March 2004 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From ronallarson at QWEST.NET Mon Mar 1 14:58:35 2004
From: ronallarson at QWEST.NET (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:54 2004
Subject: Fw: Stuart Conway on meeting in Ghana
Message-ID: <MON.1.MAR.2004.125835.0700.RONALLARSON@QWEST.NET>

Stovers - Stuart Conway has asked that I forward this message - hoping
especially that list members in Ghana or nearby countries will find this of
interest:

Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 12:13 PM
Subject: [ethos] Re: Rocket Stove in Ghana> Hi Dean, et al,
>
> Two TWP members, David and Jill Ellis, are going to Ghana for a meeting
> on reforestation, forest conservation and development. I'm sending them
> information on the Rocket stove. They would like Aprovecho to send a
> Rocket stove to Ghana for the conference so that they can demonstrate
> one at the conference. Their contact is Princess Naa Asie Ocansey who is
> organizing the conference and has contacts with UN officials in her
> country. Can you send a Rocket stove to Ghana? I'll pay the freight
> cost.
>
> Dave and Jill are leaving on Saturday, but the conference runs from the
> 7-11th of March.
>
> Also, I was wondering if Aprovecho or anyone on the ETHOS list had
> contacts in Ghana who are already making Rocket stoves and would be
> willing to demonstrate the Rocket at the conference?
>
> Here is the mailing address, Dean:
>
> Princess Naa Asie Ocansey
> P. O. Box 77
> Tema, Ghana
>
> Yes, this is for real!
> <snip>

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Mon Mar 1 16:18:50 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:54 2004
Subject: Actual global warming records
Message-ID: <MON.1.MAR.2004.231850.0200.>

Dear Stovers

Had enough of climate change opinion? No? Here is a useful reference!
- Crispin

Originally from Frank Doonan shunyadragon@yahoo.com
Written 22 November 2003

The shorter cycles are also well known. A good basic reference for this
is New Views of an Old Planet: A History of Global Change by Tjeerd H.
Van Andel. The little Ice Age fits in a 2,500 year cycle between peaks
of warm periods. This cycle is very consistent since the end of the last
Ice Age. We are in a natural warming trend that should peak in about
1,000 years. Our recent records are very good showing cycles on a
smaller scale. These short cycles of temperature fluctuation are
punctuated by cold spells caused by major volcanic eruptions. These
records can be extrapolated back for a considerable amount of time using
lake sediments. Lake sediments are great climate records.

The debate is how much human influences are effecting the current
warming trend. Research at the Institute of Oceanography in California
provides some predictive models that show an average in crease in global
temperatures by 1.5 to more than 4 degrees centigrade 2050.

Dan <danc19fr@yahoo.com> wrote:
<< It is true predictions in non-linear chaotic relationships are
tricky, but the general trend is well known. We are in a natural
global warming trend and human influences are likely contributing to
an increased global warming trend. >>

Agreed, Frank. Some cycles can be deduced from the record, such as
the last 4 ice ages. The shorter-term cycles, if they exist, are
much harder to predict, both because of the limited number of data
points and because the time of those data points is not precisely
known.

For the last few centuries we have been in a warming trend. If it
continues for the next century it will make anthropogenic global
warming even more serious.

- Dan

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Mon Mar 1 16:20:59 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:54 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
Message-ID: <MON.1.MAR.2004.232059.0200.>

Dear Stovers

Dr Karve (Snr) has raised a very important point that is frequently
taken for granted or ignored. Disemination by artisanal production has
certain advantages, but really low-level success is conditioned on what
basically amount to underdevelopment - a sort of "benefit for
backwardness". The problem is there are real costs in this approach as
well.

I come from a family of designers and it has been my observation many
years ago that one of the problems facing developing communities is that
the benefits in the advancement in science (at all levels) are not
brought to bear on the problems of the poor.

Manufacturing science is ruthlessly applied to solving the problems
involving production of consumer goods and things of high market value.
Designers are of course attracted to such industries. Machinists and
equipment producers concentrate on production methods involving ever
less labour and ever more capital.

On the other hand, artisanal production is stuck in a time warp or even
going backwards. The hammer, the tongs and the trowel have not changed
in centuries. It might surprise an ordinary observer to visit a
production workshop in a museum of woodworking to see how the craftiness
and imagination of former years was applied to increasing the
productivity of labour-based methods. It took a lifetime to learn all
the tricks of the trade of mass production with hand labour. It appears
to me that efforts to improve such methods further taking advantage of
modern materials stopped years ago, not because it is not profitable to
do so, but because it has been forgotten, bypassed. This is a great
loss and simultaneously a great opportunity.

There are many advantages to mass production which are called 'economies
of scale' and also there are many 'dis-economies of scale' that are not
factored into the true cost of products. We can all cite examples.

It has been my mission to consciously bring modern materials, design
approaches and production skills to simple devices. There are major
opportunities and large markets awaiting the better hand crafted
product.

One approach to the problem (or issue) is the 'intermediate technology'
approach in which old medium scale equipment and 50 to 100 year old
methods are offered as an intermediary step between the old and the
modern production systems. I am against this approach. There is no
reason not to advocate the use of every theoretical and practical tool
and material to the solution of simple technological problems
(computers, CAD, physics, modelling, cobalt, carbon fibres, ceramics
etc).

It is my experience that instead of having to choose between the modern
mass production methods or traditional artisanal methods, there is real
potential in manufacturing on a medium scale in a modern factory using
wise and educated people who have manual tools for some jobs and
mechanized ones for others. The mechanization does not need to be low
quality tooling made from dreadful materials. Good quality tools make
good, consistent products. It may be unfair for "a poor workman to
blame his tools", but it is quite permissible for a good workman to
blame poor tools.

Having accepted the general argument in principle, we can look at the
things people use in their homes.

Is a stove not a tool? Is a pot not a tool? Why are they expensive or
fragile? Is it the distribution system? Missing subsidies? Greed?
Incompetence? Or, why are some stove prices so low that if the
disemmination programme succeeded, it would bankrupt the implementers?
What is the true cost of making a stove available, and what is a
realistic price? And what do you get for the money? I have every
confidence that the members of this list are applying themselves to
these questions, but the majority of the globe's designers, marketers
and manufacturers are not. And of course the things needed go far
beyond stoves. I am suspicious that we are not aiming high enough on
the manufacturing ladder. Cell phones with several million parts are
bought by rural poor people at market related prices. Is it such a
problem to do the same with stoves? Where is the Toyota of stoves?

My bottom line is that it seems unfair for a rural poor person to have
to pay a higher price for an artisanal stove than a mass produced one
because of a 'development' ideology. That is just making the poor
poorer.

It is equally unfair for a distribution system to burden the price of a
mass produced stove because of a consumer ideology. That is just making
the rich richer. I read in Dr Karve's comments my own philosophy: that
there are optimized scales and modern methods of labour-based production
that capitalize on the unique attributes of regions and communities. In
all cases, they are almost never the totally manual nor the totally
global supply solutions. These alternatives we should seek.

Regards
Crispin

+++++++++++++++

Dear stovers,
this is an important aspect, which also applies to stoves and biomass
based improved fuels. Introduction of machines allows mass production
at a much cheaper rate. This destroyed a number of village based
enterprises based on cloth, clothing, leather, bread making, sugar
making, metal working, etc. Availability of cheap new plastics destroyed
another set of rural industries. But in comparison to the last ccentury,
the cost of transport as well as the wages in the organised sector have
increased. For a product made in a central manufacturing unit to reach
the consumer, it must be transported over long distances, stored in a
network of warehouses and sold through a network of distributers and
sales outlets. All this costs money. Thus in the present situation,
although the manufacturing cost is low, the cost of selling is high. A
small manufacturer, who operates a business as a family business, uses
local raw materials, and deals directly with the end-user, is nowadays
well in a position to compete successfully with the organised industry.
He also has an added advantage that he is generally not bothered by laws
like the minimum wage act, the act dectating the minimum age of the
employees, the social service tax, insurance of employees, sales tax,
and many other taxes which the organised industry has to pay. In
addition, he also does not have unproductive employees like
accountants, security guards, telephone operators, tax consultants,
legal advisers, etc. Therefore, even if his cost of production is high,
his products are often available at a lower cost to the consumer than
the mass produced items. This principle applies to our improved
cookstoves manufactured by potters, using local clay and sold directly
to the users. We are now also trying to introduce, in the same manner,
charcoal made from agro-waste as a rural household fuel. The same
principle may also apply to locally extracted edible oil, locally made
honey, locally made sugar, locally made jams, jellies, pickles etc. But
unfortunately, the micro-entrepreneurs manufacturing many of these items
are greedy and price their products on par with the branded products,
and then lament the fact that the buyers prefered the better known
brands to the locally made items. Dr.A.D.Karve, President, Appropriate
Rural Technology Institute, Pune, India.

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Mar 1 09:52:10 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:54 2004
Subject: Root antibiotics and methanogens
Message-ID: <MON.1.MAR.2004.202210.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

In the case of my biogas plant, the digester holds from about about 200 to
500 litres of water, and we add daily only about 200 to 500 grams of starch
to it. At that degree of dilution, the antibiotics most prabably do not
harm the methanogenic bacteria.
Yours A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Fw: [STOVES] Forwarding more - mostly on rootfuels
(#4)

> Dear Ron
>
> Roots would have to be minced or ground, to enable quick and complete
> utilization of starch.
>
> However, if there were indeed the "wrong kind of antibiotics" present in
the
> roots, they could kill the bio-reactor biotics.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@QWEST.NET>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 9:06 PM
> Subject: [STOVES] Fw: [STOVES] Forwarding more - mostly on rootfuels (#4)
>
>
> > Stovers - again a reply from Gene. Ron
> > (ps - I liked the idea of the starches going directly into digesters and
> > hope we can hear more at some tme from A.D. or others). I wonder if
they
> > would have to be minced/mashed or can be put in whole.)
> >
> >

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Mar 1 21:11:13 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:54 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
Message-ID: <TUE.2.MAR.2004.074113.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Crispin,
I have nothing against factory made goods. There are certain goods, that
have to be made in a factory, because the artisan lacks the capital to
invest in things like a steel rolling mill. But the situation has changed in
the case of many other type of goods, because, at least in India, the cost
of transport, cost of energy, the salaries of the factory employees
(especially of the unproductive workers like the advertisement executives,
economic analysts, taxation experts, the Managing Directors, the accountants
etc. who sit in their air-conditioned offices) have increased to such an
extent, that many of the artisanal products are again in a position to
compete with the factory made items. For instance, artisanal manufacturers
of leather goods were pauperised in the last century because they could not
compete with the factories. But now, because of the changed circumstances,
they are experiencing a boom. With the help of the Central Leather Research
Institute in Chennai, they were able to adopt modern methods like
computerised footware designing, modern manufacturing tools and modern
materials like polymers for the soles. One can buy a well crafted and modish
looking pair of shoes from a village artisan at about half the price of a
factory made and brand named pair. Similarly, hand made cloth is making a
comeback in a big way in Rajasthan. Food, cleansing agents, wooden
furniture, are some other objects, which can be made much more cheaply in a
village than in the organised industrial sector.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] sustainability of microenterprises

> Dear Stovers
>
> Dr Karve (Snr) has raised a very important point that is frequently
> taken for granted or ignored. Disemination by artisanal production has
> certain advantages, but really low-level success is conditioned on what
> basically amount to underdevelopment - a sort of "benefit for
> backwardness". The problem is there are real costs in this approach as
> well.
>
> I come from a family of designers and it has been my observation many
> years ago that one of the problems facing developing communities is that
> the benefits in the advancement in science (at all levels) are not
> brought to bear on the problems of the poor.
>
> Manufacturing science is ruthlessly applied to solving the problems
> involving production of consumer goods and things of high market value.
> Designers are of course attracted to such industries. Machinists and
> equipment producers concentrate on production methods involving ever
> less labour and ever more capital.
>
> On the other hand, artisanal production is stuck in a time warp or even
> going backwards. The hammer, the tongs and the trowel have not changed
> in centuries. It might surprise an ordinary observer to visit a
> production workshop in a museum of woodworking to see how the craftiness
> and imagination of former years was applied to increasing the
> productivity of labour-based methods. It took a lifetime to learn all
> the tricks of the trade of mass production with hand labour. It appears
> to me that efforts to improve such methods further taking advantage of
> modern materials stopped years ago, not because it is not profitable to
> do so, but because it has been forgotten, bypassed. This is a great
> loss and simultaneously a great opportunity.
>
> There are many advantages to mass production which are called 'economies
> of scale' and also there are many 'dis-economies of scale' that are not
> factored into the true cost of products. We can all cite examples.
>
> It has been my mission to consciously bring modern materials, design
> approaches and production skills to simple devices. There are major
> opportunities and large markets awaiting the better hand crafted
> product.
>
> One approach to the problem (or issue) is the 'intermediate technology'
> approach in which old medium scale equipment and 50 to 100 year old
> methods are offered as an intermediary step between the old and the
> modern production systems. I am against this approach. There is no
> reason not to advocate the use of every theoretical and practical tool
> and material to the solution of simple technological problems
> (computers, CAD, physics, modelling, cobalt, carbon fibres, ceramics
> etc).
>
> It is my experience that instead of having to choose between the modern
> mass production methods or traditional artisanal methods, there is real
> potential in manufacturing on a medium scale in a modern factory using
> wise and educated people who have manual tools for some jobs and
> mechanized ones for others. The mechanization does not need to be low
> quality tooling made from dreadful materials. Good quality tools make
> good, consistent products. It may be unfair for "a poor workman to
> blame his tools", but it is quite permissible for a good workman to
> blame poor tools.
>
> Having accepted the general argument in principle, we can look at the
> things people use in their homes.
>
> Is a stove not a tool? Is a pot not a tool? Why are they expensive or
> fragile? Is it the distribution system? Missing subsidies? Greed?
> Incompetence? Or, why are some stove prices so low that if the
> disemmination programme succeeded, it would bankrupt the implementers?
> What is the true cost of making a stove available, and what is a
> realistic price? And what do you get for the money? I have every
> confidence that the members of this list are applying themselves to
> these questions, but the majority of the globe's designers, marketers
> and manufacturers are not. And of course the things needed go far
> beyond stoves. I am suspicious that we are not aiming high enough on
> the manufacturing ladder. Cell phones with several million parts are
> bought by rural poor people at market related prices. Is it such a
> problem to do the same with stoves? Where is the Toyota of stoves?
>
> My bottom line is that it seems unfair for a rural poor person to have
> to pay a higher price for an artisanal stove than a mass produced one
> because of a 'development' ideology. That is just making the poor
> poorer.
>
> It is equally unfair for a distribution system to burden the price of a
> mass produced stove because of a consumer ideology. That is just making
> the rich richer. I read in Dr Karve's comments my own philosophy: that
> there are optimized scales and modern methods of labour-based production
> that capitalize on the unique attributes of regions and communities. In
> all cases, they are almost never the totally manual nor the totally
> global supply solutions. These alternatives we should seek.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
> +++++++++++++++
>
>
> Dear stovers,
> this is an important aspect, which also applies to stoves and biomass
> based improved fuels. Introduction of machines allows mass production
> at a much cheaper rate. This destroyed a number of village based
> enterprises based on cloth, clothing, leather, bread making, sugar
> making, metal working, etc. Availability of cheap new plastics destroyed
> another set of rural industries. But in comparison to the last ccentury,
> the cost of transport as well as the wages in the organised sector have
> increased. For a product made in a central manufacturing unit to reach
> the consumer, it must be transported over long distances, stored in a
> network of warehouses and sold through a network of distributers and
> sales outlets. All this costs money. Thus in the present situation,
> although the manufacturing cost is low, the cost of selling is high. A
> small manufacturer, who operates a business as a family business, uses
> local raw materials, and deals directly with the end-user, is nowadays
> well in a position to compete successfully with the organised industry.
> He also has an added advantage that he is generally not bothered by laws
> like the minimum wage act, the act dectating the minimum age of the
> employees, the social service tax, insurance of employees, sales tax,
> and many other taxes which the organised industry has to pay. In
> addition, he also does not have unproductive employees like
> accountants, security guards, telephone operators, tax consultants,
> legal advisers, etc. Therefore, even if his cost of production is high,
> his products are often available at a lower cost to the consumer than
> the mass produced items. This principle applies to our improved
> cookstoves manufactured by potters, using local clay and sold directly
> to the users. We are now also trying to introduce, in the same manner,
> charcoal made from agro-waste as a rural household fuel. The same
> principle may also apply to locally extracted edible oil, locally made
> honey, locally made sugar, locally made jams, jellies, pickles etc. But
> unfortunately, the micro-entrepreneurs manufacturing many of these items
> are greedy and price their products on par with the branded products,
> and then lament the fact that the buyers prefered the better known
> brands to the locally made items. Dr.A.D.Karve, President, Appropriate
> Rural Technology Institute, Pune, India.

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Tue Mar 2 07:59:17 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:54 2004
Subject: Root antibiotics and methanogens
Message-ID: <TUE.2.MAR.2004.085917.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear AD

I would respectfully suggest that there is a concern. If such a root crop
can kill a person who would weigh about as much as your daily water charge,
and eat as much of it as is added to the daily water charge, then there
could very well be a valid concern.

Additionally, even if the antibiotic content is low enough so that it is not
lethal, it may detract from optimal operation.

Kindest wishes,

Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----
From: "adkarve" <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:52 AM
Subject: [STOVES] Root antibiotics and methanogens

> In the case of my biogas plant, the digester holds from about about 200
to
> 500 litres of water, and we add daily only about 200 to 500 grams of
starch
> to it. At that degree of dilution, the antibiotics most prabably do not
> harm the methanogenic bacteria.
> Yours A.D.Karve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 7:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [STOVES] Fw: [STOVES] Forwarding more - mostly on rootfuels
> (#4)
>
>
> > Dear Ron
> >
> > Roots would have to be minced or ground, to enable quick and complete
> > utilization of starch.
> >
> > However, if there were indeed the "wrong kind of antibiotics" present in
> the
> > roots, they could kill the bio-reactor biotics.
> >
> > Kindest regards,
> >
> > Kevin
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson@QWEST.NET>
> > To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 9:06 PM
> > Subject: [STOVES] Fw: [STOVES] Forwarding more - mostly on rootfuels
(#4)
> >
> >
> > > Stovers - again a reply from Gene. Ron
> > > (ps - I liked the idea of the starches going directly into digesters
and
> > > hope we can hear more at some tme from A.D. or others). I wonder if
> they
> > > would have to be minced/mashed or can be put in whole.)
> > >
> > >

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Tue Mar 2 09:21:36 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Global warming translates to big drip in Chile
Message-ID: <TUE.2.MAR.2004.102136.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

Scientists calculate that glacier melting in Chile has raised sea level by
9% per year.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=655&e=1&u=/oneworld/20040301
/wl_oneworld/4536804981078175675
Glaciers Melting Off Chile's Southern Tip

Mon Mar 1, 4:57 PM ET

Add World - OneWorld.net to My Yahoo!

Gustavo Gonzalez, Inter Press Service

SANTIAGO, Mar 1 (IPS) - The melting of glaciers in the Patagonian region at
the southern tip of Latin America requires urgent international action,
without waiting for the United States to sign the Kyoto Protocol (news - web
sites) on climate change, Chilean environmentalists and government experts
are saying.

? Greenpeace
? Union of Concerned Scientists
? OneWorld on Climate Change

Supported by
Cable & Wireless

The glacial retreat in Patagonia, a region shared by Argentina and Chile,
was highlighted by a recent month-long expedition by a team of 25 scientists
and activists on the Greenpeace vessel Arctic Sunrise.

The expedition, which ended in mid-February, set out from Amsterdam and
toured Patagonia, observing the Perito Moreno and Upsala glaciers in
Argentina, as well as six other glaciers on the Chilean side after passing
through the Strait of Magellan.

Chilean experts joined the Arctic Sunrise for that part of the journey,
whose mission was to document the state of the glaciers and the damages
caused by climate change, a phenomenon blamed on the greenhouse effect
caused by emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) and other gases resulting from
the burning of fossil fuels.

The team observed the Grey, San Quintin, San Rafael and Pius XI glaciers, as
well as glaciers number 31 and 12 in the Southern Patagonian Ice Field.
Greenpeace noted that all of them, with the exception of Pius XI, are in
retreat.

Prominent local environmentalist Sara Larran, president of the
non-governmental organization Sustainable Chile, told IPS that the first to
feel the effects of global warming are small island states and countries
with extensive shorelines, due to the rise in the sea level caused by the
melting of glaciers and of the ice caps at the poles.

But global warming also affects the migration of species, she added.

''It has been estimated that for every one degree rise in the average global
temperature, ecosystems, or more specifically flora, shift 100 kms away from
the equator, in the direction of the North or South Poles,'' she explained.

''This is an issue that directly affects biodiversity and the biological
wealth of nations,'' because in these shifts or migrations of ecosystems,
species that are unable to swiftly adapt to the changes will be lost, said
Larran.

She also said there would be an enormous impact on agriculture and on the
farming methods that are used.

Scientific studies estimate that the greenhouse effect drove up the average
global temperature by 0.6 degrees Celsius in the 20th century, and
researchers project that the temperature will rise between 1.4 and 5.8
degrees over the next 100 years, if the current levels of emissions of CO2
and other greenhouse gases are not reduced.

Larran also pointed out that for every one degree increase in the global
temperature, the sea level rises around 50 cms.

Using data from the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA
(news - web sites)) Shuttle Topographic Radar expedition, Chilean scientists
Gino Casassa and Andrs Rivera calculate that the retreat of the glaciers in
Patagonia accounts for nine percent of the increase in the sea level, or
0.11 mms a year.

Gonzalo Villarino, executive director of Greenpeace-Chile, said in an
interview with IPS that this Southern Cone country of 16 million produces
0.02 percent of all greenhouse gases, compared to the United States, which
accounts for 25 to 30 percent of the global total.

Villarino and Larran concurred that it is essential for the United States
and Russia to ratify the Kyoto Protocol. The head of the Climatology
Department in Chile's Meteorological Agency, Jorge Carrasco, also told IPS
that developing countries must lobby hard to get the international treaty
approved and ratified.

''All countries must make progress towards that goal, acknowledge the
problem, and begin to work in support of renewable energy sources, an aspect
in which Chile is lagging,'' said Villarino.

Larran observed that at the 2002 Summit for the Environment and Sustainable
Development in Johannesburg, South Africa, the countries of Latin America
pledged to move towards the goal of making renewable sources, like solar,
wind and geothermal energy, account for 10 percent of their total energy
production.

''Many countries made similar commitments, and there are also other routes
to be taken. Governments must come up with the solutions and political
instruments, instead of waiting for the United States,'' said the activist.

''The United States has not only failed to ratify the Kyoto Protocol,'' she
underlined. ''It has not ratified the Biosafety Convention, or disarmament
treaties, either. Although it talks about taking part in the multilateral
system, in the end it doesn't sign the international conventions,'' said
Larran.

Developing countries must join efforts to influence international
negotiations, she added, saying Latin America should strengthen its
cooperation ties, on the financial and technological levels, with the
European Union (news - web sites), which is determined to move towards the
implementation of the Kyoto Protocol even without the United States.

''Chile has a huge capacity for using solar, wind, and geothermal resources,
but it is not developing them, with the exception of small isolated projects
in rural areas, because there is not enough investment, and renewable energy
sources generally require a large initial investment,'' said Larran.

Carrasco said Argentina and Chile should promote truly sustainable
development, based on ''clean energy'', and should use the mechanisms
created by the Kyoto Protocol to help countries incorporate clean
technologies.
--
"Just remember we have enlisted for the duration in service to the truth."
Chuck Colson's friend

David Whitfield

solar1@zuper.net
aguaviva@zuper.net
dewv@yahoo.com

http://www.solarcooking.org/media/broadcast/whitfield/bio-whitfield/
http://www.thehungersite.com

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Tue Mar 2 10:39:03 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Global warming translates to big drip in Chile
Message-ID: <TUE.2.MAR.2004.113903.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Solar1

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar"
<solar1@ZUPER.NET>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 10:21 AM
Subject: [STOVES] Global warming translates to big drip in Chile

Scientists calculate that glacier melting in Chile has raised sea level by
9% per year.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=655&e=1&u=/oneworld/20040301
/wl_oneworld/4536804981078175675
Glaciers Melting Off Chile's Southern Tip

Actually, the "9%" is the contribution of the Chile Glaciers to the actual
rise. See the following:
"Using data from the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration
(NASA (news - web sites)) Shuttle Topographic Radar expedition, Chilean
scientists Gino Casassa and Andrs Rivera calculate that the retreat of the
glaciers in Patagonia accounts for nine percent of the increase in the sea
level, or 0.11 mms a year. "

Best wishes,

Kevin Chisholm

Mon Mar 1, 4:57 PM ET

Add World - OneWorld.net to My Yahoo!

Gustavo Gonzalez, Inter Press Service

? Greenpeace
? Union of Concerned Scientists
? OneWorld on Climate Change

Supported by
Cable & Wireless

But global warming also affects the migration of species, she added.

She also said there would be an enormous impact on agriculture and on the
farming methods that are used.

Larran also pointed out that for every one degree increase in the global
temperature, the sea level rises around 50 cms.

''All countries must make progress towards that goal, acknowledge the
problem, and begin to work in support of renewable energy sources, an aspect
in which Chile is lagging,'' said Villarino.

David Whitfield

solar1@zuper.net
aguaviva@zuper.net
dewv@yahoo.com

http://www.solarcooking.org/media/broadcast/whitfield/bio-whitfield/
http://www.thehungersite.com

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Tue Mar 2 16:48:29 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <043e01c3ff29$6cda6560$126c0443@net>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.MAR.2004.154829.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Gene,

Could you mention some crops that give product above ground, and we can
still utilize the rootfuels.

Can we assume that virtually all of the useful rootfuels will be better in
sandy soils both because of the ease for the roots to grow large and for
the ease of harvest? Any exceptions to this?

Paul

At 06:06 PM 2/29/04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
>Stovers - again a reply from Gene. Ron

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Tue Mar 2 16:55:11 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
In-Reply-To: <000901c3ff85$5468e680$0a03960a@intelnet.net.gt>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.MAR.2004.155511.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Derick,

You wrote:

At 06:04 AM 3/1/04 -0600, entre wrote:
>Regarding your investigations on candlelight . for many years a small
>clay or iron light(one candle) and food heater have been combined however
>today they seem to be losing ground.

Please give more information, and do you have one? any possible
pictures. There could be some improvements??

Thanks for your excellent observations in the previous message.

Paul

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Mar 2 19:15:59 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Root antibiotics and methanogens
Message-ID: <WED.3.MAR.2004.054559.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Kevin,
the poisons that kill humans and those that kill bacteria are often
different. For instance ricin, curare, arbutin, nicotin, berberin, cocain,
morphin, aconitin, and many other plant poisons that are poisonous to humans
can be easily degraded by bacteria. But let me tell you that we have a
student of my daughters testing potential sources of starch for their
efficacy to produce methane. We shall publish the tables, so that our
prospective clients know what to use as a source of methane and what not.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Root antibiotics and methanogens

> Dear AD
>
> I would respectfully suggest that there is a concern. If such a root crop
> can kill a person who would weigh about as much as your daily water
charge,
> and eat as much of it as is added to the daily water charge, then there
> could very well be a valid concern.
>
> Additionally, even if the antibiotic content is low enough so that it is
not
> lethal, it may detract from optimal operation.
>
> Kindest wishes,
>
> Kevin Chisholm

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Mar 2 19:37:40 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <WED.3.MAR.2004.060740.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Paul,
the category of crops you mention are banana (fruits and underground
rhizome), taro (leaves serve as vegetable), tapioca (aerial stems can be
used as woody fuel), Psophocarpus tetragonolobus (leaves and green pods as
vegetables). However, except for banana, the rhizomes and tubers of all
others are also eaten by humans. There may be more such crops, but I can
think of only the above three. There is a large number of tree species that
have an underground tuber, called lignotuber, because it is quite woody. I
am planning to conduct a study of the lignotubers to see what other
nutrients they contain. Jatropha has such tubers, and so have many species
of Eucalyptus.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 3:18 AM
Subject: [STOVES] Rootfuels

> Gene,
>
> Could you mention some crops that give product above ground, and we can
> still utilize the rootfuels.
>
> Can we assume that virtually all of the useful rootfuels will be better in
> sandy soils both because of the ease for the roots to grow large and for
> the ease of harvest? Any exceptions to this?
>
> Paul
>
> At 06:06 PM 2/29/04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
> >Stovers - again a reply from Gene. Ron
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From snkm at BTL.NET Wed Mar 3 09:18:40 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <WED.3.MAR.2004.081840.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 06:07 AM 3/3/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:

>tapioca (aerial stems can be used as woody fuel)

Are you referring to Cassava??

Cassava probably beats all records as a starch producer. Grows just about
anywhere -- under any conditions -- in the tropics/sub-tropics.

Since AD first brought up the subject of his starch fed methane biogass
maker -- Cassava has been on my mind.

AD -- have you worked with Cassava yet?

Also -- for those of you to the North -- is not Bulrush -- cattail -- also
of very starch filled root??

Between these two you have a large part of the energy shortage solution??

With a little help from AD's processor.

Peter Singfield / Belize

>Dear Paul,
>the category of crops you mention are banana (fruits and underground
>rhizome), taro (leaves serve as vegetable), tapioca (aerial stems can be
>used as woody fuel), Psophocarpus tetragonolobus (leaves and green pods as
>vegetables). However, except for banana, the rhizomes and tubers of all
>others are also eaten by humans. There may be more such crops, but I can
>think of only the above three. There is a large number of tree species that
>have an underground tuber, called lignotuber, because it is quite woody. I
>am planning to conduct a study of the lignotubers to see what other
>nutrients they contain. Jatropha has such tubers, and so have many species
>of Eucalyptus.
>Yours
>A.D.Karve

From ronallarson at QWEST.NET Wed Mar 3 09:38:37 2004
From: ronallarson at QWEST.NET (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <WED.3.MAR.2004.073837.0700.RONALLARSON@QWEST.NET>

In the (Southern - mostly Kafa) part of Ethiopia where I have spent the
most time there are a group of plants called false banana or enset. See
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/African_Studies/Hornet/Enset_Culture_19761.html
Lots of starch, lots of work to obtain, but found around EVERY house -
apparently mainly because it withstands drought (not a problem in Kafa).
I can conceive it being appropriate in India for your digesters - if easy
way can be found to chop up.
Ron

> Dear Paul,
> the category of crops you mention are banana (fruits and underground
> rhizome), taro (leaves serve as vegetable), tapioca (aerial stems can be
> used as woody fuel), Psophocarpus tetragonolobus (leaves and green pods as
> vegetables). However, except for banana, the rhizomes and tubers of all
> others are also eaten by humans. There may be more such crops, but I can
> think of only the above three. There is a large number of tree species
that
> have an underground tuber, called lignotuber, because it is quite woody.
I
> am planning to conduct a study of the lignotubers to see what other
> nutrients they contain. Jatropha has such tubers, and so have many species
> of Eucalyptus.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 3:18 AM
> Subject: [STOVES] Rootfuels
>
<snip>

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Wed Mar 3 14:22:27 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20040303081723.009839d0@btlmail.btl.net>
Message-ID: <WED.3.MAR.2004.132227.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 08:18:40AM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
> At 06:07 AM 3/3/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
>
> >tapioca (aerial stems can be used as woody fuel)
>
> Are you referring to Cassava??
>
> Cassava probably beats all records as a starch producer. Grows just about
> anywhere -- under any conditions -- in the tropics/sub-tropics.
>
> Since AD first brought up the subject of his starch fed methane biogass
> maker -- Cassava has been on my mind.
>
> AD -- have you worked with Cassava yet?
>
> Also -- for those of you to the North -- is not Bulrush -- cattail -- also
> of very starch filled root??

Not Bulrush, cattail is the one. Very high yeilding even in the wild, 28
*dry* tons per acre, 40% starch. Excellent ethanol crop. Or just excellent food
crop. It was a big menu item for the indigs.
But of course nothing will happen with it in the US since it doesn't fit into
the whole crop subsidy/corporate welfare scam.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Wed Mar 3 15:31:24 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <20040303192227.GA3831@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <WED.3.MAR.2004.163124.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

Was the question of Cassava answered?
Is that the same as yucca root?
in a previous message, Harmon Seaver on 3/3/04 15:22 at
hseaver@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 08:18:40AM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>> At 06:07 AM 3/3/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
>>
>>> tapioca (aerial stems can be used as woody fuel)
>>
>> Are you referring to Cassava??
>>
>> Cassava probably beats all records as a starch producer. Grows just about
>> anywhere -- under any conditions -- in the tropics/sub-tropics.
>>
>> Since AD first brought up the subject of his starch fed methane biogass
>> maker -- Cassava has been on my mind.
>>
>> AD -- have you worked with Cassava yet?
>>
>> Also -- for those of you to the North -- is not Bulrush -- cattail -- also
>> of very starch filled root??
>
>
> Not Bulrush, cattail is the one. Very high yeilding even in the wild, 28
> *dry* tons per acre, 40% starch. Excellent ethanol crop. Or just excellent
> food
> crop. It was a big menu item for the indigs.
> But of course nothing will happen with it in the US since it doesn't fit into
> the whole crop subsidy/corporate welfare scam.
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>

--
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that
is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela

David Whitfield
Director
CEDESOL
P.O. Box 4723
La Paz Bolivia South America
591-2-2414882 office 591 715 16356 cellular

solar1@zuper.net
aguaviva@zuper.net
dewv@yahoo.com

http://www.solarcooking.org/media/broadcast/whitfield/bio-whitfield.htm

http://www.thehungersite.com

From snkm at BTL.NET Wed Mar 3 21:31:21 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <WED.3.MAR.2004.203121.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 04:31 PM 3/3/2004 -0400, Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia
Solar wrote:
>Was the question of Cassava answered?
>Is that the same as yucca root?

No it was not -- and yes -- Cassava is Yucca Root -- and it is from either
"name" that tapioca is made.

Probably the single richest plant source of pure starch.

One acre produces incredible quantities -- and roots extremely easy to
harvest.

However -- they do contain cyanide -- which is usually broke down by
boiling the roots first. This is an energy problem -- if so required.

Ergo -- my asking AD about Tapioca being Cassava (yucca) --- and if so --
if his bacterial process has problems with the cyanide.

Harmon Seaver answered on the Cattail -- I can only agree 100% iwht his
comments -- to bad Cattail is not politically correct in the US -- else it
would be an energy revolution for the Americans -- and Canadians -- not to
mention a secure -- healthy -- new food source.

Peter

>in a previous message, Harmon Seaver on 3/3/04 15:22 at
>hseaver@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 08:18:40AM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>>> At 06:07 AM 3/3/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
>>>
>>>> tapioca (aerial stems can be used as woody fuel)
>>>
>>> Are you referring to Cassava??
>>>
>>> Cassava probably beats all records as a starch producer. Grows just about
>>> anywhere -- under any conditions -- in the tropics/sub-tropics.
>>>
>>> Since AD first brought up the subject of his starch fed methane biogass
>>> maker -- Cassava has been on my mind.
>>>
>>> AD -- have you worked with Cassava yet?
>>>
>>> Also -- for those of you to the North -- is not Bulrush -- cattail -- also
>>> of very starch filled root??
>>
>>
>> Not Bulrush, cattail is the one. Very high yeilding even in the wild, 28
>> *dry* tons per acre, 40% starch. Excellent ethanol crop. Or just excellent
>> food
>> crop. It was a big menu item for the indigs.
>> But of course nothing will happen with it in the US since it doesn't
fit into
>> the whole crop subsidy/corporate welfare scam.
>>
>> --
>> Harmon Seaver
>> CyberShamanix
>> http://www.cybershamanix.com
>>
>
>-

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Thu Mar 4 09:14:33 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.071433.0700.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear Krispin, Karve, Das , Shivayam and Others:

What goes around sometimes comes around - better.

Our stoves are currently being manufactured by Shivayam, using simple tools
of his own devising. We anticipate that to get to a billion stoves we need
to employ more expensive techniques in some countries, but would like to
propagate these simple tools in other countries. One of the best and
simplest is a combination metal shear, roll and bending brake - purchased
from Harbor Freight for <$300. Another is a spot welder (made in Armenia!)
for < $200.

Granted that clay is even simpler to fabricate, (but not to use or carry or
to insulate or not crack), metal is the material of choice for many stoves
and we all need to get better at simple metal work.

~~~~~~~
In the 1970s Agua Das (Shivayam's father) formed "TIPI WORKSHOP" - Tools in
the People's Interest. Many new tools amplify each of our abilities a
thousandfold when we learn to use them judiciously. The microcredit,
computer, the cell phone, and lots of tools I can buy inexpensively now from
Harbor Freight, Tool-King etc. are all "Tools in the People's Interest".

However, Schumaker's book "Small is Beautiful" can be a red herring. Mao
read it and decided that the Chinese could make steel in their back yards.
Set them back 20 years. A more appropriate title would have been
"Appropriate is Beautiful", and the scale of appropriate changes all the
time.

Onward, upward and downward..... TOM REED BEF

----- Original Message -----
From: "adkarve" <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] sustainability of microenterprises

> Dear Crispin,
> I have nothing against factory made goods. There are certain goods, that
> have to be made in a factory, because the artisan lacks the capital to
> invest in things like a steel rolling mill. But the situation has changed
in
> the case of many other type of goods, because, at least in India, the cost
> of transport, cost of energy, the salaries of the factory employees
> (especially of the unproductive workers like the advertisement executives,
> economic analysts, taxation experts, the Managing Directors, the
accountants
> etc. who sit in their air-conditioned offices) have increased to such an
> extent, that many of the artisanal products are again in a position to
> compete with the factory made items. For instance, artisanal manufacturers
> of leather goods were pauperised in the last century because they could
not
> compete with the factories. But now, because of the changed circumstances,
> they are experiencing a boom. With the help of the Central Leather
Research
> Institute in Chennai, they were able to adopt modern methods like
> computerised footware designing, modern manufacturing tools and modern
> materials like polymers for the soles. One can buy a well crafted and
modish
> looking pair of shoes from a village artisan at about half the price of a
> factory made and brand named pair. Similarly, hand made cloth is making a
> comeback in a big way in Rajasthan. Food, cleansing agents, wooden
> furniture, are some other objects, which can be made much more cheaply in
a
> village than in the organised industrial sector.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [STOVES] sustainability of microenterprises
>
>
> > Dear Stovers
> >
> > Dr Karve (Snr) has raised a very important point that is frequently
> > taken for granted or ignored. Disemination by artisanal production has
> > certain advantages, but really low-level success is conditioned on what
> > basically amount to underdevelopment - a sort of "benefit for
> > backwardness". The problem is there are real costs in this approach as
> > well.
> >
> > I come from a family of designers and it has been my observation many
> > years ago that one of the problems facing developing communities is that
> > the benefits in the advancement in science (at all levels) are not
> > brought to bear on the problems of the poor.
> >
> > Manufacturing science is ruthlessly applied to solving the problems
> > involving production of consumer goods and things of high market value.
> > Designers are of course attracted to such industries. Machinists and
> > equipment producers concentrate on production methods involving ever
> > less labour and ever more capital.
> >
> > On the other hand, artisanal production is stuck in a time warp or even
> > going backwards. The hammer, the tongs and the trowel have not changed
> > in centuries. It might surprise an ordinary observer to visit a
> > production workshop in a museum of woodworking to see how the craftiness
> > and imagination of former years was applied to increasing the
> > productivity of labour-based methods. It took a lifetime to learn all
> > the tricks of the trade of mass production with hand labour. It appears
> > to me that efforts to improve such methods further taking advantage of
> > modern materials stopped years ago, not because it is not profitable to
> > do so, but because it has been forgotten, bypassed. This is a great
> > loss and simultaneously a great opportunity.
> >
> > There are many advantages to mass production which are called 'economies
> > of scale' and also there are many 'dis-economies of scale' that are not
> > factored into the true cost of products. We can all cite examples.
> >
> > It has been my mission to consciously bring modern materials, design
> > approaches and production skills to simple devices. There are major
> > opportunities and large markets awaiting the better hand crafted
> > product.
> >
> > One approach to the problem (or issue) is the 'intermediate technology'
> > approach in which old medium scale equipment and 50 to 100 year old
> > methods are offered as an intermediary step between the old and the
> > modern production systems. I am against this approach. There is no
> > reason not to advocate the use of every theoretical and practical tool
> > and material to the solution of simple technological problems
> > (computers, CAD, physics, modelling, cobalt, carbon fibres, ceramics
> > etc).
> >
> > It is my experience that instead of having to choose between the modern
> > mass production methods or traditional artisanal methods, there is real
> > potential in manufacturing on a medium scale in a modern factory using
> > wise and educated people who have manual tools for some jobs and
> > mechanized ones for others. The mechanization does not need to be low
> > quality tooling made from dreadful materials. Good quality tools make
> > good, consistent products. It may be unfair for "a poor workman to
> > blame his tools", but it is quite permissible for a good workman to
> > blame poor tools.
> >
> > Having accepted the general argument in principle, we can look at the
> > things people use in their homes.
> >
> > Is a stove not a tool? Is a pot not a tool? Why are they expensive or
> > fragile? Is it the distribution system? Missing subsidies? Greed?
> > Incompetence? Or, why are some stove prices so low that if the
> > disemmination programme succeeded, it would bankrupt the implementers?
> > What is the true cost of making a stove available, and what is a
> > realistic price? And what do you get for the money? I have every
> > confidence that the members of this list are applying themselves to
> > these questions, but the majority of the globe's designers, marketers
> > and manufacturers are not. And of course the things needed go far
> > beyond stoves. I am suspicious that we are not aiming high enough on
> > the manufacturing ladder. Cell phones with several million parts are
> > bought by rural poor people at market related prices. Is it such a
> > problem to do the same with stoves? Where is the Toyota of stoves?
> >
> > My bottom line is that it seems unfair for a rural poor person to have
> > to pay a higher price for an artisanal stove than a mass produced one
> > because of a 'development' ideology. That is just making the poor
> > poorer.
> >
> > It is equally unfair for a distribution system to burden the price of a
> > mass produced stove because of a consumer ideology. That is just making
> > the rich richer. I read in Dr Karve's comments my own philosophy: that
> > there are optimized scales and modern methods of labour-based production
> > that capitalize on the unique attributes of regions and communities. In
> > all cases, they are almost never the totally manual nor the totally
> > global supply solutions. These alternatives we should seek.
> >
> > Regards
> > Crispin
> >
> > +++++++++++++++
> >
> >
> > Dear stovers,
> > this is an important aspect, which also applies to stoves and biomass
> > based improved fuels. Introduction of machines allows mass production
> > at a much cheaper rate. This destroyed a number of village based
> > enterprises based on cloth, clothing, leather, bread making, sugar
> > making, metal working, etc. Availability of cheap new plastics destroyed
> > another set of rural industries. But in comparison to the last ccentury,
> > the cost of transport as well as the wages in the organised sector have
> > increased. For a product made in a central manufacturing unit to reach
> > the consumer, it must be transported over long distances, stored in a
> > network of warehouses and sold through a network of distributers and
> > sales outlets. All this costs money. Thus in the present situation,
> > although the manufacturing cost is low, the cost of selling is high. A
> > small manufacturer, who operates a business as a family business, uses
> > local raw materials, and deals directly with the end-user, is nowadays
> > well in a position to compete successfully with the organised industry.
> > He also has an added advantage that he is generally not bothered by laws
> > like the minimum wage act, the act dectating the minimum age of the
> > employees, the social service tax, insurance of employees, sales tax,
> > and many other taxes which the organised industry has to pay. In
> > addition, he also does not have unproductive employees like
> > accountants, security guards, telephone operators, tax consultants,
> > legal advisers, etc. Therefore, even if his cost of production is high,
> > his products are often available at a lower cost to the consumer than
> > the mass produced items. This principle applies to our improved
> > cookstoves manufactured by potters, using local clay and sold directly
> > to the users. We are now also trying to introduce, in the same manner,
> > charcoal made from agro-waste as a rural household fuel. The same
> > principle may also apply to locally extracted edible oil, locally made
> > honey, locally made sugar, locally made jams, jellies, pickles etc. But
> > unfortunately, the micro-entrepreneurs manufacturing many of these items
> > are greedy and price their products on par with the branded products,
> > and then lament the fact that the buyers prefered the better known
> > brands to the locally made items. Dr.A.D.Karve, President, Appropriate
> > Rural Technology Institute, Pune, India.

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Thu Mar 4 09:34:44 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.073444.0700.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear Cripin, Nandu and All:

There is a great deal of wisdom in both letters below, and local conditions
will continue to sort out the messages contained there. I hope that Crispin
and Nandu can write a joint recommendation on "Appropriate is Beautiful" and
trump Schumacher's "Small is Beautiful" message.

TOM REED BEF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] sustainability of microenterprises

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Thu Mar 4 09:43:43 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: [ethos] Re: Rocket Stove in Ghana
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.074343.0700.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear Bryan and all:

Cooking with charcoal can be simpler and cleaner than cooking with wood (not
woodgas!).

However, making the charcoal usually involves wasting 80% of the energy in
the wood (sugar cane trash, rice hulls etc.) AND putting most of the
volatiles into the air for the rest of us to breathe, thereby externalizing
their health problems.

At the beginning of WWII there were many charcoal gasifiers, operating the
cars and trucks. There wouldn't have been any forests left in Europe by
1945 if they hadn't switched to woodgas. So I hope we won't look on
charcoal as a long term solution to cooking problems.

Yours truly, TOM REED
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Willson" <Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>
To: "'Stuart Conway'" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>; "'Dean Still'"
<dstill@epud.net>
Cc: <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:03 PM
Subject: RE: [ethos] Re: Rocket Stove in Ghana

> Stuart -
>
> Pat Pellicane (CSU Dean of Graduate Studies) was in Ghana last summer
('04)
> on reforestation issues. I think he's been been working there off and on
> for several years. I assume you know him since he was a forestry
professor
> before becoming Dean. I'm pretty sure he's familiar with TWP and we've
> discussed stoves in the past.
>
> On stove use in Ghana: while traveling to Benin last February I was
diverted
> into Ghana at the last minute because of airline strikes. I didn't have a
> Ghana or Togo visa so had to spend a couple of days waiting for the visas
to
> be processes. I looked at markets in Accra and only found charcoal stoves
> in the market. I guess that's not too surprising given that Accra is
urban.
>
>
> - Bryan Willson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu [mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu]
On
> Behalf Of Stuart Conway
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 12:14 PM
> To: Dean Still
> Cc: ethos@vrac.iastate.edu; STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Subject: [ethos] Re: Rocket Stove in Ghana
>
> Hi Dean, et al,
>
> Two TWP members, David and Jill Ellis, are going to Ghana for a meeting
> on reforestation, forest conservation and development. I'm sending them
> information on the Rocket stove. They would like Aprovecho to send a
> Rocket stove to Ghana for the conference so that they can demonstrate
> one at the conference. Their contact is Princess Naa Asie Ocansey who is
> organizing the conference and has contacts with UN officials in her
> country. Can you send a Rocket stove to Ghana? I'll pay the freight
> cost.
>
> Dave and Jill are leaving on Saturday, but the conference runs from the
> 7-11th of March.
>
> Also, I was wondering if Aprovecho or anyone on the ETHOS list had
> contacts in Ghana who are already making Rocket stoves and would be
> willing to demonstrate the Rocket at the conference?
>
> Here is the mailing address, Dean:
>
> Princess Naa Asie Ocansey
> P. O. Box 77
> Tema, Ghana
>
> Yes, this is for real!
>
> Also, Ron Larson can you send this message on the Stoves list, as there
> may be someone on your list in Ghana.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stuart Conway
> Trees, Water & People
>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with
> this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
> ---
>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with
> this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
> ---

From phoenix98604 at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 4 10:28:54 2004
From: phoenix98604 at EARTHLINK.NET (Art Krenzel)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.072854.0800.PHOENIX98604@EARTHLINK.NET>

Tom,

When Shivayam gets past building 100 stoves, introduce him to a computer
operated plasma torch and watch the hand shear be thrown into the trash.
Repeatable cutting at over 500 inches per minute within a few thousandth
accuracy, all day long, the machine will get him to your goal of a billion
stoves within even your life time (potentially). Using simple tools sound
good and "earthy" but if mass production is your goal, new science can do it
better, faster and cheaper. I know, I tried it.

Art Krenzel, P.E.
PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
10505 NE 285TH Street
Battle Ground, WA 98604
360-666-1883 voice
phoenix98604@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "TBReed" <tombreed@COMCAST.NET>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] sustainability of microenterprises

> Dear Krispin, Karve, Das , Shivayam and Others:
>
> What goes around sometimes comes around - better.
>
> Our stoves are currently being manufactured by Shivayam, using simple
tools
> of his own devising. We anticipate that to get to a billion stoves we
need
> to employ more expensive techniques in some countries, but would like to
> propagate these simple tools in other countries. One of the best and
> simplest is a combination metal shear, roll and bending brake - purchased
> from Harbor Freight for <$300. Another is a spot welder (made in
Armenia!)
> for < $200.
>
> Granted that clay is even simpler to fabricate, (but not to use or carry
or
> to insulate or not crack), metal is the material of choice for many stoves
> and we all need to get better at simple metal work.
>
> ~~~~~~~
> In the 1970s Agua Das (Shivayam's father) formed "TIPI WORKSHOP" - Tools
in
> the People's Interest. Many new tools amplify each of our abilities a
> thousandfold when we learn to use them judiciously. The microcredit,
> computer, the cell phone, and lots of tools I can buy inexpensively now
from
> Harbor Freight, Tool-King etc. are all "Tools in the People's Interest".
>
> However, Schumaker's book "Small is Beautiful" can be a red herring. Mao
> read it and decided that the Chinese could make steel in their back yards.
> Set them back 20 years. A more appropriate title would have been
> "Appropriate is Beautiful", and the scale of appropriate changes all the
> time.
>
> Onward, upward and downward..... TOM REED BEF
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "adkarve" <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 7:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [STOVES] sustainability of microenterprises
>
>
> > Dear Crispin,
> > I have nothing against factory made goods. There are certain goods, that
> > have to be made in a factory, because the artisan lacks the capital to
> > invest in things like a steel rolling mill. But the situation has
changed
> in
> > the case of many other type of goods, because, at least in India, the
cost
> > of transport, cost of energy, the salaries of the factory employees
> > (especially of the unproductive workers like the advertisement
executives,
> > economic analysts, taxation experts, the Managing Directors, the
> accountants
> > etc. who sit in their air-conditioned offices) have increased to such an
> > extent, that many of the artisanal products are again in a position to
> > compete with the factory made items. For instance, artisanal
manufacturers
> > of leather goods were pauperised in the last century because they could
> not
> > compete with the factories. But now, because of the changed
circumstances,
> > they are experiencing a boom. With the help of the Central Leather
> Research
> > Institute in Chennai, they were able to adopt modern methods like
> > computerised footware designing, modern manufacturing tools and modern
> > materials like polymers for the soles. One can buy a well crafted and
> modish
> > looking pair of shoes from a village artisan at about half the price of
a
> > factory made and brand named pair. Similarly, hand made cloth is making
a
> > comeback in a big way in Rajasthan. Food, cleansing agents, wooden
> > furniture, are some other objects, which can be made much more cheaply
in
> a
> > village than in the organised industrial sector.
> > Yours
> > A.D.Karve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> > To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:50 AM
> > Subject: Re: [STOVES] sustainability of microenterprises
> >
> >
> > > Dear Stovers
> > >
> > > Dr Karve (Snr) has raised a very important point that is frequently
> > > taken for granted or ignored. Disemination by artisanal production
has
> > > certain advantages, but really low-level success is conditioned on
what
> > > basically amount to underdevelopment - a sort of "benefit for
> > > backwardness". The problem is there are real costs in this approach
as
> > > well.
> > >
> > > I come from a family of designers and it has been my observation many
> > > years ago that one of the problems facing developing communities is
that
> > > the benefits in the advancement in science (at all levels) are not
> > > brought to bear on the problems of the poor.
> > >
> > > Manufacturing science is ruthlessly applied to solving the problems
> > > involving production of consumer goods and things of high market
value.
> > > Designers are of course attracted to such industries. Machinists and
> > > equipment producers concentrate on production methods involving ever
> > > less labour and ever more capital.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, artisanal production is stuck in a time warp or
even
> > > going backwards. The hammer, the tongs and the trowel have not
changed
> > > in centuries. It might surprise an ordinary observer to visit a
> > > production workshop in a museum of woodworking to see how the
craftiness
> > > and imagination of former years was applied to increasing the
> > > productivity of labour-based methods. It took a lifetime to learn all
> > > the tricks of the trade of mass production with hand labour. It
appears
> > > to me that efforts to improve such methods further taking advantage of
> > > modern materials stopped years ago, not because it is not profitable
to
> > > do so, but because it has been forgotten, bypassed. This is a great
> > > loss and simultaneously a great opportunity.
> > >
> > > There are many advantages to mass production which are called
'economies
> > > of scale' and also there are many 'dis-economies of scale' that are
not
> > > factored into the true cost of products. We can all cite examples.
> > >
> > > It has been my mission to consciously bring modern materials, design
> > > approaches and production skills to simple devices. There are major
> > > opportunities and large markets awaiting the better hand crafted
> > > product.
> > >
> > > One approach to the problem (or issue) is the 'intermediate
technology'
> > > approach in which old medium scale equipment and 50 to 100 year old
> > > methods are offered as an intermediary step between the old and the
> > > modern production systems. I am against this approach. There is no
> > > reason not to advocate the use of every theoretical and practical tool
> > > and material to the solution of simple technological problems
> > > (computers, CAD, physics, modelling, cobalt, carbon fibres, ceramics
> > > etc).
> > >
> > > It is my experience that instead of having to choose between the
modern
> > > mass production methods or traditional artisanal methods, there is
real
> > > potential in manufacturing on a medium scale in a modern factory using
> > > wise and educated people who have manual tools for some jobs and
> > > mechanized ones for others. The mechanization does not need to be low
> > > quality tooling made from dreadful materials. Good quality tools make
> > > good, consistent products. It may be unfair for "a poor workman to
> > > blame his tools", but it is quite permissible for a good workman to
> > > blame poor tools.
> > >
> > > Having accepted the general argument in principle, we can look at the
> > > things people use in their homes.
> > >
> > > Is a stove not a tool? Is a pot not a tool? Why are they expensive
or
> > > fragile? Is it the distribution system? Missing subsidies? Greed?
> > > Incompetence? Or, why are some stove prices so low that if the
> > > disemmination programme succeeded, it would bankrupt the implementers?
> > > What is the true cost of making a stove available, and what is a
> > > realistic price? And what do you get for the money? I have every
> > > confidence that the members of this list are applying themselves to
> > > these questions, but the majority of the globe's designers, marketers
> > > and manufacturers are not. And of course the things needed go far
> > > beyond stoves. I am suspicious that we are not aiming high enough on
> > > the manufacturing ladder. Cell phones with several million parts are
> > > bought by rural poor people at market related prices. Is it such a
> > > problem to do the same with stoves? Where is the Toyota of stoves?
> > >
> > > My bottom line is that it seems unfair for a rural poor person to have
> > > to pay a higher price for an artisanal stove than a mass produced one
> > > because of a 'development' ideology. That is just making the poor
> > > poorer.
> > >
> > > It is equally unfair for a distribution system to burden the price of
a
> > > mass produced stove because of a consumer ideology. That is just
making
> > > the rich richer. I read in Dr Karve's comments my own philosophy:
that
> > > there are optimized scales and modern methods of labour-based
production
> > > that capitalize on the unique attributes of regions and communities.
In
> > > all cases, they are almost never the totally manual nor the totally
> > > global supply solutions. These alternatives we should seek.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Crispin
> > >
> > > +++++++++++++++
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear stovers,
> > > this is an important aspect, which also applies to stoves and biomass
> > > based improved fuels. Introduction of machines allows mass production
> > > at a much cheaper rate. This destroyed a number of village based
> > > enterprises based on cloth, clothing, leather, bread making, sugar
> > > making, metal working, etc. Availability of cheap new plastics
destroyed
> > > another set of rural industries. But in comparison to the last
ccentury,
> > > the cost of transport as well as the wages in the organised sector
have
> > > increased. For a product made in a central manufacturing unit to
reach
> > > the consumer, it must be transported over long distances, stored in a
> > > network of warehouses and sold through a network of distributers and
> > > sales outlets. All this costs money. Thus in the present situation,
> > > although the manufacturing cost is low, the cost of selling is high.
A
> > > small manufacturer, who operates a business as a family business, uses
> > > local raw materials, and deals directly with the end-user, is nowadays
> > > well in a position to compete successfully with the organised
industry.
> > > He also has an added advantage that he is generally not bothered by
laws
> > > like the minimum wage act, the act dectating the minimum age of the
> > > employees, the social service tax, insurance of employees, sales tax,
> > > and many other taxes which the organised industry has to pay. In
> > > addition, he also does not have unproductive employees like
> > > accountants, security guards, telephone operators, tax consultants,
> > > legal advisers, etc. Therefore, even if his cost of production is
high,
> > > his products are often available at a lower cost to the consumer than
> > > the mass produced items. This principle applies to our improved
> > > cookstoves manufactured by potters, using local clay and sold directly
> > > to the users. We are now also trying to introduce, in the same
manner,
> > > charcoal made from agro-waste as a rural household fuel. The same
> > > principle may also apply to locally extracted edible oil, locally made
> > > honey, locally made sugar, locally made jams, jellies, pickles etc.
But
> > > unfortunately, the micro-entrepreneurs manufacturing many of these
items
> > > are greedy and price their products on par with the branded products,
> > > and then lament the fact that the buyers prefered the better known
> > > brands to the locally made items. Dr.A.D.Karve, President, Appropriate
> > > Rural Technology Institute, Pune, India.

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Thu Mar 4 10:46:02 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
In-Reply-To: <001701c3ffd3$1dbf1430$e49dfea9@home>
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.094602.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Mon, Mar 01, 2004 at 11:20:59PM +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
> Dear Stovers

(much good stuff snipped)

>
> It is my experience that instead of having to choose between the modern
> mass production methods or traditional artisanal methods, there is real
> potential in manufacturing on a medium scale in a modern factory using
> wise and educated people who have manual tools for some jobs and
> mechanized ones for others. The mechanization does not need to be low
> quality tooling made from dreadful materials. Good quality tools make
> good, consistent products. It may be unfair for "a poor workman to
> blame his tools", but it is quite permissible for a good workman to
> blame poor tools.
>

Tom mentioned Harbor Freight -- I would advise people to be quite cautious in
purchasing from such companies, there are some pretty junky tools being sold
these days. I bought a floor model drill press, made in China, very cheap but
very poor quality. For instance, where you would normally see measuring rules
for depth, etc. made of steel and riveted on precisely, there was only decals
which weren't even close and soon fell off.
More or less usable, yes, but certainly not for precision work and who knows
how long it will last?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Mar 3 20:00:47 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.063047.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Tapioca (Manihot esculentus) is the same as cassava but it has nothing to do
with Yucca. Tapioca is a dicot plant beconging to the family Euphorbiaceae,
whereas Yucca is a monocot, belonging to the Familie Amarillidaceae. Ron
also mentioned a false banana. There are
wild species of banana in India too. They have fruits with big black seeds
and therefore the fruit is not eaten. This plant also has a large
underground rhizome. If one were to look at wild plants, there are many
candidates, but the wild plants have not been subjected to plant breeding
and therefore they give low yield. There is also a weed called nutgrass
(Cyperus rotundus), that has underground tubers. The tubers are valued in
India because they contain a perfume. As a result they are very costly and
were therefore not considered by me as a source of methane. Typha grows in
India too. In irrigated farm areas, it chokes the water channels. Therefore
it has to be periodically removed. I shall try to dig some out and look at
the rhizomes. Thanks for the suggestion.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Rootfuels

> On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 08:18:40AM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
> > At 06:07 AM 3/3/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> >
> > >tapioca (aerial stems can be used as woody fuel)
> >
> > Are you referring to Cassava??
> >
> > Cassava probably beats all records as a starch producer. Grows just
about
> > anywhere -- under any conditions -- in the tropics/sub-tropics.
> >
> > Since AD first brought up the subject of his starch fed methane biogass
> > maker -- Cassava has been on my mind.
> >
> > AD -- have you worked with Cassava yet?
> >
> > Also -- for those of you to the North -- is not Bulrush -- cattail --
also
> > of very starch filled root??
>
>
> Not Bulrush, cattail is the one. Very high yeilding even in the wild,
28
> *dry* tons per acre, 40% starch. Excellent ethanol crop. Or just excellent
food
> crop. It was a big menu item for the indigs.
> But of course nothing will happen with it in the US since it doesn't
fit into
> the whole crop subsidy/corporate welfare scam.
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Mar 4 11:18:40 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Charcoal as cooking fuel
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.214840.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Tom,
India produces about 500 million tonnes of agricultural waste every year.
India has about 140 million families living in villages, who are currently
using wood, dung cakes, corn cobs, stalks of cotton, etc. as domestic fuel.
A family would need annually about 200 kg of charcoal to cook its food.
Therefore, the total amount of charcoal needed by the Indian rural
population calculates to about 28 million tonnes per annum. With 20% rate of
conversion of biomass into charcoal, one would need only about 140 million
tonnes of biomass. When charcoal is made by using the oven-and-retort
process, as we are doing in our own programme, the volatiles are burned in
the kiln itself and not released into the atmosphere.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: TBReed <tombreed@COMCAST.NET>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] [ethos] Re: Rocket Stove in Ghana

> Dear Bryan and all:
>
> Cooking with charcoal can be simpler and cleaner than cooking with wood
(not
> woodgas!).
>
> However, making the charcoal usually involves wasting 80% of the energy in
> the wood (sugar cane trash, rice hulls etc.) AND putting most of the
> volatiles into the air for the rest of us to breathe, thereby
externalizing
> their health problems.
>
> At the beginning of WWII there were many charcoal gasifiers, operating the
> cars and trucks. There wouldn't have been any forests left in Europe by
> 1945 if they hadn't switched to woodgas. So I hope we won't look on
> charcoal as a long term solution to cooking problems.
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bryan Willson" <Bryan.Willson@colostate.edu>
> To: "'Stuart Conway'" <stuart@treeswaterpeople.org>; "'Dean Still'"
> <dstill@epud.net>
> Cc: <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:03 PM
> Subject: RE: [ethos] Re: Rocket Stove in Ghana
>
>
> > Stuart -
> >
> > Pat Pellicane (CSU Dean of Graduate Studies) was in Ghana last summer
> ('04)
> > on reforestation issues. I think he's been been working there off and
on
> > for several years. I assume you know him since he was a forestry
> professor
> > before becoming Dean. I'm pretty sure he's familiar with TWP and we've
> > discussed stoves in the past.
> >
> > On stove use in Ghana: while traveling to Benin last February I was
> diverted
> > into Ghana at the last minute because of airline strikes. I didn't have
a
> > Ghana or Togo visa so had to spend a couple of days waiting for the
visas
> to
> > be processes. I looked at markets in Accra and only found charcoal
stoves
> > in the market. I guess that's not too surprising given that Accra is
> urban.
> >
> >
> > - Bryan Willson
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu [mailto:owner-ethos@vrac.iastate.edu]
> On
> > Behalf Of Stuart Conway
> > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 12:14 PM
> > To: Dean Still
> > Cc: ethos@vrac.iastate.edu; STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> > Subject: [ethos] Re: Rocket Stove in Ghana
> >
> > Hi Dean, et al,
> >
> > Two TWP members, David and Jill Ellis, are going to Ghana for a meeting
> > on reforestation, forest conservation and development. I'm sending them
> > information on the Rocket stove. They would like Aprovecho to send a
> > Rocket stove to Ghana for the conference so that they can demonstrate
> > one at the conference. Their contact is Princess Naa Asie Ocansey who is
> > organizing the conference and has contacts with UN officials in her
> > country. Can you send a Rocket stove to Ghana? I'll pay the freight
> > cost.
> >
> > Dave and Jill are leaving on Saturday, but the conference runs from the
> > 7-11th of March.
> >
> > Also, I was wondering if Aprovecho or anyone on the ETHOS list had
> > contacts in Ghana who are already making Rocket stoves and would be
> > willing to demonstrate the Rocket at the conference?
> >
> > Here is the mailing address, Dean:
> >
> > Princess Naa Asie Ocansey
> > P. O. Box 77
> > Tema, Ghana
> >
> > Yes, this is for real!
> >
> > Also, Ron Larson can you send this message on the Stoves list, as there
> > may be someone on your list in Ghana.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Stuart Conway
> > Trees, Water & People
> >
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with
> > this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
> > ---
> >
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with
> > this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
> > ---

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 4 14:43:20 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <105.4086eeec.2d7679e8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.134320.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

I am forwarding what Gene sent to me.

Any other above ground crops that produce footfuels?

Paul

At 06:59 PM 3/2/04 -0500, GeneShu@aol.com wrote:
>Now to your questions:
>
>Could you mention some crops that give product above ground, and we can
>still utilize the rootfuels. Well, there's buffalo gourd itself! The seeds
>are a good source of seedoil of high quality, similar to high-linoleic
>sunflower
>oils, also similar to soybean oil but w/o the linolenic acid which oxidizes
>readily and affects flavor adversely. Bemis' research grouip at UI. of
>Arizona
>estimated an oil yield of 91 gal/acre, also seed protein of 586 lb/acre.
>
>Can we assume that virtually all of the useful rootfuels will be better in
>sandy soils both because of the ease for the roots to grow large and for
>the ease of harvest? I think so. Any exceptions to this? None I know of
>offhand.

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 4 14:56:15 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <000201c40126$e66e7480$5b5e41db@adkarve>
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.135615.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

AD and Gene and Stovers,

The bananas and the trees are not annual crops, so getting the rootfuels
would be detrimental to the main purpose of growing the bananas and trees.

But are tapioca and Psophocarpus tetragonolobus annuals (or short cycle
plants) where root harvest could be conducted?

So far, the list with above and below ground products is quite short, with
buffalo gourd as the leading contender!! Is buffalo gourd fruit/vegetable
available anywhere? what are its uses?

Paul

At 06:07 AM 3/3/04 +0530, adkarve wrote:
>Dear Paul,
>the category of crops you mention are banana (fruits and underground
>rhizome), taro (leaves serve as vegetable), tapioca (aerial stems can be
>used as woody fuel), Psophocarpus tetragonolobus (leaves and green pods as
>vegetables). However, except for banana, the rhizomes and tubers of all
>others are also eaten by humans. There may be more such crops, but I can
>think of only the above three. There is a large number of tree species that
>have an underground tuber, called lignotuber, because it is quite woody. I
>am planning to conduct a study of the lignotubers to see what other
>nutrients they contain. Jatropha has such tubers, and so have many species
>of Eucalyptus.
>Yours
>A.D.Karve
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
>To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 3:18 AM
>Subject: [STOVES] Rootfuels
>
>
> > Gene,
> >
> > Could you mention some crops that give product above ground, and we can
> > still utilize the rootfuels.
> >
> > Can we assume that virtually all of the useful rootfuels will be better in
> > sandy soils both because of the ease for the roots to grow large and for
> > the ease of harvest? Any exceptions to this?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > At 06:06 PM 2/29/04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
> > >Stovers - again a reply from Gene. Ron
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Thu Mar 4 14:54:45 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Charcoal as cooking fuel
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.215445.0200.>

Dear A.D.

I have been testing fuels this week and I have managed to get a decent
'cook' using coconut husks but breaking them into fairly small
banana-shaped pieces (smaller than I first thought they have to be) and
charcoaling them in a Vesto and then burning the charcoal.

My earliest trials using a Tsotso stove were only successful for 20
seconds out of 160, and the other 140 seconds it smoked a lot. The
right air flow seems to solve this completely. I was able to boil and
simmer water (3 litres in a 4 litre pot).

The disadvantage of coconut husks is that it has to be added more
frequently than wood, however perhaps a large capacity will resolve
this. It wasn't all _that_ inconvenient in the present layout.

I don't know if you are counting coconut husks in your biomass
calculation but there are millions of tons of them all over Mo?ambique
simply for the taking.

The husks I have come from the only, lonely palm tree in Swaziland!

Regards
Crispin

+++++++++++++

Dear Tom,
India produces about 500 million tonnes of agricultural waste every
year. India has about 140 million families living in villages, who are
currently using wood, dung cakes, corn cobs, stalks of cotton, etc. as
domestic fuel. A family would need annually about 200 kg of charcoal to
cook its food. Therefore, the total amount of charcoal needed by the
Indian rural population calculates to about 28 million tonnes per annum.
With 20% rate of conversion of biomass into charcoal, one would need
only about 140 million tonnes of biomass. When charcoal is made by using
the oven-and-retort process, as we are doing in our own programme, the
volatiles are burned in the kiln itself and not released into the
atmosphere. Yours A.D.Karve

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 4 16:44:21 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Use of agricultural waste dry biomass was: Re: [STOVES]
Charcoal as cooking fuel
In-Reply-To: <000001c40204$fde22ec0$de5e41db@adkarve>
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.154421.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

AD, Tom and all,

Using AD's numbers (below), we would not need to make charcoal for India's
usage IF the 80% (waste heat) of the biomass could be utilized the first
time around, that is, in the kitchen instead of in the kiln.

We would need 28 millions tons of USABLE dry biomass (out of the total 500
million tons available each year). That is just more than 5% of the total
tons available.

Granted that cane leaves in the fields present transportation and storage
problems. But can we not find other dry biomass that is easier to
transport and store. This could include making briquettes or large
pellets, perhaps held together with a binder of some of the massive starch
content that has been mentioned recently about
cassava/manioc/yucca/whatever-has-starch.

This is ASSUMING that a suitable stove can be available. As far as
gasifiers are concerned, I am confident that soon (within 6 months??) some
results about small gasifiers (for residential and micro-industry) will be
available. The issues about what fuels will work well in which models of
gasifiers becomes important. But please remember that EVERY stove has
preferences for fuels (plural, but not many) . In most current stoves,
WOOD is favored (unfortunately for the forests) by many stoves and the
charcoal makers.

THEN, when gasifiers or other new stoves are proven, the question of fuels
will become even more important because it takes effort to make wood chunks
(small like 1 cm dimensions, but not shreds), but maybe it takes less work
to make briquettes and pellets (or to chop soft rootfuels before they
become hard).

So, back to the start of the question, of the 500 million tons of
agricultural waste, how much is in what formats (dry leaves, dry husks,
discarded "seeds" such as cahune or mango, or low-energy stalks, bagasse
from cane stalks, etc.) I consider all of these to be potential fuels for
the gasifiers. And for other stoves also if processed into stove-usable,
transportable, storable formats.

I really really like the Karve's kilns (to the point that I helped organize
some of the early funding just prior to the Ashden recognition and
award). Great for the places that need the charcoal, such as in major
urban areas. But the other millions and millions of tons of agricultural
waste dry biomass are just waiting to be useful in improved stoves.

Paul

At 09:48 PM 3/4/04 +0530, adkarve wrote:
>Dear Tom,
>India produces about 500 million tonnes of agricultural waste every year.
>India has about 140 million families living in villages, who are currently
>using wood, dung cakes, corn cobs, stalks of cotton, etc. as domestic fuel.
>A family would need annually about 200 kg of charcoal to cook its food.
>Therefore, the total amount of charcoal needed by the Indian rural
>population calculates to about 28 million tonnes per annum. With 20% rate of
>conversion of biomass into charcoal, one would need only about 140 million
>tonnes of biomass. When charcoal is made by using the oven-and-retort
>process, as we are doing in our own programme, the volatiles are burned in
>the kiln itself and not released into the atmosphere.
>Yours
>A.D.Karve
>----- Original Message -----
>From: TBReed <tombreed@COMCAST.NET>
>To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
>Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:13 PM
>Subject: Re: [STOVES] [ethos] Re: Rocket Stove in Ghana
>
>
> > Dear Bryan and all:
> >
> > Cooking with charcoal can be simpler and cleaner than cooking with wood
>(not
> > woodgas!).
> >
> > However, making the charcoal usually involves wasting 80% of the energy in
> > the wood (sugar cane trash, rice hulls etc.) AND putting most of the
> > volatiles into the air for the rest of us to breathe, thereby
>externalizing
> > their health problems.
> >
> > At the beginning of WWII there were many charcoal gasifiers, operating the
> > cars and trucks. There wouldn't have been any forests left in Europe by
> > 1945 if they hadn't switched to woodgas. So I hope we won't look on
> > charcoal as a long term solution to cooking problems.
> >

From rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG Thu Mar 4 14:41:17 2004
From: rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <20040303192227.GA3831@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.214117.0200.RSTANLEY@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>

Harmon/ Peter AD et al. ,

The cassava plant (at least what is not used locally already) works
well as an ingredient in the wet/low pressure briquette making process:
The starch helps to bind up and densify other more carboniferous
material. It does not contribute much to heat value or aroma through.
regards,
Richard Stanley

Harmon Seaver wrote:

>On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 08:18:40AM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>
>
>>At 06:07 AM 3/3/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>tapioca (aerial stems can be used as woody fuel)
>>>
>>>
>>Are you referring to Cassava??
>>
>>Cassava probably beats all records as a starch producer. Grows just about
>>anywhere -- under any conditions -- in the tropics/sub-tropics.
>>
>>Since AD first brought up the subject of his starch fed methane biogass
>>maker -- Cassava has been on my mind.
>>
>>AD -- have you worked with Cassava yet?
>>
>>Also -- for those of you to the North -- is not Bulrush -- cattail -- also
>>of very starch filled root??
>>
>>
>
>
> Not Bulrush, cattail is the one. Very high yeilding even in the wild, 28
>*dry* tons per acre, 40% starch. Excellent ethanol crop. Or just excellent food
>crop. It was a big menu item for the indigs.
> But of course nothing will happen with it in the US since it doesn't fit into
>the whole crop subsidy/corporate welfare scam.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
>
>
>
>

From rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG Thu Mar 4 16:26:59 2004
From: rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
In-Reply-To: <007101c401f5$d68df7a0$6401a8c0@TOM>
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.232659.0200.RSTANLEY@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>

Dear Tom, AD et al,
I think there is one element missing in your arguments:

The technology is only a tool for development it does not define
development . What empowers /enables gives dignity and inspires,
comprise design criteria which are as or more important than just the
economic or technical considerations many tend to so extensively
address. Between the plasma torch and the pickax it is not the issue as
much as it is the relevance and the implications to local societal
effect it has on the user and those whom he she regards s peers. At the
front, albeit abit invisibly to us, is the question of the dignity,
status and real empowerement the technology affords the user.
Of course you want to make sure it is "efficient", "accurate", "cost
effective" and "sustainable" but ignore the empowerement and dignity
factor and you have a flop in the making. Down here in our new home
outside Johannesburg, man, very educated scientists from as many well
established research institutions, indicate what they have tried by way
of technology and the list is extensive. As many more however report
that the extension efforts failed because of lack of acceptance. They
do not lack the technoplogy: What they recognise is the need to generate
meaningful dignified employment through the application of the
technology and by extension, adaptation of the technology to the situation.
We are about to dive into mechanised briquetting with a few of these
persons and institutions but one comes to appreciate, yet again, the
need to proceed, with the above lessons in mind...

Kind regards,

Richard-Stanley

TBReed wrote:

>Dear Cripin, Nandu and All:
>
>There is a great deal of wisdom in both letters below, and local conditions
>will continue to sort out the messages contained there. I hope that Crispin
>and Nandu can write a joint recommendation on "Appropriate is Beautiful" and
>trump Schumacher's "Small is Beautiful" message.
>
>TOM REED BEF
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
>To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:20 PM
>Subject: Re: [STOVES] sustainability of microenterprises
>
>
>
>
>>Dear Stovers
>>
>>Dr Karve (Snr) has raised a very important point that is frequently
>>taken for granted or ignored. Disemination by artisanal production has
>>certain advantages, but really low-level success is conditioned on what
>>basically amount to underdevelopment - a sort of "benefit for
>>backwardness". The problem is there are real costs in this approach as
>>well.
>>
>>I come from a family of designers and it has been my observation many
>>years ago that one of the problems facing developing communities is that
>>the benefits in the advancement in science (at all levels) are not
>>brought to bear on the problems of the poor.
>>
>>Manufacturing science is ruthlessly applied to solving the problems
>>involving production of consumer goods and things of high market value.
>>Designers are of course attracted to such industries. Machinists and
>>equipment producers concentrate on production methods involving ever
>>less labour and ever more capital.
>>
>>On the other hand, artisanal production is stuck in a time warp or even
>>going backwards. The hammer, the tongs and the trowel have not changed
>>in centuries. It might surprise an ordinary observer to visit a
>>production workshop in a museum of woodworking to see how the craftiness
>>and imagination of former years was applied to increasing the
>>productivity of labour-based methods. It took a lifetime to learn all
>>the tricks of the trade of mass production with hand labour. It appears
>>to me that efforts to improve such methods further taking advantage of
>>modern materials stopped years ago, not because it is not profitable to
>>do so, but because it has been forgotten, bypassed. This is a great
>>loss and simultaneously a great opportunity.
>>
>>There are many advantages to mass production which are called 'economies
>>of scale' and also there are many 'dis-economies of scale' that are not
>>factored into the true cost of products. We can all cite examples.
>>
>>It has been my mission to consciously bring modern materials, design
>>approaches and production skills to simple devices. There are major
>>opportunities and large markets awaiting the better hand crafted
>>product.
>>
>>One approach to the problem (or issue) is the 'intermediate technology'
>>approach in which old medium scale equipment and 50 to 100 year old
>>methods are offered as an intermediary step between the old and the
>>modern production systems. I am against this approach. There is no
>>reason not to advocate the use of every theoretical and practical tool
>>and material to the solution of simple technological problems
>>(computers, CAD, physics, modelling, cobalt, carbon fibres, ceramics
>>etc).
>>
>>It is my experience that instead of having to choose between the modern
>>mass production methods or traditional artisanal methods, there is real
>>potential in manufacturing on a medium scale in a modern factory using
>>wise and educated people who have manual tools for some jobs and
>>mechanized ones for others. The mechanization does not need to be low
>>quality tooling made from dreadful materials. Good quality tools make
>>good, consistent products. It may be unfair for "a poor workman to
>>blame his tools", but it is quite permissible for a good workman to
>>blame poor tools.
>>
>>Having accepted the general argument in principle, we can look at the
>>things people use in their homes.
>>
>>Is a stove not a tool? Is a pot not a tool? Why are they expensive or
>>fragile? Is it the distribution system? Missing subsidies? Greed?
>>Incompetence? Or, why are some stove prices so low that if the
>>disemmination programme succeeded, it would bankrupt the implementers?
>>What is the true cost of making a stove available, and what is a
>>realistic price? And what do you get for the money? I have every
>>confidence that the members of this list are applying themselves to
>>these questions, but the majority of the globe's designers, marketers
>>and manufacturers are not. And of course the things needed go far
>>beyond stoves. I am suspicious that we are not aiming high enough on
>>the manufacturing ladder. Cell phones with several million parts are
>>bought by rural poor people at market related prices. Is it such a
>>problem to do the same with stoves? Where is the Toyota of stoves?
>>
>>My bottom line is that it seems unfair for a rural poor person to have
>>to pay a higher price for an artisanal stove than a mass produced one
>>because of a 'development' ideology. That is just making the poor
>>poorer.
>>
>>It is equally unfair for a distribution system to burden the price of a
>>mass produced stove because of a consumer ideology. That is just making
>>the rich richer. I read in Dr Karve's comments my own philosophy: that
>>there are optimized scales and modern methods of labour-based production
>>that capitalize on the unique attributes of regions and communities. In
>>all cases, they are almost never the totally manual nor the totally
>>global supply solutions. These alternatives we should seek.
>>
>>Regards
>>Crispin
>>
>>+++++++++++++++
>>
>>
>>Dear stovers,
>>this is an important aspect, which also applies to stoves and biomass
>>based improved fuels. Introduction of machines allows mass production
>>at a much cheaper rate. This destroyed a number of village based
>>enterprises based on cloth, clothing, leather, bread making, sugar
>>making, metal working, etc. Availability of cheap new plastics destroyed
>>another set of rural industries. But in comparison to the last ccentury,
>>the cost of transport as well as the wages in the organised sector have
>>increased. For a product made in a central manufacturing unit to reach
>>the consumer, it must be transported over long distances, stored in a
>>network of warehouses and sold through a network of distributers and
>>sales outlets. All this costs money. Thus in the present situation,
>>although the manufacturing cost is low, the cost of selling is high. A
>>small manufacturer, who operates a business as a family business, uses
>>local raw materials, and deals directly with the end-user, is nowadays
>>well in a position to compete successfully with the organised industry.
>>He also has an added advantage that he is generally not bothered by laws
>>like the minimum wage act, the act dectating the minimum age of the
>>employees, the social service tax, insurance of employees, sales tax,
>>and many other taxes which the organised industry has to pay. In
>>addition, he also does not have unproductive employees like
>>accountants, security guards, telephone operators, tax consultants,
>>legal advisers, etc. Therefore, even if his cost of production is high,
>>his products are often available at a lower cost to the consumer than
>>the mass produced items. This principle applies to our improved
>>cookstoves manufactured by potters, using local clay and sold directly
>>to the users. We are now also trying to introduce, in the same manner,
>>charcoal made from agro-waste as a rural household fuel. The same
>>principle may also apply to locally extracted edible oil, locally made
>>honey, locally made sugar, locally made jams, jellies, pickles etc. But
>>unfortunately, the micro-entrepreneurs manufacturing many of these items
>>are greedy and price their products on par with the branded products,
>>and then lament the fact that the buyers prefered the better known
>>brands to the locally made items. Dr.A.D.Karve, President, Appropriate
>>Rural Technology Institute, Pune, India.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

From rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG Thu Mar 4 16:28:17 2004
From: rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <20040303192227.GA3831@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.232817.0200.RSTANLEY@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>

Harmon/ Peter AD et al. ,

The cassava plant (at least what is not used locally already) works
well as an ingredient in the wet/low pressure briquette making process
we've been flogging on the public: The starch helps to bind up and
densify other more carboniferous material. It does not contribute much
to heat value or aroma through.
Regards,
Richard Stanley

Harmon Seaver wrote:

From cree at DOWCO.COM Thu Mar 4 17:01:18 2004
From: cree at DOWCO.COM (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: Use of agricultural waste dry biomass
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.140118.0800.CREE@DOWCO.COM>

I always read with great interest the emails sent to the list.
The World is looking at using the abundant Biomass for fuel.
If its wet, like Palm Oil Bunches, we can kinetically dry and shred it.
If its large like a Pine Tree logs,we can de-bark it, chip it, and dry it.
With 460 volts power available,we can turn that fibre and sawdust into solid
fuel.
Everything left over can be made into Ethanol and Chemicals.

> John Olsen
> Heatlog Industries Inc
> CANADA
> www.heatloginc.com
>
>

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 4 17:36:12 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
In-Reply-To: <40479F23.7080001@legacyfound.org>
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.163612.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

At 11:26 PM 3/4/04 +0200, richard stanley wrote:
>Dear Tom, AD et al,
(snip)
>Down here in our new home
>outside Johannesburg,

Richard,

We have not heard about your change of location and possible adjustments to
your work. Is this official Legacy Foundation work? Those of us who come
through Johannesburg occasionally would especially like to know.

(If that is too personal, please reply to me off-line.)

Paul

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 4 18:23:44 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:55 2004
Subject: [Stoves] Use of agricultural waste dry biomass was: Re:
[STOVES] Charcoal as cooking fuel
In-Reply-To: <LISTSERV%2004030416383096@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.172344.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Stovers,

About the evident abundance of agricultural wastes that could be fuels if
we got the stoves and fuel-shapes correct:

1. Forests are saved by burning agricultural wastes instead of wood.

2. Agricultural wastes are left to rot or are burned-off (causing
pollution) currently. So if we can burn them CLEANLY and even utilize 50%
or 30% or even 10% of the heat, we are ahead.

3. Therefore, a CLEAN-burning stove that uses agricultural wastes
INeffeciently (throws away large quantities of heat) is better (for society
and the atmosphere) than an equivalently
CLEAN-burning stove that uses wood or wood products even if that wood-using
stove is 100% efficient.

4. If so, then a high-heat, blazing, clean fire from agricultural wastes
burning for hours could be good (better than using scarce wood or charcoal)
even though it sends most of the heat away and channels only a small part
of it to the desired place of cooking, even for a single pot for a small
period of time. Of course it is better to limit the time-duration of the
burn and to not overdo the blaze, but if the fuel is cheap enough (free in
the fields, or anything cheaper than wood), then this "waste of heat" could
be justified.

5. We need some "waste heat" to keep the chimney gases hot and moving,
giving us the draft that we need for some stoves.

6. CONCLUSION: If we could either a) get the agricultural wastes into
usable formats (cheap briquettes, etc.) for use in existing stoves, or b)
design stoves (such as the small gasifiers) to run hot with agricultural
waste, (or some combination of a and b) then---
---- we would NOT need to spend so much of our stove-improvement
efforts on the wood-based stoves.

7. Corollary: Designers of stoves that will burn agricultural wastes can
allow substantial loss of heat if that is what is necessary to make those
stoves functional.

[The above was written by a believer in the future of the various gasifier
stoves that will be able to utilize dry agricultural waste. I guess that
is one reason why I have been so interested in the issue of fuels: because
my gasifier stoves do not function as well on sticks and small logs as they
do on small "chunks" of biomass.]

Paul

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 4 18:54:19 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: "Stoves" messages reach to where?
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.175419.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

To Ron Larson and Tom Miles (and others),

Our "Stoves list serve" includes 234 subscribers. Many are bunched in
North America.

But do we even reach the far corners, especially in Asia (especially in
SouthEast Asia and China)? How many are in South America, etc., etc.

Grant with HEDON has valuable contacts for sending some messages onward
beyond the list serve members. But is anyone on the list serve from ProBEC
(Germany-sponsored for biomass energy cookstoves in Africa), or for some
other areas?

We hear so little from them. And they are not on ETHOS, either. ETHOS has
talked about getting more international "members" and providing better
links. I hope that happens.

I assume that subscribers can be "lurkers" who read but do not comment. No
problem with that; we are glad that you are reading the messages. Also,
not everyone reads the "Stoves" messages, so even if there is a subscriber
in XYZ country, it does not mean that the messages reach even that one
person in that country or organization.

I also assume that the list of subscribers is not confidential. I do NOT
want the e-mail addresses because we can all reach each other via the
list-serve, and many addresses do not say anything about who is the
recipient of the messages. But I would be interested to know who are
getting the messages and what geographic and other
"interests"/organizations are covered.

Can the managers of the Stoves List Serve provide some information about
the subscribers?

Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From snkm at BTL.NET Thu Mar 4 19:54:03 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <THU.4.MAR.2004.185403.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 06:30 AM 3/4/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
>Tapioca (Manihot esculentus) is the same as cassava but it has nothing to do
>with Yucca. Tapioca is a dicot plant beconging to the family Euphorbiaceae,
>whereas Yucca is a monocot, belonging to the Familie Amarillidaceae. Ron
>also mentioned a false banana.

Latin Central America calls the Cassava plant "Yucca" -- probably a slang
term??

>There is also a weed called nutgrass (Cyperus rotundus), that has
underground
>tubers. The tubers are valued in India because they contain a perfume.

That is also a common weed here in Belize -- and farmers try everything to
kill it off. Mostly to no avail!!

It would be extremely labor intensive to harvest these small tubers -- as
they go quite deep.

I'd better look up "Cyperus rotundus" -- there just might be another name
confusion issue at hand here.

Our nutgrass -- also called knotgrass -- has multiple small tubers -- about
2 to 3 cm in rough diameter -- that go from 8 to 20 cm under the ground --
usually.

Peter Singfield -- Belize

From krishnakumar_07 at YAHOO.CO.UK Fri Mar 5 01:17:51 2004
From: krishnakumar_07 at YAHOO.CO.UK (=?iso-8859-1?q?krishna=20kumar?=)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: NDG
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.061751.0000.KRISHNAKUMAR07@YAHOO.CO.UK>

Hello,
Can any one help me in finding the overall
losses of wood stoves.

=====
krish

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends today! Download Messenger Now
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Fri Mar 5 01:17:28 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.081728.0200.>

Dear Stovers and Business Promoters

Following on from the many contributors to this important discussion, I
again pick up a sentence from Dr Karve (with whom I agree wholeheartedly
on this topic) written in his message of 29 February:

"A small manufacturer, who operates a business as a family business,
uses local raw materials, and deals directly with the end-user, is
nowadays well in a position to compete successfully with the organised
industry. "

While I quibble with the use of the description 'organized' to mean
'large and formal' industry, the description of a vertically integrated
production and marketing system is accurate. Small industries are also
quite well organized, but I am not pushing that point.

My point today is about the 'local raw materials'. I observe that all
manufacturers use raw materials which might be 'local' in the sense that
they are are available from a nearby supplier (farmer or shop).
Something grown nearby is local, but as far as the industry is
concerned, metal sold next door is also 'local'.

When planning to expand the production of metal stoves from, say,
Swaziland to Ethiopia, one of the inputs is metal sheeting. A stove
promoter might ask if there is plenty of sheet metal available in
Ethiopia. The answer would be, "Yes, sheet metal is locally available."

No one pretends that the metal is produced in the country but it would
be incorrect to take a position that unless the metal was made inside
Ethiopia, or inside Addis Ababa, or inside the Rwanda section of town,
the stove project would not go ahead because the materials were not
'local'. They are locally available and there usually is no concern by
the producer about where it comes from.

With devices known or classed as 'appropriate technology' there is
always an emphasis on their being 'locally produced' however this is an
incomplete sentence, most of the time. It is actually taken to mean
'locally available inputs' not literally locally produced in all
aspects: iron from a local source smelted and rolled into sheets and
electrically coated with locally mined zinc; local wire drawn and formed
into nails and so on. There is no need to elaborate.

If you accept that 'raw materials' might be traded over a wide area and
in different stages of finish, then I have made the point.

Next, how do we define a 'raw material'? One man's finished good is
another man's raw material. This is not an abstract point. Why should
a stove maker always start with plain sheets of metal? Are we forcing
him to be vertically integrated because of an commitment to an ideology?
Of course not. We want to maximize his income by having as many of the
manufacturing and marketing functions as possible under his control and
to have them contribute to his income. In fact we really mean 'under
his hand' because if he hires someone, then technically speak production
isn't vertically integrated any longer. The employee is really a
subcontractor working with facilities provided by the employer so there
is actually stratification of the production.

In the modern economic paradign with its CNC capabilities and the
remarkably low cost of shipping containers of parts around the planet,
there is a new world of artisanal manufacturing opportunities. If we
Stovers widen the understanding of what a raw material is, we can have
artisanal production of quite high complexity.

An example of this is manufacturing radios. There is a man in Mbabane
who makes solar powered radios and sells them at the local vegetable
market. He is certainly an artisanal producer, but we don't seriously
expect him to make solar cells and HF receiver circuit boards, or vinyl
sheet or fibreboard or rivets or solder. It is the widespread
availability of components and sub-assemblies that allows this 'artisan'
to manufacture profitably at a low volume what are essentially custom
made solar powered radios that sell for less than $50.

Just because we promote stoves does not mean that we have to make the
whole thing 'locally'. Stoves use inputs that are from somewhere else.
As there is only one planetary economy so someone somewhere benefits
when we buy something. If stoves were built out of parts some of which
were finished, some semi-finished and some made from locally available
raw materials (as described above) we would find that a high quality
product that satisfies the customers is available on the market with
more 'local content' than a fully imported model. It might even be a
superior product with advantages not available from the import such as
being tuned to the local fuel quality.

What I am advocating is an omnivorous approach to stove dissemination.
Our expansion models should allow for all combinations of distribution
of stoves, parts, materials and training.

There is a remarkable facet of the economy becoming more evident each
year. I think I am able to ship to Ethiopia finished stove parts, mass
produced in Johannesburg, that will land in Addis Ababa at the same
price as the raw material the artisan would othewise have to purchase
and start with. A modern manufacturing facility producing stove
components does not have to fabricate and transport whole stoves It
could operate profitably making stove parts which could be sold as
compact kits for efficient distribution and local assembly.

An artisan ccould choose whether to make parts from sheets or buy the
finished parts from a shop. If a finished part such as a hinge or a
padlock, or a sheet metal screw is as cheap or cheaper than making one
himself, he normally takes the most economically efficient path and buys
it. We would not claim it was a mistake to do so.

The best opportunities for formal and informal sector stove
co-production are emerging from this paradigm.

Regards
Crispin

From elk at WANANCHI.COM Fri Mar 5 00:07:35 2004
From: elk at WANANCHI.COM (Elsen Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Use of agricultural waste dry biomass
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.080735.0300.ELK@WANANCHI.COM>

Though exact figures are unavailable, it's probable that East Africa's
entire charcoal demand of some 2.5 million tons per year could be provided
for by manufacturing charcoal briquettes from agricultural wastes . A few
that we've worked with are:

bagasse
sugarcane field trash
sawdust & off-cuts
coconut husk & shell
coffee husk
rice husk
maize wastes
nut shells
extracted wattle bark
sisal waste
pineapple juicing pulp
horticultural & floricultural wastes

The list goes on & on. It seems that there's piles of discarded biomass
around every other corner once you start looking, and there's certainly no
need to pump clouds of noxious smoke into the air- both the Karves and our
carbonisation techniques flare volatiles & are essentially clean-burning as
well as surprisingly conversion-efficient.

The (primarily urban) demand for charcoal in developing countries remains &
is unlikely to disappear. Governments are unable and unwilling to legislate
the fuel out of existence. It's characteristics and popularity have firmly
entrenched it in society. Developing functional and cost-competitive
substitutes is no doubt an important method to fight the environmental
degradation that is attributable to the unsustainable aspect of charcoal in
many regions of the world.

The big challenge lies in scaling up to the point where one is making an
impression in the industry & environment &, of course, doing it in a
commercially profitable/sustainable/replicable manner.

We're working on it continuously & seeing daily progress here- almost there!

elk
--------------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk@wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi, Kenya

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 12:44 AM
Subject: [STOVES] Use of agricultural waste dry biomass was: Re: [STOVES]
Charcoal as cooking fuel

> AD, Tom and all,
>
> Using AD's numbers (below), we would not need to make charcoal for India's
> usage IF the 80% (waste heat) of the biomass could be utilized the first
> time around, that is, in the kitchen instead of in the kiln.
>
> We would need 28 millions tons of USABLE dry biomass (out of the total 500
> million tons available each year). That is just more than 5% of the total
> tons available.
>
> Granted that cane leaves in the fields present transportation and storage
> problems. But can we not find other dry biomass that is easier to
> transport and store. This could include making briquettes or large
> pellets, perhaps held together with a binder of some of the massive starch
> content that has been mentioned recently about
> cassava/manioc/yucca/whatever-has-starch.
>
> This is ASSUMING that a suitable stove can be available. As far as
> gasifiers are concerned, I am confident that soon (within 6 months??) some
> results about small gasifiers (for residential and micro-industry) will be
> available. The issues about what fuels will work well in which models of
> gasifiers becomes important. But please remember that EVERY stove has
> preferences for fuels (plural, but not many) . In most current stoves,
> WOOD is favored (unfortunately for the forests) by many stoves and the
> charcoal makers.
>
> THEN, when gasifiers or other new stoves are proven, the question of fuels
> will become even more important because it takes effort to make wood
chunks
> (small like 1 cm dimensions, but not shreds), but maybe it takes less work
> to make briquettes and pellets (or to chop soft rootfuels before they
> become hard).
>
> So, back to the start of the question, of the 500 million tons of
> agricultural waste, how much is in what formats (dry leaves, dry husks,
> discarded "seeds" such as cahune or mango, or low-energy stalks, bagasse
> from cane stalks, etc.) I consider all of these to be potential fuels for
> the gasifiers. And for other stoves also if processed into stove-usable,
> transportable, storable formats.
>
> I really really like the Karve's kilns (to the point that I helped
organize
> some of the early funding just prior to the Ashden recognition and
> award). Great for the places that need the charcoal, such as in major
> urban areas. But the other millions and millions of tons of agricultural
> waste dry biomass are just waiting to be useful in improved stoves.
>
> Paul
>
> At 09:48 PM 3/4/04 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> >Dear Tom,
> >India produces about 500 million tonnes of agricultural waste every year.
> >India has about 140 million families living in villages, who are
currently
> >using wood, dung cakes, corn cobs, stalks of cotton, etc. as domestic
fuel.
> >A family would need annually about 200 kg of charcoal to cook its food.
> >Therefore, the total amount of charcoal needed by the Indian rural
> >population calculates to about 28 million tonnes per annum. With 20% rate
of
> >conversion of biomass into charcoal, one would need only about 140
million
> >tonnes of biomass. When charcoal is made by using the oven-and-retort
> >process, as we are doing in our own programme, the volatiles are burned
in
> >the kiln itself and not released into the atmosphere.
> >Yours
> >A.D.Karve
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: TBReed <tombreed@COMCAST.NET>
> >To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> >Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:13 PM
> >Subject: Re: [STOVES] [ethos] Re: Rocket Stove in Ghana
> >
> >
> > > Dear Bryan and all:
> > >
> > > Cooking with charcoal can be simpler and cleaner than cooking with
wood
> >(not
> > > woodgas!).
> > >
> > > However, making the charcoal usually involves wasting 80% of the
energy in
> > > the wood (sugar cane trash, rice hulls etc.) AND putting most of the
> > > volatiles into the air for the rest of us to breathe, thereby
> >externalizing
> > > their health problems.
> > >
> > > At the beginning of WWII there were many charcoal gasifiers, operating
the
> > > cars and trucks. There wouldn't have been any forests left in Europe
by
> > > 1945 if they hadn't switched to woodgas. So I hope we won't look on
> > > charcoal as a long term solution to cooking problems.
> > >
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Fri Mar 5 03:29:27 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040304134935.023e45d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.022927.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 01:56:15PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
> AD and Gene and Stovers,
>
> The bananas and the trees are not annual crops, so getting the rootfuels
> would be detrimental to the main purpose of growing the bananas and trees.
>
> But are tapioca and Psophocarpus tetragonolobus annuals (or short cycle
> plants) where root harvest could be conducted?
>
> So far, the list with above and below ground products is quite short, with
> buffalo gourd as the leading contender!! Is buffalo gourd fruit/vegetable
> available anywhere? what are its uses?

Cattail has both above and below ground crop. Traditionally, many native
americans used the root for food, also the young shoots, which are quite tasty,
and the seedhead, when green is also very edible. The mature seeds can be
pressed for oil. The full grown tops are/were used for weaving mats and baskets,
and the mature seedhead used for insulation.
In terms of fuel use, the research done in Minnesota determined that in
their short growing season, the yield from tops or roots was about the same, 28
dry tons @ acre, but you only got one or the other. That is, if you harvested
for maximum yield of tops for biomass fuel, it would cut the yield of rootstock
significantly, and if you wanted maximum of roots, then you had to forgo the
tops, or most of them, since you'd be harvesting the roots in October and tops
would be quite withered by then. In a longer growing season, as in India, yeilds
of both should be greatly improved. I think I recall something in the research
about a projected 3 crops per year in Florida.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From snkm at BTL.NET Fri Mar 5 08:29:28 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.072928.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

Dear Harmon;

It might be of interest to note that Belize has huge stands of Cattail. So
the plant has an excellent "natural" range and can survive well in the
tropics.

Peter / Belize

At 02:29 AM 3/5/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 01:56:15PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
>> AD and Gene and Stovers,
>>
>> The bananas and the trees are not annual crops, so getting the rootfuels
>> would be detrimental to the main purpose of growing the bananas and trees.
>>
>> But are tapioca and Psophocarpus tetragonolobus annuals (or short cycle
>> plants) where root harvest could be conducted?
>>
>> So far, the list with above and below ground products is quite short, with
>> buffalo gourd as the leading contender!! Is buffalo gourd fruit/vegetable
>> available anywhere? what are its uses?
>
>
> Cattail has both above and below ground crop. Traditionally, many native
>americans used the root for food, also the young shoots, which are quite
tasty,
>and the seedhead, when green is also very edible. The mature seeds can be
>pressed for oil. The full grown tops are/were used for weaving mats and
baskets,
>and the mature seedhead used for insulation.
> In terms of fuel use, the research done in Minnesota determined that in
>their short growing season, the yield from tops or roots was about the
same, 28
>dry tons @ acre, but you only got one or the other. That is, if you harvested
>for maximum yield of tops for biomass fuel, it would cut the yield of
rootstock
>significantly, and if you wanted maximum of roots, then you had to forgo the
>tops, or most of them, since you'd be harvesting the roots in October and
tops
>would be quite withered by then. In a longer growing season, as in India,
yeilds
>of both should be greatly improved. I think I recall something in the
research
>about a projected 3 crops per year in Florida.
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>

From gordonse at ONE.NET Fri Mar 5 08:42:58 2004
From: gordonse at ONE.NET (Sharon Gordon)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.084258.0500.GORDONSE@ONE.NET>

> Any other above ground crops that produce footfuels?
>
***I have seen a report of a study that used the dried roots of squash
plants as fuel. It was used as you would sticks/twigs of wood.

Sharon
gordonse@one.net

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Fri Mar 5 09:15:10 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Use of agricultural waste dry biomass
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.071510.0700.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear EK, ADK and All:

"It's amazing how much you can do if you don't care who gets the credit"
(Anon).

What a tremendous joint effort this Stove list (and other lists) is. There
has certainly never been the ability for the worldwide population to solve
worldwide problems before the WWW. And what generous sharing of information
we find here. We are making astounding progress toward the clean, efficient
and appropriate use of biomass.

Keep it up and don't hold back ideas for private profit. The need is great
enough so that any one success helps all others in making biomass practical.

Yours truly,

TOM REED BEF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elsen Karstad" <elk@WANANCHI.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Use of agricultural waste dry biomass

> Though exact figures are unavailable, it's probable that East Africa's
> entire charcoal demand of some 2.5 million tons per year could be provided
> for by manufacturing charcoal briquettes from agricultural wastes . A few
> that we've worked with are:
>
> bagasse
> sugarcane field trash
> sawdust & off-cuts
> coconut husk & shell
> coffee husk
> rice husk
> maize wastes
> nut shells
> extracted wattle bark
> sisal waste
> pineapple juicing pulp
> horticultural & floricultural wastes
>
> The list goes on & on. It seems that there's piles of discarded biomass
> around every other corner once you start looking, and there's certainly no
> need to pump clouds of noxious smoke into the air- both the Karves and our
> carbonisation techniques flare volatiles & are essentially clean-burning
as
> well as surprisingly conversion-efficient.
>
> The (primarily urban) demand for charcoal in developing countries remains
&
> is unlikely to disappear. Governments are unable and unwilling to
legislate
> the fuel out of existence. It's characteristics and popularity have firmly
> entrenched it in society. Developing functional and cost-competitive
> substitutes is no doubt an important method to fight the environmental
> degradation that is attributable to the unsustainable aspect of charcoal
in
> many regions of the world.
>
> The big challenge lies in scaling up to the point where one is making an
> impression in the industry & environment &, of course, doing it in a
> commercially profitable/sustainable/replicable manner.
>
> We're working on it continuously & seeing daily progress here- almost
there!
>
> elk
> --------------------------------
> Elsen L. Karstad
> elk@wananchi.com
> www.chardust.com
> Nairobi, Kenya
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 12:44 AM
> Subject: [STOVES] Use of agricultural waste dry biomass was: Re: [STOVES]
> Charcoal as cooking fuel
>
>
> > AD, Tom and all,
> >
> > Using AD's numbers (below), we would not need to make charcoal for
India's
> > usage IF the 80% (waste heat) of the biomass could be utilized the first
> > time around, that is, in the kitchen instead of in the kiln.
> >
> > We would need 28 millions tons of USABLE dry biomass (out of the total
500
> > million tons available each year). That is just more than 5% of the
total
> > tons available.
> >
> > Granted that cane leaves in the fields present transportation and
storage
> > problems. But can we not find other dry biomass that is easier to
> > transport and store. This could include making briquettes or large
> > pellets, perhaps held together with a binder of some of the massive
starch
> > content that has been mentioned recently about
> > cassava/manioc/yucca/whatever-has-starch.
> >
> > This is ASSUMING that a suitable stove can be available. As far as
> > gasifiers are concerned, I am confident that soon (within 6 months??)
some
> > results about small gasifiers (for residential and micro-industry) will
be
> > available. The issues about what fuels will work well in which models
of
> > gasifiers becomes important. But please remember that EVERY stove has
> > preferences for fuels (plural, but not many) . In most current stoves,
> > WOOD is favored (unfortunately for the forests) by many stoves and the
> > charcoal makers.
> >
> > THEN, when gasifiers or other new stoves are proven, the question of
fuels
> > will become even more important because it takes effort to make wood
> chunks
> > (small like 1 cm dimensions, but not shreds), but maybe it takes less
work
> > to make briquettes and pellets (or to chop soft rootfuels before they
> > become hard).
> >
> > So, back to the start of the question, of the 500 million tons of
> > agricultural waste, how much is in what formats (dry leaves, dry husks,
> > discarded "seeds" such as cahune or mango, or low-energy stalks, bagasse
> > from cane stalks, etc.) I consider all of these to be potential fuels
for
> > the gasifiers. And for other stoves also if processed into
stove-usable,
> > transportable, storable formats.
> >
> > I really really like the Karve's kilns (to the point that I helped
> organize
> > some of the early funding just prior to the Ashden recognition and
> > award). Great for the places that need the charcoal, such as in major
> > urban areas. But the other millions and millions of tons of
agricultural
> > waste dry biomass are just waiting to be useful in improved stoves.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > At 09:48 PM 3/4/04 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> > >Dear Tom,
> > >India produces about 500 million tonnes of agricultural waste every
year.
> > >India has about 140 million families living in villages, who are
> currently
> > >using wood, dung cakes, corn cobs, stalks of cotton, etc. as domestic
> fuel.
> > >A family would need annually about 200 kg of charcoal to cook its food.
> > >Therefore, the total amount of charcoal needed by the Indian rural
> > >population calculates to about 28 million tonnes per annum. With 20%
rate
> of
> > >conversion of biomass into charcoal, one would need only about 140
> million
> > >tonnes of biomass. When charcoal is made by using the oven-and-retort
> > >process, as we are doing in our own programme, the volatiles are burned
> in
> > >the kiln itself and not released into the atmosphere.
> > >Yours
> > >A.D.Karve
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: TBReed <tombreed@COMCAST.NET>
> > >To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > >Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:13 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [STOVES] [ethos] Re: Rocket Stove in Ghana
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear Bryan and all:
> > > >
> > > > Cooking with charcoal can be simpler and cleaner than cooking with
> wood
> > >(not
> > > > woodgas!).
> > > >
> > > > However, making the charcoal usually involves wasting 80% of the
> energy in
> > > > the wood (sugar cane trash, rice hulls etc.) AND putting most of the
> > > > volatiles into the air for the rest of us to breathe, thereby
> > >externalizing
> > > > their health problems.
> > > >
> > > > At the beginning of WWII there were many charcoal gasifiers,
operating
> the
> > > > cars and trucks. There wouldn't have been any forests left in
Europe
> by
> > > > 1945 if they hadn't switched to woodgas. So I hope we won't look on
> > > > charcoal as a long term solution to cooking problems.
> > > >
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> >
> >

From a31ford at INETLINK.CA Fri Mar 5 09:14:35 2004
From: a31ford at INETLINK.CA (a31ford)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Use of agricultural waste dry biomass
In-Reply-To: <BLEFLNMHNDFEMMIJPGFIMEMOCCAA.cree@dowco.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.081435.0600.A31FORD@INETLINK.CA>

Tom, AD, Crispin, and All

This is the company I saw a report on, about 2 or 3 years ago, in a business
magazine.

I couldn't remember the company name, but knew that they where located
somewhere in Canada.

NOW that I see the website photos of the product they produce, It all came
back to me..

HERE is the machine that produces sawdust logs with the hole down the
middle, I KNEW there was one.... :)

Now if I can only remember who is testing stoves with logs that have holes
in them!

Regards as always,

Greg Manning,
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From: The Stoves Discussion List [mailto:STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG]On
Behalf Of John Olsen
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 4:01 PM
To: STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: [STOVES] Use of agricultural waste dry biomass

> John Olsen
> Heatlog Industries Inc
> CANADA
> www.heatloginc.com
>
>

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Fri Mar 5 09:24:02 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin /Posix)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Biomass vs "LPG" fuel
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.162402.0200.CRISPIN@NEWDAWN.SZ>

Dear Kevin C

On July 08 2003 you wrote:

> One of the major advantages of biomass fuel is that it can be
> indigenously sourced. One of the major disadvantages of
> biomass fuel is its inconsistency. I feel it is totally impossible
> to design a "universal biomass stove" if for no other reason
> that biomass fuels are universally inconsistent. If someone
> could design a LPG stove that could burn Bunker C and Point
> Aconi Coal (6% S and 10% ash), then there might be some hope.

Well, I haven't gotten into the liquid fuel stoves (yet) but I have managed
to build a 'universal' biomass stove that does a pretty good job of burning
the following:

Mangololo (Ironwood)
Mvangati (a heavy Acacia)
Hluziyana (light hardwood)
Black Wattle
Meranti
Eucalyptus (Blue Gum)
Pine
Milled newspaper briquettes
Sawdust briquettes
Coconut husks
Biomass briquettes (nondescript vegetation)
Sawdust+newspaper briquettes
Heatlogs (high density sawdust)
Charcoal
Sawdust+Charcoal+Newspaper Briquettes
Maize Cobs

When the stove it heated up it burns all these without visible smoke, or
nearly none, and with emissions clean enough that I can stand over the fire,
open my eyes in the flue gases and stare for a while at the fire while
breathing in and out. While I don't recommend this to anyone else, it is a
quick measure of how clean a fire is burning. Actually, I did induce Dr
Karve to take off his glasses and try this while cleanly burning damp pine
branches in Kirkland. If the output gases don't make you cough right away
and don't sting your eyes, it is a lot better than the fires many people are
using.

My conclusion is that one can burn just about any fuel cleanly if there is a
chimney, but that with a natural draft stove preheating the air is a basic
requirement for handling many biomass fuels.

Regards
Crispin

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Fri Mar 5 10:24:15 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.112415.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Peter and Harmon

The Cat Tail we have here grows in boggy areas, and has a root system that
extends 3/4 of the way to hell.

Is there any easy and practical way to harvest cat tail roots?

Would you know if cat tail roots develop to a good size in the first year,
or if it takes 2 or more years to develop to harvestable size? With such a
relatively small leaf system, it is hard to visualize them as being fast
growing.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@BTL.NET>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Rootfuels

> Dear Harmon;
>
> It might be of interest to note that Belize has huge stands of Cattail. So
> the plant has an excellent "natural" range and can survive well in the
> tropics.
>
> Peter / Belize
>
> At 02:29 AM 3/5/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 01:56:15PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
> >> AD and Gene and Stovers,
> >>
> >> The bananas and the trees are not annual crops, so getting the
rootfuels
> >> would be detrimental to the main purpose of growing the bananas and
trees.
> >>
> >> But are tapioca and Psophocarpus tetragonolobus annuals (or short cycle
> >> plants) where root harvest could be conducted?
> >>
> >> So far, the list with above and below ground products is quite short,
with
> >> buffalo gourd as the leading contender!! Is buffalo gourd
fruit/vegetable
> >> available anywhere? what are its uses?
> >
> >
> > Cattail has both above and below ground crop. Traditionally, many
native
> >americans used the root for food, also the young shoots, which are quite
> tasty,
> >and the seedhead, when green is also very edible. The mature seeds can be
> >pressed for oil. The full grown tops are/were used for weaving mats and
> baskets,
> >and the mature seedhead used for insulation.
> > In terms of fuel use, the research done in Minnesota determined that
in
> >their short growing season, the yield from tops or roots was about the
> same, 28
> >dry tons @ acre, but you only got one or the other. That is, if you
harvested
> >for maximum yield of tops for biomass fuel, it would cut the yield of
> rootstock
> >significantly, and if you wanted maximum of roots, then you had to forgo
the
> >tops, or most of them, since you'd be harvesting the roots in October and
> tops
> >would be quite withered by then. In a longer growing season, as in India,
> yeilds
> >of both should be greatly improved. I think I recall something in the
> research
> >about a projected 3 crops per year in Florida.
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver
> >CyberShamanix
> >http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Fri Mar 5 10:55:03 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Biomass vs "LPG" fuel
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.115503.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Crispin

Wow!! What you are claiming does indeed represent an enormous achievement!!
However, while I still find this hard to believe, there is a famous saying:
"Reality trumps beliefs." :-) (Kevin Chisholm, 5 March 2004)

There is an enormous range of biomass fuels ranging from wet bagasse to kiln
dried sander dust. Nobody expects one stove to handle such a range of fuels.

Could you please describe the conditions of various fuels that give
acceptable results in your specific stove system?

1: Your name for the stove
2: Generalized description of it
3: Basic capability of the stove
4: Permissible conditions for each fuel to allow the stove to attain the
basic stove capabilities.

For each fuel, please indicate:
1: Permissible size range
and
2: Permissible moisture content.

Such a "COMBINED Performance and Fuel Specification" could be a great way to
enable comparison of various stoves.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin /Posix" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Biomass vs "LPG" fuel

> Dear Kevin C
>
> On July 08 2003 you wrote:
>
> > One of the major advantages of biomass fuel is that it can be
> > indigenously sourced. One of the major disadvantages of
> > biomass fuel is its inconsistency. I feel it is totally impossible
> > to design a "universal biomass stove" if for no other reason
> > that biomass fuels are universally inconsistent. If someone
> > could design a LPG stove that could burn Bunker C and Point
> > Aconi Coal (6% S and 10% ash), then there might be some hope.
>
> Well, I haven't gotten into the liquid fuel stoves (yet) but I have
managed
> to build a 'universal' biomass stove that does a pretty good job of
burning
> the following:
>
> Mangololo (Ironwood)
> Mvangati (a heavy Acacia)
> Hluziyana (light hardwood)
> Black Wattle
> Meranti
> Eucalyptus (Blue Gum)
> Pine
> Milled newspaper briquettes
> Sawdust briquettes
> Coconut husks
> Biomass briquettes (nondescript vegetation)
> Sawdust+newspaper briquettes
> Heatlogs (high density sawdust)
> Charcoal
> Sawdust+Charcoal+Newspaper Briquettes
> Maize Cobs
>
> When the stove it heated up it burns all these without visible smoke, or
> nearly none, and with emissions clean enough that I can stand over the
fire,
> open my eyes in the flue gases and stare for a while at the fire while
> breathing in and out. While I don't recommend this to anyone else, it is
a
> quick measure of how clean a fire is burning. Actually, I did induce Dr
> Karve to take off his glasses and try this while cleanly burning damp pine
> branches in Kirkland. If the output gases don't make you cough right away
> and don't sting your eyes, it is a lot better than the fires many people
are
> using.
>
> My conclusion is that one can burn just about any fuel cleanly if there is
a
> chimney, but that with a natural draft stove preheating the air is a basic
> requirement for handling many biomass fuels.
>
> Regards
> Crispin

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Fri Mar 5 12:28:36 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <005101c402c6$d998b3a0$1c9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.112836.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 11:24:15AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> Dear Peter and Harmon
>
> The Cat Tail we have here grows in boggy areas, and has a root system that
> extends 3/4 of the way to hell.
>
> Is there any easy and practical way to harvest cat tail roots?

Large scale harvesting has been done by draining the marsh and then using
modified potato digger machines. Also by digging out the roots (and soil) with a
bulldozer or backhoe (and the backhoe or dredge can be used from a barge without
draining the marsh), and then washing the soil off the roots.
If I could find the grant money, I'd build a water-blaster dredge on a barge
that "digs" in the marsh by water pressure, then sucks the loose roots up and
onto the barge, washing most of the soil off in the process. Here's a company
that makes aquatic weed harvesting equipment that could probably be adapted:

http://www.trashskimmer.com/weedcat.htm

>
> Would you know if cat tail roots develop to a good size in the first year,
> or if it takes 2 or more years to develop to harvestable size? With such a
> relatively small leaf system, it is hard to visualize them as being fast
> growing.

In the experiments done by the Univ. of MN, they got 28 dried tons per acre
per year. They are very fast growing. In fact, in the US, cattails, while
native, are considered an invasive weed, and outgrow most other aquatic
species.
Another fast grower with both above and below ground crops is Phragmites
australis, or Giant Reed. The tops are an excellent biomass crop, and used
around the world for building thatched roofs and walls, also for boats. Native
americans ate the roots, as do muskrats, although I don't know of any research
into starch yields.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Fri Mar 5 12:36:55 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <005101c402c6$d998b3a0$1c9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.113655.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

If forgot to also say that in the sense that the roots are to be used by
individuals for either food or in a small digester, hand digging is entirely
suitable. That's how the indigs did it, also how the muskrats do it. And of
course, even in commercial harvest, you don't want to remove every last scrap of
root, since the plant sprouts again from even small sections of root. Harvesting
in strips was decided upon in MN as the best method, leaving alternating strips
growing to propagate into the harvested area by adjoining roots.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Fri Mar 5 13:46:18 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.144618.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Harmon
> >
> > The Cat Tail we have here grows in boggy areas, and has a root system
that
> > extends 3/4 of the way to hell.
> >
> > Is there any easy and practical way to harvest cat tail roots?
>
> Large scale harvesting has been done by draining the marsh and then
using
> modified potato digger machines. Also by digging out the roots (and soil)
with a
> bulldozer or backhoe (and the backhoe or dredge can be used from a barge
without
> draining the marsh), and then washing the soil off the roots.

I would suggest that "the market" that is interested in root fuels does not
have the capital resources to harvest such root fuels in a sophisticated or
capital intensive manner.

Imagine if you and I were camping for a week and ran out of food or fuel,
and that we had only simple tools... axe, shovel, machette, garden fork,
grub hoe, etc. How could we harvest the little darlings?

Is there perhaps a simple tool that could be made up that would allow one
person to walk to the root area, and harvest a reasonable amount per day,
with reasonable effort?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

> If I could find the grant money, I'd build a water-blaster dredge on a
barge
> that "digs" in the marsh by water pressure, then sucks the loose roots up
and
> onto the barge, washing most of the soil off in the process. Here's a
company
> that makes aquatic weed harvesting equipment that could probably be
adapted:
>
> http://www.trashskimmer.com/weedcat.htm
>
>
> >
> > Would you know if cat tail roots develop to a good size in the first
year,
> > or if it takes 2 or more years to develop to harvestable size? With such
a
> > relatively small leaf system, it is hard to visualize them as being fast
> > growing.
>
> In the experiments done by the Univ. of MN, they got 28 dried tons per
acre
> per year. They are very fast growing. In fact, in the US, cattails, while
> native, are considered an invasive weed, and outgrow most other aquatic
> species.
> Another fast grower with both above and below ground crops is
Phragmites
> australis, or Giant Reed. The tops are an excellent biomass crop, and used
> around the world for building thatched roofs and walls, also for boats.
Native
> americans ate the roots, as do muskrats, although I don't know of any
research
> into starch yields.
>
>

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Fri Mar 5 13:55:54 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <00a501c402e2$28027290$1c9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.125554.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:46:18PM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>
> I would suggest that "the market" that is interested in root fuels does not
> have the capital resources to harvest such root fuels in a sophisticated or
> capital intensive manner.

Oh hardly -- the harvesting of cattails for ethanol production just in the US
has far greater potential than all the corn now grown for ethanol. Especially
since in the US millions of tax dollars are now being spent for cattail
remediation, or eradication. Within 50 miles of my home are two huge ongoing
cattail eradication efforts involving many thousands of acres, which they are
mostly trying to do by draining and either bulldozing or burning. Very, very
stupid.

>
> Imagine if you and I were camping for a week and ran out of food or fuel,
> and that we had only simple tools... axe, shovel, machette, garden fork,
> grub hoe, etc. How could we harvest the little darlings?
>
How about your hands, the way the indigs did it. Or simple rakes. The
"soil" is just loose muck. In fact, you'll find a lot of cattails are growing in
floating mats, not even attached to the bottom at all. People use a rake made
from a pitchfork with the tines bent for harvesting a lot of aquatic crops, like
cattail roots, duck potatoes, reed, etc.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From snkm at BTL.NET Fri Mar 5 13:54:03 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.125403.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 11:36 AM 3/5/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 11:24:15AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>> Dear Peter and Harmon
>>
>> The Cat Tail we have here grows in boggy areas, and has a root system that
>> extends 3/4 of the way to hell.
>>
>> Is there any easy and practical way to harvest cat tail roots?
>
> If forgot to also say that in the sense that the roots are to be used by
>individuals for either food or in a small digester, hand digging is entirely
>suitable. That's how the indigs did it, also how the muskrats do it. And of
>course, even in commercial harvest, you don't want to remove every last
scrap of
>root, since the plant sprouts again from even small sections of root.
Harvesting
>in strips was decided upon in MN as the best method, leaving alternating
strips
>growing to propagate into the harvested area by adjoining roots.
>
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver

I harvested a lot of Calamus (Sweet Flag) root in my time -- which is just
like Cat Tail.

I also noted you mentioned harvesting in October. That is correct. Harvest
is just after the freeze sets in and just after the thaw starts -- in
Canada -- that was like April.

So let me warn some of you!!

You need good hip waders -- and a very strong constitution -- to hand
harvest these roots in 32 F water/mud??

Calamus is the universe's absolutely best "stomachic" and if that secret
ever got out the FDA approved -- 1 trillion dollars per year -- anti-acid
industry would go broke in a week!

Good thing moderns are so well programmed to accept only what they are told
to take -- eh??

I can see the whole complex of industrialized nations going to deep
economic collapse if people ever found out Calamus is the absolutely best
medicine for heart burn -- stimulating sex drive -- and many other
"properties".

The version growing to the North can't even "seed" as it originally came
with the British soldiers that defeated the French -- "gaining" Canada in
the late 1700's.

The British military served such terrible fare for food that the India vets
soon learned to carry Calamus everywhere. Some soldiers planted Calamus
around my area of Quebec -- and the plant ended up thriving -- but
propagating only by root.

Early settlers soon learned of it's values and the root was set in every
colonized area's wet spots -- often displacing Cattail.

This northern version of the plant is far more medicinally potent than the
India original it derived from.

Organized medicine and the FDA condemned Calamus as a cancer precursor
(Carcinogenic) about 50 years or so ago -- a total fabrication that all the
"sheeple" believe in so well to this day.

Ergo -- the anti-acid industry is worth one trillion per year now!!

They also sold the same load of goods on people in regards to coconut oil
being bad for heart -- causing heart disease -- and only modern process --
hydrogeneated oils -- are healthy. Today we have orders higher heart
disease simply because the body required ancestrial diet "lipids" to resist
arteriorslerosis!! So coconut oil is good -- fresh pig lard is good -- not
bad as presented by your own organized medicine machinery.

See capitalism work -- eh?? Anything for that Buck!

Me thinks you all up in modern lands have a lot more problems than just oil
running out.

Stay away from the Goombah machines (Aka the Super Mario Movie) -- eh??

Peter

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Fri Mar 5 15:04:00 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20040305125252.009892d0@btlmail.btl.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.140400.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

Yes, or maybe the DEA will make it a Schedule I drug like they did recently
with GHB (Gamma Hydroxy Butrate). Sold in healthfood stores for at least 30
years with no problem, GHB is in every cell of your body, you can't live without
it. But now possession is as illegal as heroin. Why? Because it's
non-patentable, dirt cheap to make, and is the best cure for anxiety,
depression, and insomnia in the world. Also a super good inebriant that causes
no brain or liver damage, and best of all, absolutely zero hangover. Of course
they had to make it illegal, it was becoming too popular, and would have put the
liquor industry out of business, also severly damaged the pharmacuetical
industry.
That's the way things work in the biggest criminal enterprise in the world,
the US gov't.

On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 12:54:03PM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
> At 11:36 AM 3/5/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 11:24:15AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> >> Dear Peter and Harmon
> >>
> >> The Cat Tail we have here grows in boggy areas, and has a root system that
> >> extends 3/4 of the way to hell.
> >>
> >> Is there any easy and practical way to harvest cat tail roots?
> >
> > If forgot to also say that in the sense that the roots are to be used by
> >individuals for either food or in a small digester, hand digging is entirely
> >suitable. That's how the indigs did it, also how the muskrats do it. And of
> >course, even in commercial harvest, you don't want to remove every last
> scrap of
> >root, since the plant sprouts again from even small sections of root.
> Harvesting
> >in strips was decided upon in MN as the best method, leaving alternating
> strips
> >growing to propagate into the harvested area by adjoining roots.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver
>
>
> I harvested a lot of Calamus (Sweet Flag) root in my time -- which is just
> like Cat Tail.
>
> I also noted you mentioned harvesting in October. That is correct. Harvest
> is just after the freeze sets in and just after the thaw starts -- in
> Canada -- that was like April.
>
> So let me warn some of you!!
>
> You need good hip waders -- and a very strong constitution -- to hand
> harvest these roots in 32 F water/mud??
>
> Calamus is the universe's absolutely best "stomachic" and if that secret
> ever got out the FDA approved -- 1 trillion dollars per year -- anti-acid
> industry would go broke in a week!
>
> Good thing moderns are so well programmed to accept only what they are told
> to take -- eh??
>
> I can see the whole complex of industrialized nations going to deep
> economic collapse if people ever found out Calamus is the absolutely best
> medicine for heart burn -- stimulating sex drive -- and many other
> "properties".
>
> The version growing to the North can't even "seed" as it originally came
> with the British soldiers that defeated the French -- "gaining" Canada in
> the late 1700's.
>
> The British military served such terrible fare for food that the India vets
> soon learned to carry Calamus everywhere. Some soldiers planted Calamus
> around my area of Quebec -- and the plant ended up thriving -- but
> propagating only by root.
>
> Early settlers soon learned of it's values and the root was set in every
> colonized area's wet spots -- often displacing Cattail.
>
> This northern version of the plant is far more medicinally potent than the
> India original it derived from.
>
> Organized medicine and the FDA condemned Calamus as a cancer precursor
> (Carcinogenic) about 50 years or so ago -- a total fabrication that all the
> "sheeple" believe in so well to this day.
>
> Ergo -- the anti-acid industry is worth one trillion per year now!!
>
> They also sold the same load of goods on people in regards to coconut oil
> being bad for heart -- causing heart disease -- and only modern process --
> hydrogeneated oils -- are healthy. Today we have orders higher heart
> disease simply because the body required ancestrial diet "lipids" to resist
> arteriorslerosis!! So coconut oil is good -- fresh pig lard is good -- not
> bad as presented by your own organized medicine machinery.
>
> See capitalism work -- eh?? Anything for that Buck!
>
> Me thinks you all up in modern lands have a lot more problems than just oil
> running out.
>
> Stay away from the Goombah machines (Aka the Super Mario Movie) -- eh??
>
> Peter

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From lorih at ISN.NET Fri Mar 5 15:28:14 2004
From: lorih at ISN.NET (Lori)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Root fuels
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.162814.0400.LORIH@ISN.NET>

Kevin ... Irish moss harvesters here use horses with rakes. Do you have
harvesters on your side of the water? If so, would be worth a try using
the equipment unmodified, for starters.

Lori

Harmon Seaver wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:46:18PM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:

How could we harvest the little darlings?

>>
>
> How about your hands, the way the indigs did it. Or simple rakes.
The "soil" is just loose muck. In fact, you'll find a lot of cattails
are growing in floating mats, not even attached to the bottom at all.
People use a rake made from a pitchfork with the tines bent for
harvesting a lot of aquatic crops, like cattail roots, duck potatoes,
reed, etc.

From jmdavies at TELKOMSA.NET Fri Mar 5 15:11:52 2004
From: jmdavies at TELKOMSA.NET (John Davies)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Gassification list details
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.221152.0200.JMDAVIES@TELKOMSA.NET>

Greetings,

I have just had an enquiry from a person looking for information on small
gasifiers. I have lost contact with the list since the changes at the end
of 2002.

I would appreciate details to join the list in order to pass it on to the
person.

Thanking you,
John Davies.

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Fri Mar 5 16:27:33 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Root fuels
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.172733.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Lori
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lori" <lorih@ISN.NET>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 4:28 PM
Subject: [STOVES] Root fuels

> Kevin ... Irish moss harvesters here use horses with rakes. Do you have
> harvesters on your side of the water? If so, would be worth a try using
> the equipment unmodified, for starters.

The Cat Tails typically grow here on bogs, and at the edges of stagnant
fresh water ponds and lakes. There is typically a real tangle of other very
resourceful and hardy plants... cranberries, blueberries, sedges, mosses,
etc. One can walk on these bogs, simply because of the strength that the
various root systems provide. I would doubt that a horse could walk in the
areas where cat tails grow well.

Harvesting seaweed from a beach is easy in comparison. I have harvested it
simply with a wagon and manure fork. Cat tails are something else again. I
can pull on the stems and either nothing budges, or the stem breaks off. A
normal tractor would get "bogged down", and a lighter vehicle, with reduced
ground pressures would probably either skid, or dig through the mat of
vegetation and then get bogged down.

I might be missing something, but it looks to me like it would be a very
difficult task to harvest cat tail root, and that even if it could be done,
it would turn out to be a very expensive food, and an unaffordable fuel.

Harmon touches on the use of Cat Tails in wetlands. They can be used to
"suck up nutrients", such as would be available at the outfall of a natural
sewage treatment plant. See:
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/imquaf/himu/buin_031.cfm where they make
reference to "contained marshes." In a case like this, it might be possible
to "tool up" so that cat tails could be harvested readily. By harvesting
regularily, it might be that companion vegetation, which provides increased
anchorage, could be eliminated.

It doesn't look like an easy job to me.

Kindest regards,

Kevin
>
> Lori
>
> Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:46:18PM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>
>
> How could we harvest the little darlings?
>
> >>
> >
> > How about your hands, the way the indigs did it. Or simple rakes.
> The "soil" is just loose muck. In fact, you'll find a lot of cattails
> are growing in floating mats, not even attached to the bottom at all.
> People use a rake made from a pitchfork with the tines bent for
> harvesting a lot of aquatic crops, like cattail roots, duck potatoes,
> reed, etc.

From snkm at BTL.NET Fri Mar 5 15:48:06 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.144806.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

Yes -- and we have two very potent versions of Kava Kava here if your
suffering from sleep disturbance syndrome.

The absolutely best medicine for that problem --

But they can be used for Date Rape -- so highly illegal -- course anyone
that is going to rape in that manner has pocket fulls of lethal
pharmaceuticals that can do the same -- but are FDA approved. Halcyon
(spelling??) comes to mind -- GWB father's favorite. Remember when he fell
"asleep" into his plate of food in Japan -- that was from to much Halcyon.

The American "public" must all wear rings in their noses so they can be led
around so easily??

Well -- we better get back to stoves --

Oh -- one of the by products from my research into setting for hydrous
ethanol production is cane wine.

Not only is that wine rich in dietary minerals -- but it makes and
excellent potion for easy sleeping -- euphoria -- etc. And especially --
very little -- mostly (if you don't abuse) no hangover. Actually the
opposite -- you wake up charging -- raring to go.

The cane vinger I am producing is simply incredibly delicious -- we soak
jabenaro chili peppers with onion and garlic -- wow!!

Here is a comment -- from an American -- from another list:

(If every American thought like this there would be no energy crunch!)

Life affirming principles for the 21st century...

A man has billions and yet, he's still not satisfied, he has no peace, no
love, no hope, and extreme fear of the wrath of God!...truly, I feel for
him. he has forgotten that his time in this world is by necessity
limited...for those who believe that death is a tragedy, aren't you glad it
exists? imagine living forever under such tyranny, without death as an
equalizer...just imagine having to scratch to feed your family and provide
them shelter...now I have these twelve words for you that you might avoid
the fate of the insatiably greedy billionaire and here they are:

DON'T BEG, DON'T BORROW, DON'T STEAL, SPEND LESS, WORK CREATIVELY, LOVE
MORE...that's it folks! live these principles, and you'll be far wealthier
and happier than the billiinoaire and have more peace of mind too...peace
Love life, not filthy lucre!..

And finally for today, here's an introspective thought for you to
ponder...if you had all the money in the world, what would you do with it?
if you could have anything you wanted without struggle, how interesting
would your life be? if you knew that no matter how much wealth you
ACCUMULATED, someone else would spend it once you wre gone, how would you
feel?...now, if your goal in life is the accumulation of wealth, remember
this: it is far easier to accumulate wealth, than to hold on to it, you'll
be constantly worried and harried...so whatever you do, put things,
especially money, in perspective and work only for that which you TRULY
NEED, let the deluded spend the precious little time alloted to them in the
pursuit of money...

As the saying goes, money by itself is neither good nor bad but "THE BLIND
LOVE OF MONEY, IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL"...nobody needs a billion to live
comfortably!...btw, what do you need a superduper mansion for? to house
your clones? get real good friends?

SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD, AND ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE ADDED UNTO
YOU "FREELY"

The irony of God's promise is that by the time you receive the promised
blessings, you'd only want to give it away,...

peace

******************

course -- it must be illigal by now in the US not to be a consumer??

i keep hoping the good guys will win --

Peter

At 02:04 PM 3/5/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> Yes, or maybe the DEA will make it a Schedule I drug like they did recently
>with GHB (Gamma Hydroxy Butrate). Sold in healthfood stores for at least 30
>years with no problem, GHB is in every cell of your body, you can't live
without
>it. But now possession is as illegal as heroin. Why? Because it's
>non-patentable, dirt cheap to make, and is the best cure for anxiety,
>depression, and insomnia in the world. Also a super good inebriant that
causes
>no brain or liver damage, and best of all, absolutely zero hangover. Of
course
>they had to make it illegal, it was becoming too popular, and would have
put the
>liquor industry out of business, also severly damaged the pharmacuetical
>industry.
> That's the way things work in the biggest criminal enterprise in the
world,
>the US gov't.
>
>
>
>On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 12:54:03PM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>> At 11:36 AM 3/5/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>> >On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 11:24:15AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>> >> Dear Peter and Harmon
>> >>
>> >> The Cat Tail we have here grows in boggy areas, and has a root system
that
>> >> extends 3/4 of the way to hell.
>> >>
>> >> Is there any easy and practical way to harvest cat tail roots?
>> >
>> > If forgot to also say that in the sense that the roots are to be
used by
>> >individuals for either food or in a small digester, hand digging is
entirely
>> >suitable. That's how the indigs did it, also how the muskrats do it.
And of
>> >course, even in commercial harvest, you don't want to remove every last
>> scrap of
>> >root, since the plant sprouts again from even small sections of root.
>> Harvesting
>> >in strips was decided upon in MN as the best method, leaving alternating
>> strips
>> >growing to propagate into the harvested area by adjoining roots.
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Harmon Seaver
>>
>>
>> I harvested a lot of Calamus (Sweet Flag) root in my time -- which is just
>> like Cat Tail.
>>
>> I also noted you mentioned harvesting in October. That is correct. Harvest
>> is just after the freeze sets in and just after the thaw starts -- in
>> Canada -- that was like April.
>>
>> So let me warn some of you!!
>>
>> You need good hip waders -- and a very strong constitution -- to hand
>> harvest these roots in 32 F water/mud??
>>
>> Calamus is the universe's absolutely best "stomachic" and if that secret
>> ever got out the FDA approved -- 1 trillion dollars per year -- anti-acid
>> industry would go broke in a week!
>>
>> Good thing moderns are so well programmed to accept only what they are told
>> to take -- eh??
>>
>> I can see the whole complex of industrialized nations going to deep
>> economic collapse if people ever found out Calamus is the absolutely best
>> medicine for heart burn -- stimulating sex drive -- and many other
>> "properties".
>>
>> The version growing to the North can't even "seed" as it originally came
>> with the British soldiers that defeated the French -- "gaining" Canada in
>> the late 1700's.
>>
>> The British military served such terrible fare for food that the India vets
>> soon learned to carry Calamus everywhere. Some soldiers planted Calamus
>> around my area of Quebec -- and the plant ended up thriving -- but
>> propagating only by root.
>>
>> Early settlers soon learned of it's values and the root was set in every
>> colonized area's wet spots -- often displacing Cattail.
>>
>> This northern version of the plant is far more medicinally potent than the
>> India original it derived from.
>>
>> Organized medicine and the FDA condemned Calamus as a cancer precursor
>> (Carcinogenic) about 50 years or so ago -- a total fabrication that all the
>> "sheeple" believe in so well to this day.
>>
>> Ergo -- the anti-acid industry is worth one trillion per year now!!
>>
>> They also sold the same load of goods on people in regards to coconut oil
>> being bad for heart -- causing heart disease -- and only modern process --
>> hydrogeneated oils -- are healthy. Today we have orders higher heart
>> disease simply because the body required ancestrial diet "lipids" to resist
>> arteriorslerosis!! So coconut oil is good -- fresh pig lard is good -- not
>> bad as presented by your own organized medicine machinery.
>>
>> See capitalism work -- eh?? Anything for that Buck!
>>
>> Me thinks you all up in modern lands have a lot more problems than just oil
>> running out.
>>
>> Stay away from the Goombah machines (Aka the Super Mario Movie) -- eh??
>>
>> Peter
>
>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Sat Mar 6 00:29:36 2004
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Banglasdesh
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.212936.0800.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Stovers:

Please find Jonathan Rouse's paper, "Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Bangladesh" in pdf format on the Stoves Website at
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Rouse/rouiap.pdf

Regards,

Tom Miles

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sat Mar 6 00:32:24 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Root fuels
In-Reply-To: <00d701c402f8$aeaa2e30$1c9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.MAR.2004.233224.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 05:27:33PM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>
> The Cat Tails typically grow here on bogs, and at the edges of stagnant
> fresh water ponds and lakes. There is typically a real tangle of other very
> resourceful and hardy plants... cranberries, blueberries, sedges, mosses,
> etc. One can walk on these bogs, simply because of the strength that the
> various root systems provide. I would doubt that a horse could walk in the
> areas where cat tails grow well.

Actually, in most areas, cattails quickly become a monoculture, crowding out
everything else. That's why all those millions of dollars are being spent to
restore wetlands by removing the cattails.

>
> Harvesting seaweed from a beach is easy in comparison. I have harvested it
> simply with a wagon and manure fork. Cat tails are something else again. I
> can pull on the stems and either nothing budges, or the stem breaks off. A
> normal tractor would get "bogged down", and a lighter vehicle, with reduced
> ground pressures would probably either skid, or dig through the mat of
> vegetation and then get bogged down.

You obviously didn't bother to read my previous post.

>
> I might be missing something, but it looks to me like it would be a very
> difficult task to harvest cat tail root, and that even if it could be done,
> it would turn out to be a very expensive food, and an unaffordable fuel.
>

Yup, you sure are. Try reading. There's already been a ton of research on
it. Fairly simple process actually.

> Harmon touches on the use of Cat Tails in wetlands. They can be used to
> "suck up nutrients", such as would be available at the outfall of a natural
> sewage treatment plant. See:
> http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/imquaf/himu/buin_031.cfm where they make
> reference to "contained marshes." In a case like this, it might be possible
> to "tool up" so that cat tails could be harvested readily. By harvesting
> regularily, it might be that companion vegetation, which provides increased
> anchorage, could be eliminated.

Oh yeah, right. Cattails needs zero help in eliminating competition.

Hmmm. You really do need to read up on a subject before posting, Kevin. As,
I think, Peter pointed out the other day. Not sure what exactly the problem is,
but you definitely are missing a *lot*.

> It doesn't look like an easy job to me.

Well, the scientists who've done the research say it's quite easy.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Sat Mar 6 00:44:52 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Biomass vs "LPG" fuel
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.074452.0200.>

Dear Stovers

I forgot to include cow dung in my fuels list. Actually it is a pretty
good fuel. It has very short flames so you can place the fire level
much closer to the pot that with wood and light biomass briquettes.

Paul - have you tried dry dung as a gasifier fuel? I think it make a
good gas flame. You may have to preheat the primary air, or in your
stove make it a bit of a retort. I think you had some preheating on the
model you had in Kirkland, right?

Kevin - your list of questions would make a good Doctoral thesis! Good
heavens! I am way too busy to give a comprehensive answer. I am
preparing to make a presentation in JHB next week of three new stoves,
two of which are completely new.

The stove I was using is a modified Vesto, but they can all be burned in
a regular one with a little practice.

I find that no matter what you build, you can't get away from having to
know something about running the fire. The burning of multiple fuels is
not bullet-proof. At least some management skill is required,
essentially 'fuel metering'. You have to keep the right amount of fuel
in the stove. What can be made easier is the recovering from a
nearly-out condition and having some form of power control while keeping
the CO levels under control.

By the way, I feel that turning a stove down and keeping a clean burn is
one of the bigger challenges, certainly harder than burning multiple
fuels and making it cheap to build.

The description of the stove is: a 4kw (max - normally 2 is enough) gas
insulated (air) all-metal top-loader with heat recycling to give
preheated primary and secondary air and some element of control over the
airflows. It can hold a couple of kilos of hardwood but that is usually
pointless as that would give way too much heat to be useful for ordinary
cooking and it would last for perhaps 2 or 3 hours which is unnecessary.

Bascially, multi-fuel capability means being able to supply lots of
preheated secondary air to a light fuel and a highly preheated primary
air to a dense one. Some hardwoods have salt crystals in between the
cellulose fibres and extinguish the flame giving a low charcoaling heat
ideal for roasting meat. They are hard to burn in a 3 stove fire.
These fuels are just about impossible to split with hand tools. Sawn
chunks are makeable and manageable, and respond well to preheated
primary air.

As I mentioned in my talk in Kirkland, the long term future of stoves
is, to me, the development of small hot fires using small amounts of
wood. Burning small amounts of very energy dense material is only
possible (in my limited experience) by preheating the primary air. This
means a fundamental approach in improved cook stove design.

Ironwood, which sinks in water, is very difficult to light and tends to
go out on its own unless there is a fairly large amount of it. People
use it to Bar-B-Q (braai) meat, though most of the dead ironwood (you
are not allowed to cut living trees) is made into dense, high quality
charcoal.

Light biomass is voluminous for its heat content and I would rate the
capacity at no more than 400 gm with 300 being a sensible maximum.

Cecil Cook reports daily using charcoal, a full load (top lit) which
burns unattended for 4 hours and prepares lunch. I am not sure what the
load mass is as I do not promote charcoal burning. It must be the
better part of a kilo.

I would rate coconut husks as the most difficult to burn. First, they
will not light by themselves because coir won't support a flame unless
it is already hot. It has to be added to a hot stove - created by a
little wood fire. Then it can smoke like crazy and the hot secondary
air will ignite the gray cloud. After a while the coir burns out and
the outer husk remains which is where the real heat is in the fuel.
That part burns well.

Thanks for you interest.

Regards
Crispin

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm@ca.inter.net]
Sent: 05 March 2004 17:55
To: Crispin /Posix; STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Biomass vs "LPG" fuel

Dear Crispin

Wow!! What you are claiming does indeed represent an enormous
achievement!! However, while I still find this hard to believe, there is
a famous saying: "Reality trumps beliefs." :-) (Kevin Chisholm, 5 March
2004)

There is an enormous range of biomass fuels ranging from wet bagasse to
kiln dried sander dust. Nobody expects one stove to handle such a range
of fuels.

Could you please describe the conditions of various fuels that give
acceptable results in your specific stove system?

[snip]

From rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG Sat Mar 6 04:10:13 2004
From: rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
In-Reply-To: <000001c40279$9528e480$e49dfea9@home>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.111013.0200.RSTANLEY@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>

Crispin,

Ref your discussion about local contant and local availability, I agree
that what may be defined as "local" may or may not be locally derived.
That is nto the point: It is about local availability. There is a fine
line between, locally avilable and imoported to make it locally
available. Is about the reliability ande interity of the supply chain.
And the vast assumptioon of the ease with which that chain is set up
first by teh international expert then maintained by the national in
charge of the project.

Too many memories from earlier days in East Africa, of the devolution
of this reality-- to supplying the haves only, prevent me from
dismissing how tenuous the transition from "not available-- to the
promise of "locally available" can be. Seems as though we need an
internediary in terms of local availability assurance organistion or
some such. If you think that the free market will provide for this in
a survival based economy when your target market in that economy is the
development of production capacity amongst the poorer segment of the
population, thats one thing: If your target is the supply of a
finished product to them to buy then, of course your model will
probably work in gernerating more consumption for a product. I have
not seen many examples of the former, but abundance of the latter.
Still, there seems to be little correlation between increased
consumption of the best of the renewables and development of local
capacity and incomes. I would be entirely hypocritical and arrogant of
me to propose one over the other to one of your own experience but the
diffference in the two approaches still lingers, to my mind with equal
vaildity.

One pays their money and takes their chances eh ?

Richard Stanley

Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>Dear Stovers and Business Promoters
>
>Following on from the many contributors to this important discussion, I
>again pick up a sentence from Dr Karve (with whom I agree wholeheartedly
>on this topic) written in his message of 29 February:
>
>"A small manufacturer, who operates a business as a family business,
>uses local raw materials, and deals directly with the end-user, is
>nowadays well in a position to compete successfully with the organised
>industry. "
>
>While I quibble with the use of the description 'organized' to mean
>'large and formal' industry, the description of a vertically integrated
>production and marketing system is accurate. Small industries are also
>quite well organized, but I am not pushing that point.
>
>My point today is about the 'local raw materials'. I observe that all
>manufacturers use raw materials which might be 'local' in the sense that
>they are are available from a nearby supplier (farmer or shop).
>Something grown nearby is local, but as far as the industry is
>concerned, metal sold next door is also 'local'.
>
>When planning to expand the production of metal stoves from, say,
>Swaziland to Ethiopia, one of the inputs is metal sheeting. A stove
>promoter might ask if there is plenty of sheet metal available in
>Ethiopia. The answer would be, "Yes, sheet metal is locally available."
>
>
>No one pretends that the metal is produced in the country but it would
>be incorrect to take a position that unless the metal was made inside
>Ethiopia, or inside Addis Ababa, or inside the Rwanda section of town,
>the stove project would not go ahead because the materials were not
>'local'. They are locally available and there usually is no concern by
>the producer about where it comes from.
>
>With devices known or classed as 'appropriate technology' there is
>always an emphasis on their being 'locally produced' however this is an
>incomplete sentence, most of the time. It is actually taken to mean
>'locally available inputs' not literally locally produced in all
>aspects: iron from a local source smelted and rolled into sheets and
>electrically coated with locally mined zinc; local wire drawn and formed
>into nails and so on. There is no need to elaborate.
>
>If you accept that 'raw materials' might be traded over a wide area and
>in different stages of finish, then I have made the point.
>
>Next, how do we define a 'raw material'? One man's finished good is
>another man's raw material. This is not an abstract point. Why should
>a stove maker always start with plain sheets of metal? Are we forcing
>him to be vertically integrated because of an commitment to an ideology?
>Of course not. We want to maximize his income by having as many of the
>manufacturing and marketing functions as possible under his control and
>to have them contribute to his income. In fact we really mean 'under
>his hand' because if he hires someone, then technically speak production
>isn't vertically integrated any longer. The employee is really a
>subcontractor working with facilities provided by the employer so there
>is actually stratification of the production.
>
>In the modern economic paradign with its CNC capabilities and the
>remarkably low cost of shipping containers of parts around the planet,
>there is a new world of artisanal manufacturing opportunities. If we
>Stovers widen the understanding of what a raw material is, we can have
>artisanal production of quite high complexity.
>
>An example of this is manufacturing radios. There is a man in Mbabane
>who makes solar powered radios and sells them at the local vegetable
>market. He is certainly an artisanal producer, but we don't seriously
>expect him to make solar cells and HF receiver circuit boards, or vinyl
>sheet or fibreboard or rivets or solder. It is the widespread
>availability of components and sub-assemblies that allows this 'artisan'
>to manufacture profitably at a low volume what are essentially custom
>made solar powered radios that sell for less than $50.
>
>Just because we promote stoves does not mean that we have to make the
>whole thing 'locally'. Stoves use inputs that are from somewhere else.
>As there is only one planetary economy so someone somewhere benefits
>when we buy something. If stoves were built out of parts some of which
>were finished, some semi-finished and some made from locally available
>raw materials (as described above) we would find that a high quality
>product that satisfies the customers is available on the market with
>more 'local content' than a fully imported model. It might even be a
>superior product with advantages not available from the import such as
>being tuned to the local fuel quality.
>
>What I am advocating is an omnivorous approach to stove dissemination.
>Our expansion models should allow for all combinations of distribution
>of stoves, parts, materials and training.
>
>There is a remarkable facet of the economy becoming more evident each
>year. I think I am able to ship to Ethiopia finished stove parts, mass
>produced in Johannesburg, that will land in Addis Ababa at the same
>price as the raw material the artisan would othewise have to purchase
>and start with. A modern manufacturing facility producing stove
>components does not have to fabricate and transport whole stoves It
>could operate profitably making stove parts which could be sold as
>compact kits for efficient distribution and local assembly.
>
>An artisan ccould choose whether to make parts from sheets or buy the
>finished parts from a shop. If a finished part such as a hinge or a
>padlock, or a sheet metal screw is as cheap or cheaper than making one
>himself, he normally takes the most economically efficient path and buys
>it. We would not claim it was a mistake to do so.
>
>The best opportunities for formal and informal sector stove
>co-production are emerging from this paradigm.
>
>Regards
>Crispin
>
>
>
>
>

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sat Mar 6 08:08:10 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Root fuels
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.090810.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Harmon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Root fuels

> On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 05:27:33PM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > The Cat Tails typically grow here on bogs, and at the edges of stagnant
> > fresh water ponds and lakes. There is typically a real tangle of other
very
> > resourceful and hardy plants... cranberries, blueberries, sedges,
mosses,
> > etc. One can walk on these bogs, simply because of the strength that the
> > various root systems provide. I would doubt that a horse could walk in
the
> > areas where cat tails grow well.
>
> Actually, in most areas, cattails quickly become a monoculture,
crowding out
> everything else. That's why all those millions of dollars are being spent
to
> restore wetlands by removing the cattails.
>
I would certainly agree that this is the case where cat tails actually grow.
What I see is that cat tails grow mostly on the wet perimiter of eutrophying
ponds and lakes, and not so much on the "inland side". These areas are
relatively acid and infertile, and only very hardy plants can grow there. We
do not have "acre expanses" of cat tails here. I can see your comments as
being relevant to "outfall areas" where the marsh is fed a heavy nutrient
load.
> >
> > Harvesting seaweed from a beach is easy in comparison. I have harvested
it
> > simply with a wagon and manure fork. Cat tails are something else again.
I
> > can pull on the stems and either nothing budges, or the stem breaks off.
A
> > normal tractor would get "bogged down", and a lighter vehicle, with
reduced
> > ground pressures would probably either skid, or dig through the mat of
> > vegetation and then get bogged down.
>
> You obviously didn't bother to read my previous post.

Yes I did, and find that you seem to be addressing a very different issue.
You are addressing the issue of capital intense ways of disposing of "pest
cat tails." What I am attempting to address is the small scale harvesting of
cat tails by people who need food or energy, and don't have the luxury of
powered machinery. Bear in mind that this thread was originated basically as
a way to find alternative starch sources for AD's digestor.
>
> >
> > I might be missing something, but it looks to me like it would be a very
> > difficult task to harvest cat tail root, and that even if it could be
done,
> > it would turn out to be a very expensive food, and an unaffordable fuel.
> >
>
> Yup, you sure are. Try reading. There's already been a ton of research
on
> it. Fairly simple process actually.

I would respectfully disagree with you. There may indeed be a lot of
research on large scale mechanized harvesting of "pest cat tail" obstructed
waterways, or from Constructed Wetlands. See
http://www.epa.gov/owow/wetlands/pdf/design.pdf for a neat manual on how to
design a Constructed Wetland, but not very much on how to harvest the
cattails.
>
> > Harmon touches on the use of Cat Tails in wetlands. They can be used to
> > "suck up nutrients", such as would be available at the outfall of a
natural
> > sewage treatment plant. See:
> > http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/imquaf/himu/buin_031.cfm where they make
> > reference to "contained marshes." In a case like this, it might be
possible
> > to "tool up" so that cat tails could be harvested readily. By harvesting
> > regularily, it might be that companion vegetation, which provides
increased
> > anchorage, could be eliminated.
>
> Oh yeah, right. Cattails needs zero help in eliminating competition.
>
> Hmmm. You really do need to read up on a subject before posting,
Kevin. As,
> I think, Peter pointed out the other day. Not sure what exactly the
problem is,
> but you definitely are missing a *lot*.

With all due respect, you do an excellent job of addressing the wrong
problem. I did indeed read your postings, and found them generally devoid of
information helpful to the problem at hand: finding ways to harvest
cattails on a small scale basis, by people with little to no capital
resources other than perhaps a fork or a machette.

I personally have tried to harvest cattails. This is not at all an easy
task. Peter has personally harvested Calamus root, and confirms the
difficulty.

So... I would appreciate it very much indeed if you would be kind enough to
refer to your previous postings on the matter, and show me ANYTHING of
relevance to the problem at hand that I might have missed. The closest I see
you coming to relevance is a reference to "...dig it manually; thats the way
the indigs and muskrats did it..."

There is a neat story about the Ottawa Bureaucrat who came to the Sydney
Airport to tell the locals how to get rid of the huge piles of snow at the
end of the runway. Being from Ottawa, he had all the answers. His advice was
"Set fire to it." When the locals asked "How do we do that, Sir?", he
replied "Don't trouble me with details."
>
> > It doesn't look like an easy job to me.
>
> Well, the scientists who've done the research say it's quite easy.
>
Please be kind enough to tell Dr. Karve something that will be helpful to
him in enabling poor farmers with few capital resources to harvest cattails
for food or fuel. Laying head trips on me doesn't put any starch in his
digesters.

Kevin Chisholm
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Mar 5 21:29:33 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.075933.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Peter,
thanks for the explanation about yucca. The knotgrass that you mentions
sounds like the nutgrass that I mention. Cyperus rotundus, like Cynodon
dactylon, is a universal weed occuring everywhere in the world. The common
names change from locality to locality and therefore often cause confusion.
It is therefore better to use the scientific latin names (which are of
course often not known to the laymen).
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Singfield <snkm@btl.net>
To: adkarve <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Rootfuels

> At 06:30 AM 3/4/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> >Tapioca (Manihot esculentus) is the same as cassava but it has nothing to
do
> >with Yucca. Tapioca is a dicot plant beconging to the family
Euphorbiaceae,
> >whereas Yucca is a monocot, belonging to the Familie Amarillidaceae. Ron
> >also mentioned a false banana.
>
> Latin Central America calls the Cassava plant "Yucca" -- probably a slang
> term??
>
> >There is also a weed called nutgrass (Cyperus rotundus), that has
> underground
> >tubers. The tubers are valued in India because they contain a perfume.
>
> That is also a common weed here in Belize -- and farmers try everything to
> kill it off. Mostly to no avail!!
>
> It would be extremely labor intensive to harvest these small tubers -- as
> they go quite deep.
>
> I'd better look up "Cyperus rotundus" -- there just might be another name
> confusion issue at hand here.
>
> Our nutgrass -- also called knotgrass -- has multiple small tubers --
about
> 2 to 3 cm in rough diameter -- that go from 8 to 20 cm under the ground --
> usually.
>
> Peter Singfield -- Belize

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Mar 5 22:36:28 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Use of agricultural waste dry biomass
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.090628.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Stovers,
the suggestion of making fuel briquettes from uncharred agricultural waste
biomass has been around in India for more than twentyfive years. The
Ministry of Non-conventional Energy Sources even offered a soft loan to
potential briquette manufacturers to buy the required machinery. The raw
biomass in question comprised wheat straw, sugarcane leaves, cotton and
pigeonpea stalks, corn stalks and cobs, stalks of mustard, etc. This
material is highly lignified, some also silicified, and it is extremely
tough and springy. It required tremendous amount of pressure to compress it
into briquettes. Therefore the machines were extremely heavy, and because
they were electrically operated, they had to be installed in a central
placce. The biomass is available plentifully but it is scattered all over
the countryside. Therefore, although it was available free of cost, its
collection and transport were very costly. Since the briquettes burned just
like wood and had the same calorific value as wood, they could not be sold
at a cost higher than fuelwood. Ultimately the scheme failed. All the
machines that I know of are lying idle and the manufacturers have defaulted
on the repayment of the loan. The reason that our technology of charring the
biomass has succeeded is because the char crumbles very easily and therefore
it can be made into fuel balls, like dung cakes, even by hand. Also, our
charring kilns are very small and portable. They are carried to the place
where the biomass is available. Since the charred material is only 20% of
the original biomass, its transport to the briquetting factory is not very
difficult. And lastly, charcoal is a high value fuel, that can be sold at 5
times the cost of wood. On the whole, the economics are in favour of char
briquettes and not in favour of briquettes made from raw agricultural waste
biomass. The latter can be made profitably only if the biomass is available
at one place in bulk, like sugarcane bagasse in a sugar factory, or peanut
hulls or coconut hulls, in an oil mill. In Punjab Province, which is the
wheat bowl of India, there was an attempt to generate electricity using
wheat straw. But the operation of collecting the straw scattered in the
field after combine harvesting and transporting it to the electricity
generation plant was so high, that this attempt too failed.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: adkarve <adkarve@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Cc: <geneShu@aol.com>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 3:14 AM
Subject: Use of agricultural waste dry biomass was: Re: [STOVES] Charcoal
ascooking fuel

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Mar 6 08:03:21 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:56 2004
Subject: Calamus
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.183321.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

In India, if a baby has caught a cold, calamus root paste is applied to its
forehead and a bag containing calamus root powder is hung on a string around
the baby's neck .
A.D.Karve

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Singfield <snkm@BTL.NET>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Rootfuels

> At 11:36 AM 3/5/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 11:24:15AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> >> Dear Peter and Harmon
> >>
> >> The Cat Tail we have here grows in boggy areas, and has a root system
that
> >> extends 3/4 of the way to hell.
> >>
> >> Is there any easy and practical way to harvest cat tail roots?
> >
> > If forgot to also say that in the sense that the roots are to be used
by
> >individuals for either food or in a small digester, hand digging is
entirely
> >suitable. That's how the indigs did it, also how the muskrats do it. And
of
> >course, even in commercial harvest, you don't want to remove every last
> scrap of
> >root, since the plant sprouts again from even small sections of root.
> Harvesting
> >in strips was decided upon in MN as the best method, leaving alternating
> strips
> >growing to propagate into the harvested area by adjoining roots.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver
>
>
> I harvested a lot of Calamus (Sweet Flag) root in my time -- which is just
> like Cat Tail.
>
> I also noted you mentioned harvesting in October. That is correct. Harvest
> is just after the freeze sets in and just after the thaw starts -- in
> Canada -- that was like April.
>
> So let me warn some of you!!
>
> You need good hip waders -- and a very strong constitution -- to hand
> harvest these roots in 32 F water/mud??
>
> Calamus is the universe's absolutely best "stomachic" and if that secret
> ever got out the FDA approved -- 1 trillion dollars per year -- anti-acid
> industry would go broke in a week!
>
> Good thing moderns are so well programmed to accept only what they are
told
> to take -- eh??
>
> I can see the whole complex of industrialized nations going to deep
> economic collapse if people ever found out Calamus is the absolutely best
> medicine for heart burn -- stimulating sex drive -- and many other
> "properties".
>
> The version growing to the North can't even "seed" as it originally came
> with the British soldiers that defeated the French -- "gaining" Canada in
> the late 1700's.
>
> The British military served such terrible fare for food that the India
vets
> soon learned to carry Calamus everywhere. Some soldiers planted Calamus
> around my area of Quebec -- and the plant ended up thriving -- but
> propagating only by root.
>
> Early settlers soon learned of it's values and the root was set in every
> colonized area's wet spots -- often displacing Cattail.
>
> This northern version of the plant is far more medicinally potent than the
> India original it derived from.
>
> Organized medicine and the FDA condemned Calamus as a cancer precursor
> (Carcinogenic) about 50 years or so ago -- a total fabrication that all
the
> "sheeple" believe in so well to this day.
>
> Ergo -- the anti-acid industry is worth one trillion per year now!!
>
> They also sold the same load of goods on people in regards to coconut oil
> being bad for heart -- causing heart disease -- and only modern process --
> hydrogeneated oils -- are healthy. Today we have orders higher heart
> disease simply because the body required ancestrial diet "lipids" to
resist
> arteriorslerosis!! So coconut oil is good -- fresh pig lard is good -- not
> bad as presented by your own organized medicine machinery.
>
> See capitalism work -- eh?? Anything for that Buck!
>
> Me thinks you all up in modern lands have a lot more problems than just
oil
> running out.
>
> Stay away from the Goombah machines (Aka the Super Mario Movie) -- eh??
>
> Peter

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Mar 6 07:31:03 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.180103.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Paul,
although banana is not an annual, it is also not a perennial. After the
banana fruit has been harvested, the rhizome can be removed from the soil
and used. The lignotuber in the tree species starts developing right in the
juvenile stage. One can therefore think of growing the tree species as a
row crop and harvest the tubers after a certain period of time.
Yours A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu>
To: adkarve <adkarve@pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>; <geneShu@aol.com>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Rootfuels

> AD and Gene and Stovers,
>
> The bananas and the trees are not annual crops, so getting the rootfuels
> would be detrimental to the main purpose of growing the bananas and trees.
>
> But are tapioca and Psophocarpus tetragonolobus annuals (or short cycle
> plants) where root harvest could be conducted?
>
> So far, the list with above and below ground products is quite short, with
> buffalo gourd as the leading contender!! Is buffalo gourd
fruit/vegetable
> available anywhere? what are its uses?
>
> Paul
>
> At 06:07 AM 3/3/04 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> >Dear Paul,
> >the category of crops you mention are banana (fruits and underground
> >rhizome), taro (leaves serve as vegetable), tapioca (aerial stems can be
> >used as woody fuel), Psophocarpus tetragonolobus (leaves and green pods
as
> >vegetables). However, except for banana, the rhizomes and tubers of all
> >others are also eaten by humans. There may be more such crops, but I can
> >think of only the above three. There is a large number of tree species
that
> >have an underground tuber, called lignotuber, because it is quite woody.
I
> >am planning to conduct a study of the lignotubers to see what other
> >nutrients they contain. Jatropha has such tubers, and so have many
species
> >of Eucalyptus.
> >Yours
> >A.D.Karve
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
> >To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> >Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 3:18 AM
> >Subject: [STOVES] Rootfuels
> >
> >
> > > Gene,
> > >
> > > Could you mention some crops that give product above ground, and we
can
> > > still utilize the rootfuels.
> > >
> > > Can we assume that virtually all of the useful rootfuels will be
better in
> > > sandy soils both because of the ease for the roots to grow large and
for
> > > the ease of harvest? Any exceptions to this?
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > At 06:06 PM 2/29/04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
> > > >Stovers - again a reply from Gene. Ron
> > >
> > > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> > > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Mar 6 07:35:03 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Charcoal as cooking fuel
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.180503.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Crispin,
coconut husk can be charred and used in the form of briquettes. I have taken
conut husk, shells and dried leaves into account.
Yours A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Charcoal as cooking fuel

> Dear A.D.
>
> I have been testing fuels this week and I have managed to get a decent
> 'cook' using coconut husks but breaking them into fairly small
> banana-shaped pieces (smaller than I first thought they have to be) and
> charcoaling them in a Vesto and then burning the charcoal.
>
> My earliest trials using a Tsotso stove were only successful for 20
> seconds out of 160, and the other 140 seconds it smoked a lot. The
> right air flow seems to solve this completely. I was able to boil and
> simmer water (3 litres in a 4 litre pot).
>
> The disadvantage of coconut husks is that it has to be added more
> frequently than wood, however perhaps a large capacity will resolve
> this. It wasn't all _that_ inconvenient in the present layout.
>
> I don't know if you are counting coconut husks in your biomass
> calculation but there are millions of tons of them all over Mo?ambique
> simply for the taking.
>
> The husks I have come from the only, lonely palm tree in Swaziland!
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
> +++++++++++++
>
>

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Sat Mar 6 09:34:58 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Rootfuels
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.073458.0700.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear Harmon or All:

I have long admired the sugar cane plant as a potential source of so much
more than sugar. It is a C4 solar collector par excellence. By itself,
properly used, it could fill much of the energy needs of the equatorial
countries. However, for each answer I find, I generate more questions.

1) I like to use molasses to make my bread. My impression is that the
molasses is the mother liquor left after the white sugar has been extracted,
and that it still has all the original nutrients from 10-50 times as much
liquid. And it should be cheap, but in the US is pricey because we don't
use much.

Is there a downside? Comments?

2) There is much more energy in the bagasse than required for boiling
sugar, so the old boilers were made inefficient so they could also dispose
of the balance. Winrock International has had a program for many years to
lend money to the sugar plants to upgrade the boilers so that electric power
could also be generated, in some places as valuable as the sugar. How's
that doing? (Does anyone know Dan Jantzen's current address?)

3) I was in Brazil working on a sugar cane pellet gasifier several years
ago. The cane pellets were the best biomass pellets I have ever seen. They
cost $5/ton in Brazil. Unfortunately, the production at the plant I saw has
been shut down. It was initially intended for making cattle feed. They
boiled the trash for an hour to hydrolyse the cellulose/hemicellulose before
pelletizing. I don't know whether this helped the densification process or
not, but the pellets sure smelled lovely - vanillan I would guess.

4) I have long suspected that the pellet industry does very little
thinking. It takes >10,000 psi and 100 hp hr/ton to pelletize sawdust. But
wood is cellular and strong. It should take much less to pelletize paper or
cane trash because the cellular structure has already been collapsed. But
the machines made for sawdust seem to take as much power for paper and
bagasse as they do for sawdust. Is this flaw in the machine design?

5) I am 15 lb lighter with a lower carb diet, and so are 10-40 Million
other USAnians. What is this going to do to the sugar industry if it
spreads worldwide.

Lots to ponder here... Hope I get some good answers from our crop of
experts.

Onward and Upward,

TOM REED BEF

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm@BTL.NET>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Rootfuels

> Yes -- and we have two very potent versions of Kava Kava here if your
> suffering from sleep disturbance syndrome.
>
> The absolutely best medicine for that problem --
>
> But they can be used for Date Rape -- so highly illegal -- course anyone
> that is going to rape in that manner has pocket fulls of lethal
> pharmaceuticals that can do the same -- but are FDA approved. Halcyon
> (spelling??) comes to mind -- GWB father's favorite. Remember when he fell
> "asleep" into his plate of food in Japan -- that was from to much Halcyon.
>
> The American "public" must all wear rings in their noses so they can be
led
> around so easily??
>
> Well -- we better get back to stoves --
>
> Oh -- one of the by products from my research into setting for hydrous
> ethanol production is cane wine.
>
> Not only is that wine rich in dietary minerals -- but it makes and
> excellent potion for easy sleeping -- euphoria -- etc. And especially --
> very little -- mostly (if you don't abuse) no hangover. Actually the
> opposite -- you wake up charging -- raring to go.
>
> The cane vinger I am producing is simply incredibly delicious -- we soak
> jabenaro chili peppers with onion and garlic -- wow!!
>
> Here is a comment -- from an American -- from another list:
>
> (If every American thought like this there would be no energy crunch!)
>
> Life affirming principles for the 21st century...
>
> A man has billions and yet, he's still not satisfied, he has no peace, no
> love, no hope, and extreme fear of the wrath of God!...truly, I feel for
> him. he has forgotten that his time in this world is by necessity
> limited...for those who believe that death is a tragedy, aren't you glad
it
> exists? imagine living forever under such tyranny, without death as an
> equalizer...just imagine having to scratch to feed your family and provide
> them shelter...now I have these twelve words for you that you might avoid
> the fate of the insatiably greedy billionaire and here they are:
>
> DON'T BEG, DON'T BORROW, DON'T STEAL, SPEND LESS, WORK CREATIVELY, LOVE
> MORE...that's it folks! live these principles, and you'll be far wealthier
> and happier than the billiinoaire and have more peace of mind too...peace
> Love life, not filthy lucre!..
>
> And finally for today, here's an introspective thought for you to
> ponder...if you had all the money in the world, what would you do with it?
> if you could have anything you wanted without struggle, how interesting
> would your life be? if you knew that no matter how much wealth you
> ACCUMULATED, someone else would spend it once you wre gone, how would you
> feel?...now, if your goal in life is the accumulation of wealth, remember
> this: it is far easier to accumulate wealth, than to hold on to it, you'll
> be constantly worried and harried...so whatever you do, put things,
> especially money, in perspective and work only for that which you TRULY
> NEED, let the deluded spend the precious little time alloted to them in
the
> pursuit of money...
>
> As the saying goes, money by itself is neither good nor bad but "THE BLIND
> LOVE OF MONEY, IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL"...nobody needs a billion to live
> comfortably!...btw, what do you need a superduper mansion for? to house
> your clones? get real good friends?
>
> SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD, AND ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE ADDED UNTO
> YOU "FREELY"
>
> The irony of God's promise is that by the time you receive the promised
> blessings, you'd only want to give it away,...
>
> peace
>
> ******************
>
> course -- it must be illigal by now in the US not to be a consumer??
>
> i keep hoping the good guys will win --
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> At 02:04 PM 3/5/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> > Yes, or maybe the DEA will make it a Schedule I drug like they did
recently
> >with GHB (Gamma Hydroxy Butrate). Sold in healthfood stores for at least
30
> >years with no problem, GHB is in every cell of your body, you can't live
> without
> >it. But now possession is as illegal as heroin. Why? Because it's
> >non-patentable, dirt cheap to make, and is the best cure for anxiety,
> >depression, and insomnia in the world. Also a super good inebriant that
> causes
> >no brain or liver damage, and best of all, absolutely zero hangover. Of
> course
> >they had to make it illegal, it was becoming too popular, and would have
> put the
> >liquor industry out of business, also severly damaged the pharmacuetical
> >industry.
> > That's the way things work in the biggest criminal enterprise in the
> world,
> >the US gov't.
> >
> >
> >
> >On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 12:54:03PM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
> >> At 11:36 AM 3/5/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> >> >On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 11:24:15AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> >> >> Dear Peter and Harmon
> >> >>
> >> >> The Cat Tail we have here grows in boggy areas, and has a root
system
> that
> >> >> extends 3/4 of the way to hell.
> >> >>
> >> >> Is there any easy and practical way to harvest cat tail roots?
> >> >
> >> > If forgot to also say that in the sense that the roots are to be
> used by
> >> >individuals for either food or in a small digester, hand digging is
> entirely
> >> >suitable. That's how the indigs did it, also how the muskrats do it.
> And of
> >> >course, even in commercial harvest, you don't want to remove every
last
> >> scrap of
> >> >root, since the plant sprouts again from even small sections of root.
> >> Harvesting
> >> >in strips was decided upon in MN as the best method, leaving
alternating
> >> strips
> >> >growing to propagate into the harvested area by adjoining roots.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Harmon Seaver
> >>
> >>
> >> I harvested a lot of Calamus (Sweet Flag) root in my time -- which is
just
> >> like Cat Tail.
> >>
> >> I also noted you mentioned harvesting in October. That is correct.
Harvest
> >> is just after the freeze sets in and just after the thaw starts -- in
> >> Canada -- that was like April.
> >>
> >> So let me warn some of you!!
> >>
> >> You need good hip waders -- and a very strong constitution -- to hand
> >> harvest these roots in 32 F water/mud??
> >>
> >> Calamus is the universe's absolutely best "stomachic" and if that
secret
> >> ever got out the FDA approved -- 1 trillion dollars per year --
anti-acid
> >> industry would go broke in a week!
> >>
> >> Good thing moderns are so well programmed to accept only what they are
told
> >> to take -- eh??
> >>
> >> I can see the whole complex of industrialized nations going to deep
> >> economic collapse if people ever found out Calamus is the absolutely
best
> >> medicine for heart burn -- stimulating sex drive -- and many other
> >> "properties".
> >>
> >> The version growing to the North can't even "seed" as it originally
came
> >> with the British soldiers that defeated the French -- "gaining" Canada
in
> >> the late 1700's.
> >>
> >> The British military served such terrible fare for food that the India
vets
> >> soon learned to carry Calamus everywhere. Some soldiers planted Calamus
> >> around my area of Quebec -- and the plant ended up thriving -- but
> >> propagating only by root.
> >>
> >> Early settlers soon learned of it's values and the root was set in
every
> >> colonized area's wet spots -- often displacing Cattail.
> >>
> >> This northern version of the plant is far more medicinally potent than
the
> >> India original it derived from.
> >>
> >> Organized medicine and the FDA condemned Calamus as a cancer precursor
> >> (Carcinogenic) about 50 years or so ago -- a total fabrication that all
the
> >> "sheeple" believe in so well to this day.
> >>
> >> Ergo -- the anti-acid industry is worth one trillion per year now!!
> >>
> >> They also sold the same load of goods on people in regards to coconut
oil
> >> being bad for heart -- causing heart disease -- and only modern
process --
> >> hydrogeneated oils -- are healthy. Today we have orders higher heart
> >> disease simply because the body required ancestrial diet "lipids" to
resist
> >> arteriorslerosis!! So coconut oil is good -- fresh pig lard is good --
not
> >> bad as presented by your own organized medicine machinery.
> >>
> >> See capitalism work -- eh?? Anything for that Buck!
> >>
> >> Me thinks you all up in modern lands have a lot more problems than just
oil
> >> running out.
> >>
> >> Stay away from the Goombah machines (Aka the Super Mario Movie) -- eh??
> >>
> >> Peter
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver
> >CyberShamanix
> >http://www.cybershamanix.com
> >

From snkm at BTL.NET Sat Mar 6 10:56:13 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: [GASL] [STOVES] Rootfuels
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.095613.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

Dear Tom and all;

At 07:34 AM 3/6/2004 -0700, TBReed wrote:
>Dear Harmon or All:
>
>I have long admired the sugar cane plant as a potential source of so much
>more than sugar. It is a C4 solar collector par excellence. By itself,
>properly used, it could fill much of the energy needs of the equatorial
>countries. However, for each answer I find, I generate more questions.
>
>1) I like to use molasses to make my bread. My impression is that the
>molasses is the mother liquor left after the white sugar has been extracted,
>and that it still has all the original nutrients from 10-50 times as much
>liquid. And it should be cheap, but in the US is pricey because we don't
>use much.
>
>Is there a downside? Comments?

Molasses is a sugar factory by product. Cane syrup is the full bodied
product you should be using for your bread making.

>
>2) There is much more energy in the bagasse than required for boiling
>sugar, so the old boilers were made inefficient so they could also dispose
>of the balance. Winrock International has had a program for many years to
>lend money to the sugar plants to upgrade the boilers so that electric power
>could also be generated, in some places as valuable as the sugar. How's
>that doing? (Does anyone know Dan Jantzen's current address?)

Most -- if not all -- sugar factories generate their own electric power
requirements from their boilers. Steam is a required processing agent in
the sugar making industry.

Due to the high ash content of sugar cane -- specifically the silicates --
use of modern, high efficiency, water tube boilers are not feasible.

The silicates coat all exposed surfaces -- and boiler tubes are changed one
per year. To expensive for a water tube boiler.

Ergo -- they use large diameter (relatively) fire tube boilers. Easy to
maintain as in changing tubes.

As the steam is such low quality (average is around 350 F -- super
saturated) they get 3% and less over all efficiencies with their turbines.

Remember my series of posting on using traditional, conventional, fire tube
boilers but exporting the low quality steam to geothermal ORC turbines??

The then low quality steam converts to electric power at 20% plus
efficiencies. ORC geothermal turbines as produced by ORMAT are hermetically
sealed and extremely reliable. They have units that have been running
continuously for 35 years or more -- maintenance free.

The price is right.

I was in touch with our one single sugar factory here in Belize in these
regards. But the engineers are dead set against it -- and instead went with
a plan using higher pressure fire tube boilers.

The refit with ORMATS works out to about $1500 US capital expenditure per
kwh produced.

The installing of new high pressure fire tube boilers costs $2640 per kwh.

And the efficiency after is 16% -- if they are lucky.

However -- the sugar industry here is in such serious decline they could
not raise the funding -- so the project is dead -- and the factory will
probably close soon.

I guess engineering has gone the same way as medicine -- both being to
"conventional" in thought processes and mentality -- and especially their
respective bureaucracies.

>
>3) I was in Brazil working on a sugar cane pellet gasifier several years
>ago. The cane pellets were the best biomass pellets I have ever seen. They
>cost $5/ton in Brazil. Unfortunately, the production at the plant I saw has
>been shut down. It was initially intended for making cattle feed. They
>boiled the trash for an hour to hydrolyse the cellulose/hemicellulose before
>pelletizing. I don't know whether this helped the densification process or
>not, but the pellets sure smelled lovely - vanillan I would guess.

This sounds very interesting Tom!!

>
>4) I have long suspected that the pellet industry does very little
>thinking. It takes >10,000 psi and 100 hp hr/ton to pelletize sawdust. But
>wood is cellular and strong. It should take much less to pelletize paper or
>cane trash because the cellular structure has already been collapsed. But
>the machines made for sawdust seem to take as much power for paper and
>bagasse as they do for sawdust. Is this flaw in the machine design?
>
>5) I am 15 lb lighter with a lower carb diet, and so are 10-40 Million
>other USAnians. What is this going to do to the sugar industry if it
>spreads worldwide.

Sugar cane produces excellent "food" -- but white sugar is deadly!!

Again -- it is the processing industry's mentality that is the factor in
the decline of this once great industry.

Raw cane sugar is know locally here as panela -- in India as Guri -- or
Jaggery.

This is a good food!! But no corporate brain-washed citizen in the modern
industrialized nations of this planet would ever consider using it as such!

Same problem as with hydrogenated over natural oils.

I worry Tom -- that the entire structure must be collapsed -- and maybe
from the ashes -- a second attempt will do things righter??

Say in 10,000 plus years or so -- eh??

Here is an url in regard to cane syrup --

http://www.steensyrup.com/

and another:

http://www.crosbys.com/what.htm

Where you have definitions of molasses.

There is much more to this subject -- basically -- cane juice can be
transmuted to many kinds of healthy foods -- starting with excellent cane
wine and cane vinegar.

But going further -- feed for animals to make meat.

As "perspective" -- AD -- you might find this interesting:

PREAMBLE:India produces 240 to 260 million tonnes of sugarcane,out of which
about 50% sugarcane is crushed in 400 giant sugar factories producing 11 to
12 million tonnes of white sulphitation sugar. In India,big sugar factories
use vacuum pan boiling system and sulphitation process which is highly
capital intensive having very complicated machinery and equipments.Our
sugar factories produce one more by-product unfit for human consumption
namely molasses.In India, over 4 million tonnes of molasses is produced
every year using half a million kg.of sulphur.Khandsari sugar factories,
too use sulphitation process and produce molasses.This quantity of molasses
is equivalent to providing 35 gms of jaggery everyday to all the 350
million children of India throughout the year.Hence such an enormous
quantity of high calory food is wasted by the use of sulphitation process.

**********************************

For the curious -- I have appended an analysis of cane syrup's food values.

Certainly -- a very rich source of micronutrients -- most of which are
lacking in present modern nations agricultural products -- and people are
paying for that in regards to deteriorating health!

So try some cane syrup in your bread Tom -- you'll feel better for it!!

If it was possible to re-educate the masses in the modern industrialized
nations in regard to healthy eating there would be no emerging global
energy crisis! 3rd world nations would be able to exist economically
furnishing the better foods -- as well.

Though in reality -- the USA can grow a lot of cane if it was so "motivated"!

Work out what 20% over all btu extraction to electrical energy supplies to
the power equation using available sugar production.

Roughly: for every pound sugar you have 12,000 btu of bagasse produced.

This figure might stand correcting -- any experts out there??

Course -- one has to convince sugar plant operators that:

#1: There presently existing low quality steam boilers can be ported to a
geothermal ORC turbine (at present the mind set says that is "impossible"
-- not in practice -- but due to "bureaucracy"!!)

#2: That there are already many large ORC turbines in operation all over
this plant in the geothermal power industry and they have proven extremely
reliable and efficient.

To date it has proven impossible to get any "engineer" in the sugar
industry to co-operate!!

Still -- it is a very real alternative -- an "immediate" source of
renewable energy at levels only the Gasification mail list could ever even
dream of!

Peter / Belize

>
>Lots to ponder here... Hope I get some good answers from our crop of
>experts.
>
>Onward and Upward,

Some times I think the mainspring on the get up and go machinery is all
broke down!!

Maybe next spin of this wheel??

This one has hopelessly bogged down!!

See you all in 10,000 or so years -- eh??

>
>TOM REED BEF
>

************appended***********

Syrups, table blends, cane
NDB No: 19361 Date: 3/6/2004 9:34
Measure: 100 gram
Gram weight (edible portion): 100.00 g
Refuse: 0%

Nutrient Units Value
Water g 24.20
Energy kcal 279
Energy kj 1167
Protein g 0.10
Total lipid (fat) g 0.10
Ash g 0.40
Carbohydrate, by difference g 75.20
Fiber, total dietary g 0.0
Calcium, Ca mg 13
Iron, Fe mg 0.82
Magnesium, Mg mg 4
Phosphorus, P mg 2
Potassium, K mg 34
Sodium, Na mg 104
Zinc, Zn mg 0.64
Copper, Cu mg 0.020
Manganese, Mn mg 0.569
Selenium, Se mcg 0.7
Vitamin C, total ascorbic acid mg 0.0
Thiamin mg 0.010
Riboflavin mg 0.010
Niacin mg 0.021
Pantothenic acid mg 0.025
Vitamin B-6 mg 0.008
Folate, total mcg 0
Folic acid mcg 0
Folate, food mcg 0
Folate, DFE mcg_DFE 0
Vitamin B-12 mcg 0.00
Vitamin A, IU IU 0
Vitamin A, RAE mcg_RAE 0
Retinol mcg 0
Vitamin E mg_ATE 0.000
Fatty acids, total saturated g 0.018
4:0 g 0.000
6:0 g 0.000
8:0 g 0.000
10:0 g 0.000
12:0 g 0.000
14:0 g 0.000
16:0 g 0.018
18:0 g 0.002
Fatty acids, total monounsaturated g 0.032
16:1 undifferentiated g 0.000
18:1 undifferentiated g 0.032
20:1 g 0.000
22:1 undifferentiated g 0.000
Fatty acids, total polyunsaturated g 0.050
18:2 undifferentiated g 0.050
18:3 undifferentiated g 0.000
18:4 g 0.000
20:4 undifferentiated g 0.000
20:5 n-3 g 0.000
22:5 n-3 g 0.000
22:6 n-3 g 0.000
Cholesterol mg 0

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sat Mar 6 11:20:16 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Root fuels
In-Reply-To: <005001c4037c$4dce4bd0$0c9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.102016.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:08:10AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> >
> I would certainly agree that this is the case where cat tails actually grow.
> What I see is that cat tails grow mostly on the wet perimiter of eutrophying
> ponds and lakes,

Not just the perimeter, but covering the entire lake in many cases.

> and not so much on the "inland side". These areas are
> relatively acid and infertile, and only very hardy plants can grow there. We
> do not have "acre expanses" of cat tails here. I can see your comments as
> being relevant to "outfall areas" where the marsh is fed a heavy nutrient
> load.

Well then you should make a trip to northern Minnesota and Wisconsin where
you'll find huge cattail marshes where there is no "heavy nutrient load" as
there are no farms or other nutrient sources.

> > >
> > > Harvesting seaweed from a beach is easy in comparison. I have harvested
> it
> > > simply with a wagon and manure fork. Cat tails are something else again.
> I
> > > can pull on the stems and either nothing budges, or the stem breaks off.
> A
> > > normal tractor would get "bogged down", and a lighter vehicle, with
> reduced
> > > ground pressures would probably either skid, or dig through the mat of
> > > vegetation and then get bogged down.
> >
> > You obviously didn't bother to read my previous post.
>
> Yes I did, and find that you seem to be addressing a very different issue.
> You are addressing the issue of capital intense ways of disposing of "pest
> cat tails." What I am attempting to address is the small scale harvesting of
> cat tails by people who need food or energy, and don't have the luxury of
> powered machinery. Bear in mind that this thread was originated basically as
> a way to find alternative starch sources for AD's digestor.

No, you didn't read them. I gave an example of a very simple tool which
has been used very effectively for a long, long time by many people for
harvesting aquatics, including cattails, by hand. I then also gave examples of
machinery for large scale harvesting, which you also totally ignored and wrote
some drivel about how impossible it would be to harvest them mechanically.
I've come to the conclusion that Peter was exactly right, Kevin, you
aren't at all interested in real discussion or real answers, you apparantly just
want to ask endless questions and promote endless arguements to waste everyone's
time.
But then I guess that's what email filters are for, eh?

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sat Mar 6 12:07:07 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Root fuels
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.130707.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Harmon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Root fuels

> On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:08:10AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> > >
.
> > What I see is that cat tails grow mostly on the wet perimiter of
eutrophying
> > ponds and lakes,
>
> Not just the perimeter, but covering the entire lake in many cases.
>
I'm simply telling you what I see. I have never seen a floating "cattail
mat" as you suggest.

At any rate, I am wondering if you ever tried to harvest a cattail root by
hand, and if so, how did you do it? I'm not interested in speculations on
what others might possibly have done, but rather, insights into what will
actually work on a practical basis.

On 5 March, 11:24, you said:
"... If forgot to also say that in the sense that the roots are to be used
by
individuals for either food or in a small digester, hand digging is entirely
suitable...."

and at 2:55 you said:
"... grub hoe, etc. How could we harvest the little darlings?
>
How about your hands, the way the indigs did it. Or simple rakes. The
"soil" is just loose muck. In fact, you'll find a lot of cattails are
growing in
floating mats, not even attached to the bottom at all...."

Harmon, it sure looks to me that you haven't any first hand experience
trying to dig the little darlings. And I still couldn't find anything
resembling a suggestion from you for a practical tool that would be helpful
to AD's people for harvesting cattails. "How about your hands..." is not
very helpful. Not at all helpful.

In the future, if you feel that you have to beat up on me, please do it
privately, so as to not trouble the List with your apparent need to cover
your tracks in left field.

Kevin

> > and not so much on the "inland side". These areas are
> > relatively acid and infertile, and only very hardy plants can grow
there. We
> > do not have "acre expanses" of cat tails here. I can see your comments
as
> > being relevant to "outfall areas" where the marsh is fed a heavy
nutrient
> > load.
>
> Well then you should make a trip to northern Minnesota and Wisconsin
where
> you'll find huge cattail marshes where there is no "heavy nutrient load"
as
> there are no farms or other nutrient sources.
>
>
> > > >
> > > > Harvesting seaweed from a beach is easy in comparison. I have
harvested
> > it
> > > > simply with a wagon and manure fork. Cat tails are something else
again.
> > I
> > > > can pull on the stems and either nothing budges, or the stem breaks
off.
> > A
> > > > normal tractor would get "bogged down", and a lighter vehicle, with
> > reduced
> > > > ground pressures would probably either skid, or dig through the mat
of
> > > > vegetation and then get bogged down.
> > >
> > > You obviously didn't bother to read my previous post.
> >
> > Yes I did, and find that you seem to be addressing a very different
issue.
> > You are addressing the issue of capital intense ways of disposing of
"pest
> > cat tails." What I am attempting to address is the small scale
harvesting of
> > cat tails by people who need food or energy, and don't have the luxury
of
> > powered machinery. Bear in mind that this thread was originated
basically as
> > a way to find alternative starch sources for AD's digestor.
>
>
> No, you didn't read them. I gave an example of a very simple tool
which
> has been used very effectively for a long, long time by many people for
> harvesting aquatics, including cattails, by hand. I then also gave
examples of
> machinery for large scale harvesting, which you also totally ignored and
wrote
> some drivel about how impossible it would be to harvest them mechanically.
> I've come to the conclusion that Peter was exactly right, Kevin, you
> aren't at all interested in real discussion or real answers, you
apparantly just
> want to ask endless questions and promote endless arguements to waste
everyone's
> time.
> But then I guess that's what email filters are for, eh?
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com

From a31ford at INETLINK.CA Sat Mar 6 12:21:11 2004
From: a31ford at INETLINK.CA (a31ford)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Root fuels
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.112111.0600.A31FORD@INETLINK.CA>

Mar 6/04 11:00am CST

Harmon, and Kevin,

Can I get into this discussion ???? (this is the only message I'll post
about this).

1) I somewhat know both you and Kevin from the postings I have seen of both
of you.

2) Is it JUST possible that BOTH of you are looking at things "From the End
of your Noses ?" ( In that, I will say as a local topographical location
standpoint???) (namely, from your comment "Well then you should make a trip
to northern Minnesota and Wisconsin") ???

3) IS it just the fact that this entire "argument" (It's NOT a discussion
anymore, in my eyes) is STRICTLY. location based now???

4) Would it be, in both of you, your ability's to "SAVE SERVER SPACE" and
continue this "Horse play" amongst your self's ?

5) I can foresee "REPP" shutting down this discussion SIMPLY, because of the
web traffic generated by this one simple post, getting WAY out of hand with
you guys quoting each other INSIDE the body of the message. (When did this
method of wasting web traffic start??? ) I for one was told Constantly that
doing the "In the body" thing is careless and wasteful of the provider's
bandwidth that is providing the posting service in the first place !

(it is much better to do "Date/Time" in a reply that has had the message
body stripped in the first place simply to save ON-Line costs to those that
are dial-up in different parts of the world, AND would like to actually
download (or retrieve) these HUGE posts as e-mails, on their fragile
connection in some deep jungle area, or such).

6) Can we get back to being adults please ?

Regards,
A Deep Rural Connection Person (Even if it is high-speed wireless, it still
costs)

Greg Manning
RURAL Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From: The Stoves Discussion List [mailto:STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG]On
Behalf Of Harmon Seaver
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 10:20 AM
To: STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Root fuels

<< Original Message stripped for size of document >>

From snkm at BTL.NET Sat Mar 6 13:28:12 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Harvesting Cattail and Calamus - in situ
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.122812.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 10:20 AM 3/6/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:08:10AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>
> No, you didn't read them. I gave an example of a very simple tool
which
>has been used very effectively for a long, long time by many people for
>harvesting aquatics, including cattails, by hand. I then also gave
examples of
>machinery for large scale harvesting, which you also totally ignored and
wrote
>some drivel about how impossible it would be to harvest them mechanically.
>

The roots of Cattail and Calamus are just about exactly the same. Even the
plants closely resemble each other.

So based on the above I feel my prior experience in harvesting Calamus is
valid for cattail.

First -- addressing the medicinal "preparation" -- AD might be interested
in experimenting.

In the north lands it is traditional to harvest at the end of summer --
when the plant has finished storing nutrition into the Root to winter over.

So yes -- "October" is just about right. For calamus -- the late winter --
early spring -- is also acceptable. The medicinal properties are just as
effective them -- if not more.

Calamus root is like any root in that is stores best "alive" -- living. You
get at least one year -- sometimes two or more -- if you put in a freezer
-- a lot more.

You harvest the root in as long sections as possible. Both Cattail and
Calamus are like long thin cucumber -- and snap off easy. So one has to
take a sharp knife to run up and down -- around the main root -- to cut off
all the hair roots -- so that a single root of respectable length can be
"extracted". This in cold water/mud -- and done with precision and patience!

After we have finished harvesting our amount -- the roots must be carefully
washed.

These roots are then partially dried -- whole -- then put up rolled in paper.

Or -- in to a freezer -- where they will lay dormant for years -- but still
alive.

When one is ready to use some calamus -- a piece of root 2 inches long is
cut off and split into four sections. A section then is about 1/4 inch in
diameter -- or a little less.

I used to put such in my shirt pocket -- and simply bite off a very small
amount and chew. Probably much less than 1/10 of a gram at a time.

so one little sick lasted a week or more.

The root tastes like strong "perfumed" soap -- and may take some time
getting used to. But once you are used to it -- it is very nice.

By the way -- this is the world's best cure for bad breath!

It is also the sure fire method to cure smoking of cigarettes!! Every time
you feel the urge to smoke one -- chew a small part of this root.

After a while of chewing Calamus -- say one week -- if you try to smoke a
cigarette you will have a gagging reaction -- nicotine and calamus do not
mix. You have to wait a few days after stopping calamus before you can
smoke a cigarette!!

(Now -- one would believe a trillion dollar per year industry lies in that
knowledge -- eh)

Now -- back to harvesting. I once ran into a small patch not 100 feet in
back of a house. So I asked the owner if I could try an experiment. He said
OK.

I brought a long length of garden hose and hooked that up to his water line
-- say 40 PSI pressure -- and hosed off the calamus roots in situ.

This made harvesting after extremely easy!! I am sure this will apply to
cattails as well.

So Kevin -- I would suggest a small gasoline powered water pump on floats.
Say 100 PSI pressure. With a steel pipe nozzle so you can poke around the
root masses. And then you will find you can just harvest as much root as
you want very quickly and conveniently.

If it is a solid bog of cattail -- as Harmon describes -- and as indeed as
it exists here in Belize -- you might have to clear a spot -- as in a
shallow well -- to float your pump on. Of course -- once harvesting is
advanced and root taken out -- you'll have plenty of such spots.

And Kevin -- please -- no questions -- just further info --

Such as you finding where such a small pump can be had -- you trying it --
and you reporting back how it works.

I would still advise using a sharp knife to separate mother root from
rootlets. Take just the big roots -- leave the small rootlets in the muck.
They are not of value -- and they probably will sprout out new plants.

It is actually easier to cut the rootlets where they lay than on a long --
fragile -- root -- after.

Harmon -- exactly how does on go about brewing a must from cattail root??
Boiling??

Then Kevin should get a small four stroke motor that runs on hydrous
alcohol (strong-rum) so produced for running his pump -- he could then be
energy self sufficient.

Peter

From xcevallos at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 6 13:56:13 2004
From: xcevallos at YAHOO.COM (=?iso-8859-1?q?Xavier=20Cevallos?=)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Hi from Ingenieria Sin Fronteras-Ecuador (Guayaquil-Ecuador)
In-Reply-To: <000e01c4039f$6c40b580$0200a8c0@a31server>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.125613.0600.XCEVALLOS@YAHOO.COM>

March 6

Dear Stoves Discussion List:

Please receive our best regards. We are
Ingenieria Sin Fronteras-Ecuador (Enginners Without
Borders-Ecuador)

Our group is an Ecuadorian NGO that is working
in the use of renewable energies (An others
too)being our objective to increase the quality of
life to the ecuadorian rural population.

As we are located in Guayaquil Ecuador we would
like to ask if there are many others Stove
list members from our area or from latin
america.

For us the use of biomass is a very important
issue as the country is being deforestated
(What is still left....!!!) not just for fuel
but also for other economical realities.

The Ecuadorian gobernment subsidizes the price
of LPG; by pressure of the World Bank and
other lender institutions sooner or later this
subsidizing will have to go. The container
of cooking gas cost 1.60 to 2 dollars depending
of where you buy it and we know the real
price is in about 6 dollars.

We forsee that for cooking efficiently in
some rural areas the biomass stoves could be
used but here they are not known.

Please advice us if there are any latin
american experiences on the use of this stoves
and also experiencies in other part of the
worl in their use propagation and in how does
the normal public (may be african or
southamerican) regards the use of them in the
long run.

Any ideas, comments, annectdotes or else are
wellcome.

Best Regards

Xavier Cevallos
xcevallos@yahoo.com
ingenieriasinfronterasecuador@yahoo.com
Director
Ingenieria Sin Fronteras-Ecuador
Cordoba 812 10th floor Office 2
P.O.Box 09 012 4894
Guayaquil Ecuador
Southamerica

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Informaci?n de Estados Unidos y Am?rica Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias.
Vis?tanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com

From aes at BITSTREAM.NET Sat Mar 6 11:53:08 2004
From: aes at BITSTREAM.NET (AES)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Banglasdesh
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.105308.0600.AES@BITSTREAM.NET>

Is there a list with names, contact information (emails, snail mail, phone?)
of all those who attended the ETHOS conference in Seattle? If so, where can
I find it?

Thanks,

Bruce Stahlberg

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:29 PM
Subject: [STOVES] Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Banglasdesh

Stovers:

Please find Jonathan Rouse's paper, "Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for
Bangladesh" in pdf format on the Stoves Website at
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Rouse/rouiap.pdf

Regards,

Tom Miles

From rmiranda at INET.COM.BR Sun Mar 7 02:25:22 2004
From: rmiranda at INET.COM.BR (Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Hi from Ingenieria Sin Fronteras-Ecuador (Guayaquil-Ecuador)
In-Reply-To: <20040306185613.78665.qmail@web40808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.7.MAR.2004.042522.0300.RMIRANDA@INET.COM.BR>

Estimado Xavier;

yes we work in LA, Central America, Bolivia and here in Brazil. Take a look
at our site www.ecofogao.com.br to see the Ecostove being commercialized in
Brazil. Also at stoves web site you will find lots of info regarding
stoves promotion in LA.

saludos

Rogerio

At 12:56 p.m. 06/03/04 -0600, Xavier Cevallos wrote:
>March 6
>
>
>
>Dear Stoves Discussion List:
>
>Please receive our best regards. We are
>Ingenieria Sin Fronteras-Ecuador (Enginners Without
>Borders-Ecuador)
>
>Our group is an Ecuadorian NGO that is working
> in the use of renewable energies (An others
>too)being our objective to increase the quality of
> life to the ecuadorian rural population.
>
>As we are located in Guayaquil Ecuador we would
> like to ask if there are many others Stove
>list members from our area or from latin
>america.
>
>For us the use of biomass is a very important
>issue as the country is being deforestated
>(What is still left....!!!) not just for fuel
>but also for other economical realities.
>
>The Ecuadorian gobernment subsidizes the price
>of LPG; by pressure of the World Bank and
>other lender institutions sooner or later this
>subsidizing will have to go. The container
>of cooking gas cost 1.60 to 2 dollars depending
>of where you buy it and we know the real
>price is in about 6 dollars.
>
>We forsee that for cooking efficiently in
>some rural areas the biomass stoves could be
>used but here they are not known.
>
>Please advice us if there are any latin
>american experiences on the use of this stoves
>and also experiencies in other part of the
>worl in their use propagation and in how does
>the normal public (may be african or
>southamerican) regards the use of them in the
>long run.
>
>Any ideas, comments, annectdotes or else are
>wellcome.
>
>
>Best Regards
>
>Xavier Cevallos
>xcevallos@yahoo.com
>ingenieriasinfronterasecuador@yahoo.com
>Director
>Ingenieria Sin Fronteras-Ecuador
>Cordoba 812 10th floor Office 2
>P.O.Box 09 012 4894
>Guayaquil Ecuador
>Southamerica
>
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Informaci?n de Estados Unidos y Am?rica Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias.
>Vis?tanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sat Mar 6 14:36:35 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Harvesting Cattail and Calamus - in situ
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.153635.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Peter

...del...
>
> I brought a long length of garden hose and hooked that up to his water
line
> -- say 40 PSI pressure -- and hosed off the calamus roots in situ.
>
> This made harvesting after extremely easy!! I am sure this will apply to
> cattails as well.
>
> So Kevin -- I would suggest a small gasoline powered water pump on floats.
> Say 100 PSI pressure. With a steel pipe nozzle so you can poke around the
> root masses. And then you will find you can just harvest as much root as
> you want very quickly and conveniently.
>
Thanks very much for your very practical solution!! I am quite confident
that it would work very well.

> And Kevin -- please -- no questions -- just further info --
>
> Such as you finding where such a small pump can be had -- you trying it --
> and you reporting back how it works.
>
I happen to have three perfectly suitable pumps on hand right at the moment.
They are 2 cycle, weigh 35 pounds, and I was selling them as fire pumps:
they will throw a 23 USGPM stream of water through a standard 1/2" nozzle a
distance of 70'. A larger nozzle will give a larger flow at lower pressure,
and should be much better, in terms of loosening and flushing around the
root.

Sorry that I can't run a test harvest for you now... everything is frozen
solid here now. :-) However, I could run a test next summer. There is a
flock of cattails at the head of the pond in front of my place. I already
have such a pump configured on a pontoon boat, and use the jet effect to
propell it. I could jet over to the cattail site and attach a hose to the
propulsion jet, dig cattails, and then barge them back home.
(If anyone wants a picture of the Jet Boat parked at the shore, please
e-mail me.)

> I would still advise using a sharp knife to separate mother root from
> rootlets. Take just the big roots -- leave the small rootlets in the muck.
> They are not of value -- and they probably will sprout out new plants.
>
Yes indeed...
>
> Then Kevin should get a small four stroke motor that runs on hydrous
> alcohol (strong-rum) so produced for running his pump -- he could then be
> energy self sufficient.
>
Cellulose doesn't ferment to alcohol without enzymatic hydrolysis. I am
guessing that starch would require a similar pretreatment to yield a
fermentable sugar.

Thanks again for your very good suggestion!!

Kindest regards,

Kevin

> Peter

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sat Mar 6 15:50:04 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Root fuels
In-Reply-To: <009201c4039e$8cbe14c0$0c9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.145004.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 01:07:07PM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>
> At any rate, I am wondering if you ever tried to harvest a cattail root by
> hand, and if so, how did you do it?

Yes, by simply reaching over the side of the canoe, sticking my hand down
into the muck, grabbing ahold and yanking them out. And also by ripping them out
with the simple long-tined rake I mentioned before. You can collect all you want
very rapidly and easily. As, I am sure, the native americans did, since they
were a widely used staple of indig diet for many thousands of years. They
harvested cattail roots in goodly quantities, dried them, and ground them into
flour. I'm not sure if they used any tools in prehistory, but I do know that
since contact with euros they use the tool I described previously.

> I'm not interested in speculations on
> what others might possibly have done, but rather, insights into what will
> actually work on a practical basis.
>
> >
> How about your hands, the way the indigs did it. Or simple rakes. The
> "soil" is just loose muck. In fact, you'll find a lot of cattails are
> growing in
> floating mats, not even attached to the bottom at all...."
>
> Harmon, it sure looks to me that you haven't any first hand experience

Oh, but I have. My family lived way, way back in the wilderness for 15 years,
and we have a great deal of experience with gathering wild edibles.

> trying to dig the little darlings. And I still couldn't find anything
> resembling a suggestion from you for a practical tool that would be helpful
> to AD's people for harvesting cattails. "How about your hands..." is not
> very helpful. Not at all helpful.

I previously described the tool most often used, other than hands, to gather
aquatic roots of various kinds -- a simple rake made from either a pitchfork or
a digging fork with the tines bent at a 90 degree angle. Some people made even
better tools of the same ilk from scratch. I got one from an old timer made by a
blacksmith that was more effective with tines almost like curled fingers -- not
sure if we have it here somewhere or it it burned up in our cabin.

>
> In the future, if you feel that you have to beat up on me, please do it
> privately, so as to not trouble the List with your apparent need to cover
> your tracks in left field.

"cover my tracks"? You certainly have earned your place in my
killfile. PLONK!

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sat Mar 6 16:04:06 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Root fuels
In-Reply-To: <000e01c4039f$6c40b580$0200a8c0@a31server>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.150406.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 11:21:11AM -0600, a31ford wrote:
> 5) I can foresee "REPP" shutting down this discussion SIMPLY, because of the
> web traffic generated by this one simple post, getting WAY out of hand with
> you guys quoting each other INSIDE the body of the message. (When did this
> method of wasting web traffic start??? ) I for one was told Constantly that
> doing the "In the body" thing is careless and wasteful of the provider's
> bandwidth that is providing the posting service in the first place !

Uh, no, it is, in fact, the most proper way to conduct email discussions. As
long as you trim the non-essential parts of the previous message, as you will
notice that I'm always very careful to do.

>
> (it is much better to do "Date/Time" in a reply that has had the message
> body stripped in the first place simply to save ON-Line costs to those that
> are dial-up in different parts of the world, AND would like to actually
> download (or retrieve) these HUGE posts as e-mails, on their fragile
> connection in some deep jungle area, or such).

Text messages, even fairly long ones, are actually pretty tiny. It's
insignificant. Pictures, graphics, and other attachments are the problem, not
pure, non-html, ascii text.

>
> 6) Can we get back to being adults please ?

I don't think that my objecting, as others have, to Kevin's deliberate
obtuseness which amounts to baiting as being anything other than adult. If you
look back through the archives you'll see him doing the same thing over and
over, as Peter noted a week or so ago.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From kmbryden at IASTATE.EDU Sat Mar 6 16:00:22 2004
From: kmbryden at IASTATE.EDU (Mark Bryden)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Banglasdesh
In-Reply-To: <000e01c403ae$66078c20$d3b50443@D289YG11>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.150022.0600.KMBRYDEN@IASTATE.EDU>

Hi Bruce,

Due to issues of spam and automated harvesting of emails and contact
information. There is no centralized online list of contact information for
ETHOS participants.

There is a list of the members of each ETHOS committee at
http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/~kmbryden/ETHOS2004committees.pdf

Also those on the ETHOS list you can use the standard listserve command who
to get the emails of other listserv members. Also Amy can provide you with
a complete list of attendants and members.

We are working on putting all the presentations from the recent conference
on line and on disk but I'm guessing it will take another month or so
before this is complete.

Mark

At 10:53 AM 3/6/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>Is there a list with names, contact information (emails, snail mail, phone?)
>of all those who attended the ETHOS conference in Seattle? If so, where can
>I find it?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bruce Stahlberg
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>
>To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
>Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:29 PM
>Subject: [STOVES] Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Banglasdesh
>
>
>Stovers:
>
>Please find Jonathan Rouse's paper, "Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for
>Bangladesh" in pdf format on the Stoves Website at
>http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Rouse/rouiap.pdf
>
>Regards,
>
>Tom Miles

___________________________________________________________
Kenneth "Mark" Bryden, Ph.D. Assistant Professor
kmbryden@iastate.edu Iowa State University
ph: 515-294-3891 3030 Black Engineering Bldg
fax: 515-294-3261 Ames, Iowa 50011-2161

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sat Mar 6 16:28:36 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Harvesting Cattail and Calamus - in situ
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20040306122810.00995100@btlmail.btl.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.152836.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 12:28:12PM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
> At 10:20 AM 3/6/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>
> >On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:08:10AM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:

(snip)

> In the north lands it is traditional to harvest at the end of summer --
> when the plant has finished storing nutrition into the Root to winter over.
>
That's the optimum, what you would do if engaged in commecial harvest, but
not what people do at all for simple gathering. After all, there's an endless
amount of cattails, no point at trying to maximise the yield per square foot
when you just need a little food. Mid or late Summer is fine.

(snip)

>
> Now -- back to harvesting. I once ran into a small patch not 100 feet in
> back of a house. So I asked the owner if I could try an experiment. He said
> OK.
>
> I brought a long length of garden hose and hooked that up to his water line
> -- say 40 PSI pressure -- and hosed off the calamus roots in situ.
>
> This made harvesting after extremely easy!! I am sure this will apply to
> cattails as well.

Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about before --- a water powered
dredge. And then you have another high-pressure hose running into the lower end
of a bigger (say 6"-8" or more) hose to suck the roots up and onto the
barge. One hose blasts through the muck and breaks up the roots, the other sucks
everything up and onto the deck and dumps it all onto a screen so the muck
drains back into the water and there you have the already (mostly) washed roots.
You can even buy these sorts of dredges ready made -- gold prospectors use
them.

(snip)

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Sat Mar 6 16:21:48 2004
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Banglasdesh
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.132148.0800.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Bruce,

So far I don't see anything on the ETHOS website.

I'll have to refer you to Amy Holland at Iowa State University (reading in
copy) and ETHOS.

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "AES" <aes@bitstream.net>
To: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Banglasdesh

> Is there a list with names, contact information (emails, snail mail,
phone?)
> of all those who attended the ETHOS conference in Seattle? If so, where
can
> I find it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bruce Stahlberg
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:29 PM
> Subject: [STOVES] Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Banglasdesh
>
>
> Stovers:
>
> Please find Jonathan Rouse's paper, "Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for
> Bangladesh" in pdf format on the Stoves Website at
> http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Rouse/rouiap.pdf
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Miles
>
>
>

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sat Mar 6 17:30:44 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Root fuels
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.183044.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

> > At any rate, I am wondering if you ever tried to harvest a cattail root
by
> > hand, and if so, how did you do it?
>
> Yes, by simply reaching over the side of the canoe, sticking my hand
down
> into the muck, grabbing ahold and yanking them out.

Can't do that with the Cattails that grow here. You must be talking about a
different kind of Cattail. Here, the base of the plant is above water level.

Kevin

From snkm at BTL.NET Sat Mar 6 18:01:17 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Harvesting Cattail and Calamus - in situ
Message-ID: <SAT.6.MAR.2004.170117.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 03:28 PM 3/6/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 12:28:12PM -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:

> That's the optimum, what you would do if engaged in commecial harvest, but
>not what people do at all for simple gathering. After all, there's an endless
>amount of cattails, no point at trying to maximise the yield per square foot
>when you just need a little food. Mid or late Summer is fine.
>

Good to know -- with the Calamus we had no choice -- it was about stronger
medicinal values at that time.

Here in Belize -- is should be anytime for cattail.

>> This made harvesting after extremely easy!! I am sure this will apply to
>> cattails as well.
>
> Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about before --- a water powered
>dredge. And then you have another high-pressure hose running into the
lower end
>of a bigger (say 6"-8" or more) hose to suck the roots up and onto the
>barge. One hose blasts through the muck and breaks up the roots, the other
sucks
>everything up and onto the deck and dumps it all onto a screen so the muck
>drains back into the water and there you have the already (mostly) washed
roots.
> You can even buy these sorts of dredges ready made -- gold prospectors use
>them.
>

Certainly -- a suction dredge would clean out a cattail stand in no time
flat. And the ones operating here also have a high pressure probe to
pre-loosen hard bottom soil.

Peter

>--
>Harmon Seaver
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Mar 6 20:39:24 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Buffalo gourd
Message-ID: <SUN.7.MAR.2004.070924.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

I met somebody who tried using buffalo gourd as fuel
in a cookstove in a traditional Indian cookstove without
chimney. He reported that his kitchen was filled with bitter smell and even
the sorghum tortillas roasted on open fire tasted bitter.
A.D.Karve

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Mon Mar 8 01:10:25 2004
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Gassification list details
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.011025.0500.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

John,

You can view all the Bioenergy lists at http://listserv.repp.org/archives/

From rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG Mon Mar 8 01:15:05 2004
From: rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Buffalo gourd
In-Reply-To: <000001c40443$a3c170e0$b05441db@adkarve>
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.081505.0200.RSTANLEY@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>

Dear AD,
Your recent message spoke of the difficulty briquetting biomass.
It made me realise that our message about low-pressure wet process is
still not out yet: One does do not need high pressure to briquette or
even pelletise biomass fuel: You need only chop then ret the material
and recombine it in plain stream or tap water. The fibers do the work
of binding, if you get the timing and the blends right.

The process rquires only the labor of 6 persons who produce fuel for
fifty to seventy five families per day--at a cost of their daily wages
plus perhaps as much as 10% (this will get you to within about 90%
accuracy for estimating the viability of the process and product in the
local fuel market).

This daily effort on the basic hand press, produces up to 750 briquettes
a day. Efficiency: we find that almost universally over say a tropical
wet to dryland savanna and three continents the consumption rate is 2. 5
per person per day(+/-0.5 briquette). This amounts to a consumption
only about 300 grams of biomass per person per day. The international
figure for wood fuel is 1.2Kg per person per day. This seemingly
ludicrous comparison is explained by the hollow core which effectively
makes the briquette an improved stove in itself: (viz., Insulated
combustion chamber / mini chimney). The hole makes a big difference in
the usual unimproved stove cooking environment. I therefore hesitate to
be drawn into the argument of weight per energy output because of the
efficiency of the burn in practice varies so much in the field.

This energy input is orders of magnitude less than what Tom Reid's
indicates about mechanised pelletising(at 100 hp per ton hour of
product) and I suspect a fraction of the smaller ram or augur dry
presses which operate at 13 Kw outputting, about 800 kg a day. This
output is realised however only when the augurs are not being repaired,
or one of the three phases of electricity is off, and all the dryers are
all working. (I have searched far and wide for working plants in east
and central africa and certain parts of Mexico and Latin America and
have found most out of operation for the above reasons

High pressure densification is hardly the only solution for briquetting
especially in grid energy and unemployment-starved, dispursed market
environments of the developing nations. It seem suited only to sepected
urban environments mostly in the energy "rich" nations.

We use the biomass in situ. Compared to the charring process, there is
no energy wasted energy (however cleanly the gas may be flared off ).
In many cases some dive into the technology because if a villager can do
it, it must be simple right? Many as well have flopped and we have born
the brunt of this many times on this wesbsite. If however, you go
through the real steps and get the proper training, You discover what so
many have: That it is viable conomic highly efficient and if you have
done your basic market homework, income generating where income
generation and meaningful job creation, is critical to development.

Sure a charred product would by defnintion, have a higher carbon content
and produce a hotter fuel per unit weight, but we have just as well,
seen abundant examples of the use of the waste from charcoal making and
distribution (up to 25% of the total charcoal produced) blended with
fibrous ag residues in the wet process with some pretty astounding
results which will equal and often outpreforrm carbonised pellets or
solid core logs of equal volume and density. Stillit can be argued that
in some environments the biomass resources are so abundant that why not
char them to create a more dense fuel ? Our process as well requires
water and sacrifices about half a liter per eash consummer served with
the briquettes.

The wet low pressure briquettingof biomass is in reality but another
good choice: I would in sum, kindly offer it for your and other readers'
inclusion in the list of possibilities.

Kind regards,

Richard Stanley

adkarve wrote:

>I met somebody who tried using buffalo gourd as fuel
>in a cookstove in a traditional Indian cookstove without
>chimney. He reported that his kitchen was filled with bitter smell and even
>the sorghum tortillas roasted on open fire tasted bitter.
>A.D.Karve
>
>
>
>
>

From biomass at REIO.IE Mon Mar 8 04:17:02 2004
From: biomass at REIO.IE (Aine Carr)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: STOVES Digest - 29 Feb 2004 to 1 Mar 2004 (#2004-53)
In-Reply-To: <200403020501.i2251tv07380@ns1.repp.org>
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.091702.0000.BIOMASS@REIO.IE>

I am out of the office from March 2-5 inclusive
For general enquiries contact our office at +353 23 29146 or email
renewables@reio.ie
I will contact you on my return

Regards

Aine Carr
Sustainable Energy Ireland
Renewable Energy Information Office

From K.Prasad at TUE.NL Mon Mar 8 10:30:12 2004
From: K.Prasad at TUE.NL (Prasad, K.)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: sustainability of microenterprises
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.163012.0100.K.PRASAD@TUE.NL>

Dear Stoves folks

The discussion on the sustainability of microenterprises has attracted my
attention to no end. I frankly didn't know where to start, given that some
of the discussions expressed a diversity of opinions. Long live the stove
discussions list. It is an expression of democracy, though I don't buy
democracy a la George W. Bush.

Where to start. The temptation is strong to go into a long autobiographical
note. I will resist it.

Crispin has been primarily concerned with a small producer "assembling" a
stove from easily accessible "parts" locally - never mind whether they were
produced locally, say a village where the producer lives and works. If one
is permitted call this a "system", it will be "sustainable" as long as the
parts are readily available and the market for the product continues to
exist. The catch here is that in most cases the product does not necessarily
improve with time. That has been the problem with the traditional stoves,
say the "open fire". To me a microenterprise can cater to a set of clientele
on the basis of the product he/she is producing for only so long. With time,
heshe needs to improve the product in terms of performance, ease of use, and
possibly even its attractiveness. All this requires some sort of R&D. I find
it difficult to believe that a microenterprise - really a one-person outfit
- has the skill, finance, etc. to handle this. Even a modest R&D outfit
requires far too many resources. Such an outfit needs to service a large
number of microenterprises. Much of the "appropriate technology" talk has
paid very little attention to this aspect of the problem.

Apparently this was attempted in the Government of India programme on
stoves. From what I have earlier heard from Karves and again in Seattle, it
has not worked. There needs to be much more work on the back-up systems that
provide improved tools, help with marketing, and needless to say R&D
support. The last need not necessarily come from a national/international
lab. But some sort of an on-going involvement by an "institution" that
concerns itself with providing some of the inputs mentioned above.

Prasad

-Original Message-----
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott [mailto:crispin@newdawn.sz]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 7:17 AM
To: STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: Re: [STOVES] sustainability of microenterprises

Dear Stovers and Business Promoters

Following on from the many contributors to this important discussion, I
again pick up a sentence from Dr Karve (with whom I agree wholeheartedly
on this topic) written in his message of 29 February:

If you accept that 'raw materials' might be traded over a wide area and
in different stages of finish, then I have made the point.

What I am advocating is an omnivorous approach to stove dissemination.
Our expansion models should allow for all combinations of distribution
of stoves, parts, materials and training.

The best opportunities for formal and informal sector stove
co-production are emerging from this paradigm.

Regards
Crispin

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Mon Mar 8 17:13:09 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Biomass vs "LPG" fuel
In-Reply-To: <000601c4033e$378b7ac0$e49dfea9@home>
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.161309.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

At 07:44 AM 3/6/04 +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
>Dear Stovers
>snip
>Paul - have you tried dry dung as a gasifier fuel? I think it make a
>good gas flame. You may have to preheat the primary air, or in your
>stove make it a bit of a retort. I think you had some preheating on the
>model you had in Kirkland, right?
I have successfully burned cow dung. But it needs to be rather "fresh" and
then dried. Some older dung from an American cattle feed-lot was lousy
fuel. I figure that it must have already given up much of its fuel
"goodness" into the air.

And yes, at Kirkland (Seattle ETHOS meeting) one stove of mine had
preheated air both primary and secondary. NOTE: Someone(s) at ETHOS
pledged to do some testing on the impact of pre-heating the air. Was that
Dean Still and Crispin and ??? I would really like to know. Tom Reed has
stated preheated air has little impact on the combustion, but helps save
the metal by cooling one side.

Snip

> I am
>preparing to make a presentation in JHB next week of three new stoves,
>two of which are completely new.

Crispin, please tell us what conference / meeting that will be (ProBEC??)
and about your new stoves.

Snip

>By the way, I feel that turning a stove down and keeping a clean burn is
>one of the bigger challenges, certainly harder than burning multiple
>fuels and making it cheap to build.

BUT, if the fuel is truly waste (except to plow back into the soil) and
very abundant, then let the fire run hot for a clean burn, and just set the
pot to the side of the plancha or flow of heat so that it will not
burn. Besides, the surplus heat might be well used for heating water,
etc. Note that this does NOT refer to wood-fuels.

snip

>As I mentioned in my talk in Kirkland, the long term future of stoves
>is, to me, the development of small hot fires using small amounts of
>wood.

Fine, but better if not "wood", in many parts of the developing world.

>I would rate coconut husks as the most difficult to burn.

I can agree. But I had one nice coconut husk burner in Maputo,
Mozambique. Updraft top-lit gasifier, large. Very good results. Problem
(hard to believe) is that Maputo is about 200+ miles south of the major
coconut growing areas, so I did not have a plentiful supply of the
husks!!!! (Competition for the husks: used in stuffing in
furniture!!!) I await the chance to be in a coconut-husk-plentiful area.

Anyone else with success stories about coconut husks as fuels (not the hard
shells, that are famous as great burning material)??

Paul

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Mon Mar 8 18:38:27 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Harvesting Cattail and Calamus - in situ
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20040306122810.00995100@btlmail.btl.net>
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.173827.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Peter and all,

To assist my smoking friends/relatives to break the habit, where can I get
calamus? My local healthfood store does not have it, and wonders if it
might be available as a supplement, but not likely to get as a root. (I
live in central Illinois, USA.)

Anyone know about this?

Paul [ who MIGHT harvest a little if he could find it ;-)) ]

At 12:28 PM 3/6/04 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:

snip
>The root tastes like strong "perfumed" soap -- and may take some time
>getting used to. But once you are used to it -- it is very nice.
>
>By the way -- this is the world's best cure for bad breath!
>
>It is also the sure fire method to cure smoking of cigarettes!! Every time
>you feel the urge to smoke one -- chew a small part of this root.
>
>After a while of chewing Calamus -- say one week -- if you try to smoke a
>cigarette you will have a gagging reaction -- nicotine and calamus do not
>mix. You have to wait a few days after stopping calamus before you can
>smoke a cigarette!!

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Mon Mar 8 18:55:33 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Harvesting Cattail and Calamus - in situ
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040308172809.02403930@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.175533.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 05:38:27PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
> Peter and all,
>
> To assist my smoking friends/relatives to break the habit, where can I get
> calamus? My local healthfood store does not have it, and wonders if it
> might be available as a supplement, but not likely to get as a root. (I
> live in central Illinois, USA.)
>
> Anyone know about this?
>

Here's a few places:

http://basementshaman.com/accalcalroot.html
http://www.alchemy-works.com/herb_calamus.html
http://www.viable-herbal.com/herbdesc/1calamus.htm
http://www.kalyx.com/store/proddetail.cfm/ItemID/15404.0/CategoryID/13000.0/SubCatID/2855.0/file.htm

This last one is an extract, the others roots. If the kalyx link doesn't work
for you, try just http://www.kalyx.com and searching for calamus. It's worth
looking at the site just to read about their take on calamus.

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Mon Mar 8 19:30:06 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: Starting fires with non-edible combustible oils Was: Re:
[STOVES] One candle of heat
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.183006.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Stovers:

On 25 Feb I posted the message below. Really, not any replies. We had
some discussion about bio-oils as FUELS, but not as "starters" of fires of
other materials. I am sure that turpentine and "mineral spirits" and paint
thinner could be used.

But I was hoping for some plant that is or could be grown locally so the
local people could gather, crush, squeeze, press or somehow get a fluid (or
solid) that could be used as a starter, that is, ignited with one match and
to burn for 30 to 60 seconds with a nice flame.

I am NOT looking for oils, etc for "lighting, as in illumination". But
for lighting a fire, as in a fire starter.

Gene Schultz has sent me some photocopy materials, but at first glance the
closest reference is to oils for lighting = illumination.

I am thinking of experimenting with some mixtures, such as corn oil mixed
with kerosene.

Any assistance will be appreciated.

Paul

******* old message is below ****************
Ron mentioned this topic (below) and I hope that someone can provide some
leads.

In the case of the top-lit gasifiers, I find it important to have a
conveniently volatile "starter" to get the initial fire (for pyrolysis)
going. I cannot directly pour on a liquid, because it will drip too low
into the fuel bed. But I can put the liquid onto something (I have used
wood chips, corn cobs, and char-pieces very successfully), and then place
that into the top of the fuel to be lighted easily. A single match was
usually enough to start my stove.

Among my successful experiments:

1. Citronella (Tiki-torch fuel) oil.

2. Kerosene (parafin, in many countries) (but use VERY sparingly or you
will get black soot in the initial flames until the kerosene is gone.)

3. Alcohol (95% and better)

4. Gel-fuel (can even be squirted on directly because it does not drip.)

(5. Some regular cooking oil and meat fat did NOT give me as good of a
start-up flame as I wanted).

:-)) I remember chatting with Crispin (maybe 2 years ago) about lighting
my early stoves with citronella in wood chips, and he (jokingly) said that
I "cheated" with the starting of the fire because rural folk would not have
such volatile substances for fire starting.

So, if a sufficient number and variety of "starting materials" can be named
(and have low cost and wide geographic distribution), then all of us could
have easier ways to start our fires (even Crispin :-)) ).

Paul

At 09:11 PM 2/24/04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
> 2. Back to the world of "candles", I hope we can hear from some of the
>few "stoves" list members who have in the past talked about the benefits of
>using seed oils - for both lighting and cooking (and maybe together). I
>think there are some natural "seed" products which are solid at room
>temperature - but many/most are I guess liquid. There are many non-edible
>oils that can be combusted very cleanly and come at low or no cost (if
>picked in the field).
>
>Ron

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Mar 8 09:19:43 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: briquettes from retted biomass
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.194943.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Thanks Richard for reminding me of the process so successfully being used by you. I tried your process once but the briquettes failed to burn, because most probably the process of decomposition had progressed too far and that there was hardly any carbon left in the biomass to burn. Do you decompose the entire biomass or do you decompose only a part of the biomass and mix it with undecomposed biomass before briquetting it? We have now acquired a heavier briquette extruder, and with a proper die, it should not be difficult for us to produce a hollow briquette with it. You also mentioned that the biomass has to be chopped up or shredded. What kind of equipment do you use for it? Do your briquettes burn as cleanly as high quality charcoal? Recently, in Seattle, I saw a number of stoves which were claimed by their respective inventers to be cleanly burning, but most of them (i.e. stoves) produced a bit of smoke (more than good quality charcoal).
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: richard stanley

From cree at DOWCO.COM Mon Mar 8 19:56:16 2004
From: cree at DOWCO.COM (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: if biomass has to be chopped up or shredded
In-Reply-To: <000001c4056f$dc59d500$1d5541db@adkarve>
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.165616.0800.CREE@DOWCO.COM>

We have a machine manufactured by my associates, in Canada, which uses
Kinetic energy to smash, and shred, and dry biomass
(wood chips, palm oil bunches, hemp, into various particle sizes.etc.,)
these I have personally seen.
for more info contact me off list.
John Olsen
Heatlog Industries.

From robdeutsch at ONLINE.COM.KH Mon Mar 8 20:18:00 2004
From: robdeutsch at ONLINE.COM.KH (Robert Deutsch)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:57 2004
Subject: if biomass has to be chopped up or shredded
Message-ID: <MON.8.MAR.2004.171800.0800.ROBDEUTSCH@ONLINE.COM.KH>

Dear John,

I have build several chopper/shredder for reducing size of bio-mass (coconut
husks, sugar cane waste, yard trimmings, kitchen and market waste) and
mixing the materials for composting. Last model has been very successful,
running about an hour per day, everyday for the last 3 years without any
problems.

I would be interested to learn about the units you have built. Are any
photo's available?

Robert Deutsch, Advisor
Community Sanitation and Recycling Organization
Phnom Penh, Kingdom of Cambodia

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Olsen" <cree@DOWCO.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 4:56 PM
Subject: [STOVES] if biomass has to be chopped up or shredded

> We have a machine manufactured by my associates, in Canada, which uses
> Kinetic energy to smash, and shred, and dry biomass
> (wood chips, palm oil bunches, hemp, into various particle sizes.etc.,)
> these I have personally seen.
> for more info contact me off list.
> John Olsen
> Heatlog Industries.
>

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Tue Mar 9 00:36:46 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Stoves -- Cojones -- and sustainability
In-Reply-To: <02fe01c3fedc$37554060$126c0443@net>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.013646.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

in a previous message, Ron Larson on 2/29/04 11:53 at ronallarson@QWEST.NET
wrote:

> David, Peter (cc all stovers):
>
> 1. Thanks for the recommendation and citation to the (maybe 1996?)
> paper by Rick Wilk (Prof., Anthropology, Indiana):
> http://www.indiana.edu/~wanthro/sust.htm Since we haven't been on the
> delivery topic for a while, two favorable messages in one day on one paper
> probably means it is worth more discussion. For the benefit of others, I
> will give four citations from the paper which I also enjoyed reading, and
> then ask Peter and David a few questions below:

.
> The key element that makes a difference in this hybrid strategy is that the
ultimate control of the technology remains on the hands of those
> who will use it. If the users are not involved in the planning and design of
> new technologies, technologies cannot be socially sustainable in the long
> term, because the process of development will undermine the self-reliance
> and social capital that is the crucial ingredient in sustainable
> development."
>
> 5. So Questions #1 to Peter - Could you describe a bit more on how you
> view your role in Belize - is it like the above? Are you there with an
> intent to develop hybrid technologies for wider distribution? Any part of
> Rick's work that directly overlaps with your own?
>
> 6. Questions #2 to David - I am guessing from the title of your
> organization that you are in a lot of agreement with Rick. I apologize if I
> missed some earlier description of Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con
> Energia Solar, but are you employing the principles given above? Can you
> describe your group more fully?

Ron - Sorry about the lapse of time. Sometimes I try to think before I
speak.

Since I am accustomed to teach by doing, perhaps I can best show by telling
. . . quoting Dave Pollard's blog from How to Save the World
(http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/2004/03/04.html)

"It seems to me the reasons we converse are complex and varied, and the fact
that we choose to converse mostly with like minds is that it's easier and
more personally productive than conversing with people whose worldview is
antithetical to ours. Most people change their minds because new information
undermines the logic that had led to their former opinion, not because
someone with an opposing view effectively challenges their logic. "

(to me that quote describes best the way I see the stove list)

About Us ? (since you asked)

Center for Development with Solar Energy Foundation
We believe that there is hope for the many disenfranchised of this
world. Our goal is to enrich humanity by equipping people with social and
technological tools that permit them to direct their own destinies. All of
our activities center around three key concepts; Alternative Education,
Renewable Energy and Social Justice.
Our founders bring together synergistic experiences unifying business
administration, and social sciences with appropriate technology transfer.

Mission
The Foundation defines it?s institutional mission in lines of action
that foment positive change in living conditions in disenfranchised
populations, promoting the widest possible participation by society in the
use of alternative energies to better the quality of life as a manifestation
of social and economic justice.

Vision
We see quality of life increase while poverty diminishes as communities
are collectively edified applying alternative resources through solidarity
and harmonious stewardship for the environment, achieved by working together
with public and private institutions.

Primary Institutional Goal
Improve the quality of life en rural, urban and peri-urban areas by
implementing practices that achieve social and economic justice through the
efficient utilization of resources, appropriate technologies and alternative
energies to achieve sustainable development in Bolivia and South America as
a poverty reduction and environmental strategy.
Secondary Institutional Goals
? Foment community based micro enterprises especially related to gender and
children, to improve the economic conditions of people in specific areas of
interest.
? Provide social and technical assistance to other organizations to help
them achieve solid management, while preserving the ecology.
? Promote the micro businessman, farmer and or craftsman, their families and
rural communities to help them better their lives, homes and communities
through holistic sustainable activities.
? Provide advice and training to empower women and children in
sustainability.
Institutional Activities
? Provide consultations, training courses, workshops and conferences to
different interest levels, including elaborating didactical and pedagogical
materials related to holistic and sustainable development.
? Promote and commercialize products developed by craftsmen and micro
businesses.
? Develop and coordinate activities and mutual cooperation with national and
international organizations having similar goals.

Institutional Lines of action
? 1) PROALDE - Dehydrated Food Products Program,
2) Ecological Cooking Systems Program,
3), The Center for Development in Alternative Technologies
4) Rural Daycare Centers,
5) Courses and training workshops.

Applying methodology developed by David and Ruth Whitfield, 1,500 solar
cookers have been incorporated into the Bolivian and southern Peruvian
cultures in diverse climate zones and social levels since 2000. Solid
scientific data validates the effectiveness of the approach and methodology
utilized. Increased health, better nutrition and an overall higher quality
of life are measurable major benefits from their usage, which also affect
sustainable development.

Our vision of improved stoves is integrated use of efficient biomass,
retained heat and solar cooking. More emphasis is placed on retained heat
and solar cooking as they present primary cultural barriers, but provide the
most economical, energetic and health improvements, since cooking in those
systems require no energy inputs from contaminating sources.

As a result of the demand created by the Ecological cooker courses, some of
the course participants have already developed cottage industries to supply
these devices within their geographical areas. The for profit Bolivian
business owned and administered by Ruth Saavedra (de Whitfield), Sobre la
Roca is now perusing commercialization of improved stoves, and is also
supplying several formal course participants with cookers in ?kit? form.

The CEDESOL Directory (which is still growing) is composed of Pedro Beccar,
Esther Balboa, and Gonzalo Terceros, all proven, experienced in their
fields and in implementing projects. They are not paid for their
contribution in guiding the Foundation; rather contributing to the social
well being of Bolivians motivates them. Esther manages the training and
educational activities, Gonzalo Terceros was 7 years President of the
Cochabamba City Council and served as Mayor for 3 years, even being chosen
as the best Mayor in Bolivia, and is a Sociology professor in the State
University of Cochabamba. Pedro Beccar handles the finances, has a great
deal of administrative experience and is President of the Cochabamba Social
Club.

David Whitfield, Executive Director of CEDESOL Foundation, educated in
social and environmental sciences brings technological and practical
development experience into the organization.

Pedro Beccar, M. Sc. - Financial Director, has a strong business
administration and international relations background, with grant managing
experience. He is responsible for overseeing administration of the
Foundation, its projects and enlaces with government.

Mrs. Esther Balboa, PhD. - Educational Director, - an anthropologist, has
extensive experience in alternative energies, publications, elaboration of
didactical material and communications. She was the vice presidential
candidate for an indigenous party during the last Bolivian elections, was
Vice minister of Education and is internationally respected for her
integrity and understanding of rural cultures. She speaks 6 languages,
three of which are native to Bolivia?s main ethnic groups.

Gonzalo Terceros R. M. Sc., - (a Senior Political Analysis) Projects
Coordinator, a sociologist and ex Mayor of Cochabamaba, has extensive
experience in project management, team building, grant implementation,
governmental relations and problem solving.

Ilse Gisela Revollo, Administrative Coordinator, has a background in
business administration and works with micro enterprise development.

Jose Luis Rivero, Coordinator General, specializes in communication and
alternative education. He coordinates planning, radio and video
productions, organizational and managerial development and training.

Mery Norma Montalvo, a systems engineer is responsible for internal
communications, information flow and will be publishing project activities
on the Web.

Mario Ortu?o is auditor and accountant under the Financial Director. He
also helps in teaching micro enterprise accounting. He speaks Quechua and
some Aymara.

We have 5 ecological cooker trainers and construction technicians, who speak
either Quechua or Aymara.

Other human resources are added as required, but we try to work with support
from specialty organizations to reduce full time employees and make use of
talent already developed within these external organizations.

Our organization is only a little over a year old and is still very much in
the formation stage. Our name comes from an organization in Paraguay and a
memorandum of understanding we subscribed to in 2002 with them and the
Celisteen Foundation run by the alternative Nobel peace prize winner Martin
Alameda, for collaboration on tech sharing and project development. There
is also a CEDESOL group in Argentina we try to stay linked to and share
with.

We don't want to be just another organization to capture funds and become
professional fund catchers (although we ARE looking for funding <give,
give>). This is one of the reasons we support the formation of community
micro enterprises. Hoping to channel technical and managerial knowledge
into people or groups that have initiative to try to help themselves.

I am not an engineer, maybe not even a social scientist, perhaps a dreamer
and a tinkerer, thinking to blend the benefits of formal education with the
practical side of "applied learning through living".

I was turned on to solar cooking by Bruce Stahlberg and began investigating
why they weren't wide spread. I learned about the "rocket stove" from
Barbara Kerr on the solar cooking list and scrambling around for a drawing
on it, I stumbled over Dean Still, who very patiently helped me acquire some
knowledge on biomass cook stoves and more on retained heat cooking. Through
this list our horizons have expanded. Sometimes like the old purple micro
dot from the early 70s ;-)

Our technique of using the 3 cooker types has helped overcome some of the
earlier barriers to solar cooking. That process reinforces my thinking that
all the systems should be integrated, not just the cooking systems but the
thinking systems.

It appears to me that real technology transfer is not so much about
technology as it is about social issues. There are so many wonderful
gadgets out there, but none of them are "practical" in the needy world until
they are able to be used by "people". What good is a gadget if no one wants
to use it!

Our initial method of participative hands on workshops has been successful,
I think, because it permits the "common" person to understand how it works
and replicate the construction with indigenous materials and common tools.

When local people can replicate the construction, the technology becomes
theirs, no longer external and that seems to help it stay in use once the
"gringos" are gone. From that point they become tinkerers and start making
"improvements". We see that as something to reinforce and help incubate in
a "bootstrap" way. (thus began CEDESOL) Along the way, those folks might
become part of networks for innovation and other types of tech transfer.

When I pulled out of Sobre la Roca and a Bolivian women with only empirical
business education became the "chief cook and bottle washer " she was
frustrated by me "abandoning the ship", but that forced her to make some
changes in her cosmo-vision (her having only done the participative
construction week long workshops financed by a French NGO) and in Dec she
sold her first set of 26 solar cookers to a group of people that had saved
their money until they all could come together for a day of training and pay
cash for their cookers. One person even took the first double sized cooker
CEDESOL developed for SLR to try out (not even painted yet).

Now (with CEDESOL's help), she has bagged some revolving micro credit
financing and has begun her first group of 100 cookers with dozens of folks
clambering for CEDESOL's version of the ceramic brick rocket stove. Within
6 months she anticipates building and selling 100 a month.

CEDESOL intends to replicate that victory. In reality Bruce's victory
because it was his dream to see solar cooking and alternative cooking
systems spread by a Bolivian business.

Bolivia is an interesting living laboratory because of the simmering social
climate and diverse ecological and cultural areas. None of this work is
"plug and play" yet but just coming back from the volatile coca growing
region of Chapare (still having over 400 emails unread) I am encouraged
having found even more people interested in incorporating our ideas. (now
if I could just catch some of those funds)

There we are endeavoring to implement a "new" micro business model through
producer owned solar-biomass hybrid drying systems. Some folks were quick
to see commercial uses for solar cookers and modified rocket stoves in
restaurants. "We can make them here!" "We can use the bananas that are
being thrown away now!" (anyone interested in helping us market honey
colored {not pasty white} Bolivian sun-kissed tropical fruit ?)

I envision a time where the sugar based biogas systems are cooking away on
banana and yucca pulp, and bamboo is harvested for charcoal production too.
With large gasifiers producing electricity and refrigeration.

Which brings me to your next question Ron

> 7. Questions #3 to anyone else on the list - How can we on "stoves" do
> a better job of working with the indigenous groups that Rick Wilk (and many
> others on this list) are trying to promote. I think the Karves offer a good
> example of how we can work cooperatively. By spreading success stories and
> asking questions of those of us who can't work overseas but have the
> interest in one area (stoves) where "hybrid" technologies seem to make a lot
> of sense. Wilk doesn't talk about how the web can be important in
> developing this team spirit. Can groups like "stoves" help?

YES
I think "stoves" list is helping but probably can help more if energy is
focused on as you suggest - collaboration, cooperation and "hybrid"
technologies.

I believe the ETHOS project was given life because of the team spirit this
web list has generated. The web page and photo sharing is very important
because it helps us "tinkerers" to bridge what we lack as professionals and
much less wheel reinventing is done. But the real joy comes when someone
sees their idea take shape in a form completely un-thought of originally by
someone else adapting it to a local need.

Still, ?what could result from focused energy on how we can do a better job
of working with indigenous groups?
And at the same time let's not stop finding how to make them better, faster,
more economical and on assembly lines!
>
> Thanks again to Peter and David.
>
> Ron

--
"Sustainable development meets the needs of the present without compromising
the ability of future generations to meet their own needs."

David Whitfield
Director
CEDESOL
P.O. Box 4723
La Paz Bolivia South America
591-2-2414882 La Paz office or 591 7 742 4269 Cochabamba
cellular

solar1@zuper.net

dewv@yahoo.com

http://india.shellfoundation.net/goto.php/User:David

http://www.solarcooking.org/media/broadcast/whitfield/bio-whitfield.htm

http://www.thehungersite.com

From hotspringfreak at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 9 01:39:03 2004
From: hotspringfreak at HOTMAIL.COM (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Starting fires with non-edible combustible oils Was: Re:
[STOVES] One candle of heat
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.013903.0500.HOTSPRINGFREAK@HOTMAIL.COM>

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:30:06 -0600, Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
wrote:

>Stovers:
>
>On 25 Feb I posted the message below. Really, not any replies. We had
>some discussion about bio-oils as FUELS, but not as "starters" of fires of
>other materials. I am sure that turpentine and "mineral spirits" and
paint
>thinner could be used.
>
>But I was hoping for some plant that is or could be grown locally so the
>local people could gather, crush, squeeze, press or somehow get a fluid
(or
>solid) that could be used as a starter, that is, ignited with one match
and
>to burn for 30 to 60 seconds with a nice flame.
>
>I am NOT looking for oils, etc for "lighting, as in illumination". But
>for lighting a fire, as in a fire starter.
>
>Gene Schultz has sent me some photocopy materials, but at first glance the
>closest reference is to oils for lighting = illumination.
>
>I am thinking of experimenting with some mixtures, such as corn oil mixed
>with kerosene.
>
>Any assistance will be appreciated.
>
>Paul
>
>******* old message is below ****************
>Ron mentioned this topic (below) and I hope that someone can provide some
>leads.
>
>In the case of the top-lit gasifiers, I find it important to have a
>conveniently volatile "starter" to get the initial fire (for pyrolysis)
>going. I cannot directly pour on a liquid, because it will drip too low
>into the fuel bed. But I can put the liquid onto something (I have used
>wood chips, corn cobs, and char-pieces very successfully), and then place
>that into the top of the fuel to be lighted easily. A single match was
>usually enough to start my stove.
>
>Among my successful experiments:
>
>1. Citronella (Tiki-torch fuel) oil.
>
>2. Kerosene (parafin, in many countries) (but use VERY sparingly or you
>will get black soot in the initial flames until the kerosene is gone.)
>
>3. Alcohol (95% and better)
>
>4. Gel-fuel (can even be squirted on directly because it does not drip.)
>
>(5. Some regular cooking oil and meat fat did NOT give me as good of a
>start-up flame as I wanted).
>
>:-)) I remember chatting with Crispin (maybe 2 years ago) about lighting
>my early stoves with citronella in wood chips, and he (jokingly) said that
>I "cheated" with the starting of the fire because rural folk would not
have
>such volatile substances for fire starting.
>
>So, if a sufficient number and variety of "starting materials" can be
named
>(and have low cost and wide geographic distribution), then all of us could
>have easier ways to start our fires (even Crispin :-)) ).
>
>Paul
>
>At 09:11 PM 2/24/04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
>> 2. Back to the world of "candles", I hope we can hear from some of
the
>>few "stoves" list members who have in the past talked about the benefits
of
>>using seed oils - for both lighting and cooking (and maybe together). I
>>think there are some natural "seed" products which are solid at room
>>temperature - but many/most are I guess liquid. There are many non-
edible
>>oils that can be combusted very cleanly and come at low or no cost (if
>>picked in the field).
>>
>>Ron
>
>Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
>Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
>Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
>Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
>E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

Yes, a non-spillable solid comes to mind. Since you reside within the
United States, there is a good (did I say good? I meant to say Great!)
firestarter I can truly recommend -- Fatwood. A trip to the BBQ section
of a Supermarket should turn up a compact box of split resinous fatwood,
marketed as a firestarter. So resinous, it sinks in water, lights easily
after wetted and generally cannot be put out by winds. It will burn with
a very hot smoky black flame and ignite anything anywhere near it.
Fatwood burns so well that I suggest you further split each small stick a
number of times more before lighting these...twigs. That makes a small
box of this quite economical, since you'll use such a small amount in
practice and it's maybe $3.00 USD. Should last months. Take care in
splitting, if not you will tend to eventually get splinters, which may
fester - a common problem with this particular type of wood. To get
around this, I successfully use a small (recycled- thriftstore) and sharp
garden hand shear, which splits this nicely and also handily trims found
wood fuel for my WoodGas CampStove (Thank you Dr. Reed and Shivayam!) and
for tincanium Rocket stoves I've made. Fatwood resin's aroma is addictive
as is match sulphur, IMHO. If fatwood is not available, it is easily
found through a web search. The prices vary widely and the local market
is your best bet, but there's always the Internet.

best and such,
Chris Smith
Coeur d'Alene, Idaho USA

From snkm at BTL.NET Tue Mar 9 08:26:17 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Harvesting Cattail and Calamus - in situ
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.072617.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 05:38 PM 3/8/2004 -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
>Peter and all,
>
>To assist my smoking friends/relatives to break the habit, where can I get
>calamus? My local healthfood store does not have it, and wonders if it
>might be available as a supplement, but not likely to get as a root. (I
>live in central Illinois, USA.)
>
>Anyone know about this?
>
>Paul [ who MIGHT harvest a little if he could find it ;-))

Hi Paul;

The calamus found in the herb shops is totally dry -- the root totally dead
-- and seems to lack the properties required.

So best you find a patch and harvest and prepare as described.

A couple of hours work lays up enough for more than one person for one year.

So -- try the herbal shop calamus -- and if it does not "work" -- then go
to direct harvest and preparing -- if at all possible.

Peter

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Tue Mar 9 08:55:34 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Tinder 2..., Fire starters
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.065534.0700.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear Stoves et al:

The various messages below deal with the subject of "tinder" (Webster: n. a
dry substance with a low ignition temperature, readily ignited by a spark).
Various mosses, shavings etc. fill the bill.

Getting a quick, well spread base for any fire is half the battle, so this
subject deserves a LOT of attention. I have wrestled with it for years for
our top lit WoodGas stoves where the fire needs to spread laterally to the
whole surface before flaming pyrolysis begins to generate the gas for
cooking.

Would a match qualify as tinder under the above definition? No, it has
replaced the spark in this classical definition of tinder. The fatwood, veg
oils, etc. below are really the second stage of fire lighting, a "tinder2"
or "fire starter".

My wife, Vivian, regularly uses fatwood to start our fireplace fire. Good
stuff, but a bit heavy for small fires and smoky. Hyrocarbons and fats/oils
are easy to pyrolyse to make soot, so if they don't have easy access to air,
they will smoke, blacken the pot etc. Chris Smith's suggestion of further
size reduction for the fat wood solves the first problem. Shredding would
be even better.

Of course kerosene etc. is a great fire starter, but again quite smoky, and
smelly, and fossil fuels is what we are trying to replace. Similarly the
animal fats and veg oils are good, but smoky.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While a persistant fire is desirable, some volatility is also useful to
cause the fire to spread laterally. We particularly like the alcohols,
methanol (wood), ethanol and isopropanol (IPA), all readily available at a
reasonable price. Since they contain significant oxygen, they don't produce
any soot and give a quick clean start for fires. Methanol and IPA are found
in half pint containers as "dri-gas"; IPA (90 - 100%) is available as
rubbing alcohol for < $1/pint. A pint will make a LOT of soaked wood
chips/shavings etc.

We recommend the alcohols for starting our WoodGas stoves and once lit
cooking can start immediately. What good is being able to boil a liter of
water in 5 minutes if it took 5 minutes to get the fire going?

We have plans to market an even better "tinder" with our woodgas stoves.
Keep tuned....

Onward and upward....

TOM REED WOODGASLLC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smith" <hotspringfreak@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Starting fires with non-edible combustible oils Was:
Re: [STOVES] One candle of heat

> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:30:06 -0600, Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
> wrote:
>
> >Stovers:
> >
> >On 25 Feb I posted the message below. Really, not any replies. We had
> >some discussion about bio-oils as FUELS, but not as "starters" of fires
of
> >other materials. I am sure that turpentine and "mineral spirits" and
> paint
> >thinner could be used.
> >
> >But I was hoping for some plant that is or could be grown locally so the
> >local people could gather, crush, squeeze, press or somehow get a fluid
> (or
> >solid) that could be used as a starter, that is, ignited with one match
> and
> >to burn for 30 to 60 seconds with a nice flame.
> >
> >I am NOT looking for oils, etc for "lighting, as in illumination". But
> >for lighting a fire, as in a fire starter.
> >
> >Gene Schultz has sent me some photocopy materials, but at first glance
the
> >closest reference is to oils for lighting = illumination.
> >
> >I am thinking of experimenting with some mixtures, such as corn oil mixed
> >with kerosene.
> >
> >Any assistance will be appreciated.
> >
> >Paul
> >
> >******* old message is below ****************
> >Ron mentioned this topic (below) and I hope that someone can provide some
> >leads.
> >
> >In the case of the top-lit gasifiers, I find it important to have a
> >conveniently volatile "starter" to get the initial fire (for pyrolysis)
> >going. I cannot directly pour on a liquid, because it will drip too low
> >into the fuel bed. But I can put the liquid onto something (I have used
> >wood chips, corn cobs, and char-pieces very successfully), and then place
> >that into the top of the fuel to be lighted easily. A single match was
> >usually enough to start my stove.
> >
> >Among my successful experiments:
> >
> >1. Citronella (Tiki-torch fuel) oil.
> >
> >2. Kerosene (parafin, in many countries) (but use VERY sparingly or you
> >will get black soot in the initial flames until the kerosene is gone.)
> >
> >3. Alcohol (95% and better)
> >
> >4. Gel-fuel (can even be squirted on directly because it does not drip.)
> >
> >(5. Some regular cooking oil and meat fat did NOT give me as good of a
> >start-up flame as I wanted).
> >
> >:-)) I remember chatting with Crispin (maybe 2 years ago) about lighting
> >my early stoves with citronella in wood chips, and he (jokingly) said
that
> >I "cheated" with the starting of the fire because rural folk would not
> have
> >such volatile substances for fire starting.
> >
> >So, if a sufficient number and variety of "starting materials" can be
> named
> >(and have low cost and wide geographic distribution), then all of us
could
> >have easier ways to start our fires (even Crispin :-)) ).
> >
> >Paul
> >
> >At 09:11 PM 2/24/04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
> >> 2. Back to the world of "candles", I hope we can hear from some of
> the
> >>few "stoves" list members who have in the past talked about the benefits
> of
> >>using seed oils - for both lighting and cooking (and maybe together). I
> >>think there are some natural "seed" products which are solid at room
> >>temperature - but many/most are I guess liquid. There are many non-
> edible
> >>oils that can be combusted very cleanly and come at low or no cost (if
> >>picked in the field).
> >>
> >>Ron
> >
> >Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> >Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> >Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> >Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> >E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
> Yes, a non-spillable solid comes to mind. Since you reside within the
> United States, there is a good (did I say good? I meant to say Great!)
> firestarter I can truly recommend -- Fatwood. A trip to the BBQ section
> of a Supermarket should turn up a compact box of split resinous fatwood,
> marketed as a firestarter. So resinous, it sinks in water, lights easily
> after wetted and generally cannot be put out by winds. It will burn with
> a very hot smoky black flame and ignite anything anywhere near it.
> Fatwood burns so well that I suggest you further split each small stick a
> number of times more before lighting these...twigs. That makes a small
> box of this quite economical, since you'll use such a small amount in
> practice and it's maybe $3.00 USD. Should last months. Take care in
> splitting, if not you will tend to eventually get splinters, which may
> fester - a common problem with this particular type of wood. To get
> around this, I successfully use a small (recycled- thriftstore) and sharp
> garden hand shear, which splits this nicely and also handily trims found
> wood fuel for my WoodGas CampStove (Thank you Dr. Reed and Shivayam!) and
> for tincanium Rocket stoves I've made. Fatwood resin's aroma is addictive
> as is match sulphur, IMHO. If fatwood is not available, it is easily
> found through a web search. The prices vary widely and the local market
> is your best bet, but there's always the Internet.
>
> best and such,
> Chris Smith
> Coeur d'Alene, Idaho USA

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Tue Mar 9 09:39:38 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Need the poor always be with us???
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.073938.0700.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear Y'All:

Paul says Crispin said...

There is an attitude in the stoves list that if any solution costs money it
must be discarded.

Checking the web on "poor always be with us", I found:

Reading: from the Christian Scriptures, the Gospel of Matthew 26:6-11
While Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper, a woman
approached Him

with an alabaster jar of very expensive fragrant oil. She poured it on His
head as He was

reclining at the table. When the disciples saw it, they were indignant. "Why
this waste?"

they asked. "This might have been sold for a great deal and given to the
poor." But

Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She
has done a

noble thing for Me. You always have the poor with you, but you do not always
have

Me."

Will the Poor Always be With Us?

A Sermon Delivered on November 10, 2002

The Reverend Axel H. Gehrmann, Unitarian Universalist Church, Urbana,
Illinois 61801-3221

~~~~~~~~~~~
There are many levels of "poor". Slavery forcibly kept much of the world's
population "poor" by force until a few hundred years ago. Now technology
has mad eit possible for everyone to be well fed and well housed. Only the
politics is missing.

Rural fold have often learned to live very well with relatively little
technology. However, urban poor can't exist without considerable expense
for charcoal/fuels, food, shelter etc. So they are totally dependent on the
fossil fuel base, but if given a cheaper, clean fuel alternative could pay
for it.

So, while we need to look for inexpensive, low tech solutions for cooking,
we shouldn't focus only on the lowest cost unsatisfactory solutions. "The
poor will always be with us" is an excuse for ignoring the problems. Don't
need that attitude here.

As Always, Onward and upward, TOM REED BEF

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 5:30 PM
Subject: [STOVES] Starting fires with non-edible combustible oils Was: Re:
[STOVES] One candle of heat

> Stovers:
>
> On 25 Feb I posted the message below. Really, not any replies. We had
> some discussion about bio-oils as FUELS, but not as "starters" of fires of
> other materials. I am sure that turpentine and "mineral spirits" and
paint
> thinner could be used.
>
> But I was hoping for some plant that is or could be grown locally so the
> local people could gather, crush, squeeze, press or somehow get a fluid
(or
> solid) that could be used as a starter, that is, ignited with one match
and
> to burn for 30 to 60 seconds with a nice flame.
>
> I am NOT looking for oils, etc for "lighting, as in illumination". But
> for lighting a fire, as in a fire starter.
>
> Gene Schultz has sent me some photocopy materials, but at first glance the
> closest reference is to oils for lighting = illumination.
>
> I am thinking of experimenting with some mixtures, such as corn oil mixed
> with kerosene.
>
> Any assistance will be appreciated.
>
> Paul
>
> ******* old message is below ****************
> Ron mentioned this topic (below) and I hope that someone can provide some
> leads.
>
> In the case of the top-lit gasifiers, I find it important to have a
> conveniently volatile "starter" to get the initial fire (for pyrolysis)
> going. I cannot directly pour on a liquid, because it will drip too low
> into the fuel bed. But I can put the liquid onto something (I have used
> wood chips, corn cobs, and char-pieces very successfully), and then place
> that into the top of the fuel to be lighted easily. A single match was
> usually enough to start my stove.
>
> Among my successful experiments:
>
> 1. Citronella (Tiki-torch fuel) oil.
>
> 2. Kerosene (parafin, in many countries) (but use VERY sparingly or you
> will get black soot in the initial flames until the kerosene is gone.)
>
> 3. Alcohol (95% and better)
>
> 4. Gel-fuel (can even be squirted on directly because it does not drip.)
>
> (5. Some regular cooking oil and meat fat did NOT give me as good of a
> start-up flame as I wanted).
>
> :-)) I remember chatting with Crispin (maybe 2 years ago) about lighting
> my early stoves with citronella in wood chips, and he (jokingly) said that
> I "cheated" with the starting of the fire because rural folk would not
have
> such volatile substances for fire starting.
>
> So, if a sufficient number and variety of "starting materials" can be
named
> (and have low cost and wide geographic distribution), then all of us could
> have easier ways to start our fires (even Crispin :-)) ).
>
> Paul
>
> At 09:11 PM 2/24/04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
> > 2. Back to the world of "candles", I hope we can hear from some of
the
> >few "stoves" list members who have in the past talked about the benefits
of
> >using seed oils - for both lighting and cooking (and maybe together). I
> >think there are some natural "seed" products which are solid at room
> >temperature - but many/most are I guess liquid. There are many
non-edible
> >oils that can be combusted very cleanly and come at low or no cost (if
> >picked in the field).
> >
> >Ron
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Tue Mar 9 02:23:53 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin /Posix)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Fw: [STOVES] if biomass has to be chopped up or shredded
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.092353.0200.CRISPIN@NEWDAWN.SZ>

Dear Robert

>I have build several chopper/shredder for reducing size of bio-mass
(coconut
>husks, sugar cane waste, yard trimmings, kitchen and market waste) and
>mixing the materials for composting. Last model has been very successful,
>running about an hour per day, everyday for the last 3 years without any
>problems.
>
>I would be interested to learn about the units you have built. Are any
>photo's available?
>
>Robert Deutsch, Advisor

More like, "Hey Robert, how about YOU showing us your photots!"

Sounds like a useful machine.

Regards
Crispin

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Tue Mar 9 10:40:53 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Starting fires with non-edible combustible oils Was: Re:
[STOVES] One candle of heat
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040308181507.00d64f00@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.094053.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 06:30:06PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
> Stovers:
>
> On 25 Feb I posted the message below. Really, not any replies. We had
> some discussion about bio-oils as FUELS, but not as "starters" of fires of

I thought that was what we *were* talking about -- using the oils and/or
waxes to soak some of the biomass to use as firestarters, just as some of us use
alcohol now. Also was mentioned using pine resins and birch bark. I would think
that any oil used for illumination could be used for fire starting as well,
although some obviously would work much better than others, i.e., have a lower
kindling point.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Tue Mar 9 12:35:17 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Stoves --- and sustainability
In-Reply-To: <BC72D02D.2908%solar1@zuper.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.133517.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

Dear stovers,
My apologies for the length of the earlier post. Hope no element of it was
offensive.
David
in a previous message, Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar
on 3/9/04 01:36 at solar1@ZUPER.NET wrote:

> in a previous message, Ron Larson on 2/29/04 11:53 at ronallarson@QWEST.NET
> wrote:
>
>> David, Peter (cc all stovers):
>>
>> 1. Thanks for the recommendation and citation to the (maybe 1996?)
>> paper by Rick Wilk (Prof., Anthropology, Indiana):

>> developing this team spirit. Can groups like "stoves" help?
>
> YES
> I think "stoves" list is helping but probably can help more if energy is
> focused on as you suggest - collaboration, cooperation and "hybrid"
> technologies.
>
> I believe the ETHOS project was given life because of the team spirit this
> web list has generated. The web page and photo sharing is very important
> because it helps us "tinkerers" to bridge what we lack as professionals and
> much less wheel reinventing is done. But the real joy comes when someone
> sees their idea take shape in a form completely un-thought of originally by
> someone else adapting it to a local need.
>
> Still, ?what could result from focused energy on how we can do a better job
> of working with indigenous groups?
> And at the same time let's not stop finding how to make them better, faster,
> more economical and on assembly lines!
>>
>> Thanks again to Peter and David.
>>
>> Ron
>
> --
> "Sustainable development meets the needs of the present without compromising
> the ability of future generations to meet their own needs."
>
> David Whitfield
> Director
> CEDESOL
> P.O. Box 4723
> La Paz Bolivia South America
> 591-2-2414882 La Paz office or 591 7 742 4269 Cochabamba
> cellular
>
> solar1@zuper.net
>
> dewv@yahoo.com
>
> http://india.shellfoundation.net/goto.php/User:David
>
> http://www.solarcooking.org/media/broadcast/whitfield/bio-whitfield.htm
>
> http://www.thehungersite.com
>

--
He who takes the wrong path makes the journey thrice. Navigation is
more important than knowledge.

David Whitfield

From snkm at BTL.NET Tue Mar 9 13:04:22 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Harvesting Cattail and Calamus - in situ
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.120422.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

At 05:55 PM 3/8/2004 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 05:38:27PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
>> Peter and all,

Hi Harmon and all;

http://www.kalyx.com/store/proddetail.cfm/ItemID/29198.0/CategoryID/1000.0/S
ubCatID/2480.0/file.htm

Does have excellent graphics and description. For some of the people wya
out there and browsing being a problem -- ahve taken the liberty of posting
just the text.

I know this is not a regular topic for this list -- but still -- good stuff
to know.

The part about "maybe" getting "high" from chewing this root is
ridiculous!! One would have to swallow half a pound to feel any effect --
and I'd like to meet the person that can even chew and swallow one gram!!

But it is probably included to encourage people to buy and experiment.
Being todays favorite obcession in the modern nations is to just go so out
of it they can not go crazy thinking about the "problems".

But that is not going to work either -- your better facing any problem cold
sober -- always. And the more problematic one's life becomes -- the more
sober one should stay.

Peter / Belize

**********Calamus*********

This herb has traditionally been smoked, eaten, or brewed into a tea,
decoction or tincture.

According to Ayurvedic tradition, Vacha is a 'sattvic' herb which feeds and
transmutes the sexual 'kundalini' energy. Calamus has been called called
'the closest thing to a sex stimulant that nature has to offer.'

It is a stimulating nervine antispasmodic, and a general tonic to the mind.
As a rejuvenative for the brain and nervous system, it is used to promote
cerebral circulation, to stimulate self-expression, and to help manage a
wide range of symptoms in the head, including neuralgia, epilepsy, memory
loss and shock. In many cases involving the sinuses or shock, the powdered
root is taken nasally.

The Cree say that they can take Calamus root and 'travel great distances
without touching the ground'.

Active constituents: Monoterpene hydrocarbons, sequestrine ketones, (trans-
or Alpha) Asarone (2,4,5-trimethoxy-1-propenylbenzene), and Beta-asarone
(cis- isomer) contained in the roots essential oils.

It is used in the Phillipines for rheumatism and memory problems. In Korea,
it is an ingredient in a type of moonshine called Immortals' Booze.
Research in China has shown the essential oil in this rhizome to be
sedating and neuroprotectant.

Sweet flag, more accurately Acorus gramineus, Japanese Sweet Flag, has been
used in Asia for at least the last 2000 years for a number of beneficial
reasons. The ancient Chinese used it to lessen swelling and for constipation.

The Indian variety is Acorus calamus. In India, Ayurvedic medicinal
practice has used the magical root to cure fevers, for asthma and
bronchitis, and as an all around sedative. Acorus calamus root was also
used by the ancient Greeks and included in the traditional remedies of many
other European cultures.

During the middle ages calamus was an admixture in several of the ancient,
psychoactive, 'witches flying ointments', often being mixed with
solanacious herbs.

The root was also well-known in Biblical times and mentioned in Exodus 30:
22-25 as one of the ingredients of the 'holy anointing oil'.

The Cree Indians of Northern Alberta use calamus for a number of medicinal
reasons including: as an analgesic for the relief of toothache or headache,
for oral hygiene to cleanse and disinfect the teeth, the fight the effects
of exhaustion or fatigue, and to help cure/prevent a hangover.

Other Native tribes used it to treat a cough, made a decoction as a
carminative and as an infusion for cholic.

The Sioux used the whole plant, making aromatic garlands from the leaves
and using the root as a tea for bowel pains, or rubbed the chewed root on
the skin for a general illness cure.

Calamus was also known to many early American settlers and used for a
number of folk remedies. Walt Whitman even wrote poetry about his beloved
herb in 'Leaves of Grass'.

Calamus was also widely used by Canadian trappers working for the Hudson
Bay Company, using it as a stimulant, chewing a small piece whenever tired.

The unpeeled, dried rhizome was listed in the U.S. Pharmacopoeia until 1916
and in the National Formulary until 1950, for medicinal use on humans.

Today the FDA defines calamus as 'not intended for human consumption.' This
is due to the fact that massive doses of isolated beta-Asarone given to lab
rats over extended time periods have proven to be carcinogenic. The real
reason appears to be more political.

http://www.upb.pitt.edu/visitors/media_center/press_releases/archive/january
_99/

'Dr. David Soriano, associate professor of chemistry at the University of
Pittsburgh at Bradford, is hoping the government takes a closer look at a
popular aquatic garden plant.

Soriano recently presented a paper at the 50th Southeastern Regional
Meeting of the American Chemical Society in Raleigh , N.C. The paper,
titled 'Isolation of beta-Asarone from Acorus gramineus Variegatas and
Synthesis via a Phase-Transfer Catalyzed Wittig Reaction,' was drafted with
collaboration from four students.

'This aquatic plant (Acorus gramineus), a dwarf variety of Sweet Flag, is
available from many American greenhouses and is a popular component of many
backyard ponds,' Soriano explains. 'However, this plant metabolite,
beta-Asarone, is a powerful central nervous system stimulant.'

A metabolite is simply a biochemical produced by an organism as a result of
its natural chemistry, explains Soriano. Most reactions in live forms are
produced by enzyme catalysts. For example, cocaine is a metabolite which is
formed in coca leaves. If a plant produces cocaine it follows that it must
have the enzymes present to produce that substance. The enzymes are
themselves produced by the genes in the organism.

'The actual point of my talk,' says Soriano, 'is that this plant should be
considered as a controlled substance like marijuana and opium plants. The
plant can be grown and the rhizome chewed on to gain the effects of
stimulation.'

Grieve's classic 'A Modern Herbal': 'Though now common throughout Europe,
there is little doubt that the Sweet Flag [Acorus calamus] is a native of
eastern countries, being indigenous to the marshes of the mountains of India.'

'Calamus was formerly much esteemed as an aromatic stimulant and mild
tonic. A fluid extract is an official preparation in the United States and
some other Pharmacopceias, but it is not now official in the British
Pharmacopceia, though it is much used in herbal medicine as an aromatic
bitter.'

'On account of the volatile oil which is present, it also acts as a
carminative, removing the discomfort caused by flatulence and checking the
growth of the bacteria which give rise to it.'

'It is used to increase the appetite and benefit digestion, given as fluid
extract, infusion or tincture.'

'Tincture of Calamus, obtained by macerating the finely-cut rhizome in
alcohol for seven days and filtering, is used as a stomachic and flavouring
agent. It has a brownish-yellow colour and a pungent, spicy taste.

'The essential oil is used as an addition to inhalations.'

'The dried root may be chewed ad libitum to relieve dyspepsia or an
infusion of 1 oz. to 1 pint of boiling water may be taken freely in doses
of a teacupful. The dried root is also chewed to clear the voice.'

'Fluid extract, U.S.P., 15 to 60 drops.'

'Calamus has been found useful in ague and low fever, and was once greatly
used by country people in Norfolk, either in infusion, or powdered, as a
remedy against the fever prevalent in the Fens. Its use has been attended
with great success where Peruvian bark has failed. It is also beneficial as
a mild stimulant in typhoid cases.'

'The tonic medicine called Stockton Bitters, formerly in much esteem in
some parts of England, is made from the root of this plant and that of
Gentiana campestris.'

Waller's British Herbal says:
'It is of great service in all nervous complaints, vertigoes, headaches and
hypochondriacal affections. Also commended in dysentry and chronic
catarrhs. The powdered root may be given, 12 grs. to 1/2 drachm. In an
infusion of 2 drachms to a pint of water or of white wine, it is an
agreeable stomachic, even to persons in health, to take a glass about an
hour before dinner. When the root is candied with sugar, it is convenient
to dyspeptic patients, who may carry it in a small box, in the pocket, and
take it as they find occasion.'

'On the Continent the candied rhizome is widely employed. The Turks use the
candied rhizome as a preventive against contagion.'

'The rhizome is largely used in native Oriental medicines for dyspepsia and
bronchitis and chewed as a cough lozenge, and from the earliest times has
been one of the most popular remedies of the native practitioners of India.
The candied root is sold as a favourite medicine in every Indian bazaar.'

'The powdered root is also esteemed in Ceylon and India as a vermifuge and
an insecticide, especially in relation to fleas. Sprinkled round a tree
attacked by white ants in Malay (Perak) it was found to destroy those that
were near the surface and prevented others from attacking the tree.'

'In powder, Calamus root on account of its spicy flavour serves as a
substitute for cinnamon, nutmeg and ginger.'

'It is said also to be used by snuff manufacturers and to scent
hair-powders and in tooth-powders, in the same way as orris.'

'The highly aromatic volatile oil is largely used in perfumery.'

'The oil is used by rectifiers to improve the flavour of gin and to give a
peculiar taste and fragrance to certain varieties of beer.'

'In the United States, Calamus was also formerly used by country people as
an ingredient in making wine bitters.'

'In Lithuania, the root is preserved with sugar-like angelica.'

'The young and tender inflorescence is often eaten by children for its
sweetness. In Holland, children use the rhizomes as chewing-gum and also
make pop-gun projectiles of them.'

King's 1898 Dispensatory: 'The root is carminative, slightly tonic, and
excitant, and forms a useful adjunct to other tonics and stimulants. It may
be used in cases of flatulent colic, atonic dyspepsia, feebleness of the
digestive organs, and to aid the action of cinchona or quinine in
intermittents.'

'It forms an excellent substitute, in syrup, for Godfrey's cordial. In
flatulent colic of infants it is best combined with magnesia.'

'Externally, it is a valuable application to indolent ulcers, and to keep
up the discharges from blistered surfaces and issues.'

'Dose of the infusion made by scalding 4 drachms of the root, coarsely
bruised, in 8 fluid ounces of water, from 4 to 6 fluid ounces; of the
powdered root, 20 to 40 grains; a tincture may be prepared from 1 part of
the root and 5 parts of alcohol. Dose, from 5 to 30 minims.'

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Tue Mar 9 15:31:15 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Experimenter's quotations
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.223115.0200.>

Dear Stovers

The following quote was sent to the list:

"He who takes the wrong path makes the journey thrice. Navigation is
more important than knowledge." David Whitfield

An experimenter always needs to be searching, searching, looking for the
right direction to take. If you start of in the wrong direction, it
will soon enough become apparent.

You can't turn around if you are not moving.

Thus initiative is more important than navigation or knowledge, for both
skill and learning are qualities that can easily be obtained if one
possess the virtue of initiative.

Sincerely
Crispin

From rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG Tue Mar 9 01:07:09 2004
From: rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: briquettes from retted biomass
In-Reply-To: <000001c4056f$dc59d500$1d5541db@adkarve>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.080709.0200.RSTANLEY@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>

AD, I wish it were so successful indeed. The issue is about retaining
fiber strength and carbon while letting the retting process soften the
fibers enough to become pliablke and not springy. We have devised simple
field tests for this but still have to do a lot of experiments on site
in every new area we visit. Mother nature is remarkably varied.

We too have had more than our share of mistakes and have been bailed out
by villagers we are" training"who generally figure it out very quickly
and come to optimise the resources according to their local market
demand. the more oily leaves such as eucalyptus greatly enhance both
teh ignition the temerature and teh aroma of the burn driving away
mosquitoes at the same time. Water hyacinth assires a verry long
duration low temp burn (steeping such as beans r keeping water hot
through the day/ evening. The variety of blends will exhaust and
astound you and someday we may just get the help to categorise it all
into all those nice western boxes we call science. By then I hope to
have it out there and fully "owned' by those who most need it.

Drying And when you are absolutely sure the material has dried, break
apart a sample and discover that you should probably wait another day!
Also, one can tell moisture far better with their lips than their
hands. Generally we dry down to 125 to 140 grams using an array of
grasses straws and leaves. Sawdust can make it lighter charcoal and more
welldecomposed material heavier. With an average volume of 5 sq x pi x
height of 7.5 cm less a center hole of 15mm radius, you arrive at
roughly 555 to 560 cc. Light wieght and almost absurd to consider that
tow of these compete with 1.2 kg of wood fuel. but its all about the
center hole which makes the briquette an improved stove in it own right.

Kobus Venter and I have been hard at work He far more than I in fact
developing a gasifier stive for the briquette We have altered the shape
and have generated blue flames in his ceramic lined stove which he is
revising with Crispin New Dawn to a far less expensive and lighter
wieght model. Look for it is a store near you soon !! (No thats the
amerrican hypoe coming out (still can't shake that after 30 years out
here !!) Seriously we will be marketing it through our website. We have
produced four manuals on the process (press cnstruction, briquette
produciton a trainees manual and theory and apps from around the world
if youu might be interested please check out our website.
www.legacyfound.org
I woud highly recommend that you package and produce such packaged
information about your research and sell it internationally through your
web site. I would also highly recommend that we all consider this avenue
as individuals witha product and as a Stoived newsgroup. The latter
could take a 10% commission to fund research and collaborative efforts
etc etc. You do not have to be a big business to do this. See www.pay
pal.com

Is your new press a screw type or ram type. and screw it up every time
we go to a new area --

adkarve wrote:

>Thanks Richard for reminding me of the process so successfully being used by you. I tried your process once but the briquettes failed to burn, because most probably the process of decomposition had progressed too far and that there was hardly any carbon left in the biomass to burn. Do you decompose the entire biomass or do you decompose only a part of the biomass and mix it with undecomposed biomass before briquetting it? We have now acquired a heavier briquette extruder, and with a proper die, it should not be difficult for us to produce a hollow briquette with it. You also mentioned that the biomass has to be chopped up or shredded. What kind of equipment do you use for it? Do your briquettes burn as cleanly as high quality charcoal? Recently, in Seattle, I saw a number of stoves which were claimed by their respective inventers to be cleanly burning, but most of them (i.e. stoves) produced a bit of smoke (more than good quality charcoal).
>Yours
>A.D.Karve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: richard stanley
>
>
>
>
>

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Tue Mar 9 16:56:32 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Experimenter's quotations
In-Reply-To: <000501c40615$79347f60$e49dfea9@home>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.175632.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

Well put!

in a previous message, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott on 3/9/04 16:31 at
crispin@newdawn.sz wrote:

> Dear Stovers
>
> The following quote was sent to the list:
>
> "He who takes the wrong path makes the journey thrice. Navigation is
> more important than knowledge." David Whitfield
>
> An experimenter always needs to be searching, searching, looking for the
> right direction to take. If you start of in the wrong direction, it
> will soon enough become apparent.
>
> You can't turn around if you are not moving.
>
> Thus initiative is more important than navigation or knowledge, for both
> skill and learning are qualities that can easily be obtained if one
> possess the virtue of initiative.
>
> Sincerely
> Crispin
>

David Whitfield V.
Director Ejecutivo Fundaci?n CEDESOL.
Centro de Desarrollo en Energ?a Solar.
Av. Petrolera Km. 0 Cochabamba ? Bolivia.
Tel: (591 ? 4) 4258093.
Cel: (591) 77424269 m?bil.
La Paz - Bolivia.
Tel: (591 - 2) 2414882.

solarl@zuper.net.

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Mar 9 19:11:51 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Starting fires with non-edible combustible oils
Message-ID: <WED.10.MAR.2004.054151.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Paul,
the endosperm (i.e. the white meat inside the shell) of the physic nut
(Jatropha curcas) and also that of the castor bean (Ricinus communis) burn
if you applied a match to them.
Yours
A.D.Karve

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Tue Mar 9 19:38:16 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: FW: WISIONS_
=?ISO-8859-1?B?lg==?=_New_project_of_Wuppertal_Institute_asks_for_participa
tion
In-Reply-To: <20040309224845.31975.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.203816.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

Hi all,
Some of you may be interested in this development pasted in below
_____________________

From: WISIONS INFO <info@wisions.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:40:33 +0100
Subject: WISIONS ? New project of Wuppertal Institute asks for participation

Dear colleague,

As an expert in what happens in the world of sustainable development, the
Wuppertal Institute would like to inform you about WISIONS.

WISIONS is a new initiative of the Wuppertal Institute for Climate,
Environment and Energy, carried out with the support of the Swiss-based
foundation ProEvolution to foster practical sustainable energy and resource
efficiency projects.

http://www.wisions.net

The objective is to combine spreading knowledge about existing successful
projects with progressing the realisation of new project ideas.
Two fields of action will be addressed: SEPS and PREP.

SEPS, the Sustainable Energy Project Support, aims at identifying promising
project ideas on a world-wide scale and seeks to overcome the existing
barriers by providing technical and other support. The projects have to be
in a stage prior to implementation and will be judged according to a set of
ambitious criteria and the quality of a consistent implementation strategy.

PREP, the Promotion of Resource Efficiency Projects, has the key objectives
of publishing and promoting good practice in energy and resource efficiency.
People around the world are asked to present their ?good practice examples?.
The topic and the target groups thus will vary regularly with the objective
of addressing a wide range of issues and stake-holders. Right now the first
topic "resource-efficiency in the construction? sector with its main
emphasis on the efficient use of energy and renewables is starting.

The most convincing projects will be promoted to multipliers, political
decision-makers, scientists and activists. By doing this, they will get the
publicity they deserve and provide certain ideas worldwide to improve the
efficient use of resources.

Aware of your knowledge and experience in renewable energy, energy or
resource efficiency, your contacts could be very helpful in bringing new
ideas into action.
So let all those know of WISIONS who may exactly have what we look for: a
promising project concept in renewable energy or energy efficiency and good
practice examples that could sample for other projects and regions.

If you are positive about our project we would like to ask you to spread the
initiative's idea via forwarding this e-mail to appropriate persons or
target groups, putting it on your homepages or even make some publicity in
your newsletter.

Thank you very much for your backing.

We are looking forward to here from you.

On behalf of the WISIONS Team
Carmen Dienst and Holger Wallbaum

For more information about WISIONS background, current topics, selection
criteria, application rules, and initiative?s progress, please visit the
website at:
http://www.wisions.net

*************************************************************
WISIONS Info
Email: info@wisions.net
Internet: www.wisions.net
Fax: +49 - (0)202 - 2492-198
Phone: +49 - (0)202 - 2492 - 252

Wuppertal Institute for Climate, Environment and Energy
Doeppersberg 19
D-42103 Wuppertal
Postbox: 100480
D-42004 Wuppertal

*****************************************************************
Carmen Dienst
Wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin
Forschungsgruppe
Zuk?nftige Energie- und Mobilit?tsstrukturen
Wuppertal Institut f?r Klima, Umwelt und Energie GmbH

Carmen Dienst
Research Fellow
Research Group - Future Energy and Transport Structures
Wuppertal Institute for Climate, Environment and Energy

Doeppersberg 19
D-42103 Wuppertal
Postbox: 10 04 80/ D-42004 Wuppertal

e-mail: carmen.dienst@wupperinst.org
Phone: +49 - (0) 202 - 2492-203
Fax: +49 - (0) 202 - 2492-198
www.wupperinst.org

---

solarl@zuper.net.

From robdeutsch at ONLINE.COM.KH Tue Mar 9 21:00:39 2004
From: robdeutsch at ONLINE.COM.KH (Robert Deutsch)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Shredder Photos
Message-ID: <TUE.9.MAR.2004.180039.0800.ROBDEUTSCH@ONLINE.COM.KH>

Dear Listers,

I've had several requests for photos of our homemade shredder, but Listservs
don't like attachments and I haven't mastered the art of website... so if
people are interested pls drop me a note and I'll e-mail you a few snap
shots.

Warmest regards,

Robert-

From fakdag at EIE.GOV.TR Wed Mar 10 02:07:39 2004
From: fakdag at EIE.GOV.TR (funda akdag)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <WED.10.MAR.2004.090739.0200.FAKDAG@EIE.GOV.TR>

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Wed Mar 10 02:23:34 2004
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Shredder Photos
Message-ID: <WED.10.MAR.2004.022334.0500.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Robert,

Send the photos to tmiles@trmiles.com and we'll put them up on the stoves
website at http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

Kind regards,

Tom Miles

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:00:39 -0800, Robert Deutsch
<robdeutsch@ONLINE.COM.KH> wrote:

>Dear Listers,
>
>I've had several requests for photos of our homemade shredder, but
Listservs
>don't like attachments and I haven't mastered the art of website... so if
>people are interested pls drop me a note and I'll e-mail you a few snap
>shots.
>
>Warmest regards,
>
>Robert-

From K.Prasad at TUE.NL Wed Mar 10 06:21:25 2004
From: K.Prasad at TUE.NL (Prasad, K.)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Need the poor always be with us???
Message-ID: <WED.10.MAR.2004.122125.0100.K.PRASAD@TUE.NL>

Dear Tom

I must say I missed you and such pithy comments in the Seattle meeting. Hope
there will be an opportunity to see you one of these days.

Vis-a-vis the poor and our technical solutions to cookstoves, it maybe
worthwhile going back some 100 or more years back to the automobile
industry.

It all started with replacing the horse with an IC engine. That was
expensive. When one bought such an auto, one also hired a chauffeur (as the
driver is called in this part of the world). Things have changed in the last
100 years.

The automobile comes in different sizes, different colours, different
prices,etc.etc., to suit the diversity of affordability, needs, etc., etc..
I'm afraid the woodstove trade has not learnt this trick as yet.

Some designs cannot reach, maybe, the poorest of the poor, but that doesn't
mean that it has no room in this wide and diverse world of ours. one size
fits all is no more than invitation to remain stagnant.

Yours
Prasad

-----Original Message-----
From: TBReed [mailto:tombreed@COMCAST.NET]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 3:40 PM
To: STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: [STOVES] Need the poor always be with us???

Dear Y'All:

Paul says Crispin said...

There is an attitude in the stoves list that if any solution costs money it
must be discarded.

Checking the web on "poor always be with us", I found:

Reading: from the Christian Scriptures, the Gospel of Matthew 26:6-11
While Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper, a woman
approached Him

with an alabaster jar of very expensive fragrant oil. She poured it on His
head as He was

reclining at the table. When the disciples saw it, they were indignant. "Why
this waste?"

they asked. "This might have been sold for a great deal and given to the
poor." But

Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She
has done a

noble thing for Me. You always have the poor with you, but you do not always
have

Me."

Will the Poor Always be With Us?

A Sermon Delivered on November 10, 2002

The Reverend Axel H. Gehrmann, Unitarian Universalist Church, Urbana,
Illinois 61801-3221

As Always, Onward and upward, TOM REED BEF

> Stovers:
>
> On 25 Feb I posted the message below. Really, not any replies. We had
> some discussion about bio-oils as FUELS, but not as "starters" of fires of
> other materials. I am sure that turpentine and "mineral spirits" and
paint
> thinner could be used.
>
> But I was hoping for some plant that is or could be grown locally so the
> local people could gather, crush, squeeze, press or somehow get a fluid
(or
> solid) that could be used as a starter, that is, ignited with one match
and
> to burn for 30 to 60 seconds with a nice flame.
>
> I am NOT looking for oils, etc for "lighting, as in illumination". But
> for lighting a fire, as in a fire starter.
>
> Gene Schultz has sent me some photocopy materials, but at first glance the
> closest reference is to oils for lighting = illumination.
>
> I am thinking of experimenting with some mixtures, such as corn oil mixed
> with kerosene.
>
> Any assistance will be appreciated.
>
> Paul
>
> ******* old message is below ****************
> Ron mentioned this topic (below) and I hope that someone can provide some
> leads.
>
> In the case of the top-lit gasifiers, I find it important to have a
> conveniently volatile "starter" to get the initial fire (for pyrolysis)
> going. I cannot directly pour on a liquid, because it will drip too low
> into the fuel bed. But I can put the liquid onto something (I have used
> wood chips, corn cobs, and char-pieces very successfully), and then place
> that into the top of the fuel to be lighted easily. A single match was
> usually enough to start my stove.
>
> Among my successful experiments:
>
> 1. Citronella (Tiki-torch fuel) oil.
>
> 2. Kerosene (parafin, in many countries) (but use VERY sparingly or you
> will get black soot in the initial flames until the kerosene is gone.)
>
> 3. Alcohol (95% and better)
>
> 4. Gel-fuel (can even be squirted on directly because it does not drip.)
>
> (5. Some regular cooking oil and meat fat did NOT give me as good of a
> start-up flame as I wanted).
>
> :-)) I remember chatting with Crispin (maybe 2 years ago) about lighting
> my early stoves with citronella in wood chips, and he (jokingly) said that
> I "cheated" with the starting of the fire because rural folk would not
have
> such volatile substances for fire starting.
>
> So, if a sufficient number and variety of "starting materials" can be
named
> (and have low cost and wide geographic distribution), then all of us could
> have easier ways to start our fires (even Crispin :-)) ).
>
> Paul
>
> At 09:11 PM 2/24/04 -0700, Ron Larson wrote:
> > 2. Back to the world of "candles", I hope we can hear from some of
the
> >few "stoves" list members who have in the past talked about the benefits
of
> >using seed oils - for both lighting and cooking (and maybe together). I
> >think there are some natural "seed" products which are solid at room
> >temperature - but many/most are I guess liquid. There are many
non-edible
> >oils that can be combusted very cleanly and come at low or no cost (if
> >picked in the field).
> >
> >Ron
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Wed Mar 10 13:33:16 2004
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Shredder Photos
Message-ID: <WED.10.MAR.2004.133316.0500.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Robert's photos of low cost shredders in Cambodia are now online at:
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Deutsch/shredders.htm
l
and linked from
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves

Tom

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:23:34 -0500, Tom Miles <tmiles@TRMILES.COM> wrote:

>Robert,
>
>Send the photos to tmiles@trmiles.com and we'll put them up on the stoves
>website at http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Tom Miles
>
>
>
>On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:00:39 -0800, Robert Deutsch
><robdeutsch@ONLINE.COM.KH> wrote:
>
>>Dear Listers,
>>
>>I've had several requests for photos of our homemade shredder, but
>Listservs
>>don't like attachments and I haven't mastered the art of website... so if
>>people are interested pls drop me a note and I'll e-mail you a few snap
>>shots.
>>
>>Warmest regards,
>>
>>Robert-

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Wed Mar 10 16:08:20 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Tinder 2..., Fire starters
Message-ID: <WED.10.MAR.2004.230820.0200.>

Dear Stovers

Since I have been quoted twice saying that citronella was perhaps, shall
I say, a 'crafty' way of lighting a fire I should comment further.

There are a lot of things you could use to light a fire and people
should use what is available and safe. Paraffin (kerosene) is
notoriously unsafe and there are thousands of cases if chemical
pneumonia each year in South Africa caused by children swallowing some
paraffin and inhaling the fumes of it into their lungs.

When we advocate a fire starter, its smokiness or non-renewable nature
is probably not as important as whether or not it is toxic to children.

Tom and others mentioned:

Tinder
Mosses
Shavings etc.
Matches?
Fatwood
Vegetable oil
Animal fat
Kerosene
Alcohols (there are lots of different ones produced from sugar cane)
Methanol (wood),
Ethanol
Isopropanol
"Dri-gas"
Turpentine
"Mineral spirits"
Paint thinners
Corn oil mixed with kerosene
Citronella (Tiki-torch fuel) oil
Gel-fuel
Candles
Seed oils
Non-edible oils

I left out others which are really wood or bark.

Think about which of these you would rather have your child drink and
cough out. Would you leave a pint of alcohol around the kitchen? I have
been using a little methanol this week as a fire starter and once I blew
the top off the stove and gave Jim Ross' and my legs a good hot blast.
Oops. It is too dangerous to let children use, in my opinion. And if
they drink it (which is also common) there are serious problems.

The Gel-fuel is not available here but I think it would be pretty hard
to swallow much of that and it is not so volatile. Christa Roth uses
it. The World Bank is putting it on the Malawian market below cost to
attract people away from wood.

Perhaps we need something from a vegetable origin that tastes terrible
but smells nice when burned.

As a Boy Scout I tend towards the 'purist' approach and use wood as the
starter but there are good reasons for Tom to use alcohol as he is
trying to light the fire inside a closed room and not have any smoke.
For convenience I normally use newspaper because I feel that if a person
can't light the fire with newspapers, there are many people who will
fail to light the stove properly. Perhaps I haven't made that clear: If
the stove (or the fuel) is so hard to light that you can't do it with
newspapers or other commmon rubbish, the technology is probably going to
have rapid acceptance or performance problems.

Paraffin soaked blocks are a bit messy and I always get some on my
hands. I don't want to clean up my mess and spills and wash, I just
want to light the fire. I especially don't want to light my fingers. I
admit I have a soft spot for a stove that can be lit with shavings or
grass, twigs and a match. A little smoke or not.

Regards
Crispin completing a long week of lighting practice (for Friday), test
firing and boiling in the hot sun.

PS I admit that I burned two fingers this week but that was from putting
out my shirt which I set on fire while welding.

From robdeutsch at ONLINE.COM.KH Wed Mar 10 12:46:54 2004
From: robdeutsch at ONLINE.COM.KH (Robert Deutsch)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Shredded photos from Cambodia
Message-ID: <WED.10.MAR.2004.094654.0800.ROBDEUTSCH@ONLINE.COM.KH>

Dear Listers,

Thanks to everyone requesting photos of our homemade shredder. Tom has
offered to post them to the website shortly. Pls check at
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

Please keep in mind that our machine was made for preparing biomass for
composting, so maybe not directly appropriate for briquetting, stoves etc...
(unless you are doing partials composting to soften fibers before
briquetting). We often run coconut husks and bagasse mixed with garden,
market and household waste.

We also have made an inclined bed sifting machine in local machine shops
which is working very well for the last few years for sifting finished
compost into three grades (0-7 mm, 7-15mm and oversize, capacity about
4m3/hour). Photos available on request.

Best regards,

Robert Deutsch, Advisor
Community Sanitation and Recycling Organization
Phnom Penh, Kingdom of Cambodia

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Wed Mar 10 21:13:56 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: One candle of heat
In-Reply-To: <003601c3faf1$002e4300$7e40d6d2@q2n0f4>
Message-ID: <WED.10.MAR.2004.221356.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

Hi Karabi,
Quite interesting information you provided on lead in candle wicks. Who
would have thought . . .

in a previous message, Dutta on 2/24/04 12:12 at karabi_d@sify.com wrote:

> Stovers,
> I have been following this interesting exchange of notes on 1 candle of
> heat, which will also provide light. The idea of making a cup of tea by
> candle light and on candle light ( flame I guess) sounds academically
> speaking quite feasible as calculated by Andrew Heggie.
>
> Although National Candle Association (USA) have voluntarily agreed more than
> 25 years ago not to use lead wicks there are no laws banning its manufacture
> in USA so approximately 10% of the candles made in USA still have lead
> wicks.In the Far East candles are generally made with lead wicks.
>
> Burning just one average leaded-wick candle for only four hours will raise
> the lead levels to 6.2 micrograms per cubic metre in the room with the
> candle and to 2 ?g/m3 throughout the rest of the house. The US National Air
> Quality Standard for lead set by the EPA is 1.5 ?ig/m3.
--

solarl@zuper.net.

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Wed Mar 10 23:01:28 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Shredded photos from Cambodia
Message-ID: <THU.11.MAR.2004.000128.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Robert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Deutsch" <robdeutsch@ONLINE.COM.KH>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:46 PM
Subject: [STOVES] Shredded photos from Cambodia

> Dear Listers,
>
> Thanks to everyone requesting photos of our homemade shredder. Tom has
> offered to post them to the website shortly. Pls check at
> http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/
>
This is a smashingly resourceful design! :-)

> Please keep in mind that our machine was made for preparing biomass for
> composting, so maybe not directly appropriate for briquetting, stoves
etc...
> (unless you are doing partials composting to soften fibers before
> briquetting). We often run coconut husks and bagasse mixed with garden,
> market and household waste.
>
The apparent "smashing effect" would make it more of a hammer mill, rather
than a chipper. It should do a reasonable job of opening up fibre so that it
would matt together in the desired briquette shape.

Smashing and hammer milling takes more power than chipping, because more
work is done on the biomass. Very roughly, HP required is proportional to
new surface generated.

Most of the work is done at the ends of the blades. You could radically
change the output characteristics of the feed very simply: Just weld
vertical "anvil bars" to the sidewall of the cylinder. Use 3 or 5 bars,
definitely not 2 or 4.

Sharpening your blades will also change the output characteristics of the
discharge product also.... you will tend to get chunks, rather than "smashed
fibres".

It is my general guess that this mill could potentially give an excellent
"smashed fibre" for subsequent briquetting, but that it would not be very
good for producing wood chips for a gasifier operation.

Uniformity of feed size is very important for a gasifier, and this style of
machine would tend to give a product with a "long size range."

In your write-up, you sugggest that the engine is 18 HP. The one in the
picture would seem to be an engine that develops about 8 HP at a nominal
2,200 RPM. Could you please verify this?

Your use of an automobile rear end as a "right angle gearbox is very
resourceful." I am puzzled, however, by the details of your drive
arrangement. A rear end typically has about a 2.5 to 1 reduction. If you
applied the engine input power to the "wheel end" of the rear end, the
system would be simple to build, but this would give you about 4,500 RPM on
your hammer mill shaft. On the other hand, if the "wheel end" was driving
the hammer mill shaft, its speed would be about 800 RPM, which seems about
right, but there would be a need for a horizontal shaft with a steady
bearing to permit mounting of a driven pulley directly below the engine
pulley. Could you please clarify what you have done here?

What is the largest diameter of branch that you are able to chop with this
machine?

Congratulations on a very clever and resourceful piece of machinery!

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

From jeff.forssell at CFL.SE Thu Mar 11 04:21:34 2004
From: jeff.forssell at CFL.SE (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: edible combustible oils = magic trick
Message-ID: <THU.11.MAR.2004.102134.0100.JEFF.FORSSELL@CFL.SE>

Couldn't resist sharing a great "magic" trick which I often do around Xmas:

Preparation:

Take a nut (I use almond) and with a sharp knife split it into 2 mm crosssection sticks.

Get a large apple and punch out some long white cylinders with a core cutter by pushing it through the meat but NOT the core.

Trim the cylinder ends so there is no apple skin showing.

Stick the almond stick into the end of the apple cylinder s? it stick out like a normal wick.

Extra: Find som wax candle of about the same size as decoys.

Performance:

Preferrably dim the lights - rather common around christmas. Light some candles. Make some small talk to get peoples attention as you stand near a burning candle. "Imagine if you could 'eat?light like plants do!" (This works best in swedish where "ljus" means both "light" & "candle")

Take out the "apple candle" Light the almond wick which immediately starts burning and it looks like the "candle" is burning!

Make sure everybodies looking and pop it into your mouth and chew it up!

It's a real show stopper!

I haven't burned my tongue or gum, but see to it that you close your mouth quickly and start chewing. The usual caveats: to be done at your own risk. I won't be held responsible (unless it's a success!)

/Jeff Forssell

> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Stoves Discussion List [mailto:STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG]On
> Behalf Of adkarve
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:12 AM
> To: STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Subject: [STOVES] Starting fires with non-edible combustible oils
>
>
> Dear Paul,
> the endosperm (i.e. the white meat inside the shell) of the physic nut
> (Jatropha curcas) and also that of the castor bean (Ricinus
> communis) burn
> if you applied a match to them.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 11 22:30:56 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Castor bean and Jatropha,
plus "Thanks" was Re: [STOVES] Starting fires with non-edible
combustible oils
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040311212845.01ba9640@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <THU.11.MAR.2004.213056.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Stovers,

Thanks to all who replied about this [former] topic of "Starting fires with
non-edible combustible oils". I have taken notes, printed out, and will be
testing several. Crispin's comments on safety were well received. Peter's
comment (at bottom) did not go to the entire list, so I have included it.

My close involvement with the top-lit gasifiers sometimes is forgotten,
even by me. I have been looking for, and have been directed to, several
"starters" that have the volatile nature to light and then spread easily
across the top of the fuel, but send most of the heat upward, away from the
main fuel. That really is quite different from the traditional bottom-lit
fires where the heat goes into the kindling, tinder and main fuel.

My trial of shavings of fatwood were not sufficiently successful for me to
recommend it for the top-lit fires. It burns so well when hot, but as a
loose shaving it does not seem to sustain itself (in 35 F degree Illinois
late-winter). Perhaps to be expected.

To me, among the most interesting responses are the castor oil plant (bean,
oils, seed-cake, etc) and the Jatropha plant because they seem to be among
the most volatile of the "crops" that can be widely grown (versus
collecting mosses and barks or tapping into certain trees or manufacturing
the "...ols" from crops). For people to be able to individually (or at
least locally by some farmer) grow their source of "fire starting materials
for new types of stoves" could play an important role in the acceptance or
failure of a stove.

Comments about castor bean cultivation and Jatropha cultivation and ease of
obtaining the volatiles would be appreciated.

And we anxiously await Tom Reed's posting about some new "fire starter"
(appropriate for top-lit gasifiers).

Thanks again to everyone. The "Stoves List Serve" really is a wonderful
group of people.

Paul

At 09:35 PM 3/11/04 +1000, Peter Verhaart wrote:
>Paul,
>
> I think any vegetable oil will work as a fire starter as long as
> it is absorbed in something porous that will also burn easily. Coconut
> choir should do or kapok or cotton wool or poor quality paper. They will
> not light as easily as something soaked in kerosene or essential oils (I
> would guess), due to lower vapour pressure.
>Oil pressed from seeds of Ricinus communis (castor oil) can also be used
>as a lubricant and the press cake could provide any number of secret
>agents with an abundant supply of ricin. And it is NATURAL.
>
>I enjoyed meeting you at the Seattle conference.
>
>Peter Verhaart

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Fri Mar 12 00:52:04 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Castor bean and Jatropha,
plus "Thanks" was Re: [STOVES] Starting fires with non-edible
combustible oils
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040311211415.020a5100@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.MAR.2004.235204.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 09:30:56PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:

(snip)
>
> Comments about castor bean cultivation and Jatropha cultivation and ease of
> obtaining the volatiles would be appreciated.
>

Along the lines of safety, don't forget that while the castor bean is easy
to grow, even in the north, it is *extremely* deadly. It's what ricin is
extracted from.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hotspringfreak at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 12 00:52:55 2004
From: hotspringfreak at HOTMAIL.COM (Chris Smith)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Castor bean and Jatropha,
plus "Thanks" was Re: [STOVES] Starting fires with non-edible
combustible oils
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.005255.0500.HOTSPRINGFREAK@HOTMAIL.COM>

Hi Paul,

"My trial of shavings of fatwood were not sufficiently successful for me >
to recommend it for the top-lit fires. It burns so well when hot, but as a
loose shaving it does not seem to sustain itself (in 35 F degree Illinois
late-winter). Perhaps to be expected."

I also had poor success with fatwood shavings (at the same ambient temp.a
nd down to -20 F for me - in fact colder air has greater density) but it's
not the temp, it's how the fatwood is burned. Split a stick into thinner
pieces (watch out for splinters!) and burn a small pile (with air spaces)
on top of your fuel bed. An intense fire guaranteed to ignite your fuel
bed. Using smaller sticks and "twigs" decreases the black pitchy smoke
volume, but larger fatwood sticks work just as well, but with taller flare
flames and more black smoke. Still it's wood igniting wood, which was
Crispin's point.

Fatwood is also useful in consuming less burnable fuels. I intersperse an
occasional fat wood twig among other types to get Rocket stoves roaring
when the tend to only char available fuel. I agree though, fatwood
scrapings don't get it -- I meant to say split fatwood sticks.

I want to also point out that Castor beans should make Crispin's deadly to
childrens list. It is very poisonous and cultivation shouldn't be
encouraged for families with small children. However, I grew up with one
in my yard -- Mom always pointed out it could kill me, so I took care.
Not to be recommended though as a yard firestarter plant to cultivate.
The world's deadliest poison (besides plutonium) is Ricin, made from
Castor beans.

best,
Chris Smith

From rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG Fri Mar 12 01:43:34 2004
From: rstanley at LEGACYFOUND.ORG (richard stanley)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Notes on the EPA (Not Ethos) Stoves Workshop - Day 1
In-Reply-To: <02ad01c3efa0$fbae0f00$366d0443@net>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.084334.0200.RSTANLEY@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>

Ron et al.

Your concise coverage of the ETHOS and the follow on EPA meeting is
greatly appreciated. I wanted to attend but could not afford the ticket
or the time (we were then just moving to Johannesburg from Kampala.) .
The data is great but where will it go from there: The few of us run
back to our facilities and carry the ideas a bit forward but It appears
to me that we are not "thinking smart" as a group about how to really
spread the information while adequately supporting ourselves.

Most all have publications and products they are working on. So few are
actually getting those out where they belong and earning anything for
it, save BEV, Approvecho, the recent addition of choppers from Kansas,
and handful of others, relative to what passes through these sites.

The stoves newsgroup could, as it does now advertise these technologies,
and it could bundle the information into salable publications (or leave
that to some enterprising editor) but of course that takes money and
management time. So...

WHY NOT ESTABLISH A SIMPLE COMMISSION (Policy structure admin and
tracking) MECHANISM -FOR-ANYTHING-SOLD THROUGH (vetted by[?] and and
relevant to) THE STOVES AND GASSIFICATION NEWSGROUPS ?

PAY PAL.com is a common tool used by most all Ebayers and many of us
small fry. We use it and it provides really good tracking mechanisms
and greatly facilitiates payments. It may appear to be adding a new
layer but you hire people to handle that part. What we all get in return
is a way to eacy earn money to further our own work with greater
outreach and the site management gets to have its costs covered (for
the first time perhaps) while expanding the important service this site
provides.

Lets use the power of the tool in front of us to generate the income to
get the word out.

I'll make you a offer to start it off: Our global giant (of four) Legacy
Foundation, sells four manuals on the briquette technology (Basic
equipment construction, production, Training/project management, and
Theory and Applications) in the form of electronic download able PDFs,
CDs and bound Hardcopies. We provide consulting services for project
design, training, training of trainers and awareness media support. We
will soon be selling plan of other more advanced presses and a thresher
masher chopper device.

And I would bet Yen to Chapattis, that most all of us have many such
resources and more all in your own area of expertise, sitting around on
your shelves.

I would happily offer you 10% on any information product which is sold
through you. We would as well, offer some percentage (haven't worked
that out yet) of any sale of the plans for more advanced technologies
and of any training or TOT or awareness media consultancy generated
through the STOVES site. But heck, it is not up to us to tell you what
we want. That would be up to the group-determined policy.

And of course, like the best laid plans of mice and men, it will have to
be reviewed from time to time. We do not need to make an international
development document out of it: We can agree to set some figure and
basic guidelines and include a tracking and correction mechanism to fine
tune it along the way. Its all there at our finger tips folks.

Am I a nice public spirited guy: of course not. I just want to gain
revenue to do what I do best, which I hope, is a useful and right thing
with what I've got to offer. Who is any different amongst us ? Please
give it a think and lets thrash it out-as a group-to develop a workable
group-wide policy with practical numbers and a workable management
scenario.

We can be waking up in the morning to find a order for a few CDs or a
manual here and there and a notification that you have earned a few
bucks while you slept. That's not bad. You have the other choice of
going to work on (another), ten stage (suck 'em dry) grant application
process for possible work with XYZ agency a year and a half down the road.

The choice is clear: We have the mechanism and the readership and the
incredible body of knowledge here in this grouop, Let them come to us.

Best regards,

Richard Stanley

>
>

From ventfory at IAFRICA.COM Fri Mar 12 06:25:07 2004
From: ventfory at IAFRICA.COM (Kobus)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.132507.0200.VENTFORY@IAFRICA.COM>

Paul

Let me be the first to correct your figures after reading the excellent report by Prof. Grover, but I also know a bit about ceramic fibres - from personal experience. The
temperatures a typical ceramic fibre cast material can withstand is 1300?C
not 13000?C, also obtainable in the 1600?C range in RSA - just costs a bit more. For mineral wool and glass fibre I suggest removing some
noughts at the end too (700?C and 450?C respectively and respectfully).

Contact me off-list and I'll put you in touch with a local supplier (RSA).

Regards

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: 15 February 2004 23:42
Subject: [STOVES] Ceramic fiber

> Stovers,
>
> I was reading at the following website:
>
> http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Dream/paper-grover.htm
>
> which said
> &&&&&&&&&&&
> Apart from achieving complete combustion, it is also desired to minimize
> these losses which can be achieved by using proper light-weight and
> effective insulation. For this insulation an optimum use of ceramic fibre
> blanket of 25 mm thick is recommend for a "Dream Stove".
> Ceramic fibre blankets have very low thermal conductivity, about 16% of
any
> dense refractory material, are light weight (65 - 192 kg/m3) and extremely
> cost effective. The relative cost of ceramic fibre blanket of 25mm
> thickness is about 20 percent of an equivalent 135 mm dense refractory.
> Ceramic fibres can withstand temperatures up to 13000 C compared to
mineral
> wool upto 7000 C and glass fibre upto 4500 C. Use of ceramic fibre can
> drastically improve the performance of a cookstove.
>
> &&&&&&&&&&&&& end of quote &&&&&&&
>
> Can someone please give me some info on ceramic fiber and how to get it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Fri Mar 12 09:28:58 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (tombreed@COMCAST.NET)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:58 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.142858.0000.>

Dear Paul, Kobus and all;

In previous years I have beat the drum for appropriate insulation on stoves and given up with the mud stove people.

Dense ceramics have a moderately high thermal conductivity and a high mass/heat capacity, so much of the eary heat of the biomass is required to "cook the stove" as well as the food.

Fibrous ceramics have low mass and very low thermal conductivity. The casting industry uses a vacuum formed pressed cylinder extensively to pour molten steel/bronze/aluminum into molds. They are called "riser sleeves" and are available (at least) in 30 cm tall by 7.5 cm up to 30 cm OD, with 1.2 cm wall thickness. They can easily be cut with a knife and formed to other shapes. They cost $1-$4 at retail, depending on size. I have made dozens of experimental stoves with riser sleeves. A liquid for rigidizing the final product is available.

Some (spun mullite) can withstand 1600C; others much less.

Glass wool (fibreglas) is only good for the outer insulation of stoves; mineral wool is better. The base material is cheaper, but performance much worse. But I haven't seen them vacuum formed into the self standing riser sleeves.

Go visit your local casting foundries and see what the pros do.

Yours truly,

TOM REED BEF
> Paul
>
> Let me be the first to correct your figures after reading the excellent report
> by Prof. Grover, but I also know a bit about ceramic fibres - from personal
> experience. The
> temperatures a typical ceramic fibre cast material can withstand is 1300°C
> not 13000°C, also obtainable in the 1600°C range in RSA - just costs a bit more.
> For mineral wool and glass fibre I suggest removing some
> noughts at the end too (700°C and 450°C respectively and respectfully).
>
> Contact me off-list and I'll put you in touch with a local supplier (RSA).
>
> Regards
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: 15 February 2004 23:42
> Subject: [STOVES] Ceramic fiber
>
>
> > Stovers,
> >
> > I was reading at the following website:
> >
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Dream/paper-grover.htm
> >
> > which said
> > &&&&&&&&&&&
> > Apart from achieving complete combustion, it is also desired to minimize
> > these losses which can be achieved by using proper light-weight and
> > effective insulation. For this insulation an optimum use of ceramic fibre
> > blanket of 25 mm thick is recommend for a "Dream Stove".
> > Ceramic fibre blankets have very low thermal conductivity, about 16% of
> any
> > dense refractory material, are light weight (65 - 192 kg/m3) and extremely
> > cost effective. The relative cost of ceramic fibre blanket of 25mm
> > thickness is about 20 percent of an equivalent 135 mm dense refractory.
> > Ceramic fibres can withstand temperatures up to 13000 C compared to
> mineral
> > wool upto 7000 C and glass fibre upto 4500 C. Use of ceramic fibre can
> > drastically improve the performance of a cookstove.
> >
> > &&&&&&&&&&&&& end of quote &&&&&&&
> >
> > Can someone please give me some info on ceramic fiber and how to get it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From ronallarson at QWEST.NET Fri Mar 12 09:46:41 2004
From: ronallarson at QWEST.NET (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: "stoves" as a commercial information clearing house
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.074641.0700.RONALLARSON@QWEST.NET>

Richard:

Since your message today on marketing sent to the list was also
specifically addressed directly to myself, I will take a stab at a first
response:

1. I wonder if we have any legal limitations with REPP as our host. Tom
Miles?

2. There are some members of the group already doing something somewhat
similar - Aprovecho sells plans and consulting services. See
http://www.aprovecho.net/at/atindex.htm
Also Tom Reed has a good selection: http://www.woodgas.com/
Crispin's is a good one:
http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/opening.htm
Groups like ITDG http://www.itdg.org/html/energy/expertise.htm and HEDON
http://www.hedon.info/goto.php/ImprovedCookstove
And your own Legacy Foundation; http://www.legacyfound.org/

3. I have a high regard for one site much larger than all of the above put
together (10,000 products) - Steve Troy (main organizer of the Sustainable
Resources Conferences)
http://www.sustainablevillage.com/servlet/display/products/byCat/5/all/all

4. One thought is to ask everyone with an existing site to at least let
that site be better known right now. I apologize for leaving some out that
I should have listed.

5. I would think Tom Miles would know a way to collect all these into one
easy "Yellow Pages" location. Tom?

6. Anyone wanting to take this on with a long term commitment should also
identify themselves (count me out).

7. I fear that 10% won't cut it for most persons able to do a good job of
passing on the orders - Others?

8. I also fear that "stoves" could lose the value we do seem to have with
persons like Peter Scott coming in as the very next message after yours -
asking about ideas to improve abrasion resistance on a concrete block (now I
have to respond there as well to prove the system is working). If we
become dependent on selling that sort of response, I fear we could lose the
good momenum we have as an impartial zero-cost (probably often wrong) means
of trying to assist in the overall goal of getting better stoves and fuels
out to individuals and groups that can't possibly even reach us, even if
they knew of us (for reasons of funds, language, web access, etc). Now at
least, if someone perceives something wrong they are able to get it out
pretty sidely.

9. But we do also need to be cognizant of the fact that "stoves" relies on
someone else's paying the bills - so this is to give Tom Miles a chance to
also explain that situation.

10. Richard - Thanks for bringing up a new information-dissemination
topic - which is an important part of getting faster progress toward better
stoves/fuels.

Ron

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender: The Stoves Discussion List <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Poster: richard stanley <rstanley@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>
> Subject: Re: Notes on the EPA (Not Ethos) Stoves Workshop - Day 1
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Ron et al.
>
> Your concise coverage of the ETHOS and the follow on EPA meeting is
> greatly appreciated. I wanted to attend but could not afford the ticket

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Fri Mar 12 09:48:22 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.104822.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Kobus

Ceramic fibre is great where it can be used, and is virtually without equal,
in terms of its insulating capability and low thermal inertia.

It has two serious failings: It has little to no resistance to physical
damage, and is susceptible to chemical attack by ash.

It must have physical protection from such factors as:
1: Being impacted and torn by the fuel
2: Being impacted by stove and stack cleaning operations
3: Being damaged by high gas velocities.

It must have "chemical protection" from the ash resulting from combustion:
1: The fibre insulation can be used in areas where fluxing due to fuel dusts
will not be a consideration.
2: If there are fluxing dusts in the region, then the fibre insulation must
be isolated from them by mechanical protection, at least in the region where
the temperatures are such that the ash and fibre will react.

Ash chemistry could be really important. For example, rice straw, with a
high silica ash, may not cause a problem to exposed ceramic fibre
insulation, but wood, with an ash higher in Calcium and Potassium, may
destroy it in short order. Similarly, if "salty waste" was burned, for
example, a box that contained salt, and which still had some left when it
was burned, could make a Sodium Oxide fume that would flux the ceramic fibre
rapidly.

The fibre insulation is great stuff where it can be used, but it is
difficult to use in stoves advantageously unless provision is made to work
with its advantages, and to work around its disadvantages.

Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kobus" <ventfory@IAFRICA.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 7:25 AM
Subject: [STOVES] Ceramic fiber

Paul

Let me be the first to correct your figures after reading the excellent
report by Prof. Grover, but I also know a bit about ceramic fibres - from
personal experience. The
temperatures a typical ceramic fibre cast material can withstand is 1300?C
not 13000?C, also obtainable in the 1600?C range in RSA - just costs a bit
more. For mineral wool and glass fibre I suggest removing some
noughts at the end too (700?C and 450?C respectively and respectfully).

Contact me off-list and I'll put you in touch with a local supplier (RSA).

Regards

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: 15 February 2004 23:42
Subject: [STOVES] Ceramic fiber

From ronallarson at QWEST.NET Fri Mar 12 10:02:28 2004
From: ronallarson at QWEST.NET (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: [ethos] request for 'material ' assistance
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.080228.0700.RONALLARSON@QWEST.NET>

Peter:

1. First, I apologize to you and everyone on "stoves" for having
mis-identified this as a "stoves" message - and mentioning it to all of
"stoves" just now.

2. First thought is that a glass-like glaze might fuse well enough to
be of help. Fitting the glaze to the body so as to avoid cracking and
flaking off won't be easy - but it might work. There are a lot of glazed
pots in the world which only have ground up glass bottles as their main or
only ingredient.

3. I prefer the use of a "loose" interior bent metal (even stainless?)
strip as a (replaceable) abrasion guard. Any experience with that?

4. I really enjoyed your accompanying photo-essay which I presume Tom
Miles will have found - and maybe could put up and can announce to "stoves"
when ready?

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Scott <apropeter@earthlink.net>
To: <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 5:12 AM
Subject: [ethos] request for 'material ' assistance

> Dear Friends
>
> I have a general request that is directed toward anyone in the ethos/stove
> community.
>
> A little background:
>
> I have been building institutional stoves here in Southern Africa over the
> last year and we have been experimenting with three types of brick: a low
> density fired sawdust/clay brick, a fired vermiculite/clay brick and an
> unfired cement/vermiculite brick for the liners of our Rocket type stoves.
>
> The unfired cement vermiculite brick is really attractive as it is simple
> to make , doesnt need a kiln and is relatively cheap. We found a
> commercial vermiculite kiln in Durban that had been using them for over 50
> years with out degradation. Of course they werent ramming sticks of wood
> into the kiln nor generally abusing the bricks.
>
> This leads us to our present challenge. We are experiencing the erosion of
> these bricks as a result of the surface being abraided as the sticks
scrape
> alongside the brick . Aprovecho has been experimenting with bricks for
the
> last 5 years but most of this has been with fired clay bricks. so
>
> I would appreciate any thoughts that people had about how to improve our
> bricks. We are going to experiment with adding a thin layer of cement on
to
> the wear zones, reinforcing with a thin clay liner in the wear zones and
> some other things as well.
>
> Even if we cant find a suitable mix, we have our fired sawdust and
> vermiculite bricks which have proven more reliable already , but it would
> be nice to get input from others re: possible additives to the cement
> vermiculite mixture. One of the possible additives is sodium silicate (or
> water glass. We have made mixes in the past with water glass and clay but
> not with cement or vermiculite.
>
> Any thoughts?
> All Best
> Peter
>
> 'Twas lovely to see everyone at the conference
>
> Peace
> Peter
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Tom Miles <tmiles@trmiles.com>
> > To: AES <aes@bitstream.net>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > Cc: ethos <ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>; <aholland@iastate.edu>
> > Date: 3/6/2004 10:38:45 PM
> > Subject: [ethos] Re: [STOVES] Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for
Banglasdesh
> >
> > Bruce,
> >
> > So far I don't see anything on the ETHOS website.
> >
> > I'll have to refer you to Amy Holland at Iowa State University (reading
in
> > copy) and ETHOS.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "AES" <aes@bitstream.net>
> > To: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 8:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: [STOVES] Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Banglasdesh
> >
> >
> > > Is there a list with names, contact information (emails, snail mail,
> > phone?)
> > > of all those who attended the ETHOS conference in Seattle? If so,
where
> > can
> > > I find it?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Bruce Stahlberg
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>
> > > To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:29 PM
> > > Subject: [STOVES] Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for Banglasdesh
> > >
> > >
> > > Stovers:
> > >
> > > Please find Jonathan Rouse's paper, "Indoor Air Pollution: Issues for
> > > Bangladesh" in pdf format on the Stoves Website at
> > > http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Rouse/rouiap.pdf
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Tom Miles
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with
> > this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
> > ---
>
>

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Mar 12 10:54:16 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: cultivation of castor and Jatropha
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.212416.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Castor is a cultivated in India with hybrids that can yield upto10 tonnes of
beans per ha. Jatropha is still a wild plant and not subjected to plant
breeding. Therefore the yield of Jatropha is low. You would be lucky to get
1 tonne per ha. Jatropha is however reported to yield almost as highly as
castor in some South American countries. Both are raised from seed. Castor
starts yielding beans about 3 to 4 months after planting. Jatropha takes
about 3 years before the first harvest. However, Jatropha raised by means
of cuttings taken from a mature plant starts flowering and fruiting right
from the first year onwards. Since the modern castor varieties are not
semsotove to the photoperiod and because they can complete their life cycle
in about 3 to 4 months, I feel that castor could be grown even in higher
latitudes. Castorbean as well as Jatropha are both poisonous. The endosperm
of castor tastes nice and children, innocent of the poisonous nature are
often killed by eating it. Castor oil is however is relatively harmless. It
will cause severe diarrhoea, if taken straight, but eating food fried in
castor oil has no such effect.
A.D.Karve

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Fri Mar 12 11:50:27 2004
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: "stoves" as a commercial information clearing house
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.115027.0500.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Thank you Richard for your suggestion and Ron for your comments.

Richard,

Our host, the Renewable Energy Policy Project (REPP) is not in a position
to do what you suggest. It is not their mission. They host the Bioenergy,
PV, Straw House and Green Building discussion lists as a non-profit to
promote the exchange of information. They do not have the staff to embark
on the sale of information. It could be done but it takes management and
staff to do so. From 1994-2000 our former host, the Center For Renewable
Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST), tried and failed. REPP was kind
enough to inherit the financial and administrative burden of hosting the
lists.

The REPP lists are administered by volunteers. After more than 10 years we
know exactly what it costs to host the lists, in budget and man hours. As
the principal out-of-pocket financial contributor to the REPP Bioenergy
lists I can tell you that it is more than you can sustain without outside
support unless you go seriously into a full time electronic publishing
business. Even then I know of a few pros who have attempted to develop
sustainable information businesses based on renewable resources, including
energy, and failed.

We encourage organizations like Legacy Foundation to get into the business
of disseminating information and recovering whatever cost and/or profit
they need to do so. As Ron suggests we already provide several links to
organizations that do, including Lgecy Foundation, but REPP will not
become a marketing tool. You have to do it on your own.

If Legacy Foundation, or any other organization, would like to contribute
part of their profits to help sustain the Stoves discussion lists and web
sites you are more than welcome. Just contact me at tmiles@trmiles.com or
send your contribution directly to the Renewable Energy Policy Project
(REPP 1612 K Street, NW Suite 202 Washington, DC 20006)

Kind regards,

Tom

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:46:41 -0700, Ron Larson <ronallarson@QWEST.NET>
wrote:

>Richard:
>
> Since your message today on marketing sent to the list was also
>specifically addressed directly to myself, I will take a stab at a first
>response:
>
>1. I wonder if we have any legal limitations with REPP as our host. Tom
>Miles?
>
>2. There are some members of the group already doing something somewhat
>similar - Aprovecho sells plans and consulting services. See
>http://www.aprovecho.net/at/atindex.htm
>Also Tom Reed has a good selection: http://www.woodgas.com/
>Crispin's is a good one:
>http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/opening.htm
>Groups like ITDG http://www.itdg.org/html/energy/expertise.htm and HEDON
>http://www.hedon.info/goto.php/ImprovedCookstove
>And your own Legacy Foundation; http://www.legacyfound.org/
>
>3. I have a high regard for one site much larger than all of the above put
>together (10,000 products) - Steve Troy (main organizer of the Sustainable
>Resources Conferences)
>http://www.sustainablevillage.com/servlet/display/products/byCat/5/all/all
>
>4. One thought is to ask everyone with an existing site to at least let
>that site be better known right now. I apologize for leaving some out
that
>I should have listed.
>
>5. I would think Tom Miles would know a way to collect all these into one
>easy "Yellow Pages" location. Tom?
>
>6. Anyone wanting to take this on with a long term commitment should also
>identify themselves (count me out).
>
>7. I fear that 10% won't cut it for most persons able to do a good job of
>passing on the orders - Others?
>
>8. I also fear that "stoves" could lose the value we do seem to have with
>persons like Peter Scott coming in as the very next message after yours -
>asking about ideas to improve abrasion resistance on a concrete block
(now I
>have to respond there as well to prove the system is working). If we
>become dependent on selling that sort of response, I fear we could lose
the
>good momenum we have as an impartial zero-cost (probably often wrong)
means
>of trying to assist in the overall goal of getting better stoves and fuels
>out to individuals and groups that can't possibly even reach us, even if
>they knew of us (for reasons of funds, language, web access, etc). Now at
>least, if someone perceives something wrong they are able to get it out
>pretty sidely.
>
>9. But we do also need to be cognizant of the fact that "stoves" relies
on
>someone else's paying the bills - so this is to give Tom Miles a chance to
>also explain that situation.
>
>10. Richard - Thanks for bringing up a new information-dissemination
>topic - which is an important part of getting faster progress toward
better
>stoves/fuels.
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>header -----------------------
>> Sender: The Stoves Discussion List <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
>> Poster: richard stanley <rstanley@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>
>> Subject: Re: Notes on the EPA (Not Ethos) Stoves Workshop - Day 1
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>-----
>>
>> Ron et al.
>>
>> Your concise coverage of the ETHOS and the follow on EPA meeting is
>> greatly appreciated. I wanted to attend but could not afford the ticket
>
> <snip long message dated today>

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Fri Mar 12 11:53:26 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (tombreed@COMCAST.NET)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: cultivation of castor and Jatropha
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.165326.0000.>

Dear Karve and All:

Most interesting posting on Castor bean and castor oil.

The only thing I can add is that the triglyeride fatty acids in castor oil are unique in being alcohol soluble, hence used at the race track when methanol is the fuel. So, as we sashay toward a renewable fuel economy, castor oil may find a bigger place.

I have never made biodiesel from castor oil (castordiesel), but it should be a good cosolvent between diesel and alcohol fuels if such is ever needed.

Comments?

ONward... TOM REED BEF

> Castor is a cultivated in India with hybrids that can yield upto10 tonnes of
> beans per ha. Jatropha is still a wild plant and not subjected to plant
> breeding. Therefore the yield of Jatropha is low. You would be lucky to get
> 1 tonne per ha. Jatropha is however reported to yield almost as highly as
> castor in some South American countries. Both are raised from seed. Castor
> starts yielding beans about 3 to 4 months after planting. Jatropha takes
> about 3 years before the first harvest. However, Jatropha raised by means
> of cuttings taken from a mature plant starts flowering and fruiting right
> from the first year onwards. Since the modern castor varieties are not
> semsotove to the photoperiod and because they can complete their life cycle
> in about 3 to 4 months, I feel that castor could be grown even in higher
> latitudes. Castorbean as well as Jatropha are both poisonous. The endosperm
> of castor tastes nice and children, innocent of the poisonous nature are
> often killed by eating it. Castor oil is however is relatively harmless. It
> will cause severe diarrhoea, if taken straight, but eating food fried in
> castor oil has no such effect.
> A.D.Karve

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Fri Mar 12 12:01:19 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (tombreed@COMCAST.NET)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: "stoves" as a commercial information clearing house
Message-ID: <FRI.12.MAR.2004.170119.0000.>

Ron and All:

Thanks for arbitrating the commercial side of new biomass stoves. If we only continue to make one of a kind for research purposes, we are whistling in the wind as far as solving the world stove problems.

You didn't mention www.woodgasllc.com, the commercial arm of my 501-c-3 www.woodgas.com website and non profit company. Please visit our site and see our lightweight (600 g), high power (3 kW) clean burning woodgas campstove. Consider buying one so that you can tell the difference between woodstoves and WoodGas Stoves. Dramatic! The principles are free to all, once comprehended.

ONward, TOM REED BEF WOODGASLLC CPC NAFF SEASWEEP
> Richard:
>
> Since your message today on marketing sent to the list was also
> specifically addressed directly to myself, I will take a stab at a first
> response:
>
> 1. I wonder if we have any legal limitations with REPP as our host. Tom
> Miles?
>
> 2. There are some members of the group already doing something somewhat
> similar - Aprovecho sells plans and consulting services. See
> http://www.aprovecho.net/at/atindex.htm
> Also Tom Reed has a good selection: http://www.woodgas.com/
> Crispin's is a good one:
> http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/opening.htm
> Groups like ITDG http://www.itdg.org/html/energy/expertise.htm and HEDON
> http://www.hedon.info/goto.php/ImprovedCookstove
> And your own Legacy Foundation; http://www.legacyfound.org/
>
> 3. I have a high regard for one site much larger than all of the above put
> together (10,000 products) - Steve Troy (main organizer of the Sustainable
> Resources Conferences)
> http://www.sustainablevillage.com/servlet/display/products/byCat/5/all/all
>

> 4. One thought is to ask everyone with an existing site to at least let
> that site be better known right now. I apologize for leaving some out that
> I should have listed.
>
> 5. I would think Tom Miles would know a way to collect all these into one
> easy "Yellow Pages" location. Tom?
>
> 6. Anyone wanting to take this on with a long term commitment should also
> identify themselves (count me out).
>
> 7. I fear that 10% won't cut it for most persons able to do a good job of
> passing on the orders - Others?
>
> 8. I also fear that "stoves" could lose the value we do seem to have with
> persons like Peter Scott coming in as the very next message after yours -
> asking about ideas to improve abrasion resistance on a concrete block (now I
> have to respond there as well to prove the system is working). If we
> become dependent on selling that sort of response, I fear we could lose the
> good momenum we have as an impartial zero-cost (probably often wrong) means

> of trying to assist in the overall goal of getting better stoves and fuels
> out to individuals and groups that can't possibly even reach us, even if
> they knew of us (for reasons of funds, language, web access, etc). Now at
> least, if someone perceives something wrong they are able to get it out
> pretty sidely.
>
> 9. But we do also need to be cognizant of the fact that "stoves" relies on
> someone else's paying the bills - so this is to give Tom Miles a chance to
> also explain that situation.
>
> 10. Richard - Thanks for bringing up a new information-dissemination
> topic - which is an important part of getting faster progress toward better
> stoves/fuels.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> > Sender: The Stoves Discussion List <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > Poster: richard stanley <rstanley@LEGACYFOUND.ORG>
> > Subject: Re: Notes on the EPA (Not Ethos) Stoves Workshop - Day 1

> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Ron et al.
> >
> > Your concise coverage of the ETHOS and the follow on EPA meeting is
> > greatly appreciated. I wanted to attend but could not afford the ticket
>
> <snip long message dated today>

From raywije at EUREKA.LK Sat Mar 13 07:37:34 2004
From: raywije at EUREKA.LK (Ray Wijewardene)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: FW: Introducing new (?) STOVES membership candidate ...
Punchibanda
Message-ID: <SAT.13.MAR.2004.183734.0600.RAYWIJE@EUREKA.LK>

Dear Tom, I respectfully submit - for inclusion in the STOVES list - the
name of Mr.D.M.Punchibanda of the Sri Lanka National Engineering Research
and Development (NERD?) Centre who is perhaps (nay, undoubtedly) Sri Lanka's
most productive and innovative 'stoves' developer. His email address is
<bandara@nerdc.lk> and has most unfortunately been delayed for over two
years due to (I have been given to understand as) 'technical problems'. All
those who attended the super 'stoves' conference organised by the Karve's at
Pune will remember him and his excellent presentation there. I am only very
VERY sorry that these same 'technical problems' precluded his participation
at - and contribution to - the sequel in Seattle.

May please request that the excellent report of the Seattle conference (by
Ron Larson et-al) be sent to Punchibanda... as also Ron's - and others's -
more recent dissertations relating thereto.

Sincerely....

Ray Wijewardene.

From ronallarson at QWEST.NET Sat Mar 13 09:27:26 2004
From: ronallarson at QWEST.NET (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Introducing new (?) STOVES membership candidate ...
Punchibanda
Message-ID: <SAT.13.MAR.2004.072726.0700.RONALLARSON@QWEST.NET>

Stovers (cc Ray):

I have just sent off the five reports, so hope others won't. I have
given instructions on how to join
http://listserv.repp.org/cgi-bin/wa.cgi?SUBED1=stoves&A=1) and hope others
will join as well.

I concur with Ray about the capabilities of Punchibanda. At the Pune
conference, his one of the most well constructed power point presentations -
on a forced-air pyrolysis stove very much like Tom Reed's. I believe he has
sold hundreds to remote villagers at a competitive price - and hope he will
take this opportunity to fill us in on details.

Ray Wijewardene appears to be the most knowledgeable person on this list
on pollarding-coppicing for fuel. As a former major manufacturer of small
power equipment and now President (?) of Sri Lanka's main University (I
guess in some sense Punchibanda works for him) - Ray also has a lot to tell
us about - and hope he can add a few words about his present view on
anything we have been talking about on "stoves".

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Ray Wijewardene <raywije@EUREKA.LK>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 5:37 AM
Subject: FW: Introducing new (?) STOVES membership candidate ... Punchibanda

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender: The Stoves Discussion List <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Poster: Ray Wijewardene <raywije@EUREKA.LK>
> Subject: FW: Introducing new (?) STOVES membership candidate ...
> Punchibanda
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Dear Tom, I respectfully submit - for inclusion in the STOVES list - the
> name of Mr.D.M.Punchibanda of the Sri Lanka National Engineering Research
> and Development (NERD?) Centre who is perhaps (nay, undoubtedly) Sri
Lanka's
> most productive and innovative 'stoves' developer. His email address is
> <bandara@nerdc.lk> and has most unfortunately been delayed for over two
> years due to (I have been given to understand as) 'technical problems'.
All
> those who attended the super 'stoves' conference organised by the Karve's
at
> Pune will remember him and his excellent presentation there. I am only
very
> VERY sorry that these same 'technical problems' precluded his
participation
> at - and contribution to - the sequel in Seattle.
>
> May please request that the excellent report of the Seattle conference (by
> Ron Larson et-al) be sent to Punchibanda... as also Ron's - and others's -
> more recent dissertations relating thereto.
>
> Sincerely....
>
> Ray Wijewardene.
>

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Sat Mar 13 12:15:04 2004
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: FW: Introducing new (?) STOVES membership candidate ...
Punchibanda
Message-ID: <SAT.13.MAR.2004.121504.0500.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Ray,

Done. Thank you for the recommendation.

Ron, would you please forward copies of your summaries to Mr Punchibanda?

Photos from the ETHOS meeting can be found on the stoves web pages at:
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

The Stoves list discussion can be found at:
http://listserv.repp.org/archives/stoves.html

Kind regards,

Tom Miles

On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:37:34 +0600, Ray Wijewardene <raywije@EUREKA.LK>
wrote:

>Dear Tom, I respectfully submit - for inclusion in the STOVES list - the
>name of Mr.D.M.Punchibanda of the Sri Lanka National Engineering Research
>and Development (NERD?) Centre >
>Sincerely....
>
>Ray Wijewardene.

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Sat Mar 13 17:28:14 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.002814.0200.>

Dear Stovers

Just a brief note on glass fibre insulation - widely available and cheap
and suitable for chimneys and lower temp stove parts.

It has to be contained, usually on both sides. It is usually available
in a stiff version that is wonderful to cut and snip and pack into
available spaces. Example: cut 50mm slabs to shape and put in the a
47mm space.

Problem: all the non-fluffy glass fibre 'boards' are held together with
bakelite - about 2% to 10% by weight. The Bakelite evaporates at 250 C
leaving the insulation with no internal stiffness so don't plan on it
being self-supporting in the cavities. This is a problem that must be
worked around.

And...evaporated Bakelite is a hyper-estrogen.

Regards
Crispin

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sat Mar 13 18:36:57 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <SAT.13.MAR.2004.193657.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Crispin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
>
....del...
> And...evaporated Bakelite is a hyper-estrogen.
>
Could you please elaborate a bit further on the hazards associated with a
"hyper-estrogen?"

Thanks very much.

Kevin Chisholm

> Regards
> Crispin

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sat Mar 13 19:04:59 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
In-Reply-To: <00c001c40954$1a8fefc0$599a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.MAR.2004.180459.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

There are quite a few chemicals now found to act as "pseudo-estrogen" or
xenoestrogen, i.e., they bind to estrogen receptors in mammals. Seem to be
associated with some pretty serious problems like cancer, trans-gender
mutations, etc. Funny thing, I was just this afternoon researching same in
plastic water bottles, got to get a new either stainless or PP bottle.
Here's a recent Sierra Club magazine article on that:

http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200311/lol5.asp

On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 07:36:57PM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> Dear Crispin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> >
> ....del...
> > And...evaporated Bakelite is a hyper-estrogen.
> >
> Could you please elaborate a bit further on the hazards associated with a
> "hyper-estrogen?"
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Kevin Chisholm
>
> > Regards
> > Crispin

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sat Mar 13 19:18:43 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
In-Reply-To: <20040314000459.GA3086@cybershamanix.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.MAR.2004.181843.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

Whoops -- not just "mammals".

On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 06:04:59PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> There are quite a few chemicals now found to act as "pseudo-estrogen" or
> xenoestrogen, i.e., they bind to estrogen receptors in mammals. Seem to be
> associated with some pretty serious problems like cancer, trans-gender
> mutations, etc. Funny thing, I was just this afternoon researching same in
> plastic water bottles, got to get a new either stainless or PP bottle.
> Here's a recent Sierra Club magazine article on that:
>
> http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200311/lol5.asp
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 07:36:57PM -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:
> > Dear Crispin
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> > >
> > ....del...
> > > And...evaporated Bakelite is a hyper-estrogen.
> > >
> > Could you please elaborate a bit further on the hazards associated with a
> > "hyper-estrogen?"
> >
> > Thanks very much.
> >
> > Kevin Chisholm
> >
> > > Regards
> > > Crispin
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Mar 12 19:19:33 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: cultivation of castor and Jatropha
Message-ID: <SAT.13.MAR.2004.054933.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Tom,
castor is going to be a very important source of biological fuels. We have
already run a diesel tractor on castor oil and have also obtained methane
from the cake. The woody stalks can be converted into charcoal or they can
also be gasified.And because castor is cultivated in large areas, castor oil
and castor cake are commodities that you can buy in the market. In the case
of most other non-edible oils, the availability is rather restricted. I
have seen chicken pecking at castor cake lying outside an oil mill, and the
owner said that his chicken were not adversely affected. Maybe the chicken
are immune to ricin or the ricin is degraded in the process of oil
extraction.
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: <tombreed@comcast.net>

> Dear Karve and All:
>
> Most interesting posting on Castor bean and castor oil.
>
> The only thing I can add is that the triglyeride fatty acids in castor oil
are unique in being alcohol soluble, hence used at the race track when
methanol is the fuel. So, as we sashay toward a renewable fuel economy,
castor oil may find a bigger place.
>
> I have never made biodiesel from castor oil (castordiesel), but it should
be a good cosolvent between diesel and alcohol fuels if such is ever needed.
>
> Comments?
>
> ONward... TOM REED BEF
>

From dstill at EPUD.NET Sun Mar 14 11:54:20 2004
From: dstill at EPUD.NET (Dean Still)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Partnership Meeting in Rome
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.085420.0800.DSTILL@EPUD.NET>

Dear Stovers,

I just returned from the Partnership in Clean Indoor Air three day meeting
in Rome, a follow up to the Seattle conferences. The purpose of the meeting
was to agree on protocols to study the relationship between health and
exposure to wood smoke. Many people at the Seattle meetings wanted to know
safe levels of exposure which would determine the interventions necessary to
reduce human exposure. Is it enough to increase combustion efficiency or
should all stoves have chimneys or hoods? What kind of stove will solve the
problem of smoke hurting people cooking with biomass??

Unfortunately, talks by Nigel Bruce and others informed the Rome meeting
that safe levels are currently unknown. What we do know is that levels of
kitchen exposure are orders of magnitude above legal levels in
industrialized countries. To get exposure down to legal limits interventions
must remove very large percentages of the pollution.

Kirk Smith and Liz Bates introduced the relatively inexpensive (around
$2,000, I think) machines they use to analyze Carbon Monoxide and
particulates in houses. Liz Bates in her ITDG study uses a battery operated
vacuum that is placed near the nose and mouth of the cook. After a day or
more a filter is removed and weighed showing exposure to particulates. A
recording CO monitor is placed at a certain distance from the fire.

Kirk has developed a system using HOBO CO data loggers and a modified smoke
detector for particulates. The smoke detector has been tested in his lab and
seems to work very well. Advantages of his approach seem to be that it is
less expensive and easier to use. But Liz has had very few problems using
the ITDG approach. Either approach seems workable although neither is dead
easy. Research has to be done very carefully to get meaningful results.

The last morning Karen Westley from Shell Foundation re-directed the
approach as she summarized what we had learned in two days of presentations
and discussion. Doing epidemiological research is beyond the scope of our
small partnership since it is complicated and costly. Finding out exactly
how exposure affects health is very important, should be done, but is a
governmental type of problem, like determining how bad smoking is. What we
can do is to see how different interventions decrease exposure. This is a
problem that our Partnership can address successfully. And we can continue
while studying to bring good, better, best solutions to those in need.

Suggested research protocols will be forthcoming from the Partnership
committee.

Generally, the meeting showed that the world is starting to pay attention to
stoves through the exposure issue. UNDP, Winrock, WHO, USAID, GTZ, ITDG,
WFP, Shell Foundation, EPA, ARECOP, many NGO's from Africa, Asia, Americas,
etc. were in attendance. The Italian Ministry of the Environment hosted the
meeting in a very fancy room with microphones for each speaker, waiters in
white coats serving spectacular food. Karen Westley, Brenda Doroski, John
Mitchell, Lisa Buttner have done an amazing job helping the stove community
to collaborate on making stoves and studying how to improve interventions. I
frequently thought that Tom Reed's hope of seeing a million stoves made is
now likely to happen. Even a couple of years ago it seemed to be a dream.
The Partnership is doing a great job. Stoves are again of international
interest and one overhears funders talking about making 100,000 stoves, etc.

The ball seems to be rolling, folks.Thanks to the EPA, Winrock, Shell and
the Partnership they created.

Best,

Dean

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Sun Mar 14 12:33:11 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.193311.0200.>

Dear Kevin

There are two common hyper-estrogens that I know of that are common the
environment. One is found in maize and peanuts which have had (the
omnipresent) Fusarium Roseum mould growing on them. This is very common
in peanut fields and in wet-ish maize growing areas. It is a pink mould
and it leaves behind two types of dangerous mycotoxin metabolites:
aflatoxin and zearalanone, the latter being a hyper-estrogen. Cooking
oil with elevated levels of it (like corn oil) are removed from sale.

It acts the same way as ordinary estrogen but with far more efficacy -
if that is the right word. One fear is that sharp rises of it in a
pregnant woman will act the same way as RU86 or similar 'abortion
pills'. You can induce an abortion by raising the estrogen level in the
woman and then dropping it suddenly. The drop causes an abortion. I
think the first abortion pill worked that way.

I wrote a rural food preparation and quality report for CARE Int'l once,
wondering if spontaneous abortion in women in Swaziland was seasonal,
the idea being that as the maize gets older and mouldier from last
season, people eating it would have rising zearalanone levels which
would suddenly drop when the new crop came in about mid December.

Unfortunately there are no statistics to analyse.

So, evaporated Bakelite (the first plastic ever made, I think) falls
into the class of substances to worry about as far as I understand its
properties. I was surprised to see it as the stiffening ingredient in
the glass fibre we buy to insulation our bread baking and proving ovens.
The 'boards' are wonderful products to work with in that they are
self-supporting and easy to handle. We use the lowest Bakelite level
available which is 2% because of the better insulation it gives. I
think the K value is about 0.033 but I can't remember for sure.

After the Bakelite boils out, at least out of the inner part of the
insulation against the oven, there still remains some on the colder
side, but is someone turns the thing up to 325 C and leaves it there
with nothing inside the insulation temperature soars and it all
disappears. What is left if the fluffy stuff we are used to seeing
between house wall studs.

Evaporating Bakelite has a distinctive smell which you can sample by
holding a pot handle in a flame!

Regards from
Crispin just back from Summit City (JHB)

+++++++++++++=

Thanks very much.

Kevin Chisholm

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sun Mar 14 13:28:12 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Partnership Meeting in Rome
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.142812.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Dean
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <dstill@EPUD.NET>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 12:54 PM
Subject: [STOVES] Partnership Meeting in Rome

> Dear Stovers,
>
>
>
> I just returned from the Partnership in Clean Indoor Air three day meeting
> in Rome, a follow up to the Seattle conferences. The purpose of the
meeting
> was to agree on protocols to study the relationship between health and
> exposure to wood smoke. Many people at the Seattle meetings wanted to know
> safe levels of exposure which would determine the interventions necessary
to
> reduce human exposure. Is it enough to increase combustion efficiency

No.

or
> should all stoves have chimneys or hoods?

Yes.

What kind of stove will solve the
> problem of smoke hurting people cooking with biomass??
>
Virtually any stove with a chimney or hood.
>
> Unfortunately, talks by Nigel Bruce and others informed the Rome meeting
> that safe levels are currently unknown. What we do know is that levels of
> kitchen exposure are orders of magnitude above legal levels in
> industrialized countries. To get exposure down to legal limits
interventions
> must remove very large percentages of the pollution.
>
Yes. A chimney or hood will do this.
>
> Kirk Smith and Liz Bates introduced the relatively inexpensive (around
> $2,000, I think) machines they use to analyze Carbon Monoxide and
> particulates in houses. Liz Bates in her ITDG study uses a battery
operated
> vacuum that is placed near the nose and mouth of the cook. After a day or
> more a filter is removed and weighed showing exposure to particulates. A
> recording CO monitor is placed at a certain distance from the fire.
>
A really simple test is to simply sit in a reasonably "closed" room, and see
how long one can stand it.
>
> Kirk has developed a system using HOBO CO data loggers and a modified
smoke
> detector for particulates. The smoke detector has been tested in his lab
and
> seems to work very well.

One of the best smoke testers of all is simply a person sitting with an
unvented stove operating in a closed room.

Advantages of his approach seem to be that it is
> less expensive and easier to use. But Liz has had very few problems using
> the ITDG approach. Either approach seems workable although neither is dead
> easy. Research has to be done very carefully to get meaningful results.
>
I would respectfully disagree. I would suggest that the problem is being
shifted to one of finding elegant data collection systems, rather than
finding practical systems that work.
>
> The last morning Karen Westley from Shell Foundation re-directed the
> approach as she summarized what we had learned in two days of
presentations
> and discussion. Doing epidemiological research is beyond the scope of our
> small partnership since it is complicated and costly. Finding out exactly
> how exposure affects health is very important, should be done, but is a
> governmental type of problem, like determining how bad smoking is. What we
> can do is to see how different interventions decrease exposure.

May I suggest that the simplest and most effective system is to add a
chimney or hood to any stove?

This is a
> problem that our Partnership can address successfully. And we can continue
> while studying to bring good, better, best solutions to those in need.
>
Imagine a "virtually perfect stove" installed in a nice suburban US Home,
but with no chimney or hood. How long would it be used?

If its products of combustion smudge up the walls, it is easy to imagine
that it would smudge up the occupants lungs also.
>
> Suggested research protocols will be forthcoming from the Partnership
> committee.

I must be missing the point big time, but it would seem to me that "the
perfect stove" (from an emissions standpoint) is as elusive and impossible
to find as Shangrala and the Fountain of Youth. It puzzles me why the
obvious chimney or hood solution is being danced about. The only thing I can
see is that Grant Money is funding research and data collection, but that
there is no money in providing effective solutions.

Am I missing something important?
>

> Generally, the meeting showed that the world is starting to pay attention
to
> stoves through the exposure issue. UNDP, Winrock, WHO, USAID, GTZ, ITDG,
> WFP, Shell Foundation, EPA, ARECOP, many NGO's from Africa, Asia,
Americas,
> etc. were in attendance. The Italian Ministry of the Environment hosted
the
> meeting in a very fancy room with microphones for each speaker, waiters in
> white coats serving spectacular food. Karen Westley, Brenda Doroski, John
> Mitchell, Lisa Buttner have done an amazing job helping the stove
community
> to collaborate on making stoves and studying how to improve interventions.
I
> frequently thought that Tom Reed's hope of seeing a million stoves made is
> now likely to happen. Even a couple of years ago it seemed to be a dream.
> The Partnership is doing a great job. Stoves are again of international
> interest and one overhears funders talking about making 100,000 stoves,
etc.
>
Wow. Is there any money to build chimneys and hoods?
>
> The ball seems to be rolling, folks.Thanks to the EPA, Winrock, Shell and
> the Partnership they created.
>
I'm on the fringe of things and don't understand how they really work. How
would one proceed to promote chimneys and hoods?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

From cree at DOWCO.COM Sun Mar 14 14:16:25 2004
From: cree at DOWCO.COM (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.111625.0800.CREE@DOWCO.COM>

I read with interest, all the comments, on reducing the smoke and the health
aspects, particulates, air borne contaminants.
Perhaps we should also look "more" at the fuel, and utilizing it better. If
ordinary wet branches are de-barked and stored dry, wouldn't that be a
better fuel. Reading publications such as the "Glow" magazine, fuel is
getting further and further away for the gatherers, so the usage, of that
resource should be important in all "Stoves" efforts.

John Olsen

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Sun Mar 14 15:02:13 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
In-Reply-To: <BLEFLNMHNDFEMMIJPGFICEFLCDAA.cree@dowco.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.160213.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

John has a valid point!

Obviously the answer isn't just chimneys and hoods. Combustion efficiency,
fuels and fuel availability are all relevant factors not to mention cultural
adaptation, which in my opinion is the biggest denominator of the equation.

Dean, many thanks for keeping us informed. Since 1999 we have tried to
interest USAID in improved biomass stoves in Bolivia and they only wanted to
consider LPG, which isn't practical in the rural areas because of
transportation and cost. Since they are part of the Partnership we can hope
that will change here and elsewhere.

Now thanks to the efforts of many, especially what may appear as newcomers
like Brenda, serious attention is coming to bear. Those of you who have
championed this cause for so long THANKS

Let's keep up the pressure to encounter the diverse types of answers needed
to positively impact quality of life for millions of souls. Lets continue
find solutions and not look for THE SOLUTION.
David
in a previous message, John Olsen on 3/14/04 15:16 at cree@DOWCO.COM wrote:

> I read with interest, all the comments, on reducing the smoke and the health
> aspects, particulates, air borne contaminants.
> Perhaps we should also look "more" at the fuel, and utilizing it better. If
> ordinary wet branches are de-barked and stored dry, wouldn't that be a
> better fuel. Reading publications such as the "Glow" magazine, fuel is
> getting further and further away for the gatherers, so the usage, of that
> resource should be important in all "Stoves" efforts.
>
> John Olsen
>

solarl@zuper.net.

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Sun Mar 14 15:08:45 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Xenoestrogen (was Ceramic fiber)
In-Reply-To: <000b01c409ea$78e1d5c0$e49dfea9@home>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.140845.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

I've seen warnings about GM soybeans containing very high amounts of
pseudo-estrogen, and the relation of that to breast and prostate cancer.

On Sun, Mar 14, 2004 at 07:33:11PM +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
> Dear Kevin
>
> There are two common hyper-estrogens that I know of that are common the
> environment. One is found in maize and peanuts which have had (the
> omnipresent) Fusarium Roseum mould growing on them. This is very common
> in peanut fields and in wet-ish maize growing areas. It is a pink mould
> and it leaves behind two types of dangerous mycotoxin metabolites:
> aflatoxin and zearalanone, the latter being a hyper-estrogen. Cooking
> oil with elevated levels of it (like corn oil) are removed from sale.
>
> It acts the same way as ordinary estrogen but with far more efficacy -
> if that is the right word. One fear is that sharp rises of it in a
> pregnant woman will act the same way as RU86 or similar 'abortion
> pills'. You can induce an abortion by raising the estrogen level in the
> woman and then dropping it suddenly. The drop causes an abortion. I
> think the first abortion pill worked that way.
>
> I wrote a rural food preparation and quality report for CARE Int'l once,
> wondering if spontaneous abortion in women in Swaziland was seasonal,
> the idea being that as the maize gets older and mouldier from last
> season, people eating it would have rising zearalanone levels which
> would suddenly drop when the new crop came in about mid December.
>
> Unfortunately there are no statistics to analyse.
>
> So, evaporated Bakelite (the first plastic ever made, I think) falls
> into the class of substances to worry about as far as I understand its
> properties. I was surprised to see it as the stiffening ingredient in
> the glass fibre we buy to insulation our bread baking and proving ovens.
> The 'boards' are wonderful products to work with in that they are
> self-supporting and easy to handle. We use the lowest Bakelite level
> available which is 2% because of the better insulation it gives. I
> think the K value is about 0.033 but I can't remember for sure.
>
> After the Bakelite boils out, at least out of the inner part of the
> insulation against the oven, there still remains some on the colder
> side, but is someone turns the thing up to 325 C and leaves it there
> with nothing inside the insulation temperature soars and it all
> disappears. What is left if the fluffy stuff we are used to seeing
> between house wall studs.
>
> Evaporating Bakelite has a distinctive smell which you can sample by
> holding a pot handle in a flame!
>
> Regards from
> Crispin just back from Summit City (JHB)
>
> +++++++++++++=
>
> Dear Crispin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispin@newdawn.sz>
> >
> ....del...
> > And...evaporated Bakelite is a hyper-estrogen.
> >
> Could you please elaborate a bit further on the hazards associated with
> a "hyper-estrogen?"
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Kevin Chisholm

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Sun Mar 14 16:14:52 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: Choppers from Kansas was Re: [STOVES] Notes on the EPA
In-Reply-To: <40515C16.7060709@legacyfound.org>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.151452.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

At 08:43 AM 3/12/04 +0200, richard stanley wrote:

Snip:

>the recent addition of choppers from Kansas,

Richard, can you tell us more about this (or where I missed it earlier?),
please?

Paul

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sun Mar 14 17:04:32 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.180432.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar"

D: John has a valid point!

K: Well, with a given stove, no matter how one prepares the fuel, have you
ever seen a stove that you would willingly spend an hour with in a closed
room? :-)

D: Obviously the answer isn't just chimneys and hoods. Combustion
efficiency,
fuels and fuel availability are all relevant factors

K: Yes, indeed, but without adequate "stack effect", you cannot get good
combustion efficiency. Whether you are using dung, wood, or high sulphur
coal, a chimney or hood at least allows you to burn the fuel in manner that
gives good IAQ, even while the stove is inefficient.

D: not to mention cultural
adaptation, which in my opinion is the biggest denominator of the equation.

K: If the Culture considers "the old way" as more important than health,
then not very much is going to change.

D: Dean, many thanks for keeping us informed. Since 1999 we have tried to
interest USAID in improved biomass stoves in Bolivia and they only wanted to
consider LPG, which isn't practical in the rural areas because of
transportation and cost. Since they are part of the Partnership we can hope
that will change here and elsewhere.

K: Has USAID been approached to support the widespread use of chimneys and
hoods to eliminate IAQ concerns?

D: Now thanks to the efforts of many, especially what may appear as
newcomers
like Brenda, serious attention is coming to bear. Those of you who have
championed this cause for so long THANKS.

K: There are two approaches to the problem: 1: We can move the Outhouse
closer to the back door, or 2: We can put in a flush toilet.

K: To me, a "more efficient stove" is great from the standpoint ofreducing
pressures on the local fuel supplies, but it they can NEVER solve the
problem of Indoor Air Quality. On the other hand, a chimney or hood
eliminate the IAQ problem, AND help improve stove efficiency at the same
time.

K: Is the chimney or hood a "no brainer", or is it me that has no brains,
and am possibly missing something of importance?

D: Let's keep up the pressure to encounter the diverse types of answers
needed
to positively impact quality of life for millions of souls. Lets continue
find solutions and not look for THE SOLUTION.

K: The enemy of a "Great Solution" is not a bad solution but a "Good
solution." More efficient stoves are good for easing pressures on the fuel
supply, and for reducing the cost per meal, but they detract from the Great
Solution to IAQ that chimneys and hoods provide.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

From aes at BITSTREAM.NET Sun Mar 14 18:11:38 2004
From: aes at BITSTREAM.NET (AES)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.171138.0600.AES@BITSTREAM.NET>

Friends,

Let us keep in mind that decisions about what type of stoves we encourage
the use of should be made at a local level. If the stove is inside a (semi)
closed room then a chimney or hood is essential. However, if it sits
outside in a open air shelter then putting the energy into a chimney may not
be the best use of our resources.

What type of stove to develop? Again, depends on the locale. Biogas,
Gasifiers, Rocket stoves, Solar Cookers and Haybox Cookers...lots of options
so I don't believe it makes sense to determine any one type of stove or
design should be promoted for every location.

While I appreciate all the research and work in getting that information out
to those in the field, at some point we need to realize that this work has
created better guidelines for improved stoves. That is stoves that use less
fuel, have cleaner emissions, an ability to remove the smoke from the
house, and an ability to not make any emissions at all. Beyond that let the
locality decide which from all those options is best suited for an area
based on geography, climate and culture.

I realize this point seems obvious in the development world. However USAID
pushing for LP gas stoves everywhere in their service territory is a classic
example of how we need to remind ourselves that the folks who know best what
stoves work best...are those who use them every day.

Your comments are welcomed.

Bruce Stahlberg

Message -----
From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel

> Dear David
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar"
>
>
> D: John has a valid point!
>
> K: Well, with a given stove, no matter how one prepares the fuel, have you
> ever seen a stove that you would willingly spend an hour with in a closed
> room? :-)
>
>
> D: Obviously the answer isn't just chimneys and hoods. Combustion
> efficiency,
> fuels and fuel availability are all relevant factors
>
> K: Yes, indeed, but without adequate "stack effect", you cannot get good
> combustion efficiency. Whether you are using dung, wood, or high sulphur
> coal, a chimney or hood at least allows you to burn the fuel in manner
that
> gives good IAQ, even while the stove is inefficient.
>
> D: not to mention cultural
> adaptation, which in my opinion is the biggest denominator of the
equation.
>
> K: If the Culture considers "the old way" as more important than health,
> then not very much is going to change.
>
> D: Dean, many thanks for keeping us informed. Since 1999 we have tried to
> interest USAID in improved biomass stoves in Bolivia and they only wanted
to
> consider LPG, which isn't practical in the rural areas because of
> transportation and cost. Since they are part of the Partnership we can
hope
> that will change here and elsewhere.
>
> K: Has USAID been approached to support the widespread use of chimneys and
> hoods to eliminate IAQ concerns?
>
>
> D: Now thanks to the efforts of many, especially what may appear as
> newcomers
> like Brenda, serious attention is coming to bear. Those of you who have
> championed this cause for so long THANKS.
>
> K: There are two approaches to the problem: 1: We can move the Outhouse
> closer to the back door, or 2: We can put in a flush toilet.
>
> K: To me, a "more efficient stove" is great from the standpoint ofreducing
> pressures on the local fuel supplies, but it they can NEVER solve the
> problem of Indoor Air Quality. On the other hand, a chimney or hood
> eliminate the IAQ problem, AND help improve stove efficiency at the same
> time.
>
> K: Is the chimney or hood a "no brainer", or is it me that has no brains,
> and am possibly missing something of importance?
>
> D: Let's keep up the pressure to encounter the diverse types of answers
> needed
> to positively impact quality of life for millions of souls. Lets continue
> find solutions and not look for THE SOLUTION.
>
> K: The enemy of a "Great Solution" is not a bad solution but a "Good
> solution." More efficient stoves are good for easing pressures on the fuel
> supply, and for reducing the cost per meal, but they detract from the
Great
> Solution to IAQ that chimneys and hoods provide.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sun Mar 14 18:42:29 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.194229.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "AES" <aes@bitstream.net>
To: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel

> Friends,
>
> Let us keep in mind that decisions about what type of stoves we encourage
> the use of should be made at a local level. If the stove is inside a
(semi)
> closed room then a chimney or hood is essential. However, if it sits
> outside in a open air shelter then putting the energy into a chimney may
not
> be the best use of our resources.

Good point about making local level decisions. However, if the concern is
Indoor Air Quality, then the chimney and hood options are mainly relevant
inside.
>
> What type of stove to develop? Again, depends on the locale. Biogas,
> Gasifiers, Rocket stoves, Solar Cookers and Haybox Cookers...lots of
options
> so I don't believe it makes sense to determine any one type of stove or
> design should be promoted for every location.

OK... there are two separate and distinct issues here: 1: IAQ. 2: Stove
efficiency and other stoving considerations. Clearly, the major IAQ
consideration is air quality degradation from the products of combustion.
With a chimney or hood, any stove system can be used, and its combustion and
cooking products can be led outside the living space.
>
> While I appreciate all the research and work in getting that information
out
> to those in the field, at some point we need to realize that this work has
> created better guidelines for improved stoves. That is stoves that use
less
> fuel, have cleaner emissions, an ability to remove the smoke from the
> house, and an ability to not make any emissions at all. Beyond that let
the
> locality decide which from all those options is best suited for an area
> based on geography, climate and culture.

Good point. Is there anyone who wants clean inside air? Or is the preference
of those in the Field to get good data? :-)
>
> I realize this point seems obvious in the development world. However
USAID
> pushing for LP gas stoves everywhere in their service territory is a
classic
> example of how we need to remind ourselves that the folks who know best
what
> stoves work best...are those who use them every day.

Would you know if they have a public statement of their reasons for
promoting LP gas stoves?
>
> Your comments are welcomed.
>
OK... where people want to improve IAQ, would you see any better way to do
it than with chimneys or hoods?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Sun Mar 14 18:59:44 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c40a10$56bae560$bb9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.195944.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

in a previous message, Kevin Chisholm on 3/14/04 18:04 at
kchisholm@ca.inter.net wrote:

> K: Well, with a given stove, no matter how one prepares the fuel, have you
> ever seen a stove that you would willingly spend an hour with in a closed
> room? :-)
Actually YES, a well built rocket or Vesto, to name two.
We do so quite frequently here with rockets and that is one of the reasons
folks are willing to break with the past and make a cultural change. They
even get used some for heat. Some folks have a small hole in the wall in
the corner where their fire or cooker is but the room is still basically
closed. I was very impressed a few weeks back when in the tropics and
demonstrating a ceramic brick rocket with cooking with some campesinos.
After some days of use outside the kitchen where she normally cooks, she
brought it inside where we eat and used it there professing to feel much
like the town folks that get to use gas in their kitchens inside. Actually
I have some pictures I think.

I completely agree that ventilation is a factor. But not the panacea as you
apparently purport or there would not be a need for development of improved
stoves. If you would take the time to read
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/#David_Whitfield
you would see that hoods and chimneys are recognized as significant for
reducing IAP but as only PART of the solutionS.
>
> D: Obviously the answer isn't just chimneys and hoods. Combustion
> efficiency,
> fuels and fuel availability are all relevant factors
>
> K: Yes, indeed, but without adequate "stack effect", you cannot get good
> combustion efficiency. Whether you are using dung, wood, or high sulphur
> coal, a chimney or hood at least allows you to burn the fuel in manner that
> gives good IAQ, even while the stove is inefficient.
>
The rockets we build and teach use of are not normally used with hoods or
chimneys and combustion is quite excellent in oxygen starved high altitudes
like the Andes (2,800 to 4,000>meters). I personally prefer hoods since
that reduces some problems associated with chimneys.

> D: not to mention cultural
> adaptation, which in my opinion is the biggest denominator of the equation.
>
> K: If the Culture considers "the old way" as more important than health,
> then not very much is going to change.
>
Cultural adaptation means that the folks recognize that interventions have
enough value the provoke habit change, it is not simplistically that the
"old ways" are more important. People trust what their ancestor did and
often fear or mistrust what they don't understand. More reason why the
cultural aspect is important to consider as part of the solutions.

> D: Dean, many thanks for keeping us informed. Since 1999 we have tried to
> interest USAID in improved biomass stoves in Bolivia and they only wanted to
> consider LPG, which isn't practical in the rural areas because of
> transportation and cost. Since they are part of the Partnership we can hope
> that will change here and elsewhere.
>
> K: Has USAID been approached to support the widespread use of chimneys and
> hoods to eliminate IAQ concerns?
>
So far not many folks even give attention to air quality or IAP and the
preventable results available, that the Partnership Dean mentioned is trying
to bring to the attention of governments and other organizations. This fact
is very important Kevin. The bulk of these 2+ billion persons really
haven't given much thought to air quality since so much attention is on the
daily bread thing and survival. I agree with you that IAQ is an important
factor in their survival. But since it is them that must change you have to
look at things from THEIR perspective.
>
> D: Now thanks to the efforts of many, especially what may appear as
> newcomers
> like Brenda, serious attention is coming to bear. Those of you who have
> championed this cause for so long THANKS.
>
> K: There are two approaches to the problem: 1: We can move the Outhouse
> closer to the back door, or 2: We can put in a flush toilet.
>
Kevin from what seems to me to be an overly simplistic approach it appears
you really haven't grasped the problem. I don't mean this as an attack
against YOU, however you make it seem that since you have already solved the
problem, the rest of the world must really be stupid not to accept your
solution OR YOU haven't really solved the problem!
Please consider that you haven't really grasped the problem.
> K: Is the chimney or hood a "no brainer", or is it me that has no brains,
> and am possibly missing something of importance?
>
I believe you are missing quite a lot of importance and if you took time to
consider what we are discussing here you could come closer to understanding
and then perhaps contributing in a proactive way to evolving solutonS.
> D: Let's keep up the pressure to encounter the diverse types of answers
> needed
> to positively impact quality of life for millions of souls. Lets continue
> find solutions and not look for THE SOLUTION.
>
> K: The enemy of a "Great Solution" is not a bad solution but a "Good
> solution." More efficient stoves are good for easing pressures on the fuel
> supply, and for reducing the cost per meal, but they detract from the Great
> Solution to IAQ that chimneys and hoods provide.
>
Kevin the real enemy may not be as you describe. The real enemy is
pretending to have solutions when in reality all of the PROBLEM isn't being
stated. You can not find the GREAT SOLUTION because you need SOLUTIONS. The
problem itself is plural and fluid. Its very equation changes with
circumstances and therefore I suggest you consider a multiple type of
solutions is necessary of which as everyone here has said at one time, hoods
and chimneys are PART of the solutions.

Let me put I this way Kevin, and I apologize for my poor english, but it is
more of a forest thing and not a tree thing.
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
>
Please take the time to read the source sited and then discuss more if you
like rather than firing of a bunch of bytes of justification.

Warm regards
David
--
"Sustainable development meets the needs of the present without compromising
the ability of future generations to meet their own needs."

David Whitfield
Director
CEDESOL
P.O. Box 4723
La Paz Bolivia South America
591-2-2414882 office 591 715 16356 La Paz or 774 24269
Cochabamba cellular

solar1@zuper.net

dewv@yahoo.com

http://www.solarcooking.org/media/broadcast/whitfield/bio-whitfield.htm

http://www.thehungersite.com

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sun Mar 14 19:20:08 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: The Hazards of Good Combustion: WasRe: [STOVES] Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.202008.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispin@newdawn.sz>

Dear Crispin

Wow!! It really concerns me that such dangerous compounds can be liberated
so easily, and that we can become victims of them is such an unknowing way.

The good thing about a fire from high sulphur coal, or a biomass fire in a
smokey inefficient stove is that the sulphur and the soot perform the same
function as odorants in LPG or natural gas: they warn you that there is a
danger. The Stove Developers may be doing the stove user an enormous
disservice by developing a biomass stove that burns clean enough that people
feel they don't have to use a hood or chimney.

I have smelled "bakelite fume" from pot handles and overheating electrical
equipment, and I do not find the odor to be unpleasant or bothersome.
(Obviously, I am concerned when I smell it, simply because it means I have
some other potentially serious problem at hand.) The danger is that if I had
an inside cooking stove that produced "bakelite analogs", but with no sooty,
pungent or acrid smoke, I would be very tempted to vent it inside.

Bakelite is made from phenol and formaldehyde... it is not inconceivable
that products of partial combustion could contain nasties similar to those
from charred Bakelite. OR that trash containing PVC could be burned,
liberating chlorine or dioxanes to the living space.

So to the extent that a Family might be tempted to operate a "good stove" in
the living space because its normal fume output was small, this could be
inviting the occasional "Indoor Environmental Disaster", where dioxanes and
"hyper-estrogens" are produced "on site" and vented into the living space.

The more I get into it, the more convinced I am that chimneys and hoods are
mandatory. I must be right, because nobody has yet come up with reasons why
I am wrong. :-)

Kindest regards,

Kevin

> Dear Kevin
>
> There are two common hyper-estrogens that I know of that are common the
> environment. One is found in maize and peanuts which have had (the
> omnipresent) Fusarium Roseum mould growing on them. This is very common
> in peanut fields and in wet-ish maize growing areas. It is a pink mould
> and it leaves behind two types of dangerous mycotoxin metabolites:
> aflatoxin and zearalanone, the latter being a hyper-estrogen. Cooking
> oil with elevated levels of it (like corn oil) are removed from sale.
>
> It acts the same way as ordinary estrogen but with far more efficacy -
> if that is the right word. One fear is that sharp rises of it in a
> pregnant woman will act the same way as RU86 or similar 'abortion
> pills'. You can induce an abortion by raising the estrogen level in the
> woman and then dropping it suddenly. The drop causes an abortion. I
> think the first abortion pill worked that way.
>
> I wrote a rural food preparation and quality report for CARE Int'l once,
> wondering if spontaneous abortion in women in Swaziland was seasonal,
> the idea being that as the maize gets older and mouldier from last
> season, people eating it would have rising zearalanone levels which
> would suddenly drop when the new crop came in about mid December.
>
> Unfortunately there are no statistics to analyse.
>
> So, evaporated Bakelite (the first plastic ever made, I think) falls
> into the class of substances to worry about as far as I understand its
> properties. I was surprised to see it as the stiffening ingredient in
> the glass fibre we buy to insulation our bread baking and proving ovens.
> The 'boards' are wonderful products to work with in that they are
> self-supporting and easy to handle. We use the lowest Bakelite level
> available which is 2% because of the better insulation it gives. I
> think the K value is about 0.033 but I can't remember for sure.
>
> After the Bakelite boils out, at least out of the inner part of the
> insulation against the oven, there still remains some on the colder
> side, but is someone turns the thing up to 325 C and leaves it there
> with nothing inside the insulation temperature soars and it all
> disappears. What is left if the fluffy stuff we are used to seeing
> between house wall studs.
>
> Evaporating Bakelite has a distinctive smell which you can sample by
> holding a pot handle in a flame!
>
> Regards from
> Crispin just back from Summit City (JHB)
>
> +++++++++++++=
>

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Sun Mar 14 19:43:27 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
In-Reply-To: <00ea01c40a1e$0b18fc60$bb9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.204327.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

Hi all
in a previous message, Kevin Chisholm on 3/14/04 19:42 at
kchisholm@ca.inter.net wrote:

> Dear Bruce
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "AES" <aes@bitstream.net>
> To: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 7:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [STOVES] chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
>
>
>> What type of stove to develop? Again, depends on the locale. Biogas,
>> Gasifiers, Rocket stoves, Solar Cookers and Haybox Cookers...lots of
> options
>> so I don't believe it makes sense to determine any one type of stove or
>> design should be promoted for every location.
>
> OK... there are two separate and distinct issues here: 1: IAQ. 2: Stove
> efficiency and other stoving considerations. Clearly, the major IAQ
> consideration is air quality degradation from the products of combustion.
> With a chimney or hood, any stove system can be used, and its combustion and
> cooking products can be led outside the living space.
>>
Consider that here is the crux of the problem of our discussion Kevin. It
isn't that there are two issues here. There are many interrelated issues.
Perhaps this is the type of thinking pattern used by the USAID folks
referred to in two posts concerning LPG use in rural area. Not enough
weight given to the rest of the equation and in the developing world
reality. The campesinos got LPG stoves through USA tax $ but mostly don't
use them because, often LPG isn't delivered, LPG cost money to use
(especially in school lunch programs).

>> While I appreciate all the research and work in getting that information
> out
>> to those in the field, at some point we need to realize that this work has
>> created better guidelines for improved stoves. That is stoves that use
> less
>> fuel, have cleaner emissions, an ability to remove the smoke from the
>> house, and an ability to not make any emissions at all. Beyond that let
> the
>> locality decide which from all those options is best suited for an area
>> based on geography, climate and culture.
>
> Good point. Is there anyone who wants clean inside air? Or is the preference
> of those in the Field to get good data? :-)
Actually Kevin, clean air is further down on the priority list for most
rural folks, even though lack of it is a tremendous health and longevity
hazard. This is why many of us have come to believe in the need for
holistic solutions involving cultural adaptation and participation of
solution development by target populations. Then what ever solutions that
can be offered, they become their solutions and more likely to be
implemented.

>> I realize this point seems obvious in the development world. However
> USAID
>> pushing for LP gas stoves everywhere in their service territory is a
> classic
>> example of how we need to remind ourselves that the folks who know best
> what
>> stoves work best...are those who use them every day.
>
>>
>> Your comments are welcomed.
>>
> OK... where people want to improve IAQ, would you see any better way to do
> it than with chimneys or hoods?
You are right Kevin, hoods and chimneys are good ways to get bad air out of
living areas.
How is your off grid power connection coming?
Un abrazo
David
--
David Whitfield
Director
CEDESOL
P.O. Box 4723
La Paz Bolivia South America
591-2-2414882 office 591 715 16356 cellular

solar1@zuper.net
aguaviva@zuper.net
dewv@yahoo.com
http://www.solarcooking.org/media/broadcast/whitfield/bio-whitfield.htm
http://www.quickinfo247.com/86196/FCS
http://www.thehungersite.com

From aes at BITSTREAM.NET Sun Mar 14 21:48:28 2004
From: aes at BITSTREAM.NET (AES)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.204828.0600.AES@BITSTREAM.NET>

Kevin, David, all,

When I responded earlier it was only to point out that the design that ends
up in the cooking area (may that be a home with a leaky roof or outside with
no roof) should be determined by each site based on all the detailed
research, experimentation and real world experiences. With this in mind, I
further do not advocate a design that includes nor excludes a chimney or
hood. That, I believe, should be decided on the site where you are working
based on several factors including input from those who will use the stoves.

> OK... where people want to improve IAQ, would you see any better way to do
> it than with chimneys or hoods?

There ARE other ways of reducing IAQ than just using a chimney or hood. I
have to agree that to say this is the only method is quite simplistic. They
are a method of improving IAQ, just not the only one.

An example is putting the cooking area into a covered, more ventilated
location. Might be a good idea, might be the cook throws knives at you for
messing with her kitchen. But it is a possibility.

Then there is the use of the sun for cooking, warming, heating water,
pre-heating water which all can reduce the use of firewood and by default
improve IAQ. This is a better technology in areas where sunshine is
abundant. I know that this stoves list does not hear well the argument of
using solar cookers but it is a technology that does work in many areas and
improves IAQ. Hard to argue that it is not a clean technology.

Of course the other technology that gets little air time (or is that ear
time?) is the Haybox/Hot Bag technology. Again, clean technology with no
emissions. See also, improves IAQ.

USAID looks down a single path that says firewood is bad so they will fund
LPG stoves and only LPG can be used for USAID funded school programs. Burns
fairly clean right? Perhaps, but it is a simplistic view that it will be
used by all villagers at all times. When the tanks can't get to the village
or the price is too expensive they won't be used. Back to the old wood
stoves so no improvement of IAQ.

The point is, any of the above mentioned technologies have good points and
bad points, not unlike chimneys and hoods. The stovers discussed chimneys
before and there are issues of material, maintenance, cost, rain leaks at
the roof, etc.

I will leave with one more example. A village in the USAID food program is
given a LPG stove and tank to use, but the price for gas is considered too
high and so it is not used. However, used in conjunction with a haybox
cooker and a skirt, two cheap solutions, the LPG tank now lasts 2 to 3 times
longer and the cost is reduced. Question: Is it cheaper and more effective
to improve IAQ by providing them with a LPG stove and technologies to
increase the efficiency of the gas system or an improved biomass cooker with
a chimney assuming they will not use the LPG system? Answer: Depends on
many local factors. I don't know, I don't even know which school we are
talking about. I think maybe we don't know either because it is rare that
we combine the best of the best technologies.

Will all the systems work perfectly all the time at improving IAQ? I doubt
it but by making the changes we know up to now I can safely say that we have
the ability to greatly improve IAQ in most situations.

Ears wide open,

Bruce Stahlberg

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Sun Mar 14 22:41:22 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:30:59 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
Message-ID: <SUN.14.MAR.2004.234122.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "AES" <aes@bitstream.net>

..del..>
> There ARE other ways of reducing IAQ than just using a chimney or hood. I
> have to agree that to say this is the only method is quite simplistic.
They
> are a method of improving IAQ, just not the only one.

Sure. One obvious one is LPG. However, in general, I would suggest that the
major problem areas in improving IAQ are as follows:
1: Existing housing stock with inside vented stoves using biomass: chimney
or hood are an excellent solution.
2: New or existing housing stock, where the option of upgrading the stove
system exists. Certainly, an improved stove will result in better IAQ than
would be attained with an "unimproved" stove. However, an improved stove
with a hood or chimney would be even better.

>
> An example is putting the cooking area into a covered, more ventilated
> location. Might be a good idea, might be the cook throws knives at you
for
> messing with her kitchen. But it is a possibility.

Certainly, that is an option, but in line with the "resistance to change"
problem, it may be dificult to implement.
>
> Then there is the use of the sun for cooking, warming, heating water,
> pre-heating water which all can reduce the use of firewood and by default
> improve IAQ. This is a better technology in areas where sunshine is
> abundant. I know that this stoves list does not hear well the argument of
> using solar cookers but it is a technology that does work in many areas
and
> improves IAQ. Hard to argue that it is not a clean technology.
>
There is no question in my mind that "non-combustion cooking" gives better
air quality than "combustion cooking" of any kind. However, where
"combustion cooking is, or must, be used, then there is also no question in
my mind that venting of the products of combustion OUTSIDE the living space
is in all cases better than allowing them to enter teh living space. (I
don't think anyone on the Stoves list is against these "non-combustion tech
nologies"... it is simply a case that they are more interested in dealing
with the combustion related problems.)

> Of course the other technology that gets little air time (or is that ear
> time?) is the Haybox/Hot Bag technology. Again, clean technology with no
> emissions. See also, improves IAQ.
>
This is indeed a great system where it can be used.

> USAID looks down a single path that says firewood is bad so they will fund
> LPG stoves and only LPG can be used for USAID funded school programs.

Certainly, a poorly attended fire, in a poor stove system is bad. Would
anyone know why they wouldn't have considered systems that were designed
with adquate chimneys and hoods?

Burns
> fairly clean right?

There are three aspects to LPG pollution: 1: Degradation from products of
combustion, and 2: Pollution from the burning of cooking residues on the
outside of pots. 3: Pollution from cooking. eg grease fume. In addition to
the chimney, a cooking hood can improve IAQ even further.

Perhaps, but it is a simplistic view that it will be
> used by all villagers at all times. When the tanks can't get to the
village
> or the price is too expensive they won't be used. Back to the old wood
> stoves so no improvement of IAQ.
>
That is such an obvious problem, it puzzles me how it was overlooked.

> The point is, any of the above mentioned technologies have good points and
> bad points, not unlike chimneys and hoods. The stovers discussed chimneys
> before and there are issues of material, maintenance, cost, rain leaks at
> the roof, etc.
>
There is certainly a problem with chimneys, in terms of cleaning, corrosion
and roof leaks from poor installation. There are other problems, relating to
the priority given to IAQ. However, all other things being equal, I would
suggest that chimneys and hoods are the most cost effective way to address
the IAQ problem.

> I will leave with one more example. A village in the USAID food program
is
> given a LPG stove and tank to use, but the price for gas is considered too
> high and so it is not used. However, used in conjunction with a haybox
> cooker and a skirt, two cheap solutions, the LPG tank now lasts 2 to 3
times
> longer and the cost is reduced. Question: Is it cheaper and more
effective
> to improve IAQ by providing them with a LPG stove and technologies to
> increase the efficiency of the gas system or an improved biomass cooker
with
> a chimney assuming they will not use the LPG system? Answer: Depends on
> many local factors. I don't know, I don't even know which school we are
> talking about. I think maybe we don't know either because it is rare that
> we combine the best of the best technologies.

You certainly make a good point here, that being the need to adopt the
technologies that are most appropriate for the area. Often, two or more
technologies can work "better" than one single technology. For example,
"hybrid power" consisting of a solar array and a supplemental diesel could
give a lower "least total cost" than either one alone.
>
> Will all the systems work perfectly all the time at improving IAQ? I
doubt
> it but by making the changes we know up to now I can safely say that we
have
> the ability to greatly improve IAQ in most situations.

Agreed. Given that I was faced with the task of improving the IAQ in a
specific home, the FIRST question to ask is: How much money is available for
the solution? With $10, $50, $100 or $500, the "permissable solutions" would
be different.
>
Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Mon Mar 15 00:53:22 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
Message-ID: <MON.15.MAR.2004.075322.0200.>

Dear Stovers

I would like y'all to know that the EPA project which made it to Round 2
in Swaziland (Renewable Energy Assoc of Swaziland) includes the testing
of the effect and cost and ability to be localized of hoods and vents,
architectural changes and improved stoves. I don't yet know if it will
be funded but the plan does address the worthiness of claiming that
hoods will solve all or most of the problems at a low price compared
with, say, an improved stove or very careful wood preparation etc. The
idea it to quantify the improvement of single and multiple
interventions.

Vents and holes can let in mosquitoes, they are not cheap to fit, they
are not all that cheap to buy. They are easy to make. They are a fire
hazard on a grass roof. They can be a fire hazard to a neighbouring
grass roof. They cool the room considerably which is a problem with
heating in winter or long cold summer rains. They pull cold air in the
doors and window cracks and vent hot air out of the room.

Reality bites!

Regards
Crispin

++++++++++++

Dear Bruce
----- Original Message -----
..del..>
> There ARE other ways of reducing IAQ than just using a chimney or
> hood. I have to agree that to say this is the only method is quite
> simplistic.
They
> are a method of improving IAQ, just not the only one.

Sure. One obvious one is LPG. However, in general, I would suggest that
the major problem areas in improving IAQ are as follows:
1: Existing housing stock with inside vented stoves using biomass:
chimney or hood are an excellent solution.
2: New or existing housing stock, where the option of upgrading the
stove system exists. Certainly, an improved stove will result in better
IAQ than would be attained with an "unimproved" stove. However, an
improved stove with a hood or chimney would be even better.

>
> An example is putting the cooking area into a covered, more ventilated

> location. Might be a good idea, might be the cook throws knives at
> you
for
> messing with her kitchen. But it is a possibility.

Certainly, that is an option, but in line with the "resistance to
change" problem, it may be dificult to implement.
>
[snip]

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Mon Mar 15 01:04:14 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Blowpipe to increase energy
Message-ID: <MON.15.MAR.2004.080414.0200.>

Dear Drs Prasad and Karve

Prasad wrote:
"I'm in wholehearted agreement with the opinion of Dr.Karve on the
various methods suggested for providing secondary air. Stated plainly
secondary air can be provided, in the situation that Karve finds himself
in, only with the assistance of a chimney. But chimney requires careful
attention. But the problems faciong the lady who collects fuel do not
provide her with the wherewithalls to handle the chimney problems."

And Karve wrote
"...When the stove was ignited, the flue gases escaped with high
velocity through the long pipe but sucked in additional air through the
side holes by ventury effect. They do burn without smoke, but they are
too tall for the Indian housewife, who sits down on the floor for the
cooking. "

This may seem simple and obvious, but how about building a stove to a
height that works well in providing secondary air (in the case of the
Vesto it is 445mm) and then lowering the stove into the ground in a
small pit so that the working height, rather than the actual stove
height suits the Indian cook? We can solve stove height issues by
raising the cook or lowering the stove. It works with large bending
brakes which sometimes have a lower jaw that extends 2 metres in to the
ground.

The stove pit can be sized to provide an element of preheating for the
primary air allowing the stive to burn lower quality or damper fuels
which would be an additional benefit.

Is this a pit-iful stove solution?

Regards
Crispin

From jeff.forssell at CFL.SE Mon Mar 15 03:09:05 2004
From: jeff.forssell at CFL.SE (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Blowpipe to increase energy - stove height and local
traditions
Message-ID: <MON.15.MAR.2004.090905.0100.JEFF.FORSSELL@CFL.SE>

> Vesto it is 445mm) and then lowering the stove into the ground in a
> small pit so that the working height, rather than the actual stove
> height suits the Indian cook? We can solve stove height issues by

About stove height problems and local (Tanzania ugali) traditions:

I've snipped from my page:

http://biphome.spray.se/jeff.forssell/biofuel/skol/skolstov.html

"I talked to the cooks about what I thought might be a good stove. I thought it should be close to the [existent] chimney for many reasons: easier/cheaper to build, easier to get the draft flowing, stable placement, out of the way. It turned out that they didn't like that when they would be making ugali (which is a daily staple food). When you make ugali you boil water then mix in the maize flour while mixing it with a big wooden paddle. The fire is continuing and if you don't keep working the thick mass it will burn against the walls of the barrel. The cooks wanted to be able to move all the way around the pot while intensively pressing the paddle between the pot walls and the ugali. This also meant that they didn't want the stove to be higher, because then they wouldn't get good leverage on the paddle."

Jeff Forssell
SWEDISH AGENCY FOR FLEXIBLE LEARNING (CFL)
Box 3024
SE-871 03 H?RN?SAND /Sweden
http://www.cfl.se/?sid=60
+46(0)611-55 79 48 (Work) +46(0)611-55 79 80 (Fax Work)
+46(0)611-22 1 44 (Home) ( mobil: 070- 35 80 306; [070-4091514])

residence:
Gamla Karlebyv?gen 14 / SE-871 33 H?rn?sand /Sweden

e-mail: every workday: jeff.forssell@cfl.se <mailto:jeff.forssell@cfl.se>
Note my old mail address, jf@ssvh.se, is no longer active
(travel, visiting: jeff_forssell@hotmail.com & MSMessenger)

Personal homepage: < http://www.torget.se/users/i/iluhya/index.htm>
My village technology page: http://home.bip.net/jeff.forssell

Instant messengers Odigo 792701 (ICQ: 55800587; NM/MSM use hotmail address)

From english at KINGSTON.NET Mon Mar 15 06:46:18 2004
From: english at KINGSTON.NET (english@KINGSTON.NET)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
In-Reply-To: <014f01c40a3f$6efd06b0$bb9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <MON.15.MAR.2004.064618.0500.>

Kevin,
Your dollar range below belies some of your difficulty understanding
other peoples approaches with this IAQ
issue. Perhaps the first increment should be $1 and the last $10.

Alex

> Agreed. Given that I was faced with the task of improving the IAQ in a
> specific home, the FIRST question to ask is: How much money is available for
> the solution? With $10, $50, $100 or $500, the "permissable solutions" would
> be different.
> >
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin Chisholm
>

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Mon Mar 15 08:55:46 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods, what about cleaner dry fuel
Message-ID: <MON.15.MAR.2004.095546.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Alex
----- Original Message -----
From: <english@kingston.net>

> Kevin,
> Your dollar range below belies some of your difficulty understanding
> other peoples approaches with this IAQ
> issue. Perhaps the first increment should be $1 and the last $10.
>
> Alex

Thank you!! For those of us who do not have the benefit of first hand
experience working in Third World conditions, could you please suggest what
would be an acceptable cost for the materials that need to be purchased?

Specifically:
1: What would you suggest as being the "permissible total cost" for a
functional stove, that was not particularly energy efficient, and that put
out an exhaust which resulted in the IAQ not meeting desired standards for
IAQ?
2: What would you suggest as being the "permissible total cost" for an
"improved" stove, that was "significantly" more energy efficient, and that
put out an exhaust that was not particularly objectionable, but which still
resulted in the IAQ not meeting desired standards for IAQ?
3: What would you suggest as being the "permissible cost increment" to
install a chimney or hood that resulted in an acceptable IAQ?

I realize that these questions are very much like "How long is a piece of
string?" However, anything you could reasonably suggest would be a valuable
guideline.

Would you also have further guidelines on the cost of local labor and
materials? Because of the difficulty of translating real costs from the
Developed World to the Third World, perhaps for these purposes, we should
only be considering the cost of materials that must be purchased from "off
site"? For example, this would include metal materials, fabricated metals,
and "factory made insulation", but would not include, for example,
insulation made from local clays.

Does this look like a reasonable way to proceed? If not, could you suggest a
better way?

Thanks very much for your helpful input.

Kevin Chisholm

comprised of a stove and chimney or hood?

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Mar 14 22:18:18 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: chimneys and hoods
Message-ID: <MON.15.MAR.2004.084818.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

During winters, we experience in India, a phenomenon that the weather
experts call inversion. Due to this phenomenon, pollutants let into the air
by any activity on the ground remain suspended in the air near the ground
itself. People generally have a definite time during the day when the food
is cooked. This time is determined by the time when they eat their meals and
it is a part of their culture. One needs only to walk around in any city or
village in India at about 6 p.m. to experience the smog. The chimneys and
hoods would convert the problem of indoor air pollution into that of outdoor
air pollution (clean the house and throw the garbage out of the window). We
have been conducting a large scale cookstove programme in India. There are
households that insist on having a stove with a chimney, but there are also
other households that do not want a chimney. There are practical
difficulties in fixing a chimney or a hood in a rural kitchen. Even if a
chimney has been installed, somebody has to climb on the roof, which often
disturbs the tiles or the thatch, so that the roof starts leaking. Anything
to do with a cookstove is often considered to be in the woman's domain of
duties. Therefore, the men would not clean the chimney, and the woman would
not be able to climb on the roof to do this job. One can of course solve
this problem by creating a new profession, namely that of a chimney cleaner.
But in a village having just a couple of hundred cookstoves, such a
professional would find it hard to sustain himself just by cleaning the
chimneys. Therefore, we offer a number of different solutions to the
villagers and let them choose what they want. By increasing the efficiency
of combustion, one reduces the amount of pollution and by increasing the
efficiency of the stove, one reduces the amount of fuel used. Together, the
two factors may contribute to reducing IAQ by almost 75 to 80%. By using
processed fuels like charcoal or biogas, the pollution can be reduced to
practically zero level.
A.D.Karve

From ventfory at IAFRICA.COM Tue Mar 16 05:07:57 2004
From: ventfory at IAFRICA.COM (Kobus)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <TUE.16.MAR.2004.120757.0200.VENTFORY@IAFRICA.COM>

Dear Kevin (Paul, Tom, Crispin),

It was Paul's question, but I myself find your reply very informative.

Kevin wrote:

>Dear Kobus
>
> Ceramic fibre is great where it can be used, and is virtually without
equal,
> in terms of its insulating capability and low thermal inertia.

It also radiates and reflects infra red very effectively from its white wall surface back into fuels.

> It has two serious failings: It has little to no resistance to physical
> damage, and is susceptible to chemical attack by ash.
>
> It must have physical protection from such factors as:
> 1: Being impacted and torn by the fuel
> 2: Being impacted by stove and stack cleaning operations
> 3: Being damaged by high gas velocities.

[KV] I agree on all the points above. I also found to my surprise that
ceramic fibre makes for a remarkably effective and reliable combustion
chamber to gasify chunky charcoal and biomass briquettes with ease.
Charcoal combustion is very abrasive and causes severe temperature changes. Cold
surfaces heat up very quickly and reach extraordinary high temperatures, so metal often warps with time. Ask any wood fuel owners here and they'll tell
you they prefer not to use charcoal in the long term for the sole reason that it reduces the lifetimes of their stoves.

Ceramic fibre stands up remarkably well against charcoal burning and
withstands sidewall damage and extreme temperature changes. Refuelling with
low mass charcoal straight from a charcoal bag is also not risky at all, as
opposed to shaking out wood splinters into the chamber. Also very little
ash is left behind by charcoal (2 - 10%), i.e. the stove does not have to be
cleaned out afterwards - small paint brush has been known to work very well
when more than 400 g of charcoal is batch or continuous-fed burned. Has no
stack as it is an open top gasifier.

Obviously one does get wear and tear. The prototype charcoal stove given to
a black peri-urban household here, (sidewall 2 cm thick) has abrasion lines
running vertically up and down, having penetrated about 0.3 - 0.6 cm. They
have had the prototype for almost one and a half years now. I have now
refined a stove design which facilitates the easy removal and replacement of a ceramic insert. Two years down the line (projected lifetime) the stove owner simply brings in his stove and his ceramic liner is replaced for ?15 USD (current cost). I experience high gas velocities, but its effect on abrasion has not been considered, will keep an
eye on that.

Briquette - Almost no abrasion (compared to fuel wood) as the briquette is
not in contact with the sidewall. Low gas velocity. Lifetime: expected at
around 4 years before having to replace the insert. Only time will tell,
but since I started in mid 2003 using ceramic fibres in testing briquette
combustion, I have not yet observed any visible wear. (Richard can back me up here as well). It has a lower chamber height, less expensive (?10 USD).

I agree that punctures and tears are one of the biggest dangers affecting
chamber lifetimes, but this product with the texture and feel of polystyrene
is proving to be remarkably durable. Steel liners rust/warp and clay liners
crack, what are their expected lifetimes and replacement costs?

> It must have "chemical protection" from the ash resulting from combustion:

> 1: The fibre insulation can be used in areas where fluxing due to fuel
dusts
> will not be a consideration.
> 2: If there are fluxing dusts in the region, then the fibre insulation
must
> be isolated from them by mechanical protection, at least in the region
where
> the temperatures are such that the ash and fibre will react.

[KV] Ash attack...hmm have seen some visible changes to the sleeve, but the
thick chamber wall is keeping it together. Some, hairline cracks are
prevalent, but are superficial at this stage.

Thanks for this guideline though, a protective agent mechanical or chemical
might come into play in the charcoal stove since charcoal fills the lower 16
cm section of the chamber whereas the upper 21 cm will therefore be less
prone to abrasion and ash damage.

Application of what chemical can slow ash attack? silica?. The local
producers here mix in a rigidiser/silicon hardener developed by SASOL.

> Ash chemistry could be really important. For example, rice straw, with a
> high silica ash, may not cause a problem to exposed ceramic fibre
> insulation, but wood, with an ash higher in Calcium and Potassium, may
> destroy it in short order. Similarly, if "salty waste" was burned, for
> example, a box that contained salt, and which still had some left when it
> was burned, could make a Sodium Oxide fume that would flux the ceramic
fibre
> rapidly.

[KV] Interesting. I wonder how much Calcium and Potassium is prevalent in
charcoal, same as biomass?

> The fibre insulation is great stuff where it can be used, but it is
> difficult to use in stoves advantageously unless provision is made to work
> with its advantages, and to work around its disadvantages.

[KV] Well said.

Regards

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kobus" <ventfory@IAFRICA.COM>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 7:25 AM
> Subject: [STOVES] Ceramic fiber
>
>
> Paul
>
> Let me be the first to correct your figures after reading the excellent
> report by Prof. Grover, but I also know a bit about ceramic fibres - from
> personal experience. The
> temperatures a typical ceramic fibre cast material can withstand is 1300?C
> not 13000?C, also obtainable in the 1600?C range in RSA - just costs a bit
> more. For mineral wool and glass fibre I suggest removing some
> noughts at the end too (700?C and 450?C respectively and respectfully).
>
> Contact me off-list and I'll put you in touch with a local supplier (RSA).
>
> Regards
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul S. Anderson <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: 15 February 2004 23:42
> Subject: [STOVES] Ceramic fiber
>
>
> > Stovers,
> >
> > I was reading at the following website:
> >
> > http://www.ikweb.com/enuff/public_html/Dream/paper-grover.htm
> >
> > which said
> > &&&&&&&&&&&
> > Apart from achieving complete combustion, it is also desired to minimize
> > these losses which can be achieved by using proper light-weight and
> > effective insulation. For this insulation an optimum use of ceramic
fibre
> > blanket of 25 mm thick is recommend for a "Dream Stove".
> > Ceramic fibre blankets have very low thermal conductivity, about 16% of
> any
> > dense refractory material, are light weight (65 - 192 kg/m3) and
extremely
> > cost effective. The relative cost of ceramic fibre blanket of 25mm
> > thickness is about 20 percent of an equivalent 135 mm dense refractory.
> > Ceramic fibres can withstand temperatures up to 13000 C compared to
> mineral
> > wool upto 7000 C and glass fibre upto 4500 C. Use of ceramic fibre can
> > drastically improve the performance of a cookstove.
> >
> > &&&&&&&&&&&&& end of quote &&&&&&&
> >
> > Can someone please give me some info on ceramic fiber and how to get it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Tue Mar 16 07:42:16 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
In-Reply-To: <00c701c40b3e$abe97c20$aa271ec4@kobus>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.MAR.2004.064216.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 12:07:57PM +0200, Kobus wrote:
(snip)
>
> I agree that punctures and tears are one of the biggest dangers affecting
> chamber lifetimes, but this product with the texture and feel of polystyrene
> is proving to be remarkably durable. Steel liners rust/warp and clay liners
> crack, what are their expected lifetimes and replacement costs?
>
Hopefully you are aware also of the health dangers associated with
thermoceramic fibers? While they are indeed excellent insulative and refractory
materials, they have also been banned in some places due to the high cancer
risk, so wearing protective masks, gloves, and clothing when working with
thermoceramics is a must. I'd think this especially so when removing a worn
liner.
I don't know if "metal lath" is available in your area, but it makes a good
protector for the insulation, at least from physical damage, although,
obviously, not from chemical damage. Metal lath is a thin steel sheet that is
stamped or extruded in a press to make a base for plaster or stucco. It lasted
over a year in my big stove where I was throwing large chunks of wood and cut up
pallets into it. And it's cheap, at least here.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET Tue Mar 16 08:18:57 2004
From: kchisholm at CA.INTER.NET (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <TUE.16.MAR.2004.091857.0400.KCHISHOLM@CA.INTER.NET>

Dear Kobus

> It must have "chemical protection" from the ash resulting from combustion:

...del...
[KV] Ash attack...
...del..
...del...
Application of what chemical can slow ash attack? silica?. The local
producers here mix in a rigidiser/silicon hardener developed by SASOL.

That is an extremely heavy question. If you are not familiar with "Ternary
Phase Diagrams", you may wish to visit:
http://web.umr.edu/~ownby/2001%20Tutorials/Calcia%20Alumina%20Silica%202.ppt

So... depending where your ceramic fiber insulation chemistry is on the
phase diagram now, an addition of silica could raise, lower, or have no
effect on the melting point of the ceramic fibre. As a very general
statement, you would be "on the right track" with "more of the same", and
"on the wrong track" with "something different." More specifically, if you
use one of the existing components, there is a chance that you can "move to
a region of higher melting point", but if you introduce another component
into the system, then almost without fail, you will lower the fluxing point.

"Really good fluxing components" (AKA stuff that is very damaging to ceramic
fibres :-) would include K2O, Na2O, B2O5, FeO, or any of their salts. Most
ceramic fibre is an Aluminum Silicate, with or without Calcium. If your
particular ceramic fibre does not have CaO in it now, then CaO would most
likely be bad. On the other hand, if it already has CaO, then there is a
good chance that adding more would raise the fluxing point.

The reason for this apparent paradox is simply that CaO can be added to an
Al2O3-SiO2 mixture to lower its fusion point to a temperature where it can
be spun easily. Adding more CaO can often get you out of the "low melting
temperature valley"

[KV] Interesting. I wonder how much Calcium and Potassium is prevalent in
charcoal, same as biomass?

How long is a piece of string?? :-) It varies all over the place, depending
on the source species and area where the source biomass grew. Biomass
growing on calcareous soils generally have more calcium than acidic soils,
simply because more lime is available to the plant. Hardwoods have more
Potassium in them than softwoods; this is why "the OldFolks" burned hardwood
wood to get more "potash".

The "wonderful world of phase diagrams" is fascinatingly complex. It is very
important when selecting refractories for steel making systems, and when
working with clays for pottery.

Best wishes,

Kevin Chisholm

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Tue Mar 16 09:48:28 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: FW: Introducing new (?) STOVES membership candidate ...
Punchibanda
In-Reply-To: <ABEBKEIPJJMAHGKOLMFNOEBKCEAA.raywije@eureka.lk>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.MAR.2004.084828.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Dear D. M. (and Ray), (and to many others)

WELCOME to the Stoves List Serve.

I (and many others) hope that both of you (and Ray) will send us a message
about your background, work, interests, resources, etc. Once we know
your interests, etc, we can better appreciate your interactions with the
whole list serve (and with some "off-list" discussions.)

This message applies to all who seldom write on the Stoves List Serve, but
are consistent readers.

Thanks in advance,

Paul

At 06:37 PM 3/13/04 +0600, Ray Wijewardene wrote:
>Dear Tom, I respectfully submit - for inclusion in the STOVES list - the
>name of Mr.D.M.Punchibanda of the Sri Lanka National Engineering Research
>and Development (NERD?) Centre who is perhaps (nay, undoubtedly) Sri Lanka's
>most productive and innovative 'stoves' developer. His email address is
><bandara@nerdc.lk> and has most unfortunately been delayed for over two
>years due to (I have been given to understand as) 'technical problems'. All
>those who attended the super 'stoves' conference organised by the Karve's at
>Pune will remember him and his excellent presentation there. I am only very
>VERY sorry that these same 'technical problems' precluded his participation
>at - and contribution to - the sequel in Seattle.
>
>May please request that the excellent report of the Seattle conference (by
>Ron Larson et-al) be sent to Punchibanda... as also Ron's - and others's -
>more recent dissertations relating thereto.
>
>Sincerely....
>
>Ray Wijewardene.

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Tue Mar 16 12:46:42 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Rootfuel was: Re: [STOVES] Fw: Seed oil lamps,
and "rootfuel"
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040227201123.023e1100@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.MAR.2004.114642.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

What the heck is wrong with the listserv that so many old posts are coming
through now? And I don't think these are duplicates, it seems that they were
stuck somewhere, which is pretty weird.

Harmon

From snkm at BTL.NET Tue Mar 16 13:07:29 2004
From: snkm at BTL.NET (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Jatropha oil
Message-ID: <TUE.16.MAR.2004.120729.0600.SNKM@BTL.NET>

Dear Listers;

For some reason I can't explain old postings from my address are showing up
on this list.

Certainly I am not sending them the second time!!

Sorry for this inconvenience though.

Peter / Belize

At 03:42 PM 2/28/2004 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>At 06:45 AM 2/27/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
>>The potential of Jatropha oil as a diesel substitute has already been
>>recognised by Indian scientists, and several landowners in India have even
>>started plantations of this tree. It is however still a very low yielding
>>wild plant, yielding on an average about 200 to 500 kg seed per acre.
>

From ventfory at IAFRICA.COM Wed Mar 17 01:37:17 2004
From: ventfory at IAFRICA.COM (Kobus)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <WED.17.MAR.2004.083717.0200.VENTFORY@IAFRICA.COM>

Harmon, Kevin

Thanks for your responses.

The information will definitely benefit not only me, but many here on the
list.

Yes, I have been wearing gloves and masks when cutting or drilling into the
stuff. Does anyone know of a drilling technique to prevent the fibre breaking up on the ID of the chamber when drilling into it from the outside?

The metal lath sounds like a good idea, it will certainly prevent excessive wearing out of the sleeve. I'll see if I can get it here.

I would greatly appreciate anyone coming forward with additional information on
the safe use of ceramic fibre and its associated health risks especially when using it for burning biomass.

Regards

ventfory@iafrica.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm@ca.inter.net>
To: Kobus <ventfory@IAFRICA.COM>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: 16 March 2004 15:18
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Ceramic fiber

> Dear Kobus
>
> > It must have "chemical protection" from the ash resulting from
combustion:
>
> ...del...
> [KV] Ash attack...
> ...del..
> ...del...
> Application of what chemical can slow ash attack? silica?. The local
> producers here mix in a rigidiser/silicon hardener developed by SASOL.
>
> That is an extremely heavy question. If you are not familiar with "Ternary
> Phase Diagrams", you may wish to visit:
>
http://web.umr.edu/~ownby/2001%20Tutorials/Calcia%20Alumina%20Silica%202.ppt
>
> So... depending where your ceramic fiber insulation chemistry is on the
> phase diagram now, an addition of silica could raise, lower, or have no
> effect on the melting point of the ceramic fibre. As a very general
> statement, you would be "on the right track" with "more of the same", and
> "on the wrong track" with "something different." More specifically, if you
> use one of the existing components, there is a chance that you can "move
to
> a region of higher melting point", but if you introduce another component
> into the system, then almost without fail, you will lower the fluxing
point.
>
> "Really good fluxing components" (AKA stuff that is very damaging to
ceramic
> fibres :-) would include K2O, Na2O, B2O5, FeO, or any of their salts. Most
> ceramic fibre is an Aluminum Silicate, with or without Calcium. If your
> particular ceramic fibre does not have CaO in it now, then CaO would most
> likely be bad. On the other hand, if it already has CaO, then there is a
> good chance that adding more would raise the fluxing point.
>
> The reason for this apparent paradox is simply that CaO can be added to an
> Al2O3-SiO2 mixture to lower its fusion point to a temperature where it can
> be spun easily. Adding more CaO can often get you out of the "low melting
> temperature valley"
>
> > Ash chemistry could be really important. For example, rice straw, with a
> > high silica ash, may not cause a problem to exposed ceramic fibre
> > insulation, but wood, with an ash higher in Calcium and Potassium, may
> > destroy it in short order. Similarly, if "salty waste" was burned, for
> > example, a box that contained salt, and which still had some left when
it
> > was burned, could make a Sodium Oxide fume that would flux the ceramic
> fibre
> > rapidly.
>
> [KV] Interesting. I wonder how much Calcium and Potassium is prevalent in
> charcoal, same as biomass?
>
> How long is a piece of string?? :-) It varies all over the place,
depending
> on the source species and area where the source biomass grew. Biomass
> growing on calcareous soils generally have more calcium than acidic soils,
> simply because more lime is available to the plant. Hardwoods have more
> Potassium in them than softwoods; this is why "the OldFolks" burned
hardwood
> wood to get more "potash".
>
> The "wonderful world of phase diagrams" is fascinatingly complex. It is
very
> important when selecting refractories for steel making systems, and when
> working with clays for pottery.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin Chisholm

**************
AND ALSO
**************

----- Original Message -----
From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: 16 March 2004 14:42
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Ceramic fiber

> On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 12:07:57PM +0200, Kobus wrote:
> (snip)
> >
> > I agree that punctures and tears are one of the biggest dangers
affecting
> > chamber lifetimes, but this product with the texture and feel of
polystyrene
> > is proving to be remarkably durable. Steel liners rust/warp and clay
liners
> > crack, what are their expected lifetimes and replacement costs?
> >
> Hopefully you are aware also of the health dangers associated with
> thermoceramic fibers? While they are indeed excellent insulative and
refractory
> materials, they have also been banned in some places due to the high
cancer
> risk, so wearing protective masks, gloves, and clothing when working with
> thermoceramics is a must. I'd think this especially so when removing a
worn
> liner.
> I don't know if "metal lath" is available in your area, but it makes a
good
> protector for the insulation, at least from physical damage, although,
> obviously, not from chemical damage. Metal lath is a thin steel sheet that
is
> stamped or extruded in a press to make a base for plaster or stucco. It
lasted
> over a year in my big stove where I was throwing large chunks of wood and
cut up
> pallets into it. And it's cheap, at least here.
>
>
> --
> Harmon Seaver
> CyberShamanix
> http://www.cybershamanix.com

From bandara at NERDC.LK Wed Mar 17 04:27:41 2004
From: bandara at NERDC.LK (Punchibandara)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: FW: Introducing new (?) STOVES membership candidate ...
Punchibanda
Message-ID: <WED.17.MAR.2004.152741.0600.BANDARA@NERDC.LK>

Dear Paul and others

I thank you all for welcomming me to the stoves list serve.

I expect to communoicate with you regarding my R & D on wood stoves and
share my experience

My back ground;

I am a mechanical engineer and graduated from the university of
Peradeniya - Sri lanka
At present I am working for the National Engineering Research and
Development Centre of Sri Lanka as a research engineer.

My special interest area is development of domestic type wood burning and
specially wood gas stoves, development of wood chipping technology etc. Few
years ago I developed smokeless forced draft wood gas stove and recently
Natural draft one. As the preparation of suitble wood chips is important I
have a special interest for that. I am continuing my work in the
institution.

Dr. Ray Wijewardhana ( Ray ) helps me all the ways to continue my works and
he who put me to the Stoves list.

Regards,

D M Punchibanda ( Punchi )

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders@ILSTU.EDU>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] FW: Introducing new (?) STOVES membership candidate
... Punchibanda

> Dear D. M. (and Ray), (and to many others)
>
> WELCOME to the Stoves List Serve.
>
> I (and many others) hope that both of you (and Ray) will send us a message
> about your background, work, interests, resources, etc. Once we know
> your interests, etc, we can better appreciate your interactions with the
> whole list serve (and with some "off-list" discussions.)
>
> This message applies to all who seldom write on the Stoves List Serve, but
> are consistent readers.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Paul
>
> At 06:37 PM 3/13/04 +0600, Ray Wijewardene wrote:
> >Dear Tom, I respectfully submit - for inclusion in the STOVES list - the
> >name of Mr.D.M.Punchibanda of the Sri Lanka National Engineering Research
> >and Development (NERD?) Centre who is perhaps (nay, undoubtedly) Sri
Lanka's
> >most productive and innovative 'stoves' developer. His email address is
> ><bandara@nerdc.lk> and has most unfortunately been delayed for over two
> >years due to (I have been given to understand as) 'technical problems'.
All
> >those who attended the super 'stoves' conference organised by the Karve's
at
> >Pune will remember him and his excellent presentation there. I am only
very
> >VERY sorry that these same 'technical problems' precluded his
participation
> >at - and contribution to - the sequel in Seattle.
> >
> >May please request that the excellent report of the Seattle conference
(by
> >Ron Larson et-al) be sent to Punchibanda... as also Ron's - and
others's -
> >more recent dissertations relating thereto.
> >
> >Sincerely....
> >
> >Ray Wijewardene.
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

From visionarypants at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 17 07:29:00 2004
From: visionarypants at HOTMAIL.COM (Ryan Fowler)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Any suggestions?
Message-ID: <WED.17.MAR.2004.142900.0200.VISIONARYPANTS@HOTMAIL.COM>

Two questions:

1. Stoves burning wood, dung or crop residues are referred to as BIOMASS
stoves. Are there any equivalent terms in use that refer to stoves fuelled
by the likes of paraffin, benzine, methylated spirits, etc. The term
HYDROCARBON is not specific enough as that could also refer to coal, for
example. Any suggestions?

2. What would be left over in a biomass stove if combustion were to be
complete?

Regards,
Ryan.

_________________________________________________________________
Get news, sports, horoscopes and more on MSN Search! http://search.msn.co.za

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Wed Mar 17 10:22:36 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (tombreed@COMCAST.NET)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Any suggestions?
Message-ID: <WED.17.MAR.2004.152236.0000.>

Dear Ryan and All:

Good questions about terminology for liquid fuels stoves, biomass being (initially) a solid fuel stove. (Our WoodGas stoves are initially solid fuels, but the combustion is gas+air). Confusion about names often reflects a confusion about basic facts.

1) Liquid fueled stoves would be one category you are looking for, but it leaves out the question of fossil (hydrocarbon liquids, kerosene, gasoline, diesl...) fueled vs renewable (some alcohols, biodiesel) fueled. However, if we wait a few hudred years there won't be any liquid fossil fuels, so we don't need that distinction.

2) On a weight basis, coal is typically 7-9% hydrogen, the balance carbon. However, on a molecular basis coal is ~ CH (as opposed to ~(CH2)n with n > 5 for hydrocarbon liquids).

3) If wood combustion is complete there is typically < 1% ash. Most agricultural biomass is 4-10% and rice hulls are 20% high grade (then low grade) silica. Someday we'll probably use that silica. ..

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
> Two questions:
>
> 1. Stoves burning wood, dung or crop residues are referred to as BIOMASS
> stoves. Are there any equivalent terms in use that refer to stoves fuelled
> by the likes of paraffin, benzine, methylated spirits, etc. The term
> HYDROCARBON is not specific enough as that could also refer to coal, for
> example. Any suggestions?
>
> 2. What would be left over in a biomass stove if combustion were to be
> complete?
>
> Regards,
> Ryan.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get news, sports, horoscopes and more on MSN Search! http://search.msn.co.za

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Wed Mar 17 13:29:06 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (tombreed@COMCAST.NET)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Buffalo gourd
Message-ID: <WED.17.MAR.2004.182906.0000.>

Dear Richard:

I admire your development of retted, shredded biomass briquettes. Two questions...

1) How long does retting take for various materials?

2) Is drying a problem in some climates?

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
> Dear AD,
> Your recent message spoke of the difficulty briquetting biomass.
> It made me realise that our message about low-pressure wet process is
> still not out yet: One does do not need high pressure to briquette or
> even pelletise biomass fuel: You need only chop then ret the material
> and recombine it in plain stream or tap water. The fibers do the work
> of binding, if you get the timing and the blends right.
>
> The process rquires only the labor of 6 persons who produce fuel for
> fifty to seventy five families per day--at a cost of their daily wages
> plus perhaps as much as 10% (this will get you to within about 90%
> accuracy for estimating the viability of the process and product in the
> local fuel market).
>
> This daily effort on the basic hand press, produces up to 750 briquettes
> a day. Efficiency: we find that almost universally over say a tropical
> wet to dryland savanna and three continents the consumption rate is 2. 5
> per person per day(+/-0.5 briquette). This amounts to a consumption
> only about 300 grams of biomass per person per day. The international
> figure for wood fuel is 1.2Kg per person per day. This seemingly
> ludicrous comparison is explained by the hollow core which effectively
> makes the briquette an improved stove in itself: (viz., Insulated
> combustion chamber / mini chimney). The hole makes a big difference in
> the usual unimproved stove cooking environment. I therefore hesitate to
> be drawn into the argument of weight per energy output because of the
> efficiency of the burn in practice varies so much in the field.
>
> This energy input is orders of magnitude less than what Tom Reid's
> indicates about mechanised pelletising(at 100 hp per ton hour of
> product) and I suspect a fraction of the smaller ram or augur dry
> presses which operate at 13 Kw outputting, about 800 kg a day. This
> output is realised however only when the augurs are not being repaired,
> or one of the three phases of electricity is off, and all the dryers are
> all working. (I have searched far and wide for working plants in east
> and central africa and certain parts of Mexico and Latin America and
> have found most out of operation for the above reasons
>
> High pressure densification is hardly the only solution for briquetting
> especially in grid energy and unemployment-starved, dispursed market
> environments of the developing nations. It seem suited only to sepected
> urban environments mostly in the energy "rich" nations.
>
> We use the biomass in situ. Compared to the charring process, there is
> no energy wasted energy (however cleanly the gas may be flared off ).
> In many cases some dive into the technology because if a villager can do
> it, it must be simple right? Many as well have flopped and we have born
> the brunt of this many times on this wesbsite. If however, you go
> through the real steps and get the proper training, You discover what so
> many have: That it is viable conomic highly efficient and if you have
> done your basic market homework, income generating where income
> generation and meaningful job creation, is critical to development.
>
> Sure a charred product would by defnintion, have a higher carbon content
> and produce a hotter fuel per unit weight, but we have just as well,
> seen abundant examples of the use of the waste from charcoal making and
> distribution (up to 25% of the total charcoal produced) blended with
> fibrous ag residues in the wet process with some pretty astounding
> results which will equal and often outpreforrm carbonised pellets or
> solid core logs of equal volume and density. Stillit can be argued that
> in some environments the biomass resources are so abundant that why not
> char them to create a more dense fuel ? Our process as well requires
> water and sacrifices about half a liter per eash consummer served with
> the briquettes.
>
> The wet low pressure briquettingof biomass is in reality but another
> good choice: I would in sum, kindly offer it for your and other readers'
> inclusion in the list of possibilities.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Richard Stanley
>
>
>
> adkarve wrote:
>
> >I met somebody who tried using buffalo gourd as fuel
> >in a cookstove in a traditional Indian cookstove without
> >chimney. He reported that his kitchen was filled with bitter smell and even
> >the sorghum tortillas roasted on open fire tasted bitter.
> >A.D.Karve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Mar 17 10:06:16 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Blowpipe to increase energy
Message-ID: <WED.17.MAR.2004.203616.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Crispin,
Buring a stove partially underground is already being practised by us. Our
improved stoves are taller than the traditional ones because of the presence
of a grate and some space below the great for providing air to the grate. We
therefore dig a tunnel into the ground, underneath the grate for supplying
the burning biomass with air and also for removing the ash. Thus our present
stoves are half buried in the ground. But most of the stoves that I saw in
Seattle were at least twice as tall as our model, and therefore the burial
would be proportionately deeper. I have not given a thought to this problem,
because we are currently more occupied with charcoal and biogas.We have also
built stoves that are completely buried in the ground. In this case, they
were very large stoves meant for cooking meals for 250 to 500 people. In
such cases, the stoves are so tall, that lifting a hot and full pot from the
stove was dangerous. Therefore we build a platform into which the stove was
sunk, with the pothole at the same level as the top of the platform. The pot
could now be slid on or off the stove. The cook, standing on the platform,
could look into the pot. Formerly he needed a stool to stand upon in order
to look into the pot or to stir its contents. While the cook stands on the
platform, a helper sits on the ground level, where he can stoke the fire or
remove the ash.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispin@newdawn.sz>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Blowpipe to increase energy

> Dear Drs Prasad and Karve
>
> Prasad wrote:
> "I'm in wholehearted agreement with the opinion of Dr.Karve on the
> various methods suggested for providing secondary air. Stated plainly
> secondary air can be provided, in the situation that Karve finds himself
> in, only with the assistance of a chimney. But chimney requires careful
> attention. But the problems faciong the lady who collects fuel do not
> provide her with the wherewithalls to handle the chimney problems."
>
> And Karve wrote
> "...When the stove was ignited, the flue gases escaped with high
> velocity through the long pipe but sucked in additional air through the
> side holes by ventury effect. They do burn without smoke, but they are
> too tall for the Indian housewife, who sits down on the floor for the
> cooking. "
>
> This may seem simple and obvious, but how about building a stove to a
> height that works well in providing secondary air (in the case of the
> Vesto it is 445mm) and then lowering the stove into the ground in a
> small pit so that the working height, rather than the actual stove
> height suits the Indian cook? We can solve stove height issues by
> raising the cook or lowering the stove. It works with large bending
> brakes which sometimes have a lower jaw that extends 2 metres in to the
> ground.
>
> The stove pit can be sized to provide an element of preheating for the
> primary air allowing the stive to burn lower quality or damper fuels
> which would be an additional benefit.
>
> Is this a pit-iful stove solution?
>
> Regards
> Crispin

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Wed Mar 17 23:42:26 2004
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: [ethos] Partnership Meeting in Rome
Message-ID: <WED.17.MAR.2004.204226.0800.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

Dean,

Thank you very much for the report. It's good to see people making thing move.

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: Dean Still
To: STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG ; ethos@vrac.iastate.edu
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 8:54 AM
Subject: [ethos] Partnership Meeting in Rome

Dear Stovers,

I just returned from the Partnership in Clean Indoor Air three day meeting in Rome, a follow up to the Seattle conferences. The purpose of the meeting was to agree on protocols to study the relationship between health and exposure to wood smoke. Many people at the Seattle meetings wanted to know safe levels of exposure which would determine the interventions necessary to reduce human exposure. Is it enough to increase combustion efficiency or should all stoves have chimneys or hoods? What kind of stove will solve the problem of smoke hurting people cooking with biomass??

Unfortunately, talks by Nigel Bruce and others informed the Rome meeting that safe levels are currently unknown. What we do know is that levels of kitchen exposure are orders of magnitude above legal levels in industrialized countries. To get exposure down to legal limits interventions must remove very large percentages of the pollution.

Kirk Smith and Liz Bates introduced the relatively inexpensive (around $2,000, I think) machines they use to analyze Carbon Monoxide and particulates in houses. Liz Bates in her ITDG study uses a battery operated vacuum that is placed near the nose and mouth of the cook. After a day or more a filter is removed and weighed showing exposure to particulates. A recording CO monitor is placed at a certain distance from the fire.

Kirk has developed a system using HOBO CO data loggers and a modified smoke detector for particulates. The smoke detector has been tested in his lab and seems to work very well. Advantages of his approach seem to be that it is less expensive and easier to use. But Liz has had very few problems using the ITDG approach. Either approach seems workable although neither is dead easy. Research has to be done very carefully to get meaningful results.

The last morning Karen Westley from Shell Foundation re-directed the approach as she summarized what we had learned in two days of presentations and discussion. Doing epidemiological research is beyond the scope of our small partnership since it is complicated and costly. Finding out exactly how exposure affects health is very important, should be done, but is a governmental type of problem, like determining how bad smoking is. What we can do is to see how different interventions decrease exposure. This is a problem that our Partnership can address successfully. And we can continue while studying to bring good, better, best solutions to those in need.

Suggested research protocols will be forthcoming from the Partnership committee.

Generally, the meeting showed that the world is starting to pay attention to stoves through the exposure issue. UNDP, Winrock, WHO, USAID, GTZ, ITDG, WFP, Shell Foundation, EPA, ARECOP, many NGO's from Africa, Asia, Americas, etc. were in attendance. The Italian Ministry of the Environment hosted the meeting in a very fancy room with microphones for each speaker, waiters in white coats serving spectacular food. Karen Westley, Brenda Doroski, John Mitchell, Lisa Buttner have done an amazing job helping the stove community to collaborate on making stoves and studying how to improve interventions. I frequently thought that Tom Reed's hope of seeing a million stoves made is now likely to happen. Even a couple of years ago it seemed to be a dream. The Partnership is doing a great job. Stoves are again of international interest and one overhears funders talking about making 100,000 stoves, etc.

The ball seems to be rolling, folks.Thanks to the EPA, Winrock, Shell and the Partnership they created.

Best,

Dean

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Thu Mar 18 02:37:53 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin /Posix)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <THU.18.MAR.2004.093753.0200.CRISPIN@NEWDAWN.SZ>

Dear Harmon and Kobus

Expanded sheet metal is available in 3CR12 and other stainless types. You
could ask Stalcor or Trident Midrand Steel if they have or can get it. it is
available flattened or normal - twisted, sort of.

I visited a guy Pieter de Beer in Middleburg who isproducing several
charcoal braais and water heaters and he is using a fairly heavy gauge
flattened type as shelving.

Regards
Crispin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harmon Seaver" <hseaver@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Ceramic fiber

On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 12:07:57PM +0200, Kobus wrote:
(snip)
>
> I agree that punctures and tears are one of the biggest dangers affecting
> chamber lifetimes, but this product with the texture and feel of
polystyrene
> is proving to be remarkably durable. Steel liners rust/warp and clay
liners
> crack, what are their expected lifetimes and replacement costs?
>
Hopefully you are aware also of the health dangers associated with
thermoceramic fibers? While they are indeed excellent insulative and
refractory
materials, they have also been banned in some places due to the high cancer
risk, so wearing protective masks, gloves, and clothing when working with
thermoceramics is a must. I'd think this especially so when removing a worn
liner.
I don't know if "metal lath" is available in your area, but it makes a
good
protector for the insulation, at least from physical damage, although,
obviously, not from chemical damage. Metal lath is a thin steel sheet that
is
stamped or extruded in a press to make a base for plaster or stucco. It
lasted
over a year in my big stove where I was throwing large chunks of wood and
cut up
pallets into it. And it's cheap, at least here.

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

________________________________________________________________
$0 Bannerless Web Hosting, 10 POP and Web Email Accounts, & more
Get It Now At www.doteasy.com

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Mar 17 20:37:11 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: stove nomenclature
Message-ID: <THU.18.MAR.2004.070711.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

Dear Ryan,
1. The stoves using fuel not derived from biomass may be called non-biomass
stoves.
2. The residue is called ash
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Fowler <visionarypants@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 5:59 PM
Subject: [STOVES] Any suggestions?

> Two questions:
>
> 1. Stoves burning wood, dung or crop residues are referred to as BIOMASS
> stoves. Are there any equivalent terms in use that refer to stoves fuelled
> by the likes of paraffin, benzine, methylated spirits, etc. The term
> HYDROCARBON is not specific enough as that could also refer to coal, for
> example. Any suggestions?
>
> 2. What would be left over in a biomass stove if combustion were to be
> complete?
>
> Regards,
> Ryan.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get news, sports, horoscopes and more on MSN Search!
http://search.msn.co.za

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Thu Mar 18 16:52:22 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: The Oil We Eat
Message-ID: <THU.18.MAR.2004.155222.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

Here's a must read article from the Feb. issue of Harpers about energy,
agriculture, and even a bit about psuedo-estrogen.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/02/280191.shtml

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Thu Mar 18 09:26:17 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin /Posix)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Ceramic fiber
Message-ID: <THU.18.MAR.2004.162617.0200.CRISPIN@NEWDAWN.SZ>

Dear Kobus

Drilling problem:

Make a suitably sized cylinder of wood - an arbour - quite a bit longer than
the thing you are drilling. Mount the cylinder rigidly at one end so the
extending portion accomodates the ceramic sleeve.

Use a hole saw, not a drill bit. You can get very good ones these days.

Set the arbour under the drill press at the correct place. Put the ceramic
sleeve onto the wooden arbour and drill repeatedly into the same hole on the
wood. This will give you about as good an edge as you can get. The fibres
are supported right at the edge of the hole. In your case there are holes
near the top of the sleeve too, so you just slide the sleeve back on the
arbour and drill again. Don't move the arbour, only the sleeve.

Regards
Crispin

From tombreed at COMCAST.NET Fri Mar 19 07:13:33 2004
From: tombreed at COMCAST.NET (TBReed)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: [GASL] Heat and CO2 enrichement for Greenhouses
Message-ID: <FRI.19.MAR.2004.051333.0700.TOMBREED@COMCAST.NET>

Dear Joel and All:

Our WoodGas campstove is for sale at www.woodgasllc.com. However, the 3 kW
generated for camp cooking would get lost in a large greenhouse. You should
check it out, then scale it up.... We've made larger ones based on the same
principles (1) top lit updraft gasification (2) forced convection of the
secondary air for good clean mixing and combustion.

Yours truly, TOM REED
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Florian" <joel@EMSJOFLO.COM>
To: <GASIFICATION@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 12:25 PM
Subject: [GASL] Heat and CO2 enrichement for Greenhouses

> Dear Gasification friends,
>
> Tom Reed listed his handy little gasifier stove a few months back (Tom,
> could you give us that link again I lost it) and I've been wondering if
it
> would be appropriate for use inside a greenhouse -- for Carbon Dioxide
> enrichment. It would also provide a bit of heat.
>
> I'm thinking about running a greenhouse into the winter here in Alaska and
> I'm told that a tightly sealed greenhouse (to keep heat from excaping)
will
> soon run short on CO2 during the day.
>
> I'm wondering if the exhaust from Tom's stove would be suitable for plants
> to "breathe". I guess on a larger scale, I'd be interested in purifying
> the smoke from our thermal-gasifier boiler and venting some of that
inside
> our greenhouses -- either that or somehow "scrubbing" the CO2 from the
> exhaust stream and then releasing it into the greenhouse. I remember
> reading about a CO2 scrubber for increasing the energy density of biogas
> and remember thinking that it sounded complicated, expensive, and
> maintenance intensive -- but now I'm thinking that if the CO2 can be
> utilized, then the economics and labor might be worth it. Any thoughts?
>
> Someday maybe I can build unified systems as I envision: Woodchips and
> biomass waste producing heat, power, CO2 and nutrients for greenhouse
> growers.
>
> Joel Florian
> Alaska
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.622 / Virus Database: 400 - Release Date: 3/13/2004
>

From ronallarson at QWEST.NET Sat Mar 20 17:01:52 2004
From: ronallarson at QWEST.NET (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Petersberg Prize
Message-ID: <SAT.20.MAR.2004.150152.0700.RONALLARSON@QWEST.NET>

Stovers - Oops. I forgot to mention the deadline is March 26. Again, the address to send seems to be prize@dgfoundation.org

From ronallarson at QWEST.NET Sat Mar 20 17:03:35 2004
From: ronallarson at QWEST.NET (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Fw: Form difficulties
Message-ID: <SAT.20.MAR.2004.150335.0700.RONALLARSON@QWEST.NET>

Stovers:

1. This is to request your help.

2. I am asking that those of you who feel you have the background would be good enough to write a support letter for a nomination I have just completed on behalf of Tom Miles. This is for a 100,000 Euro prize called the Petersberg Prize. Letters should go to mailto:prize@dgfoundation.org

3. You can learn more about the prize and the rules at http://www.developmentgateway.org/node/790768/index There you will find this:

"The Petersberg Prize will recognize the most exemplary contribution in the field of Information and Communication Technologies (ICT) for development during the last ten years. The awardee will receive the ?100,000 Prize. Deadline for nominations is March 22, 2004.
Modern ICT is an increasingly important factor for development. The field is young, and the promise of using ICT has yet to be realized in most of the world.

With the Petersberg Prize, the Development Gateway is therefore seeking to help advance the understanding of ICT?s role in development and recognize leaders in the field.

The Prize is focused on impact on social and economic development. It will be awarded for a significant and successful contribution in the use of ICT for development ? one that will have benefited a large number of people. The degree of the success, the magnitude of the benefits, and the importance of the contribution to a development priority, such as poverty reduction, will all be taken into account when reviewing the nominations.

In addition to awarding the ?100,000 Prize, the Development Gateway will share nominees? stories on its global portal of development information and resources, in order to advance the understanding of their contribution and of ICT?s potential impact.

The Prize, sponsored by Deutsche Telekom AG and Microsoft Deutschland GmbH, will be awarded during the next annual Development Gateway Forum, which will take place in mid-2004."

4. My nomination on behalf of you all was accompanied by seconding letters from AD Karve, Elsen Karstad, and Rogerio Miranda - as we were striving for geographic coverage. Now, we are striving for any additional testimonials - which must emphasize the technical communications (ICT) aspects of what we do on "stoves".

5. I had some difficulty - thinking I had 700 words on four questions (the last was on how I knew Tom - so you can all add something there if you wish). I have sent them the longer version as well, but here is the short form (4000 character limit apparently) of what I submitted. Thanks in advance for anyone able to supply some additional reasons or some personal aspects to this nomination from us all:

Q1 Reasons?
A1. I am nominating Mr. Miles (Tom) for these reasons:

a. the high quality and commitment of Tom in single-handedly (using his own funds and donated time) creating the best extant web site and discussion group of improved third-world cook stoves.

b. the strength and vibrancy of the list itself. Tom started it, has nurtured it from the beginning, and is by far the most deserving of any award which emphasizes "information and communication technologies". While others of us emphasize stove design, stove improvements, stove materials, stove fuels and fuel improvements (and a few auxiliary topics that are always stove related - such as how to enlarge our sphere of influence), only Tom has taken on the huge ICT task. We have about 1800 hits per day in addition to the mailing list of about 300 persons.

c. importance to development. I feel stove improvements and dissemination is the most undervalued and under-appreciated area of all possible development activities world-wide. Stoves impact development efforts in numerous ways. Foremost on our list we emphasize the need to improve indoor air quality. Once the stove-health link is acknowledged, it is relatively easy to relate this to delaying development ?as the sick and dying are of course a major drain on local time and dollar resources. Tom?s work has huge humanitarian implications.

Q2. ? Benefits?

For the entire world - On our list, we often say that half the world or 3 Billion people are either in substantial part or wholly dependent on biomass for cooking. For reasons of global warming, resource depletion, national security and similar global issues, "stoves" list members believe that our stoves effort will eventually be of some impact to ALL six billion of the world?s citizens.

About 1 million direct improved stoves beneficiaries. The seconding letter from Dr. Karve talks about a program with a goal by the end of next year of about 100,000 improved stoves in the Maharashtra state alone. Easily doubled in the rest of India and more for all of Asia.

About 1000 regular listeners to "stoves".

About 100 serious stoves researchers and disseminators.

The ability to communicate on "stoves"must be one of the best possible numerical examples (worldwide) of the present and future potential of the combination of ICT and development.

Q3. - How accomplished?

a. Encourage grant writing. Without Tom?s structure, I doubt that the SF would have as good a start as they have - and SF might not have even started on stoves at all. (Most of the SF grantees are "stoves" list members). I do not claim that stoves progress would not have occurred - only that he has greatly speeded it up.

b. Making stoves work known to others. The National stoves program in India was almost totally cancelled a few years ago - for poor performance. Only the work of stoves list Father-Daughter stalwarts, Drs. A.D and Priya Karve, has been officially continued for support. I believe A.D. Karve received the famed 50,000 pound Ashden Award in 2002, in part because of Tom.

c. Exchanging information on both successes and failures: The other seconders I have contacted offer similar testimonials. After submitting this nomination I shall request additional comments from our "stoves" list members .

Thanks to all. Ron

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Sun Mar 21 17:32:04 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: FW: Introducing new (?) STOVES membership candidate ...
Punchibanda
In-Reply-To: <002d01c40c02$184bdf70$6801a8c0@pc4>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.MAR.2004.163204.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Dear Punchibandara

You wrote:
>Dear Paul and others
>(snip)
>My special interest area is development of domestic type wood burning and
>specially wood gas stoves, development of wood chipping technology etc. Few
>years ago I developed smokeless forced draft wood gas stove and recently
>Natural draft one. As the preparation of suitble wood chips is important I
>have a special interest for that. I am continuing my work in the
>institution.

I (and others) are anxious to hear about (and see, if you can provide
digital pictures to Tom Miles who will place them at the Internet site)
your work on what you name above:
1. small gasifier with forced draft
2. small gasifier with natural draft
3. SUITABLE wood chips (size is a crucial issue).

You will find that much is available via the "Stovers" (e-mail archives and
the Internet site) on those three topics. Best way to restart the
discussions is to post some info and we can discuss it.

One aspect of our stoves work (that varies from person to person) is the
person's position about free-access vs. protection (patents, secrets, etc),
especially regarding stoves issues intended to assist people who are very
poor. You comments on this would also be appreciated.

And any Sri Lanka information about stoves, fuels, NGOs, etc. would be
greatly appreciated also.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

From crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ Mon Mar 22 05:49:09 2004
From: crispin at NEWDAWN.SZ (Crispin /Posix)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: membership candidate ... Punchibanda
Message-ID: <MON.22.MAR.2004.124909.0200.CRISPIN@NEWDAWN.SZ>

Dear Paul

You wrote:
"One aspect of our stoves work (that varies from person to person) is the
person's position about free-access vs. protection (patents, secrets, etc),
especially regarding stoves issues intended to assist people who are very
poor. You comments on this would also be appreciated."

I think we had an interesting discussion on this topic some time ago -
couple of years - and I would like to remind people that a commercial attack
on the problem of getting stoves to the very poor may well involve a patent
or secret.

I have put a proposal to the Shell Foundation for funding the expansion of
the Vesto on a much larger scale. It was not approved (I didn't 'win').

I have now put it to another organization what takes equity positions in
energy companies (no loans) and one of the conditions of their involvement
is that there is some form of justiciable protection on the device or they
won't come in. I will try to provide it and they have agreed to finance us
(!).

I didn't predict this 2 years ago, I said it plainly. That is how it is
with commercial operations: they have to try to justify the investment in
the product and the costs of getting it known and adopted on a large enough
scale to make an impact on the target population, the environment and the
balance sheet. People won't work for free.

There are lots of creative ways to get stoves to very poor people which
could be adopted by the private sector. Artisanal production is, sooner or
later, 'private enterprise' but it is not large centralized private
enterprise, unless you admit that steel making (the raw material of some
parts) is exactly that (ref: my earlier post about what is a local
material).

The disinterested, rich country private sector, especially marketing people,
looking at the accomplishments of stove promoters around the world in the
last generation, would be justified to say that super-low cost, artisanal or
self-built fuel-efficient (or 'improved') stove promotion has been a dismal
failure, especially considering the potential number of stoves needed (about
600 million) and the number arguably constructed (perhaps 1 or 2 or 3
million?). Why?

I think there is lots of room to be unconventional, both in the devices and
in the ideas for promotion. One of the great changes required to achieve in
this field is a change in the morality of private businesses to be of
service while making a living and a modest profit, instead of trying to
squeeze the last available drop of blood from everyone's liver.

The best way to effect any change is of course to change oneself so I have
tried to 'go the commercial route' in the promotion of improved stoves. We
have targeted a large local market with a stove that should last at least
1000 days and costs the equivalent of 5 days wages for a labourer and saves
50% or more of the fuel now used. These are reasonable targets. As the
scale is so large (potential implementation) the tooling, factory space,
labour laws, distribution channels, training staff and redevelopment work
require certain levels of investment and income generation.

Someone with a pot of money wants to know that they will at least recoup the
investment before knock-off artists run the inventor and the business they
are financing off the market. I remind everyone that patents and even
copyrights expire to become public property. It is a temporary thing, this
protection business.

Will it work? Who knows? I don't think anyone has tried very hard before
but I am not sure.

What the heck...I am willing to give it a try. You only live once.

If it doesn't work it will be easy to go back to small scale subsidies,
handouts and give-aways and the promise of a future Nirvana.

Regards
Crispin

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Wed Mar 24 16:18:33 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Alternative ceramics was Re: UNfired bricks (on [ethos] list
serve
In-Reply-To: <031820041834.6666.42ac@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <WED.24.MAR.2004.151833.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Stovers and all,

At 06:34 PM 3/18/04 +0000, kgoyer@comcast.net wrote:
>Dear friends, My experience has been that unfired ceramics do not work. I
>call them desperation ceramics. Its not that I haven't tried.

Ken is an expert. PERHAPS someday there will be an unfired ceramic that
does work. But for the present, we might want to consider other alternatives.

My though is this:
What are the options of strong HIGH-MASS materials that are really rather
thin? That is, NOT a thick brick that steals the heat, but some 1 cm thin
(? or less?) ceramic that can either stand by itself (air is on the other
side) or could be placed with and supported by some back-up low-density
materials that are easy to make (or even mix and pour like a cement).

Whether for the combustion chamber of a Rocket stove or for the internal
parts of a Juntos gasifier (or for other stoves, also), the size of the
area with the high heat is rather small and would be able to be heated
quite quickly at start-up (or perhaps be "pre-heated") and from then on it
would not be stealing any heat.

Could be like a bottle shape, or in pieces-that-fit-together as is done
with the bricks in some models of the Rocket stove. If fit-together type,
they could be secured with a metal band or wire or have a base or neck that
keeps the pieces together.

Paul

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 25 16:20:28 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Native Americans might use our stoves
Message-ID: <THU.25.MAR.2004.152028.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Hi,

Ten days ago I sent out this message, or at least my Outbox says I
did. But unless I missed a message, there has not been a single
reply!!!!!!!!!! Not even a "good luck" or some other comment!!!

Did anyone get it, and does anybody have anything to say about this?

Paul
************************* Repeated message is below **********************

Stovers and Gene,

Gene's publications repeatedly mentioned work done in the 1980s and early
1990s about stoves and the Navajo Indians. Certainly relevant for some
other Native Americans, I would assume.

The issues are the same: Indoor Air Pollution, heating in winter, wood and
coal burning, poor stoves, not much money (in America, that is pathetic),
desire to preserve traditional life styles, etc.

Do any Stovers have experience with this situation today of the Navajo and
others?

CERTAINLY we Stovers should get involved with the needs of these people, if
for no other reason than to be a testing ground for all that we claim to be
able to do (or are trying to do).

Anyone know the "access routes" to being able to organize some "stoves
work" at appropriate places? Remember, we want to do it "their way." And
we will clearly need to have some "local representation" of
Stovers. Anyone live near the Navajo Nation or other groups?

I think that this topic is important enough that we (as a Stoves group)
should seek to be organized about it, and not just see who (person or
entity) can talk (or write the proposal) best or fastest so that one type
of stove gets all the attention.

Please remember that a complete stoves project must consider all of the 4
fundamental components:

Fuel Source of energy
Combustion Obtaining of energy
Heat utilization Capture of energy
Human factors Socio-economic-environmental-culinary-etc aspects of energy

So, my thanks to Gene for having awakened this topic. Now let's see if
something can be done.

*********** To get some action going: ********************

1. I, Paul Anderson, will volunteer to go to an appropriate place
(probably) in the American Southwest during the months from May to October
2004 for at least a few days of serious work (perhaps a week, if
needed). (This summer I will be as far west as Denver and Salt Lake City
at least twice (in early July and late September), and I would extend
either of my trips.)

2. I will provide the best I can relating to the residential-sized
gasifiers, including some materials, hands on labor, provision of
seminar/discussion information, and related things to be determined,
possibly including haybox/hotbag/retained-heat cooking.

3. I will undertake to organize (or assist others to organize) the
provision of modest funding via Rotary Clubs with which I have or can
obtain contact. The amount will be a minimum of $2000, and not likely to
exceed $10,000 from the Rotary Clubs. That money will ONLY be used for the
DIRECT BENEFIT of the Native Americans regarding the issues of residential
stoves. (No travel money for volunteers, etc.)

4. Assuming that some others will be stepping forward to assist, I
volunteer to be on an ad hoc committee of Stovers who will try to move this
issue forward. Our focus will be on what can be sustainable and
appropriate, not on some "purchased solution" to be dropped off at the
doorstep. The focus will NOT be for "academic and research objectives,"
although we expect to learn things by doing this.

*********************
Paul

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 25 16:35:53 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Alternative ceramics and heat transfer
In-Reply-To: <BCF3DA9BBA19D611A72B00508BD902F60115400F@colmx01.sealimite
d.local>
Message-ID: <THU.25.MAR.2004.153553.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Dale,

THANKS. You have greatly assisted!!!!!!!!!

One additional comment: When the thin-walled ceramic has air behind it, we
can (and I recommend it) place another wall or even 2 walls around it and
recycle that heated air for any of the following purposes:
1. preheated primary air
2. preheated secondary air
3. room heating (space heating) in cold climates (CLEAN warm air is desirable)
4. heat for fruit drying
5. some other use of the heat.

Now the question is: What sort(s) of material(s) could be used to
accomplish this? And would it be possible in the Developing Societies
(meaning local village small industry)?? Basically we are trying to
"replace" the metal in the hottest part of the stove.

Paul

At 03:51 PM 3/25/04 -0500, Andreatta, Dale A. wrote:
>I should comment on Paul's suggestions from a heat transfer perspective.
>
>I ran some numbers with my heat transfer analysis codes (as described at the
>2004 ETHOS meeting) using reasonable numbers for the material properties and
>wall thicknesses. The results were that for the thin-walled chamber exposed
>to air, the wall heats up quickly, the exterior heats up to a high
>temperature and a lot of heat is lost to the environment. About 8.4 MJ in a
>1-hour cooking event for a rocket-size stove. This would be similar to that
>for a single-wall uninsulated metal stove.
>
>If however you surround the thin wall with a loose insulation as Paul
>describes, the heat loss drops to about 1.5 MJ, only a little greater than
>for the best low-density ceramics made into bricks. Interestingly, the
>loose insulation (loose vermiculite or wood ash) is much better than
>light-weight fired ceramics in both density and thermal conductivity.
>
>Dale Andreatta
>
>
>Ken is an expert. PERHAPS someday there will be an unfired ceramic that
>does work. But for the present, we might want to consider other
>alternatives.
>
>My though is this:
>What are the options of strong HIGH-MASS materials that are really rather
>thin? That is, NOT a thick brick that steals the heat, but some 1 cm thin
>(? or less?) ceramic that can either stand by itself (air is on the other
>side) or could be placed with and supported by some back-up low-density
>materials that are easy to make (or even mix and pour like a cement).
>
>Whether for the combustion chamber of a Rocket stove or for the internal
>parts of a Juntos gasifier (or for other stoves, also), the size of the
>area with the high heat is rather small and would be able to be heated
>quite quickly at start-up (or perhaps be "pre-heated") and from then on it
>would not be stealing any heat.
>
>Could be like a bottle shape, or in pieces-that-fit-together as is done
>with the bricks in some models of the Rocket stove. If fit-together type,
>they could be secured with a metal band or wire or have a base or neck that
>keeps the pieces together.
>
>Paul
>
>Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
>Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
>Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
>Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
>E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
>---
>To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with
>this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
>---

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 25 19:37:55 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Rootfuels - summary
Message-ID: <THU.25.MAR.2004.183755.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

It seems that this message did not make it to the Stoves system
either. Must have been a bad day. I will also resend the third message
about "seedfuels."
Paul
******************************************
Stovers and Gene Shultz,

I have almost finished reading what Gene sent to me in photocopy form.

Concerning ONLY the issue of Rootfuels, I found the information to be
extremely interesting and of potential interest to several of us. On the
other hand, the topic is probably not something to be a major item for
discussion on the Stover list serve (but we certainly are able to stray
"off course" in many ways).

Here are my observations:

1. Bio fuels are of interest to us, but not so much for the growing as for
the burning. Gene's work clearly shows how the roots of the Buffalo Gourd
can compete with wood as a quality fuel, especially because it can grow
better in semi-arid areas and sandy soils than can trees and woody
plants. So, if you are into the growing of a great fuel in semi-arid
areas, you should contact Gene (an authority) or me (but I am just a
"reader") to get copies of the key articles he provides. He has
publications with international examples about acceptance, other varieties
of these plants, etc.

[ I need to ask Gene if the plants would do well in the sandy areas around
Havana, Illinois, or what that be too wet for them?? ]

2. There is a separate biofuels list serve and website, I
believe. Perhaps other people at that site are continuing with this. And
there was (is?) major research on the Buffalo Gourd by some university work
in Arizona. Gene's work was extremely good, but mainly stopped in the mid
1990s when he retired. What has happened in the past 8 years could be of
interest. But the big issue is: can the gourds and their roots be grown
and harvested in circumstances that will lead to sustainable fuels, whether
in USA or anywhere? THEN the stovers can become very
interested. Well, even now, the "Trees, Water and People" NGO and
others with "reduce the deforestation" interests might want to get involved
now.

3. TWO groups should have special interest in these specific
rootfuels. Rocket stoves like nice "sticks" of fuel, and the roots, when
dried, will fit that criteria. Aprovecho was mentioned several times in
the photocopies and knows about the rootfuels. The second group are the
"gasifier" people. Because the roots, when fresh, can be easily cut like
carrots, and then dried to rock-hard low-moisture "chunks" of fuel, the
roots are easier to work with than sticks and branches and logs. (Hence,
my continuing interest, and I will be meeting with Gene in the coming months.)

Note that I have separated out two other topics (seedfuels, and American
Indians) for messages to follow very soon.

If you reply, be sure that Gene's address is included (I am not sure that
he is on the Stoves list serve yet.)

Paul

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Thu Mar 25 19:39:32 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:00 2004
Subject: Seedfuels, especially for lighting top-lit fires
Message-ID: <THU.25.MAR.2004.183932.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Stovers, this is the third of the 3 messages that somehow were not sent
(although my computer says that they were).
Paul
***********************************************

Dear Stovers and Gene,

Gene's photocopies had a wonderful item about seedfuels. "Oilseeds as
Lighting and Cooking Fuel for Developing Nations", 1984. I have noted the
Table 1 about "Results of ignition tests on ground and pelletized oilseeds"
and I expect to test some of them. For example:

Slowest on Table: Orange seeds have the slowest ignition time but send
average flame heights of 2.5 inches.

Fastest on Table: Coconut kernel (not the hull) ignites in 3 seconds,
with height of 3 inches.

Sunflower (table does not say if processed other than being broken open)
ignites in 35 seconds with 3 inch flames. (I will be checking on
sunflower oil.)

Both are nicely "tropical" for the developing countries to utilize.

For use as "starter fuels" (one match sets the blaze), I still need to do
some testing. Perhaps a small piece of paper under the coconut kernel
would do the trick.

Concerning the comments on castor bean and Jatropha bean, I will NOT be
working with the basic plant because of the extreme toxic risk of the
unprocessed beans. If the local people have access to the NON-toxic
liquids, then those could be considered.

Mixing of starter volatiles is also a possibility. Even thought kerosene
is a fossil fuel, a VERY small amount might make a wonderful mix with some
bio-oil.

Plus, Tom Reed indicated that he has some "new" material to tell us about
as "starter".

If you know of someone (such as an Aprovecho intern??? or an undergraduate
student, or yourself) who might be interested in "finalizing" about
"starter materials for top-lit stoves -- and other stoves, please help me
be in contact with that person(s).

Thanks to the Stoves list serve for helping get us this far. I will
present any future results via the Stoves list serve.

Paul

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Thu Mar 25 20:12:50 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Rootfuels - summary
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040325183629.024444c0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.25.MAR.2004.211250.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

Paul,
I too am almost finished reading the wealth of material Gene sent me. I
immediately saw possibilities here especially in what is called Altiplano or
high and DRY planes.

The information I have was not clear on performance at higher altitudes. We
have good reason to try them out here and I would like to access some seeds
to bring back with me when I return from the states in mid April. The fact
that we can grow fuel, make cooking oil, have forage, and make soap and
shampoo it really interesting, filling many of the needs identified by
indigenous peoples here.
Any sources of seeds and related advice along these lines out there?
David

in a previous message, Paul S. Anderson on 3/25/04 20:37 at
psanders@ILSTU.EDU wrote:

> It seems that this message did not make it to the Stoves system
> either. Must have been a bad day. I will also resend the third message
> about "seedfuels."
> Paul
> ******************************************
> Stovers and Gene Shultz,
>
> I have almost finished reading what Gene sent to me in photocopy form.
>
> Concerning ONLY the issue of Rootfuels, I found the information to be
> extremely interesting and of potential interest to several of us. On the
> other hand, the topic is probably not something to be a major item for
> discussion on the Stover list serve (but we certainly are able to stray
> "off course" in many ways).
>
> Here are my observations:
>
> 1. Bio fuels are of interest to us, but not so much for the growing as for
> the burning. Gene's work clearly shows how the roots of the Buffalo Gourd
> can compete with wood as a quality fuel, especially because it can grow
> better in semi-arid areas and sandy soils than can trees and woody
> plants. So, if you are into the growing of a great fuel in semi-arid
> areas, you should contact Gene (an authority) or me (but I am just a
> "reader") to get copies of the key articles he provides. He has
> publications with international examples about acceptance, other varieties
> of these plants, etc.
>
> [ I need to ask Gene if the plants would do well in the sandy areas around
> Havana, Illinois, or what that be too wet for them?? ]
>
> 2. There is a separate biofuels list serve and website, I
> believe. Perhaps other people at that site are continuing with this. And
> there was (is?) major research on the Buffalo Gourd by some university work
> in Arizona. Gene's work was extremely good, but mainly stopped in the mid
> 1990s when he retired. What has happened in the past 8 years could be of
> interest. But the big issue is: can the gourds and their roots be grown
> and harvested in circumstances that will lead to sustainable fuels, whether
> in USA or anywhere? THEN the stovers can become very
> interested. Well, even now, the "Trees, Water and People" NGO and
> others with "reduce the deforestation" interests might want to get involved
> now.
>
> 3. TWO groups should have special interest in these specific
> rootfuels. Rocket stoves like nice "sticks" of fuel, and the roots, when
> dried, will fit that criteria. Aprovecho was mentioned several times in
> the photocopies and knows about the rootfuels. The second group are the
> "gasifier" people. Because the roots, when fresh, can be easily cut like
> carrots, and then dried to rock-hard low-moisture "chunks" of fuel, the
> roots are easier to work with than sticks and branches and logs. (Hence,
> my continuing interest, and I will be meeting with Gene in the coming months.)
>
> Note that I have separated out two other topics (seedfuels, and American
> Indians) for messages to follow very soon.
>
> If you reply, be sure that Gene's address is included (I am not sure that
> he is on the Stoves list serve yet.)
>
> Paul
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>

--
"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual
beings having a human experience." Teilhard de Chardan

David Whitfield
Director
CEDESOL
P.O. Box 4723
La Paz Bolivia South America
591-2-2414882 office 591 715 16356 cellular

solar1@zuper.net
aguaviva@zuper.net
dewv@yahoo.com
http://www.solarcooking.org/media/broadcast/whitfield/bio-whitfield.htm

http://www.thehungersite.com

From aes at BITSTREAM.NET Thu Mar 25 18:28:06 2004
From: aes at BITSTREAM.NET (AES)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Alternative ceramics and heat transfer
Message-ID: <THU.25.MAR.2004.172806.0600.AES@BITSTREAM.NET>

Dale y todos,

Could the thin walled material be made of clay and fired in itself? I know
that this was not an option with the insulated brick as it did not fire
through to the outside but if the wall was thinner? What was the thickness
you chose Dale and do any ceramicists have any comment on the ability to
fire the liner by burning wood in the combustion chamber?

It seems to me that the instructions on the Rocket stove when it was made
with metal used to say that a good idea was to put a layer of clay material
over the metal elbow so that when it burned out there would still be an
elbow. Was there a problem with this scenario? For example, strength of the
elbow post burn out?

Lets keep trying and experimenting. Getting something that does not have to
be fired would be a great leap.

Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreatta, Dale A." <dandreatta@sealimited.com>
To: "'Paul S. Anderson'" <psanders@ilstu.edu>; <kgoyer@comcast.net>;
<dstill@epud.net>; <sTOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Cc: "AES" <aes@bitstream.net>; "peter scott" <apropeter@earthlink.net>;
"Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar" <solar1@zuper.net>;
<ethos@vrac.iastate.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: Alternative ceramics and heat transfer

> I should comment on Paul's suggestions from a heat transfer perspective.
>
> I ran some numbers with my heat transfer analysis codes (as described at
the
> 2004 ETHOS meeting) using reasonable numbers for the material properties
and
> wall thicknesses. The results were that for the thin-walled chamber
exposed
> to air, the wall heats up quickly, the exterior heats up to a high
> temperature and a lot of heat is lost to the environment. About 8.4 MJ in
a
> 1-hour cooking event for a rocket-size stove. This would be similar to
that
> for a single-wall uninsulated metal stove.
>
> If however you surround the thin wall with a loose insulation as Paul
> describes, the heat loss drops to about 1.5 MJ, only a little greater than
> for the best low-density ceramics made into bricks. Interestingly, the
> loose insulation (loose vermiculite or wood ash) is much better than
> light-weight fired ceramics in both density and thermal conductivity.
>
> Dale Andreatta
>
>
> Ken is an expert. PERHAPS someday there will be an unfired ceramic that
> does work. But for the present, we might want to consider other
> alternatives.
>
> My though is this:
> What are the options of strong HIGH-MASS materials that are really rather
> thin? That is, NOT a thick brick that steals the heat, but some 1 cm thin
> (? or less?) ceramic that can either stand by itself (air is on the other
> side) or could be placed with and supported by some back-up low-density
> materials that are easy to make (or even mix and pour like a cement).
>
> Whether for the combustion chamber of a Rocket stove or for the internal
> parts of a Juntos gasifier (or for other stoves, also), the size of the
> area with the high heat is rather small and would be able to be heated
> quite quickly at start-up (or perhaps be "pre-heated") and from then on it
> would not be stealing any heat.
>
> Could be like a bottle shape, or in pieces-that-fit-together as is done
> with the bricks in some models of the Rocket stove. If fit-together type,
> they could be secured with a metal band or wire or have a base or neck
that
> keeps the pieces together.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>
>
> ---
> To unsubscribe, send email to majormail@vrac.iastate.edu with
> this as the first line in the BODY of the message: unsubscribe ethos
> ---

From ronallarson at QWEST.NET Fri Mar 26 00:54:34 2004
From: ronallarson at QWEST.NET (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Form difficulties
Message-ID: <THU.25.MAR.2004.225434.0700.RONALLARSON@QWEST.NET>

Stovers

This is a reminder. Tomorrow is the last day for sending a letter of support for our list nomination of Tom Miles to receive the Petersberg Prize. If able and so-motivated - just send a short e-mail to prize@dgfoundation.org

Emphasis should be on ICT and Development.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Larson
To: STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 3:03 PM
Subject: Fw: Form difficulties

Stovers:

3. You can learn more about the prize and the rules at http://www.developmentgateway.org/node/790768/index There you will find this:

With the Petersberg Prize, the Development Gateway is therefore seeking to help advance the understanding of ICT?s role in development and recognize leaders in the field.

<snip>

From cree at DOWCO.COM Fri Mar 26 10:24:41 2004
From: cree at DOWCO.COM (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Native Americans might use our stoves
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040325150850.02436820@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.MAR.2004.072441.0800.CREE@DOWCO.COM>

Paul, in response to your message re the Navajo, et al.
I am working with Native people in North America, and in South America.
Actually, I am a Status Indian, from Peguis 1st Nation, Manitoba, Canada.
My Mum lived on the reserve, and although she had an abundance of firewood,
never used it..
She couldn't lift the chunks up to place in the fire, as they were wet and
heavy.
This spurred my interest, and now my passion, to manufacture, and market,
the best solid fuel available.
Parameters being, has to be lightweight, inexpensive, and able to utilize
the abundant dry sawdust/biomass.
Creating sustainable employment in mini factories on Indian reservations
across North America, producing and marketing, solid smokeless fuel,
is going to be my Company's legacy.
regards
John Olsen
ww.heatloginc.com

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Fri Mar 26 18:07:56 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Rootfuels - summary
In-Reply-To: <BC88FBD2.2D25%solar1@zuper.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.MAR.2004.170756.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

David,

When and where will you be in the USA? Chances are you might be able to
meet a stover somewhere!! I am in central Illinois, but am mobile at
times. Would like to meet you. And others might also. Send us your
itinerary, please.

Paul

At 09:12 PM 3/25/04 -0400, Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia
Solar wrote:
>Paul,
> I too am almost finished reading the wealth of material Gene sent me. I
>immediately saw possibilities here especially in what is called Altiplano or
>high and DRY planes.
>
>The information I have was not clear on performance at higher altitudes. We
>have good reason to try them out here and I would like to access some seeds
>to bring back with me when I return from the states in mid April. The fact
>that we can grow fuel, make cooking oil, have forage, and make soap and
>shampoo it really interesting, filling many of the needs identified by
>indigenous peoples here.
>Any sources of seeds and related advice along these lines out there?
>David
>
>in a previous message, Paul S. Anderson on 3/25/04 20:37 at
>psanders@ILSTU.EDU wrote:
>
> > It seems that this message did not make it to the Stoves system
> > either. Must have been a bad day. I will also resend the third message
> > about "seedfuels."
> > Paul
> > ******************************************
> > Stovers and Gene Shultz,
> >
> > I have almost finished reading what Gene sent to me in photocopy form.
> >
> > Concerning ONLY the issue of Rootfuels, I found the information to be
> > extremely interesting and of potential interest to several of us. On the
> > other hand, the topic is probably not something to be a major item for
> > discussion on the Stover list serve (but we certainly are able to stray
> > "off course" in many ways).
> >
> > Here are my observations:
> >
> > 1. Bio fuels are of interest to us, but not so much for the growing as for
> > the burning. Gene's work clearly shows how the roots of the Buffalo Gourd
> > can compete with wood as a quality fuel, especially because it can grow
> > better in semi-arid areas and sandy soils than can trees and woody
> > plants. So, if you are into the growing of a great fuel in semi-arid
> > areas, you should contact Gene (an authority) or me (but I am just a
> > "reader") to get copies of the key articles he provides. He has
> > publications with international examples about acceptance, other varieties
> > of these plants, etc.
> >
> > [ I need to ask Gene if the plants would do well in the sandy areas around
> > Havana, Illinois, or what that be too wet for them?? ]
> >
> > 2. There is a separate biofuels list serve and website, I
> > believe. Perhaps other people at that site are continuing with this. And
> > there was (is?) major research on the Buffalo Gourd by some university work
> > in Arizona. Gene's work was extremely good, but mainly stopped in the mid
> > 1990s when he retired. What has happened in the past 8 years could be of
> > interest. But the big issue is: can the gourds and their roots be grown
> > and harvested in circumstances that will lead to sustainable fuels, whether
> > in USA or anywhere? THEN the stovers can become very
> > interested. Well, even now, the "Trees, Water and People" NGO and
> > others with "reduce the deforestation" interests might want to get involved
> > now.
> >
> > 3. TWO groups should have special interest in these specific
> > rootfuels. Rocket stoves like nice "sticks" of fuel, and the roots, when
> > dried, will fit that criteria. Aprovecho was mentioned several times in
> > the photocopies and knows about the rootfuels. The second group are the
> > "gasifier" people. Because the roots, when fresh, can be easily cut like
> > carrots, and then dried to rock-hard low-moisture "chunks" of fuel, the
> > roots are easier to work with than sticks and branches and logs. (Hence,
> > my continuing interest, and I will be meeting with Gene in the coming
> months.)
> >
> > Note that I have separated out two other topics (seedfuels, and American
> > Indians) for messages to follow very soon.
> >
> > If you reply, be sure that Gene's address is included (I am not sure that
> > he is on the Stoves list serve yet.)
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> > Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> >
>
>--
>"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual
>beings having a human experience." Teilhard de Chardan
>
>David Whitfield
>Director
>CEDESOL
>P.O. Box 4723
>La Paz Bolivia South America
>591-2-2414882 office 591 715 16356 cellular
>
>solar1@zuper.net
>aguaviva@zuper.net
>dewv@yahoo.com
>http://www.solarcooking.org/media/broadcast/whitfield/bio-whitfield.htm
>
>http://www.thehungersite.com
>

From solar1 at ZUPER.NET Fri Mar 26 18:43:19 2004
From: solar1 at ZUPER.NET (Fundacion Centro para el Desarrollo con Energia Solar)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Rootfuels - summary
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040326170637.00d3ecb0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.MAR.2004.194319.0400.SOLAR1@ZUPER.NET>

in a previous message, Paul S. Anderson on 3/26/04 19:07 at
psanders@ILSTU.EDU wrote:

> David,
>
> When and where will you be in the USA? Chances are you might be able to
> meet a stover somewhere!! I am in central Illinois, but am mobile at
> times. Would like to meet you. And others might also. Send us your
> itinerary, please.
>
> Paul
Hi Paul,
I'm open to meet with any of the stovers possible and especially you. The
bulk of this trip is being sponsored by Solar Household Energy (surely you
remember Barbara Kudson and Dar Curtis at ETHOS) and I will be with them in
Chevy Chase MD from the 29th until April 1 more or less. Then I'm working
my way south by thumb or bus. I will be in Fredricksburg VA a couple of
days (visiting a daughter), Blacksburg VA a few days ( where another
daughter at Vtech is due to give me another grandson about then), possible
Charolet NC for a couple of days and then Jax Fla to see my parents before
returning to Bolivia on the 16th of April.

Dar and his team are scheduling meetings with and for me if you want to
contact him directly at darwincurtis@comcast.net. One of our mutual goals
involves the use of integrated cooking systems and developing standardized
evaluation techniques so maybe information from around the world can be
understood and quantified as apples to apples.

I am willing to travel about anywhere during the time period mentioned but
am constrained by finances.

Hope we get a chance to met up during this period.
Abrazos
David
--
I don't mind the rat race, but I could do with a little more cheese.

David Whitfield
Director
CEDESOL
P.O. Box 4723
La Paz Bolivia South America
591-2-2414882 office 591 715 16356 cellular

solar1@zuper.net
aguaviva@zuper.net
dewv@yahoo.com

http://www.solarcooking.org/media/broadcast/whitfield/bio-whitfield.htm
http://www.ezinfocenter.com/7476035/WYK
http://www.quickinfo247.com/86196/FCS
http://www.thehungersite.com

From psanders at ILSTU.EDU Fri Mar 26 20:27:38 2004
From: psanders at ILSTU.EDU (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
Message-ID: <FRI.26.MAR.2004.192738.0600.PSANDERS@ILSTU.EDU>

Stovers and ETHOS folk,

I am seeking some way to maintain in my combustion area (of the small
gasifier) the "spark" without having a spark maker. Said differently, I am
producing volumes of tar-y gases in my small "pyrolysizer" (not the purist
definition of gasification) and in a close-coupled way I can burn them in
the combustor area. Great heat, but sometimes the ignition can be
lost. It will re-light immediately with a single match, but I do not want
to have that bother. What are the alternatives for keeping something hot
enough to keep re-igniting the dense hot gases?

Is the term "glow-plug" the generic name for these things? Lead me to the
details, please.

Thanks,

From hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM Fri Mar 26 21:15:06 2004
From: hseaver at CYBERSHAMANIX.COM (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040326192439.024426d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.MAR.2004.201506.0600.HSEAVER@CYBERSHAMANIX.COM>

The problem with glow plugs is they either need a battery or a lot of
compression to keep them glowing.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2004 at 07:27:38PM -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
> Stovers and ETHOS folk,
>
> I am seeking some way to maintain in my combustion area (of the small
> gasifier) the "spark" without having a spark maker. Said differently, I am
> producing volumes of tar-y gases in my small "pyrolysizer" (not the purist
> definition of gasification) and in a close-coupled way I can burn them in
> the combustor area. Great heat, but sometimes the ignition can be
> lost. It will re-light immediately with a single match, but I do not want
> to have that bother. What are the alternatives for keeping something hot
> enough to keep re-igniting the dense hot gases?
>
> Is the term "glow-plug" the generic name for these things? Lead me to the
> details, please.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D., Fulbright Prof. to Mozambique 8/99 - 7/00
> Rotary University Teacher Grantee to Mozambique >10 mo of 2001-2003
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders@ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders

--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

From tmiles at TRMILES.COM Sun Mar 28 13:18:09 2004
From: tmiles at TRMILES.COM (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Is the List Down?
Message-ID: <SUN.28.MAR.2004.101809.0800.TMILES@TRMILES.COM>

All,

This is just a test message to make sure the list is operating properly. Some of you have commented that you have not received mail. The last messages on the Stoves archive were posted Friday March 26.

http://listserv.repp.org/archives/stoves.html

Discussion has been comparatively slow this week while debates are running on the Gasification list.

If you have received this message then the list is running properly.

Kind regards,

Tom

From elk at WANANCHI.COM Mon Mar 29 03:25:43 2004
From: elk at WANANCHI.COM (Elsen Karstad)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Test mssg
Message-ID: <MON.29.MAR.2004.112543.0300.ELK@WANANCHI.COM>

Testing........

Tom, your mssg copied directly to me was not rec'd via the 'stoves list'
server.

I think there's something wrong!

Let's see if I get this one.

rgds;
elk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com>
To: "elk" <elk@wananchi.com>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 9:27 AM
Subject: Fw: STOVES Digest - 26 Mar 2004 to 28 Mar 2004 (#2004-78)

> Elsen,
>
> This was the only message today.
>
> Tom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Automatic digest processor" <LISTSERV@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> To: "Recipients of STOVES digests" <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 9:04 PM
> Subject: STOVES Digest - 26 Mar 2004 to 28 Mar 2004 (#2004-78)
>
>
> > There is one message totalling 27 lines in this issue.
> >
> > Topics of the day:
> >
> > 1. Is the List Down?
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:18:09 -0800
> > From: Tom Miles <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>
> > Subject: Is the List Down?
> >
> > All,
> >
> > This is just a test message to make sure the list is operating properly.
=
> > Some of you have commented that you have not received mail. The last =
> > messages on the Stoves archive were posted Friday March 26.
> >
> > http://listserv.repp.org/archives/stoves.html
> >
> >
> > Discussion has been comparatively slow this week while debates are =
> > running on the Gasification list.=20
> >
> > If you have received this message then the list is running properly.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of STOVES Digest - 26 Mar 2004 to 28 Mar 2004 (#2004-78)
> > ************************************************************
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

From ronallarson at QWEST.NET Mon Mar 29 09:36:22 2004
From: ronallarson at QWEST.NET (Ron Larson)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Test mssg
Message-ID: <MON.29.MAR.2004.073622.0700.RONALLARSON@QWEST.NET>

Tom and Elsen -

I am confused. I no longer get stoves-digest. But I did get both Tom's
and Elsen's messages given below (seemingly via "stoves" - not direct). I
am sending this to both you and to "stoves" as a test - you two should get
two. I don't think others need reply.

My last message from "stoves" besides those below was from Harmon Seaver
on the 26th (Friday) at 7:15 PM entitled "Re: Maintaining the ignition of
hot gases". If anyone else sent or received one after that, I hope they will
let Tom know.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Elsen Karstad <elk@WANANCHI.COM>
To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:25 AM
Subject: Test mssg

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender: The Stoves Discussion List <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Poster: Elsen Karstad <elk@WANANCHI.COM>
> Subject: Test mssg
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Testing........
>
> Tom, your mssg copied directly to me was not rec'd via the 'stoves list'
> server.
>
> I think there's something wrong!
>
> Let's see if I get this one.
>
> rgds;
> elk
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles@trmiles.com>
> To: "elk" <elk@wananchi.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 9:27 AM
> Subject: Fw: STOVES Digest - 26 Mar 2004 to 28 Mar 2004 (#2004-78)
>
>
> > Elsen,
> >
> > This was the only message today.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Automatic digest processor" <LISTSERV@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > To: "Recipients of STOVES digests" <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 9:04 PM
> > Subject: STOVES Digest - 26 Mar 2004 to 28 Mar 2004 (#2004-78)
> >
> >
> > > There is one message totalling 27 lines in this issue.
> > >
> > > Topics of the day:
> > >
> > > 1. Is the List Down?
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 10:18:09 -0800
> > > From: Tom Miles <tmiles@TRMILES.COM>
> > > Subject: Is the List Down?
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > This is just a test message to make sure the list is operating
properly.
> =
> > > Some of you have commented that you have not received mail. The last =
> > > messages on the Stoves archive were posted Friday March 26.
> > >
> > > http://listserv.repp.org/archives/stoves.html
> > >
> > >
> > > Discussion has been comparatively slow this week while debates are =
> > > running on the Gasification list.=20
> > >
> > > If you have received this message then the list is running properly.
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > End of STOVES Digest - 26 Mar 2004 to 28 Mar 2004 (#2004-78)
> > > ************************************************************
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

From cree at DOWCO.COM Tue Mar 30 10:10:00 2004
From: cree at DOWCO.COM (John Olsen)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: 3 Interesting web pages on Carbon
Message-ID: <TUE.30.MAR.2004.071000.0800.CREE@DOWCO.COM>

www.carbonexpo.com
http://www.carbonfinance.org
http://www.prototypecarbonfund.org
regards
John Olsen
Heatlog Industries, Canada

From andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM Tue Mar 30 16:00:20 2004
From: andrew.heggie at DTN.NTL.COM (Andrew Heggie)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040326192439.024426d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.MAR.2004.220020.0100.>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:27:38 -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:

>Stovers and ETHOS folk,
>
>I am seeking some way to maintain in my combustion area (of the small
>gasifier) the "spark" without having a spark maker. Said differently, I am
>producing volumes of tar-y gases in my small "pyrolysizer" (not the purist
>definition of gasification) and in a close-coupled way I can burn them in
>the combustor area. Great heat, but sometimes the ignition can be
>lost. It will re-light immediately with a single match, but I do not want
>to have that bother. What are the alternatives for keeping something hot
>enough to keep re-igniting the dense hot gases?

I can think of 3 options:

1 You must keep all the gases above the spontaneous ignition
temperature, probably about 600C with wood gas. This can be lowered,
see below.

2 You need a constant pilot light, which implies a support fuel

3 You need to maintain the gas velocities and proportions such that
the flame holds.

Now 1 is the easiest but depends on maintaining the correct air:gas
ratio and small heat losses from the combustion chamber other than the
massflow of the flue gases.

2 is not generally an option.

3 is one that interests me, it depends on the flame speeds of the
gases and tarry vapours, the massflow through the system, including
changes associated with excess air. We know from experiments with idd
stoves that supporting a diffuse flame is easier than a premixed one,
although the diffuse flame is more susceptible to being blown out by
the wind.

Has anyone else one of the "cigarette"[1] lighters that use
propane/butane and premix the gas:air but also have a small coil of, I
presume, a catalyst, just below the outlet. The premixed flame is just
off the top of the outlet, yet the metal coil can plainly be seen
glowing below it.

AJH
[1] to the best of my knowledge mine has not lit any cigarettes

From robdeutsch at ONLINE.COM.KH Tue Mar 30 18:49:55 2004
From: robdeutsch at ONLINE.COM.KH (Robert Deutsch)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Fw: [USCC] Residual Wood Products AKA: Fuzz
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAR.2004.064955.0700.ROBDEUTSCH@ONLINE.COM.KH>

Anyone interested in free wood fuzz? See posting to Compost listserv below.

Robert
Phnom Penh

----- Original Message -----
From: Shaney McChesney
To: compost@compostingcouncil.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 4:24 AM
Subject: [USCC] Residual Wood Products AKA: Fuzz

I work for a Medium Density Fiberboard (MDF) manufacturer that makes panel products from softwood sawdust, planer shavings and wood chips. The mill creates a bi-product when the mill shuts down that empties the refiners of excess super refined wood residuals, affectionately called "fuzz" due to its fluffy small particle.

Based on conversations I've noted on this web site regarding the use of sawdust as a soil amendment, I'm curious if this material may be useful to the farmers and/or agricultural markets in this area. We have nearly 1000 truck loads of this fuzz and are willing to pay freight to those interested in using the material, however, there is a general sense of uncertainty given the unique texture of the material.

Do you have recommendations for the type of soil and or markets to target?
Thank you.
Shaney McChesney

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Compost maillist - Compost@compostingcouncil.org

This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.

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From moonstrk at NTCNET.COM Wed Mar 31 04:26:13 2004
From: moonstrk at NTCNET.COM (Bobbi)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Help Please
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAR.2004.042613.0500.MOONSTRK@NTCNET.COM>

My husband is *very* interested in joining this list but I forgot how
to join.
Can someone please post the directions for joining so I can forward
it to him at his work address.
He is building us a stove.
Thanks!
Bobbi
*****************************************************
Moonstruck Meadow at the edge of the Ogre's Wood:
http://www.ntcnet.com/~moonstrk
===========================
Why is "abbreviation" such a long word?
*****************************************************

From adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Mar 31 13:38:40 2004
From: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (adkarve)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Midday meals to school children
Message-ID: <THU.1.APR.2004.000840.0530.ADKARVE@PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>

This refers to the message from Ram Krishnan about the school children not
getting their midday meals. I would like to narrate here the experiences of
the late Dr. P.V.Sukhatme. He is known to students of agriculture by his
book on statistical techniwues for agricultural scientists. He was the Head
of the Department of Statistics of FAO, Rome, and after retirement from FAO,
he settled in Pune, where he established, with his own funds, the Department
of Biometry at Maharashtra Association for the Cultivation of Science, Pune.
During the time that he spent with FAO, he came to study of lot of mid
day meal programmes for school children, all the world over, and he
developed certain ideas of this own about the so called malnutrition of
children in the developing countries. The fact was, that in comparison to
the U.S. American school children, the school children of India and in other
less developed countries having a racially similar population (i.e.
caucasian race) showed, age for age, less height and less weight. Only the
children from the richer stratum of the society showed body weight and
height similar to their U.S.American counterparts. The obvious inference
drawn on the basis of these data was that the children from the poorer
stratum of the society suffered from malnutrition. Dr. Sukhatme however
argued, that all the ethnic foods were nutritionally balanced, and if the
children got a bellyfull of whatever was being locally eaten, they should
not suffer any malnutrition. In fact, his own observation was, that in
times of scarcity, the parents went without food, but saw to it that the
children were properly fed. He therefore dimissed malnutrition as the cause
of growth retardation of children in the developing countries. He observed
that the children in the less developed countries fell ill more often than
the U.S.American children. A human being grows only till the age of 16,
after which he /she ceases to grow. Every time a child falls ill, its growth
stops, the period of the stoppage deepending upon the severity of the
illness. Thus if the child has suffered from serious illnesses such as
malaeria, typhoid, peneumonia, guinea worm, gastro-entiritis, small pox,
etc. the growth can stop for even upto a period of 6 months. Even with
minor diseases such as coughs, colds, scabies, influenza, diarrhoea etc.
there occurs retardation of grown by a few weeks. With five or six such
episodes in the life of a child, its total growth retardation can cover a
period of even three to four years. This is why a 16 year old in India is
just as tall and as heavy as a 12 or 13 year old U.S.American child, because
the latter has not had to face any of the diseases that an indian rural
child has had to face. Dr.Sukhatme's argument was, that improving the diet
of the Indian child would be futile, as long as the hygienic conditions of
the village did not improve, the children's growth rate is not going to
improve. He therefore selected five villages, in which the midday meal
programme for school children was stopped and the money saved was spent on
very basic elements of hygiene. He fenced off the well from which the
villagers were taking their drinking water. He installed a pump and
collected the water in a tank, where it was cholrinated. The people had to
fill their water vessels from this tank and they were not allowed to take
water directly from the well. He purchased mosquito nets, distributed them
to householders in the village, and made it compulsory that at least the
children sleep under the mosquito nets. He stopped people from using dust
from the roadside for cleaning their eating and cooking utensils, and told
them to use the ash in their cookstoves instead. The roadside dust was
always contaminated with excreta from humans and animals. He also introduced
innoculation against various diseases. He could show that the weight and
height of school children in his villages was greater than corresponding
five villages, in which the midday meal programme was continued, but without
the hygiene being improved.
The above results have been published. He even tried to persuage the
\government of Maharashtra to stop the mid-day meals for school children,
and to use the money for improving the hygienic conditions of the village
instead. But his pleas fell on deaf ears, because donation of food is
considered in the Indian ethos as an act that brings great merit to the
donor. Therefore stopping the midday meals was culturally and also
politically just not acceptable to any Government.
Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
Pune, India.
----- Original Message -----
From: <serve-a-graam@yahoogroups.com>
To: <serve-a-graam@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 2:01 PM
Subject: [serve-a-graam] Digest Number 164

> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> Send the freshest Spring Flowers with a FREE vase from only $29.99!
> Flowers are hand picked and shipped direct from the grower. Freshness
> guaranteed for 7 days or your money back!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/YykvkC/sZ2HAA/3jkFAA/xYTolB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Internet kiosks transform lives of Tiruvallur villagers
> From: "Ram Krishnan" <rkrishnan46@yahoo.com>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:44:49 -0800
> From: "Ram Krishnan" <rkrishnan46@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Internet kiosks transform lives of Tiruvallur villagers
>
> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:54:45 -0800 (PST)
>
> From: Raj Varadarajan <raj_varadarajan@yahoo.com>
>
> Subject: Internet Kiosks
>
> Internet kiosks transform lives of Tiruvallur villagers
>
> Saturday March 27 2004 00:00 IST
>
> CHENNAI: For one full year the underprivileged students of the State
> Government-run school in Vidaiyur village in neighbouring Tiruvallur
> district went without the free noon meal.
>
> The school authorities simply did not bother to give them their daily
quota
> of rice, sambar and vegetables. With no other option the students either
> carried food from their homes or starved during lunch hour. But relief
came
> to them two months ago through the rapid advances in Information
Technology.
>
> A resident of Vidaiyur represented the issue to the district Collector
> Chandramohan during a videoconferencing session arranged at the village
> `Chiraag' Internet Kiosk set up by the Chennai-based company n-Logue.
>
> And hey presto! In just two days the Collector took the authorities
> concerned to task and restored the noon meal scheme in the school.
>
> This is just one indicator of what the nine-month old Internet revolution
> has done to better the lives of the rural folk in the district.
>
> In the same village, about 20 class X students have enrolled for online
> tutorial to improve their understanding of the English and Science
subjects.
>
> By paying Rs 30 a month the students get to learn synonym, antonym,
idioms,
> passage and comprehension through an online audio tape that is played on
the
> server. The course material is developed by Ph.D scholars.
>
> Through another programme, the unlettered adults are being taught to read
> and write. The Tata Consultancy Services, in association with the Arivoli
> Iyakkam, has developed an interactive software package to enable this
online
> literacy campaign.
>
> ``By enrolling for the course adults can learn the Tamil alphabets and
> simple words in just 40 days,'' said V Varadarajan, the local service
> provider for n-Logue. While 15 persons have already completed the literacy
> programme, eight adults from Veppampattu and five villagers from
> Vishunuvakkam joined the course earlier this month.
>
> The first Internet Kiosk in Tiruvallur was opened in July last. ``As many
as
> 37 kiosks are operational now and we have got 28 additional orders. It is
a
> matter of weeks before the 100th kiosk is set up in this model district,''
> Varadarajan said.
>
> This means that about five lakh people can be covered or connected by
> technology. At present, at least five to six people visit a kiosk on a
day.
>
> All it takes to set up a kiosk is a one-time investment of Rs 50,000 by
any
> person who has studied up to higher secondary and a little bit of
> entrepreneurial skill. A wireless Internet connection is provided by
n-Logue
> for Rs 750 a month.
>
> ``The kiosk serves as a multi-purpose centre. People can chat, send
e-mail,
> play games, take photographs through a web camera and interact with
> officials during videoconferencing sessions,'' he said.
>
> Some of the kiosks in Tiruvallur have been set up by women's self-help
> groups, who were involved in the project by the Collector.
>
> ``I earned Rs 700 in February by operating the kiosk,'' revealed Nandini
> Devi of Kadambathur village who knew nothing about computers before
n-Logue
> approached her.
>
> She now encourages women like Devasena to use voice mail or chat on yahoo
> for which Rs 25 is charged per hour.
>
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/serve-a-graam/
>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> serve-a-graam-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

From bandara at NERDC.LK Wed Mar 31 05:27:54 2004
From: bandara at NERDC.LK (Punchibandara)
Date: Tue Aug 10 18:31:01 2004
Subject: Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
Message-ID: <WED.31.MAR.2004.162754.0600.BANDARA@NERDC.LK>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Punchibandara" <bandara@nerdc.lk>
To: <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>; <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [STOVES] Maintaining the ignition of hot gases

> Paul
>
> If you are burning the gas at the open end of the pipe, you can try this.
> place a piece of 25mm x 25mm 2-3 mm thick iron few inches away from the
> pipe end with the plane perpendicular to the direction of flow. this plate
> become red hot due to the flame heat. then it will keep the flame stable.
> sketch is in attachment. If you are already do it, appologize !
>
> Punchi
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew Heggie" <andrew.heggie@dtn.ntl.com>
> To: <STOVES@LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 3:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [STOVES] Maintaining the ignition of hot gases
>
>
> > On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:27:38 -0600, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
> >
> > >Stovers and ETHOS folk,
> > >
> > >I am seeking some way to maintain in my combustion area (of the small
> > >gasifier) the "spark" without having a spark maker. Said differently,
I
> am
> > >producing volumes of tar-y gases in my small "pyrolysizer" (not the
> purist
> > >definition of gasification) and in a close-coupled way I can burn them
in
> > >the combustor area. Great heat, but sometimes the ignition can be
> > >lost. It will re-light immediately with a single match, but I do not
> want
> > >to have that bother. What are the alternatives for keeping something
hot
> > >enough to keep re-igniting the dense hot gases?
> >
> >
> > I can think of 3 options:
> >
> > 1 You must keep all the gases above the spontaneous ignition
> > temperature, probably about 600C with wood gas. This can be lowered,
> > see below.
> >
> > 2 You need a constant pilot light, which implies a support fuel
> >
> > 3 You need to maintain the gas velocities and proportions such that
> > the flame holds.
> >
> > Now 1 is the easiest but depends on maintaining the correct air:gas
> > ratio and small heat losses from the combustion chamber other than the
> > massflow of the flue gases.
> >
> > 2 is not generally an option.
> >
> > 3 is one that interests me, it depends on the flame speeds of the
> > gases and tarry vapours, the massflow through the system, including
> > changes associated with excess air. We know from experiments with idd
> > stoves that supporting a diffuse flame is easier than a premixed one,
> > although the diffuse flame is more susceptible to being blown out by
> > the wind.
> >
> > Has anyone else one of the "cigarette"[1] lighters that use
> > propane/butane and premix the gas:air but also have a small coil of, I
> > presume, a catalyst, just below the outlet. The premixed flame is just
> > off the top of the outlet, yet the metal coil can plainly be seen
> > glowing below it.
> >
> > AJH
> > [1] to the best of my knowledge mine has not lit any cigarettes
>

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

March 2004 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive