November 2004 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From ventfory at iafrica.com Mon Nov 1 02:41:42 2004
From: ventfory at iafrica.com (Venter Forestry)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:41:42 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Light after dark
In-Reply-To: <102520041218.13729.417CEF1A000C59B6000035A122007348300B0A0A9D0D03019B@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20041101084145.028DFC844@urchin.mweb.co.za>

>>Probably we should kill two birds with one stone, use a 3 V charger and
supply an LED lamp as accessory to the stove, since people who lack 1 Watt
for cooking probably lack light for reading at night.

I am not sure what the experiences of others are with regards to maintaining
a light source for reading (or to allow children to study) at night, but in
South Africa, in the very poor areas, be it rural or informal settlements,
after 8 at night, you won't see any lights on. It would be great if a stove
is able to supply thermoelectric generated power for a few hours after the
fuel has been burned up, or during, for that matter. How much light is
required for reading at? Parabolic reflection (as with torches) of a
seemingly insignificant source of light could help to illuminate a room, no?

Kobus

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of tombreed at comcast.net
Sent: 25 October 2004 02:19 PM
To: Paul S. Anderson; crispin at newdawn.sz; STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Why very small power is needed for forced air

Dear Paul and Aul:

Finally got a wireless connection here in Eugene while visisting Ken Goyer,
Larry Winiarski and Aprovecho.

I'm not sure what the fuss is about, since we are using less than 1 Watt
electric to generate 3000 Watts thermal. However, we believe that a radial
configuration of the fan blades rather than the usual axial connection might
be slightly better.

We have yet to find a good 1.5 V solar charger - most are 3, 6 or 12 V.
However, in principle our <1 watt should easily be supplied by a small
charger. Probably we should kill two birds with one stone, use a 3 V
charger and supply an LED lamp as accessory to the stove, since people who
lack 1 Watt for cooking probably lack light for reading at night.

Tom Reed

-------------- Original message --------------

> To Tom Reed (and others),
>
> Can we get answers for Crispin's questions? (Tom has been on a trip, I
> believe. So I hope he can reply soon.)
>
> Paul
>
> At 11:50 PM 10/23/04 +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:
> >Dear Paul
> >
> >I have an amazing spreadsheet Nigel made for me for calculating chimney
> >draft but one of the things missing from it is a power rating for the
> >draft produced by burning X amount of biomass in Y minutes with Z amount
> >of excess air into a chimney with diameter W at temperature T. It
> >compensates for fuel moisture but not CO in the CO2 (slight heat loss
> >not worked out).
> >
> >How much draft is 1 watt of motor power? Is it a mass and rate of
> >ascent, a sort of inverse-falling-weight calculation?
> >
> >I would prefer an answer in -pascals or -millibars (negative draft in a
> >chimney) and litres per second of flow into that chimney. Does anyone
> >have an idea?
> >
> >About the natural draft solution:
> >
> >I think there are other layouts that could induce more draft, adequate
> >draft, and higher pressure draft. It is probably too soon to give up on
> >the natural approach because although the amount of power you require is
> >low, it is darn hard to get.
> >
> >I asked before about the quantity of air required and the pressure it
> >needs to be at but I didn't see any answers except from AJH (see below).
> >
> >Surely you know this from your experiments? Do you have a manometer
> >that reads in inches of water hooked into the air channel?
> >
> >Can you calculate from the amount of excess air (O2 actually) coming
> >out, and the rate of fuel burning, what the volume of air passing though
> >the fan must therefore be?
> >
> >AJH: I think there may be a mismatch between the amount of pressure
> >required for Tom's stove and the nature of a CPU fan, and that may
> >explain the (estimated) low efficiency. If you are not correct about
> >only 20% excess air, then the performance might be better but my
> >observation remains: the pressure in the Reed stove is probably much
> >higher than the pressure drop over the CPU heat sink and that little fan
> >is optimised for the latter.
> >
> >Putting a circular sticker over the fan to decrease the effective length
> >of the blades and increase the hub diameter might use less power and
> >make no difference to the stove. Might even improve it. Dr Peter South
> >(NRC Canada) convinced me that the optimum shape of a fan is unknowable
> >until the formulas have been run. It might have to be mostly hub! The
> >classic shape for medium pressure, high volume is a squirrel cage, not a
> >fan.
> >
> >Thanks
> >Crispin
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Stoves mailing list
> >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
> For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072
>
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

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From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Mon Nov 1 06:04:08 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 12:04:08 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Compact Biogas plant
Message-ID: <ec9co0p6rbdqb8p59lacrrur780gpc2h0u@4ax.com>

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:23:01 +0300, reecon wrote:

>
>How about using molasses from cane sugar processing in the compact biogas
>plant, is that possible?
>Musungu.
>
>

This is a question for ADKarve.

It might be worth pointing out that REPP does host a list dedicated to
anaerobic digestion

http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion

AJH

From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Nov 1 17:40:31 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:40:31 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Juntos-Woodgas gasifier stove document
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20041101165552.02682c10@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

Tom Reed and I are please to provide to you a copy of our presentation about

Biomass Gasification:
Clean Residential Stoves, Commercial Power
Generation, and Global Impacts

Prepared for the LAMNET Project International Workshop on
?Bioenergy for a Sustainable Development,? 8-10 Nov 2004, Vi?a del Mar, Chile

It is in .pdf (Acrobat) format and will be posted soon by Tom Miles or
Erin at the repp site for Stoves. They will notify the Stoves list when
and where it is posted.

Things to note:
1. It announces the release of the "Juntos B" version of the small
gasifiers, with FORCED air. It is quite similar to Tom Reed's WoodGas
CampStove, (which is also featured), but it is basically "tincanium"
simplified into a reproducible product. All of my previous prototypes are
lumped together as "Juntos A" versions.

2. It contains in summary form (but with sufficient detail) the
instructions on how to make this Juntos B gasifier, plus a few photographs.

3. It discusses the issues of benefits of gasifiers.

4. It presents comments on Kyoto Agreement / Clean Development Mechanisms
(CDM) and how the charcoal production capacity of the stove can be utilized
to finance the production and distribution of the gasifiers. A list of
NINE interlinked ways to win (and no evident loses ) is given.

5. It includes (final page) the "finalized" version of "The Origins of the
Juntostm Gasifier Stoves: Short Version" that has been evolving for a
couple of years. We are now [finally] going beyond the origins, and
entering the "initial implementation" stages.

6. It favorably mentions collectively the "Stovers," to whom I hereby give
my unending gratitude.

7. It invites anyone to make the small gasifiers and to participate in the
initial activities. I hope you will consider making one or more.

To Crispin and Peter and A.D. and ELK and John and David and Rogerio and
all others who reside in or who regularly work in developing areas -- all
of Aprovecho, TWP, and many others on the Stoves List Serve --, Tom and I
hope that you will feel free to utilize the contents of the document. Of
course we would like to be invited to participate with you, but we are not
setting any requirements nor restrictions. I hope to get to Thailand and
Nepal in March-April, and also back to southern Africa (maybe May?).

To Liz Bates and Grant and others who access or operate the various "Stove
Networks" of this world, feel free to utilize whatever you want from the
document. Sorry I cannot give you any customized write-ups to
distribute. Do as you see fit.

Please note: I will be heading to the conference in Chile on Thursday 4
Nov, and not returning to the USA until Christmas Day. (After Chile I go
to Brazil to see relatives and have some fun time with Rogerio's
stoves). Therefore, my e-mail contacts will be severely limited and I will
not be reading all of the messages, and replies are even harder. IF you
have something that requires (or desires) a response from me, please send
me a separate copy (even if it duplicates a messsage to the Stoves list)
with some clear indication in the Subject: line that I must see that message.

Plans are for Tom and me to attend the ETHOS meeting in Seattle on 29 - 30
January. (I hope you can attend.). There we can have in-depth hands-on
discussions. I will have additional things to report from my time with
Rogerio.

Sincerely,

Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072

From snkm at btl.net Tue Nov 2 10:41:19 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:41:19 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] The dream power plant for the tiny fan
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041102104034.009c96c0@pop.btl.net>

One stop shopping for village stove blower -- radio -- light --

http://www.eslsolar.com/solar_flashlight.htm

Solar AM/FM Radio Flashlight Crank Dynamo

ITEM NO.: ESL1061
Solar AM/FM Radio Flashlight Crank Dynamo
multi function :
1.solar radio
2.flashlight
3.siren/ alarm
power optional:
1.solar power
2.dynamo power
3.AC power ( with an optional adaptor )
4.vehicle power ( with an optional adaptor )
power output: 160mw
power : DC3V ( 2 pcs AA Nicd rechargeable batteries )
DC power jack , earphone jack , speaker included.
Item size : 230*78*150 mm ( w * d * h )

*************************

and how about this for the actual "fan"

http://www.globalsources.com/si/6008802616493/ProductDetail/Sports-cap/produ
ct_id-8839517086/action-GetProduct.htm

Solar Fan Cap

From psanders at ilstu.edu Tue Nov 2 14:09:14 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:09:14 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Available: Juntos-Woodgas gasifier stove document
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20041102140552.02689450@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

The below named article has been posted to the Internet at:

http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

We hope you enjoy it.

Paul and Tom

>Biomass Gasification:
>Clean Residential Stoves, Commercial Power
>Generation, and Global Impacts
>
>Prepared for the LAMNET Project International Workshop on
>?Bioenergy for a Sustainable Development,? 8-10 Nov 2004, Vi?a del Mar, Chile
>
>It is in .pdf (Acrobat) format

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072

From jeff.forssell at cfl.se Wed Nov 3 03:32:01 2004
From: jeff.forssell at cfl.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:32:01 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] Light after dark
Message-ID: <BA468CE631F86A4D831FCBD4EB1C692C4D7D2A@floyd.cfl.local>

>How much light is
> required for reading at? Parabolic reflection (as with torches) of a
> seemingly insignificant source of light could help to illuminate a room,

We are usually so spoiled with light that it is hard to imagine the lighting situation in third world situations. Even a single high-intensity LED can be better to read with than the common tincan-wicks-with kerosene. http://biphome.spray.se/jeff.forssell/korobojDark.jpg
(Not to mention fire risks, kerosene costs and smells)
These LEDs have a very concentrated light output (Some even too narrow!) so no reflector is needed.

I think the important change in perspective for us is not to think "light up a room" but "light up a page here and a sewing machine there". 1 Watt can be useful in the later case. In the former it might prevent tripping in the darkness (which can also be valuable).

This fellow has an interesting project, stimulation of local entrepreneurs to assemble very simple, very cheap solar chargers. http://www.biodesign.org.uk/

/Jeff
------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Forssell
Fil.Lic. i Fysik
Nationellt centrum f?r flexibelt l?rande, CFL
0611-55 79 48 (fax: 0611-55 79 80)
070-35 80 306
Box 3024, SE-871 03 H?RN?SAND /Sweden
<http://www.cfl.se/>

From crispin at newdawn.sz Wed Nov 3 06:46:35 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:46:35 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: The dream power plant for the tiny fan
Message-ID: <000401c4c1a3$3040ce40$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Stovers

I have one of those solar cap fans and it _flies_ along. It has two AA
batteries for backup.

I just keep thinking that it _must_ be possible to make a TEG from
dissimilar metals (stacked thermocouples) that will run a small fan.

What exactly would the stack look like? Is it a series of horseshoes,
stacked sheets or what?

Thanks
Crispin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:41 PM
Subject: [Stoves] The dream power plant for the tiny fan

One stop shopping for village stove blower -- radio -- light --

http://www.eslsolar.com/solar_flashlight.htm

Solar AM/FM Radio Flashlight Crank Dynamo

*************************

and how about this for the actual "fan"

http://www.globalsources.com/si/6008802616493/ProductDetail/Sports-cap/produ
ct_id-8839517086/action-GetProduct.htm

Solar Fan Cap
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

___________________________________________________________
$0 Web Hosting with up to 120MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
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From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Wed Nov 3 06:30:29 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:00:29 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives prop
References: <3.0.32.20041031123536.009bf940@pop.btl.net>
Message-ID: <000101c4c208$81f10600$4e5741db@adkarve>

Dear Peter,
the two and three inch chimney pipes get choked in no time at all.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:23 AM
Subject: RE: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives
prop

>
> a 20 foot chimney 3 inches ID keeps looking better and better -- eh?? For
> small stove -- even 2 inches!!
>
> Peter - Belize
>
>
> At 05:11 PM 10/31/2004 -0000, Gavin Gulliver-Goodall wrote:
> >No winding up again can be easy.
> >
> >Have a second length of string wound the opposite way. With a small
weight
> >on it.
> >Hooks on the end of each length of string and the bucket can simply be
> >lifted and swapped from hook to hook.
> >
> >However- I'm not that daft, the return would reverse a simple axial fan.
> >However a centrifugal fan can be designed to operate in both directions
and,
> >has different characteristics which may be beneficial to the operation.
> >
> >I think this technology is called an escapement and has been suggested
> >before, and been in use for 100's of years it was superceded by the
spring,
> >which in turn was superceded by the electrical battery. Each in turn a
less
> >efficient (but more portable and saleable) method of storing energy!
> >Gavin
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> >[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Peter Singfield
> >Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 16:45
> >To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
> >Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling
weightdrives
> >prop
> >
> >At 12:06 PM 10/31/2004 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:
> >>On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:58:14 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
> >>
> >>KISS would suggest lifting the bucket and then filling it with stones
> >>would be easier.
> >>
> >>AJH
> >
> >Certainly -- a cheap rubber band drive model air plane propeller -- say
10
> >cents -- a shaft with a spool to wind string (say 20 lb test fish line??)
> >around -- spool should be just two washers mounted on shaft -- shaft
could
> >ne a six in nail -- bearing blocks hole in hard wood -- that attached to
> >bucket on pole with pulley at top --
> >
> >bucket moves down spinning plastic propeller -- gearing is high -- so
> >propeller is a governor -- adjust for right air flow by weight in bucket.
> >
> >Winding up that prop again is going to be tedious though!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Peter
> >_______________________________________________
> >Stoves mailing list
> >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Wed Nov 3 06:33:10 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:03:10 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Compact Biogas plant
References: <ec9co0p6rbdqb8p59lacrrur780gpc2h0u@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000201c4c208$82eccb20$4e5741db@adkarve>

Yes, molasses should work.
Yours A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
To: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Compact Biogas plant

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:23:01 +0300, reecon wrote:

>
>How about using molasses from cane sugar processing in the compact biogas
>plant, is that possible?
>Musungu.
>
>

This is a question for ADKarve.

It might be worth pointing out that REPP does host a list dedicated to
anaerobic digestion

http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion

AJH
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Nov 3 22:28:34 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:28:34 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: (Fwd) saw-dust stoves
Message-ID: <033e01c4c227$a892e9d0$6701a8c0@Yellow>

----- Original Message -----
From: CHARLES NWACHUKWU
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:42 AM
Subject: (Fwd) saw-dust stoves

Sir,

i have been trying to find a solution for the combustion of saw dust, so i embacked on a project to design a saw dust stove.
i would like to get some assitance from you on how best to go about this project. moreover, this will go a long way to alleviating the so much dependency on kerosine and wood fuel usage .thank you.

yours sincerely,
charles nwachukwu.
charleyslim at yahoo.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com</a

From dstill at epud.net Thu Nov 4 00:19:54 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:19:54 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: (Fwd) saw-dust stoves
In-Reply-To: <033e01c4c227$a892e9d0$6701a8c0@Yellow>
Message-ID: <20041104061954.76D84C1@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Mr. Nwachukwu,

The cleanest method for burning sawdust is to use a hamper that drops
sawdust onto an inclined grate looking like a ladder at about 45 degrees.
The sawdust is replaced at the same rate as it burns away. Placing the grate
under a short insulated cylinder creates draft that assists the fire to
combust efficiently.

In India sawdust is packed around a pipe inside a metal can. The pipe is
then removed. Air holes at the bottom of the formed cylinder bring in air
which assists the walls made from sawdust to continue burning. This is not
very clean burning, however.

Best,

Dean Still
Aprovecho

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Thu Nov 4 00:56:44 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:56:44 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] sawdust stove
Message-ID: <4189D2AC.2070602@legacyfound.org>

Charles,
the swadust stove is deceptively simple. You probably already have the
information about using a 5 to 8 liter tapered cylindrical/pail mold
with 4 to 6 removeable wood "spokes" (~30 mm dia) placed in the sides
placed near the bottom. Add to this, a nother wood, central axel (~50 mm
dia.), placed down into the cylinder and you have the mold. You add the
sawdust gradually (in 3 to 5 cm layers) pounding it as you go. Once the
cylinder if filled you gently remove the center axel plug and the spokes
such that it now appears hollow and yoyu can see in from the spoke holed
to the center as well.
I can send you a diagram if you'd like.

Now for level two: Some tips to make sure it actually works !
1) Make sure the spoke plugs and the central axel plug are tapered say 3
mm dia reduction for every 30 mm of length.
2) Make sure that the sides of the spokes and the central axel plugs are
smooth (a bit of candle wax rubbed into the plugs), to ensure you can
remove them without tearing apart the sawdust. use a hardwood for this
or at least a well sealed soft wood. You want it to withstand any
abrasion such that the surface will remain smooth through repeated usage.
3) The moisture content of the sawdust is also important: too dry and it
cannot be compacted: too wet and you will find it difficult to ignite
with lots of smoke and little effective heat output, because most of the
energy will have been spent just to remove the moisture. A good
"field" test is to scoop up a handful and clench it in your fist: Upon
release it should be wet enough to stick together. but you should also
not have it so wet as to not see a wet surface, much less any water
dripping off either. Commercial sawdust log production calls for
moisture contents of around 10% but they are operating at 600 bars pf
pressure and well over 200 deg C. With hand pounding and ambient
temperatures you will need / can get away with/ more moisture but be
prepared to let the finished mold dry out for a few days before use. You
can also plot weight changes with time to discover when it is dryed out
to ambient humidity and therefore at an optimum condition for actual use
but simple experience will tell you just as well.
4) Some use a handful of corn starch and clay mixed into teh sawdust, to
help bind it up but these tend to retard ignition and do not do much for
heat output.
5) One of the best fuels to ignite the sawdust is paraffin (kerosene) as
it has sufficiently high burning temperature to ignite the sawdust
quickly You will only need a few cm3 for this dripped over the top.
Speaking if which start the fire from the top, not the bottom ! Seems
that we create a far less smokey and far hotter fire when it is "top
lit" -- at least this is what many are finding for use of a variety of
solid fuels.

I normally promote the making of briquettes out of sawdust mixed with
various other ag and commercially processed residues but where you are
located near a sustained source of sawdust and your market for the
product is very near, the sawdust stove idea makes better sense. As a
microenterprise opportunity, you can produce the sawdust stove mold kits
and sell them, and / or provide a sawdust stove recharging service for
others who can buy the cylinder from you at the outset.

Happy burning,
Richard Stanley
www.legacyfound.org

From charleyslim at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 06:39:23 2004
From: charleyslim at yahoo.com (CHARLES NWACHUKWU)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:39:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stoves] i need assitance
Message-ID: <20041104123923.65927.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com>

sir,

please i need assitance on how to develop sawdust stove of very high efficiency and would like to go into briquetting of saw dust but first, i want to be able to tap effectively all the energy that would be released in the brequetting process itself.
i live close to an abundant source of sawdust and have the hope of starting a pilot project on this as soon as i can get already existing information on already constructed sawdust stove and sawdust briquetting.

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From snkm at btl.net Thu Nov 4 08:01:11 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:01:11 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives prop
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041103185653.009c4ec0@pop.btl.net>

For a smokey dirty fire -- true -- but this stove is supposed to be a clean
flu gas model.

Further -- there would be much greater velocities --

It should be tried.

Certainly a 3 inch diameter should work on such a very small stove.
Probably even a two.

Peter

At 06:00 PM 11/3/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
>Dear Peter,
>the two and three inch chimney pipes get choked in no time at all.
>Yours
>A.D.Karve
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
>To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
>Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:23 AM
>Subject: RE: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives
>prop
>
>
>>
>> a 20 foot chimney 3 inches ID keeps looking better and better -- eh?? For
>> small stove -- even 2 inches!!
>>
>> Peter - Belize
>>
>>
>> At 05:11 PM 10/31/2004 -0000, Gavin Gulliver-Goodall wrote:
>> >No winding up again can be easy.
>> >
>> >Have a second length of string wound the opposite way. With a small
>weight
>> >on it.
>> >Hooks on the end of each length of string and the bucket can simply be
>> >lifted and swapped from hook to hook.
>> >
>> >However- I'm not that daft, the return would reverse a simple axial fan.
>> >However a centrifugal fan can be designed to operate in both directions
>and,
>> >has different characteristics which may be beneficial to the operation.
>> >
>> >I think this technology is called an escapement and has been suggested
>> >before, and been in use for 100's of years it was superceded by the
>spring,
>> >which in turn was superceded by the electrical battery. Each in turn a
>less
>> >efficient (but more portable and saleable) method of storing energy!
>> >Gavin
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
>> >[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Peter Singfield
>> >Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 16:45
>> >To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
>> >Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling
>weightdrives
>> >prop
>> >
>> >At 12:06 PM 10/31/2004 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:
>> >>On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:58:14 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
>> >>
>> >>KISS would suggest lifting the bucket and then filling it with stones
>> >>would be easier.
>> >>
>> >>AJH
>> >
>> >Certainly -- a cheap rubber band drive model air plane propeller -- say
>10
>> >cents -- a shaft with a spool to wind string (say 20 lb test fish line??)
>> >around -- spool should be just two washers mounted on shaft -- shaft
>could
>> >ne a six in nail -- bearing blocks hole in hard wood -- that attached to
>> >bucket on pole with pulley at top --
>> >
>> >bucket moves down spinning plastic propeller -- gearing is high -- so
>> >propeller is a governor -- adjust for right air flow by weight in bucket.
>> >
>> >Winding up that prop again is going to be tedious though!!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Peter
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Stoves mailing list
>> >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>> >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Thu Nov 4 08:32:17 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:32:17 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives prop
References: <3.0.32.20041103185653.009c4ec0@pop.btl.net>
Message-ID: <006401c4c27b$7b5af120$e19a0a40@kevin>

Dear Peter

I think you are "bang on" with the justification for trying the small
diameter stack.

If the smaller stack plugs up, then this is proof that the stove is of a
poor design.

Small diameter stacks are almost the perfect "poor stove design detector."
We can tell the World how perfect our stoves are, but we can't fool a small
diameter stack. :-)

Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
To: "adkarve" <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives
prop

>
>
> For a smokey dirty fire -- true -- but this stove is supposed to be a
clean
> flu gas model.
>
> Further -- there would be much greater velocities --
>
> It should be tried.
>
> Certainly a 3 inch diameter should work on such a very small stove.
> Probably even a two.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> At 06:00 PM 11/3/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> >Dear Peter,
> >the two and three inch chimney pipes get choked in no time at all.
> >Yours
> >A.D.Karve
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> >To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> >Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:23 AM
> >Subject: RE: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling
weightdrives
> >prop
> >
> >
> >>
> >> a 20 foot chimney 3 inches ID keeps looking better and better -- eh??
For
> >> small stove -- even 2 inches!!
> >>
> >> Peter - Belize
> >>
> >>
> >> At 05:11 PM 10/31/2004 -0000, Gavin Gulliver-Goodall wrote:
> >> >No winding up again can be easy.
> >> >
> >> >Have a second length of string wound the opposite way. With a small
> >weight
> >> >on it.
> >> >Hooks on the end of each length of string and the bucket can simply be
> >> >lifted and swapped from hook to hook.
> >> >
> >> >However- I'm not that daft, the return would reverse a simple axial
fan.
> >> >However a centrifugal fan can be designed to operate in both direction
s
> >and,
> >> >has different characteristics which may be beneficial to the
operation.
> >> >
> >> >I think this technology is called an escapement and has been suggested
> >> >before, and been in use for 100's of years it was superceded by the
> >spring,
> >> >which in turn was superceded by the electrical battery. Each in turn a
> >less
> >> >efficient (but more portable and saleable) method of storing energy!
> >> >Gavin
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> >> >[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Peter Singfield
> >> >Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 16:45
> >> >To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
> >> >Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling
> >weightdrives
> >> >prop
> >> >
> >> >At 12:06 PM 10/31/2004 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:
> >> >>On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:58:14 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>KISS would suggest lifting the bucket and then filling it with stones
> >> >>would be easier.
> >> >>
> >> >>AJH
> >> >
> >> >Certainly -- a cheap rubber band drive model air plane propeller --
say
> >10
> >> >cents -- a shaft with a spool to wind string (say 20 lb test fish
line??)
> >> >around -- spool should be just two washers mounted on shaft -- shaft
> >could
> >> >ne a six in nail -- bearing blocks hole in hard wood -- that attached
to
> >> >bucket on pole with pulley at top --
> >> >
> >> >bucket moves down spinning plastic propeller -- gearing is high -- so
> >> >propeller is a governor -- adjust for right air flow by weight in
bucket.
> >> >
> >> >Winding up that prop again is going to be tedious though!!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Peter
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Stoves mailing list
> >> >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> >> >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> >> >
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Stoves mailing list
> >> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> >> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Nov 4 08:54:23 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:54:23 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives prop
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20041103185653.009c4ec0@pop.btl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20041104084445.021a0af0@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 08:01 AM 11/4/04 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:

>For a smokey dirty fire -- true -- but this stove is supposed to be a clean
>flu gas model.
Stovers.

That is true. I have had no problems of tars or soot or accumulations in
my stove pipes at any lengths or diameter, (at least not so far !!!, and I
have burned MANY times.).

>Further -- there would be much greater velocities --

>It should be tried.
>
>Certainly a 3 inch diameter should work on such a very small stove.
>Probably even a two.
4 inch is too big (unless there is an advantage of 4 inches after going
through a 3 or 2 inch diameter venturi).

Needed length is related to the amount of heat / air passing
through. Short seems to be fine WHEN it is a hot fire that drafts on
upward even beyond the upper end of the chimney.

Paul

>Peter
>
>
>
>At 06:00 PM 11/3/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> >Dear Peter,
> >the two and three inch chimney pipes get choked in no time at all.
> >Yours
> >A.D.Karve
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> >To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> >Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:23 AM
> >Subject: RE: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives
> >prop
> >
> >
> >>
> >> a 20 foot chimney 3 inches ID keeps looking better and better -- eh?? For
> >> small stove -- even 2 inches!!
> >>
> >> Peter - Belize
> >>
> >>

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Nov 4 09:28:01 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:28:01 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives prop
Message-ID: <00a201c4c282$e42ce120$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Paul

I think that you might actually gain from changing a chimney to smaller and
smaller diameters as it rises.

The chimney runs on heat. If the system is to be as efficient as possible,
then the less total air and the most heat entrained in the chimney the
better. The best way to make the chimney works less efficiently (talking
about one _after_ the pots) would be to draft in a lot of cold air as it
starts to rise. This would kill the average temp for a negative benefit in
draft.

Therefore the reverse should help to an extent...until the velocity
generated more friction than the gain from saved heat.

If the chimney was reduced to 1/2 the area and the velocity doubled, the
average temperature of the chimney would be higher with more total draft
(within certain limits I agree). Below 3 metres per second, the chimney
benefits from a higher temperature and the best way to get it is to not
chill the gases after leaving the stove. Reducing the diameter will raise
the average temp in that fixed height.

As for the chimney leading _to_ the burner, that is a different story and is
what I thought we were talking about earlier.

Regards
Crispin

From jeff.forssell at cfl.se Thu Nov 4 09:21:53 2004
From: jeff.forssell at cfl.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:21:53 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives prop
Message-ID: <BA468CE631F86A4D831FCBD4EB1C692C4D7D3D@floyd.cfl.local>

> about one _after_ the pots) would be to draft in a lot of cold air as
it
> starts to rise. This would kill the average temp for a negative
benefit
> in draft.

An earlier experience (Tanzania 1989) of well-meant attempts to use a
chimney to free women from a smokey Hell was to be found in the house of
a cabinet minister. The kitchen was planned to be IN the house and a BIG
chimney (about 1 square meter) was made over the iron grate where the
pots were to be above the wood fire. Though it seemed unnecessarily
expensive and not able to control like a more closed-in fire, I would
have thought that it would have at least taken away the smoke. But it
apparently didn't (not enough anyhow), so they had set up the usual
corrugated iron shed with 3 stone stoves out behind the house. It was,
as usual, blackened with smoke.

/Jeff
/Sweden

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Thu Nov 4 09:55:51 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:55:51 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives prop
In-Reply-To: <006401c4c27b$7b5af120$e19a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <002201c4c286$c2d80640$1900a8c0@a31server>

Kevin and all.

Here, here! I agree completely.

By the way, one other thing to note:

Many, if not all, "gas burning" appliances use a loose coupled flue, does
anyone know the real reason(s) ?

ID (induced draft) and to get NOx emissions down (like the A.I.R. pump on
cars in the 80's).

Because the space the appliance is in, will be warmer than the outdoor air
(heating season) the loose couple allows a light draft when the unit is NOT
in "full burn", and adds air to the flue gasses when it is....

I wonder if one was to add an "air only" passage to the rear or side of a
stove, where it grabs floor or outdoor air, preheats it, and then adds it to
the flue (in somewhat of an inverted "Y" configuration that is above the
stove), this way the stove will not "back draft" to a lower point than it's
own firebox.

I realize that most of the stoves we are referring to, would most likely be
used closer to the equator than I am, this is the reason I'm saying add an
"outside the firebox" air preheat passage, that way even in a warmer climate
the "indoor air" will still be warmer than outdoor.

Greg Manning,

Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Kevin Chisholm
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:32 AM
To: adkarve; Peter Singfield
Cc: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling
weightdrives prop

Dear Peter

I think you are "bang on" with the justification for trying the small
diameter stack.

If the smaller stack plugs up, then this is proof that the stove is of a
poor design.

Small diameter stacks are almost the perfect "poor stove design detector."
We can tell the World how perfect our stoves are, but we can't fool a small
diameter stack. :-)

Kevin Chisholm

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From dstill at epud.net Thu Nov 4 10:16:46 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:16:46 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability
In-Reply-To: <002201c4c286$c2d80640$1900a8c0@a31server>
Message-ID: <20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Friends,

Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint, that will
double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are starting
to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
enough...

Best,

Dean

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Thu Nov 4 10:35:20 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:35:20 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives prop
References: <002201c4c286$c2d80640$1900a8c0@a31server>
Message-ID: <008f01c4c28c$4c7a25e0$e19a0a40@kevin>

Dear Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "a31ford" <a31ford at inetlink.ca>

>
> Kevin and all.
>
> Here, here! I agree completely.
>
> By the way, one other thing to note:
>
> Many, if not all, "gas burning" appliances use a loose coupled flue, does
> anyone know the real reason(s) ?
>
The purpose is to "kill the draft" so that a: the pilot light does not get
snuffed out. b: so that flames don't lift off the burner and go sooty, or
get snuffed.

>
>
> ID (induced draft) and to get NOx emissions down (like the A.I.R. pump on
> cars in the 80's).
>
> Because the space the appliance is in, will be warmer than the outdoor air
> (heating season) the loose couple allows a light draft when the unit is
NOT
> in "full burn", and adds air to the flue gasses when it is....

They can also be looked on as a "hole in the roof, through which warmed
inside air escapes." :-)

Kindest regards,

Kevin

From snkm at btl.net Thu Nov 4 10:46:45 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:46:45 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041104104540.009c9100@pop.btl.net>

If one thinks in terms of a smaller diameter chimney materials needs go
down sufficiently that one can probably build a two inch Chimney from 28
gauge stainless sheet metal for the same or less cost of using galvanized
sheet metal.

As just mentioned -- a solution to "fouling" would be to make the first
section above the stove of larger diameter -- say one foot length of 4 inch
-- then with a reducer to fit the 2 inch. Or even 18 inches --

As also was mentioned -- one can put a side port with a "damper" in that
same 18 inch length. So by adjusting the balance weight (a knurled piece of
metal sliding in and out on a threaded rod) one can control induced draft
"suction" -- otherwise one can end up with to much of a good thing.

The 18 inch primary chimney port with damper would be then part of the
stove makers responsibility. That is that would be part of the stove as
received.

A further embodiment could be another tube surrounding the first -- say 8
inches diameter -- by 12 inches long -- below the "damper" -- from stove
top up -- which would have an inlet at the top -- an outlet at the bottom
-- to be filled with water -- then the house hold has hot water as a by
product as well.

Thus greatly increasing the efficiency of the stove.

This chimney manifold attachment should be able to be easily removed for
cleaning.

Now -- if you want to go even "fancier" -- they sell small catalytic
converters already for existing biomass stoves to put into that same four
inch manifold.

How long would the 2 inch diameter thin gauge stainless pipe be??

Well -- standard sheets are four feet by eight feet -- suggest 4 ft
sections -- this would allow for spot welding the over lap.

3 such section would be about 11 feet total length (slip coupling losses
included) -- plus say another ft from the manifold -- so 12 feet total.

That certainly can pull a very healthy induced draft.

Another material to consider would be aluminum sheet -- as the manifold
--especially if doubling as a water heater -- would sufficiently reduce
flue temps.

Now -- add all costs up -- plus the increased durability and life span --
and compare that to using a small fan and the power plant for such.

Further -- never forget -- your talking total elimination of toxic gas
accumulation in the work place!!

Which I believe is the prime requirement at this time??

As I mentioned at the start -- hard to beat -- maybe we are all better
advised to flow with the current rather than against?

Peter -- Belize

At 08:16 AM 11/4/2004 -0800, Dean Still wrote:
>Dear Friends,
>
>Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint, that will
>double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are starting
>to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
>doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
>enough...
>
>Best,
>
>Dean
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From rmiranda at inet.com.br Thu Nov 4 12:09:40 2004
From: rmiranda at inet.com.br (Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:09:40 -0200
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability
In-Reply-To: <20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net>
References: <002201c4c286$c2d80640$1900a8c0@a31server>
<20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104160108.027f8a38@inet.com.br>

Dean:

I believe PROLE?A'/Nicaragua is using a black paint used for boilers, etc
that can hold up to 800 Celsius (if i am not wrong) to increase chimney
durability. I don't remember the name or the chemical contents of this
paint, but Marlyng Buitrago (prolena at sdnnic.org.ni) could tell you more
details.

Also in order to increase durability (in addition to this paint) PROLE?A
uses 26 gauge galvanized iron (instead of 28), and it did help.

Rog?rio

At 14:16 4/11/2004, Dean Still wrote:
>Dear Friends,
>
>Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint, that will
>double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are starting
>to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
>doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
>enough...
>
>Best,
>
>Dean
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Thu Nov 4 12:09:24 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:09:24 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives prop
In-Reply-To: <008f01c4c28c$4c7a25e0$e19a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <002301c4c299$6b1a5850$1900a8c0@a31server>

Kevin and all....

I think we are looking at the same pipe from opposite ends...

The term "kill the draft" around here, is called "Create a place to back
draft to, (if one happens) in-lieu of snuffing the pilot". In my eyes, we
can exempt "lifting the flames" in a stove setting..

(Again, this "loose couple" would simply give a stove a place of "0"
pressure point, if a gust of wind came along, and this is the same effect
the loose coupling does for us.)

I do agree with the "hole on the roof" statement, However, most, if not all,
furnace rooms around here (key word.. rooms) have an external outside air
source for the burner, and are "isolated from the rest of the house or
office".

(Again, this is the "outside air to the preheat on the back of the stove
thing", doing just that, giving the stove a place to vent flue gases,
in-lieu of forcing them into the room, should a gust of wind create a
momentary back draft).

I would have to assume that the furnace room thing is not the case in your
neck of the woods, but here, we MUST conserve every bit of heat we can, as
MINUS 40c can literally suck the warmth out of a person within 10 minutes.
( and you thought water is cold... :)

I can retrieve notes from class about this, but I see we are like a
manometer, I'm on the low side, while you are on the high side.

P.S. I think someone was speaking about "the ejector effect" earlier.... can
we use that wording instead of "loose couple" ?

Cheers!

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Chisholm [mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:35 AM
To: a31ford; STOVES (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling
weightdrives prop

Dear Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "a31ford" <a31ford at inetlink.ca>

They can also be looked on as a "hole in the roof, through which warmed
inside air escapes." :-)

Kindest regards,

Kevin

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Thu Nov 4 12:14:22 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:14:22 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability
In-Reply-To: <20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <002401c4c29a$1cc6f6d0$1900a8c0@a31server>

Dear Dean and all...

One solution I have found is doing "porcelain" paint on the inside just as
it's being installed, fire it up, the heat of the installation converts the
glaze to porcelain.

I know it's not the best solution, but hey, it's just my 2 cents worth :)

Greg Manning

Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Dean Still
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:17 AM
To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG; 'ethos'
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability

Dear Friends,

Best,

Dean

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From phoenix98604 at earthlink.net Thu Nov 4 12:34:57 2004
From: phoenix98604 at earthlink.net (Art Krenzel)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:34:57 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability
References: <002401c4c29a$1cc6f6d0$1900a8c0@a31server>
Message-ID: <003a01c4c29c$fcf81520$b1c0f204@7k6rv21>

To all,

Another idea is to paint it with sodium silicate. It "tumeses" when hit by
heat providing a thin barrier for both insulation and corrosion protection.
It also has fantastic adhesion to water wetable surfaces including metal.
Make sure the normally oiled surface of the sheet metal is removed before
you paint it with sodium silicate. It is quite cheap and readily available
in craft stores.

Art Krenzel.

----- Original Message -----
From: "a31ford" <a31ford at inetlink.ca>
To: "STOVES (E-mail)" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:14 AM
Subject: RE: [Stoves] Chimney durability

>
> Dear Dean and all...
>
> One solution I have found is doing "porcelain" paint on the inside just
> as
> it's being installed, fire it up, the heat of the installation converts
> the
> glaze to porcelain.
>
> I know it's not the best solution, but hey, it's just my 2 cents worth :)
>
> Greg Manning
>
> Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Dean Still
> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:17 AM
> To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG; 'ethos'
> Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability
>
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint, that will
> double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are
> starting
> to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
> doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
> enough...
>
> Best,
>
> Dean

From Carefreeland at aol.com Thu Nov 4 16:19:09 2004
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:19:09 EST
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Venturi and coanda, etc. -- falling weightdrives prop
Message-ID: <1b8.5676deb.2ebc04dd@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/4/04 10:16:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
crispin at newdawn.sz writes:

DD Dan Dimiduk comments.
>
> Dear Paul
>
> I think that you might actually gain from changing a chimney to smaller and
> smaller diameters as it rises.

DD This is illegal in our fire district, as the creosote on woodburing home
fireplaces and stoves tends to collect at the junction.

>
> The chimney runs on heat. If the system is to be as efficient as possible,
> then the less total air and the most heat entrained in the chimney the
> better. The best way to make the chimney works less efficiently (talking
> about one _after_ the pots) would be to draft in a lot of cold air as it
> starts to rise. This would kill the average temp for a negative benefit in
> draft.

DD Agreed, in my system I use bleeding secondary air as a wastegate. I do not
have good controls though. The bleeding extra air insures a better secondary
combustion at low combustion levels where mixing and temperatures are not
optimum.

>
> Therefore the reverse should help to an extent...until the velocity
> generated more friction than the gain from saved heat.

DD I have not been able to download your draft calculator. I'm sure this
effect could be represented by an X on a chart. The sweet spot is where velocity
is optimum for the temps and insulation factors. An insulated chimney will
keep it's heat longer.

>
> If the chimney was reduced to 1/2 the area and the velocity doubled, the
> average temperature of the chimney would be higher with more total draft
> (within certain limits I agree). Below 3 metres per second, the chimney
> benefits from a higher temperature and the best way to get it is to not
> chill the gases after leaving the stove. Reducing the diameter will raise
> the average temp in that fixed height.

DD In my situation, I was clearly past that point. I was trying to reduce
combustion rates to conserve fuel through the night. I was chilling and
condensing the low burn soot and tars by admitting secondary cool air in the high burn
afterburner tube.
DD When the burner was stoked, and more primary air admitted, the resulting
after-born would ignite that tar buildup in a controlled cleanout cycle burn.
The cleanout cycle acted in turn to quickly accelerate the burn and preheat the
heat exchange from the after-born tube.
DD Someday I will introduce pre-heated primary air jets for a clean one step
low burn. Then I will control the draft entierly through the controls for
primary and seconday air.

>
> As for the chimney leading _to_ the burner, that is a different story and is
> what I thought we were talking about earlier.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
>
>

DD Dan Dimiduk

From jeff.forssell at cfl.se Fri Nov 5 01:15:33 2004
From: jeff.forssell at cfl.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:15:33 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] big chimneys vs small chimneys
Message-ID: <BA468CE631F86A4D831FCBD4EB1C692C4D7D3F@floyd.cfl.local>

Discovered that I had been doing too many things at the same time when I sent my last contribution. Neither the SUBJECT field nor the snippet I seemed to be responding to fitted with the text I sent.

> If the chimney was reduced to 1/2 the area and the velocity doubled, the
> average temperature of the chimney would be higher with more total draft
> (within certain limits I agree). Below 3 metres per second, the chimney
> benefits from a higher temperature and the best way to get it is to not
> chill the gases after leaving the stove. Reducing the diameter will raise
> the average temp in that fixed height.

An earlier experience (Tanzania 1989) of well-meant attempts to use a
chimney to free women from a smokey Hell was to be found in the country house of a cabinet minister. The kitchen was planned to be IN the house and a BIG chimney (about 1 square meter) was made over the iron grate where the
pots were to be above the wood fire. Though it seemed unnecessarily
expensive and not able to control like a more closed-in fire, I would
have thought that it would have at least taken away the smoke. But it
apparently didn't (not enough anyhow), so they had set up the usual
corrugated iron shed with 3 stone stoves out behind the house. It was,
as usual, blackened with smoke.

Sorry to burden the list twice before being somewhat coherent :-(

Yours truly,
Jeff Forssell
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Forssell
Fil. Lic. in Physics
Swedish Agency for Flexible Learning (CFL)
Phone: +46 (0)611-55 79 48
Mobile: +46 (0)70 35 80 306
Box 3024, SE-871 03 H?RN?SAND /Sweden

From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Nov 5 02:09:50 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:09:50 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Chimney durability
Message-ID: <004501c4c30f$e74067a0$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Dean

We have had some success in prevent corrosion by using silicone paint
(black, in our case) to paint things like the little baking stove and the
8mm rod stands that the BBQ plate sits on.

The advantage of this paint is that it paints on like normal coatings. When
it is dry it is black, and when it has reached 200 C its polymers crosslink
and the colour chances to charcoal grey. Thus it is easy to see if it has
been 'cooked'. We cook them in an electric stove.

Once crosslinked, it is far more difficult to scrape off. It sticks well.
It also radiates well (black). It is available in white.

It can take 540 degrees C without damage.

It is not a cheap product but not much would be required for a chimney and
it is certainly a lot cheaper than putting in a new one. The surface area
of a chimney isn't very large. We dip welded wire things in it and hang
them on the chainlink fence! In that case we thin it a bit (perhaps 10%).

Stir it well before using - the solids really tend to settle down to the
bottom and cake hard after a long time. It is often called HTAxxxxx like
HTA540 for 'high temperature application 540 deg'

Regards
Crispin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>; "'ethos'" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 6:16 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability

Dear Friends,

Best,

Dean

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Nov 5 02:27:16 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:27:16 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: big chimneys vs small chimneys
Message-ID: <005901c4c311$450f2fa0$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Jeff

I concur with this analysis. I was asked to visit a doctors house in
Malkerns Valley and thye had hte problem that the chimney was too big to
function. By the time the smoke chilled to the cement temperatures, it have
not yet exited the top.

It filled up with smoke then it all came in to the house. I solved it by
inserting a smaller metal chimney inside the cement brick one so there was a
net draft.

The interesting part of the calculation was that the cement inside the
chimney was clder than the ambient air temperature outside so the chimney
actually was running constantly in reverse when there was no fire. It took
a small fire to maintain an equilibrium!

Regards
Crispin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Forssell" <jeff.forssell at cfl.se>
To: "Stoves List" <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:15 AM
Subject: [Stoves] big chimneys vs small chimneys

Discovered that I had been doing too many things at the same time when I
sent my last contribution. Neither the SUBJECT field nor the snippet I
seemed to be responding to fitted with the text I sent.

> If the chimney was reduced to 1/2 the area and the velocity doubled, the
> average temperature of the chimney would be higher with more total draft
> (within certain limits I agree). Below 3 metres per second, the chimney
> benefits from a higher temperature and the best way to get it is to not
> chill the gases after leaving the stove. Reducing the diameter will raise
> the average temp in that fixed height.

An earlier experience (Tanzania 1989) of well-meant attempts to use a
chimney to free women from a smokey Hell was to be found in the country
house of a cabinet minister. The kitchen was planned to be IN the house and
a BIG chimney (about 1 square meter) was made over the iron grate where the
pots were to be above the wood fire. Though it seemed unnecessarily
expensive and not able to control like a more closed-in fire, I would
have thought that it would have at least taken away the smoke. But it
apparently didn't (not enough anyhow), so they had set up the usual
corrugated iron shed with 3 stone stoves out behind the house. It was,
as usual, blackened with smoke.

Sorry to burden the list twice before being somewhat coherent :-(

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From jeff.forssell at cfl.se Fri Nov 5 02:42:51 2004
From: jeff.forssell at cfl.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:42:51 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] RE: big chimneys vs small chimneys
Message-ID: <BA468CE631F86A4D831FCBD4EB1C692C4D7D43@floyd.cfl.local>

> The interesting part of the calculation was that the cement inside the
> chimney was colder than the ambient air temperature outside so the chimney
> actually was running constantly in reverse when there was no fire. It
> took a small fire to maintain an equilibrium!
>

How can the cement have a lower than ambient temperature? My only explanations would be: something wrong with the calculation (:->) or possibly transient periods when moisture in the cement is evaporating. Is there any other possibility I'm missing?

Otherwise we ought to expand our services to include cement refrigerators!

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Fri Nov 5 03:08:59 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 11:08:59 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability
In-Reply-To: <20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net>
References: <20041104161647.57304A8@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <418B432B.6070007@legacyfound.org>

Dean,

I don't know the chemistry of the reaction but by simple observation
the brown almost hard resinous coating which so often lines the chimney
tends to act as a preservative. Ironically it is the very stuff which a
good stove will tend to burn off. Any way of stabilising that compound
or group of compounds ?

Intuitively it would seem to make sense to try to work with mother
nature if one can...
Richard

Dean Still wrote:

>Dear Friends,
>
>Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint, that will
>double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are starting
>to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
>doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
>enough...
>
>Best,
>
>Dean
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>
>
>
>

From crispin at newdawn.sz Fri Nov 5 06:54:56 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:54:56 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: big chimneys vs small chimneys
Message-ID: <007f01c4c336$b2122380$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Jeff

Yes indeed: when it rains the chimney gets all wet inside, and the outside
dries off in the sun. When people want to light a fire there is a chilled
cement surface right up the chimney and getting the fire going requires
putting a lot of heat into the chimney to get an upward flow. Then, when
the hot gases come up, it dries out (cools by evaporation) the cement and
kills the lift.

Having a dry metal chimney inside the large cement one solved it.

Regards
Crispin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Forssell" <jeff.forssell at cfl.se>
To: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispin at newdawn.sz>; "Stoves List"
<STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Stoves] RE: big chimneys vs small chimneys

How can the cement have a lower than ambient temperature? My only
explanations would be: something wrong with the calculation (:->) or
possibly transient periods when moisture in the cement is evaporating. Is
there any other possibility I'm missing?

Otherwise we ought to expand our services to include cement refrigerators!

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Nov 5 09:32:33 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:32:33 -0800
Subject: Fw: [Stoves] Chimney durability
Message-ID: <006f01c4c34d$082fb960$6701a8c0@Yellow>

Forwarded to the list:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sulpya Bigpond" <kayesulpya at bigpond.com.kh>
To: "Richard Stanley" <rstanley at legacyfound.org>; "Dean Still"
<dstill at epud.net>
Cc: "'ethos'" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>; <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimney durability

> Hi,
> the hard resinous coating acts as preservative to wood but if it is in
> metal
> chimney, the it gets burn as the chimney is heated as I observed in Save
> the
> Children US project area in Nepal. For durability and protect it from the
> heat , we used bamboo chimney and painted it inside with sodium silicate.
> It last long and cheap but the local people do not want to spend money on
> it. Now mostly we replaced with mud block chimneys and the height of the
> chimney was installed 6-7 ft. In Cambodia also we started using mud block
> chimney (for down draft post-combustion Palm Sugar or corn boiling stoves)
> under the roof, cheaper and locally made but above the roof we also use
> metal chimney because the chimney we used is 16 ft that needs to creat a
> good draft and the chimney temperature was around 150 to 180 0C only.
>
> In real field situation, the chimney is a real problem for household
> cooking
> and the failure of the stove programs largely depend on the chimney if the
> kitchen is installed in the ground floor.Metal chimney in many rural areas
> like in mountains of Nepal is quite expensive depending upon the
> thickness,
> if light weight, it worn out within six to 12 months. Sodium silicate or
> other paints don't available in those areas, if provided by some projects
> also not sustainable.
>
> Dampers are used to control the draft but in field condition stove users
> do
> not use it and consume more fuel. Though they were tought how to use and
> when to use? In Jumla, far Western Nepal, it was observed that cooking a
> meal for 9 persons consumed 37.5 kg of wood in staff's quarter. The
> chimney
> was around 30 ft height. Damper was not used during the operation and all
> the fire was diverted to the chimney.
>
> Regards,
>
> K. M. Sulpya
> Cambodia Fuelwood Saving Project
> Cambodia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Stanley" <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
> To: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
> Cc: "'ethos'" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>; <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 4:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimney durability
>
>
>> Dean,
>>
>> I don't know the chemistry of the reaction but by simple observation
>> the brown almost hard resinous coating which so often lines the chimney
>> tends to act as a preservative. Ironically it is the very stuff which a
>> good stove will tend to burn off. Any way of stabilising that compound
>> or group of compounds ?
>>
>> Intuitively it would seem to make sense to try to work with mother
>> nature if one can...
>> Richard
>>
>> Dean Still wrote:
>>
>> >Dear Friends,
>> >
>> >Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint, that
> will
>> >double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are
> starting
>> >to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
>> >doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
>> >enough...
>> >
>> >Best,
>> >
>> >Dean
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Stoves mailing list
>> >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>> >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Stoves mailing list
>> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>>
>>
>
>
>

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Nov 5 20:31:10 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:31:10 -0800
Subject: Fw: [Stoves] Chimney durability
Message-ID: <02ba01c4c3b1$22245290$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

----- Original Message -----
From: "ECOFOGON - PROLENA" <prolena at sdnnic.org.ni>
To: <dstill at epud.net>
Cc: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>; <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>;
<rmiranda at inet.com.br>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimney durability

In Nicaragua we have two types of paintings of the mark FULLER:
1- Painting for boilers and chimneys of black color, for use in interior as
external carbon-based of stone. with the following physical characteristics:
? Viscosity; 70-75 KU.
? Weigh for gallon: 7.43 pounds
? Solids weight: 48.93%
? Solids volume: 50.50%
? Yield: 29 m2 for gallon.

2- Painting with aluminum pigments and resins with silicon that they form
with the ceramic compound high temperatures with the metal forming a single
body. with the following physical characteristics:
? weigh for gallon: 8.94 pounds
? Solids weight: 48.92%
? Solids volume: 37.43%
? Flash point: 50? F
? Yield: 27 m2 for gallon

>X-Sender: rmiranda at inet.com.br@inet.com.br
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1
>Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:09:40 -0200
>To: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>, <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>,
> "'ethos'" <ethos at vrac.iastate.edu>
>From: Rogerio Carneiro de Miranda <rmiranda at inet.com.br>
>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Chimney durability
>Cc: prolena at sdnnic.org.ni

>X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at pitfall.seven.com.br
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ns.sdnnic.org.ni id
MAA03733
>
>Dean:
>
>I believe PROLE?A'/Nicaragua is using a black paint used for boilers, etc
>that can hold up to 800 Celsius (if i am not wrong) to increase chimney
>durability. I don't remember the name or the chemical contents of this
>paint, but Marlyng Buitrago (prolena at sdnnic.org.ni) could tell you more
>details.
>
>Also in order to increase durability (in addition to this paint) PROLE?A
>uses 26 gauge galvanized iron (instead of 28), and it did help.
>
>
>Rog?rio
>
>
>At 14:16 4/11/2004, Dean Still wrote:
>>Dear Friends,
>>
>>Does anyone have information on inexpensive methods, like paint, that will
>>double the working life of a galvanized chimney pipe? Chimneys are
>>starting
>>to wear out after about 5 years in Central America stove projects and
>>doubling the durability would be worth it if the solution was cheap
>>enough...
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Dean
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Stoves mailing list
>>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Nov 5 20:36:48 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:36:48 -0800
Subject: Fw: [Stoves] Light after dark
Message-ID: <02bb01c4c3b1$2232aa70$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Jetter.Jim at epamail.epa.gov>
To: "Jeff Forssell" <jeff.forssell at cfl.se>
Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>; <stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org>; "Venter
Forestry" <ventfory at iafrica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 6:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Stoves] Light after dark

Battery-powered, LED headlamps, sold in camping stores, will light up a
page or sewing machine and will prevent tripping in the darkness.

Jim

|---------+-------------------------------->
| | Jeff Forssell |
| | <jeff.forssell at cfl.se|
| | > |
| | Sent by: |
| | stoves-bounces at listse|
| | rv.repp.org |
| | |
| | |
| | 11/03/2004 04:32 AM |
| | |
|---------+-------------------------------->
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|
|
| To: Venter Forestry <ventfory at iafrica.com>,
STOVES at listserv.repp.org |
| cc:
|
| Subject: RE: [Stoves] Light after dark
|
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

>How much light is
> required for reading at? Parabolic reflection (as with torches) of a
> seemingly insignificant source of light could help to illuminate a
room,

We are usually so spoiled with light that it is hard to imagine the
lighting situation in third world situations. Even a single
high-intensity LED can be better to read with than the common
tincan-wicks-with kerosene.
http://biphome.spray.se/jeff.forssell/korobojDark.jpg
(Not to mention fire risks, kerosene costs and smells)
These LEDs have a very concentrated light output (Some even too narrow!)
so no reflector is needed.

I think the important change in perspective for us is not to think
"light up a room" but "light up a page here and a sewing machine there".
1 Watt can be useful in the later case. In the former it might prevent
tripping in the darkness (which can also be valuable).

This fellow has an interesting project, stimulation of local
entrepreneurs to assemble very simple, very cheap solar chargers.
http://www.biodesign.org.uk/

/Jeff
------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Forssell
Fil.Lic. i Fysik
Nationellt centrum f?r flexibelt l?rande, CFL
0611-55 79 48 (fax: 0611-55 79 80)
070-35 80 306
Box 3024, SE-871 03 H?RN?SAND /Sweden
<http://www.cfl.se/>
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Nov 6 01:30:57 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:30:57 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] African Development Bank newsletter 'Energy and Gender' now
available online
Message-ID: <006401c4c3d3$6324fa20$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Friends

This newsletter concentrates on the role of women in the use of energy and
ahs intersting factoids on the use of woodfuel for various tasks including
the present average mass of wood used per unit output of beer, cassava etc.

The announcement comes to me via Tom Roberts, and engineer working with them
in Tunis.

Regards
Crispin

----- Original Message -----
From: "AfDB_Finesse" <finesse at afdb.org>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 6:35 PM
Subject: Special edition of the ADB FINESSE Africa program newsletter on '
Energy and Gender' now available online

Dear Madam / Sir

I have the pleasure to inform you that a special edition of the ADB FINESSE
Africa program newsletter for the months of September-October 2004, is now
available online. This edition, which was prepared in collaboration with the
International Network on Gender and Sustainable Energy (ENERGIA), focuses on
'Energy and Gender'. It can be accessed at
http://www.afdb.org/about_adb/finesse_newsletter.htm.

An analysis of the articles covered in this edition shows that women are the
main procurers, producers and users of energy at household level in Africa.
Women are also actively involved in energy intensive small-scale industries,
mainly informal food-processing activities. Gender sensitive sustainable
energy interventions will go a long way towards reducing the time and effort
women spend trying to provide energy. For this to be achieved, targeted
capacity building initiatives as well as innovative financing mechanisms
that recognizes women's situation are required.

To learn more on 'Energy and Gender' issues from different parts of Africa,
we encourage you to read this issue.

With best regards,

Alois P. Mhlanga
FINESSE PROGRAM
African Development Bank (PSDU)
BP 323 -- 1002 Tunis Belvedere, Tunisia
Tel. (216) 71 10 3729
Email: a.mhlanga at afdb.org
Website: www.afdb.org

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Sat Nov 6 02:14:06 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 10:14:06 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] African Development Bank newsletter 'Energy and Gender'
now available online
In-Reply-To: <006401c4c3d3$6324fa20$0100a8c0@md>
References: <006401c4c3d3$6324fa20$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <418C87CE.1060503@legacyfound.org>

Thanks Crispin,
Richard

Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>Dear Friends
>
>This newsletter concentrates on the role of women in the use of energy and
>ahs intersting factoids on the use of woodfuel for various tasks including
>the present average mass of wood used per unit output of beer, cassava etc.
>
>The announcement comes to me via Tom Roberts, and engineer working with them
>in Tunis.
>
>Regards
>Crispin
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "AfDB_Finesse" <finesse at afdb.org>
>Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 6:35 PM
>Subject: Special edition of the ADB FINESSE Africa program newsletter on '
>Energy and Gender' now available online
>
>
>Dear Madam / Sir
>
>I have the pleasure to inform you that a special edition of the ADB FINESSE
>Africa program newsletter for the months of September-October 2004, is now
>available online. This edition, which was prepared in collaboration with the
>International Network on Gender and Sustainable Energy (ENERGIA), focuses on
>'Energy and Gender'. It can be accessed at
>http://www.afdb.org/about_adb/finesse_newsletter.htm.
>
>An analysis of the articles covered in this edition shows that women are the
>main procurers, producers and users of energy at household level in Africa.
>Women are also actively involved in energy intensive small-scale industries,
>mainly informal food-processing activities. Gender sensitive sustainable
>energy interventions will go a long way towards reducing the time and effort
>women spend trying to provide energy. For this to be achieved, targeted
>capacity building initiatives as well as innovative financing mechanisms
>that recognizes women's situation are required.
>
>To learn more on 'Energy and Gender' issues from different parts of Africa,
>we encourage you to read this issue.
>
>With best regards,
>
>Alois P. Mhlanga
>FINESSE PROGRAM
>African Development Bank (PSDU)
>BP 323 -- 1002 Tunis Belvedere, Tunisia
>Tel. (216) 71 10 3729
>Email: a.mhlanga at afdb.org
>Website: www.afdb.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>
>
>
>

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Nov 6 09:42:27 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:42:27 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: The dream power plant for the tiny fan
In-Reply-To: <000401c4c1a3$3040ce40$0100a8c0@md>
References: <000401c4c1a3$3040ce40$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <r9ppo0dnh5r7p0ucoc277f33r1u5mcr5pp@4ax.com>

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:46:35 +0200, Crispin wrote:

>
>I just keep thinking that it _must_ be possible to make a TEG from
>dissimilar metals (stacked thermocouples) that will run a small fan.

I think so too, I think the semiconductor tegs are too vulnerable to
over temperature, they also see to have to work in parallel with the
cooking, they do not like temperatures above 200C and as all the heat
flux must pass through the teg and we are talking about conversion
efficiencies of ~5% this is potentially lossy as well as expensive.

Is there a simple way for an artisan crafstman to make a usable teg?

As I said before the most suitable commonly available metals would
seem to be nickel and iron.

I suppose NASA are likely to be the people with knowledge of metallic
tegs as they used them with the heat from decaying radioactive
isotopes to power space probes.
>
>What exactly would the stack look like? Is it a series of horseshoes,
>stacked sheets or what?

I've not seen one but I think you could construct something using
bellville washers stacked to form a chimney with some insulation
filling the wedges formed, the heat would pass through the sides. I
can only suggest that the characteristic would be found by researching
the internal resistance, by checking open circuit voltage and then
applying a load and checking the voltage. Intuitively the current is
dependant on charge carriers migrating across the junction so there
should be a correlation between junction length and current.

Max power will be transmitted when the internal resistance of the
stack equals the resistance of the load. How on earth you would figure
out how to match this internal resistance, the load resistance and the
required power I don't know. Nor can I figure how wide the distance
between the cold sink and hot source must be. Again intuitively you
want this as small as possible but with no heat transmission to the
adjacent metal, hence the need for thermal and electrical insulation
in between, because all the heat flux should pass from hot to cold.

We need a physics graduate to chip in.

I wonder if a series arrangement would be better so that all the heat
remains usable, the trouble is it might reduce heat transfer through
the pot.

I have seen enameled jewelry and have a vitreous enameled mug and flue
pipe, I just wonder if the same techniques could be used to form a
nickel iron concertina with enough junctions and capacity to form a
spiral which could be attacked to the bottom of a pot, with the
vitreous enamel making both a seal and an insulation between the
junctions. I have seen some small chains made by artisan craftsmen so
with the addition of a spot welder it may be possible.

I was tempted to experiment until I realised my digital multi meter
could not even reliably measure the oc voltage from a K type
thermocouple heated from ambient to 35C.

Again the amount of intricate work involved makes the little solar
charger still seem the most elegant solution, yet the teg potentially
removes the need for a nicad cell.

AJH

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Nov 6 13:14:18 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 19:14:18 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: The dream power plant for the tiny fan
In-Reply-To: <r9ppo0dnh5r7p0ucoc277f33r1u5mcr5pp@4ax.com>
References: <000401c4c1a3$3040ce40$0100a8c0@md>
<r9ppo0dnh5r7p0ucoc277f33r1u5mcr5pp@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <118qo0le5gd9gshhee9d0r0s11g6dvdtud@4ax.com>

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:42:27 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:

>
>Is there a simple way for an artisan crafstman to make a usable teg?
>
>As I said before the most suitable commonly available metals would
>seem to be nickel and iron.

I left out some initial calculations from a google:

Material Seebeck Coeff. *
Iron? 19 micro Volts/deg C @ 0C
Nickel -15

Assuming this is somewhere near linear in the range 0 to 400C:

So if the water in the pot is the cold sink and boiling and we have a
flame of 800C but the boundary layer halves what the thermo couple see
then we have a delta t of 300C to play with. If my interpretation is
correct we should have 34micro Volts times 300 output per junction, we
are looking for 1.25V , suggesting 123 couples or 246 junctions,
fiddly.

AJH?

From crispin at newdawn.sz Sat Nov 6 13:27:42 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 21:27:42 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: The dream power plant for the tiny fan
Message-ID: <003901c4c436$b41b90c0$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Andrew

I need basin info on this. I understand that the junction produces
electricity without a thermal gradient. Is this correct?

That K-Band probe should give you about 75mV I think. Not much but it is
only one junction.

I have not heard of Belleville washers. Perhaps we know them by a different
name.

How about a stack of stainless steel and iron? I can afford to put together
quite a stack of these, perhaps 0.5mm thick. They could just get coated
with soot though I suppose it will conduct.

I am still stuck at the stage of trying to work out what gets hot. Do I
have to cool one end of the wire?

I was thinking that I make U-shaped wires and stack them up in a pile of U's
with the ends spotwelded together so there is a circuit going back and forth
and upwards from U to U. Then heat the ends and keep the U body cool.
Right or not?

If I stack pennies and nickles and heat it (no cooling at any point) will I
get a voltage top to bottom? I understand that the power comes from heat
absorbed making electrons move. Perhaps there is no cooling required.

The small motor, being a coil, has a pretty low resistance so getting a
match from the resistance of the pile should not be all that intimidating.

Thanks
Crispin

PS Aren't there chemicals or plastic that gives off light when heated?

++++++++++=
----- Original Message -----
From: <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: The dream power plant for the tiny fan

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:46:35 +0200, Crispin wrote:

>
>I just keep thinking that it _must_ be possible to make a TEG from
>dissimilar metals (stacked thermocouples) that will run a small fan.

[snip]
AJH

From jmdavies at telkomsa.net Sat Nov 6 13:30:03 2004
From: jmdavies at telkomsa.net (John Davies)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 21:30:03 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Horozintal Chimneys
Message-ID: <002401c4c437$2ea1af50$7e5bef9b@jhon92z4a514j6>

Greetings,
Some interesting theory on chimneys has surfaced recently. I would like to
thank Crispin for making the spreadsheet available, there is much food for
thought in the different ideas shared.

I would like to share my experiences relating to Horozintal chimneys and
combustion control which was found by trial and error. Please take note that
the stove used was my "gassifier coal stove. " which uses updraft air flow
with secondry air admitted to a burner above the fuel bed. The fuel is top
lit which pyrolyses from top to bottom, reducing the bitumenous coal to coke
and then burns the coke to ash. The chimney draft and combustion rate is
controlled by only one lever which controls the heated secondary air flow.
Trial and error showed that the ideal chimney height was 9 ft ( 2.7m )
using a 3 inch diameter pipe ( 75mm )

I installed the stove in my home for space heating and trials during the
winter of 2003. Not wanting to take the chimney through the roof, which
would have required adherence to insurance specifications and require
professional installation, I decided to take the chimney outside through a
small window , replacing the small glass pane in the top corner of a window
unit, with a steel sheet with chimney hole. A roof overhang of about 5 ft
had to be passed. The result was as follows. From the stove outlet, the
chimney travels verticly for about 3 ft ( 1 m ) . It then travels on an
upward slope ( about 20 degrees from horozontal ) for about 5 ft ( 1.5m )
horozontally, ant then takes a vertical direction again. It was installed to
give the standard 9 ft vertical height above the stove outlet.

The fun started. The normal smokeless light-up was gone. The draft was so
poor that the kindling did not produce enough heat to light the coal under
it. I have no temperature measuring instruments, so the touch method had to
be used. The initial vertical pipe appeared to have a constant temperature,
too hot to hold. At the end of the 20deg horozintal section the pipe was
only abour 40 C. ( 104 F )

LESSON 1. A HOROZINTAL CHIMNEY SECTION RADIATES OUT MANY TIMES THE HEAT
OF A VERTICAL SECTION. ( THIS PHENOMON COULD BE USED IN RADIATING PANELS
DESIGNED TO USE EXCESS CHIMNEY TEMPERATURE/HEAT FOR SPACE HEATING )

The next step was to insulate the horozintal section. This duly done, the
temperature loss was reduced to acceptable limits. But the draft was still
to low, the stove could be operated, but with smoke, where the norm is
smokeless, and with reduced heat output.

LESSON 2. HOROZINTAL SECTIONS CAUSE GREAT FLOW RESISTANCE.

Step 3 was to increase the chimney height until normal combustion
characteristics were recovered. The chimney height had increased by about 5
ft. ( 1.5m )

LESSON 3 FOR SECTIONS THAT ARE 20 DEG OFF HOROZINTAL, THE VERTICAL HEIGHT
OF THE CHIMNEY NEEDS TO BE INCREASED BY THE SAME NUMBER OF HORIZINTAL UNITS.

I suspect that a perfectly horizontal section would require an even greater
increase in height, coupled with a greater heat loss.

I hope that this may be of use to you,
Happy stoving.

John Davies.

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Nov 6 13:42:51 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 19:42:51 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: The dream power plant for the tiny fan
In-Reply-To: <003901c4c436$b41b90c0$0100a8c0@md>
References: <003901c4c436$b41b90c0$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <s7aqo0tsibhiep5cp2sij5pcm96ntl4ahv@4ax.com>

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 21:27:42 +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>I need basic info on this. I understand that the junction produces
>electricity without a thermal gradient. Is this correct?

Our posts to the list were in the ether simultaneously.

No, as with any heat engine there has to be a hot source and a cold
sink, heat flowing between them does the work (creating electricity)
>
>That K-Band probe should give you about 75mV I think. Not much but it is
>only one junction.

You need to specify the difference in temperature, are you sure you
mean milli rather than micro Volts per degree C?

http://www.fact-index.com/t/th/thermocouple.html

suggest a K type to be 41 micro Volts/deg C, this is chrome-alumel.
both alloys with high percentages of nickel.
>
>I have not heard of Belleville washers. Perhaps we know them by a different
>name.

It's a spring washer formed by stamping the washer into a flat
truncated cone.

see
http://www.mech.uwa.edu.au/DANotes/springs/intro/discSpringsBIG.gif

but alternate nickel and iron, fill the spaces with insulation without
ruining thermal contact at the edges and have the flue gas come up the
central hole without the tensioning device interfering with flow.
>
>How about a stack of stainless steel and iron? I can afford to put together
>quite a stack of these, perhaps 0.5mm thick. They could just get coated
>with soot though I suppose it will conduct.

You will have to try differing metals and see, if you have a spot
welder to make test junctions and a high impedance Voltmeter able to
discriminate a few micro Volts you may find something, otoh chromel
and alumel may be available to you.
>
>I am still stuck at the stage of trying to work out what gets hot. Do I
>have to cool one end of the wire?

Yes, ambient air can be the cool side and the furnace the hot side,
though I am advocating furnace one side and boiling water the other to
make use of all the heat.
>
>I was thinking that I make U-shaped wires and stack them up in a pile of U's
>with the ends spotwelded together so there is a circuit going back and forth
>and upwards from U to U. Then heat the ends and keep the U body cool.
>Right or not?

Sort of but I think you have a series of Vees, with the legs of the
dissimilar metals, and keep one of the joints hot and the other cold.
See my later calculations for the number of junctions, 250 odd unless
I am mistaken.
>
>If I stack pennies and nickles and heat it (no cooling at any point) will I
>get a voltage top to bottom?

yes if your pennies are copper and nickels nickel, alloying seems to
produce different Seebeck properties.

>I understand that the power comes from heat
>absorbed making electrons move.

Yes and in one bar they would just move from hot to cold and stop once
the potential was established, it is the change in metal between hot
and cold junctions that allows this potential to drive a current.

> Perhaps there is no cooling required.

Yes there must always be a difference in temperature and the heat must
flow from hot to cold.

>
>PS Aren't there chemicals or plastic that gives off light when heated?

Yes this is what limestone, thorium and photo luminance is all about.

AJH

From tmiles at trmiles.com Sat Nov 6 14:56:48 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:56:48 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] African Development Bank newsletter 'Energy and Gender'
now available online
References: <006401c4c3d3$6324fa20$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <00db01c4c444$803da3c0$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

Crispin,

Good reference. I found it a few days ago when I was updating part of the
Stoves website. I put a link to it on the Gender and Economic Development
page along with the WHO statement on Indoor Air Pollution for Women's Day,
October 14, 2004 (ITDG)
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/GenderEcDev/GenderEcDev.html

It's also worth looking at previous versions of the ADB FINESSE newsletter.

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispin at newdawn.sz>
To: "Stoves List" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 11:30 PM
Subject: [Stoves] African Development Bank newsletter 'Energy and Gender'
now available online

> Dear Friends
>
> This newsletter concentrates on the role of women in the use of energy and
> ahs intersting factoids on the use of woodfuel for various tasks including
> the present average mass of wood used per unit output of beer, cassava
> etc.
>
> The announcement comes to me via Tom Roberts, and engineer working with
> them
> in Tunis.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "AfDB_Finesse" <finesse at afdb.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 6:35 PM
> Subject: Special edition of the ADB FINESSE Africa program newsletter on '
> Energy and Gender' now available online
>
>
> Dear Madam / Sir
>
> I have the pleasure to inform you that a special edition of the ADB
> FINESSE
> Africa program newsletter for the months of September-October 2004, is now
> available online. This edition, which was prepared in collaboration with
> the
> International Network on Gender and Sustainable Energy (ENERGIA), focuses
> on
> 'Energy and Gender'. It can be accessed at
> http://www.afdb.org/about_adb/finesse_newsletter.htm.
>
> An analysis of the articles covered in this edition shows that women are
> the
> main procurers, producers and users of energy at household level in
> Africa.
> Women are also actively involved in energy intensive small-scale
> industries,
> mainly informal food-processing activities. Gender sensitive sustainable
> energy interventions will go a long way towards reducing the time and
> effort
> women spend trying to provide energy. For this to be achieved, targeted
> capacity building initiatives as well as innovative financing mechanisms
> that recognizes women's situation are required.
>
> To learn more on 'Energy and Gender' issues from different parts of
> Africa,
> we encourage you to read this issue.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Alois P. Mhlanga
> FINESSE PROGRAM
> African Development Bank (PSDU)
> BP 323 -- 1002 Tunis Belvedere, Tunisia
> Tel. (216) 71 10 3729
> Email: a.mhlanga at afdb.org
> Website: www.afdb.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>

From tmiles at trmiles.com Sat Nov 6 15:38:54 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:38:54 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: Partnership for Clean Indoor Air Bulletin: Issue 1
Message-ID: <016201c4c449$0e0fa6e0$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

A Must Read!

The PCIA Bulletin can be downloaded at the PCIAOnline Resource page.
http://www.pciaonline.net/resources.cfm

Join PCIAOnline and get the newsletter directly
http://www.pciaonline.net

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: PCIAonline
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:49 PM
Subject: Partnership for Clean Indoor Air Bulletin: Issue 1

Dear Partners,

We are very pleased to announce the publication of the first PCIA Bulletin! This quarterly publication provides information on the activities of the Partnership for Clean Indoor Air (PCIA) and its Partners around the world, and is intended to increase awareness and action on indoor air pollution, household energy and health. Regular features will include spotlights on PCIA partners, feature articles, and recent achievements and advances in household energy, indoor air pollution, and health.

This first issue includes articles on:

* The first 11 organizations to receive grants from U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for household energy and health pilots.

* PCIA activities in China, and USEPA's recent visit.

* Technology and methodology updates, including the UCB particle monitor and ARECOP's participatory methodology.

* New resources such as household energy, indoor air pollution and health country overviews.

* PCIA logo competition. Don't miss this chance to apply your creative talents!

We hope the PCIA Bulletin will be an important source of information for PCIA partners and others working to improve the lives of millions of women and children worldwide. For future issues, partners are encouraged to submit updates on your work, announcements of new resources of interest to this community, and feedback on what information would be most useful and interesting for you to receive through the Bulletin. For more detailed information on the topics highlighted in the Bulletin, please visit www.pciaonline.org.

Please send this along to other institutions and individuals you think would benefit from this information, and encourage them to join the partnership through the website to receive future bulletins automatically.

We welcome your comments and suggestions. For more information please contact us at pciaonline at yahoo.com.

Lutfiyah Ahmed

Clean Energy Group

Winrock International

1621 N. Kent Street

Suite 1200

Arlington, VA 22209 USA

+ (703) 525-9430

www.winrock.org

From tombreed at comcast.net Sat Nov 6 17:03:46 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (Tom Reed)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:03:46 -0000
Subject: [Stoves] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device
References: <3.0.32.20041017121733.00998d10@pop.btl.net>
Message-ID: <000401c4c453$fdcbfb70$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>

Dear all:

Good, but not quite LPG (Liquefied petroleum gases, primarily propane and
butane). Methane has roughly 50% more energy than digestor gas, but
vaporized propane has 400% more and 4000% more when liquefied (boiling point
~-25C). Normally methane can't be liquefied at room temperature (a
permanent gas), but maybe the liquefiable CO2 component might change the
properties, maybe forming hydrates. It would be useful to have a PVT
diagram for digestor gases.

Volunteers?

Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>; <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 12:18 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device

>
> (Flipping this to Gas list as well -- being as this is about gas making)
>
> Posting this with all respect to A. D. Karve -- who in my opinion is the
> brightest beacon of pratical solutions on this mail list for all we here
> living in 3rd world.
>
> Now -- this posting should get a few gears engaged!
>
> Quoting A.D. Karve:
>
> "The gas produced by this
> system has thus almost the same calorific value as LPG. It burns without
> smoke or soot, producing an almost invisible bluish flame similar to
> that of LPG."
>
>
> As by now a few stover list members might be scratching their collective
> minds -- along these lines:
>
> Gee -- gas production for cook stoves is a fine methology to avoid death
> due to smoke inhalation. Instead of harvesting/finding biomass for fuel --
> than intensive fuel conditioning -- designing tricky stoves that need
> constant attention to burn smoke free -- still requiring chimney and vents
> -- just grow some sugar cane!
>
> so -- for now -- "Focussing" on cane juice as portable fuel for A.D.s
> digester.
>
>
> OK -- how do really poor people make cane juice??
>
> Traditionally -- here in Central America:
>
> Hand extraction of cane juice involves boring two holes in a tree -- the
> upper one has a moveable stick inserted -- the lower a fatter -- jammed in
> hard -- not moveable -- the "anvil" inserted.
>
> A stalk of cane is placed between these two -- the top stick being raised
> -- then pressed down -- squeezing out juice -- this is repeated down the
> length of cane. The juices collected below.
>
> If we can get A. D. to enter into discussion -- some questions need be
asked.
>
> 1: Will fresh cane juice be a good "food" for your digester?
>
> re:
>
> Because the
> material to be fed into the biogas plant consists mainly of starch and
> sugary material like sugarcane juice or fruit pulp,
>
> 2: How much cane juice would be required per day to supply for normal
> cooking needs?
>
> (I self answer that based on information A.D has sent -- below)
>
> 3: Is it possible that the residual stalk -- which when extracted in this
> inefficient manner - -and still contains much sugar juice -- can also be
> added to digester?? (Could digestion of begasse further enhance gas
product
> out?)
>
> Re:
>
> "Our studies also indicated that
> the gas yield could be increased by using combinations of feedstock
> materials. We are now looking at additives such as micronutrients,
> nitrogen, phosphorous compounds etc."
>
> Bagasse is very mineral rich.
>
> 4: The residue after digestion -- you note is a valid fertilizer agent --
> is it a possible animal feed as well??
>
> Re:
>
> "The effluent slurry generated daily by the plant
> is just a couple of litres. It can be used as manure for plants growing
> around the house."
>
> 5: Source for bacteria required??
>
> Self answer from notes below:
>
> We do not use any special bacteria. To begin with we mix
> about 10 kg cattle dung and water and pour the slurry into the
> fermenter.
>
> and:
>
> However, to make the system more readily acceptable to the
> users, we shall have to produce the culture ourselves and give it to the
> users along with the biogas plant.
>
> 6: Is this device difficult to build??
>
> Self answer:
>
> A schoolgirl submitted a working model of it in a statewide
> science project competition and won the first prize in the state.
>
> ***************************
>
> Ok -- found this to self-answer #2:
>
> "1kg of sugar or starch yields about 400 litres of methane,
> within a period of 6 to 8 hours. This quantity is enough for cooking one
> meal for 5 to 6 persons."
>
> So that would mean around 12 kilograms of cane using the crude extraction
> methology above -- quite labor instensive -- but then -- a small hand
> operated rool type crusher could be used by numerous families to save much
> labor.
>
> You can see example of such at:
>
> http://www.rajeximp.com/products/sc.html
>
> I have acquired and operated model "A" -- powered by a two HP electric
> engine -- for well over on year now. When in use we process 1400 kilo of
> cane stalk per day -- 3 workers.
>
> This at better efficiency of juice extraction than the above -- but
keeping
> a safety in guestimation factor there -- say the same --
>
> 1400/12 -- sufficient per day to supply fuel for 117 meals to be cooked.
>
> At village level this would mean each household would collect by container
> the required amount of cane juice -- daily -- for their needs in their own
> individual digesters.
>
> So yes -- "portable-fuel"
>
>
> *********************************************
>
> To bring others on this list up to speed:
>
>
> Posted to this list originally:
>
> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:48:03 +0530
> Reply-To: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
>
> Extracted of importance:
>
> I have developed a highly compact biogas plant, having a volume of just
> 400 litres. It operates on waste starch (spoilt grain, nonedible seed of
> various species, oilcake of non-edible oilseeds, rhizomes of banana,
canna,
> nutgrass, arums, flour swept from the floor of a flour mill etc.) and
> produces about 800 litres of gas from just 1 kg starch. It produces daily
> just 5 litres of effluent, which can just be thrown at the base of any
tree,
> or applied to the vegetable bed in the backyard. The retention time of
dung
> in the dung-based biogas fermenter is 6 weeks, while that of starch is
only
> 6 hours, which is why the volume of the fermenter could be reduced. The
> biogas produced from starch has about 60% methane by weight, while that
> produced from cattle dung has only 25% methane by weight. As a result,
even
> the 800 litres produced by my biogas plant is enough for cooking the meal
of
> a family.
> We are trying to commercialise this new biogas fermenter. It costs
only
> US$30 as against US$250 for the conventional biogas fermenter.
> Yours A.D.Karve
>
> ***********************************
>
> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 05:50:59 +0530
> Reply-To: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
>
> "Extracted":
>
> As far as the biogas fermenter is concerned, it is a small version of the
> standard moving dome biogas plant, a very simple contraption
> consisting of two drums, telescoping into one another. the outer drum is
> open at the top and the inner one is open at its bottom. The outer drum is
> filled with the material to be fermented and the inner drum is lowered
into
> it. A tap at the top of the inner drum is kept open while lowering the
drum
> into the outer one, and when it has been completely inserted into the
outer
> drum, the tap is closed. The gas accumulates in the inner drum which gets
> lifted up due to increased buoyancy. (If a girl falls accidentally into
> water, she should not remove her dress because the air caught in the dress
> acts like a buoy :-))The inner drum is provided with a tap at the top,
> through which the biogas can be led to the burner. Both the drums have a
> capacity of approximately 200 litres.
> A.D.Karve
>
> ******************************
>
> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 05:58:20 +0530
> Reply-To: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
>
> Several members asked me to provide more details about the compact
> biogas plant being developed by us. I give below the latest status of
> this technology.
>
> The biogas plant consists of two cylindrical vessels telescoping into
> one another. The larger vessel, called the fermenter, has a total
> internal volume of about 500 lit. A drum having diameter of 85 cm and
> height of 85 cm would have the desired volume. The smaller vessel, which
> telescopes into the larger one, serves as the gas-holder. The diameter
> of the gas holder is about 2 cm smaller than that of the fermenter. The
> fermenter vessel is provided with appropriate inlet and outlet pipes for
> introducing the feedstock into it and for removal of spent slurry from
> it. The gas holder is provided with a gas tap, through which the gas is
> led to the burner. This system uses starchy or sugary material as
> feedstock. 1kg of sugar or starch yields about 400 litres of methane,
> within a period of 6 to 8 hours. This quantity is enough for cooking one
> meal for 5 to 6 persons. The biogas produced by this system contains
> theoretically about equal volumes of carbondioxide and methane, but in
> reality, it turned out to have less than 5% carbondioxide. This
> phenomenon is explained by the fact that carbon dioxide dissolves in the
> water in the fermenter vessel and diffuses out of it through the 1 cm
> gap between the fermenter and the gas holder. The gas produced by this
> system has thus almost the same calorific value as LPG. It burns without
> smoke or soot, producing an almost invisible bluish flame similar to
> that of LPG.
>
> Several prototypes, in operation for more than a year, have been
> successfully tested using various feedstocks. The potential candidate
> feedstocks, namely rain damaged or insect damaged grain, flour spilled
> on the floor of a flour mill, oilcake from non-edible oilseeds, seed of
> various tree species, non-edible rhizomes (banana, arums, dioscoreas),
> leftover food, spoiled and misshapen fruits, non-edible and wild fruits,
> spoilt fruit juice, etc. are readily available in rural areas. This
> system is much easier to operate than the dung based biogas plant,
> because of the relatively small quantities of feedstock and effluent
> slurry to be handled. The effluent slurry generated daily by the plant
> is just a couple of litres. It can be used as manure for plants growing
> around the house. The 500 litre biogas plant, mass produced from moulded
> plastic drums, would cost about Rs. 3,500 (US$ 78). The smallest
> cattle-dung based domestic biogas plant costs about Rs. 12,000 (US$267).
> It requires daily 40kg dung, and owing to the retention period of almost
> 40 days, such plants have a minimum capacity of 2000 litres. They
> generate daily 80 to 100 litres of effluent slurry. Daily handling of
> such large quantities of feedstock and effluent is considered to be
> arduous and bothersome by users.
> Preliminary studies indicated that the amount of biogas produced and the
> retention period varied from feedstock to feedstock and from season to
> season. Also, when the feedstock was changed from one form to another,
> the system took a few days to stabilise. Our studies also indicated that
> the gas yield could be increased by using combinations of feedstock
> materials. We are now looking at additives such as micronutrients,
> nitrogen, phosphorous compounds etc., which might bacterial action and
> yield more gas at a faster rate. Since the users would depend mainly
> upon locally available feedstock, field trials are essential to
> determine the retention periods and gas yield for different raw materials.
> Many people in India, who read my article in a local neuspaper, copied
> our design and have started to use this biogas plant in their
> households. A schoolgirl submitted a working model of it in a statewide
> science project competition and won the first prize in the state. A
> company supplying science equipment to educational institute wants to
> manufacture models (50 litre capacity) for supply to schools and colleges.
> We have supplied 200 litre models to 10 voluntary agencies in different
> regions for demonstrating this technology to villagers in their
> respective areas. This model is meant for areas where the main diet is
> rice. This model yields enough gas to operate a pressure cooker to cook
> rice, beans, vegetables or meat for a family of five. In areas, where
> the main diet of the people consists of unleavened flat bread, somewhat
> like the tortilla, each piece of bread is made individually, and
> therefore the stove has to be in operation for a longer time. In such
> cases, we recommend the five hundred litre model.
>
> A.D.Karve
>
> ***************************
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:06:52 +0530
> Reply-To: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
> Sender: The Stoves Discussion List <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
>
> Dear Mr. Henson,
> The fermenter vessel contains almost 200 litres of liquid. When you
> pour a few litres of feedstock slurry into the biogas plant, a
> corresponding quantity comes out of the outlet pipe. Because the
> material to be fed into the biogas plant consists mainly of starch and
> sugary material like sugarcane juice or fruit pulp, the slurry consists
> almost exclusively of water with a little suspended matter in it. In the
> case of cattle dung or municipal soild waste, the slurry is thicker,
> because the feedstock material contains a lot of cellulose and lignin,
> which are not as easily digestible as starch or sugar. Because the
> effluent also consists of bacteria, and because the quantum of the
> effluent is very small (just a few litres), we mix the starch powder or
> fruit pulp into the effluent slurry and recycle it. We are currently
> advocating that the feedstock be fed into the biogas plant once in the
> morning and once again in the evening. Because the reaction time is
> short, one can theoretically have a continuous drip feed, but the
> relatively high viscosity of the feedstock may cause mechanical problems
> like clogging of the dripper. It may also be theoretically possible to
> produce alcohol and methane simultaneously, but we haven't looked for
> alcohol. The system however runs on vinegar, which is the oxidised
> product of alcohol. The system is sensitive to temperature. Here in Pune
> it is not as cold as in the US, but at present the night temperatures
> touch 10 degrees C. This lowering of the night temperature has reduced
> the gas outflow considerably. However, it would not be difficult to
> cover the drums with an insulating material and conserve the heat
> produced by the bacterial process. I t would however add to the cost of
> the system. We do not use any special bacteria. To begin with we mix
> about 10 kg cattle dung and water and pour the slurry into the
> fermenter. However, to make the system more readily acceptable to the
> users, we shall have to produce the culture ourselves and give it to the
> users along with the biogas plant. Dung is a dirty and smelly material.
> In the initial phase, we add daily just 200 grams of flour. When gas
> starts emanating, we test it for its combustibility. We get combustible
> gas in 7 to 15 days.After the methane production has started, we
> increase the daily dose of 1 kg starch at each feeding. The inlet and
> outlet pipes have a diameter of about 5 cm.
> A.D.Karve
>
>
>
>
> ***************************
>
> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 19:38:38 +0530
> Reply-To: adkarve <adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
>
>
>
> Dear Mr. Manar,
> please tell me what is meant by AD, VS and TS.
>
> I wish to correct the figures of oilcake used and biogas generated. It
> takes daily about 30 kg oilcake to produce 15 cubic meters of gas.But this
> gas consists of almost pure methane. It is not a case of co-generation,
but
> direct fermentation. Cattle dung was used only initially as a source of
> bacteria, but for more than a month, they are using only oilcake.
>
> Let me also correct a fallacy that is current among scientists and laymen
> alike. The fact, that methanogenic bacteria are found in the excreta of
> animals, led people to think that dung was their food. It is not. One
> should take the advice of Mark Twain, namely not to allow school to
> interfer with one's education, seriously. These bacteria live in our
> intestines and eat whatever we eat. They are swept out of the intestine
> along with undigested food and therefore they are found in the faeces.
> Because dung is not the food of these bacteria, they have to take the help
> of several other species of faecal bacteria, which break down the dung
into
> sugars and organic acids, before the methanogenic bacteria can convert
> them into methane. As a result, the quantity of methane produced from
dung
> (and distillery effluent, paper factory waste, municipal solid waste
etc.)
> is very low in proportion to the feedstock used, and secondly, it also
> takes a lot of time.
> Mr. Malar wanted to know the production potential of oilcake to methane.
It
> is stated in the standard textbooks on biogas technology, that 1 kg of
> starch or sugar produces about 800 litres of biogas, out of which about
400
> litres are methane. In our biogas plants, the reaction time of the
> starch-to-methane process is 8 hours. Theoretically, the product should
> also contain equal volume of carbon dioxide, but in the system that we are
> using, the carbon dioxide dissolves in the water in the fermenter and
> diffuses out of the fermenter through the gap between the fermenter vessel
> and the moving dome. After seeing the nalysis of our biogas, somebody
> suggested that we could use our gas for a driving a car. We do not have
the
> compressor to put the gas into a cylinder, but we operated a petrol driven
> portable electricity generator for about two hours, using just the biogas
> produced from oilcake.
> Yours
> Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
> Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
> Pune, India.
>
>
> **************************************
>
> rom: Carefreeland at aol.com
> Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 03:46:00 EDT
> Subject: Re: [STOVES] Does the methane flame travel back?
> To: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN, stoves at listserv.repp.org
>
> "extracted"
>
> Methane may also
> explode, as in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine, if it is
mixed
> with the appropriate quantity of oxygen. But under the anaerobic
conditions
> under which methane is produced and stored, it would not explode or burn
as
> long as it is inside the gas holder or inside the fermenter.
> You also asked me if agricultural crop residues could be used for
producing
> methane instead of making charcoal. Unfortunately, the anaerobic bacteria
> cannot digest lignin. Woody and lignified crop residues like cotton
stalks,
> sugarcane leaves or wheat straw have to be first decomposed by aerobic
> organisms. The digested mass is then fed into a biogas digester. This is
> called two stage fermentation. It is used for agricultural residues and
also
> for municipal solid waste, but not in a domestic methane fermenter,
because
> the added cost of the extra fermenter and the extra space required by the
> system.
>
> The residual slurry of a biogas fermenter is a good organic source of
plant
> nutrients, because the process of methane formation removes CO2 and CH4
from
> the biomass. Because of the selectinve removal of these elements form the
> biomass, the other constituents such a N,P,K,Ca, Fe, etc. get
concentrated
> in residual slurry.
>
> Now -- for those on the Gas list that have made it down this far -- what
do
> you believe is the practical economic viability of converting abandoned
> sugar factory plants into centralized gas production facilities for
further
> distribution??
>
>
> Peter Singfield -- in Belize
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Sun Nov 7 01:25:02 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 09:25:02 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane
digestion device
In-Reply-To: <000401c4c453$fdcbfb70$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
References: <3.0.32.20041017121733.00998d10@pop.btl.net>
<000401c4c453$fdcbfb70$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <418DCDCE.1020709@legacyfound.org>

Tom et al,

What does efficiency matter, if the source is free to the average
citisen of the planet ?

We very much enjoyed this relatively inefficient biogas for four years
at our comfortable urban houusehold in Arusha Tanzania, refilling the
2,5 mtr dia. digester once a week with the wastes of five cows--six or
seven if it was the holidays or friends were visiting. The issue of
thermal efficiency pales when considering that the resource was free.
(And one would have to addin of course the ongoing harvest of
incredible vegetables and fruits that came off the garden, which was fed
by the effluent.)
What AD is into, promises far wider application of this basic comcept to
a far wider audience-- and again as long as the resource is free or
nearly so, off the table scraps as it were, it remains far more
efficient than any other fuel we may opt for.

This polemic applies of course only to the household or village at the
point of supply, and not a more institutionalised or commerical setting
but it is worth keeping in mind if you are targetting the real
population of the globe outside the (increasingly) western island of the
US of the Americas.

Richard Stanley
Mzungu nusu

>
>

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Sun Nov 7 07:11:02 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:11:02 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane
digestion device
References: <3.0.32.20041017121733.00998d10@pop.btl.net><000401c4c453$fdcbfb70$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
<418DCDCE.1020709@legacyfound.org>
Message-ID: <001a01c4c4cb$bae68050$259a0a40@kevin>

Dear Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Stanley" <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device

> Tom et al,
>
> What does efficiency matter, if the source is free to the average
> citisen of the planet ?
>
For a given weekly output of biogass, the efficiency of conversion of the
biomass resource to methane, and the efficiency or biogas utilization are
very important for these reasons:

1: The capital cost of the facility can be reduced.
2: The space required can be reduced
3: Less biomass is required
4: Less effort is required to find biomass, or, where it is animal sourced,
fewer animals are required.
5: Less time and effort is required to load biomass and remove waste from
reactor.
6: An efficient system may be practical where an inefficient system
wouldn't. (For example, it it was fueled with dung, and vegetative waste,
there may be enough feedstock available if the system is efficient, but not
enough for an inefficient system.
7: With a system of a given size and where biomass resource is not limiting,
then an efficient system will provide sufficient biogas for more people.

Best wishes,

Kevin

> We very much enjoyed this relatively inefficient biogas for four years
> at our comfortable urban houusehold in Arusha Tanzania, refilling the
> 2,5 mtr dia. digester once a week with the wastes of five cows--six or
> seven if it was the holidays or friends were visiting. The issue of
> thermal efficiency pales when considering that the resource was free.
> (And one would have to addin of course the ongoing harvest of
> incredible vegetables and fruits that came off the garden, which was fed
> by the effluent.)
> What AD is into, promises far wider application of this basic comcept to
> a far wider audience-- and again as long as the resource is free or
> nearly so, off the table scraps as it were, it remains far more
> efficient than any other fuel we may opt for.
>
> This polemic applies of course only to the household or village at the
> point of supply, and not a more institutionalised or commerical setting
> but it is worth keeping in mind if you are targetting the real
> population of the globe outside the (increasingly) western island of the
> US of the Americas.
>
> Richard Stanley
> Mzungu nusu
>
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Sun Nov 7 11:15:23 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 19:15:23 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane
digestion device
In-Reply-To: <001a01c4c4cb$bae68050$259a0a40@kevin>
References: <3.0.32.20041017121733.00998d10@pop.btl.net><000401c4c453$fdcbfb70$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
<418DCDCE.1020709@legacyfound.org>
<001a01c4c4cb$bae68050$259a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <418E582B.6030202@legacyfound.org>

Kevin,
Thanks for your elucidation: Its obvious enough to you and I perhaps for
an industrialised environment but to Apu Banda, in Ambepussa it remains
another story.
Apu has more than one cow per person already and with five kids
assigned, gathering the dung from one more animal unit means little in
terms of labor efficiency.
His "Facility" is a few oil drums banded together with scrap wire, or a
beatup, tar-lined and inverted water tank in a hand dug pit. His space
is open and a few more or less square feet do not really matter (didd
you ever squeeze into a matatu always one more person is the rule not
the exception. What Apu needs is nto greater efficiency bu greater
access to something basic and functional first, He has nearly zero for
"capital outlays" and no accessto low cost loan schemes. And he is 90%
of the people you are dealing with ---if and again if---you are
concerned about a mass market in the real world.
If the development problem were boundup in calcualtions of efficiencies
and rudimentary economics the problems would have been solved long ago.
Its not that I am ignoring the need for efficiency but that I amd
trrying tto convey to you the need tto a closer look at the real
problems of access, affordability, appropriateness and above all design
which encourages local control and responsibility.
This is the sticky stuff of development. That one develops a better
gasifier or biogas digester is all well and good but it has to be
better as well, in terms of the above criteria. Measure the efficiency
of your stove on-site with the users, over some yama choma. Thats where
it is measured. Thats why, in a parallel manner, AD's work has so much
value : It is developed and vetted by and within the culture.
Richard

Kevin Chisholm wrote:

>Dear Richard
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Richard Stanley" <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device
>
>
>
>
>>Tom et al,
>>
>>What does efficiency matter, if the source is free to the average
>>citisen of the planet ?
>>
>>
>>
>For a given weekly output of biogass, the efficiency of conversion of the
>biomass resource to methane, and the efficiency or biogas utilization are
>very important for these reasons:
>
>1: The capital cost of the facility can be reduced.
>2: The space required can be reduced
>3: Less biomass is required
>4: Less effort is required to find biomass, or, where it is animal sourced,
>fewer animals are required.
>5: Less time and effort is required to load biomass and remove waste from
>reactor.
>6: An efficient system may be practical where an inefficient system
>wouldn't. (For example, it it was fueled with dung, and vegetative waste,
>there may be enough feedstock available if the system is efficient, but not
>enough for an inefficient system.
>7: With a system of a given size and where biomass resource is not limiting,
>then an efficient system will provide sufficient biogas for more people.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
>>We very much enjoyed this relatively inefficient biogas for four years
>>at our comfortable urban houusehold in Arusha Tanzania, refilling the
>>2,5 mtr dia. digester once a week with the wastes of five cows--six or
>>seven if it was the holidays or friends were visiting. The issue of
>>thermal efficiency pales when considering that the resource was free.
>>(And one would have to addin of course the ongoing harvest of
>>incredible vegetables and fruits that came off the garden, which was fed
>>by the effluent.)
>>What AD is into, promises far wider application of this basic comcept to
>>a far wider audience-- and again as long as the resource is free or
>>nearly so, off the table scraps as it were, it remains far more
>>efficient than any other fuel we may opt for.
>>
>>This polemic applies of course only to the household or village at the
>>point of supply, and not a more institutionalised or commerical setting
>>but it is worth keeping in mind if you are targetting the real
>>population of the globe outside the (increasingly) western island of the
>>US of the Americas.
>>
>>Richard Stanley
>>Mzungu nusu
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Gasification mailing list
>>Gasification at listserv.repp.org
>>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From koopmans at loxinfo.co.th Sun Nov 7 18:27:23 2004
From: koopmans at loxinfo.co.th (Auke Koopmans)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:27:23 +0700
Subject: [Stoves] Horozintal Chimneys
References: <002401c4c437$2ea1af50$7e5bef9b@jhon92z4a514j6>
Message-ID: <008f01c4c529$b9179d00$ac30accb@aukeufr0ppg2sw>

Maybe this helps as well. These "rules" are normally used to design chimneys
for ceramic kilns firing ceramics, bricks and so on.

There should be 3 feet of chimney to every foot of downward pull, plus 1
foot of chimney to every 3 feet of horizontal pull. Source: "The Kiln Book"
by Frederick L. Olsen, 1983

Auke

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Davies" <jmdavies at telkomsa.net>
To: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 2:30 AM
Subject: [Stoves] Horozintal Chimneys

> Greetings,
> Some interesting theory on chimneys has surfaced recently. I would like to
> thank Crispin for making the spreadsheet available, there is much food
for
> thought in the different ideas shared.
>
> I would like to share my experiences relating to Horozintal chimneys and
> combustion control which was found by trial and error. Please take note
that
> the stove used was my "gassifier coal stove. " which uses updraft air flow
> with secondry air admitted to a burner above the fuel bed. The fuel is top
> lit which pyrolyses from top to bottom, reducing the bitumenous coal to
coke
> and then burns the coke to ash. The chimney draft and combustion rate is
> controlled by only one lever which controls the heated secondary air flow.
> Trial and error showed that the ideal chimney height was 9 ft ( 2.7m )
> using a 3 inch diameter pipe ( 75mm )
>
> I installed the stove in my home for space heating and trials during the
> winter of 2003. Not wanting to take the chimney through the roof, which
> would have required adherence to insurance specifications and require
> professional installation, I decided to take the chimney outside through a
> small window , replacing the small glass pane in the top corner of a
window
> unit, with a steel sheet with chimney hole. A roof overhang of about 5 ft
> had to be passed. The result was as follows. From the stove outlet, the
> chimney travels verticly for about 3 ft ( 1 m ) . It then travels on an
> upward slope ( about 20 degrees from horozontal ) for about 5 ft ( 1.5m )
> horozontally, ant then takes a vertical direction again. It was installed
to
> give the standard 9 ft vertical height above the stove outlet.
>
> The fun started. The normal smokeless light-up was gone. The draft was so
> poor that the kindling did not produce enough heat to light the coal under
> it. I have no temperature measuring instruments, so the touch method had
to
> be used. The initial vertical pipe appeared to have a constant
temperature,
> too hot to hold. At the end of the 20deg horozintal section the pipe was
> only abour 40 C. ( 104 F )
>
> LESSON 1. A HOROZINTAL CHIMNEY SECTION RADIATES OUT MANY TIMES THE HEAT
> OF A VERTICAL SECTION. ( THIS PHENOMON COULD BE USED IN RADIATING PANELS
> DESIGNED TO USE EXCESS CHIMNEY TEMPERATURE/HEAT FOR SPACE HEATING )
>
> The next step was to insulate the horozintal section. This duly done, the
> temperature loss was reduced to acceptable limits. But the draft was still
> to low, the stove could be operated, but with smoke, where the norm is
> smokeless, and with reduced heat output.
>
> LESSON 2. HOROZINTAL SECTIONS CAUSE GREAT FLOW RESISTANCE.
>
> Step 3 was to increase the chimney height until normal combustion
> characteristics were recovered. The chimney height had increased by about
5
> ft. ( 1.5m )
>
> LESSON 3 FOR SECTIONS THAT ARE 20 DEG OFF HOROZINTAL, THE VERTICAL
HEIGHT
> OF THE CHIMNEY NEEDS TO BE INCREASED BY THE SAME NUMBER OF HORIZINTAL
UNITS.
>
> I suspect that a perfectly horizontal section would require an even
greater
> increase in height, coupled with a greater heat loss.
>
> I hope that this may be of use to you,
> Happy stoving.
>
> John Davies.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Mon Nov 8 06:55:36 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 08:55:36 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane
digestion device
References: <3.0.32.20041017121733.00998d10@pop.btl.net><000401c4c453$fdcbfb70$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
<418DCDCE.1020709@legacyfound.org>
<001a01c4c4cb$bae68050$259a0a40@kevin>
<418E582B.6030202@legacyfound.org>
Message-ID: <001201c4c592$74532680$4d9a0a40@kevin>

Dear Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Stanley" <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device

> Kevin,
> Thanks for your elucidation: Its obvious enough to you and I perhaps for
> an industrialised environment but to Apu Banda, in Ambepussa it remains
> another story.
> Apu has more than one cow per person already and with five kids
> assigned, gathering the dung from one more animal unit means little in
> terms of labor efficiency.

I would suggest that you are correct as far as you go in your analysis, but
that you don't go far enough with it. :-) As nearly as I can express it, I
would suggest that because of present levels of efficiency in conversion and
utilization, current biogas utilization is confined to existing
"opportunitiy areas". AD Karve's improvement in biogas generation by a
factor of 20 to 40 now means that Urban Families, or at least families on
the fringes of an Urban Site, can now generate and use biogas, when it would
otherwise have been impossible for them to have biogas.

> His "Facility" is a few oil drums banded together with scrap wire, or a
> beatup, tar-lined and inverted water tank in a hand dug pit. His space
> is open and a few more or less square feet do not really matter (didd
> you ever squeeze into a matatu always one more person is the rule not
> the exception. What Apu needs is nto greater efficiency bu greater
> access to something basic and functional first, He has nearly zero for
> "capital outlays" and no accessto low cost loan schemes. And he is 90%
> of the people you are dealing with ---if and again if---you are
> concerned about a mass market in the real world.

With the resources that were available to him, Apu has a limited daily
biogas production capability. If he had greater efficiency in biogas
production and utilization, the same "capital and resource base" is
magnified in value, and he can then do things which were previously not
possible. For example, he may be able to cook or bake food for his
neighbours, when this would not be possible at the present.

> If the development problem were boundup in calcualtions of efficiencies
> and rudimentary economics the problems would have been solved long ago.
> Its not that I am ignoring the need for efficiency but that I amd
> trying tto convey to you the need tto a closer look at the real
> problems of access, affordability, appropriateness and above all design
> which encourages local control and responsibility.

If the efficiencies of production and utilization were greater, then biogas
can become available to more people. For example, before Apu had 5 cows and
5 children, his family could have had access to biogas. Other families that
were larger but with a smaller land base, and fewer cows could have access
to biogas. Families could have access to biogas with fewer 45 gallon drums,
and smaller storage facilities.

> This is the sticky stuff of development. That one develops a better
> gasifier or biogas digester is all well and good but it has to be
> better as well, in terms of the above criteria. Measure the efficiency
> of your stove on-site with the users, over some yama choma. Thats where
> it is measured. Thats why, in a parallel manner, AD's work has so much
> value : It is developed and vetted by and within the culture.

There are two "issues" here:
1: Improvements in efficiency, reduction in the requirement for existing
resources, and the ability to use other resources; size of facilitry; cost
per unit of output.
2: The "invented here" syndrome.

He seems to have combined both "issues", to get a successful program
underway.

Best wishes,

Kevin
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> Kevin Chisholm wrote:
>
> >Dear Richard
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Richard Stanley" <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
> >Subject: Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion
device
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Tom et al,
> >>
> >>What does efficiency matter, if the source is free to the average
> >>citisen of the planet ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >For a given weekly output of biogass, the efficiency of conversion of the
> >biomass resource to methane, and the efficiency or biogas utilization are
> >very important for these reasons:
> >
> >1: The capital cost of the facility can be reduced.
> >2: The space required can be reduced
> >3: Less biomass is required
> >4: Less effort is required to find biomass, or, where it is animal
sourced,
> >fewer animals are required.
> >5: Less time and effort is required to load biomass and remove waste from
> >reactor.
> >6: An efficient system may be practical where an inefficient system
> >wouldn't. (For example, it it was fueled with dung, and vegetative waste,
> >there may be enough feedstock available if the system is efficient, but
not
> >enough for an inefficient system.
> >7: With a system of a given size and where biomass resource is not
limiting,
> >then an efficient system will provide sufficient biogas for more people.
> >
> >Best wishes,
> >
> >Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>We very much enjoyed this relatively inefficient biogas for four years
> >>at our comfortable urban houusehold in Arusha Tanzania, refilling the
> >>2,5 mtr dia. digester once a week with the wastes of five cows--six or
> >>seven if it was the holidays or friends were visiting. The issue of
> >>thermal efficiency pales when considering that the resource was free.
> >>(And one would have to addin of course the ongoing harvest of
> >>incredible vegetables and fruits that came off the garden, which was fed
> >>by the effluent.)
> >>What AD is into, promises far wider application of this basic comcept to
> >>a far wider audience-- and again as long as the resource is free or
> >>nearly so, off the table scraps as it were, it remains far more
> >>efficient than any other fuel we may opt for.
> >>
> >>This polemic applies of course only to the household or village at the
> >>point of supply, and not a more institutionalised or commerical setting
> >>but it is worth keeping in mind if you are targetting the real
> >>population of the globe outside the (increasingly) western island of the
> >>US of the Americas.
> >>
> >>Richard Stanley
> >>Mzungu nusu
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Gasification mailing list
> >>Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> >>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

From tombreed at comcast.net Mon Nov 8 08:06:09 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (TBReed)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:06:09 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Missed Fuel Opportunity - 1974
Message-ID: <015401c4c59c$1a918150$3401a8c0@OFFICE>

Dear Renewable Energy enthusiasts and Concerned Citizens:

In 1973 at MIT I began using 10% methanol gasoline blends (M10) in my car and discovered that I achieved considerably better mileage and lower emissions than with gasoline. Same for 9 other cars selected at random. Methanol and mixed alcohols are the most likely renewable liquid fuels for spark ignited cars - all very high octane and clean burning. They can be made from natural gas, coal, wood or municipal waste.

A retired oil man sent me and MIT a check for $100,000 to pursue this. It was administered through the new "MIT ENERGY LAB". We set up tests for MIT students and faculty to begin using this blend and report performance and any problems.

Three months later oil and motor interests donated $1,000,000 to the MIT Energy Lab. I was told that the tests had to be cancelled because "the oil and motor companies" are experts in the field and would know if was practical. Money was taken from my account and the project closed down.

Read all about it at http://www.woodgas.com/methanol.htm.
~~~~~~~~~
If we had begun using coal/gas/biomass to make synthetic fuels at that time we would have had a lever to control the cost of oil. We would not have sent the petrodollars to the Near East to fund the Iran-Iraq War, Dessert Storm, 9-11 and the current Iraq war.

In 1974 we imported 14% of our oil. In 2001 we imported 57% of our oil. Big bucks for petro dollars.

"Of all sad words of tongue or pen
The Saddest are these - "It might have been". (James Whitcomb Riley)

However, it isn't too late to develop a serious alternate to our dependence on oil and to funding terrorism in the U.S.

Suggestions?

TOM REED The Biomass Energy Foundation

From tombreed at comcast.net Mon Nov 8 08:30:29 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (Tom Reed)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:30:29 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Triglyceride fuel
Message-ID: <023201c4c59f$802e33c0$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>

Bill and All:

The viscosity of vegetable oils is 40 (mp?) while diesel is 2.5, so you can
coke up your engine by burning them. You can burn triglycerides (vegetable
oils, animal fats, yellow grease) safely in diesel engines if you start and
stop the engine on conventional diesel and have the oil warm to reduce
viscosity, but this takes two tanks.

What is the viscosity of palm oil (C16 rather than C18 fatty acids)

We need a biodiesel site here at REPP.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
To: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Eating fossil fuels

>
>
> Hi Dan --
>
> Check out this site --
>
> http://www.asd-cr.com/
>
> high yield palm oil plants -- clones --
>
> Palm oil -- straight and pure -- is being bought in supermarkets in
Germany
> and being used in that manner -- no conversions -- as diesel in Jettas.
The
> German Government is pissed -- losing the tax dollars.
>
> You might also want to check on food and medicinal values --
>
> http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/red_palm_oil.htm
>
> That just one quicky example.
>
> Your talking a yield of 1500 gals per acre per year -- and lazy man's
> farming!! And easy to extract -- minimum investment in equipments!
>
> Remember -- I am all ready expressing coconut oil. And cohune nut oil!!
>
> I am not concerned about these problems for us here -- but if -- should --
> the US go down -- it is a great misery for people here -- people
everywhere.
>
> Hey -- all that has to be done to stop this horrid developing scenario is
> just turn down the gas. Economize. No more SUVs -- a little more us of
> public transit -- start by doubling or tripling the price of fuels -- and
> apply that tax windfall to clearing off some deficits.
>
> Simple -- easy stuff -- common sense stuff --
>
> The US used to be so good at handling problems -- now we -- the rest of
the
> world -- wonders.
>
> Anything beats going to war to continue squandering global resources.
>
> Peter
>
> At 10:18 PM 10/26/2004 EDT, Carefreeland at aol.com wrote:
> >>>>
> Peter,
> How about soy beans? My little Daughter calls them "soil beans".
> They could be fertilized with ash and need no nitrogen. If they would
just
> allow a small amount of the crop to re- seed itself, all you would have to
> do was harvest. Then make oil and burn in a diesel engine. 45 gallons per
> acre yield in Ohio.
> Dan Dimiduk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sun Nov 7 05:22:22 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:52:22 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device
References: <3.0.32.20041017121733.00998d10@pop.btl.net>
<000401c4c453$fdcbfb70$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <000001c4c5a4$4046b2a0$465841db@adkarve>

Dear Tom,
I fail to understand how propane has more energy than methane? I was told by
experts, that weight for weight, methane had the same energy content as LPG.
I think, propane is a part of the LPG complex.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>
To: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>; <gasification at listserv.repp.org>; STOVES
<STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 3:39 AM
Subject: [Stoves] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device

> Dear all:
>
> Good, but not quite LPG (Liquefied petroleum gases, primarily propane and
> butane). Methane has roughly 50% more energy than digestor gas, but
> vaporized propane has 400% more and 4000% more when liquefied (boiling
point
> ~-25C). Normally methane can't be liquefied at room temperature (a
> permanent gas), but maybe the liquefiable CO2 component might change the
> properties, maybe forming hydrates. It would be useful to have a PVT
> diagram for digestor gases.
>
> Volunteers?
>
> Yours truly, TOM REED BEF
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
> To: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>; <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 12:18 PM
> Subject: [Stoves] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device
>
>
> >
> > (Flipping this to Gas list as well -- being as this is about gas making)
> >
> > Posting this with all respect to A. D. Karve -- who in my opinion is the
> > brightest beacon of pratical solutions on this mail list for all we here
> > living in 3rd world.
> >
> > Now -- this posting should get a few gears engaged!
> >
> > Quoting A.D. Karve:
> >
> > "The gas produced by this
> > system has thus almost the same calorific value as LPG. It burns without
> > smoke or soot, producing an almost invisible bluish flame similar to
> > that of LPG."
> >
> >
> > As by now a few stover list members might be scratching their collective
> > minds -- along these lines:
> >
> > Gee -- gas production for cook stoves is a fine methology to avoid death
> > due to smoke inhalation. Instead of harvesting/finding biomass for
fuel --
> > than intensive fuel conditioning -- designing tricky stoves that need
> > constant attention to burn smoke free -- still requiring chimney and
vents
> > -- just grow some sugar cane!
> >
> > so -- for now -- "Focussing" on cane juice as portable fuel for A.D.s
> > digester.
> >
> >
> > OK -- how do really poor people make cane juice??
> >
> > Traditionally -- here in Central America:
> >
> > Hand extraction of cane juice involves boring two holes in a tree -- the
> > upper one has a moveable stick inserted -- the lower a fatter -- jammed
in
> > hard -- not moveable -- the "anvil" inserted.
> >
> > A stalk of cane is placed between these two -- the top stick being
raised
> > -- then pressed down -- squeezing out juice -- this is repeated down the
> > length of cane. The juices collected below.
> >
> > If we can get A. D. to enter into discussion -- some questions need be
> asked.
> >
> > 1: Will fresh cane juice be a good "food" for your digester?
> >
> > re:
> >
> > Because the
> > material to be fed into the biogas plant consists mainly of starch and
> > sugary material like sugarcane juice or fruit pulp,
> >
> > 2: How much cane juice would be required per day to supply for normal
> > cooking needs?
> >
> > (I self answer that based on information A.D has sent -- below)
> >
> > 3: Is it possible that the residual stalk -- which when extracted in
this
> > inefficient manner - -and still contains much sugar juice -- can also be
> > added to digester?? (Could digestion of begasse further enhance gas
> product
> > out?)
> >
> > Re:
> >
> > "Our studies also indicated that
> > the gas yield could be increased by using combinations of feedstock
> > materials. We are now looking at additives such as micronutrients,
> > nitrogen, phosphorous compounds etc."
> >
> > Bagasse is very mineral rich.
> >
> > 4: The residue after digestion -- you note is a valid fertilizer
agent --
> > is it a possible animal feed as well??
> >
> > Re:
> >
> > "The effluent slurry generated daily by the plant
> > is just a couple of litres. It can be used as manure for plants growing
> > around the house."
> >
> > 5: Source for bacteria required??
> >
> > Self answer from notes below:
> >
> > We do not use any special bacteria. To begin with we mix
> > about 10 kg cattle dung and water and pour the slurry into the
> > fermenter.
> >
> > and:
> >
> > However, to make the system more readily acceptable to the
> > users, we shall have to produce the culture ourselves and give it to the
> > users along with the biogas plant.
> >
> > 6: Is this device difficult to build??
> >
> > Self answer:
> >
> > A schoolgirl submitted a working model of it in a statewide
> > science project competition and won the first prize in the state.
> >
> > ***************************
> >
> > Ok -- found this to self-answer #2:
> >
> > "1kg of sugar or starch yields about 400 litres of methane,
> > within a period of 6 to 8 hours. This quantity is enough for cooking one
> > meal for 5 to 6 persons."
> >
> > So that would mean around 12 kilograms of cane using the crude
extraction
> > methology above -- quite labor instensive -- but then -- a small hand
> > operated rool type crusher could be used by numerous families to save
much
> > labor.
> >
> > You can see example of such at:
> >
> > http://www.rajeximp.com/products/sc.html
> >
> > I have acquired and operated model "A" -- powered by a two HP electric
> > engine -- for well over on year now. When in use we process 1400 kilo of
> > cane stalk per day -- 3 workers.
> >
> > This at better efficiency of juice extraction than the above -- but
> keeping
> > a safety in guestimation factor there -- say the same --
> >
> > 1400/12 -- sufficient per day to supply fuel for 117 meals to be cooked.
> >
> > At village level this would mean each household would collect by
container
> > the required amount of cane juice -- daily -- for their needs in their
own
> > individual digesters.
> >
> > So yes -- "portable-fuel"
> >
> >
> > *********************************************
> >
> > To bring others on this list up to speed:
> >
> >
> > Posted to this list originally:
> >
> > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:48:03 +0530
> > Reply-To: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
> >
> > Extracted of importance:
> >
> > I have developed a highly compact biogas plant, having a volume of just
> > 400 litres. It operates on waste starch (spoilt grain, nonedible seed of
> > various species, oilcake of non-edible oilseeds, rhizomes of banana,
> canna,
> > nutgrass, arums, flour swept from the floor of a flour mill etc.) and
> > produces about 800 litres of gas from just 1 kg starch. It produces
daily
> > just 5 litres of effluent, which can just be thrown at the base of any
> tree,
> > or applied to the vegetable bed in the backyard. The retention time of
> dung
> > in the dung-based biogas fermenter is 6 weeks, while that of starch is
> only
> > 6 hours, which is why the volume of the fermenter could be reduced. The
> > biogas produced from starch has about 60% methane by weight, while that
> > produced from cattle dung has only 25% methane by weight. As a result,
> even
> > the 800 litres produced by my biogas plant is enough for cooking the
meal
> of
> > a family.
> > We are trying to commercialise this new biogas fermenter. It costs
> only
> > US$30 as against US$250 for the conventional biogas fermenter.
> > Yours A.D.Karve
> >
> > ***********************************
> >
> > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 05:50:59 +0530
> > Reply-To: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
> >
> > "Extracted":
> >
> > As far as the biogas fermenter is concerned, it is a small version of
the
> > standard moving dome biogas plant, a very simple contraption
> > consisting of two drums, telescoping into one another. the outer drum is
> > open at the top and the inner one is open at its bottom. The outer drum
is
> > filled with the material to be fermented and the inner drum is lowered
> into
> > it. A tap at the top of the inner drum is kept open while lowering the
> drum
> > into the outer one, and when it has been completely inserted into the
> outer
> > drum, the tap is closed. The gas accumulates in the inner drum which
gets
> > lifted up due to increased buoyancy. (If a girl falls accidentally into
> > water, she should not remove her dress because the air caught in the
dress
> > acts like a buoy :-))The inner drum is provided with a tap at the top,
> > through which the biogas can be led to the burner. Both the drums have a
> > capacity of approximately 200 litres.
> > A.D.Karve
> >
> > ******************************
> >
> > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 05:58:20 +0530
> > Reply-To: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
> >
> > Several members asked me to provide more details about the compact
> > biogas plant being developed by us. I give below the latest status of
> > this technology.
> >
> > The biogas plant consists of two cylindrical vessels telescoping into
> > one another. The larger vessel, called the fermenter, has a total
> > internal volume of about 500 lit. A drum having diameter of 85 cm and
> > height of 85 cm would have the desired volume. The smaller vessel, which
> > telescopes into the larger one, serves as the gas-holder. The diameter
> > of the gas holder is about 2 cm smaller than that of the fermenter. The
> > fermenter vessel is provided with appropriate inlet and outlet pipes for
> > introducing the feedstock into it and for removal of spent slurry from
> > it. The gas holder is provided with a gas tap, through which the gas is
> > led to the burner. This system uses starchy or sugary material as
> > feedstock. 1kg of sugar or starch yields about 400 litres of methane,
> > within a period of 6 to 8 hours. This quantity is enough for cooking one
> > meal for 5 to 6 persons. The biogas produced by this system contains
> > theoretically about equal volumes of carbondioxide and methane, but in
> > reality, it turned out to have less than 5% carbondioxide. This
> > phenomenon is explained by the fact that carbon dioxide dissolves in the
> > water in the fermenter vessel and diffuses out of it through the 1 cm
> > gap between the fermenter and the gas holder. The gas produced by this
> > system has thus almost the same calorific value as LPG. It burns without
> > smoke or soot, producing an almost invisible bluish flame similar to
> > that of LPG.
> >
> > Several prototypes, in operation for more than a year, have been
> > successfully tested using various feedstocks. The potential candidate
> > feedstocks, namely rain damaged or insect damaged grain, flour spilled
> > on the floor of a flour mill, oilcake from non-edible oilseeds, seed of
> > various tree species, non-edible rhizomes (banana, arums, dioscoreas),
> > leftover food, spoiled and misshapen fruits, non-edible and wild fruits,
> > spoilt fruit juice, etc. are readily available in rural areas. This
> > system is much easier to operate than the dung based biogas plant,
> > because of the relatively small quantities of feedstock and effluent
> > slurry to be handled. The effluent slurry generated daily by the plant
> > is just a couple of litres. It can be used as manure for plants growing
> > around the house. The 500 litre biogas plant, mass produced from moulded
> > plastic drums, would cost about Rs. 3,500 (US$ 78). The smallest
> > cattle-dung based domestic biogas plant costs about Rs. 12,000 (US$267).
> > It requires daily 40kg dung, and owing to the retention period of almost
> > 40 days, such plants have a minimum capacity of 2000 litres. They
> > generate daily 80 to 100 litres of effluent slurry. Daily handling of
> > such large quantities of feedstock and effluent is considered to be
> > arduous and bothersome by users.
> > Preliminary studies indicated that the amount of biogas produced and the
> > retention period varied from feedstock to feedstock and from season to
> > season. Also, when the feedstock was changed from one form to another,
> > the system took a few days to stabilise. Our studies also indicated that
> > the gas yield could be increased by using combinations of feedstock
> > materials. We are now looking at additives such as micronutrients,
> > nitrogen, phosphorous compounds etc., which might bacterial action and
> > yield more gas at a faster rate. Since the users would depend mainly
> > upon locally available feedstock, field trials are essential to
> > determine the retention periods and gas yield for different raw
materials.
> > Many people in India, who read my article in a local neuspaper, copied
> > our design and have started to use this biogas plant in their
> > households. A schoolgirl submitted a working model of it in a statewide
> > science project competition and won the first prize in the state. A
> > company supplying science equipment to educational institute wants to
> > manufacture models (50 litre capacity) for supply to schools and
colleges.
> > We have supplied 200 litre models to 10 voluntary agencies in different
> > regions for demonstrating this technology to villagers in their
> > respective areas. This model is meant for areas where the main diet is
> > rice. This model yields enough gas to operate a pressure cooker to cook
> > rice, beans, vegetables or meat for a family of five. In areas, where
> > the main diet of the people consists of unleavened flat bread, somewhat
> > like the tortilla, each piece of bread is made individually, and
> > therefore the stove has to be in operation for a longer time. In such
> > cases, we recommend the five hundred litre model.
> >
> > A.D.Karve
> >
> > ***************************
> >
> > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:06:52 +0530
> > Reply-To: "A.D. Karve" <adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
> > Sender: The Stoves Discussion List <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> >
> > Dear Mr. Henson,
> > The fermenter vessel contains almost 200 litres of liquid. When you
> > pour a few litres of feedstock slurry into the biogas plant, a
> > corresponding quantity comes out of the outlet pipe. Because the
> > material to be fed into the biogas plant consists mainly of starch and
> > sugary material like sugarcane juice or fruit pulp, the slurry consists
> > almost exclusively of water with a little suspended matter in it. In the
> > case of cattle dung or municipal soild waste, the slurry is thicker,
> > because the feedstock material contains a lot of cellulose and lignin,
> > which are not as easily digestible as starch or sugar. Because the
> > effluent also consists of bacteria, and because the quantum of the
> > effluent is very small (just a few litres), we mix the starch powder or
> > fruit pulp into the effluent slurry and recycle it. We are currently
> > advocating that the feedstock be fed into the biogas plant once in the
> > morning and once again in the evening. Because the reaction time is
> > short, one can theoretically have a continuous drip feed, but the
> > relatively high viscosity of the feedstock may cause mechanical problems
> > like clogging of the dripper. It may also be theoretically possible to
> > produce alcohol and methane simultaneously, but we haven't looked for
> > alcohol. The system however runs on vinegar, which is the oxidised
> > product of alcohol. The system is sensitive to temperature. Here in Pune
> > it is not as cold as in the US, but at present the night temperatures
> > touch 10 degrees C. This lowering of the night temperature has reduced
> > the gas outflow considerably. However, it would not be difficult to
> > cover the drums with an insulating material and conserve the heat
> > produced by the bacterial process. I t would however add to the cost of
> > the system. We do not use any special bacteria. To begin with we mix
> > about 10 kg cattle dung and water and pour the slurry into the
> > fermenter. However, to make the system more readily acceptable to the
> > users, we shall have to produce the culture ourselves and give it to the
> > users along with the biogas plant. Dung is a dirty and smelly material.
> > In the initial phase, we add daily just 200 grams of flour. When gas
> > starts emanating, we test it for its combustibility. We get combustible
> > gas in 7 to 15 days.After the methane production has started, we
> > increase the daily dose of 1 kg starch at each feeding. The inlet and
> > outlet pipes have a diameter of about 5 cm.
> > A.D.Karve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ***************************
> >
> > Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 19:38:38 +0530
> > Reply-To: adkarve <adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN>
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Mr. Manar,
> > please tell me what is meant by AD, VS and TS.
> >
> > I wish to correct the figures of oilcake used and biogas generated. It
> > takes daily about 30 kg oilcake to produce 15 cubic meters of gas.But
this
> > gas consists of almost pure methane. It is not a case of co-generation,
> but
> > direct fermentation. Cattle dung was used only initially as a source of
> > bacteria, but for more than a month, they are using only oilcake.
> >
> > Let me also correct a fallacy that is current among scientists and
laymen
> > alike. The fact, that methanogenic bacteria are found in the excreta of
> > animals, led people to think that dung was their food. It is not. One
> > should take the advice of Mark Twain, namely not to allow school to
> > interfer with one's education, seriously. These bacteria live in our
> > intestines and eat whatever we eat. They are swept out of the intestine
> > along with undigested food and therefore they are found in the faeces.
> > Because dung is not the food of these bacteria, they have to take the
help
> > of several other species of faecal bacteria, which break down the dung
> into
> > sugars and organic acids, before the methanogenic bacteria can convert
> > them into methane. As a result, the quantity of methane produced from
> dung
> > (and distillery effluent, paper factory waste, municipal solid waste
> etc.)
> > is very low in proportion to the feedstock used, and secondly, it also
> > takes a lot of time.
> > Mr. Malar wanted to know the production potential of oilcake to methane.
> It
> > is stated in the standard textbooks on biogas technology, that 1 kg of
> > starch or sugar produces about 800 litres of biogas, out of which about
> 400
> > litres are methane. In our biogas plants, the reaction time of the
> > starch-to-methane process is 8 hours. Theoretically, the product should
> > also contain equal volume of carbon dioxide, but in the system that we
are
> > using, the carbon dioxide dissolves in the water in the fermenter and
> > diffuses out of the fermenter through the gap between the fermenter
vessel
> > and the moving dome. After seeing the nalysis of our biogas, somebody
> > suggested that we could use our gas for a driving a car. We do not have
> the
> > compressor to put the gas into a cylinder, but we operated a petrol
driven
> > portable electricity generator for about two hours, using just the
biogas
> > produced from oilcake.
> > Yours
> > Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
> > Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
> > Pune, India.
> >
> >
> > **************************************
> >
> > rom: Carefreeland at aol.com
> > Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 03:46:00 EDT
> > Subject: Re: [STOVES] Does the methane flame travel back?
> > To: adkarve at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN, stoves at listserv.repp.org
> >
> > "extracted"
> >
> > Methane may also
> > explode, as in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine, if it is
> mixed
> > with the appropriate quantity of oxygen. But under the anaerobic
> conditions
> > under which methane is produced and stored, it would not explode or burn
> as
> > long as it is inside the gas holder or inside the fermenter.
> > You also asked me if agricultural crop residues could be used for
> producing
> > methane instead of making charcoal. Unfortunately, the anaerobic
bacteria
> > cannot digest lignin. Woody and lignified crop residues like cotton
> stalks,
> > sugarcane leaves or wheat straw have to be first decomposed by aerobic
> > organisms. The digested mass is then fed into a biogas digester. This is
> > called two stage fermentation. It is used for agricultural residues and
> also
> > for municipal solid waste, but not in a domestic methane fermenter,
> because
> > the added cost of the extra fermenter and the extra space required by
the
> > system.
> >
> > The residual slurry of a biogas fermenter is a good organic source of
> plant
> > nutrients, because the process of methane formation removes CO2 and CH4
> from
> > the biomass. Because of the selectinve removal of these elements form
the
> > biomass, the other constituents such a N,P,K,Ca, Fe, etc. get
> concentrated
> > in residual slurry.
> >
> > Now -- for those on the Gas list that have made it down this far -- what
> do
> > you believe is the practical economic viability of converting abandoned
> > sugar factory plants into centralized gas production facilities for
> further
> > distribution??
> >
> >
> > Peter Singfield -- in Belize
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> > Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sun Nov 7 05:25:10 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:55:10 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's
methanedigestiondevice
References: <3.0.32.20041017121733.00998d10@pop.btl.net>
<"000401c4c453$fdcbfb 70$3201a8c0"@TOMBREED>
<418DCDCE.1020709@legacyfound.org>
Message-ID: <000501c4c5a4$466eee40$465841db@adkarve>

Dear Richard,
you are absolutely right. People are just clamouring after the compact
biogas plant. There is a vast source of unused waste starchy material, which
is just waiting to be converted into methane. The biodiesel, made out of
non-edible oilseeds, is a vast source of oilcake, which is today used only
as manure. All of it can be used as a source of methane.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Stanley <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
To: Tom Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>
Cc: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>; STOVES <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 12:55 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's
methanedigestiondevice

> Tom et al,
>
> What does efficiency matter, if the source is free to the average
> citisen of the planet ?
>
> We very much enjoyed this relatively inefficient biogas for four years
> at our comfortable urban houusehold in Arusha Tanzania, refilling the
> 2,5 mtr dia. digester once a week with the wastes of five cows--six or
> seven if it was the holidays or friends were visiting. The issue of
> thermal efficiency pales when considering that the resource was free.
> (And one would have to addin of course the ongoing harvest of
> incredible vegetables and fruits that came off the garden, which was fed
> by the effluent.)
> What AD is into, promises far wider application of this basic comcept to
> a far wider audience-- and again as long as the resource is free or
> nearly so, off the table scraps as it were, it remains far more
> efficient than any other fuel we may opt for.
>
> This polemic applies of course only to the household or village at the
> point of supply, and not a more institutionalised or commerical setting
> but it is worth keeping in mind if you are targetting the real
> population of the globe outside the (increasingly) western island of the
> US of the Americas.
>
> Richard Stanley
> Mzungu nusu
>
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From crispin at newdawn.sz Mon Nov 8 11:45:29 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:45:29 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Triglyceride fuel
Message-ID: <010901c4c5ba$cd3e0800$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Friends

I have heard it told that 15% of an American farm needs to be planted in
sunflower to give it enough fuel to run on.

A man in South africa who tried to introduce this on a large scale was
threatened with death and run out of the country to Botswana.

That was some years back. Now you can buy a 3 litres per second portable
farm-sized plant for taking sunflower seed and presing oil, esterizing it
and using it undiluted in a diesel tractor.

Hatz Tractors has done the most work in this regard.

Sincerely
Crispin

From frank at compostlab.com Mon Nov 8 12:09:20 2004
From: frank at compostlab.com (Frank Shields)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:09:20 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Triglyceride fuel
In-Reply-To: <010901c4c5ba$cd3e0800$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <OLECJMAOMNHBHDFDIDINGEAKDAAA.frank@compostlab.com>

Friends

One problem I was working on about ten years ago was to come up with a way
that organics can be stored for long periods of time without decomposition
until ready. This for storing J Artichocks. I worked for the inventer of the
process. He is in the process of getting a patent on the process so I cannot
mention the process. He also mentioned he was "intimidated" in the US and,
last we talked, is planning to market in South America.

Frank

Frank Shields
Soil Control Lab
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville CA 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
frank at compostlab.com
www.compostlab.com

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 9:45 AM
To: Stoves List
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Triglyceride fuel

Dear Friends

I have heard it told that 15% of an American farm needs to be planted in
sunflower to give it enough fuel to run on.

A man in South africa who tried to introduce this on a large scale was
threatened with death and run out of the country to Botswana.

That was some years back. Now you can buy a 3 litres per second portable
farm-sized plant for taking sunflower seed and presing oil, esterizing it
and using it undiluted in a diesel tractor.

Hatz Tractors has done the most work in this regard.

Sincerely
Crispin

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From stephen.gitonga at undp.org Mon Nov 8 14:02:54 2004
From: stephen.gitonga at undp.org (Stephen Gitonga)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 15:02:54 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Triglyceride fuel
In-Reply-To: <010901c4c5ba$cd3e0800$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <MJEHLIIKLCOMBICKMMPFKEFACIAA.stephen.gitonga@undp.org>

Dear Stovers

Just for information

The small grants Programme (SGP) of the Global Environment Facility (GEF)
supported a farming community in northwestern Poland to produce their own
biofuel for farming-tractors using a portable small-scale oil extraction
machine for rapeseed. They make biofuel by use of a small-scale (portable)
farm biofuel converter. They use it for farming in their tractors and the
farm trucks.

Cost per installation is on the range of $10,000 - $11,000.

One interesting fact in this community is that 1 hectare of rape straw
yields the equivalent of 800 dm3 of diesel, sufficient to farm 6.7 hectares,
so it quite attractive for the farmers.

The most interesting thing is that the project demonstrated the production
and use of biofuel at the individual farm level. By growing rapeseed and
making their. By growing rapeseed and making their own fuel, small farmers
reduce their dependence on the purchase of highly priced diesel. I visited
one farmer in June (2004) and I was impressed by the simplicity of the their
system.

However, like in many countries, in Poland, taxes on the sale of biofuels
make them very expensive to produce and they cannot compete with fossil
fuels if for example the farmers were to buy the biuofuel outside their
farms from a commercial producer.

For more information about this initiative and a photo of the Polish
portable biofuel converter please visit the following website
http://sgp.undp.org/download/SGP_Poland.pdf

Regards

Stephen

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott
Sent: 08 November 2004 12:45
To: Stoves List
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Triglyceride fuel

Dear Friends

I have heard it told that 15% of an American farm needs to be planted in
sunflower to give it enough fuel to run on.

A man in South africa who tried to introduce this on a large scale was
threatened with death and run out of the country to Botswana.

That was some years back. Now you can buy a 3 litres per second portable
farm-sized plant for taking sunflower seed and presing oil, esterizing it
and using it undiluted in a diesel tractor.

Hatz Tractors has done the most work in this regard.

Sincerely
Crispin

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From pverhaart at iprimus.com.au Mon Nov 8 18:21:34 2004
From: pverhaart at iprimus.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:21:34 +1000
Subject: [Stoves] Triglyceride fuel
In-Reply-To: <023201c4c59f$802e33c0$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
References: <023201c4c59f$802e33c0$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109101738.01bb6ed0@pop.iprimus.com.au>

I don't believe, as you suggest, a direct connection between viscosity and
coking (meaning the release of carbon inside the engine).
I can believe that oil of higher viscosity is harder to divide into the
same size droplets as oil of lower viscosity, so possibly you need higher
injection pressure.

Peter Verhaart

At 00:30 09/11/2004, you wrote:
>Bill and All:
>
>The viscosity of vegetable oils is 40 (mp?) while diesel is 2.5, so you can
>coke up your engine by burning them. You can burn triglycerides (vegetable
>oils, animal fats, yellow grease) safely in diesel engines if you start and
>stop the engine on conventional diesel and have the oil warm to reduce
>viscosity, but this takes two tanks.
>
>What is the viscosity of palm oil (C16 rather than C18 fatty acids)
>
>We need a biodiesel site here at REPP.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
>To: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:00 PM
>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Eating fossil fuels
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Dan --
> >
> > Check out this site --
> >
> > http://www.asd-cr.com/
> >
> > high yield palm oil plants -- clones --
> >
> > Palm oil -- straight and pure -- is being bought in supermarkets in
>Germany
> > and being used in that manner -- no conversions -- as diesel in Jettas.
>The
> > German Government is pissed -- losing the tax dollars.
> >
> > You might also want to check on food and medicinal values --
> >
> > http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/red_palm_oil.htm
> >
> > That just one quicky example.
> >
> > Your talking a yield of 1500 gals per acre per year -- and lazy man's
> > farming!! And easy to extract -- minimum investment in equipments!
> >
> > Remember -- I am all ready expressing coconut oil. And cohune nut oil!!
> >
> > I am not concerned about these problems for us here -- but if -- should --
> > the US go down -- it is a great misery for people here -- people
>everywhere.
> >
> > Hey -- all that has to be done to stop this horrid developing scenario is
> > just turn down the gas. Economize. No more SUVs -- a little more us of
> > public transit -- start by doubling or tripling the price of fuels -- and
> > apply that tax windfall to clearing off some deficits.
> >
> > Simple -- easy stuff -- common sense stuff --
> >
> > The US used to be so good at handling problems -- now we -- the rest of
>the
> > world -- wonders.
> >
> > Anything beats going to war to continue squandering global resources.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > At 10:18 PM 10/26/2004 EDT, Carefreeland at aol.com wrote:
> > >>>>
> > Peter,
> > How about soy beans? My little Daughter calls them "soil beans".
> > They could be fertilized with ash and need no nitrogen. If they would
>just
> > allow a small amount of the crop to re- seed itself, all you would have to
> > do was harvest. Then make oil and burn in a diesel engine. 45 gallons per
> > acre yield in Ohio.
> > Dan Dimiduk
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gasification mailing list
> > Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From keith at journeytoforever.org Tue Nov 9 05:38:19 2004
From: keith at journeytoforever.org (Keith Addison)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:38:19 +0900
Subject: [Stoves] Triglyceride fuel
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041109101738.01bb6ed0@pop.iprimus.com.au>
References: <023201c4c59f$802e33c0$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
<6.1.2.0.2.20041109101738.01bb6ed0@pop.iprimus.com.au>
Message-ID: <v04210103bdb619b8fcfe@[192.168.0.2]>

>I don't believe, as you suggest, a direct connection between
>viscosity and coking (meaning the release of carbon inside the
>engine).
>I can believe that oil of higher viscosity is harder to divide into
>the same size droplets as oil of lower viscosity, so possibly you
>need higher injection pressure.
>
>Peter Verhaart

There is indeed more to it than viscosity. See:

Report of the European Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from
Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) study of the use of straight vegetable oil as
diesel fuel. Investigates the burning characteristics of vegetable
oil droplets from experiments conducted under high pressure and high
temperature conditions. Very interesting study, worth a thorough read
(4,400 words).
http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm

Ref. from: Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

However, pre-heating the fuel does solve most/all of the problems,
depending on the motor. Starting up on unheated vegetable oil quickly
causes build-up of deposits, especially on the injectors.

The best straight vegetable oil system is a single-tank system made
by Elsbett, which does rather more than just pre-heating the fuel
like the two-tank systems do. You'll find it reffed at the Journey to
Forever page above.

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/

>
>At 00:30 09/11/2004, you wrote:
>>Bill and All:
>>
>>The viscosity of vegetable oils is 40 (mp?) while diesel is 2.5, so you can
>>coke up your engine by burning them. You can burn triglycerides (vegetable
>>oils, animal fats, yellow grease) safely in diesel engines if you start and
>>stop the engine on conventional diesel and have the oil warm to reduce
>>viscosity, but this takes two tanks.
>>
>>What is the viscosity of palm oil (C16 rather than C18 fatty acids)
>>
>>We need a biodiesel site here at REPP.
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
>>To: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:00 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Gasification] Eating fossil fuels
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Dan --
>> >
>> > Check out this site --
>> >
>> > http://www.asd-cr.com/
>> >
>> > high yield palm oil plants -- clones --
>> >
>> > Palm oil -- straight and pure -- is being bought in supermarkets in
>>Germany
>> > and being used in that manner -- no conversions -- as diesel in Jettas.
>>The
>> > German Government is pissed -- losing the tax dollars.
>> >
>> > You might also want to check on food and medicinal values --
>> >
>> > http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/red_palm_oil.htm
>> >
>> > That just one quicky example.
>> >
>> > Your talking a yield of 1500 gals per acre per year -- and lazy man's
>> > farming!! And easy to extract -- minimum investment in equipments!
>> >
>> > Remember -- I am all ready expressing coconut oil. And cohune nut oil!!
>> >
>> > I am not concerned about these problems for us here -- but if -- should --
>> > the US go down -- it is a great misery for people here -- people
>>everywhere.
>> >
>> > Hey -- all that has to be done to stop this horrid developing scenario is
>> > just turn down the gas. Economize. No more SUVs -- a little more us of
>> > public transit -- start by doubling or tripling the price of fuels -- and
>> > apply that tax windfall to clearing off some deficits.
>> >
>> > Simple -- easy stuff -- common sense stuff --
>> >
>> > The US used to be so good at handling problems -- now we -- the rest of
>>the
>> > world -- wonders.
>> >
>> > Anything beats going to war to continue squandering global resources.
>> >
>> > Peter
>> >
>> > At 10:18 PM 10/26/2004 EDT, Carefreeland at aol.com wrote:
>> > >>>>
>> > Peter,
>> > How about soy beans? My little Daughter calls them "soil beans".
>> > They could be fertilized with ash and need no nitrogen. If they would
>>just
>> > allow a small amount of the crop to re- seed itself, all you would have to
>> > do was harvest. Then make oil and burn in a diesel engine. 45 gallons per
>> > acre yield in Ohio.
>> > Dan Dimiduk

From tombreed at comcast.net Tue Nov 9 08:16:26 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (Tom Reed)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:16:26 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Gas compressability
References: <3.0.32.20041019213213.009c8dd0@pop.btl.net>
<000101c4b70a$072a86c0$4a5641db@adkarve>
Message-ID: <049901c4c666$b3e464b0$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>

Dear ADK and All:

At high pressures like 200 atm gases behave very non ideally. You can get
~15% more methane into a cylinder than ideal gas law would predict.

Mixing 20% hydrogen with methane to improve its combustion characteristics
reduces its compressability by ~25%.

Biogas is 2/3 methane, 1/3 CO2 and I suspect the CO2 will increase the
compressability many fold. Someone needs to make tests... or apply theory.

At sufficient pressure and low temperature methane becomes a hydrate with
water and there is more methane energy on the bottom of the deep oceans than
all other fossil fuel combined.

Anyone interested or volunteering?

TOM REED THE COLORADO SCHOOL OF MINES
----- Original Message -----
From: "adkarve" <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
To: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] sugar to alcohol or sugar to biogas

> Dear Peter,
> when cars use CNG they do not produce it in the car, but carry a cylinder
> that is filled with compressed CNG. You can use methane in exactly the
same
> manner.
> A.D.Karve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> To: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 9:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] sugar to alcohol or sugar to biogas
>
>
> >
> > Dear A.D.
> >
> > At 09:54 PM 10/19/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> > >This refers to the discussion between Len Walde and Peter Springfield
on
> > >this subject.
> >
> > *******snipped*******
> >
> > >Alcohol, on
> > >the hand, must be totally freed from water, before it can be be mixed
> with
> > >petrol to be used as gasohol in an internal combustion engine.
> >
> > Not true -- aguahol -- or 80% alcohol "rum" is a wonderful fuel as is --
> > and much easier to manufacture than pure ethanol -- but yes -- it can't
be
> > blended with gasoline -- engines need changed air/fuel ratios -- to
start
> > with. And cold starting in the more northern countries will be a
> problem --
> >
> > Brazil operated a large percentage of it;s vehicle on strong rum only
for
> > many years -- I believe the first Ford car was strong rum fuels -- and
> when
> > I was young -- all racing motorcycles used "aguahol".
> >
> > The first diesel used peanut oil for fuel.
> >
> > >>Separation of
> > >alcohol from water requires further input of energy.
> >
> > Yes -- and further processing and not of a passive nature.
> >
> > >>Another advantage of
> > >methane is that there are no legal restrictions on its production or
use,
> > >whereas in the case of alcohol, its production, sale, storage and use
all
> > >require permission from the Government.
> >
> > And that is probably the most excellent point of all!
> >
> > I have not yet been able to find any data on the very neat turn you have
> > taken in regards to bio digestion. All present state of the art biomass
> > digesters -- and all the science to go with that field -- appears to be
> > fixated on using sewage.
> >
> > (As indeed every aspect of ethanol production is fixated on "pure" -- is
> > terrifically difficult to make -- a very energy piggish (compared to
> making
> > strong rum) process -- and totally out of the domain of rolling your own
> in
> > a 3rd world country.
> >
> > Regarding high energy feed stocks for bio digesters --
> >
> > I believe your in the position to write the book on this.
> >
> > But unless a super fast digester can be designed small enough to fit on
a
> > vehicle and productive enough to power said vehicle on a continuous
basis
> > -- I do not see applications to replace portable fuels.
> >
> > On the other hand -- for operating stationary power plants -- it might
be
> > an exciting new development.
> >
> > Now -- if you could produce butane -- then you would have a true
portable
> > fuel.
> >
> > Peter -- Belize
> >
> > >Yours
> > >A.D.Karve
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Stoves mailing list
> > >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> > >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From tmiles at trmiles.com Tue Nov 9 08:45:16 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:45:16 -0800
Subject: Fw: [Stoves] RE: Triglyceride fuel
Message-ID: <004d01c4c66a$bef3fab0$6701a8c0@Yellow>

----- Original Message -----
From: "AJH" <ajh at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
To: <tmiles at trmiles.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] RE: Triglyceride fuel

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:45:29 +0200, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>Dear Friends
>
>I have heard it told that 15% of an American farm needs to be planted in
>sunflower to give it enough fuel to run on.

Tom Miles has suggested the bioconversion site was provided to discuss
making biofuels and both the straight oils (triglycerides) and the
biodiesel made by esterising them are most appropriate there.

http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/bioconversion

I am subscribed and look further to discussion on this interesting
subject there. To initiate it I have cross posted (something I
normally deprecate) and would throw in the factet that UK farmers used
to need one fifth of the arable area to support the draught animals
needed for transport and cultivations.

Andrew Heggie

From tmiles at trmiles.com Tue Nov 9 10:15:43 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:15:43 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane
digestion device
Message-ID: <011c01c4c678$6e1bb020$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

FWD to the list.

Note: Please put gasification at listserv.repp.org or stoves at listserv.repp.org in the "To:" field and not in the "Cc:" field.

Thanks

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: Oscar Jimenez
To: Richard Stanley ; Kevin Chisholm
Cc: gasification at listserv.repp.org ; STOVES
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 5:22 AM
Subject: RE: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device

High there to ALL...!!!, hello Stanley..!!

>>>Its not that I am ignoring the need for efficiency but that I amd trrying tto convey to you the need tto a closer look at the real problems of access, affordability, appropriateness and above all design which encourages local control and responsibility.<<<

....now your question is clear, at least to me, once we know the context your are dealing with... But to my personal opinion the correct answer to your concern is not only technically based, but needs some other stuffs not necessarily linked with technology...people's education seems to play an important role for achieving the goal you are after...!!

Regards.

Oscar.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Richard Stanley [mailto:rstanley at legacyfound.org]
Enviado el: domingo, 07 de noviembre de 2004 12:15
Para: Kevin Chisholm
CC: gasification at listserv.repp.org; STOVES
Asunto: Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device

Kevin,
Thanks for your elucidation: Its obvious enough to you and I perhaps for an industrialised environment but to Apu Banda, in Ambepussa it remains another story.
Apu has more than one cow per person already and with five kids assigned, gathering the dung from one more animal unit means little in terms of labor efficiency.
His "Facility" is a few oil drums banded together with scrap wire, or a beatup, tar-lined and inverted water tank in a hand dug pit. His space is open and a few more or less square feet do not really matter (didd you ever squeeze into a matatu always one more person is the rule not the exception. What Apu needs is nto greater efficiency bu greater access to something basic and functional first, He has nearly zero for "capital outlays" and no accessto low cost loan schemes. And he is 90% of the people you are dealing with ---if and again if---you are concerned about a mass market in the real world.
If the development problem were boundup in calcualtions of efficiencies and rudimentary economics the problems would have been solved long ago.
Its not that I am ignoring the need for efficiency but that I amd trrying tto convey to you the need tto a closer look at the real problems of access, affordability, appropriateness and above all design which encourages local control and responsibility.
This is the sticky stuff of development. That one develops a better gasifier or biogas digester is all well and good but it has to be better as well, in terms of the above criteria. Measure the efficiency of your stove on-site with the users, over some yama choma. Thats where it is measured. Thats why, in a parallel manner, AD's work has so much value : It is developed and vetted by and within the culture.
Richard

Kevin Chisholm wrote:

Dear Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Stanley" <rstanley at legacyfound.org>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Reviewing A.D. Karve's methane digestion device

Tom et al,

What does efficiency matter, if the source is free to the average
citisen of the planet ?

For a given weekly output of biogass, the efficiency of conversion of the
biomass resource to methane, and the efficiency or biogas utilization are
very important for these reasons:

Best wishes,

Kevin

Richard Stanley
Mzungu nusu

_______________________________________________
Gasification mailing list
Gasification at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification

From tmiles at trmiles.com Tue Nov 9 10:20:57 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:20:57 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: Forwarding Peter Verhaart on "Icy Ball"
Message-ID: <011e01c4c678$6e3aa9d0$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

----- Original Message -----
From: Pat StClair
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 4:16 PM
Subject: Forwarding Peter Verhaart on "Icy Ball"

I found your name through Google search Icy Balls refrigeration. I have two Crosley Icy Balls and would like to contact someone that has knowledge and interest. Please reply,

Pat St.Clair

pat at atascaderochamber.org

Atascadero Chamber of Commerce

pat at atascaderochamber.org

(805) 466-2044

From tmiles at trmiles.com Tue Nov 9 10:23:02 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:23:02 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: [Gasification] Gas compressability
Message-ID: <011f01c4c678$6e4b72b0$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

Please address your messages to gasification at listserv.reopp.org or
stoves at listserv.repp.org in the "To;" field not the "Cc:" Otherwise they
will be trashed.

Thanks

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnt Karlsen" <arnt at c2i.net>
To: "Tom Reed" <tombreed at comcast.net>
Cc: <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <snkm at btl.net>;
<gasification at listserv.repp.org>; <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Gas compressability

> On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:16:26 -0700, Tom wrote in message
> <049901c4c666$b3e464b0$3201a8c0 at TOMBREED>:
>
>> Dear ADK and All:
>>
>> At high pressures like 200 atm gases behave very non ideally. You can
>> get~15% more methane into a cylinder than ideal gas law would predict.
>>
>> Mixing 20% hydrogen with methane to improve its combustion
>> characteristics reduces its compressability by ~25%.
>>
>> Biogas is 2/3 methane, 1/3 CO2 and I suspect the CO2 will increase the
>> compressability many fold. Someone needs to make tests... or apply
>> theory.
>>
>> At sufficient pressure and low temperature methane becomes a hydrate
>> with water and there is more methane energy on the bottom of the deep
>> oceans than all other fossil fuel combined.
>>
>> Anyone interested or volunteering?
>
> ..funding, any volonteers? ;-)
>
> --
> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
> Scenarios always come in sets of three:
> best case, worst case, and just in case.
>
>
>

From tmiles at trmiles.com Tue Nov 9 10:19:01 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:19:01 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: [Gasification] Triglyceride fuel
Message-ID: <011d01c4c678$6e2c7900$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

All,

Please put gasification at listserv.repp.org or stoves at listserv.repp.org in the
"To:" field not the "Cc:" field. Otherwise the listserv discards your mail
as spam.

Thanks

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnt Karlsen" <arnt at c2i.net>
To: "Tom Reed" <tombreed at comcast.net>
Cc: <gasification at listserv.repp.org>; <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Triglyceride fuel

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:30:29 -0700, Tom wrote in message
<023201c4c59f$802e33c0$3201a8c0 at TOMBREED>:

> Bill and All:
>
> The viscosity of vegetable oils is 40 (mp?) while diesel is 2.5, so
> you can coke up your engine by burning them. You can burn
> triglycerides (vegetable oils, animal fats, yellow grease) safely in
> diesel engines if you start and stop the engine on conventional diesel
> and have the oil warm to reduce viscosity, but this takes two tanks.

..I beg to differ; 20 years ago, I flew model airplanes, with one tank,
on what I suspect was a mix of triglycerides, naphta or some nitrous
alcohol, kerosine and a syntetic lube oil compatible with this mixture,
not castor oil, this brew was ignited with standard glow plugs, and I
believe it was brewed by the Swedish Nyn?s petrochemical firm.

..power was typically 90% of that of methanol while endurance
was about 125% of that of methanol. Politics was part of this,
AFAIK, some idiot Swedes drank methanol and somehow
managed to get it banned, except for "vital" industrial uses
such as (eventually) model aviation.

..I vividly remember bootlegging methanol for my planes, minutes before
I got to the customs, I heard on the radio "it was banned this morning"
and I had a coupla canned gallons, however the customs guy was ok
with my "Oh, that's model airplane gasoline." ;-)

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.

From guyiii at cox.net Tue Nov 9 11:49:12 2004
From: guyiii at cox.net (GuyW)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:49:12 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Gas compressability
References: <3.0.32.20041019213213.009c8dd0@pop.btl.net><000101c4b70a$072a86c0$4a5641db@adkarve>
<049901c4c666$b3e464b0$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <020901c4c684$6c44d6d0$4701a8c0@guyiiipc>

OK, this is new to me (since my chemistry and fluid mechanics books don't
have this tidbit of info).

Do you have a citation for that concept?

Thanx,

-Guy-

> At high pressures like 200 atm gases behave very non ideally. You can get
> ~15% more methane into a cylinder than ideal gas law would predict.

From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Nov 9 18:25:28 2004
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:25:28 EST
Subject: [Stoves] Triglyceride fuel
Message-ID: <c8.518373a3.2ec2b9f8@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/9/04 7:05:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
keith at journeytoforever.org writes:

>
> However, pre-heating the fuel does solve most/all of the problems,
> depending on the motor. Starting up on unheated vegetable oil quickly
> causes build-up of deposits, especially on the injectors

DD Keith, long time no write, and yea, am just as upset about the USA
elections as you. Funny thing about this statement is that my latest experiance shows
that my Bobcat cold starts better on soy oil B20. It smokes less and starts
without glow plugs at a colder temp. Must be the synergy of the dino mix. Go
figure . LOL

Daniel Dimiduk

From Carefreeland at aol.com Tue Nov 9 18:29:47 2004
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:29:47 EST
Subject: [Stoves] Gas compressability
Message-ID: <127.4ec2f5f1.2ec2bafb@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/9/04 9:17:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tombreed at comcast.net writes:

>
> At sufficient pressure and low temperature methane becomes a hydrate with
> water and there is more methane energy on the bottom of the deep oceans than
> all other fossil fuel combined.
>
> Anyone interested or volunteering?
>
> TOM REED

DD Tom, what about the possibility of storing and transporting methane as a
hydrate, is that practical? Maybe they are missing something here, they have
before. LOL

Daniel Dimiduk.

From charleyslim at yahoo.com Wed Nov 10 04:24:20 2004
From: charleyslim at yahoo.com (CHARLES NWACHUKWU)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:24:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stoves] diagrams and graphics would help
In-Reply-To: <20041107170008.B963B293A6@ns2.misteam.net>
Message-ID: <20041110102420.72067.qmail@web12405.mail.yahoo.com>

Sir,

thanks for your mails in the volume and issue format.
they were really educating.
the issue 9&10 seem very much the same.
descriptions of physical structures like the digester for biogas production was vague.
how i wish i could get hold of pictorial or graphic representations of it.
i only imagine it in my head but most times i can't figure out much for myself.
also, the rocket stove i asked you to help me with its "principle and material of construction" is still left untold.
please, i want to ask you again to give me information with regards to the rocket stove.
thank you.

charles nwachukwu.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Wed Nov 10 04:26:14 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:56:14 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Gas compressability
References: <3.0.32.20041019213213.009c8dd0@pop.btl.net>
<"000101c4b70a$072a86 c0$4a5641db"@adkarve>
<049901c4c666$b3e464b0$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
Message-ID: <000401c4c71f$637bfc40$4e5341db@adkarve>

Dear Tom,
a friend of mine visited South Africa. He told me that the S.African farmers
produced a lot of biogas. He reported that these farms were visited by
operators, who have gas compressors mounted on trucks. They go from to farm,
compress the biogas made by the farmers, most probably also remove the
carbon dioxide from the biogas, and fill the cpmpressed methane into
cylinders. The cylinders are left with the farmers. Once the methane is in
cylinders, it has a much greater flexibility of use. He also told me that
this process was developed by the South African Ministry of Atomic Energy
and that it was patented.
Perhaps Cobus or Crispin can throw more light on it.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>
To: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>; <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:46 PM
Subject: Gas compressability

> Dear ADK and All:
>
> At high pressures like 200 atm gases behave very non ideally. You can get
> ~15% more methane into a cylinder than ideal gas law would predict.
>
> Mixing 20% hydrogen with methane to improve its combustion characteristics
> reduces its compressability by ~25%.
>
> Biogas is 2/3 methane, 1/3 CO2 and I suspect the CO2 will increase the
> compressability many fold. Someone needs to make tests... or apply
theory.
>
> At sufficient pressure and low temperature methane becomes a hydrate with
> water and there is more methane energy on the bottom of the deep oceans
than
> all other fossil fuel combined.
>
> Anyone interested or volunteering?
>
> TOM REED THE COLORADO SCHOOL OF MINES
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "adkarve" <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> To: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
> Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] sugar to alcohol or sugar to biogas
>
>
> > Dear Peter,
> > when cars use CNG they do not produce it in the car, but carry a
cylinder
> > that is filled with compressed CNG. You can use methane in exactly the
> same
> > manner.
> > A.D.Karve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> > To: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 9:03 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Stoves] sugar to alcohol or sugar to biogas
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Dear A.D.
> > >
> > > At 09:54 PM 10/19/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> > > >This refers to the discussion between Len Walde and Peter Springfield
> on
> > > >this subject.
> > >
> > > *******snipped*******
> > >
> > > >Alcohol, on
> > > >the hand, must be totally freed from water, before it can be be mixed
> > with
> > > >petrol to be used as gasohol in an internal combustion engine.
> > >
> > > Not true -- aguahol -- or 80% alcohol "rum" is a wonderful fuel as
is --
> > > and much easier to manufacture than pure ethanol -- but yes -- it
can't
> be
> > > blended with gasoline -- engines need changed air/fuel ratios -- to
> start
> > > with. And cold starting in the more northern countries will be a
> > problem --
> > >
> > > Brazil operated a large percentage of it;s vehicle on strong rum only
> for
> > > many years -- I believe the first Ford car was strong rum fuels -- and
> > when
> > > I was young -- all racing motorcycles used "aguahol".
> > >
> > > The first diesel used peanut oil for fuel.
> > >
> > > >>Separation of
> > > >alcohol from water requires further input of energy.
> > >
> > > Yes -- and further processing and not of a passive nature.
> > >
> > > >>Another advantage of
> > > >methane is that there are no legal restrictions on its production or
> use,
> > > >whereas in the case of alcohol, its production, sale, storage and use
> all
> > > >require permission from the Government.
> > >
> > > And that is probably the most excellent point of all!
> > >
> > > I have not yet been able to find any data on the very neat turn you
have
> > > taken in regards to bio digestion. All present state of the art
biomass
> > > digesters -- and all the science to go with that field -- appears to
be
> > > fixated on using sewage.
> > >
> > > (As indeed every aspect of ethanol production is fixated on "pure" --
is
> > > terrifically difficult to make -- a very energy piggish (compared to
> > making
> > > strong rum) process -- and totally out of the domain of rolling your
own
> > in
> > > a 3rd world country.
> > >
> > > Regarding high energy feed stocks for bio digesters --
> > >
> > > I believe your in the position to write the book on this.
> > >
> > > But unless a super fast digester can be designed small enough to fit
on
> a
> > > vehicle and productive enough to power said vehicle on a continuous
> basis
> > > -- I do not see applications to replace portable fuels.
> > >
> > > On the other hand -- for operating stationary power plants -- it might
> be
> > > an exciting new development.
> > >
> > > Now -- if you could produce butane -- then you would have a true
> portable
> > > fuel.
> > >
> > > Peter -- Belize
> > >
> > > >Yours
> > > >A.D.Karve
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Stoves mailing list
> > > >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > > >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> > > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> > Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From tmiles at trmiles.com Wed Nov 10 09:21:03 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:21:03 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] diagrams and graphics would help
References: <20041110102420.72067.qmail@web12405.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004801c4c739$323a4780$6701a8c0@Yellow>

Charles

Go to:
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

You will find links to:
1. Rocket Stoves in Subsaharan Africa which will link you to 9 reports by
Aprovecho and GTZ describing Rocket stoves.
2. Five Stoves Projects 2004 , Ken Goyer which will show projects and
pictures using the Rocket stove.
3. Info from List Participants -
Dean Still you will find many article describing Rocket stoves.
Jim Wilmes - A Visiual Guide to Building the Justa Stove
4. Gallery of Stoves 2003, 2002, there are many picutres and links to Rocket
stoves.

Have fun

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: "CHARLES NWACHUKWU" <charleyslim at yahoo.com>
To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 2:24 AM
Subject: [Stoves] diagrams and graphics would help

> Sir,
>
> thanks for your mails in the volume and issue format.
> they were really educating.
> the issue 9&10 seem very much the same.
> descriptions of physical structures like the digester for biogas
> production was vague.
> how i wish i could get hold of pictorial or graphic representations of it.
> i only imagine it in my head but most times i can't figure out much for
> myself.
> also, the rocket stove i asked you to help me with its "principle and
> material of construction" is still left untold.
> please, i want to ask you again to give me information with regards to the
> rocket stove.
> thank you.
>
> charles nwachukwu.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>

From sylva at iname.com Thu Nov 11 10:40:55 2004
From: sylva at iname.com (sylva at iname.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:40:55 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove
Message-ID: <20041111164055.E5B90101D8@ws1-3.us4.outblaze.com>

Subject: Ethanol Stove
From: "akraj at pn2" <akraj at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:13:45 +0530

Dear friends,

We are happy to inform you that we have developed a simple ethanol stove which can run on 50% and above ethanol/water mixture. The power of stove is 2.5 kW(thermal). The details are given in; http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/ethstove.pdf

Shortly we will test 10 of these units in rural homes nearby.

Cheers.

Anil K Rajvanshi, Ph.D.
Director
Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
Phaltan-Lonand Road, Tambmal,
P.O.Box 44, Phaltan - 415523
Maharashtra, India

Ph: 91-2166-222396
Fax: 91-2166-220945

http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net
http://www.nariphaltan.org
--
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Thu Nov 11 09:35:44 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:05:44 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Biogas compressibility
References: <3.0.32.20041019213213.009c8dd0@pop.btl.net>
<"000101c4b70a$072a8 6 c0$4a5641db"@adkarve>
<049901c4c666$b3e464b0$3201a8c0@TOMBREED>
<"000401c4c71f $637bfc40$4e5341db"@adkarve>
<015d01c4c726$197e78a0$3401a8c0@OFFICE>
Message-ID: <000101c4c855$cb0cb700$a15741db@adkarve>

Dear Tom,
It is known that carbon dioxide liquifies at a relatively lower pressure
than methane. Liquid carbon dioxide is known to disolve many organic
substances, and it is likely that methane too dissolved in liquid carbon
dioxide. Do you think that the dissolution of methane in liquid carbon
dioxide might be the explanation for the phenomenon mentioned by you?
yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: TBReed <tombreed at comcast.net>
To: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 6:36 PM
Subject: Biogas compressibility

> Dear ADK and All:
>
> It may be a mistake to remove the CO2 (if they do) from biogas. It is
quite
> possible that the CO2 acts as a compression agent to make methane enough
> more compressible to more than compensate for its dilution effect on
> burning, so you get "more Btu's per cylinder".
>
> I'll see if I can find anyone who knows more about this, since the 2/3 CH4
> and 1/3 CO2 mixture coming from the disproportionation reaction
>
> 2 CH2O (carbohydrates) ==> CH4 + CO2
>
> MW 16 44
>
> is so ubiquitous in Nature.
>
> (Note that in the above equation the gas is 1/2 methane and 1/2 CO2.
Starch
> and cellulose disproportionate according to
> C6H10O5 ==> 2.5 CO2 + 3.5 CH4, 58% CH4 and 42% CO2, closer to what
> is observed from anaerobic digestion).
>
> Meanwhile, see if you can find out more about the South African Patents
> (CSIRO?)
>
> Onward, TOM REED
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "adkarve" <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> To: "Tom Reed" <tombreed at comcast.net>
> Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 3:26 AM
> Subject: Re: Gas compressability
>
>
> > Dear Tom,
> > a friend of mine visited South Africa. He told me that the S.African
> farmers
> > produced a lot of biogas. He reported that these farms were visited by
> > operators, who have gas compressors mounted on trucks. They go from to
> farm,
> > compress the biogas made by the farmers, most probably also remove the
> > carbon dioxide from the biogas, and fill the cpmpressed methane into
> > cylinders. The cylinders are left with the farmers. Once the methane is
in
> > cylinders, it has a much greater flexibility of use. He also told me
that
> > this process was developed by the South African Ministry of Atomic
Energy
> > and that it was patented.
> > Perhaps Cobus or Crispin can throw more light on it.
> > Yours
> > A.D.Karve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tom Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>
> > To: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> > Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>; <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:46 PM
> > Subject: Gas compressability
> >
> >
> > > Dear ADK and All:
> > >
> > > At high pressures like 200 atm gases behave very non ideally. You can
> get
> > > ~15% more methane into a cylinder than ideal gas law would predict.
> > >
> > > Mixing 20% hydrogen with methane to improve its combustion
> characteristics
> > > reduces its compressability by ~25%.
> > >
> > > Biogas is 2/3 methane, 1/3 CO2 and I suspect the CO2 will increase the
> > > compressability many fold. Someone needs to make tests... or apply
> > theory.
> > >
> > > At sufficient pressure and low temperature methane becomes a hydrate
> with
> > > water and there is more methane energy on the bottom of the deep
oceans
> > than
> > > all other fossil fuel combined.
> > >
> > > Anyone interested or volunteering?
> > >
> > > TOM REED THE COLORADO SCHOOL OF MINES
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "adkarve" <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> > > To: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
> > > Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] sugar to alcohol or sugar to biogas
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear Peter,
> > > > when cars use CNG they do not produce it in the car, but carry a
> > cylinder
> > > > that is filled with compressed CNG. You can use methane in exactly
the
> > > same
> > > > manner.
> > > > A.D.Karve
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> > > > To: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 9:03 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] sugar to alcohol or sugar to biogas
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear A.D.
> > > > >
> > > > > At 09:54 PM 10/19/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> > > > > >This refers to the discussion between Len Walde and Peter
> Springfield
> > > on
> > > > > >this subject.
> > > > >
> > > > > *******snipped*******
> > > > >
> > > > > >Alcohol, on
> > > > > >the hand, must be totally freed from water, before it can be be
> mixed
> > > > with
> > > > > >petrol to be used as gasohol in an internal combustion engine.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not true -- aguahol -- or 80% alcohol "rum" is a wonderful fuel as
> > is --
> > > > > and much easier to manufacture than pure ethanol -- but yes -- it
> > can't
> > > be
> > > > > blended with gasoline -- engines need changed air/fuel ratios --
to
> > > start
> > > > > with. And cold starting in the more northern countries will be a
> > > > problem --
> > > > >
> > > > > Brazil operated a large percentage of it;s vehicle on strong rum
> only
> > > for
> > > > > many years -- I believe the first Ford car was strong rum fuels --
> and
> > > > when
> > > > > I was young -- all racing motorcycles used "aguahol".
> > > > >
> > > > > The first diesel used peanut oil for fuel.
> > > > >
> > > > > >>Separation of
> > > > > >alcohol from water requires further input of energy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes -- and further processing and not of a passive nature.
> > > > >
> > > > > >>Another advantage of
> > > > > >methane is that there are no legal restrictions on its production
> or
> > > use,
> > > > > >whereas in the case of alcohol, its production, sale, storage and
> use
> > > all
> > > > > >require permission from the Government.
> > > > >
> > > > > And that is probably the most excellent point of all!
> > > > >
> > > > > I have not yet been able to find any data on the very neat turn
you
> > have
> > > > > taken in regards to bio digestion. All present state of the art
> > biomass
> > > > > digesters -- and all the science to go with that field -- appears
to
> > be
> > > > > fixated on using sewage.
> > > > >
> > > > > (As indeed every aspect of ethanol production is fixated on
> "pure" --
> > is
> > > > > terrifically difficult to make -- a very energy piggish (compared
to
> > > > making
> > > > > strong rum) process -- and totally out of the domain of rolling
your
> > own
> > > > in
> > > > > a 3rd world country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regarding high energy feed stocks for bio digesters --
> > > > >
> > > > > I believe your in the position to write the book on this.
> > > > >
> > > > > But unless a super fast digester can be designed small enough to
fit
> > on
> > > a
> > > > > vehicle and productive enough to power said vehicle on a
continuous
> > > basis
> > > > > -- I do not see applications to replace portable fuels.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the other hand -- for operating stationary power plants -- it
> might
> > > be
> > > > > an exciting new development.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now -- if you could produce butane -- then you would have a true
> > > portable
> > > > > fuel.
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter -- Belize
> > > > >
> > > > > >Yours
> > > > > >A.D.Karve
> > > > > >
> > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > >Stoves mailing list
> > > > > >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > > > > >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Stoves mailing list
> > > > Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > > > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> > >
> >
>

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Thu Nov 11 09:39:20 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:09:20 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression
References: <224502420@web.de>
Message-ID: <000201c4c855$dca20ec0$a15741db@adkarve>

Dear Juergen,
thanks for your E-mail.
The way described by you of removing carbon dioxide by dissolving it in
water under high pressure, is quite well known, and already being used for
purification of biogas. But the fact that blue green algae can be used as a
substrate for biogas production was new information for me. Thanks.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: juergen Lochbuehler-Enzmann <energy-juergen at web.de>
To: <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 2:09 PM
Subject: biogas compression

> Dear Dr. Karve,
> I am a subscriber to the stoves list and thus came to know your beautiful
development of the starch biogas system. I design and build high-speed
generator gas producers (partial combustion), but from past intensive
studies into biogas I remembered the following report from new scientist
some twenty years ago:
> A Swiss group called "green flamingo" (or "flamingo vert") was awarded ca.
20 thousand Deutschmarks for their work on Spirulina biogas. Their idea
included compression of the biogas with a vertical water piston compressor.
Simplicity itself. You need a vertical pressure tube, say 4 or 5 inches
diameter, with valves at the "cylinder head". Then you pump in water from
the bottom of the tube and the water column compresses the gas to say 20
atmospheres. Thus the CO2 dissolves in the water, while the rest of the gas
is discharged into a pressure vessel. If you use alkaline water, even H2S
might be reacted to some sulphuric salt in the water column. I never heard
nor read about said group again, but the idea might be useful. I recount
this article from memory, so forgive me any inaccuracies after more than
two decades.
> You may see photos of one of my gasifiers at
www.fotos.web.de/energy-juergen dating from 2002, the latest version is
smaller and more refined.
> Yours truly
> Juergen
> P.S. you may forward this message, if you think it merits dissemination.
> ________________________________________________________________
> Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
> Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193
>

From jeff.forssell at cfl.se Fri Nov 12 03:31:05 2004
From: jeff.forssell at cfl.se (Jeff Forssell)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:31:05 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression
Message-ID: <BA468CE631F86A4D831FCBD4EB1C692C4D7D67@floyd.cfl.local>

AS an old biogas buff, I was surprised by the spirulina-biogas connection, so I quickly Googled and found:
http://www.spirulinasource.com/earthfoodch8a.html
Where they use the carbondioxide produced in the biogas production to stimulate the growth of spirulina, a highly nutritious algae:" A simple gas separator separates biogas into methane (a fuel for cooking and lighting) and carbon dioxide (a nutrient for spirulina)." I this case the spirulina is not a substrate for the biogas production but puts the unburnable part of the gas to use. They seem to have projects in California, India, Togo and Peru. They also use the effluent as nutrient for spirulina.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org [mailto:stoves-
> bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of adkarve
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 4:39 PM
> To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
> Cc: juergen Lochbuehler-Enzmann
> Subject: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression
>
> Dear Juergen,
> thanks for your E-mail.
> The way described by you of removing carbon dioxide by dissolving it in
> water under high pressure, is quite well known, and already being used for
> purification of biogas. But the fact that blue green algae can be used as
> a
> substrate for biogas production was new information for me. Thanks.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Thu Nov 11 19:50:55 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:20:55 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] ARTI initiatives
Message-ID: <000001c4c8c2$bc8bb6a0$555741db@adkarve>

Dear Stovers,
we just completed a campaign called smoke free week, during the first week of November. We had sponsored radio talks all over the state of Maharashtra, and also held village level meetings covering about 350 villages in different parts of the state. Local voluntary agencies were roped in to collaborate with us. During the last year, we trained about 200 rural artisans in the construction of improved cookstoves, in making charcoal and also to act generally as rural energy entrepreneurs. At all the village level meetings, one of these entrepreneurs was also present. He was introduced to the villagers as the person who could install improved cookstoves in their households. The response was generally quite good. We have not received reports from all the meetings, but it appears that orders for at least 10,000 improved cookstoves were generated as a result of this campaign.

The Shell Foundation has funded a visit by an Approvecho Team to India to conduct cookstove camps. One camp has already been completed in the State of Uttar Pradesh and the next one, in the State of Maharashtra, would be organised by us at Phaltan. The camp would be held from the 18th to the the 22nd of November.

On the 8th of November, at a small ceremony organised in New Delhi by the United States Embassy, the document, formally stating that ARTI has been given by USEPA the contract for standardisation and commercialization of the compact biogas plant, was handed over to me. At a press conference held in connection with this ceremony, I explained the concept of the compact biogas plant to the representatives of the press. The news item appeared the next day in a few newspapers. In spite of the fact that I had given to each one of them a printed version as well as a photograph of the compact biogas plant, most of them published a very garbled version. The Indian Express even printed a photograph of our charcoaling kiln under the caption of the compact biogas plant. This really makes me wonder about the truth of the news that one reads in the newspapers. Has President Bush really won the U.S. Presidential Election? Had a war really taken place in Iraq? Has Saddam Hussain really been arrested? Is Arafat really in a hospital?
Yours
Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
Pune, Maharashtra, India.

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Fri Nov 12 09:16:27 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:16:27 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] ARTI initiatives
In-Reply-To: <000001c4c8c2$bc8bb6a0$555741db@adkarve>
Message-ID: <002d01c4c8ca$95188e60$1900a8c0@a31server>

AD, Your guess is as good as mine.

But I will say "Congratulations" on the EPA contract.

Greg Manning

Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of adkarve
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 7:51 PM
To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
Subject: [Stoves] ARTI initiatives

Dear Stovers,
we just completed a campaign called smoke free week, during the first week
of November. We had sponsored radio talks all over the state of Maharashtra,
and also held village level meetings covering about 350 villages in
different parts of the state. Local voluntary agencies were roped in to
collaborate with us. During the last year, we trained about 200 rural
artisans in the construction of improved cookstoves, in making charcoal and
also to act generally as rural energy entrepreneurs. At all the village
level meetings, one of these entrepreneurs was also present. He was
introduced to the villagers as the person who could install improved
cookstoves in their households. The response was generally quite good. We
have not received reports from all the meetings, but it appears that orders
for at least 10,000 improved cookstoves were generated as a result of this
campaign.

The Shell Foundation has funded a visit by an Approvecho Team to India to
conduct cookstove camps. One camp has already been completed in the State of
Uttar Pradesh and the next one, in the State of Maharashtra, would be
organised by us at Phaltan. The camp would be held from the 18th to the the
22nd of November.

On the 8th of November, at a small ceremony organised in New Delhi by the
United States Embassy, the document, formally stating that ARTI has been
given by USEPA the contract for standardisation and commercialization of the
compact biogas plant, was handed over to me. At a press conference held in
connection with this ceremony, I explained the concept of the compact biogas
plant to the representatives of the press. The news item appeared the next
day in a few newspapers. In spite of the fact that I had given to each one
of them a printed version as well as a photograph of the compact biogas
plant, most of them published a very garbled version. The Indian Express
even printed a photograph of our charcoaling kiln under the caption of the
compact biogas plant. This really makes me wonder about the truth of the
news that one reads in the newspapers. Has President Bush really won the
U.S. Presidential Election? Had a war really taken place in Iraq? Has Saddam
Hussain really been arrested? Is Arafat really in a hospital?
Yours
Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
Pune, Maharashtra, India.
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From phoenix98604 at earthlink.net Fri Nov 12 09:29:14 2004
From: phoenix98604 at earthlink.net (Art Krenzel)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:29:14 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression
References: <BA468CE631F86A4D831FCBD4EB1C692C4D7D67@floyd.cfl.local>
Message-ID: <002901c4c8cc$5f04cc10$06bdf204@7k6rv21>

Jeff,

What might "A simple gas separator" to separate carbon dioxide from methane
look like?

Art Krenzel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Forssell" <jeff.forssell at cfl.se>
To: "adkarve" <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
Cc: "juergen Lochbuehler-Enzmann" <energy-juergen at web.de>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 1:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression

AS an old biogas buff, I was surprised by the spirulina-biogas connection,
so I quickly Googled and found:
http://www.spirulinasource.com/earthfoodch8a.html
Where they use the carbondioxide produced in the biogas production to
stimulate the growth of spirulina, a highly nutritious algae:" A simple gas
separator separates biogas into methane (a fuel for cooking and lighting)
and carbon dioxide (a nutrient for spirulina)." I this case the spirulina is
not a substrate for the biogas production but puts the unburnable part of
the gas to use. They seem to have projects in California, India, Togo and
Peru. They also use the effluent as nutrient for spirulina.

From snkm at btl.net Fri Nov 12 10:01:46 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:01:46 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041112094241.009fdc90@pop.btl.net>

Thanks for this fine introduction to this technology -- is there any way
one can purchase a number of these??

Peter Singfield -- Belize

At 11:40 AM 11/11/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Subject: Ethanol Stove
>From: "akraj at pn2" <akraj at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:13:45 +0530
>
>Dear friends,
>
>We are happy to inform you that we have developed a simple ethanol stove
which can run on 50% and above ethanol/water mixture. The power of stove is
2.5 kW(thermal). The details are given in;
http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/ethstove.pdf
>
>Shortly we will test 10 of these units in rural homes nearby.
>
>Cheers.
>
>Anil K Rajvanshi, Ph.D.
>Director
>Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
>Phaltan-Lonand Road, Tambmal,
>P.O.Box 44, Phaltan - 415523
>Maharashtra, India
>
>Ph: 91-2166-222396
>Fax: 91-2166-220945
>
>http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net
>http://www.nariphaltan.org
>--
>___________________________________________________________
>Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
>http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From karabi at shellfoundation.net Fri Nov 12 11:13:32 2004
From: karabi at shellfoundation.net (Karabi Dutta)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:43:32 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Biogas Compression
References: <20041112160925.DABB3293D5@ns2.misteam.net>
Message-ID: <000801c4c8da$f27fbd20$8de9d6d2@q2n0f4>

Dear Dr Karve,

A compact unit that scrubs and compresses biogas for use an
alternative motor fuel is available in the market.

Biogas is also successfully compressed for use as an alternative
transportation fuel in light- and heavy-duty vehicles. To obtain usable
methane, the biogas is scrubbed of its carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide, and
water. After scrubbing, the technique of fueling with biogas is basically
the same as that used for compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicles. Although
only a few thousand vehicles are using biogas, it is estimated that
worldwide around one million vehicles are now using CNG as a transportation
fuel.

For more information, please look up the following website:
http://www.biogasworks.com/Index/Energy%20&%20AD.htm

Regards,
Karabi Dutta

---------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: <stoves-request at listserv.repp.org>
To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:39 PM
Subject: Stoves Digest, Vol 4, Issue 17

> Send Stoves mailing list submissions to
> stoves at listserv.repp.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> stoves-request at listserv.repp.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> stoves-owner at listserv.repp.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Biogas compressibility (adkarve)
> 2. Re: biogas compression (adkarve)
> 3. RE: Re: biogas compression (Jeff Forssell)
> 4. ARTI initiatives (adkarve)
> 5. RE: ARTI initiatives (a31ford)
> 6. Re: Re: biogas compression (Art Krenzel)
> 7. Re: Forwrding enthanol stove (Peter Singfield)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:05:44 +0530
> From: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Subject: [Stoves] Re: Biogas compressibility
> To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <000101c4c855$cb0cb700$a15741db at adkarve>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Dear Tom,
> It is known that carbon dioxide liquifies at a relatively lower pressure
> than methane. Liquid carbon dioxide is known to disolve many organic
> substances, and it is likely that methane too dissolved in liquid carbon
> dioxide. Do you think that the dissolution of methane in liquid carbon
> dioxide might be the explanation for the phenomenon mentioned by you?
> yours
> A.D.Karve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: TBReed <tombreed at comcast.net>
> To: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 6:36 PM
> Subject: Biogas compressibility
>
>
> > Dear ADK and All:
> >
> > It may be a mistake to remove the CO2 (if they do) from biogas. It is
> quite
> > possible that the CO2 acts as a compression agent to make methane enough
> > more compressible to more than compensate for its dilution effect on
> > burning, so you get "more Btu's per cylinder".
> >
> > I'll see if I can find anyone who knows more about this, since the 2/3
CH4
> > and 1/3 CO2 mixture coming from the disproportionation reaction
> >
> > 2 CH2O (carbohydrates) ==> CH4 + CO2
> >
> > MW 16 44
> >
> > is so ubiquitous in Nature.
> >
> > (Note that in the above equation the gas is 1/2 methane and 1/2 CO2.
> Starch
> > and cellulose disproportionate according to
> > C6H10O5 ==> 2.5 CO2 + 3.5 CH4, 58% CH4 and 42% CO2, closer to
what
> > is observed from anaerobic digestion).
> >
> > Meanwhile, see if you can find out more about the South African Patents
> > (CSIRO?)
> >
> > Onward, TOM REED
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "adkarve" <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> > To: "Tom Reed" <tombreed at comcast.net>
> > Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 3:26 AM
> > Subject: Re: Gas compressability
> >
> >
> > > Dear Tom,
> > > a friend of mine visited South Africa. He told me that the S.African
> > farmers
> > > produced a lot of biogas. He reported that these farms were visited by
> > > operators, who have gas compressors mounted on trucks. They go from to
> > farm,
> > > compress the biogas made by the farmers, most probably also remove the
> > > carbon dioxide from the biogas, and fill the cpmpressed methane into
> > > cylinders. The cylinders are left with the farmers. Once the methane
is
> in
> > > cylinders, it has a much greater flexibility of use. He also told me
> that
> > > this process was developed by the South African Ministry of Atomic
> Energy
> > > and that it was patented.
> > > Perhaps Cobus or Crispin can throw more light on it.
> > > Yours
> > > A.D.Karve
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Tom Reed <tombreed at comcast.net>
> > > To: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>; Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> > > Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>; <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:46 PM
> > > Subject: Gas compressability
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear ADK and All:
> > > >
> > > > At high pressures like 200 atm gases behave very non ideally. You
can
> > get
> > > > ~15% more methane into a cylinder than ideal gas law would predict.
> > > >
> > > > Mixing 20% hydrogen with methane to improve its combustion
> > characteristics
> > > > reduces its compressability by ~25%.
> > > >
> > > > Biogas is 2/3 methane, 1/3 CO2 and I suspect the CO2 will increase
the
> > > > compressability many fold. Someone needs to make tests... or apply
> > > theory.
> > > >
> > > > At sufficient pressure and low temperature methane becomes a hydrate
> > with
> > > > water and there is more methane energy on the bottom of the deep
> oceans
> > > than
> > > > all other fossil fuel combined.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone interested or volunteering?
> > > >
> > > > TOM REED THE COLORADO SCHOOL OF MINES
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "adkarve" <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> > > > To: "Peter Singfield" <snkm at btl.net>
> > > > Cc: <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:32 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] sugar to alcohol or sugar to biogas
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Peter,
> > > > > when cars use CNG they do not produce it in the car, but carry a
> > > cylinder
> > > > > that is filled with compressed CNG. You can use methane in exactly
> the
> > > > same
> > > > > manner.
> > > > > A.D.Karve
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> > > > > To: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 9:03 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Stoves] sugar to alcohol or sugar to biogas
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear A.D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 09:54 PM 10/19/2004 +0530, adkarve wrote:
> > > > > > >This refers to the discussion between Len Walde and Peter
> > Springfield
> > > > on
> > > > > > >this subject.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *******snipped*******
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Alcohol, on
> > > > > > >the hand, must be totally freed from water, before it can be be
> > mixed
> > > > > with
> > > > > > >petrol to be used as gasohol in an internal combustion engine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not true -- aguahol -- or 80% alcohol "rum" is a wonderful fuel
as
> > > is --
> > > > > > and much easier to manufacture than pure ethanol -- but yes --
it
> > > can't
> > > > be
> > > > > > blended with gasoline -- engines need changed air/fuel ratios --
> to
> > > > start
> > > > > > with. And cold starting in the more northern countries will be a
> > > > > problem --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brazil operated a large percentage of it;s vehicle on strong rum
> > only
> > > > for
> > > > > > many years -- I believe the first Ford car was strong rum
fuels --
> > and
> > > > > when
> > > > > > I was young -- all racing motorcycles used "aguahol".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The first diesel used peanut oil for fuel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>Separation of
> > > > > > >alcohol from water requires further input of energy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes -- and further processing and not of a passive nature.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>Another advantage of
> > > > > > >methane is that there are no legal restrictions on its
production
> > or
> > > > use,
> > > > > > >whereas in the case of alcohol, its production, sale, storage
and
> > use
> > > > all
> > > > > > >require permission from the Government.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And that is probably the most excellent point of all!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have not yet been able to find any data on the very neat turn
> you
> > > have
> > > > > > taken in regards to bio digestion. All present state of the art
> > > biomass
> > > > > > digesters -- and all the science to go with that field --
appears
> to
> > > be
> > > > > > fixated on using sewage.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (As indeed every aspect of ethanol production is fixated on
> > "pure" --
> > > is
> > > > > > terrifically difficult to make -- a very energy piggish
(compared
> to
> > > > > making
> > > > > > strong rum) process -- and totally out of the domain of rolling
> your
> > > own
> > > > > in
> > > > > > a 3rd world country.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regarding high energy feed stocks for bio digesters --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe your in the position to write the book on this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But unless a super fast digester can be designed small enough to
> fit
> > > on
> > > > a
> > > > > > vehicle and productive enough to power said vehicle on a
> continuous
> > > > basis
> > > > > > -- I do not see applications to replace portable fuels.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On the other hand -- for operating stationary power plants -- it
> > might
> > > > be
> > > > > > an exciting new development.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now -- if you could produce butane -- then you would have a true
> > > > portable
> > > > > > fuel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Peter -- Belize
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Yours
> > > > > > >A.D.Karve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > > >Stoves mailing list
> > > > > > >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > > > > > >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Stoves mailing list
> > > > > Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > > > > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:09:20 +0530
> From: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Subject: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression
> To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
> Cc: juergen Lochbuehler-Enzmann <energy-juergen at web.de>
> Message-ID: <000201c4c855$dca20ec0$a15741db at adkarve>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Dear Juergen,
> thanks for your E-mail.
> The way described by you of removing carbon dioxide by dissolving it in
> water under high pressure, is quite well known, and already being used for
> purification of biogas. But the fact that blue green algae can be used as
a
> substrate for biogas production was new information for me. Thanks.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: juergen Lochbuehler-Enzmann <energy-juergen at web.de>
> To: <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 2:09 PM
> Subject: biogas compression
>
>
> > Dear Dr. Karve,
> > I am a subscriber to the stoves list and thus came to know your
beautiful
> development of the starch biogas system. I design and build high-speed
> generator gas producers (partial combustion), but from past intensive
> studies into biogas I remembered the following report from new scientist
> some twenty years ago:
> > A Swiss group called "green flamingo" (or "flamingo vert") was awarded
ca.
> 20 thousand Deutschmarks for their work on Spirulina biogas. Their idea
> included compression of the biogas with a vertical water piston
compressor.
> Simplicity itself. You need a vertical pressure tube, say 4 or 5 inches
> diameter, with valves at the "cylinder head". Then you pump in water from
> the bottom of the tube and the water column compresses the gas to say 20
> atmospheres. Thus the CO2 dissolves in the water, while the rest of the
gas
> is discharged into a pressure vessel. If you use alkaline water, even H2S
> might be reacted to some sulphuric salt in the water column. I never
heard
> nor read about said group again, but the idea might be useful. I recount
> this article from memory, so forgive me any inaccuracies after more than
> two decades.
> > You may see photos of one of my gasifiers at
> www.fotos.web.de/energy-juergen dating from 2002, the latest version is
> smaller and more refined.
> > Yours truly
> > Juergen
> > P.S. you may forward this message, if you think it merits dissemination.
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
> > Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:31:05 +0100
> From: "Jeff Forssell" <jeff.forssell at cfl.se>
> Subject: RE: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression
> To: "adkarve" <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>, <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> Cc: juergen Lochbuehler-Enzmann <energy-juergen at web.de>
> Message-ID: <BA468CE631F86A4D831FCBD4EB1C692C4D7D67 at floyd.cfl.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> AS an old biogas buff, I was surprised by the spirulina-biogas connection,
so I quickly Googled and found:
> http://www.spirulinasource.com/earthfoodch8a.html
> Where they use the carbondioxide produced in the biogas production to
stimulate the growth of spirulina, a highly nutritious algae:" A simple gas
separator separates biogas into methane (a fuel for cooking and lighting)
and carbon dioxide (a nutrient for spirulina)." I this case the spirulina is
not a substrate for the biogas production but puts the unburnable part of
the gas to use. They seem to have projects in California, India, Togo and
Peru. They also use the effluent as nutrient for spirulina.
>
> Yours truly,
> Jeff Forssell
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Jeff Forssell
> Fil. Lic. in Physics
> Swedish Agency for Flexible Learning (CFL)
> Phone: +46 (0)611-55 79 48
> Mobile: +46 (0)70 35 80 306
> Box 3024, SE-871 03 H?RN?SAND /Sweden
> http://www.cfl.se/?sid=60
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org [mailto:stoves-
> > bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of adkarve
> > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 4:39 PM
> > To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
> > Cc: juergen Lochbuehler-Enzmann
> > Subject: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression
> >
> > Dear Juergen,
> > thanks for your E-mail.
> > The way described by you of removing carbon dioxide by dissolving it in
> > water under high pressure, is quite well known, and already being used
for
> > purification of biogas. But the fact that blue green algae can be used
as
> > a
> > substrate for biogas production was new information for me. Thanks.
> > Yours
> > A.D.Karve
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:20:55 +0530
> From: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Subject: [Stoves] ARTI initiatives
> To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
> Message-ID: <000001c4c8c2$bc8bb6a0$555741db at adkarve>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Dear Stovers,
> we just completed a campaign called smoke free week, during the first week
of November. We had sponsored radio talks all over the state of Maharashtra,
and also held village level meetings covering about 350 villages in
different parts of the state. Local voluntary agencies were roped in to
collaborate with us. During the last year, we trained about 200 rural
artisans in the construction of improved cookstoves, in making charcoal and
also to act generally as rural energy entrepreneurs. At all the village
level meetings, one of these entrepreneurs was also present. He was
introduced to the villagers as the person who could install improved
cookstoves in their households. The response was generally quite good. We
have not received reports from all the meetings, but it appears that orders
for at least 10,000 improved cookstoves were generated as a result of this
campaign.
>
> The Shell Foundation has funded a visit by an Approvecho Team to India to
conduct cookstove camps. One camp has already been completed in the State of
Uttar Pradesh and the next one, in the State of Maharashtra, would be
organised by us at Phaltan. The camp would be held from the 18th to the the
22nd of November.
>
> On the 8th of November, at a small ceremony organised in New Delhi by the
United States Embassy, the document, formally stating that ARTI has been
given by USEPA the contract for standardisation and commercialization of the
compact biogas plant, was handed over to me. At a press conference held in
connection with this ceremony, I explained the concept of the compact biogas
plant to the representatives of the press. The news item appeared the next
day in a few newspapers. In spite of the fact that I had given to each one
of them a printed version as well as a photograph of the compact biogas
plant, most of them published a very garbled version. The Indian Express
even printed a photograph of our charcoaling kiln under the caption of the
compact biogas plant. This really makes me wonder about the truth of the
news that one reads in the newspapers. Has President Bush really won the
U.S. Presidential Election? Had a war really taken place in Iraq? Has Saddam
Hussain really been
> arrested? Is Arafat really in a hospital?
> Yours
> Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
> Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
> Pune, Maharashtra, India.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:16:27 -0600
> From: "a31ford" <a31ford at inetlink.ca>
> Subject: RE: [Stoves] ARTI initiatives
> To: "STOVES (E-mail)" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
> Message-ID: <002d01c4c8ca$95188e60$1900a8c0 at a31server>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> AD, Your guess is as good as mine.
>
> But I will say "Congratulations" on the EPA contract.
>
>
> Greg Manning
>
> Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of adkarve
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 7:51 PM
> To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
> Subject: [Stoves] ARTI initiatives
>
>
> Dear Stovers,
> we just completed a campaign called smoke free week, during the first week
> of November. We had sponsored radio talks all over the state of
Maharashtra,
> and also held village level meetings covering about 350 villages in
> different parts of the state. Local voluntary agencies were roped in to
> collaborate with us. During the last year, we trained about 200 rural
> artisans in the construction of improved cookstoves, in making charcoal
and
> also to act generally as rural energy entrepreneurs. At all the village
> level meetings, one of these entrepreneurs was also present. He was
> introduced to the villagers as the person who could install improved
> cookstoves in their households. The response was generally quite good. We
> have not received reports from all the meetings, but it appears that
orders
> for at least 10,000 improved cookstoves were generated as a result of this
> campaign.
>
> The Shell Foundation has funded a visit by an Approvecho Team to India to
> conduct cookstove camps. One camp has already been completed in the State
of
> Uttar Pradesh and the next one, in the State of Maharashtra, would be
> organised by us at Phaltan. The camp would be held from the 18th to the
the
> 22nd of November.
>
> On the 8th of November, at a small ceremony organised in New Delhi by the
> United States Embassy, the document, formally stating that ARTI has been
> given by USEPA the contract for standardisation and commercialization of
the
> compact biogas plant, was handed over to me. At a press conference held in
> connection with this ceremony, I explained the concept of the compact
biogas
> plant to the representatives of the press. The news item appeared the next
> day in a few newspapers. In spite of the fact that I had given to each one
> of them a printed version as well as a photograph of the compact biogas
> plant, most of them published a very garbled version. The Indian Express
> even printed a photograph of our charcoaling kiln under the caption of the
> compact biogas plant. This really makes me wonder about the truth of the
> news that one reads in the newspapers. Has President Bush really won the
> U.S. Presidential Election? Had a war really taken place in Iraq? Has
Saddam
> Hussain really been arrested? Is Arafat really in a hospital?
> Yours
> Dr.A.D.Karve, President,
> Appropriate Rural Technology Institute,
> Pune, Maharashtra, India.
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 07:29:14 -0800
> From: "Art Krenzel" <phoenix98604 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression
> To: "Jeff Forssell" <jeff.forssell at cfl.se>, "adkarve"
> <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>, <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> Cc: juergen Lochbuehler-Enzmann <energy-juergen at web.de>
> Message-ID: <002901c4c8cc$5f04cc10$06bdf204 at 7k6rv21>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Jeff,
>
> What might "A simple gas separator" to separate carbon dioxide from
methane
> look like?
>
> Art Krenzel
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Forssell" <jeff.forssell at cfl.se>
> To: "adkarve" <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>; <STOVES at listserv.repp.org>
> Cc: "juergen Lochbuehler-Enzmann" <energy-juergen at web.de>
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 1:31 AM
> Subject: RE: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression
>
>
> AS an old biogas buff, I was surprised by the spirulina-biogas connection,
> so I quickly Googled and found:
> http://www.spirulinasource.com/earthfoodch8a.html
> Where they use the carbondioxide produced in the biogas production to
> stimulate the growth of spirulina, a highly nutritious algae:" A simple
gas
> separator separates biogas into methane (a fuel for cooking and lighting)
> and carbon dioxide (a nutrient for spirulina)." I this case the spirulina
is
> not a substrate for the biogas production but puts the unburnable part of
> the gas to use. They seem to have projects in California, India, Togo and
> Peru. They also use the effluent as nutrient for spirulina.
>
> Yours truly,
> Jeff Forssell
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Jeff Forssell
> Fil. Lic. in Physics
> Swedish Agency for Flexible Learning (CFL)
> Phone: +46 (0)611-55 79 48
> Mobile: +46 (0)70 35 80 306
> Box 3024, SE-871 03 H?RN?SAND /Sweden
> http://www.cfl.se/?sid=60
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org [mailto:stoves-
> > bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of adkarve
> > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 4:39 PM
> > To: STOVES at listserv.repp.org
> > Cc: juergen Lochbuehler-Enzmann
> > Subject: [Stoves] Re: biogas compression
> >
> > Dear Juergen,
> > thanks for your E-mail.
> > The way described by you of removing carbon dioxide by dissolving it in
> > water under high pressure, is quite well known, and already being used
for
> > purification of biogas. But the fact that blue green algae can be used
as
> > a
> > substrate for biogas production was new information for me. Thanks.
> > Yours
> > A.D.Karve
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:01:46 -0600
> From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove
> To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041112094241.009fdc90 at pop.btl.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Thanks for this fine introduction to this technology -- is there any way
> one can purchase a number of these??
>
> Peter Singfield -- Belize
>
> At 11:40 AM 11/11/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >Subject: Ethanol Stove
> >From: "akraj at pn2" <akraj at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> >Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:13:45 +0530
> >
> >Dear friends,
> >
> >We are happy to inform you that we have developed a simple ethanol stove
> which can run on 50% and above ethanol/water mixture. The power of stove
is
> 2.5 kW(thermal). The details are given in;
> http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/ethstove.pdf
> >
> >Shortly we will test 10 of these units in rural homes nearby.
> >
> >Cheers.
> >
> >Anil K Rajvanshi, Ph.D.
> >Director
> >Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
> >Phaltan-Lonand Road, Tambmal,
> >P.O.Box 44, Phaltan - 415523
> >Maharashtra, India
> >
> >Ph: 91-2166-222396
> >Fax: 91-2166-220945
> >
> >http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net
> >http://www.nariphaltan.org
> >--
> >___________________________________________________________
> >Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> >http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Stoves mailing list
> >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 4, Issue 17
> *************************************

From ken at basterfield.com Fri Nov 12 11:27:48 2004
From: ken at basterfield.com (Ken Basterfield)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:27:48 -0000
Subject: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20041112094241.009fdc90@pop.btl.net>
Message-ID: <006201c4c8dc$f24dc5c0$6502a8c0@KenThinkPad>

How does this differ from a 'Primus' type kerosene stove?
Ken

I've stopped 17,309 spam messages. You can too!
One month FREE spam protection at
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-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Singfield
Sent: 12 November 2004 16:02
To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove

Thanks for this fine introduction to this technology -- is there any way
one can purchase a number of these??

Peter Singfield -- Belize

At 11:40 AM 11/11/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Subject: Ethanol Stove
>From: "akraj at pn2" <akraj at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:13:45 +0530
>
>Dear friends,
>
>We are happy to inform you that we have developed a simple ethanol
stove
which can run on 50% and above ethanol/water mixture. The power of stove
is
2.5 kW(thermal). The details are given in;
http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/ethstove.pdf
>
>Shortly we will test 10 of these units in rural homes nearby.
>
>Cheers.
>
>Anil K Rajvanshi, Ph.D.
>Director
>Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
>Phaltan-Lonand Road, Tambmal,
>P.O.Box 44, Phaltan - 415523
>Maharashtra, India
>
>Ph: 91-2166-222396
>Fax: 91-2166-220945
>
>http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net
>http://www.nariphaltan.org
>--
>___________________________________________________________
>Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
>http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From english at kingston.net Fri Nov 12 17:55:23 2004
From: english at kingston.net (Alex English)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:55:23 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
Message-ID: <4195071B.25328.493A131@localhost>

Hello all,
This query is a bit peripheral to your usual discussions. I am currently
working on automatic ignition for a wood fueled heating stove. The
process begins with loading wood, paper and kindling into a freshly
cleaned out stove that has residual heat in the fire brick perhaps up to
200C. The result is that something more than water is driven off. Certainly
some of it has a distinctive aroma that ultimately found its way in to the house
after the chimney cools.

So, what compounds are evolved from wood
at these temperatures?

Anyone.

Thanks, Alex English

From anilrajvanshi at vsnl.com Fri Nov 12 19:25:16 2004
From: anilrajvanshi at vsnl.com (anilrajvanshi at vsnl.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 06:25:16 +0500
Subject: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove
Message-ID: <67217b6740a3.6740a367217b@vsnl.net>

Quite substantially since there is a pressure regulating valve, flame controller and also the evaporation is of two liquids rather than kerosine alone. The basic idea of this stove though came from Primus stove.

Anil

----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Basterfield <ken at basterfield.com>
Date: Friday, November 12, 2004 10:57 pm
Subject: RE: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove

> How does this differ from a 'Primus' type kerosene stove?
> Ken
>
>
>
> I've stopped 17,309 spam messages. You can too!
> One month FREE spam protection at
> http://www.cloudmark.com/spamnetsig/?rc=f4n4hl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
> [stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Singfield
> Sent: 12 November 2004 16:02
> To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove
>
>
> Thanks for this fine introduction to this technology -- is there
> any way
> one can purchase a number of these??
>
> Peter Singfield -- Belize
>
> At 11:40 AM 11/11/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >Subject: Ethanol Stove
> >From: "akraj at pn2" <akraj at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> >Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:13:45 +0530
> >
> >Dear friends,
> >
> >We are happy to inform you that we have developed a simple ethanol
> stove
> which can run on 50% and above ethanol/water mixture. The power of
> stoveis
> 2.5 kW(thermal). The details are given in;
> http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/ethstove.pdf
> >
> >Shortly we will test 10 of these units in rural homes nearby.
> >
> >Cheers.
> >
> >Anil K Rajvanshi, Ph.D.
> >Director
> >Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
> >Phaltan-Lonand Road, Tambmal,
> >P.O.Box 44, Phaltan - 415523
> >Maharashtra, India
> >
> >Ph: 91-2166-222396
> >Fax: 91-2166-220945
> >
> >http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net
> >http://www.nariphaltan.org
> >--
> >___________________________________________________________
> >Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> >http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Stoves mailing list
> >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

Anil K Rajvanshi
Director
Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute
P.O.Box 44, Phaltan 415523
Maharashtra, India

Ph: 02166-222396/220945
Fax: 02166-220945

From anilrajvanshi at vsnl.com Fri Nov 12 19:26:30 2004
From: anilrajvanshi at vsnl.com (anilrajvanshi at vsnl.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 06:26:30 +0500
Subject: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove
Message-ID: <65d61b6618fd.6618fd65d61b@vsnl.net>

After we do the field trials then we will be in a position to sell them.

----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Singfield <snkm at btl.net>
Date: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:31 pm
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove

>
> Thanks for this fine introduction to this technology -- is there
> any way
> one can purchase a number of these??
>
> Peter Singfield -- Belize
>
> At 11:40 AM 11/11/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >Subject: Ethanol Stove
> >From: "akraj at pn2" <akraj at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> >Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:13:45 +0530
> >
> >Dear friends,
> >
> >We are happy to inform you that we have developed a simple
> ethanol stove
> which can run on 50% and above ethanol/water mixture. The power of
> stove is
> 2.5 kW(thermal). The details are given in;
> http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/ethstove.pdf
> >
> >Shortly we will test 10 of these units in rural homes nearby.
> >
> >Cheers.
> >
> >Anil K Rajvanshi, Ph.D.
> >Director
> >Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
> >Phaltan-Lonand Road, Tambmal,
> >P.O.Box 44, Phaltan - 415523
> >Maharashtra, India
> >
> >Ph: 91-2166-222396
> >Fax: 91-2166-220945
> >
> >http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net
> >http://www.nariphaltan.org
> >--
> >___________________________________________________________
> >Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
> >http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Stoves mailing list
> >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

Anil K Rajvanshi
Director
Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute
P.O.Box 44, Phaltan 415523
Maharashtra, India

Ph: 02166-222396/220945
Fax: 02166-220945

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Nov 13 05:12:14 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:12:14 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
In-Reply-To: <4195071B.25328.493A131@localhost>
References: <4195071B.25328.493A131@localhost>
Message-ID: <31qbp017po2crs2j7rm88l8vemnh71uvmq@4ax.com>

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:55:23 -0500, Alex English wrote:

>Hello all,
>This query is a bit peripheral to your usual discussions. I am currently
>working on automatic ignition for a wood fueled heating stove. The
> process begins with loading wood, paper and kindling into a freshly
> cleaned out stove that has residual heat in the fire brick perhaps up to
> 200C. The result is that something more than water is driven off. Certainly
>some of it has a distinctive aroma that ultimately found its way in to the house
> after the chimney cools.

Hi Alex, good to here from you, I'll guess the compounds you are
smelling are the volatile aromatic compounds, these are given off from
ambient temperatures upward and as wood is burned they are the
precursors of pyrolysis. Generally they are reckoned not to be a
problem below 150C. Having said that a UK report has suggested living
trees are significant (particularly a poplar) contributor in urban
environments.

I'm glad you added that the aroma is only apparent as the chimney
cools, otherwise one might suspect a poor draw or leaky flue.

We discussed one type of VOC when considering resin torches, these are
terpenes and they and their incomplete combustion products are
implicated as carcinogens. The VOC from wood that is considered very
dangerous is Benzo a pyrene, I thought this was only a product of
incomplete combustion rather than a VOC but I am now unsure of the
distinction between poly cyclic aromatic compounds and VOCs,
previously I had thought a VOC was defined by its vapour pressure at a
given temperature.
A definition I found:

"Any chemical compound based on carbon chains or rings (and also
containing
hydrogen) with a vapour pressure greater than 2mm of mercury (0.27
kPa) at 250 C,
excluding methane.
Note :
1. These compounds may contain oxygen, nitrogen and other elements,
but specifically excluded are
carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, carbonic acid, metallic carbides and
carbonate salts"

As you will realise this high temperature (250C) classes much of the
pyrolysis offgas as VOC.

Apart from energy considerations this is one reason we kept our high
speed drying separate from the combustion process.

Greg Manning may be able to comment as his monorater might put out
water contaminated by PAHs, though they are actually insoluble in
water.

It's interesting how sensitive the nose is and how these aromatic
compounds diffuse through the air, I find I can identify different
species burning and the smell form attempts to burn wet wood is quite
distinctive, suggesting different PAHs are involved.

I have an oven in an outhouse where I dry samples and the smell from
this is also quite characteristic as the drying goes on, I can just
about detect the "tang" of acetic acid as I complete drying and
pyrolysis is incipient.

a google finds a definition for VOCs and exceptions at
http://www.ronjoseph.com/Q&A/permits_q20.htm

AJH

From kchisholm at ca.inter.net Sat Nov 13 05:43:27 2004
From: kchisholm at ca.inter.net (Kevin Chisholm)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:43:27 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
References: <4195071B.25328.493A131@localhost>
<31qbp017po2crs2j7rm88l8vemnh71uvmq@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <005701c4c976$0cd3fd80$af9a0a40@kevin>

Dear Alex and Andrew

It is very interesting that you bring up this thread!! When I burn slash
from Poplar in a cold fire, the smoke coming off it can, under certain
circumstances, have the most wonderful "woodsy perfume fragrance". It is
something like a sweet cedar fragrance, and is very pleasant. I have all
kinds of trash Poplar on my place, and I was wondering if there is a process
for extracting this fragrance? It could be a very nice fun project in my
dotage.

I presume the "active ingredients" of this fragrance are only in the bark,
and not in the woody portion of the tree. This would suggest some sort of
"bark distillation with partial oxidation" as a basic process. Is there
perhaps a way to extract such a fragrance without the need for partial
oxidation? I am guessing that the partial oxidation may be difficult to
control.

Kindest regards,

Kevin

----- Original Message -----
From: <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:55:23 -0500, Alex English wrote:

>Hello all,
>This query is a bit peripheral to your usual discussions. I am currently
>working on automatic ignition for a wood fueled heating stove. The
> process begins with loading wood, paper and kindling into a freshly
> cleaned out stove that has residual heat in the fire brick perhaps up to
> 200C. The result is that something more than water is driven off.
Certainly
>some of it has a distinctive aroma that ultimately found its way in to the
house
> after the chimney cools.

I'm glad you added that the aroma is only apparent as the chimney
cools, otherwise one might suspect a poor draw or leaky flue.

As you will realise this high temperature (250C) classes much of the
pyrolysis offgas as VOC.

Apart from energy considerations this is one reason we kept our high
speed drying separate from the combustion process.

Greg Manning may be able to comment as his monorater might put out
water contaminated by PAHs, though they are actually insoluble in
water.

a google finds a definition for VOCs and exceptions at
http://www.ronjoseph.com/Q&A/permits_q20.htm

AJH
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Nov 13 06:04:02 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:04:02 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
In-Reply-To: <005701c4c976$0cd3fd80$af9a0a40@kevin>
References: <4195071B.25328.493A131@localhost>
<31qbp017po2crs2j7rm88l8vemnh71uvmq@4ax.com>
<005701c4c976$0cd3fd80$af9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <6stbp01gccb2ae0jtirjtar12qehegub0g@4ax.com>

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:43:27 -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:

>I presume the "active ingredients" of this fragrance are only in the bark,
>and not in the woody portion of the tree. This would suggest some sort of
>"bark distillation with partial oxidation" as a basic process. Is there
>perhaps a way to extract such a fragrance without the need for partial
>oxidation? I am guessing that the partial oxidation may be difficult to
>control.

Firstly I don't know, I did work for a period with a charity who
purported to be supporting the use of local products locally, they
were very successful at attracting government grant aid and totally
ineffectual in their published aims. Apart from reviving the
production of charcoal they latched on lavender perfume production.

This link shows another producer's process

http://www.routes-lavande.com/about_lavender/extraction.html

So steam distillation may be one route, I guess a solvent process may
be another, alcohol is a good candidate but how about super critical
CO2 which is now being mooted for dry cleaning?

My guess the richest material would be the cambium rather than the
bark itself.

The other thought is the term poly cyclic aromatic compounds suggests
they were originally identified by their smell, so sweet smelling may
not be good for long or concentrated exposures.

AJH

From english at kingston.net Sat Nov 13 06:57:49 2004
From: english at kingston.net (Alex English)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:57:49 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
In-Reply-To: <31qbp017po2crs2j7rm88l8vemnh71uvmq@4ax.com>
References: <4195071B.25328.493A131@localhost>
Message-ID: <4195BE7D.15964.75FF978@localhost>

Andrew,
I would describe it as a vinegar type of odour. So is it likely harmless, if still
annoying?
Alex
>
> I have an oven in an outhouse where I dry samples and the smell from
> this is also quite characteristic as the drying goes on, I can just
> about detect the "tang" of acetic acid as I complete drying and
> pyrolysis is incipient.

>
> a google finds a definition for VOCs and exceptions at
> http://www.ronjoseph.com/Q&A/permits_q20.htm
>
> AJH
>

From english at kingston.net Sat Nov 13 06:57:49 2004
From: english at kingston.net (Alex English)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:57:49 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
In-Reply-To: <005701c4c976$0cd3fd80$af9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <4195BE7D.22266.75FF9D6@localhost>

Kevin,
I can't say that I prefer this vinegar odour to the 'normal'.
It interfered with getting back to sleep.
Yours grumpily, Alex

> Dear Alex and Andrew
>
> It is very interesting that you bring up this thread!! When I burn slash
> from Poplar in a cold fire, the smoke coming off it can, under certain
> circumstances, have the most wonderful "woodsy perfume fragrance". It is
> something like a sweet cedar fragrance, and is very pleasant. I have all
> kinds of trash Poplar on my place, and I was wondering if there is a process
> for extracting this fragrance? It could be a very nice fun project in my
> dotage.
>
> I presume the "active ingredients" of this fragrance are only in the bark,
> and not in the woody portion of the tree. This would suggest some sort of
> "bark distillation with partial oxidation" as a basic process. Is there
> perhaps a way to extract such a fragrance without the need for partial
> oxidation? I am guessing that the partial oxidation may be difficult to
> control.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
> To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:55:23 -0500, Alex English wrote:
>
> >Hello all,
> >This query is a bit peripheral to your usual discussions. I am currently
> >working on automatic ignition for a wood fueled heating stove. The
> > process begins with loading wood, paper and kindling into a freshly
> > cleaned out stove that has residual heat in the fire brick perhaps up to
> > 200C. The result is that something more than water is driven off.
> Certainly
> >some of it has a distinctive aroma that ultimately found its way in to the
> house
> > after the chimney cools.
>
> Hi Alex, good to here from you, I'll guess the compounds you are
> smelling are the volatile aromatic compounds, these are given off from
> ambient temperatures upward and as wood is burned they are the
> precursors of pyrolysis. Generally they are reckoned not to be a
> problem below 150C. Having said that a UK report has suggested living
> trees are significant (particularly a poplar) contributor in urban
> environments.
>
> I'm glad you added that the aroma is only apparent as the chimney
> cools, otherwise one might suspect a poor draw or leaky flue.
>
> We discussed one type of VOC when considering resin torches, these are
> terpenes and they and their incomplete combustion products are
> implicated as carcinogens. The VOC from wood that is considered very
> dangerous is Benzo a pyrene, I thought this was only a product of
> incomplete combustion rather than a VOC but I am now unsure of the
> distinction between poly cyclic aromatic compounds and VOCs,
> previously I had thought a VOC was defined by its vapour pressure at a
> given temperature.
> A definition I found:
>
> "Any chemical compound based on carbon chains or rings (and also
> containing
> hydrogen) with a vapour pressure greater than 2mm of mercury (0.27
> kPa) at 250 C,
> excluding methane.
> Note :
> 1. These compounds may contain oxygen, nitrogen and other elements,
> but specifically excluded are
> carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, carbonic acid, metallic carbides and
> carbonate salts"
>
> As you will realise this high temperature (250C) classes much of the
> pyrolysis offgas as VOC.
>
> Apart from energy considerations this is one reason we kept our high
> speed drying separate from the combustion process.
>
> Greg Manning may be able to comment as his monorater might put out
> water contaminated by PAHs, though they are actually insoluble in
> water.
>
>
> It's interesting how sensitive the nose is and how these aromatic
> compounds diffuse through the air, I find I can identify different
> species burning and the smell form attempts to burn wet wood is quite
> distinctive, suggesting different PAHs are involved.
>
> I have an oven in an outhouse where I dry samples and the smell from
> this is also quite characteristic as the drying goes on, I can just
> about detect the "tang" of acetic acid as I complete drying and
> pyrolysis is incipient.
>
> a google finds a definition for VOCs and exceptions at
> http://www.ronjoseph.com/Q&A/permits_q20.htm
>
> AJH
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Nov 13 07:25:02 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:25:02 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
In-Reply-To: <4195BE7D.15964.75FF978@localhost>
References: <4195071B.25328.493A131@localhost>
<31qbp017po2crs2j7rm88l8vemnh71uvmq@4ax.com>
<4195BE7D.15964.75FF978@localhost>
Message-ID: <ie2cp0t6qghfjt2b05uvf4pbfrebo35k87@4ax.com>

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:57:49 -0500, Alex English wrote:

>Andrew,
>I would describe it as a vinegar type of odour. So is it likely harmless, if still
>annoying?

Alex, I'm not qualified to say. What it seems is that you have parts
of the drying wood beginning to undergo pyrolysis, one advantage of
wood burning is that you immediately become aware of poor combustion
from the acrid smoke. I would doubt your exposure is particularly
harmful but the indication is at this low level of pyrolysis some
products are getting into your living space.

AJH

From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 13 08:41:32 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:41:32 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041113083238.009ccc90@pop.btl.net>

A while back we came across wood-vinegar production by pyrolysis. From
bambo in that case. By-product of bamboo charcoal production.

Peter -- Belize

At 01:25 PM 11/13/2004 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:57:49 -0500, Alex English wrote:
>
>>Andrew,
>>I would describe it as a vinegar type of odour. So is it likely harmless,
if still
>>annoying?
>
>Alex, I'm not qualified to say. What it seems is that you have parts
>of the drying wood beginning to undergo pyrolysis, one advantage of
>wood burning is that you immediately become aware of poor combustion
>from the acrid smoke. I would doubt your exposure is particularly
>harmful but the indication is at this low level of pyrolysis some
>products are getting into your living space.
>
>AJH
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From phoenix98604 at earthlink.net Sat Nov 13 11:12:44 2004
From: phoenix98604 at earthlink.net (Art Krenzel)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:12:44 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
References: <4195071B.25328.493A131@localhost><31qbp017po2crs2j7rm88l8vemnh71uvmq@4ax.com><4195BE7D.15964.75FF978@localhost>
<ie2cp0t6qghfjt2b05uvf4pbfrebo35k87@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <004001c4c9a3$fea5afa0$bbc0f204@7k6rv21>

Destructive distillation was the mainstay for the commercial production of
acetic acid and methanol for many years pre 1920. Raw wood was heated in a
sealed retort and the gases given off were condensed. They were
fractionated into different components by condensing them as they were given
off at different temperatures during the heating process.

I think you are experiencing the results of an industrial process that went
out of vogue when high temperature chemistry for the production of methanol
and acetic acid was developed in the early 20th century.

Art Krenzel.

----- Original Message -----
From: <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:57:49 -0500, Alex English wrote:

>Andrew,
>I would describe it as a vinegar type of odour. So is it likely harmless,
>if still
>annoying?

AJH

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From ken at basterfield.com Sat Nov 13 11:29:19 2004
From: ken at basterfield.com (Ken Basterfield)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:29:19 -0000
Subject: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove
In-Reply-To: <67217b6740a3.6740a367217b@vsnl.net>
Message-ID: <005d01c4c9a6$5188a400$6702a8c0@KenThinkPad>

Thanks Anil,
Is it necessary to enlarge the burner jet or do you simply adjust the
pressure to accommodate the different fuel?
Sincerely
Ken

I've stopped 17,309 spam messages. You can too!
One month FREE spam protection at
http://www.cloudmark.com/spamnetsig/?rc=f4n4hl

-----Original Message-----
From: anilrajvanshi at vsnl.com [mailto:anilrajvanshi at vsnl.com]
Sent: 13 November 2004 01:25
To: Ken Basterfield
Cc: 'Peter Singfield'; STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: Re: RE: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove

Quite substantially since there is a pressure regulating valve, flame
controller and also the evaporation is of two liquids rather than
kerosine alone. The basic idea of this stove though came from Primus
stove.

Anil

----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Basterfield <ken at basterfield.com>
Date: Friday, November 12, 2004 10:57 pm
Subject: RE: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove

Anil K Rajvanshi
Director
Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute
P.O.Box 44, Phaltan 415523
Maharashtra, India

Ph: 02166-222396/220945
Fax: 02166-220945

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Nov 13 11:34:50 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:34:50 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
In-Reply-To: <004001c4c9a3$fea5afa0$bbc0f204@7k6rv21>
References: <4195071B.25328.493A131@localhost><31qbp017po2crs2j7rm88l8vemnh71uvmq@4ax.com><4195BE7D.15964.75FF978@localhost>
<ie2cp0t6qghfjt2b05uvf4pbfrebo35k87@4ax.com>
<004001c4c9a3$fea5afa0$bbc0f204@7k6rv21>
Message-ID: <j8gcp01o66k4nmn4f428p6e8rj42crvl36@4ax.com>

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:12:44 -0800, Art Krenzel wrote:

>Destructive distillation was the mainstay for the commercial production of
>acetic acid and methanol for many years pre 1920. Raw wood was heated in a
>sealed retort and the gases given off were condensed. They were
>fractionated into different components by condensing them as they were given
>off at different temperatures during the heating process.

Yes we discussed this a bit before, as I said at the time beech was
the preferred wood for a process in germany that produced power in a
large single cylinder engine from the waste gasses produced further on
in the pyrolysis process.

Presumably with Alex using retained heat to cause this drying
overnight there may be some experience from masonry stove experts.
Alex needs to find a way of preventing the wood being dried exceeding
about 150C over night. My first thought is to circulate a bit of air
to lower the temperature but this adds a complication and could lead
to excessive heat loss.

AJH

From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 13 11:47:01 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:47:01 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Destructive distillation of biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041113114201.0091ddf0@pop.btl.net>

At 05:34 PM 11/13/2004 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:12:44 -0800, Art Krenzel wrote:
>
>>Destructive distillation was the mainstay for the commercial production of
>>acetic acid and methanol for many years pre 1920. Raw wood was heated in a
>>sealed retort and the gases given off were condensed. They were
>>fractionated into different components by condensing them as they were
given
>>off at different temperatures during the heating process.
>
>Yes we discussed this a bit before, as I said at the time beech was
>the preferred wood for a process in germany that produced power in a
>large single cylinder engine from the waste gasses produced further on
>in the pyrolysis process.
>

OK -- one can derive portable fuel (methanol) a very important industrial
chemical:

Acetic acid is an important industrial chemical. About 3.2 ? 109 kilograms
of acetic acid were produced in the United States in 1999. The primary use
of this chemical is in the manufacture of assorted acetate esters. These
are substances formed by reacting acetic acid with a substance containing a
hydroxyl (?OH) group. Cellulose, found in cotton and wood, is a polymeric
material containing multiple hydroxyl groups. It reacts with acetic acid to
yield cellulose acetate, which is used to make films and textiles. Some
photographic films are made of cellulose acetate, and rayon is made from
cellulose acetate fibers. Vinyl acetate, another ester of acetic acid,
polymerizes to form poly(vinyl acetate), which is used in water-based latex
paints and in glues for paper and wood.

Next -- produces a gas that can fuel an internal combustion engine --

And last -- plus high quality charcoal!! (The ideal "portable" fuel for any
gasifier set-up)

And this process ceased to exist once petroleum products became so widely
available and so "cheap" -- right??

Any "bells" ringing yet??

Should we not be resurrecting this "ancient" technology at this time??
Certainly -- it is a village level one!

Peter - Belize

From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 13 12:31:36 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:31:36 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Fermenting cane juice to butane --
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041113115848.00920630@pop.btl.net>

Another blast from the past -- ending when petroleum became so cheap and
available.

"This fermentation has been supplanted by petrochemical synthetic processes."

Butane is the "ideal" portable fuel -- for stoves -- to IC engines. And
compresses -- liquifies -- "easily" --

Probably another village level product -- based on sugar cane.

Anyone here have specific info on this processing??

Then destructive distillation of the bagasse after -- eh??

So now -- butane -- acedic -- methanol -- charcoal -- and a gas by product
for operating small power plant.

Peter - Belize

***************************************

Butanol-isopropanol Fermentation

The butanol-isopropanol fermentation (Refs. 7 to 9) is mediated by the
anaerobic bacterium Clostridium butylicum. A wide variety of carbohydrate
feeds maybe used. Saccharin feeds yield 30 to 33 percent mixed solvents,
based on the original sugars. At 33 to 37 deg C. the fermentation is
complete within 30 to 40 hours. Product ratios vary with the strain and
with culture conditions, but are normally in the range 33 to 65 percent
n-butanol, 19 to 44 percent isopropanol, 1 to 24 percent acetone, and 0 to
3 percent ethanol. This fermentation has been supplanted by petrochemical
synthetic processes.

Refs:

7. Prescott S.C., and C.G. Dunn: "Industrial Microbiology," McGraw-Hill,
New York, 1959.

8. Rhodes, A., and D.L. Fletcher: "Principles of Industrial Microbiology,"
Pergamon, New York, 1966.

9. Peppler, H.J.: Ethyl Alcohol, Lactic Acid, Acetone, Butyl Alcohol, and
Other Microbial Products, in H.J. Peppler (ed.), "Microbial Technology,"
Van Nostrand Reinhold, New York, 1967.

From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 13 12:48:58 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:48:58 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] What else one can do with Wood vinegar
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041113124443.00921270@pop.btl.net>

Wood vinegar -- acetic acid -- nick name -- Acetate --

Which is the final stage if biological conversion of biomass to methane.

EG:

Like any other biological process, methanogenesis involves consortia of
microorganisms which convert organic waste into methane, carbon dioxide and
traces of other gases. The overall rates of waste utilisation and methane
production depend on the extent to which the nutritional requirements of
the methanogens and non-methanogens could be met by constituents of the
waste and by primary or secondary metabolites produced by one species and
utilised by another1. Trace elements necessary for anaerobic digestion
include iron, nickel, calcium, barium and cobalt. Iron is an important
micronutrient for many microorganisms and is essential for various enzymes.

Acetate is the major precursor of methane production in anaerobic
digesters2 and its utilization may be a rate-limiting step in the anaerobic
degradation of organic matter3. Higher and faster conversion of acetic acid
to methane by addition of iron and cobalt has been observed in the sewage
digestion4, a 40% enhancement in the biogas formation from fruit waste5,
faster recovery of the sour-sick digesters due to substrate over loading
because of conversion of accumulated volatile fatty acids to methane by the
increased activity of the methanogens under the influence of iron1, very
high acetate utilisation rates in digesters receiving a defined medium of
acetate and mineral salts supplemented with dried supernatant solids
(containing iron and cobalt) from a municipal digester6, requirement of
iron for hydrogen_oxidizing methanogens for optimum growth are some of the
examples.

*******************************

Cane juice is exceptionally rich in micronutrient "Iron" -- and makes an
iron rich vinegar as a result.

Interesting paper on all of this at:

http://www.undp.org.in/programme/GEF/september/page21-23.htm

"This paper reports the effects of iron addition on the biomethanation of
rice straw in batch digestion process under different iron concentrations
utilizing rice straw as the sole substrate."

This should be applicable to cane bagasse --

Some more of interest appended -- that vinegar could become a portable fuel
-- as in gasified on the roll -- like charcoal was to producer gas --
vinegar can be for methane. Or fuel for a stove -- using a very tiny
biodigestor!

Peter -- Belize

**********appended**********

: Biofactors. 1997;6(1):25-35

Enzymology of the fermentation of acetate to methane by Methanosarcina
thermophila.

Ferry JG.

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Pennsylvania State
University, University Park 16802-4500, USA.

Biologically-produced CH4 derives from either the reduction of CO2 or the
methyl group of acetate by two separate pathways present in anaerobic
mierobes from the Archaea domain. Elucidation of the pathway for CO2
reduction to CH4, the first to be investigated, has yielded several novel
enzymes and cofactors. Most of the CH4 produced in nature derives from the
methyl group of acetate. Methanosarcina thermophila is a moderate
thermophile which ferments acetate by reducing the methyl group to CH4 with
electrons derived from oxidation of the carbonyl group to CO2. The pathway
in M. thermophila is now understood on a biochemical and genetic level
comparable to understanding of the CO2-reducing pathway. Enzymes have been
purified and characterized. The genes encoding these enzymes have been
cloned, sequenced, transcriptionally mapped, and their regulation defined
on a molecular level. This review emphasizes recent developments concerning
the enzymes which are unique to the acetate fermentation pathway in M.
thermophila.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 9233537 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Nov 13 13:48:17 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:48:17 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Destructive distillation of biomass
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20041113114201.0091ddf0@pop.btl.net>
References: <3.0.32.20041113114201.0091ddf0@pop.btl.net>
Message-ID: <7hocp057vuqplqnu8rk260347u7ds9ki2q@4ax.com>

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:47:01 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:

>
>
>At 05:34 PM 11/13/2004 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:
>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:12:44 -0800, Art Krenzel wrote:
>>
>>>Destructive distillation was the mainstay for the commercial production of
>>>acetic acid and methanol for many years pre 1920. Raw wood was heated in a
>>>sealed retort and the gases given off were condensed. They were
>>>fractionated into different components by condensing them as they were
>given
>>>off at different temperatures during the heating process.
>>
>>Yes we discussed this a bit before, as I said at the time beech was
>>the preferred wood for a process in germany that produced power in a
>>large single cylinder engine from the waste gasses produced further on
>>in the pyrolysis process.
>>
>
>OK -- one can derive portable fuel (methanol) a very important industrial
>chemical:

OK too! Peter you've given me another opening to stir up this
discussion on the bioconversion list:

http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/bioconversion

are you subscribed?

At this scale it is less relevant to [Stoves].

Think of the proportions these pyrolysis products are produced in.

With the amount of charcoal being produced in the world why do you
think it pays "charcoal burners" just to waste the offgas?

>
>Acetic acid is an important industrial chemical.

<snip>

Yes but how much does it cost? Can the route to it from biomass match
the modern means of production in scale or cost? Biomass is a
distributed rawstock, expensive to collect and transport, it lends
itself to smaller scale operations.
>
>Next -- produces a gas that can fuel an internal combustion engine --

There's more to running an internal combustion engine than just the
fuel cost, the extra cost of maintenance and lower longevity can
easily militate against this working.
>
>And last -- plus high quality charcoal!! (The ideal "portable" fuel for any
>gasifier set-up)

Hey, I'll not argue with that.
>
>And this process ceased to exist once petroleum products became so widely
>available and so "cheap" -- right??

Yes, the systems were superseded by fossil fuels because the fossil
fuels had overwhelming economic advantages, not least of which was
their disposition to benefit from application of capital in their
development, i.e. it paid successful individuals to invest in them
better than other energy sources.
>
>Any "bells" ringing yet??
>
>Should we not be resurrecting this "ancient" technology at this time??
>Certainly -- it is a village level one!

Yes I see these intermediate technologies benefitting groups who will
otherwise remain disenfranchised because they cannot climb up out of
energy poverty.

One of the anachronisms that I cannot come to terms with is that the
only work in the biomass field I have been offered is to develop a
means to incinerate biomass from conservation areas, when what I want
to do is research and implement a means to economically harvest the
same biomass.

AJH

From snkm at btl.net Sat Nov 13 13:59:18 2004
From: snkm at btl.net (Peter Singfield)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:59:18 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Destructive distillation of biomass
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20041113135820.0091d500@pop.btl.net>

At 07:48 PM 11/13/2004 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:

>One of the anachronisms that I cannot come to terms with is that the
>only work in the biomass field I have been offered is to develop a
>means to incinerate biomass from conservation areas, when what I want
>to do is research and implement a means to economically harvest the
>same biomass.
>
>AJH
>

Well -- that time appears to approaching us rather rapidly these days -- eh??

Oil is no longer Cheap -- and even if there is a swing to lower prices --
it will be short term only.

The future of much is now returning to growing your own ---

Paper bags instead of plastic??

Rayon instead of nylon??

Burlap sacks instead of plastic??

So many changes we made -- now must be reversed??

How dependent we have become to the idea of unlimited and cheap oil -- can
we survive a readjustment??

Or is it burn the whole system down -- then -- with much fewer humans --
start all over again??

You see -- that is the real question here --

Then -- Would you load a time capsule with all the technology required to
run great civilizations based on the promise of unlimited free oil for the
distant future??

If we were serious about surviving in some kind of style -- we should be
opening such time capsules given to us from the before cheap oil past.

That and unlimited nuclear energy -- we just might make it through --

Peter

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Nov 13 16:29:36 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:29:36 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Destructive distillation of biomass
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20041113135820.0091d500@pop.btl.net>
References: <3.0.32.20041113135820.0091d500@pop.btl.net>
Message-ID: <hh2dp012ur0isdmjjt9soc0nes4ruop93o@4ax.com>

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:59:18 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:

>The future of much is now returning to growing your own ---

Well at least one like minded soul has responded on [Bioconversion]
come on over and join in but let's discuss what's possible and what's
practicable rather than foam at the mouth over what's wrong with the
world.

AJH

From a31ford at inetlink.ca Sat Nov 13 17:47:54 2004
From: a31ford at inetlink.ca (a31ford)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:47:54 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
Message-ID: <000201c4c9db$32d1fd60$1900a8c0@a31server>

Alex, sorry for the double...
Stoves this time :)

-----Original Message-----
From: a31ford [mailto:a31ford at inetlink.ca]
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 5:46 PM
To: 'english at kingston.net'
Subject: RE: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood

Dear Alex,

Try this link, http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts69.html I think it will
"Technically answer" your questions of "what smells or aroma's" are created
from warm wood.

Note we are talking "creosote" creating hydrocarbons "Go figure"....

Greg Manning,
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Alex English
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 5:55 PM
To: Gasification at listserv.repp.org; stoves at listserv.repp.org
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood

So, what compounds are evolved from wood
at these temperatures?

Anyone.

Thanks, Alex English
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From tombreed at comcast.net Sun Nov 14 08:02:40 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (TBReed)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:02:40 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Destructive distillation of biomass
References: <3.0.32.20041113114201.0091ddf0@pop.btl.net>
<7hocp057vuqplqnu8rk260347u7ds9ki2q@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <002201c4ca52$a741e8a0$3401a8c0@OFFICE>

Dear Sylva and All:

Hate to see you guys rediscovering the world, though it's good to understand
old technology...

Yes, destructive distillation of wood was the mainstay of the chemical
world, last plant shut down in Michigan in 1950. Made 2% methanol (hardwood
only), acetic acid, acetone, vanilla, and over 100 other chemicals with some
commercial value - if you could handle all the separations and find markets
for them. It also yielded up to 30% charcoal.

If you convert wood to synthesis gas,

CH2O==> CO + H2

You can make 60% methanol using modern catalytic techniques. Or you could
make ammonia or diesel/gasoline.

Onward and Upward, TOM REED
----- Original Message -----
From: <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>; <bioconversion at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Destructive distillation of biomass

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:47:01 -0600, Peter Singfield wrote:

>
>
>At 05:34 PM 11/13/2004 +0000, list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk wrote:
>>On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:12:44 -0800, Art Krenzel wrote:
>>
>>>Destructive distillation was the mainstay for the commercial production
of
>>>acetic acid and methanol for many years pre 1920. Raw wood was heated in
a
>>>sealed retort and the gases given off were condensed. They were
>>>fractionated into different components by condensing them as they were
>given
>>>off at different temperatures during the heating process.
>>
>>Yes we discussed this a bit before, as I said at the time beech was
>>the preferred wood for a process in germany that produced power in a
>>large single cylinder engine from the waste gasses produced further on
>>in the pyrolysis process.
>>
>
>OK -- one can derive portable fuel (methanol) a very important industrial
>chemical:

OK too! Peter you've given me another opening to stir up this
discussion on the bioconversion list:

http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/bioconversion

are you subscribed?

At this scale it is less relevant to [Stoves].

Think of the proportions these pyrolysis products are produced in.

With the amount of charcoal being produced in the world why do you
think it pays "charcoal burners" just to waste the offgas?

>
>Acetic acid is an important industrial chemical.

<snip>

Hey, I'll not argue with that.
>
>And this process ceased to exist once petroleum products became so widely
>available and so "cheap" -- right??

Yes I see these intermediate technologies benefitting groups who will
otherwise remain disenfranchised because they cannot climb up out of
energy poverty.

AJH
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Sun Nov 14 12:10:50 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 20:10:50 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
In-Reply-To: <005701c4c976$0cd3fd80$af9a0a40@kevin>
References: <4195071B.25328.493A131@localhost> <31qbp017po2crs2j7rm88l8vemnh71uvmq@4ax.com>
<005701c4c976$0cd3fd80$af9a0a40@kevin>
Message-ID: <41979FAA.4090503@legacyfound.org>

Kevin Alex and Andrew:
This is exactly what we experience with the non woody biomass briquettes
made at ambient temps in a a plain water slurry .
The variety of aroma however, is an order of magnitude greater when one
ventures beyond just "trees" and into all kinds of vegetation and blends
of same, as the feedstock.
What gets even more exciting and humbling is the fact that most every
traditional village group we have worked with, usually already knows
and utilises these scents in their cooking, probably not unlike our own
forefathers. In as much as the briquette enjoys a relatively long die
back period (usually over 40% of its total burn "run time", hovering
around 200 - 150 C), such aromas really predominate the fire. Its great
that we are now looking at it from a more analytical perspective though.
All ears, (and nose)
Richard Stanley of the wholly briquette mob

Kevin Chisholm wrote:

>Dear Alex and Andrew
>
>It is very interesting that you bring up this thread!! When I burn slash
>from Poplar in a cold fire, the smoke coming off it can, under certain
>circumstances, have the most wonderful "woodsy perfume fragrance". It is
>something like a sweet cedar fragrance, and is very pleasant. I have all
>kinds of trash Poplar on my place, and I was wondering if there is a process
>for extracting this fragrance? It could be a very nice fun project in my
>dotage.
>
>I presume the "active ingredients" of this fragrance are only in the bark,
>and not in the woody portion of the tree. This would suggest some sort of
>"bark distillation with partial oxidation" as a basic process. Is there
>perhaps a way to extract such a fragrance without the need for partial
>oxidation? I am guessing that the partial oxidation may be difficult to
>control.
>
>Kindest regards,
>
>Kevin
>
>Kevin
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
>To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
>Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 7:12 AM
>Subject: Re: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
>
>
>On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:55:23 -0500, Alex English wrote:
>
>
>
>>Hello all,
>>This query is a bit peripheral to your usual discussions. I am currently
>>working on automatic ignition for a wood fueled heating stove. The
>>process begins with loading wood, paper and kindling into a freshly
>>cleaned out stove that has residual heat in the fire brick perhaps up to
>>200C. The result is that something more than water is driven off.
>>
>>
>Certainly
>
>
>>some of it has a distinctive aroma that ultimately found its way in to the
>>
>>
>house
>
>
>>after the chimney cools.
>>
>>
>
>Hi Alex, good to here from you, I'll guess the compounds you are
>smelling are the volatile aromatic compounds, these are given off from
>ambient temperatures upward and as wood is burned they are the
>precursors of pyrolysis. Generally they are reckoned not to be a
>problem below 150C. Having said that a UK report has suggested living
>trees are significant (particularly a poplar) contributor in urban
>environments.
>
>I'm glad you added that the aroma is only apparent as the chimney
>cools, otherwise one might suspect a poor draw or leaky flue.
>
>We discussed one type of VOC when considering resin torches, these are
>terpenes and they and their incomplete combustion products are
>implicated as carcinogens. The VOC from wood that is considered very
>dangerous is Benzo a pyrene, I thought this was only a product of
>incomplete combustion rather than a VOC but I am now unsure of the
>distinction between poly cyclic aromatic compounds and VOCs,
>previously I had thought a VOC was defined by its vapour pressure at a
>given temperature.
>A definition I found:
>
>"Any chemical compound based on carbon chains or rings (and also
>containing
>hydrogen) with a vapour pressure greater than 2mm of mercury (0.27
>kPa) at 250 C,
>excluding methane.
>Note :
>1. These compounds may contain oxygen, nitrogen and other elements,
>but specifically excluded are
>carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, carbonic acid, metallic carbides and
>carbonate salts"
>
>As you will realise this high temperature (250C) classes much of the
>pyrolysis offgas as VOC.
>
>Apart from energy considerations this is one reason we kept our high
>speed drying separate from the combustion process.
>
>Greg Manning may be able to comment as his monorater might put out
>water contaminated by PAHs, though they are actually insoluble in
>water.
>
>
>It's interesting how sensitive the nose is and how these aromatic
>compounds diffuse through the air, I find I can identify different
>species burning and the smell form attempts to burn wet wood is quite
>distinctive, suggesting different PAHs are involved.
>
>I have an oven in an outhouse where I dry samples and the smell from
>this is also quite characteristic as the drying goes on, I can just
>about detect the "tang" of acetic acid as I complete drying and
>pyrolysis is incipient.
>
>a google finds a definition for VOCs and exceptions at
>http://www.ronjoseph.com/Q&A/permits_q20.htm
>
>AJH
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
>
>
>
>

From Gavin at aa3genergi.force9.co.uk Sun Nov 14 13:13:31 2004
From: Gavin at aa3genergi.force9.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:13:31 -0000
Subject: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood
In-Reply-To: <6stbp01gccb2ae0jtirjtar12qehegub0g@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGOEKCEBAA.Gavin@aa3genergi.force9.co.uk>

Yep,
I'd go with Andrew here,
"The other thought is the term poly cyclic aromatic compounds suggests
they were originally identified by their smell, so sweet smelling may
not be good for long or concentrated exposures."

We did a lot of emissions testing on low temperature woodchip drying and
found an interesting mix of compounds and an interesting relationship with
temperature. fortunately I don't have the detailed results as they are
commercial in confidence so I would have to s=hoot myself if I distributed
them on this list.

Slightly more interesting is that research has now been done on high
temperature drying of chips and sawdust for pellet production and there are
very interesting high temperature reactions of the PAH's to make new ones
which can be detected in pellet bags and storage silos, hence the
differences between Canadian and Scandinavian pellets on one hand and the
Austrian and German pellets on the other...

I do not have more detailed information and am not in a position to draw
conclusions

Gavin

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of
list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:04
To: stoves at listserv.repp.org
Subject: Re: [Stoves] aromatics from baked wood

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:43:27 -0400, Kevin Chisholm wrote:

This link shows another producer's process

http://www.routes-lavande.com/about_lavender/extraction.html

So steam distillation may be one route, I guess a solvent process may
be another, alcohol is a good candidate but how about super critical
CO2 which is now being mooted for dry cleaning?

My guess the richest material would be the cambium rather than the
bark itself.

AJH
_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From koimnjj at minn.net Sun Nov 14 13:13:51 2004
From: koimnjj at minn.net (John G Johnston III)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:13:51 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Corn (Maize) as a Biofuel
In-Reply-To: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGOEKCEBAA.Gavin@aa3genergi.force9.co.uk>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAyqe9U8iQIkWK/iq/ZFZdqcKAAAAQAAAA0uiHcVqw302yD5IUUPHiwwEAAAAA@minn.net>

I was wondering if anyone can point me to information on burning corn
(maize) as a fuel.

Thanks - John

From woolsey at netins.net Mon Nov 15 17:31:03 2004
From: woolsey at netins.net (Ed)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:31:03 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20041112094241.009fdc90@pop.btl.net>
Message-ID: <ANEJLMEDLAIOBBFJMIHCEEANCGAA.woolsey@netins.net>

Yep...sign me up to buy one also.

Ed Woolsey
Iowa

-----Original Message-----
From: stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org
[mailto:stoves-bounces at listserv.repp.org]On Behalf Of Peter Singfield
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 10:02 AM
To: STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Forwrding enthanol stove

Thanks for this fine introduction to this technology -- is there any way
one can purchase a number of these??

Peter Singfield -- Belize

From mailthompson at yahoo.com Tue Nov 16 11:45:23 2004
From: mailthompson at yahoo.com (Kyle Thompson)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:45:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stoves] Natural Convection Wood-Gas Stove
Message-ID: <20041116174523.18739.qmail@web61002.mail.yahoo.com>

One thing that seems to be holding back wood-gas
stoves is the need for a mechanical air "advance"
system.

Has anyone made a viable non-mechanical wood-gas
stove, in that it doesn't need a electric or steam
driven fan?

This weekend I rebuilt an earlier wood-gas stove and
it combusted quite nicely. I have a couple of sheet
metal issues right that do not make for a tight air
flow, but other than that it boiled 2 liters of water
in about 60 seconds. It was way too hot at certain
points. Out of control. That may be necessary due to
the way I loaded the stove. In addition, if it goes
hot like that at the very beginning of the cook cycle
I might use it for hot water or to just get the stove
going....I'll have to restrict the oxygen input to try
to regulate the stove or decrease the size of the burn
chamber.

This stove could have some gas taken off to make a
light at night. I'm not sure how to compress the gas
and keep it "clean" I have plenty of gas. Perhaps
just take gas off lower in the chamber redirect it and
"flare" it out an inverted lantern mantle?

It has mention that LED's are a viable alternative to
wood gas light. I really think LED lights will come
down in price big time and a LED with a rechargeable
AAA battery/solar pack will be pretty inexpensive in
the next few years. The changes in US consumer
flashlight LED's have been so big over the past 3
years. I have a 2 bulb 3 AAA battery headlamp that
last for 250 hours on one charge. Basically I never
change batteries. I know $8.00 is alot for a person
to spend on a Luxury item, but short of using the
wood-gas for illumination there might be some cost
involved in a mantle of some type for wood gas light.

In any case I was able to have a blow torch of a stove
run for 2.75 hours on about 1.5-1.8 kilos of wood. I
know, I know, that is alot of wood. I've made smaller
wood-gas stoves that burn for 40-50 minutes with a
fan. Personally, for camping I don't need a stove
that goes longer than that, but I'm trying to design a
super cheap, easy to use, somewhat fool proof stove,
high efficiency stove and cooking system. A electric
motor and battery don't figure in to the semi-fool
proof part.

Many advocate the use of small "twigs" for wood gas.
I'm not sure if I'm making wood gas with the
non-motorized stove, although burning small 2 cm twigs
compared to what I'm burning seems to work fine. In
addition, there isn't much smoke given off.

The fuel I used was somewhat dry, but I have a system
for driving the water off future batch loads of fuel.
(O.K. it is worked out in my head, but the "system" is
fundamentally sound.)

I'm interested in learning how to continuous feed a
wood-gas stove. With a 2.75 hour burn time (and I
think I can take it to 3.5 hours without breaking a
sweet) I don't know why I have to do continuous feed.
My stove can be continuous feed. With a emphasis on
the "continuous" I can put a hole in the side and
drop stuff in, but that doesn't appeal to me much
better than just dropping it down the top of the
stove. A sealed "gravity" chute in the side could
work O.K. I guess with minimal expense. Seal both
ends and open the on the burn chamber. Then you can
add more wood on the other end. NO Tom Reed, I have
not seen your new design. This will work though
because it can keep the Air pressure up in the burn
chamber and never has to open the burn chamber to the
outside air. Plus, it can "dry" the fuel just a
little more before it is added to the chamber. Sort
of an inverted turbo stove. A wood-gas turbo stove
hybrid. I like it. I can cook for hours in the North
woods. Heck, you might not need a inside chamber
cover, you would exit some gas when recharging, but I
don't know if it would put out the pyrolysis. I guess
the key is to meter out the amount of fuel introduced
into the burn chamber. Easily enough done with a
inverted Indiana Raccoon Cage trigger mechanism.

My other solution for camping is just carry 2 stoves.
They are so light. Just have 2 loaded, when one is
almost done, fire up the second. Plus it is nice to
have a 2nd stove incase something happens to the
first. (Bears tend to steal them for hot coffee with
their jam in the morning.)

Some of my goals with my stove are:

1) Burn as efficiently at possible.
2) Collect as much heat energy as possible, recycle
and not waste as much as possible.
3) Ease of use.

These are the areas I've been working on for the last
10 months with quite a bit of success I might add.
One place I need alot of work in is making the stove
run cooler. (Burn fuel slower, a more even cooking
temp.) One of my stoves actually whistles while it
cooks. Melting the cooking stand. Not good, but fun.

Later,

Kyle

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com

From phoenix98604 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 16 13:01:13 2004
From: phoenix98604 at earthlink.net (Art Krenzel)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:01:13 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Natural Convection Wood-Gas Stove
References: <20041116174523.18739.qmail@web61002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00fb01c4cc0e$a588c930$fdbaf204@7k6rv21>

Kyle,

It sounds as if you have had a busy year working on your stove.

Do you have any photos of your stove to share with the group?

Art Krenzel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kyle Thompson" <mailthompson at yahoo.com>
To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 9:45 AM
Subject: [Stoves] Natural Convection Wood-Gas Stove

> One thing that seems to be holding back wood-gas
> stoves is the need for a mechanical air "advance"
> system.
>
> Has anyone made a viable non-mechanical wood-gas
> stove, in that it doesn't need a electric or steam
> driven fan?
>
> This weekend I rebuilt an earlier wood-gas stove and
> it combusted quite nicely. I have a couple of sheet
> metal issues right that do not make for a tight air
> flow, but other than that it boiled 2 liters of water
> in about 60 seconds. It was way too hot at certain
> points. Out of control. That may be necessary due to
> the way I loaded the stove. In addition, if it goes
> hot like that at the very beginning of the cook cycle
> I might use it for hot water or to just get the stove
> going....I'll have to restrict the oxygen input to try
> to regulate the stove or decrease the size of the burn
> chamber.
>
> This stove could have some gas taken off to make a
> light at night. I'm not sure how to compress the gas
> and keep it "clean" I have plenty of gas. Perhaps
> just take gas off lower in the chamber redirect it and
> "flare" it out an inverted lantern mantle?
>
> It has mention that LED's are a viable alternative to
> wood gas light. I really think LED lights will come
> down in price big time and a LED with a rechargeable
> AAA battery/solar pack will be pretty inexpensive in
> the next few years. The changes in US consumer
> flashlight LED's have been so big over the past 3
> years. I have a 2 bulb 3 AAA battery headlamp that
> last for 250 hours on one charge. Basically I never
> change batteries. I know $8.00 is alot for a person
> to spend on a Luxury item, but short of using the
> wood-gas for illumination there might be some cost
> involved in a mantle of some type for wood gas light.
>
>
>
>
> In any case I was able to have a blow torch of a stove
> run for 2.75 hours on about 1.5-1.8 kilos of wood. I
> know, I know, that is alot of wood. I've made smaller
> wood-gas stoves that burn for 40-50 minutes with a
> fan. Personally, for camping I don't need a stove
> that goes longer than that, but I'm trying to design a
> super cheap, easy to use, somewhat fool proof stove,
> high efficiency stove and cooking system. A electric
> motor and battery don't figure in to the semi-fool
> proof part.
>
> Many advocate the use of small "twigs" for wood gas.
> I'm not sure if I'm making wood gas with the
> non-motorized stove, although burning small 2 cm twigs
> compared to what I'm burning seems to work fine. In
> addition, there isn't much smoke given off.
>
> The fuel I used was somewhat dry, but I have a system
> for driving the water off future batch loads of fuel.
> (O.K. it is worked out in my head, but the "system" is
> fundamentally sound.)
>
> I'm interested in learning how to continuous feed a
> wood-gas stove. With a 2.75 hour burn time (and I
> think I can take it to 3.5 hours without breaking a
> sweet) I don't know why I have to do continuous feed.
> My stove can be continuous feed. With a emphasis on
> the "continuous" I can put a hole in the side and
> drop stuff in, but that doesn't appeal to me much
> better than just dropping it down the top of the
> stove. A sealed "gravity" chute in the side could
> work O.K. I guess with minimal expense. Seal both
> ends and open the on the burn chamber. Then you can
> add more wood on the other end. NO Tom Reed, I have
> not seen your new design. This will work though
> because it can keep the Air pressure up in the burn
> chamber and never has to open the burn chamber to the
> outside air. Plus, it can "dry" the fuel just a
> little more before it is added to the chamber. Sort
> of an inverted turbo stove. A wood-gas turbo stove
> hybrid. I like it. I can cook for hours in the North
> woods. Heck, you might not need a inside chamber
> cover, you would exit some gas when recharging, but I
> don't know if it would put out the pyrolysis. I guess
> the key is to meter out the amount of fuel introduced
> into the burn chamber. Easily enough done with a
> inverted Indiana Raccoon Cage trigger mechanism.
>
> My other solution for camping is just carry 2 stoves.
> They are so light. Just have 2 loaded, when one is
> almost done, fire up the second. Plus it is nice to
> have a 2nd stove incase something happens to the
> first. (Bears tend to steal them for hot coffee with
> their jam in the morning.)
>
> Some of my goals with my stove are:
>
> 1) Burn as efficiently at possible.
> 2) Collect as much heat energy as possible, recycle
> and not waste as much as possible.
> 3) Ease of use.
>
> These are the areas I've been working on for the last
> 10 months with quite a bit of success I might add.
> One place I need alot of work in is making the stove
> run cooler. (Burn fuel slower, a more even cooking
> temp.) One of my stoves actually whistles while it
> cooks. Melting the cooking stand. Not good, but fun.
>
> Later,
>
> Kyle
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From hstokes at blazenet.net Tue Nov 16 21:51:57 2004
From: hstokes at blazenet.net (hstokes at blazenet.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:51:57 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Missed Fuel Opportunity - 1974
In-Reply-To: <015401c4c59c$1a918150$3401a8c0@OFFICE>
References: <015401c4c59c$1a918150$3401a8c0@OFFICE>
Message-ID: <20041117035016.M11053@blazenet.net>

Dr. Andy Stokes, an MIT and a methanol man, had the same thing to say,
exactly.

Harry Stokes

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:06:09 -0700, TBReed wrote
> Dear Renewable Energy enthusiasts and Concerned Citizens:
>
> In 1973 at MIT I began using 10% methanol gasoline blends (M10) in
> my car and discovered that I achieved considerably better mileage
> and lower emissions than with gasoline. Same for 9 other cars
> selected at random. Methanol and mixed alcohols are the most likely
> renewable liquid fuels for spark ignited cars - all very high octane
> and clean burning. They can be made from natural gas, coal, wood or
> municipal waste.
>
> A retired oil man sent me and MIT a check for $100,000 to pursue
> this. It was administered through the new "MIT ENERGY LAB". We set
> up tests for MIT students and faculty to begin using this blend and
> report performance and any problems.
>
> Three months later oil and motor interests donated $1,000,000 to the
> MIT Energy Lab. I was told that the tests had to be cancelled
> because "the oil and motor companies" are experts in the field and
> would know if was practical. Money was taken from my account and
> the project closed down.
>
> Read all about it at http://www.woodgas.com/methanol.htm.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~ If we had begun using coal/gas/biomass to make
> synthetic fuels at that time we would have had a lever to control
> the cost of oil. We would not have sent the petrodollars to the
> Near East to fund the Iran-Iraq War, Dessert Storm, 9-11 and the
> current Iraq war.
>
> In 1974 we imported 14% of our oil. In 2001 we imported 57% of our
> oil. Big bucks for petro dollars.
>
> "Of all sad words of tongue or pen
> The Saddest are these - "It might have been". (James Whitcomb Riley)
>
> However, it isn't too late to develop a serious alternate to our
> dependence on oil and to funding terrorism in the U.S.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> TOM REED The Biomass Energy Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From omoluabi2002 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 17 07:15:46 2004
From: omoluabi2002 at yahoo.com (ranti adeyinka)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:15:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Stoves] Ring Kiln for charcoal
Message-ID: <20041117131546.825.qmail@web50905.mail.yahoo.com>

Dear Stover,

Thanks a lot for the assistant given to me when I was thinking for the right method to use for my charcoal carbonisation.I have finally design and constrcuct a ring kiln and I have been using it for the past two weeks and I have been getting a good yield of charcoal up to 95% conversion rate and now made average of 1.2 tonnes last week from a ring kiln.

However the problem I envisiage now is how to control the ring kiln during rain fall.Being from a temprate region (Nigeria in west Africa),I forsee a little problem probably the ring kiln stop carbonising if rainfall and this will distrupt my production schedule especially during raining season.

I will appreciate any advise or suggestion on how to go about it because I have just being given a go ahead to design ten more ring kilns for mass production of charcoal and need to plan this(controlling kilns during rain fall) with it.

Yinka Adewumi.
Lagos,Nigeria.
Tel.234 8023543693

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free!

From dmast at engr.colostate.edu Wed Nov 17 12:28:24 2004
From: dmast at engr.colostate.edu (dmast)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:28:24 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Need stove statistics
Message-ID: <41AD6948@webmail.colostate.edu>

My name is Dan Mastbergen and I have been researching generating power from
stoves for the last few months. I am currently putting together a proposal for
an EPA grant to do my research on stoves. I am looking for a certain type of
statistic that I can't find. I would like to have some numbers that compare
the worldwide(or regional) particulate, CO, or NOx emissions from stoves to
those emitted from all other industrialized sources. Something like "_____ kg
of particulates are released from stoves each year (worldwide) vs. ______kg of
particulates emitted from cars and power generation." If you have anything
like this please let me know as soon as possible, I'm running out of time. I
need to get this paper out friday morning. If you know anyone who might have
this, please forward this to them.

my e-mail is dmast at engr.colostate.edu

Thanks,

Dan

From psanders at ilstu.edu Wed Nov 17 12:42:02 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S Anderson)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:42:02 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Need stove statistics
In-Reply-To: <41AD6948@webmail.colostate.edu>
References: <41AD6948@webmail.colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <1100716922.419b9b7a371b9@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Dan,

I know of only one document of merit. See Global Atmospheric Impacts of
Residential Fuels by Tami Bond and Chandra Venkataraman, and Omar Masera,
2004, in Energy for Sustainable Development.

I only saw the final draft, but I heard it was published already.]

Best wishes,

Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(in Brazil until 24 Dec 2005)

Citando dmast <dmast at engr.colostate.edu>:

> My name is Dan Mastbergen and I have been researching generating power from
>
> stoves for the last few months. I am currently putting together a proposal
> for
> an EPA grant to do my research on stoves. I am looking for a certain type of
>
> statistic that I can't find. I would like to have some numbers that compare
>
> the worldwide(or regional) particulate, CO, or NOx emissions from stoves to
> those emitted from all other industrialized sources. Something like "_____
> kg
> of particulates are released from stoves each year (worldwide) vs. ______kg
> of
> particulates emitted from cars and power generation." If you have anything
> like this please let me know as soon as possible, I'm running out of time. I
>
> need to get this paper out friday morning. If you know anyone who might have
>
> this, please forward this to them.
>
> my e-mail is dmast at engr.colostate.edu
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu

From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Nov 18 06:32:12 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S Anderson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:32:12 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Need stove statistics
In-Reply-To: <1100716922.419b9b7a371b9@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
References: <41AD6948@webmail.colostate.edu>
<1100716922.419b9b7a371b9@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <1100781132.419c964c37dd0@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Auke K told me the article is at
www.ieiglobal.org/esd.html

Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
(in Brazil until 24 Dec 2005)

Quoting Paul S Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>:

> Dan,
>
> I know of only one document of merit. See Global Atmospheric Impacts of
> Residential Fuels by Tami Bond and Chandra Venkataraman, and Omar Masera,
>
> 2004, in Energy for Sustainable Development.
>
> I only saw the final draft, but I heard it was published already.]
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Paul
> --
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
> (in Brazil until 24 Dec 2005)
>
>
> Citando dmast <dmast at engr.colostate.edu>:
>
> > My name is Dan Mastbergen and I have been researching generating power
> from
> >
> > stoves for the last few months. I am currently putting together a proposal
> > for
> > an EPA grant to do my research on stoves. I am looking for a certain type
> of
> >
> > statistic that I can't find. I would like to have some numbers that
> compare
> >
> > the worldwide(or regional) particulate, CO, or NOx emissions from stoves to
>
> > those emitted from all other industrialized sources. Something like
> "_____
> > kg
> > of particulates are released from stoves each year (worldwide) vs.
> ______kg
> > of
> > particulates emitted from cars and power generation." If you have anything
>
> > like this please let me know as soon as possible, I'm running out of time.
> I
> >
> > need to get this paper out friday morning. If you know anyone who might
> have
> >
> > this, please forward this to them.
> >
> > my e-mail is dmast at engr.colostate.edu
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> > Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu

From Gavin at aa3genergi.force9.co.uk Mon Nov 22 14:36:05 2004
From: Gavin at aa3genergi.force9.co.uk (Gavin Gulliver-Goodall)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:36:05 -0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: [Gasification] Retting biomass for pellets
In-Reply-To: <09bf01c4d0bb$740df4f0$3401a8c0@OFFICE>
Message-ID: <MABBJLGAAFJBOBCKKPMGEEPOEBAA.Gavin@aa3genergi.force9.co.uk>

What is the environmental impact of partly degraded jute in the water
source?
This sounds like it would be a controlled activity if it was operated in the
UK on an industrial or commercial scale.

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall

From crispin at newdawn.sz Tue Nov 23 00:36:43 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:36:43 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Retting biomass for pellets
Message-ID: <000701c4d127$346d13f0$838cfea9@home>

Dear Gavin

It is anything like formium tenax? Is it the same thing?

Regards
Crispin

++++++++++++

What is the environmental impact of partly degraded jute in the water
source? This sounds like it would be a controlled activity if it was
operated in the UK on an industrial or commercial scale.

Gavin Gulliver-Goodall

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From dstill at epud.net Thu Nov 25 11:02:29 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 09:02:29 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] volunteer
Message-ID: <20041125170230.14A2FDE@telchar.epud.net>

http://www.eugeneweekly.com/2004/11/24/news.html#1

A local Eugene volunteer is trying to raise $100,000 in the next 4 years to
purchase HELPS stoves in Guatemala, hoping to replace open fire cooking in
8,000 homes!

Happy Thanksgiving,

Dean

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Nov 26 15:58:32 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:58:32 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Chimney durability
Message-ID: <hk9fq0dkkntrndedehv7383inkkams3jj4@4ax.com>

This post didn't get through to the listserv, AJH

From: "Frans Peeters" <peetersfrans at pandora.be>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:46:17 +0100

Mar DEAN ,

Better use INOX 18/8 it last forever, cheaper after 15years !

Paint you like : Take varnish for motor-coil impregnation
=fenolformaldehyde (butanol solvent ) or beter silicon-varnish
You can mix it with aluminium powder paint for radiators till 1200)F
.
The best from NATO .
Spray box paint till 900? C for stoves ,not so thick ,for inside
,300cc
8 dollar .,
Mind ,iron corrodes from inside ,most by acetic acid from wood .

Greetings
Frans Peeters
Belgium

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Nov 26 16:51:27 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:51:27 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Grates, Peter Verhaart - urgent request for report
Message-ID: <socfq0l95u0923c0nv9vtms7valdqfb1j2@4ax.com>

This request may be relevant to Crispin's work even though it was
directed to Peter Verhaart and did not propagate on the listserv. AJH

From: "Patrick Van Sleight" <vansleight at energetic.uct.ac.za>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:19:59 +0200
Cc: <p.verhaart

Dear Mr Verhaart

I am urgently looking for a report that was published in September
1985
(Energy Department Paper No.27), about the results of testing commonly
used kerosene stoves to obtain a better understanding of their
performance and characteristics.

Regards,

Patrick van Sleight

175 years on... changing minds and histories.

Patrick van Sleight
Media & Information Officer Energy Research Centre
Faculty of Engineering and the Built Environment
University of Cape Town
Private Bag
Rondebosch, 7701
South Africa
vansleight at energetic.uct.ac.za
tel:
fax:
mobile: + 27 21 650 3230
+ 27 21 650 2830
+ 27 83 708 5027

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Nov 26 18:11:40 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:11:40 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Grates, Peter Verhaart - urgent request for report
References: <socfq0l95u0923c0nv9vtms7valdqfb1j2@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <01b601c4d415$ba8fbb40$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

All,

Many reports like these are not available on the web. With approval from the
author and publishing agency we can post these reports and papers on the
Stoves website.

Regards,

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
To: <stoves at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 2:51 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Grates, Peter Verhaart - urgent request for report

This request may be relevant to Crispin's work even though it was
directed to Peter Verhaart and did not propagate on the listserv. AJH

From: "Patrick Van Sleight" <vansleight at energetic.uct.ac.za>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:19:59 +0200
Cc: <p.verhaart

Dear Mr Verhaart

I am urgently looking for a report that was published in September
1985
(Energy Department Paper No.27), about the results of testing commonly
used kerosene stoves to obtain a better understanding of their
performance and characteristics.

Regards,

Patrick van Sleight

175 years on... changing minds and histories.

_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
Stoves at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Nov 26 21:32:40 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:32:40 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] =?iso-8859-1?q?Fw=3A_Starting_STOVES_automaticly_/__Cut?=
=?iso-8859-1?q?ting_Roots_with_2000=B0_F?=
Message-ID: <004201c4d431$c3e9ec30$6701a8c0@Yellow>

----- Original Message -----
From: Frans Peeters
To: stoves-owner at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 4:28 PM
Subject: Starting STOVES automaticly / Cutting Roots with 2000? F

Dear,

Some mailer was inventing long time for a IGNITER !

Here is my solution :use a welding apparatus ,output 22Volt 100 Amp into an inox wire 0,1 inch thick 3 or 4 foot long cooiled into the stove through ceramic isolators . Switching on the welding app. With any timer,computer ,or push buton for 30 seconds will start the fine wood stove .

I used this power for cutting out roots of 10 inch thick trees ! Moving half around,forward and backwards the white glowing wire ; the wet containing tree-root steaming smoke and so cuts under the ground surface !

Greetings,

Frans Peeters

peetersfrans at pandora.be

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Nov 27 08:16:14 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 14:16:14 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Grates, Peter Verhaart - urgent request for report
Message-ID: <p03hq0dvn8ob5aurfqoqg7026hr3un4lgq@4ax.com>

Crispin seems to have submitted this from an non subscribed address,
AJH.

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 06:23:52 -0500, Crispin?? wrote:

Dear Patrick and Friends

Please visit the PASASA (www.pasasa.org I think) for a complete list
of tested paraffin stoves available. I think there are 11 different
models. Giant, Panda, Primus etc.

Regards
Crispin off to Lubumbashi and the wonderful world of charcoal burning
on a city-wide scale

From pverhaart at iprimus.com.au Sun Nov 28 03:41:49 2004
From: pverhaart at iprimus.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:41:49 +1000
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Stoves] Grates, Peter Verhaart - urgent request for report
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041128194138.02de0180@pop.iprimus.com.au>

>Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:40:38 +1000
>To: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk
>From: Peter Verhaart <pverhaart at iprimus.com.au>
>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Grates, Peter Verhaart - urgent request for report
>Cc: support_ap at hgst.com
>
>Patrick,
>
> We (the Eindhoven based Woodburning Stove Group) did test on a
> large number of kerosene stoves from around the world (mostly Asia). The
> Report was done for the World Bank. It might be available from them. If
> you need details, I don't know them, you better ask Prasad.
>
>I remember one kerosene (multiwick) stove that came out near the top was
>from Indonesia. A good number of this make was later sent to an African
>country following a request by the World Bank.
>
>As I said, details should be obtainable from Prasad.
>
>Peter Verhaart
>
>At 22:51 26/11/04 +0000, you wrote:
>
>
>>This request may be relevant to Crispin's work even though it was
>>directed to Peter Verhaart and did not propagate on the listserv. AJH
>>
>>From: "Patrick Van Sleight" <vansleight at energetic.uct.ac.za>
>>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:19:59 +0200
>>Cc: <p.verhaart
>>
>>Dear Mr Verhaart
>>
>>I am urgently looking for a report that was published in September
>>1985
>>(Energy Department Paper No.27), about the results of testing commonly
>>used kerosene stoves to obtain a better understanding of their
>>performance and characteristics.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Patrick van Sleight
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 175 years on... changing minds and histories.
>>
>>
>>Patrick van Sleight
>>Media & Information Officer Energy Research Centre
>>Faculty of Engineering and the Built Environment
>>University of Cape Town
>>Private Bag
>>Rondebosch, 7701
>>South Africa
>>vansleight at energetic.uct.ac.za
>>tel:
>>fax:
>>mobile: + 27 21 650 3230
>>+ 27 21 650 2830
>>+ 27 83 708 5027
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Stoves mailing list
>>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From kmbryden at iastate.edu Sun Nov 28 09:55:04 2004
From: kmbryden at iastate.edu (Mark Bryden)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 09:55:04 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] ETHOS 2005
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041128094954.075b1b48@kmbryden.mail.iastate.edu>

Everyone

Mark your calendars, ETHOS 2005 will be held January 29-30 in Seattle,
Washington, USA. As many of you know a lot has happened in the past year
and I'm excited to hear all about it.

The conference themes this year will include:
Lab research, including: insulative materials, efficiency testing,
emissions monitoring, safety updates and design issues, gasifier advances,
hayboxes/insulative cookers, integrated cooking.
Field experience, including monitoring of: performance, indoor air
pollution exposure, health impacts, user satisfaction, time and
socio-economic impacts; awareness raising; stove promotion; involvement of
volunteers and local universities; lessons and modification to approaches.

Efficiency versus effectiveness, and resulting design implications.

Technology standards: key parameters, constraints.

Policy issues: role of U.S. partnerships and international donors,
country-level leadership, subsidies versus commercialization.

Full information is available at
http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/~kmbryden/ethos/ethos2005.htm

ETHOS 2004 reports and presentations are available at
http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/~kmbryden/ethos/ethos2004.htm

Online registration will be available in within a week.

See you there.

Mark

___________________________________________________________
Kenneth "Mark" Bryden, Ph.D. Associate Professor
kmbryden at iastate.edu Iowa State University
ph: 515-294-3891 3030 Black Engineering Bldg
fax: 515-294-3261 Ames, Iowa 50011-2161

From aambiental at clix.pt Mon Nov 29 15:11:11 2004
From: aambiental at clix.pt (Antonio Lambe)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:11:11 +0000
Subject: [Stoves] Stoves for Peru
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20041129172015.01c41ae8@pop.clix.pt>

Dear Colleagues,

I represent an NGO that has begun working with indigenous communities at
up to 4,000m in the Andes. Our main goal is restoration of cloud forest on
which several almost extinct endemic birds depend.

Part of our strategy has been the distribution of split plantation wood
and simple terracotta cookers which sit over a small indoor fire and have
2-3 openings on which pots are placed. These are somewhat more efficient
than the burning branches and a few surrounding stones used
previously. Still, most of the energy is lost while all of the smoke is
retained since the cookers, in often-windowless dwellings, have no chimneys.

I know there are manifold stove designs which are both far more efficient
and incorporate chimneys. But (hurried) research has found no comparative
evaluation which could help one decide on the most appropriate device. If
such a study exists, I would be grateful if a reader could advise
me. Otherwise, I would welcome and will reply to any cooker suggestions.

Essentially what I believe we need is something easy to build, or
manufacture, efficient, and, ideally, inexpensive. Transport is not a
problem with some communities; but weight and bulk are challenges for
hamlets reachable only on foot. An added consideration: because of the
often frigid and damp montane conditions, can simple chimney fins be added
or the duct lengthened to provide modest indoor heating and drying?

For those concerned with the risk of creating a welfare mentality, our
intention is to furnish the stoves in exchange for tree planting and other
such work. Suggestions in this area will also be welcome.

Thank you.

Antonio Lambe
AC??O AMBIENTAL para O BARLAVENTO
APARTADO 373 PORTIM?O - 8500 PORTUGAL
Tel/Fax: +351 282 442 345 Correio electr?nico: aambiental at clix.pt

From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Nov 29 12:07:52 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:07:52 -0800
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: charcoal making equipment and briquetting equipment
Message-ID: <00c401c4d65d$81e55710$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

We get this kind of request once in awhile. What charcoal making eqipment is
available?

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: <rbarjon at tampabay.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 8:31 AM
Subject: charcoal making equipment and briquetting equipment

>
> I would like to request the cost and volume capacity of charcoal making
> and briquetting machines.
> Thank you,
>
> Regine Barjon
> HDA
> EM: rbarjon at tampabay.rr.com
> Tel: 813-831-5956
> Fax: 813-831-8477
>
>
>
>

From Carefreeland at aol.com Mon Nov 29 22:19:37 2004
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:19:37 EST
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: charcoal making equipment and briquetting equipment
Message-ID: <1a3.2c2ac182.2edd4ed9@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/29/04 4:51:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tmiles at trmiles.com writes:

DD : Dan Dimiduk comments
>
>
> We get this kind of request once in awhile. What charcoal making eqipment is
>
> available?
>
> Tom Miles
>
>
DD I do not have any equipment available at this time. I am however very
interested in the market potential for manufacturing parts for such equipment and
much more. At some point in the future, I plan on the construction of a farm
scale, charcoal fueled foundry. This later could be extended to include
forging, metal fabrication, and machine shops, extensively utilizing renewable
energy sources. My greenhouses could benefit from all waste heat.
DD I am always adding to the long list of products which have limited markets
and therefore are of little interest to the large scale foundries and
fabrication shops. It would serve my intentions well, to first provide cast iron and
specialty steel products to the emerging renewable energy markets.
DD My intention is to provide inventors in the renewables industries, an
INEXPENSIVE way to produce experimental prototype and limited production run
equipment. Every inventor deserves to see his / her work cast in metal.
DD My long list of products of interest includes: wood, charcoal and other
biomass fueled stoves and burners, gasifer castings and related hardware such as
gas cleaning equipment, charcoal production and processing equipment, biomass
raw resource harvesting/handling/processing equipment, biomass digestion
equipment, biomass refining/ distillation and equipment for final marketing prep.
Pollution control equipment for all of the above.
DD Under the general heading of renewable energy and sustainable development:
solar thermal/photovoltaic collector and concentrator parts, small scale wind
energy harvesting parts.( note, water has been pumped for centuries with
direct drive). Small scale hydro equipment and related hardware, small scale water
collection, storage and purification equipment. Also, the landscaping,
greenhouse and some farming industries are all familiar to me.
DD I probably missed quite a few categories. I am sick and tired of hearing
from skeptics that there is no market for domestic specialty cast iron and
steel products because of China import syndrome. In the next breath those same
skeptics complain about availability of products and inventions they would make
if they could.

DD Many on this list have expressed an interest in development of pet
projects. Is this the type of business we need as a catalyst for development of
Bioenergy industry? I feel if we all wait for government or institutional action we
will all be long dead before anything happens. I would be happy to read
E-mail from potential future customers. I want to know what markets are most in
immediate need of these types of products/service.
DD By expressing your interest, you will motivate me towards farther
construction of this facility. I have a long term lease on land which is actually
zoned for my experimental greenhouse. This summer I masonry lined, my hand dug
well. Much hard work needs done before foundry construction can begin. If enough
potential orders were outstanding, the profit motive would propel me forward.
I do have a family to feed and I try to make all of my projects profitable
ASAP.
DD My fuel supply is assured. I am moving towards a full time, automated,
construction woodlot clearing business. The land has historically been a small
landfill operation and much low grade biomass can be obtained along with a
tipping fee. An opportunity to develop this property will pass at some time in the
uncertain distant future, due to future land ownership changes.
DD My object is a to prove the viability of interrelated, interlocked
sustainable industries on a micro-cottage scale. I am always thinking what we would
be doing if we were living on Mars. My Shangri-La is the trial and error
manifestation and hands on demonstration of these thoughts. You could say it is an
experiment in vertical integration for a sustainable future.
DD One can rest assured that I have more than enough projects of my own to
develop, that I have no need to steal intellectual property. On the contrary, If
you trust me, I may help you find markets and consultants for your projects.
A patent is worthless with no market. I will make my money selling you metal
or on side deals, I do trade ;-)
Thank you,

Daniel J. Dimiduk, Founder :
Carefree Landscape Maintenance Co. ( since 1980)
Shangri-La Research and Development Co. ( since 1990)
Ohio Charcoal and Iron Company ( under development)

From elk at wananchi.com Tue Nov 30 23:12:33 2004
From: elk at wananchi.com (Elsen Karstad)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:12:33 +0300
Subject: [Stoves] Charcoal Briquetting- Chardust Update.
Message-ID: <009a01c4d765$310e3560$1350083e@toshibauser>

At Chardust Ltd. we're not currently involved in the manufacture of charcoal. We salvage (purchase) the discarded bottom-of-the-sack dust from the many urban charcoal wholesaling sites around Nairobi, but we do briquette a reasonable amount of this material. We're pleased to note that charcoal dust is rarely 'discarded' in Nairobi these days- it's heaped in neat piles for our collection lorries.

Our vendor's waste charcoal briquettes average 35 grams & are pillow-shaped. We are currently idling along at an average daily output of 7.2 tons & selling mainly to poultry farmers (chick brooder heating), hotels, lodges and restaurants (cooking and water heating) and directly to the domestic consumer partly via five dedicated Chardust sales kiosks we've scattered around Nairobi. Our prices are largely determined by prevailing bush-charcoal prices. Current ex-factory selling price is USD $0.08 per kg, (bush charcoal averages $0.14/kg). We start seeing modest profits at outputs over 150 tons per month.

Vendor's waste charcoal differs from pure wood charcoal by having a higher ash content (30%) and a resultant longer slower and cleaner burn. This is advantageous for most commercial uses but proves less than satisfactory to many consumers using the smallest charcoal stoves, as the ash-inhibited burn rate is more pronounced with very small stoves (cap'y less than 12 briquettes).

Our Indian-made roller briquetters come in two sizes- rated outputs at 1 ton & 1.5 ton per hour using 7.5 & 10 KW motors respectively. This output level can be achieved using high quality binder & consistent particle size, but attempts to save money by deviating from the optimum binder recipe results in increased breakage that must be recycled. No major problem, but we've seen output fall to around half of the rated capacity. It's a trade-off that can, in some circumstances, be justified.

Kilns used for carbonising wood come in many sizes and shapes, from the simple and inefficient earthen mound (8 to 10% conversion) through a variety of clay and brick kilns to large steel Quonset types (15 to 25% conversion) to cutting-edge low-emission partially closed-cycle heat conserving computer controlled turnkey plants claiming conversion rates of up to 38%. We are about to begin trials along the coast here with a 9m long South-African made steel 'Quonset' kiln in the hope that a variety of local agri-industrial by products can be carbonised- coconut husk is of particular interest.

elk
--------------------------------
Elsen L. Karstad
elk at wananchi.com
www.chardust.com
Nairobi, Kenya

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

November 2004 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive