who developed it based on Yuri's design I believe) on a smaller portable scale - with waste ag products rather than wood.

3. To Yuri - I hope he might give us brief answers to these questions?
a. Tons per day in and out (efficiency of conversion - both by weight and nergy content)
b. Relative value of the charcoal to wood, oil, gas, electricity, etc on the basis of rubles/kg and rubles per Megajoule (with exchange rates). Where does the product typically go?
c. Labor requirements and any other major inputs? Time per can?
d. Problems and lessons learned? Has all local polluting production been prohibited?
e. How are you meauring emissions?
f. Your availability for consulting or plant construction?

4. Thanks again (now on Christmas Eve - so happy holidays (especially again !)

Ron

From yark at uiuc.edu Sun Dec 26 00:28:11 2004
From: yark at uiuc.edu (Tami Bond)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:28:11 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] black and white smoke
In-Reply-To: <00d501c4e77b$e0f2aad0$4701a8c0@guyiiipc>
References: <20041221162016.6873626@telchar.epud.net>
<00d501c4e77b$e0f2aad0$4701a8c0@guyiiipc>
Message-ID: <41CE59FB.8060407@uiuc.edu>

White smoke from diesels can also be unburned fuel or lube oil, just as
from stoves. Diesels (or other cars) that smoke white may have leakage
past the piston rings.

Water may also contribute, of course.

The black particles do come from flames, but can be burnt out if you
keep the exhaust hot long enough. We saw amazing differences in our lab,
simply by adding a 10-cm, thick ceramic chimney atop the combustion
chamber.

cheers
Tami

From tombreed at comcast.net Mon Dec 27 08:01:09 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (TBReed)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 07:01:09 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] black and white smoke
In-Reply-To: <41CE59FB.8060407@uiuc.edu>
References: <20041221162016.6873626@telchar.epud.net> <00d501c4e77b$e0f2aad0$4701a8c0@guyiiipc>
<41CE59FB.8060407@uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <41D015A5.9080901@comcast.net>

Tami and All:

And don't forget glycol, from a leaking head gasket as a major
contributor of toxic white smoke.

TOM REED

Tami Bond wrote:

> White smoke from diesels can also be unburned fuel or lube oil, just
> as from stoves. Diesels (or other cars) that smoke white may have
> leakage past the piston rings.
>
> Water may also contribute, of course.
>
> The black particles do come from flames, but can be burnt out if you
> keep the exhaust hot long enough. We saw amazing differences in our
> lab, simply by adding a 10-cm, thick ceramic chimney atop the
> combustion chamber.
>
> cheers
> Tami
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Mon Dec 27 16:07:27 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:07:27 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Charcoaling
Message-ID: <9eu0t0dfbpl71mcbi4d9h8r07fd1m24d4n@4ax.com>

Stovers, please find below an exchange between Ronal and Yury with
regard to the process Yury has shown us on his website, if you have
not seen it yet it looks like Tom Miles has beaten me to providing a
mirrored site in english so a faster connection may soon be available.

With special thoughts for those in the troubled waters of the disaster
in the indian ocean, at least one of the list posts from Sri Lanka,
Ray W.

AJH

********

From: Yury
To: Ron Larson
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 3:12 AM
Subject:

There are two projects: 1. Productivity - 5-6 tons per day charcoal
or 50-60 cubic metre of fire wood

2. Productivity - 2-3 tons per day charcoal or 20-30 cubic metre of
fire wood.

Efficiency of conversion depends on the desired quality of the
charcoal. It is possible to make a charcoal which contains 94 %
Carboneum - it will be 28-30 % from initial timber. It is also
possible to make a charcoal which contains 80 % Carboneum, with an
efficiency of 34-36 % from initial timber. About 55 % of the energy
of timber passes in to the charcoal.

> b. Relative value of the charcoal to wood, oil, gas, electricity, etc on the basis of rubles/kg and rubles per Megajoule (with exchange rates).

> Where does the product typically go?

Charcoal is three times more expensive fuel than gas. Many
customers are in industry (metallurgy, clean silicon and others). Its
require the restorer (not phosphorated and sulfur.

A very large household customer base is also present in Asia.
Their traditions require applying charcoal to cooking. The Japanese
use 60 kilograms per person per year for "Hibacy" (In America:
"Hibachi" - small usually cast-iron "grate" for consuming charcoal)
and other purposes. Europeans use 20-25 kilograms per person for
barbeque and chimneys. Russians use approximately 150 grammes, but 2
years back used 60 grammes. For the inhabitants of large and rich
cities (Moscow, St. Petersburg, Novgorod and others), household
consumption is growing very fast. The new rules prohibit selling
vodka that is not furbished (filtered?) through activated charcoal;
this industry is becoming a large customer.

> c. Labor requirements and any other major inputs? Time per can?

The plant works continuously. One retort stands in an ardent
(heating?) zone 6-8 hours. The period of the installation of retorts
is shifted in time. One retort is taken out and is put on cooling
every 40 minutes - 1 hour . The retort cools down for 6-8 hours. One
retort is freed from coal and boots (re-filled?) by fire wood each
hour.

> d. Problems and lessons learned? Has all local polluting production been prohibited?

>e. How are you measuring emissions?

The monitoring labs checked up our plants in each place, where
they work. They have permitted activity without limitations.

> f. Your availability for consulting or plant construction?

We make this all in Russia. We can make it and in other
countries. A main problem - my English language. It is not becoming
better after our meeting in Pune. A translator is required for normal
contacts and it poorly.

I thank you for kind attention and I wish to all your family
-
prosperity and health.

Sincerely yours

Yury
**********

Yuri: Thanks so much for your reply. A few more questions:
I am still uncertain on proving the relative long term
merits of what you are doing. You are doing good by stopping the
practice of producing charcoal badly (much pollution - worse than
CO2) in the woods. You are displacing some fossil fuels - with
global climate change benefits. You are gaining export currency and
providing jobs. But how can we/you be certain of the long-term
sustainability of what you are doing? Are you certain this is the
wisest use of the enormous forests that I believe surround your two
charcoal-making facilities? In particular, I am still worried that
much of the useful energy is being lost. Can you capture any more
for electrical production? How much of the waste energy is being
used for drying the input timber? How long does the timber sit for
"seasoning"? And what sort of return on investment (a simple
payback time in years?) is being found for these facilities - and
could/should they be larger? Are you looking for investors? Does
this sort of facility count for Kyoto credits? How valuable would
that be?

Your English is coming through fine! Hope this is not taking too
much of your time in translating for us.

I join all stovers in wishing you, your friends, and relatives
also
- a Happy New Year!

Ron

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Tue Dec 28 14:56:18 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:56:18 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Your questions
Message-ID: <e4h3t055bd09rjjnbnhv909fsf46veeiab@4ax.com>

This is more of the exchange between Yury and Ronal. The reason Ronal
cannot post it directly to the list is that his mail client (outlook
distress) is set to reply in whatever character set the inbound mail
arrived with, instead of using good old vanilla flavoured us-ascii. So
mailman at stoves at listserv.repp.org rejects the post. In this case
because charset="koi8-r" was in the mime header. Perhaps someone
familiar with OExpress could mail Ronal with instructions how to
default to text/us-ascii?

It may well also explain other peoples difficulties, Yury for instance
will be using a character set containing the cyrillic characters his
language is written in. Mailman bounces this back to his mailserver as
unacceptable character set, this causes Yury's mailserver to decide
listserv.repp.org is a spammer, bounces it back and blacklists
repp.org, so mailman unsubcribes Yury and then we cannot talk to each
other, like the tower of babel really, still let's cut back to the
chase. AJH:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:11:04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:

Stovers:

This is a reponse from Dr. Yuri that I have again modified a bit
for ease for English speakers (hopefully not changing any sense)..
In the first part, Yuri convinces me that his approach is indeed
sustainable, after saying a bit more on the market as well. He
doesn't say so, but rotting of dead trees in the forest produces
considerable CH4 first- which is much worse as a global warming gas.

In the second part, Yuri talks of the frustration of being unable
to communicate in English - a frustration I have had in quite a few
countries as well. But it is better to take this route of starting
with machine translation and making a few guesses than of not trying
at all. I don't know anything about machine translations - but it
must be getting better.

The importance of this to me is mainly in doing everything
possible to eliminate the very poor charcoal conversions usually
practiced in the field and it seems that Dr. Yuri is a leader in this
field who we in "stoves" should be encouraging. I am still hopeful
that he and others can make more productive use of the "waste" gases,
however. There must be thousands of places in the world where we are
burning biomass that could co-produce charcoal instead. I am still
hopeful of learning that charcoal as a soil additive makes economic
sense.

Ron

Dear Ron,

I think that to think of charcoal as a customary/usual fuel is the
wrong approach. Do you fire your chimney sometimes with a chunk of a
paper? Is the paper then exactly a fuel? Charcoal alone is an
accessible carbon material, which 1. does not contain sulfur and
phosphorum; 2. Does not give at combustion CO, but only CO2.

Brasil makes 7.5 million MTA charcoal. All the remaining world makes
less than 1 million tons. Russia makes 70-80 thousand tons. The Soviet
Union made 400 thousand tons in the most stable times. Russia is
one-third part a global forest. Many trees die from old age and decay
in the forest. The territory of Russia is very lengthy, with a lot of
northern territories having a small density of population. But most of
our forests are present there. A large fraction of the territory has
poor transport and communications. Coniferous trees, which Russia
removes and sells is only a small part that it is possible to take in
a forest without harm for its prosperity. The law requires, that all
mature forest should be cut. The deciduous timber will be used only in
european Russia and about large cities. The suppliers are compelled to
take out deciduous timber and to incinerate it in the warehouses to
make new plantings of coniferous trees. Russia is rich in gas and oil.
Boilers incinerating fire
wood can not use all the waste. The Kyoto accords have eliminated
combustion of timber from a list of sources of Carbon dioxide, because
this gas will be given off upon rotting. We make charcoal and
incinerate the vapour and gases. We receive water and Carbon dioxide
not taken into account in the Kyoto accords providing both an elite
comfortable fuel to be used by the high class. The standard of living
in Russia grows step-by-step. Many people have had an opportunity to
build country houses with chimneys and a barbeque. They have money and
want to live in Russia as the upper middle class lives in USA. The
briquettes from charcoal and charcoal in packets made in USA have
appeared some years back in racks of St. Petersburg.

These are 2 times more expensive than the Russian clone, but they are
accepted while other charcoal was not. Many small-sized producers have
appeared in Russian forests, because of the demand.

They poisoned the forest with their activity. The Chinese now make
coal in the Far East. The majority of these people cross the boundary
illegally. They will use an awful know-how and poison/kill more
forests than they will use. They remove the charcoal as contraband and
sell it in Japan. One newspaper has written recently that the chief of
one locale of the Amur area (in Russia) has signed an agreement with
the chief of the adjacent locale in China. The Chinese will build
plants and take out charcoal. The journalist thinks that it is good. I
know Chinese "know-how" and I realize that there will be a cruel
destruction of a forest. Such situation causes me to think that we do
business useful both for Russia and for a civilized world.

I love good compliments. But the complimentary words concerning my
English language is a pity to me. I am absolutely not capable to
understand living speech and my own English speech is very primitive.
I very much love English fiction and have read all its masterpieces
from Shakespeare in translations in Russian. I realize that the
English language is rich and refined. I regret that I had not time to
learn it earlier and it is late to do so at 70 years. I recall as the
people from miscellaneous countries and continents sat in a Pune cafe
in the evening, they joked, laughed, threw each other plants as balls.
Two Russian man sat there and smiled to not show they understand
nothing . It was awful!

I thank you for efforts to activate me on the stoves list. I thank you
for your kindness and concern on my activities.

I appreciate your friendship and I hope, that we still can see each
other.

Sincerely yours

----- Original Message -----
From: Yury
To: Ron Larson
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 3:47 AM
Subject: Your questions

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Tue Dec 28 16:51:02 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:51:02 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: charcoal emissions
In-Reply-To: <20041217175643.E484A186@telchar.epud.net>
References: <003f01c4e413$35476740$0100a8c0@md>
<20041217175643.E484A186@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <1ok3t0dpvrbaqe9i1t91lasch36cgj888p@4ax.com>

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:56:42 -0800, Dean Still wrote:

>
>I was surprised that we saw a lot of particulates as well as CO and that
>heating up the combustion made it worse.

I'll revisit this old one to stimulate a bit of stoves context on the
list as I sit out another of life's milestones.

It would wouldn't it, unless you apply external heat the only way to
heat it up is to raise the airflow, this in turn raises the fire bed
temperature and changes the equilibrium from a CO2 producer to a CO
producer and the increase massflow in a larger volume means higher
flue velocities, hence more particulates, in this case fly ash.

>Basically we saw higher firepower
>resulting in higher levels of CO and particulates. Insulating the combustion
>chamber, getting hot air to the fire resulted in a faster but not cleaner
>burn.

Again the higher temperature is driving the reaction toward the
smaller molecule and increasing the chance of a CO2 molecule being
reduced to CO

>CO is high anyway and got to more lethal levels when charcoal burned
>hotter and faster.

Because these simple "bucket" devices have no proper provision for any
secondary burning.

>
>This year we tested the 20 cooking stoves from around the world for fuel
>efficiency, emissions under a hood, and emissions in a Test Kitchen. Thanks
>to Murdock Foundation, Shell Foundation and the Partnership for Clean Indoor
>Air! We noticed that at all stages of the burn shutting the door under the
>charcoal, reducing updraft into the fire, cut CO and particulates.

As I would expect, you are changing the device from an updraught CO
generator to a diffuse surface combustion of Carbon to CO2.

>
>Tami Bond tells me that there are two kinds of particulates: white and
>black. White comes from smoke, smoldering biomass. Black particles come from
>hot flames.

Tom Reed characterised some of this back in the discussion on burning
pine resin, with his flame length test, this being a test of the power
limit of a diffuse flame and dependent on the chemistry of the fuel.
If the fuel gas has been generated by pyrolysis in the firebed and
there is by definition a reducing atmosphere, then as it rises into an
oxygen rich secondary combustion zone it starts to oxidise, if in the
time available, as it rises through the flame, it meets enough oxygen
at the boundary between fuel gas and air it will burn out cleanly. If
the reaction is quenched before completion then the oxygen is going to
grab a bit of hydrogen for preference and leave a carbon atom to
wonder on and join other carbon atoms or other pics and leave the hot
flaming region to cool down and form a clump of soot. As conditions
outside the flame are cooler it becomes very unlikely it will get hot
enough to burn out even in the presence of oxygen. To get round this
you can premix a bit of oxygen with the fuel gas such that the flame
immediately has the right fuel:air ratio and velocity for a clean
burn, keep the combustion chamber above the spontaneous combustion
temperature of the pics or have a catalyst to lower the temperauter at
which the pics will burn. Tom Reed adopts the premixing of air:fuel
and a bit of extra turbulance to have clean secondary combustion.

AJH

From pverhaart at iprimus.com.au Wed Dec 29 06:16:31 2004
From: pverhaart at iprimus.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:16:31 +1000
Subject: [Stoves] Your questions
In-Reply-To: <e4h3t055bd09rjjnbnhv909fsf46veeiab@4ax.com>
References: <e4h3t055bd09rjjnbnhv909fsf46veeiab@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041229221345.01be5770@pop.iprimus.com.au>

At 06:56 29/12/04, you wrote:
>This is more of the exchange between Yury and Ronal. The reason Ronal
>cannot post it directly to the list is that his mail client (outlook
>distress) is set to reply

As Freudian an error if ever there was. And a very apt description as well.

Peter Verhaart

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Wed Dec 29 07:24:57 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:24:57 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Your questions
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041229221345.01be5770@pop.iprimus.com.au>
References: <e4h3t055bd09rjjnbnhv909fsf46veeiab@4ax.com>
<6.1.2.0.2.20041229221345.01be5770@pop.iprimus.com.au>
Message-ID: <b0b5t0pg4lrjnalea4hjj8tj257blnjnvd@4ax.com>

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:16:31 +1000, Peter Verhaart wrote:

>
>As Freudian an error if ever there was. And a very apt description as well.

There was no error, Freudian or otherwise :-)

It was interesting to see an implication that Yury reads this list
using a software language translation. I downloaded and read his site
using alta vista's babelfish and could understand most of it. So the
disparity between these character sets is a problem that has not been
considered.

I put M$oft's integrated bundling of software with americanised
default settings alongside Nestles issuing free milk replacement
powder to new mothers in the third world, as an unscrupulous means to
create a dependency, despite having an admiration for the way this
software empire has enabled the spread of IT throughout the world in
such a short space of time.

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Wed Dec 29 08:27:04 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:27:04 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Your questions
Message-ID: <r1f5t0psgm26qrkp01ale7iomgsqqtth89@4ax.com>

It seems we're reaching Russia with no problems, Yury you should reset
the to: address to STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG as we default to reply to
sender to trap automated replies propagating to the whole list.
AJH

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:05:57 +0300, Yury wrote:

Friends,

I read this text and all archive Stoves without difficulties. It has
come on
my address normally. Only some letters from Ron come with a plenty of
service badges. I addressed to Alkor. I think, they have made that
that.

Best regards

Yury

From f.martirena at enet.cu Wed Dec 29 10:13:15 2004
From: f.martirena at enet.cu (Fernando Martirena)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:13:15 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Sawdust usage for income generation?
References: <pnhtn0pcl8rifgs92ar7s5qlhsg7i9det9@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <065b01c4edc3$5a841df0$0100007f@FMartirenaH>

Dear stovers

A couple of years ago I posted an article on our work on the manufacture of
what we call "solid fuel block" (bloque s?lido combustible, BSC), which is
basically a briquette made of pressed biomass bound with some clay. With
some 20% clay and 80% biomass, at approximately 10% humidity we can
manufacture a block targeting a 500 kg/m3 density, which dries on the open
in almost a week and burns yielding a calorific value around 12-17 kJ/g,
depending on the type of biomass used. The ash resulting from high
temperature combustion, as that of lime burning or firing bricks, turns up
to be a highly reactive pozzolan, which we use to manufacture a local
lime-pozzolan cement. For further details please visit our webseite
www.ecosur.org

We have had interesting experiences by using sawdust to produce our BSCs.
The success is not only economic, but also social, since we are able to
create many local jobs, especially for women and disable people.

We are now entering a new phase in which we are exploring with other sources
of biomass, such as woody wastes. We are starting a project to use bamboo
wastes (during harvesting and processing), which shall be shredded in a
small portable shredder and then pressed into our BSC. This information is
also at our website.

Paralell to this we have also developed appropriate machinery, especially
the press. During this process we have received (and are grateful for)
interesting recommendations from some of the stove list members. These
recommendations have been incorporated into our new designs, currnently in
use. We provide this machine, as well as the know how to interested parties.

Kind regards

fernando martirena
_____________________________
Jos? Fernando Martirena Hern?ndez (Prof. Dr. habil)
Universidad Central de las Villas
Facultad de Construcciones. CIDEM
Carretera a Camajuani km 5
Santa Clara. Villa Clara. Cuba
tel: ++53 42 281065 / 281064
fax: ++53 42 281539
e-mail: F.Martirena at enet.cu

----- Original Message -----
From: <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:52 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Sawdust usage for income generation?

> This non member submission seems on topic, just up ELK's street, not
> to mention Crow Industries. I wonder if Ray knows this agency?
>
> AJH
>
> From: "National Development Foundation" <Irangani at lanka.ccom.lk>
> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:17:37 +0600
>
> Dear friends,
> Ours is a Non-governmental, non-profit making organisation devoted to
> development through self-help development programmes. We also carryout
> environmental protection programmes with local communities in Sri
> Lanka.
>
> Recently we were informed of a long-standing problem in a suburban
> city, due to sawdust. There are large numbers of sawmills, carpentry
> workshops and woodwork centers in the area. They produce tons and tons
> of saw dust and dump them into the nearby lake polluting the area.
> Recently the government has no other alternative, but found another
> dumping site and the sawdust is now dumped in this site spending large
> sums of money for transportation. For a developing country like ours
> this type of spending is unaffordable.
>
> We have been trying to find a solution to re-cycle and use saw dust.
> As we understand, it is possible to make Sawdust Bars - fire logs,
> briquettes etc or even insulating boards if properly experimented. We
> were also made to understand that there are many organisations,
> private sector companies engaged in this business.
>
> We thought of searching for a simple technology that could be
> introduced to the low-income generation groups in the area, especially
> to the women, who could produce some type of an item to the market,
> could be a fire log, a briquette or an item that could be used in
> daily life.
>
> If we could introduce this type of a technology then it will help the
> poor to generate income. On the other side it will arrest the
> pollution problem in the area and save public money that is spent at
> present for clearing and dumping.
>
> Considering the above we are very much obliged if you could help us in
> finding a technological enterprise who would willing to conduct an
> investigation on this matter.
>
> Since ours is a NGO, we are unable to fund such a programme. If the
> programme proves to be successful, we may be able to convince a
> suitable and sympathetic funding agency to support the initial stages
> of this challenging project.
>
> We sincerely hope that you will give your sympathetic consideration to
> this request.
> Thanking you and hoping to hear from you favourably,
> Sincerely yours,
> Upali
> Upali Magedaragamage
> NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT FOUNDATION.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From dstill at epud.net Wed Dec 29 11:53:48 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:53:48 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Clean Burning of Wood
Message-ID: <20041229175349.A860C45@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Friends,

One of the results from our recent study of 21 cooking stoves is a pleasant
surprise. I was not sure a year ago if it was possible to burn wood cleanly.
But recent tests have shown that by blowing air up through the combustion
chamber both CO and particulates seem to be dramatically reduced. Testing
shows wood being burnt almost as cleanly as gaseous fuels.

The primary air is not preheated and shoots up through very tiny holes in
the bottom of the combustion chamber creating very good mixing. Seems to me
that improved mixing is maybe the answer to clean combustion.

We'll bring this stove to ETHOS. I think that it would pass Kirk Smith's cat
pee test (burn cat pee without smell). Let's see there...I'll bring the cat
pee.

Best,

Dean

From rbarjon at tampabay.rr.com Wed Dec 29 18:41:26 2004
From: rbarjon at tampabay.rr.com (regine barjon)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:41:26 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 5, Issue 30
References: <20041229170013.05F8029B3A@ns2.misteam.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c4ee08$4d5ee430$1101a8c0@dbarjon>

what kinds of wood make the best charcoal?
Would cedar, pine, oak make good charcoal material?
How does one prevent the high smoke factor?
Is it during the carbonization process?
Or do different types of wood make more smoke thna others?

Thank you,

regine
----- Original Message -----
From: <stoves-request at listserv.repp.org>
To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 5, Issue 30

> Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
> stoves at listserv.repp.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> stoves-request at listserv.repp.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> stoves-owner at listserv.repp.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Your questions (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
> 2. Re: RE: charcoal emissions (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
> 3. Re: Your questions (Peter Verhaart)
> 4. Re: Your questions (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
> 5. Re: Your questions (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
> 6. Re: Sawdust usage for income generation? (Fernando Martirena)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:56:18 +0000
> From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
> Subject: [Stoves] Your questions
> To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <e4h3t055bd09rjjnbnhv909fsf46veeiab at 4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> This is more of the exchange between Yury and Ronal. The reason Ronal
> cannot post it directly to the list is that his mail client (outlook
> distress) is set to reply in whatever character set the inbound mail
> arrived with, instead of using good old vanilla flavoured us-ascii. So
> mailman at stoves at listserv.repp.org rejects the post. In this case
> because charset="koi8-r" was in the mime header. Perhaps someone
> familiar with OExpress could mail Ronal with instructions how to
> default to text/us-ascii?
>
> It may well also explain other peoples difficulties, Yury for instance
> will be using a character set containing the cyrillic characters his
> language is written in. Mailman bounces this back to his mailserver as
> unacceptable character set, this causes Yury's mailserver to decide
> listserv.repp.org is a spammer, bounces it back and blacklists
> repp.org, so mailman unsubcribes Yury and then we cannot talk to each
> other, like the tower of babel really, still let's cut back to the
> chase. AJH:
>
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:11:04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
>
> Stovers:
>
> This is a reponse from Dr. Yuri that I have again modified a bit
> for ease for English speakers (hopefully not changing any sense)..
> In the first part, Yuri convinces me that his approach is indeed
> sustainable, after saying a bit more on the market as well. He
> doesn't say so, but rotting of dead trees in the forest produces
> considerable CH4 first- which is much worse as a global warming gas.
>
> In the second part, Yuri talks of the frustration of being unable
> to communicate in English - a frustration I have had in quite a few
> countries as well. But it is better to take this route of starting
> with machine translation and making a few guesses than of not trying
> at all. I don't know anything about machine translations - but it
> must be getting better.
>
> The importance of this to me is mainly in doing everything
> possible to eliminate the very poor charcoal conversions usually
> practiced in the field and it seems that Dr. Yuri is a leader in this
> field who we in "stoves" should be encouraging. I am still hopeful
> that he and others can make more productive use of the "waste" gases,
> however. There must be thousands of places in the world where we are
> burning biomass that could co-produce charcoal instead. I am still
> hopeful of learning that charcoal as a soil additive makes economic
> sense.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> Dear Ron,
>
> I think that to think of charcoal as a customary/usual fuel is the
> wrong approach. Do you fire your chimney sometimes with a chunk of a
> paper? Is the paper then exactly a fuel? Charcoal alone is an
> accessible carbon material, which 1. does not contain sulfur and
> phosphorum; 2. Does not give at combustion CO, but only CO2.
>
> Brasil makes 7.5 million MTA charcoal. All the remaining world makes
> less than 1 million tons. Russia makes 70-80 thousand tons. The Soviet
> Union made 400 thousand tons in the most stable times. Russia is
> one-third part a global forest. Many trees die from old age and decay
> in the forest. The territory of Russia is very lengthy, with a lot of
> northern territories having a small density of population. But most of
> our forests are present there. A large fraction of the territory has
> poor transport and communications. Coniferous trees, which Russia
> removes and sells is only a small part that it is possible to take in
> a forest without harm for its prosperity. The law requires, that all
> mature forest should be cut. The deciduous timber will be used only in
> european Russia and about large cities. The suppliers are compelled to
> take out deciduous timber and to incinerate it in the warehouses to
> make new plantings of coniferous trees. Russia is rich in gas and oil.
> Boilers incinerating fire
> wood can not use all the waste. The Kyoto accords have eliminated
> combustion of timber from a list of sources of Carbon dioxide, because
> this gas will be given off upon rotting. We make charcoal and
> incinerate the vapour and gases. We receive water and Carbon dioxide
> not taken into account in the Kyoto accords providing both an elite
> comfortable fuel to be used by the high class. The standard of living
> in Russia grows step-by-step. Many people have had an opportunity to
> build country houses with chimneys and a barbeque. They have money and
> want to live in Russia as the upper middle class lives in USA. The
> briquettes from charcoal and charcoal in packets made in USA have
> appeared some years back in racks of St. Petersburg.
>
> These are 2 times more expensive than the Russian clone, but they are
> accepted while other charcoal was not. Many small-sized producers have
> appeared in Russian forests, because of the demand.
>
> They poisoned the forest with their activity. The Chinese now make
> coal in the Far East. The majority of these people cross the boundary
> illegally. They will use an awful know-how and poison/kill more
> forests than they will use. They remove the charcoal as contraband and
> sell it in Japan. One newspaper has written recently that the chief of
> one locale of the Amur area (in Russia) has signed an agreement with
> the chief of the adjacent locale in China. The Chinese will build
> plants and take out charcoal. The journalist thinks that it is good. I
> know Chinese "know-how" and I realize that there will be a cruel
> destruction of a forest. Such situation causes me to think that we do
> business useful both for Russia and for a civilized world.
>
> I love good compliments. But the complimentary words concerning my
> English language is a pity to me. I am absolutely not capable to
> understand living speech and my own English speech is very primitive.
> I very much love English fiction and have read all its masterpieces
> from Shakespeare in translations in Russian. I realize that the
> English language is rich and refined. I regret that I had not time to
> learn it earlier and it is late to do so at 70 years. I recall as the
> people from miscellaneous countries and continents sat in a Pune cafe
> in the evening, they joked, laughed, threw each other plants as balls.
> Two Russian man sat there and smiled to not show they understand
> nothing . It was awful!
>
> I thank you for efforts to activate me on the stoves list. I thank you
> for your kindness and concern on my activities.
>
> I appreciate your friendship and I hope, that we still can see each
> other.
>
> Sincerely yours
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Yury
> To: Ron Larson
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 3:47 AM
> Subject: Your questions
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:51:02 +0000
> From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: charcoal emissions
> To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Message-ID: <1ok3t0dpvrbaqe9i1t91lasch36cgj888p at 4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:56:42 -0800, Dean Still wrote:
>
> >
> >I was surprised that we saw a lot of particulates as well as CO and that
> >heating up the combustion made it worse.
>
> I'll revisit this old one to stimulate a bit of stoves context on the
> list as I sit out another of life's milestones.
>
> It would wouldn't it, unless you apply external heat the only way to
> heat it up is to raise the airflow, this in turn raises the fire bed
> temperature and changes the equilibrium from a CO2 producer to a CO
> producer and the increase massflow in a larger volume means higher
> flue velocities, hence more particulates, in this case fly ash.
>
>
> >Basically we saw higher firepower
> >resulting in higher levels of CO and particulates. Insulating the
combustion
> >chamber, getting hot air to the fire resulted in a faster but not cleaner
> >burn.
>
> Again the higher temperature is driving the reaction toward the
> smaller molecule and increasing the chance of a CO2 molecule being
> reduced to CO
>
> >CO is high anyway and got to more lethal levels when charcoal burned
> >hotter and faster.
>
> Because these simple "bucket" devices have no proper provision for any
> secondary burning.
>
>
> >
> >This year we tested the 20 cooking stoves from around the world for fuel
> >efficiency, emissions under a hood, and emissions in a Test Kitchen.
Thanks
> >to Murdock Foundation, Shell Foundation and the Partnership for Clean
Indoor
> >Air! We noticed that at all stages of the burn shutting the door under
the
> >charcoal, reducing updraft into the fire, cut CO and particulates.
>
> As I would expect, you are changing the device from an updraught CO
> generator to a diffuse surface combustion of Carbon to CO2.
>
> >
> >Tami Bond tells me that there are two kinds of particulates: white and
> >black. White comes from smoke, smoldering biomass. Black particles come
from
> >hot flames.
>
> Tom Reed characterised some of this back in the discussion on burning
> pine resin, with his flame length test, this being a test of the power
> limit of a diffuse flame and dependent on the chemistry of the fuel.
> If the fuel gas has been generated by pyrolysis in the firebed and
> there is by definition a reducing atmosphere, then as it rises into an
> oxygen rich secondary combustion zone it starts to oxidise, if in the
> time available, as it rises through the flame, it meets enough oxygen
> at the boundary between fuel gas and air it will burn out cleanly. If
> the reaction is quenched before completion then the oxygen is going to
> grab a bit of hydrogen for preference and leave a carbon atom to
> wonder on and join other carbon atoms or other pics and leave the hot
> flaming region to cool down and form a clump of soot. As conditions
> outside the flame are cooler it becomes very unlikely it will get hot
> enough to burn out even in the presence of oxygen. To get round this
> you can premix a bit of oxygen with the fuel gas such that the flame
> immediately has the right fuel:air ratio and velocity for a clean
> burn, keep the combustion chamber above the spontaneous combustion
> temperature of the pics or have a catalyst to lower the temperauter at
> which the pics will burn. Tom Reed adopts the premixing of air:fuel
> and a bit of extra turbulance to have clean secondary combustion.
>
> AJH
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:16:31 +1000
> From: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart at iprimus.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Your questions
> To: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
> Cc: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041229221345.01be5770 at pop.iprimus.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> At 06:56 29/12/04, you wrote:
> >This is more of the exchange between Yury and Ronal. The reason Ronal
> >cannot post it directly to the list is that his mail client (outlook
> >distress) is set to reply
>
>
> As Freudian an error if ever there was. And a very apt description as
well.
>
> Peter Verhaart
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:24:57 +0000
> From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Your questions
> To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Message-ID: <b0b5t0pg4lrjnalea4hjj8tj257blnjnvd at 4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:16:31 +1000, Peter Verhaart wrote:
>
> >
> >As Freudian an error if ever there was. And a very apt description as
well.
>
> There was no error, Freudian or otherwise :-)
>
> It was interesting to see an implication that Yury reads this list
> using a software language translation. I downloaded and read his site
> using alta vista's babelfish and could understand most of it. So the
> disparity between these character sets is a problem that has not been
> considered.
>
> I put M$oft's integrated bundling of software with americanised
> default settings alongside Nestles issuing free milk replacement
> powder to new mothers in the third world, as an unscrupulous means to
> create a dependency, despite having an admiration for the way this
> software empire has enabled the spread of IT throughout the world in
> such a short space of time.
>
> AJH
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:27:04 +0000
> From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Your questions
> To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Message-ID: <r1f5t0psgm26qrkp01ale7iomgsqqtth89 at 4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> It seems we're reaching Russia with no problems, Yury you should reset
> the to: address to STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG as we default to reply to
> sender to trap automated replies propagating to the whole list.
> AJH
>
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:05:57 +0300, Yury wrote:
>
> Friends,
>
> I read this text and all archive Stoves without difficulties. It has
> come on
> my address normally. Only some letters from Ron come with a plenty of
> service badges. I addressed to Alkor. I think, they have made that
> that.
>
> Best regards
>
> Yury
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:13:15 -0500
> From: "Fernando Martirena" <f.martirena at enet.cu>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Sawdust usage for income generation?
> To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> Message-ID: <065b01c4edc3$5a841df0$0100007f at FMartirenaH>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear stovers
>
> A couple of years ago I posted an article on our work on the manufacture
of
> what we call "solid fuel block" (bloque s?lido combustible, BSC), which is
> basically a briquette made of pressed biomass bound with some clay. With
> some 20% clay and 80% biomass, at approximately 10% humidity we can
> manufacture a block targeting a 500 kg/m3 density, which dries on the open
> in almost a week and burns yielding a calorific value around 12-17 kJ/g,
> depending on the type of biomass used. The ash resulting from high
> temperature combustion, as that of lime burning or firing bricks, turns up
> to be a highly reactive pozzolan, which we use to manufacture a local
> lime-pozzolan cement. For further details please visit our webseite
> www.ecosur.org
>
> We have had interesting experiences by using sawdust to produce our BSCs.
> The success is not only economic, but also social, since we are able to
> create many local jobs, especially for women and disable people.
>
> We are now entering a new phase in which we are exploring with other
sources
> of biomass, such as woody wastes. We are starting a project to use bamboo
> wastes (during harvesting and processing), which shall be shredded in a
> small portable shredder and then pressed into our BSC. This information is
> also at our website.
>
> Paralell to this we have also developed appropriate machinery, especially
> the press. During this process we have received (and are grateful for)
> interesting recommendations from some of the stove list members. These
> recommendations have been incorporated into our new designs, currnently in
> use. We provide this machine, as well as the know how to interested
parties.
>
> Kind regards
>
> fernando martirena
> _____________________________
> Jos? Fernando Martirena Hern?ndez (Prof. Dr. habil)
> Universidad Central de las Villas
> Facultad de Construcciones. CIDEM
> Carretera a Camajuani km 5
> Santa Clara. Villa Clara. Cuba
> tel: ++53 42 281065 / 281064
> fax: ++53 42 281539
> e-mail: F.Martirena at enet.cu
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
> To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:52 PM
> Subject: [Stoves] Sawdust usage for income generation?
>
>
> > This non member submission seems on topic, just up ELK's street, not
> > to mention Crow Industries. I wonder if Ray knows this agency?
> >
> > AJH
> >
> > From: "National Development Foundation" <Irangani at lanka.ccom.lk>
> > Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 02:17:37 +0600
> >
> > Dear friends,
> > Ours is a Non-governmental, non-profit making organisation devoted to
> > development through self-help development programmes. We also carryout
> > environmental protection programmes with local communities in Sri
> > Lanka.
> >
> > Recently we were informed of a long-standing problem in a suburban
> > city, due to sawdust. There are large numbers of sawmills, carpentry
> > workshops and woodwork centers in the area. They produce tons and tons
> > of saw dust and dump them into the nearby lake polluting the area.
> > Recently the government has no other alternative, but found another
> > dumping site and the sawdust is now dumped in this site spending large
> > sums of money for transportation. For a developing country like ours
> > this type of spending is unaffordable.
> >
> > We have been trying to find a solution to re-cycle and use saw dust.
> > As we understand, it is possible to make Sawdust Bars - fire logs,
> > briquettes etc or even insulating boards if properly experimented. We
> > were also made to understand that there are many organisations,
> > private sector companies engaged in this business.
> >
> > We thought of searching for a simple technology that could be
> > introduced to the low-income generation groups in the area, especially
> > to the women, who could produce some type of an item to the market,
> > could be a fire log, a briquette or an item that could be used in
> > daily life.
> >
> > If we could introduce this type of a technology then it will help the
> > poor to generate income. On the other side it will arrest the
> > pollution problem in the area and save public money that is spent at
> > present for clearing and dumping.
> >
> > Considering the above we are very much obliged if you could help us in
> > finding a technological enterprise who would willing to conduct an
> > investigation on this matter.
> >
> > Since ours is a NGO, we are unable to fund such a programme. If the
> > programme proves to be successful, we may be able to convince a
> > suitable and sympathetic funding agency to support the initial stages
> > of this challenging project.
> >
> > We sincerely hope that you will give your sympathetic consideration to
> > this request.
> > Thanking you and hoping to hear from you favourably,
> > Sincerely yours,
> > Upali
> > Upali Magedaragamage
> > NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT FOUNDATION.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> > Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 5, Issue 30
> *************************************
>

From woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru Thu Dec 30 01:26:56 2004
From: woodcoal at mailbox.alkor.ru (Yury)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 10:26:56 +0300
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 5, Issue 30
References: <20041229170013.05F8029B3A@ns2.misteam.net>
<000d01c4ee08$4d5ee430$1101a8c0@dbarjon>
Message-ID: <002601c4ee40$f4bc8650$6300a8c0@LONAS.RU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "regine barjon" <rbarjon at tampabay.rr.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 3:41 AM
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 5, Issue 30

> what kinds of wood make the best charcoal?
> Would cedar, pine, oak make good charcoal material?
> How does one prevent the high smoke factor?
> Is it during the carbonization process?
> Or do different types of wood make more smoke thna others?
>
> Thank you,
>
> regine

Our technology allows to receive charcoal with any contents of nonvolatile
carbon from any raw material. All allocation burn down in furnace and do not
poison air. One problem remains: strong coal turns out from firm grades of a
tree. Fine waste products and very easy grades of a tree can be raw material
from which make charcoal briquettes.

Yury

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Thu Dec 30 05:40:00 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:40:00 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 5, Issue 30
In-Reply-To: <000d01c4ee08$4d5ee430$1101a8c0@dbarjon>
References: <20041229170013.05F8029B3A@ns2.misteam.net>
<000d01c4ee08$4d5ee430$1101a8c0@dbarjon>
Message-ID: <o7q7t01nmg5dinqr486j7btbrirkg9ckti@4ax.com>

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:41:26 -0500, regine barjon wrote:

>what kinds of wood make the best charcoal?
>Would cedar, pine, oak make good charcoal material?
>How does one prevent the high smoke factor?
>Is it during the carbonization process?
>Or do different types of wood make more smoke thna others?
>
>Thank you,
>
>regine

Hi Regine,

Good questions. As you receive posts as a digest could you cut the
digest from your replies as it takes some people some expensive
telephone time to download in places with poorer telephone infra
structure.

We have a reply to your query from Chris Adam, which you may have seen
by e-mail, Chris has previously posted on his 2 compartment method of
making charcoal. I'm not sure why Chris's post did not propagate, I
suspect it was because it was all in html. Stovers please see the
exchange below.

Chris capital letters are like shouting. Are you currently back in
Germany? It shows how poor my memory is getting I thought your retort
system was in Africa.

*******
Betreff: Best Charcoal? a RETORT SYSTEM (ICPS) will be the solution !
Von: "adam u partner" <scda1 at t-online.de>
Datum: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:47:14 +0100
An: stoves at listserv.repp.org
An: stoves at listserv.repp.org

regine barjon schrieb:

what kinds of wood make the best charcoal?

CHARCOAL CAN BE MADE OUT OF SOFT WOOD (LIGHT) AND OUT OF HARD WOOD
(HEAVY),
BUT AS CHARCOAL IS BOUGHT PER BAG ON THE MARKET, A HEAVY BAG (HARD
WOOD) GIVES THEM
MORE ENERGY VALUE AS THIS BAG CONTAINS MORE CHARCOAL PER VOLUME.
IF CHARCOAL FROM LIGHT WOOD ( PINE etc.) IS MARKETED, THIS BAG SHOULD
BE SOLD AT A LESS PRICE.

Would cedar, pine, oak make good charcoal material?

YES, SEE ABOVE, SOME COUNTRIES HAVE A FAVORITE WOOD TO MAKE CHARCOAL
FROM A SPECIAL TREE:
"IMIKA" in BURUNDI, OR baoki Marao (tamil language) IN TAMIL NADU/
INDIA.
FOR SPECIAL PURPOSES LIKE IRONING, ONLY HEAVY CHARCOAL CAN BE USED.

How does one prevent the high smoke factor?

ONLY A RETORT SYSTEM CAN GIVE YOU A MORE ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY
CHARCOAL PRODUCTION.
DURING THE SECOND PHASE OF CARBONIZATION WE ARE BURNING THE SMOKE AND
WE USE (RECYCLE) THE HEAT USED FOR THE CARBONIZATION PROCESS.
"fourseasonsfuel" CLAIMS A 75% REDUCTION FOR POLLUTION !! WITH A
RETORT SYSTEM

WE ARE STARTING THE CARBONIZATION IN THE MORNING AT 7 AND ALL THE
CHARCOAL IS COMPLETELY BURNED AT 7 IN THE EVENING!
THE SYSTEM I DEVELOPED IS CALLED: ICPS / Improved Charcoal Production
System.
WE BUILT IT IN SOUTH INDIA THIS YEAR FOR ABOUT 200 EUROpER UNIT.
THE WOOD CHAMBER HAS A VOLUME OF ABOUT 2,5m3 WE LOAD IT WITH ABOUT
750Kg WOOD AND WE TAKE
ABOUT 250Kg CHARCOAL FROM IT THE NEXT MORNING.

THIS INNOVATIVE SYSTEM IS A SOLUTION FOR MANY OF THE CHARCOAL
CONSUMING COUNTRIES.

I CAN MAIL YOU A PDF-PHOTO-INFO-SHEET
AND A FILE CONTAINING CALCULATIONS:
scda1 (at) t-online.de
Chris ADAM,

Is it during the carbonization process?
Or do different types of wood make more smoke thna others?

DURING THE FIRST PHASE ITS MAINLY THE WATER IN THE WOOD WHICH KEEPS
THE TEMPERATURE DOWN
AND MAKES WHITE SMOKE.
DRY WOOD : LESS SMOKE, (BUT STILL ENOUGH WITH TRADITIONAL SYSTEM)

Thank you,
regine

--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Chris ADAM
Appropriate Technologist + Industrial Designer

Bahnhofstr.13
82467-GARMISCH-P.
G E R M A N Y

From scda1 at t-online.de Thu Dec 30 05:52:05 2004
From: scda1 at t-online.de (adam u partner)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:52:05 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] Charcoal Production?: Retort Systerm is the answer ! (ICPS)
In-Reply-To: <000d01c4ee08$4d5ee430$1101a8c0@dbarjon>
References: <20041229170013.05F8029B3A@ns2.misteam.net>
<000d01c4ee08$4d5ee430$1101a8c0@dbarjon>
Message-ID: <41D3EBE5.30902@t-online.de>

regine barjon schrieb:

>what kinds of wood make the best charcoal?
>
>
Charcoal can be made out of soft wood (light) and out of hard wood (heavy),
but as charcoal is sold per bag (about 30kg) on the markets, a heavy bag
(hard wood) gives the user
more energy value per bag, as the bag contains more charcoal per volume.
If charcoal from light wood (pine etc.) is marketed, this bag should be
sold at a lesser price.

>Would cedar, pine, oak make good charcoal material?
>
>
Yes, see above, some population of a country have a favorite wood to
make charcoal from. A special tree like "imika"
in Burundi, or "baoki Marao (Tamil language) in Tamil Nadu /South India.
For special purposes like ironing of cloth, only very dense and heavy
charcoal is accepted.

>How does one prevent the high smoke factor?
>
>
Only a Retort System can give you a more environmentally friendly
charcoal production.
During the second phase of carbonization, we are burning the smoke and
we use (recycle)
the heat- for the carbonization process.
E.g. "fourseasonsfuel" claims a 75% reduction of emission of the
volatiles/ pollution with a retort system.

We are starting the carbonization in the morning at 7 and all the
charcoal is completely carbonized
at 7 in the evening!
The system I developed is called ICPS: Improved Charcoal Production System
.
We built the system this year in South India for about 200 Euro per unit.
The wood chamber has a volume of about 2,5m3
We load about 750 kg of wood and we are able to unload
about 250kg of good charcoal the next morning.

We have an efficiency of about 40% including the waste wood burned in a
separate fire box!

That means 100 kg of wood (referred to dry wood) comes to about 40 kg
of charcoal. This is a fantastic result .

This innovative system is a solution for many charcoal consuming South
Countries!

I can mail you a pdf-photo-info sheet and a file containing test
results/calculations:

scda1 @ t-online.de

regards
Chris ADAM,

>Is it during the carbonization process?
>Or do different types of wood make more smoke than others?
>
>
During the first phase its mainly the water in the wood which keeps the
temperature in the kiln down
and this is producing a white smoke.
It important to use dry wood if possible, but still enough smoke (yellow
and dark at the second stage) will
escape with a traditional system!)

>Thank you,
>regine
>
>

Chris ADAM
Appropriate Technologist + Industrial Designer

Bahnhofstr.13
82467-GARMISCH-P.
G E R M A N Y

Hy: 0049-175-528 96 24

From aes at bitstream.net Thu Dec 30 09:38:19 2004
From: aes at bitstream.net (Bruce Stahlberg)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 09:38:19 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [ethos] Clean Burning of Wood
References: <20041229175349.A860C45@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <003201c4ee85$969191c0$0200a8c0@aescmlhs7wpzrm>

This sounds very interesting Dean and looking forward to see this
improvements and others in Seattle. I will bring my old futon that my cat
left his mark...I always thought that burning it would be a good solution
anyway.

See you soon,

Bruce

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
To: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>; "'ethos'" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>; "'Kirk
R. Smith'" <krksmith at berkeley.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 11:53 AM
Subject: [ethos] Clean Burning of Wood

> Dear Friends,
>
> One of the results from our recent study of 21 cooking stoves is a
> pleasant
> surprise. I was not sure a year ago if it was possible to burn wood
> cleanly.
> But recent tests have shown that by blowing air up through the combustion
> chamber both CO and particulates seem to be dramatically reduced. Testing
> shows wood being burnt almost as cleanly as gaseous fuels.
>
> The primary air is not preheated and shoots up through very tiny holes in
> the bottom of the combustion chamber creating very good mixing. Seems to
> me
> that improved mixing is maybe the answer to clean combustion.
>
> We'll bring this stove to ETHOS. I think that it would pass Kirk Smith's
> cat
> pee test (burn cat pee without smell). Let's see there...I'll bring the
> cat
> pee.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe, send email to majormail at vrac.iastate.edu with
> this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
> ---

From tombreed at comcast.net Thu Dec 30 12:07:45 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (TBReed)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:07:45 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Stove contact
Message-ID: <41D443F1.6040500@comcast.net>

Dear Rene Nunez-Suarez:

I saw the article about your stoves in the laatest issue of REPSO VIVION
(the Winrock Foundation). We are also engaged in developing wood stoves
for the world and might like to work with you. See our site at
www.woodgas.com. We need to know who we should talk to.

Do you know about the woodstove discussion groups at
"ethos at vrac.iastate.edu" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu> and
"STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>?

You are not alone in this and would benefit from wider contacts and they
would benefit from your experiences.
Yours truly,

Tom Reed

(AKA Dr. Thomas B. Reed, President, the Biomass Energy Foundation)

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Thu Dec 30 14:06:51 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:06:51 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] black and white smoke
In-Reply-To: <41CE59FB.8060407@uiuc.edu>
References: <20041221162016.6873626@telchar.epud.net>
<00d501c4e77b$e0f2aad0$4701a8c0@guyiiipc>
<41CE59FB.8060407@uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <8ji8t01ndr3g04bppnjh3utk3af69vv7qa@4ax.com>

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 07:28:11 +0100, Tami Bond wrote:

>
>The black particles do come from flames, but can be burnt out if you
>keep the exhaust hot long enough. We saw amazing differences in our lab,
>simply by adding a 10-cm, thick ceramic chimney atop the combustion
>chamber.

Do you think you produced them and then burnt them out or that the
extra residence at high temperature meant they were not produced at
all?

It's the three Ts again, in adding a length of chimney you have added
time of residence for any given massflow and if the chimney is
insulated you have kept temperature up.

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Thu Dec 30 14:06:50 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:06:50 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Fw: Your questions
In-Reply-To: <003001c4ed00$378718c0$816c0443@fats>
References: <003001c4ed00$378718c0$816c0443@fats>
Message-ID: <hvh8t0h59d5gd84hajmg668a861oc0b6l8@4ax.com>

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:11:04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
> his approach is indeed sustainable, after saying a bit more on the market as well. He doesn't say so, but rotting of dead trees in the forest produces considerable CH4 first- which is much worse as a global warming gas.

Ronal, Have you a cite for this? I know anaerobic decomposition will
release methane and CO2, leaving 50% of the original carbon behind but
though aerobic decomposition more likely in most non swampy
situations. Having said that I realise termites are major converters
of wood and give off a lot of methane.
>
> In the second part, Yuri talks of the frustration of being unable to communicate in English - a frustration I have had in quite a few countries as well. But it is better to take this route of starting with machine translation and making a few guesses than of not trying at all. I don't know anything about machine translations - but it must be getting better.

Certainly works well for me.

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Thu Dec 30 14:06:51 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:06:51 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Clean Burning of Wood
In-Reply-To: <20041229175349.A860C45@telchar.epud.net>
References: <20041229175349.A860C45@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <fpi8t0d6gajkq7i50nm1ppbogbqajt0ddt@4ax.com>

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:53:48 -0800, Dean Still wrote:

>The primary air is not preheated and shoots up through very tiny holes in
>the bottom of the combustion chamber creating very good mixing. Seems to me
>that improved mixing is maybe the answer to clean combustion.

This is the third T, Turbulence. Of course "blowing" suggests you have
a power source. Many of us have advocated blowers, Tom Reed's device
seems to be a very good trade off in avoiding a chimney.

What we haven't managed to put numbers on are the cost benefit,
perhaps your comparative tests combined with threshold for the major
pollutants will enable us to make a judgement on this.

AJH

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Thu Dec 30 18:04:03 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:04:03 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Fw: Your questions
References: <003001c4ed00$378718c0$816c0443@fats>
<hvh8t0h59d5gd84hajmg668a861oc0b6l8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c4eecc$3fe13780$509a0a40@kevin>

Dear Andrew

There are several intertwined issues here. Some of the specific questions that I see flowing from your basic inquiry are as follows?

1: Can rotting vegetation produce methane?
2: Can methane be produced in significant quantities under conditions that exist when trees rot in the forest?
3: Is methane worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas?
4: How much worse, as a greenhouse gas, would methane be, in comparison with CO2, for gas volumes that had the same total carbon content?
5: Would there be more methane produced from a given quantity of rotting wood, in comparison to waste wood that was eaten by termites?

Questions 1: and 3: are easy... Yes, and Yes.

Question 2: There is a great deal of data available on operation of biodigesters, showing that methane and CO2 can be produced anaerobically from "vegetative matter", but invariably, there is a significant attempt to control the Carbon/Nitrogen ratio, ideally, about 30/1,for greatest yields. Usually, a key part of the feed mixture is manure,which is high in nitrogen (and relatively low in carbon.) The stem of a tree, being basically cellulose and lignin, is very high in carbon, and very low in nitrogen, with a ratio of about 180/1. Pure sawdust would thus be a poor feed for a biodigester, and pure stemwood would thus be expected to produce relatively little methane in its decomposition process, because of lack of nitrogen. On the other hand, ramial wood ("branch wood" and young trees with a stem of less than about 2") would have sugars, and probably some proteins as a source of nitrogen, such that they may tend to produce greater quantities of methane in a biodigester. However, they may have a higher percentage of phytochemicals that interfere with the digestion process. Finally, anaerobic digestion in a bioreactor with warmth and water is very much different than the conditions that a "rotting tree" would see on the forest floor.... much more aerobic, and much drier. There does not seem to be a simple answer to Question 2.

I have seen answers to Question 4, concerning the relative greenhouse effect of methane and CO2, where the ratio is quoted generally as "CH4 is 20 to 40 times more effective as a greenhouse gas, as is CO2." I only recall having seen this in the popular press, with no specific mention of whether measurements were based on equivalent volumes, equivalent weights, or equivalent carbon contents.

My first guess is that wood eaten by termites would have a methane yield which was greater than simple rotting, because of the presence of bacteria and digestive system products. However, termites are a very successful animal, and likely wouldn't be so if they were inefficient. Perhaps then the termites fully utilize the energy content of the wood they consume, and as such, would produce much less methane than would result from mere rotting. I have only seen references to farts from termites or mooo cows in the popular press, and specific test procedures were not included.

Andrew, there are a lot of loose ends here, and it is good that you draw attention to the issue.

Best wishes,

Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:06 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Fw: Your questions

Certainly works well for me.

From phoenix98604 at earthlink.net Thu Dec 30 18:54:12 2004
From: phoenix98604 at earthlink.net (Art Krenzel)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:54:12 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Fw: Your questions
References: <003001c4ed00$378718c0$816c0443@fats><hvh8t0h59d5gd84hajmg668a861oc0b6l8@4ax.com>
<002a01c4eecc$3fe13780$509a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <01bc01c4eed3$3f6c9f90$25c3f204@7k6rv21>

Kevin,

That was a very good answer but I would like to try to fine tune it just a
bit with some explanations.

Question 1: Rotting is not a sufficiently precise term to describe the
decay of a tree in the forest. A term, biodegradation, more accurately
encompasses all the biological activity going on in a decaying tree. If the
biodegradation is to be accomplished by the anaerobic process and methane is
to form, methanogenic bacteria are involved. Methogens absolutely hate the
presence of oxygen (and readily die if it is present) so they must be
protected by several inches to feet of sealed earth to prevent oxygen from
reaching their active sites. Normally, trees do not fall sufficiently deep
into the earth to make this happen so nature has another biodegradation
path - aerobic digestion. The byproduct of aerobic digestion is CO2 - not
methane. Since most trees do not fall under at least six inches of packed
earth, the above ground portion of the tree normally decomposes via aerobic
biodigestion. The roots probably biodegrade via both routes.

Question 2: What do you mean by "sufficient quantities of methane"? Are you
attempting to heat a house, boil a cup of water for tea, start a forest
fire?? Small quantities of methane will form under anaerobic conditions
however the production of acetates (the methogens preferred food) is limited
by the amount of the precursor acetic acid that can form in contact with the
buffering effect of stable earth. So I would venture a guess that if any
methane would be produced from a dead tree lying on the surface of the
earth, the volume would be quite small and take place over many years such
as is the case in landfills. Landfill methane recovery systems only recover
a very small amount of the energy from the organic matter present in the
landfill due to the effects of air leaks, insufficient water in all the
bioactive spaces and lack of concentrated organic mass.

Question 3 & 4: I agree with you. From the reports that I have studied,
methane is supposed to be about 20X worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas.

Question 5: I cannot speculate in that area.

Art Krenzel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
To: <list at SYLVA.ICUKLIVE.CO.UK>; "The Stoves Discussion List"
<STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Re: Fw: Your questions

Dear Andrew

There are several intertwined issues here. Some of the specific questions
that I see flowing from your basic inquiry are as follows?

1: Can rotting vegetation produce methane?
2: Can methane be produced in significant quantities under conditions that
exist when trees rot in the forest?
3: Is methane worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas?
4: How much worse, as a greenhouse gas, would methane be, in comparison with
CO2, for gas volumes that had the same total carbon content?
5: Would there be more methane produced from a given quantity of rotting
wood, in comparison to waste wood that was eaten by termites?

Questions 1: and 3: are easy... Yes, and Yes.

Question 2: There is a great deal of data available on operation of
biodigesters, showing that methane and CO2 can be produced anaerobically
from "vegetative matter", but invariably, there is a significant attempt to
control the Carbon/Nitrogen ratio, ideally, about 30/1,for greatest yields.
Usually, a key part of the feed mixture is manure,which is high in nitrogen
(and relatively low in carbon.) The stem of a tree, being basically
cellulose and lignin, is very high in carbon, and very low in nitrogen, with
a ratio of about 180/1. Pure sawdust would thus be a poor feed for a
biodigester, and pure stemwood would thus be expected to produce relatively
little methane in its decomposition process, because of lack of nitrogen. On
the other hand, ramial wood ("branch wood" and young trees with a stem of
less than about 2") would have sugars, and probably some proteins as a
source of nitrogen, such that they may tend to produce greater quantities of
methane in a biodigester. However, they may have a higher percentage of
phytochemicals that interfere with the digestion process. Finally, anaerobic
digestion in a bioreactor with warmth and water is very much different than
the conditions that a "rotting tree" would see on the forest floor.... much
more aerobic, and much drier. There does not seem to be a simple answer to
Question 2.

I have seen answers to Question 4, concerning the relative greenhouse effect
of methane and CO2, where the ratio is quoted generally as "CH4 is 20 to 40
times more effective as a greenhouse gas, as is CO2." I only recall having
seen this in the popular press, with no specific mention of whether
measurements were based on equivalent volumes, equivalent weights, or
equivalent carbon contents.

My first guess is that wood eaten by termites would have a methane yield
which was greater than simple rotting, because of the presence of bacteria
and digestive system products. However, termites are a very successful
animal, and likely wouldn't be so if they were inefficient. Perhaps then the
termites fully utilize the energy content of the wood they consume, and as
such, would produce much less methane than would result from mere rotting. I
have only seen references to farts from termites or mooo cows in the popular
press, and specific test procedures were not included.

Andrew, there are a lot of loose ends here, and it is good that you draw
attention to the issue.

Best wishes,

Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:06 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Fw: Your questions

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:11:04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
> his approach is indeed sustainable, after saying a bit more on the
market as well. He doesn't say so, but rotting of dead trees in the forest
produces considerable CH4 first- which is much worse as a global warming
gas.

Ronal, Have you a cite for this? I know anaerobic decomposition will
release methane and CO2, leaving 50% of the original carbon behind but
though aerobic decomposition more likely in most non swampy
situations. Having said that I realise termites are major converters
of wood and give off a lot of methane.
>
> In the second part, Yuri talks of the frustration of being unable to
communicate in English - a frustration I have had in quite a few countries
as well. But it is better to take this route of starting with machine
translation and making a few guesses than of not trying at all. I don't
know anything about machine translations - but it must be getting better.

Certainly works well for me.

AJH
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

From dstill at epud.net Thu Dec 30 21:00:24 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:00:24 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Clean Burning of Wood
In-Reply-To: <fpi8t0d6gajkq7i50nm1ppbogbqajt0ddt@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20041231030026.42B381A0@telchar.epud.net>

Dear AJH,

Larry Winiarski reminds me that the positive effect of the third T,
turbulence, is mixing. As Tom Reed has said, it seems that the very small
fan can improve combustion efficiency and by increasing velocity of hot flue
gases hitting the pot also decrease fuel use.

We are experimenting here at Aprovecho trying to determine how high a
chimney needs be to do the work of a small fan: maybe if well insulated more
than 15 feet> Just a guess. Anyway, hope to see a tall insulated chimney
accomplishing mixing one of these days.

Best,

Dean

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of
list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 12:07 PM
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Clean Burning of Wood

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:53:48 -0800, Dean Still wrote:

This is the third T, Turbulence. Of course "blowing" suggests you have
a power source. Many of us have advocated blowers, Tom Reed's device
seems to be a very good trade off in avoiding a chimney.

What we haven't managed to put numbers on are the cost benefit,
perhaps your comparative tests combined with threshold for the major
pollutants will enable us to make a judgement on this.

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Dec 31 00:12:37 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:12:37 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Stove contact
References: <41D443F1.6040500@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <00d301c4ef00$8a0bbcc0$6501a8c0@Yellow>

Tom,

Can you give us the organization, activity and contact for Rene or the URL
for the REPSO Vision edition.

Thanks

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: "TBReed" <tombreed at comcast.net>
To: <fiaes at fiaes.com.sv>; "Thomas B. Reed" <tombreed at comcast.net>;
<STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>; <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 10:07 AM
Subject: [Stoves] Stove contact

> Dear Rene Nunez-Suarez:
>
> I saw the article about your stoves in the laatest issue of REPSO VIVION
> (the Winrock Foundation). We are also engaged in developing wood stoves
> for the world and might like to work with you. See our site at
> www.woodgas.com. We need to know who we should talk to.
> Do you know about the woodstove discussion groups at
> "ethos at vrac.iastate.edu" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu> and
> "STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>?
>
> You are not alone in this and would benefit from wider contacts and they
> would benefit from your experiences. Yours truly,
>
> Tom Reed
>
> (AKA Dr. Thomas B. Reed, President, the Biomass Energy Foundation)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> %http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Dec 31 06:24:42 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 12:24:42 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Clean Burning of Wood
In-Reply-To: <20041231030026.42B381A0@telchar.epud.net>
References: <fpi8t0d6gajkq7i50nm1ppbogbqajt0ddt@4ax.com>
<20041231030026.42B381A0@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <j7hat0hungihu331b5rj4emvinla1r2i60@4ax.com>

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:00:24 -0800, Dean Still wrote:

> As Tom Reed has said, it seems that the very small
>fan can improve combustion efficiency and by increasing velocity of hot flue
>gases hitting the pot also decrease fuel use.

Yes, increased combustion efficiency will tend to go hand in hand with
higher flue temperature, which increases the delta t across the pot,
increasing heat transfer.

If the energy or capital cost of doing this is more than the perceived
saving of fuel or pollution to the local air then naturally aspirated
wins. What I need to know to make a decision is what the required air
quality standards are and if a naturally aspirated stove can reach
them. I had always been an advocate of fan powered aspiration until I
was told, here, that stoves like the rocket or vesto could reach an
acceptable standard for room venting.

>
>We are experimenting here at Aprovecho trying to determine how high a
>chimney needs be to do the work of a small fan: maybe if well insulated more
>than 15 feet> Just a guess. Anyway, hope to see a tall insulated chimney
>accomplishing mixing one of these days.

No real need to guess, Crispin posted an excel sheet to do the
calculation and Alex English posted tables on this way back.

Chimneys have a big advantage in that they get the flue gases out of
the room if the stove is operated badly. Their disadvantage is they
use a good proportion of your thermal power. In the absence of sunken
pot holes (which unless sealed leak some of your chimney power away)
they require a hot plate between the flue gas and cooking pot,
increasing the resistance of heat transfer surfaces.

This has no impact if your current heat transfer is so bad that you
are rejecting heat after the pot, which is currently wasted, so this
can power the chimney at no extra loss.

Hence there is a balance to be struck between ejecting pollutants and
using more fuel to do it or reducing pollutants by cleaner combustion
in the first place.

Aside from electric cooking, the developed world seems to have adopted
a clean, room vented, burner (using natural gas) and removing steam
and cooking odours with a fan powered hood.

AJH

From tombreed at comcast.net Fri Dec 31 08:43:18 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (TBReed)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:43:18 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Clean Burning of Wood
In-Reply-To: <j7hat0hungihu331b5rj4emvinla1r2i60@4ax.com>
References: <fpi8t0d6gajkq7i50nm1ppbogbqajt0ddt@4ax.com> <20041231030026.42B381A0@telchar.epud.net>
<j7hat0hungihu331b5rj4emvinla1r2i60@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <41D56586.6020507@comcast.net>

Dear Andrew and All:

I've heard it said that "the Good is the enemy of the Best". (ie, when
you achieve something that is "good enough", you arn't likely to put in
the extra work to make it better.)

You should also consider the obverse of this: "The Best is the enemy of
the Good". (ie, you won't take the next step to making things better
when most people are already satisfied).

These are operative in all walks of life, but we have been seeing
examples here lately.

Dean comments that a little forced draft in (Rocket?) stoves really
cleans up the emissions. I have been working for 20 years to take the
next step of first gasifying, then burning the gas to make really clean
cooking from biomass. Other stoves discussed here are already MAJOR
improvements on primative cooking practices, so why bother with the next
step which requires electricity or other power to supply forced
convection? Glad you asked. Forced convection gives ...

*Higher efficiency
Greater intensity and faster cooking
Lower emissions
Other forms of biomass than sticks can be used

*One could then say "Natural convection is the enemy of forced
convection. Forced convection is the enemy of natural convection."

Practical people will have to decide just how good we need to be for
both those still using primative cooking and those hoping to achieve
clean efficient cooking at a higher cost.

Yours truy,

TOM REED

list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:00:24 -0800, Dean Still wrote:
>
>
>
>>As Tom Reed has said, it seems that the very small
>>fan can improve combustion efficiency and by increasing velocity of hot flue
>>gases hitting the pot also decrease fuel use.
>>
>>
>
>Yes, increased combustion efficiency will tend to go hand in hand with
>higher flue temperature, which increases the delta t across the pot,
>increasing heat transfer.
>
>If the energy or capital cost of doing this is more than the perceived
>saving of fuel or pollution to the local air then naturally aspirated
>wins. What I need to know to make a decision is what the required air
>quality standards are and if a naturally aspirated stove can reach
>them. I had always been an advocate of fan powered aspiration until I
>was told, here, that stoves like the rocket or vesto could reach an
>acceptable standard for room venting.
>
>
>
>>We are experimenting here at Aprovecho trying to determine how high a
>>chimney needs be to do the work of a small fan: maybe if well insulated more
>>than 15 feet> Just a guess. Anyway, hope to see a tall insulated chimney
>>accomplishing mixing one of these days.
>>
>>
>
>No real need to guess, Crispin posted an excel sheet to do the
>calculation and Alex English posted tables on this way back.
>
>Chimneys have a big advantage in that they get the flue gases out of
>the room if the stove is operated badly. Their disadvantage is they
>use a good proportion of your thermal power. In the absence of sunken
>pot holes (which unless sealed leak some of your chimney power away)
>they require a hot plate between the flue gas and cooking pot,
>increasing the resistance of heat transfer surfaces.
>
>This has no impact if your current heat transfer is so bad that you
>are rejecting heat after the pot, which is currently wasted, so this
>can power the chimney at no extra loss.
>
>Hence there is a balance to be struck between ejecting pollutants and
>using more fuel to do it or reducing pollutants by cleaner combustion
>in the first place.
>
>Aside from electric cooking, the developed world seems to have adopted
>a clean, room vented, burner (using natural gas) and removing steam
>and cooking odours with a fan powered hood.
>
>AJH
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>%http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
>
>

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Dec 31 10:39:29 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:39:29 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Info search for making pellets
Message-ID: <revat0prc9osg71hu1od8ov1g0metbmt29@4ax.com>

This message came but was not propagated as Lisa is not subscribed, I
have taken the liberty of subscribing Lisa so that she may join in any
responses. I think the website mentioned was Harmon's, see
http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/2002-February/006908.html
AJH

From: Lisa Fougere
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:38:32 -0500

To whom it may concern,

I came across the message below on the internet, and would like to
know if
anybody has in fact found anything on the market for creating your own
pellets from sawdust, paper etc. I'm a machine designer and I'm in the
preliminary stages of designing a pelletizer for personal use. Any
leads
would be greatly appreciated.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
If you look on my website, you'll find two pdf files on
briquetting

From dstill at epud.net Fri Dec 31 11:16:58 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:16:58 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Clean Burning of Wood
In-Reply-To: <41D56586.6020507@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20041231171659.44854EB@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Tom, AJH:

After testing 20 cooking stoves used around the world I would add to your
comments that it is only the stoves using forced draft that significantly
decrease the emission of particulates which hopefully in use would protect
health.

A chimney can develop lots of draft too. If I remember correctly, Tom, you
estimated that a 20' tall chimney would produce draft equal to the fan used
in your stove? We'll experiment both with fans and chimneys trying to follow
your lead in creating clean burning stoves.

>AJH adds, "No real need to guess, Crispin posted an excel sheet to do the
>calculation and Alex English posted tables on this way back."

We have found that building and testing prototypes is a more accurate way to
estimate performance. Why guess when, after an afternoon's work, you can
know? Damon Ogle often cuts discussions short by quietly building an
experiment which settles debate. Half of what I read is wrong and I don't
know which half.

All sorts of stoves answer needs. Great to have lots of excellent solutions.

Best,

Dean

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Dec 31 16:39:29 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 22:39:29 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Clean Burning of Wood
In-Reply-To: <20041231171659.44854EB@telchar.epud.net>
References: <41D56586.6020507@comcast.net>
<20041231171659.44854EB@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <gocbt05q7nt7pjqah5ph3565umgl55ehq1@4ax.com>

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:16:58 -0800, Dean Still wrote:

>After testing 20 cooking stoves used around the world I would add to your
>comments that it is only the stoves using forced draft that significantly
>decrease the emission of particulates which hopefully in use would protect
>health.

I'm looking forward to seeing these figures, have you published them
yet?

>We have found that building and testing prototypes is a more accurate way to
>estimate performance. Why guess when, after an afternoon's work, you can
>know? Damon Ogle often cuts discussions short by quietly building an
>experiment which settles debate.

I agree seeing is believing and I mostly experiment also.

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Dec 31 16:39:29 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 22:39:29 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Fw: Your questions
In-Reply-To: <01bc01c4eed3$3f6c9f90$25c3f204@7k6rv21>
References: <003001c4ed00$378718c0$816c0443@fats><hvh8t0h59d5gd84hajmg668a861oc0b6l8@4ax.com>
<002a01c4eecc$3fe13780$509a0a40@kevin>
<01bc01c4eed3$3f6c9f90$25c3f204@7k6rv21>
Message-ID: <m1fbt0dog4atjemd9trdmcta7fqlql9e60@4ax.com>

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:54:12 -0800, Art Krenzel wrote:

>Kevin,

Thanks Art and Kevin,
It looks like we have some sort of agreement that leaving dead wood in
a forest shouldn't contribute much methane to the atmosphere,
similarly I guess we are all agreed that pyrolysis without clean
flaring will contribute many pics, such that the overall effect on the
atmosphere will be worse than just burning the whole wood in the first
place.

Yury flares all his offgas and uses it to maintain temperature in the
retort system.

>as is the case in landfills. Landfill methane recovery systems only recover
>a very small amount of the energy from the organic matter present in the
>landfill due to the effects of air leaks, insufficient water in all the
>bioactive spaces and lack of concentrated organic mass.

Even with all these things I don't think more than half the original
carbon comes out as the gases CO2 and CH4, though it should,
theoretically, all according to Johannes Moerschner who sent this in
reply to a request of mine in AUG2002

...know the general formula for anaerobic digestion
according to Buswell:

CnHaOb + (n - a/4 - b/2) H2O = (n/2 - a/8 + b/4) CO2 + (n/2 + a/8 -
b/4)
CH4

Butyric acid as example specified:

C4H8O2 + (4 - 8/4 - 2/2) H2O = (4/2 - 8/8 + 2/4) CO2 + (4/2 + 8/8 -
2/4)
CH4
Butyric acid Water Carbon dioxide
Methane

that means: C4H8O2 + H2O = 1,5 CO2 + 2,5 CH4

*****

I wonder what carbon residue remains in the digester AD Karve
promotes?

>Kevin wrote
>My first guess is that wood eaten by termites would have a methane yield
>which was greater than simple rotting, because of the presence of bacteria
>and digestive system products. However, termites are a very successful
>animal, and likely wouldn't be so if they were inefficient.

I'll disagree on your logic there Kevin, there's nothing in nature
that suggests efficient living equates with success in survival sense,
yet. If it were so the most successful species would have evolved as
reptiles ;-).
>
>Andrew, there are a lot of loose ends here, and it is good that you draw
>attention to the issue.

I was playing devil's advocate really, as despite all the problems,
pyrolysis seems a good holistic route to getting a usable fuel from
biomass at the industrial scale, which is not really grist for stoves.

Happy New Year to you all.

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Dec 31 16:39:30 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 22:39:30 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Clean Burning of Wood
In-Reply-To: <41D56586.6020507@comcast.net>
References: <fpi8t0d6gajkq7i50nm1ppbogbqajt0ddt@4ax.com> <20041231030026.42B381A0@telchar.epud.net>
<j7hat0hungihu331b5rj4emvinla1r2i60@4ax.com>
<41D56586.6020507@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <fribt0tbdhclct10re15fjjsvuen3gk6ki@4ax.com>

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:43:18 -0700, TBReed wrote:

>Dear Andrew and All:
>
>I've heard it said that "the Good is the enemy of the Best". (ie, when
>you achieve something that is "good enough", you arn't likely to put in
>the extra work to make it better.)

I resemble that remark, it's the trouble with painting things with a
broad brush, masterpieces will never be my forte.

>Dean comments that a little forced draft in (Rocket?) stoves really
>cleans up the emissions. I have been working for 20 years to take the
>next step of first gasifying, then burning the gas to make really clean
>cooking from biomass. Other stoves discussed here are already MAJOR
>improvements on primative cooking practices, so why bother with the next
>step which requires electricity or other power to supply forced
>convection? Glad you asked. Forced convection gives ...
>
>*Higher efficiency
>Greater intensity and faster cooking
>Lower emissions

Agreed, what we need to see if the cost is worthwhile, how much value
will the cook put on their local air quality?

>Other forms of biomass than sticks can be used

This is a good one, I've been meaning to ask Richard Stanley about the
ash residue from his whole biomass briquettes. I have experimented
quite a bit in this area, seeing what can be done with agri residues.
This holiday I have "modified" my domestic, pellet fired, hot air
furnace/stove to run on barley screenings. I have had a few surprising
setbacks, principally the tendency for the grains to fuse together in
the pyrolysis phase and then either the carbonised remains not
supporting combustion or, by increasing primary air supply, turning
the primary combustion zone into an updraught gasifier and finding the
ash slags into a rather pretty and delicate vitrified mesh, which
clogs the burner after 2 or 3 hours.

What other, non woody, fuels have you tried in the turbo Tom?

AJH

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

December 2004 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive