September 2004 Gasification Archive

For more information to help people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions, please see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org

From dstill at epud.net Thu Sep 2 09:28:11 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:28:11 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] how free are smoke free stoves.
In-Reply-To: <1399.213.177.167.146.1094119074.squirrel@webmail.kampalabuzz.com>
Message-ID: <20040902142811.08DB2121@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Duncan,

Adding a chimney will not necessarily reduce fuel efficiency. Yesterday we
tested a two pot with chimney stove made for Uganda that used less than 500
grams of wood to boil 5 liters of water and raised the temperature of the
second 5 liters to 37C. The first pot boiled in less than 15 minutes.

The trick to using a chimney without reducing heat transfer efficiency is to
force the hot flue gases to travel up the sides of the pot using a pot skirt
allowing an even open space near the top of the pot for the hot gases to
flow DOWN next to the outside of the skirt to the opening leading to the
chimney.

The tunnels leading to the chimney should be below the level of the pot.
Heat travels up the annulus between pot and skirt as in a stove without a
chimney. Larry Winiarski invented this option at least 10 years ago.

If a chimney exits near the top of a pot hot flue gases flow directly to the
chimney reducing heat transfer to the pot.

It is possible to add a chimney to almost any stove. Using an adjustable
skirt that seals near the top of the pots various sizes of pots can be used.

Many stoves can be clean burning. In our tests we have seen Tom Reed's
stove, Paul Anderson's stove, The Vesto, The Rocket, an open fire, burn
without creating visible smoke. But all of these stoves can be used
incorrectly and then make too much pollution to be used indoors. In my
opinion, eventually the poor deserve as much protection as the rich and
should be provided with chimneys. The solution to health problems caused by
smoke is known and has been in use for centuries here in the richer
countries. Until chimneys are in every home not just in the homes of the
well-to-do there are stove alternatives that reduce IAP. Better ones will be
developed in the next few years, I'm sure.

Best,

Dean

-----Original Message-----
From: duncan at kampalabuzz.com [mailto:duncan at kampalabuzz.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 1:58 AM
To: dstill at epud.net
Subject: RE: [Stoves] how free are smoke free stoves.

is there a completely/almost smoke free stove then, that could be already
in use, perhaps in the high tech countries.coz in africa, where mostly the
3-stone fire and lorena stove prevails, surely smoke is innevitable.

'a chimney will certainly reduce the efficiency and power produced, so i
thought, it should always be avoided if posible.

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Sep 2 17:19:41 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 00:19:41 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] RE:how free are smoke free stoves.
Message-ID: <000101c4913b$075d0090$0100a8c0@home>

Dear Stovers

I want to jump on Deans bandwagon of advocating chimneys to solve a lot
of problems (if the Halifax Hermit didn't shout loudest about it first).

I have had the rare priviledge of having a very advanced piece of
equipment to analyze combustion and it is just about impossible to tell
'from experience' what the pollution is when looking at a fire. Things
that seem quite normal and 'good' are often dreadful emitters of CO.

I have decided that to train people in the making of the paraffin stove
(which I will do in Bloemfontein this coming week), which can have huge
difference in emissions depending on a few minor changes, I will have to
discuss with the students what to look for in a good flame. I am trying
to convince myself that one could learn what a clean burning stove
'looks like' but it certainly isn't intuitive for me. What the meter
says is a shock sometimes. There is not a lot of dimensional difference
between 4500 ppm and 60 ppm CO.

For example last night I was testing how much oxygen was available in
the stack of the paraffin stove, having reduced the number of 8mm holes
feeding air from 58 to 43. The flame looked pretty good but there
simply wasn't enough air getting in = 1% excess oxygen. It was
starving. Putting in the 58 holes raised O2 to 6% and the CO dropped
from 4% to 0.03%. I _think_ it will be possible to train people to make
clean burning stoves, but a chimney solves a number of things and covers
a number of sins. Making a really clean wood fire takes experience and
a knowledge of the fuel, which I expect people living in an area for a
long time to gain. For the rest of us, a chimney isn't such an
expensive addition.

Regards
Crispin

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Sep 2 10:54:08 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:54:08 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Safe Stove Competition
Message-ID: <000201c491a4$121beaa0$0100a8c0@md>

Paraffin Safety Association challenges designers to build a safer stove

Every day some 20-million South Africans are forced to cook on dangerous, sub-standard paraffin stoves; most are aware of the risks but have no choice as there are no safer alternatives.

The Paraffin Safety Association is striving to address this problem on two fronts: we are working with government, scientific and regulatory bodies to set mandatory standards for paraffin stoves and, together with Proudly South African, we have launched a stove competition to encourage innovative South Africans to come up with a safe, affordable stove.

There are up to R500 00 worth of prizes to be won.

Anyone can enter either as an individual or as a team but a minimum requirement for entry is a working prototype of your design. The deadline for entries is 5 November 2004. All entries will be judged and only successful entrants will be short-listed to submit their working prototype. All prototypes will be thoroughly tested and the winners will be announced in March next year

For more information call 021 4243473 or check out our website, www.pasasa.org

Haidee Wheatley
Paraffin Safety Association
Tel: 021 424 3473
Fax: 021 424 3496
Mobile: 082 566 2826
Email: haidee at pasasa.org

From tombreed at comcast.net Fri Sep 3 07:07:11 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (TBReed)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:07:11 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Minimal emission, maximum efficiency combustion
References: <000101c4913b$075d0090$0100a8c0@home>
Message-ID: <013f01c491ae$8c6a99f0$3201a8c0@OFFICE>

Dear Crispin and All:

For >100,000 years fire has been the human's friend and enemy. Arguably humans could not exist without fire. Cooking is a major extension of the digestion process and makes possible the enormous variety of food we use compared to primates.

For <40 years it has been possible to measure the correct air/fuel ratio for complete combustion of fuels using the stabilized ZrO2 oxygen sensor now on every vehicle and giving a signal changing from >0.7 mv for rich flames and <0.2 mv for lean flames. The availability of these cheap sensors should soon make them mandatory for most industrial combustion processes, including at least some cooking applications. ($50 for those heated by the exhaust, < $1000 for wide band sensors that can measure a linearized signal across the lean-rich transition) Once one knows where complete combustion occurs it is a relatively simple matter to adjust the air/fuel ratio, even by hand.

Unfortunately, those who burn solid fuels often can't afford to put these or the cheaper CO sensors in a chimney or hood above their fires. So we need to use standardized fuels so that we can at least approximate the correct air fuel ratios. Palletizing fuels gives a much more convenient, shippable, storable usable fuel that one can burn much more cleanly. The wood pellet and corn stoves are the tip of the iceberg of clean combustion for heat.

Looking forward to a new level of civilization and health with clean combustion, I remain your truly, J

Thomas Reed BEF etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <crispin at newdawn.sz>
To: <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 4:19 PM
Subject: [Stoves] RE:how free are smoke free stoves.

> Dear Stovers
>
> I want to jump on Deans bandwagon of advocating chimneys to solve a lot
> of problems (if the Halifax Hermit didn't shout loudest about it first).
>
> I have had the rare priviledge of having a very advanced piece of
> equipment to analyze combustion and it is just about impossible to tell
> 'from experience' what the pollution is when looking at a fire. Things
> that seem quite normal and 'good' are often dreadful emitters of CO.
>
> I have decided that to train people in the making of the paraffin stove
> (which I will do in Bloemfontein this coming week), which can have huge
> difference in emissions depending on a few minor changes, I will have to
> discuss with the students what to look for in a good flame. I am trying
> to convince myself that one could learn what a clean burning stove
> 'looks like' but it certainly isn't intuitive for me. What the meter
> says is a shock sometimes. There is not a lot of dimensional difference
> between 4500 ppm and 60 ppm CO.
>
> For example last night I was testing how much oxygen was available in
> the stack of the paraffin stove, having reduced the number of 8mm holes
> feeding air from 58 to 43. The flame looked pretty good but there
> simply wasn't enough air getting in = 1% excess oxygen. It was
> starving. Putting in the 58 holes raised O2 to 6% and the CO dropped
> from 4% to 0.03%. I _think_ it will be possible to train people to make
> clean burning stoves, but a chimney solves a number of things and covers
> a number of sins. Making a really clean wood fire takes experience and
> a knowledge of the fuel, which I expect people living in an area for a
> long time to gain. For the rest of us, a chimney isn't such an
> expensive addition.
>
> Regards
> Crispin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Fri Sep 3 07:14:06 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:44:06 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] cooked vs.uncooked food
Message-ID: <000401c491b5$57d4f9e0$a55841db@adkarve>

This is an interesting debate. Tom Reed said that cooking was an extension of our stomachs. Let me elaborate on this point. It is not just the cooking that renders the food digestible but also processing in many other forms. Rice and dicoccum wheat have a tough hull surrounding the kernel. This has to be removed. If we were to chew on unhusked rice or dicoccum wheat, we would wear away our teeth as the husk is full of silica. Most grains are extremely hard and therefore difficult to chew. A friend of mine read somewhere that Roman soldiers were issued with rations consisting of wheat grains and that they would eat the grain directly without grinding or baking. My friend tried it for a couple of days and then gave it up as he got tooth ache by masticating the hard grain. The dentist told him that the tooth enamel had worn out. My own studies with legumes showed me that almost all the leguminous seeds that serve humans as food are firstly too hard to be eaten raw, secondly, have a seed coat that is full of tannins which interfere with protein digestion and thirdly have antinutritional factors such as tripsin inhibitors, gagging factors that choke you if you ate the seed etc. Removal of the seedcoat and cooking the seed render them more easily digestible. Our stomachs cannot digest cellulose. Therefore, if we ate vegetables raw, the cell contents would not become available to us as they are enclosed by an undigestible coating of cellulose, namely the cell walls. Fruits, especially the ripe ones, are digestible because the process of ripening disintegrates the cells walls. But most fruits lack calories. The calories are in the seeds and not in the flesh of the fruit (with the exception of some tropical fruits like banana, mango, papaya, and a few others). However, the flesh of most fruits contain purgative factors, because it is to the benefit of the plants that the seeds are passed out of the digestive system of the birds and mammals without getting digested. And do you know why most of the reptiles are carnivorous? The modern plants are armed with nasty chemicals like silica, alcaloids, tannins, lectins, saponins, ricin, abrutin, cyanogenic glucosides, etc. The modern plants, birds and mammals evolved together. Because of this co-evolution, mammals and birds evolved the mechanisms of overcoming the defenses of the plants, but the poor reptiles, who survived the cataclysmic events 6.5 million years ago did not have any defence agains the poisonous plants. They could only digest meat, because flesh of animals is not poisonous. I therefore feel, that if man has to survive without cooking or otherwise processing his food, he may have to depend entirely on flesh of animals.
Yours
A.D.Karve

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sat Sep 4 11:25:59 2004
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:25:59 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] More on Kathmandu University work on stoves
Message-ID: <001801c4929b$ffc4f2e0$6a6d0443@ronallarson>

Stovers:

I have just finished a week of reporting, for the American Solar Energy Society's magazine (Solar Today), on the World Renewable Energy Congress (WREC) held in Denver. I believe that the only other three stoves list members were Ralph Overend (one of the organizers), Bryan Wilson and Tom Reed (the last two for a day or so). A highlight was stumbling into a session with a really nice talk by Alex Zahnd - the person I believe was the main developer of the stove(s?) described by Kanachan Rai - and perhaps still Kanchan's immediate supervisor. New insights I gained were:

1. Alex is Swiss and has worked at KU for about 20 years on a number of development topics. He is married to an Indian woman and speaks excellent Nepalese (according to two other Nepalis there). He made modifications on the stove over several years use first in his own home, before going to the field. A photo of Alex is at Kanchan's site. I don't quite understand the arrrangement, but it sounds like Alex is essentially unpaid. He was a most enthusiastic and excellent speaker, quite frustrated by not having all the tools he was prepared to use in his multi-media presentation. I am getting a revised opinion all the time about the capabilities of KU.

2. The stove is designed only for Nepal's highest sites - where three holes are mandatory for the traditional food preparation It contains an internal baffle and the upward sloping surface towards the vent pipe was "tuned" in height and length to get flame impingement on the latter two smaller pots (more a parallel arrangement than series). All of the pots remain above the stove top (none imbedded), but I believe all can be closed off for the important task of space heating. I had previously missed the roti cooker which sort of works like an electric toaster in the States. The narrow opening, slight canting, and dimensions allow for ease of insertion and turning - while meeting the needs of local customs, who formerly cooked right on the open (and smoky) coals. There is a sliding door, to keep out air when not in use. Anyone seen one like this before (not me)? (you'll have to go back to the web site given below to understand the geometry which is best understood with Kanchan's drawings).
The lower part of the stove is coated internally with mud- serving both as an insulator and stove life-extender. It has more curves than shown in any of the drawings or photos - that is, the back of the stove is much shallower than the front (firebox) than I had previously realized. Wet shoes can be stuck under the back part of the stove. This probably also helped lower the shipping costs.
Alex didn't mention an outside coating of mud, but I see some evidence of that in some of Kanchan's (more likely Alex's) photos.

3. Temperature control is by both a chimney damper and a front control knob - with the stove able to be quite air tight. Customer satisfaction reported to be very good. Design life intended for 10-12 years. Considerable use of added metal in several key locations to prevent warping and extend life.

4. They have or will be designing different stoves for lower elevations. The stove described and on Kanchan's site is about half subsidized from foreign donors - (maybe essentially paying for transportation). Getting a stove subsidy requires local construction first of a pit latrine.

5. Lighting is now being accomplished with a Nepali-manufactured LED system operating with 3 strings of 3 bulbs each of 1 Watt ($1 each in his 10k quantities) across 12 volts; total unit being manufactured and sold locally for about $20. Design by Alex; well received by the villagers - for many of whom this was the first ever artificial light ever seen. I didn't get the details on the PV (or micro-hydro?) requirement.

6. It is a pleasure to endorse what Alex is doing and accomplishing in Nepal. Any donors or donor agencies listening in should look into Alex' good work - which is surely also helping with Kanchan's stove web site, which I previously (July 23) described as the best I have seen (see address below). (Incidentally, Alex also reported on how bright and hard working Kanchan is.) Alex also bemoaned the recent loss of a key piece of experimental hardware - whose replacement could take months. This is to encourage Alex to report on this and other needs he might have.

Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Larson
To: Kanchan Rai ; STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: Website on RDC, Kathmandu Universtiy work on stoves

Stovers - today Kanchan Rai wrote in part:

1. RE EXPERIMENTAL POSTINGS:
> I haven't put any thing on my experimental results since I am just
> working on setting my stove testing laboratory properly. I have my
> previous test results but I don't want to put right now as I need to
> verify the results again. My previous experiments were quite rough with
> few equipements and with no laboratory. Luckily I manage to get some
> good instruments and data logging things. I'll update my researh updates
> in coming days.

RWL: My bet is that your "crude" results are better than most of us have reported - especially if you have done any boiling water tests. Since you have thousands of units out there, I guess there may be something that would be interesting and our comments might help in your forthcoming measurements.

2. RE AIR CONTROL:
> Yes! there will be no air control in rocket stove, as in rocket stove
> the burning rate will be controlled by fuel feeding.
> >
RWL: I look forward to seeing experimental efficiency results comparing the two stoves. The concern I have with the Rocket is the very high excess air ratios reported. I would like to hear that the exhaust stream has about 9-10% Oxygen (or less if clean) and not the 19-20% that I hear from the Rockets. (Modern power plants are unhappy - for efficiency reasons - when their exhaust Oxygen is as high as 1%. And they have very complete combustion!!)
There is no doubt that one can control the burn rate with fuel feeding - but the issue I am wondering about is that of the relationship between efficiency and air control.
Can you report to us on why you used a closed fuel chamber and air control in the main design on your web site? (which is www.ku.edu.np/~kanchan)

Ron

From monogle at oregoncoast.com Sun Sep 5 09:01:06 2004
From: monogle at oregoncoast.com (Damon Ogle)
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 07:01:06 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Materials for Stoves ?
Message-ID: <413B1C21.BBE8C0C7@oregoncoast.com>

Fellow Stovers,

The following summary is my response to a kind offer of help from Vivek
Krishnan of Auburn University. Vivek is pursuing his PhD and is working
with electrical ceramics. He wanted to know what materials we needed
help with at Aprovecho. I thought I would throw this out to the Stove
community in general for ideas and comments.

MATERIAL FOR STOVES ?

I see three critical needs for improved stove materials at this
time. I would prioritize them as follows:
1. We need a coating or enamel which can be applied to thin sheet
metal (or to inexpensive heat-resistant metals like 3CR12 or 309
stainless) which will protect the metals when they are heated to red-hot
or
orange-hot temperatures. Test stoves made of thin sheet metal and
backed by light weight insulation (wood ash or vermiculite) perform very
well for both wood consumption and emissions, but they tend to burn out
within a few weeks.
2. We need a strong, heat resistant material which can be made
into grates for stoves. Again, the temperature encountered will be
higher
than "normal". For example, a down-draft stove might require a grate of
3
mm bars spaced 5 to 10mm apart and might reach temperatures of 1000 to
1100 C. This material need not be low density or insulative, but it
must
be physically strong and very resistant to thermal stress.
3. We would love to see a very light weight, refractory material
which could be formed into tubes (say 7 to 15 cm ID) and used as
combustion chambers. We have not yet been successful in producing an
affordable one-piece tube which will not crack after repeated use. One
possibility which comes to mind is a ceramic foam made of a material
with a very low co-efficient of expansion (like quartz glass or lithium
compounds).
All of the above materials would also have to be 1. Safe and
2.Affordable.
There is disagreement about how "high-tech" or "low-tech" a stove
material needs to be. Some NGOs and their funding organizations
insist that all parts of the stove must be produced locally using
ancient
techniques. Others argue that "good" stoves can only be produced in
factories where materials and dimensions can be quality controlled. I
tend to be a pragmatist. If a certain critical component of the stove
can
be produced using a sophisticated technology and shipped in for final
assembly, that would be fine with me. It is important that the imported

part (or stove) be mass produced cheaply enough that the stove is
still affordable to the end user. We also want to avoid technologies
which
are so complicated that the only "factory" in the country is the one
owned
by the President's brother-in-law and prices rise accordingly.
My gut feeling is that we need to concentrate on what "works" first
and then figure out how to keep the cost down.

Thanks for your help,

Damon

From ronallarson at qwest.net Sun Sep 5 19:02:08 2004
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:02:08 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Re: More on Kathmandu University work on stoves
References: <OAEOLFGMLJJMJAFKBKIJIECACFAA.azahnd@wlink.com.np>
Message-ID: <025101c493a4$c202cea0$07630443@ronallarson>

Stovers:

<RWL: This is to correct several errors I made in describing Alex and the LEDs:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Zahnd" <azahnd at wlink.com.np>
To: "Ron Larson" <ronallarson at qwest.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 1:19 PM
Subject: RE: More on Kathmandu University work on stoves

> Hi Ron

(RWL: I skip a few sentences of thanks on reporting his work.
I repeat that any financial help given to Alex and Kanchan looks to me as though it will be very carefully spent. Alex showed more photos of Jumla - and it is as small a settlement as it is poor and remote. I am amazed.
I believe Alex now has set up there an important high altitude computerized laboratory - but all data communication out is still on CDs. )

> First:
> - I worked now almost 4 years in the Kathmandu University, with previously
> almost 5 years in Jumla, one of the very remote places in western Nepal, 7
> days walk away from the next road.
> - Previous to that I worked alongside various small NGOs now and then in
> Nepal, since 1983, though with 5 years interruption in between, which make my
> involvement in Nepal since 20 years and my actual staying in Nepal about 12
> years.

<RWL: I had mistakenly reported all 20 years at Kathmandu University>
>
> Second:
> The WLED (white light emitting diode) light is made wit 9 WLED (from Nichia
> usually) and the whole light (with 9 diodes) consumes 1 Watt. Each diode
> costs 1 US$ in bulk purchase (10,000) thus the diodes only almost US$ 10,
> with the full light cost of US$ 18 - 20. Life expectancy 100,000 hours,
> which would be over 40 years with 6 hours per day, but we think more
> realistic it is 20-30 years, which is still amazing!

<RWL: I had mistakenly reported 1 watt each - maybe because they were amazingly bright when pointed at me. About 20 ma each, I guess.>

>
> Ron please stay in contact, especially with Kanchan as he is one of my two
> research assistants and thus I am constant in contact with him.
> Thus I remain with best greetings and thanks for your encouragement
> Cheers
> Alex Zahnd
>
>
<snip rest of message I sent yesterday>

From eugene at energetic.uct.ac.za Mon Sep 6 02:06:14 2004
From: eugene at energetic.uct.ac.za (Eugene Visagie)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:06:14 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Energy content of paraffin wax?
Message-ID: <005401c493df$ff9918b0$3c1e9e89@pceugene>

Dear All
Many poor households use candles for lighting. We are using LEAP to make scenario projections.
Can you tell me what is the energy content of paraffin wax ?
Thanks
Eugene

From pverhaart at iprimus.com.au Mon Sep 6 05:32:45 2004
From: pverhaart at iprimus.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 20:32:45 +1000
Subject: [Stoves] Materials for Stoves ?
In-Reply-To: <413B1C21.BBE8C0C7@oregoncoast.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040906202807.021fdf18@pop.iprimus.com.au>

At 07:01 05/09/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>Fellow Stovers,
>
>Snip

> 2. We need a strong, heat resistant material which can be made
>into grates for stoves. Again, the temperature encountered will be
>higher
>than "normal". For example, a down-draft stove might require a grate of
>3
>mm bars spaced 5 to 10mm apart and might reach temperatures of 1000 to
>1100 C. This material need not be low density or insulative, but it
>must
>be physically strong and very resistant to thermal stress.

As well as having no affinity to hot ash eg not forming clincker with the
grate material. Temperature resistant up to 1300 C.

Completely in accord with the remainder of your mail, Damon.

Peter Verhaart

From tmiles at trmiles.com Mon Sep 6 14:45:58 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:45:58 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] ETHOS stove camp 2004
References: <20040906062726.6F1885F@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <022101c4944a$25708b80$6601a8c0@Yellow>

Stovers,

Find Dean's report on the ETHOS Sumer 2004 Stove Camp below and WITH
PICTURES on the Cooking stoves website at:
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/ethos/2004Camp/Camp2004.html

or linked from
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/

Also see Dale Andreatta's Stove Camp report on Heat Transfer
http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/stoves/Andreatta/Stovecampdoc.pdf

Thanks Dean and Dale,

Tom Miles

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Still" <dstill at epud.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 11:27 PM
Subject: FW:ETHOS stove camp 2004

> Dear Friends,
>
> The 2004 Summer Stoves Camp finished up a couple of weeks ago. There were
17
> attendees from Nepal, Mexico and the US. Grad students from Iowa State and
> Colorado State worked as hard as they usually do, burning midnight oil
when
> I was home relaxing. Dr. Tami Bond (U of I), Dr. Paul Anderson (IS), Dr.
> Alan Berick (Lawrence Livermore, retired), and Dr. Bryan Wilson (CSU)
> created wonders and as professors do, worked harder than their students.
>
> The ETHOS "Best Distance Made Good to Windward" prize went to the guys
from
> Colorado State who lit a Coleman mantle creating a brilliant white light
> using wood gas! Honorable mentions went to Dr. Dale Andreatta who stayed
in
> his lab in Ohio but was to be considered "in residence" at camp. His
report
> on a week of experimentation with heat transfer is fascinating, as we have
> come to expect from Dale. (It is included here.) The students from Iowa
> State came very close to winning with their improvement of the VITA stove
> designed by Baldwin. Preliminary tests showed a 4 fold improvement in
> emissions!!
>
> Everyone was impressed with Paul Anderson's progress with the Junta stove.
> It did very well on both fuel efficiency and emissions! Great to see Paul
> succeeding to improve batch fed charcoal making stoves!
>
> A list of accomplishments includes:
>
> Creating a refugee stove from World Food Program cans that boils 5 litres
of
> water in 14 minutes using less than 400 grams of wood while making little
> smoke.
>
> Making a simple to build inexpensive institutional stove for the WFP from
a
> single 55 gallon drum that boils 25 gallons of water.
>
> Exploring self feeding using downdraft/downfeed to potentially be used to
> drive machines or lanterns.
>
> Trying out the ITDG protocols for testing CO and particulates in houses
and
> finding that the concentration of CO seems much more dependent on height
of
> sensor in the room not distance from the fire.
>
> Classes covered:
>
> How to make lightweight ceramic refractory materials
>
> How to make a Trees, Water, & People Justa stove
>
> A comprehensive introduction to stove design
>
> How to make a sheet metal camping stove from tin cans
>
> How to test stoves for fuel efficiency and emissions
>
> Participants split up into working groups and spent two days making
> prototypes to experiment with problems of interest. Please see photos for
> results...
>
> Victor Berrueta who tests stoves for GIRA, an NGO in Mexico, received a
full
> scholarship to the course and spent a week at Aprovecho exchanging ideas.
He
> is a very gifted engineer and a wonderful person.
>
> Some of us went sailing as promised, there was mescal to drink with dinner
> (thanks to Victor), and the beauty of the Aprovecho farm and forest and
the
> warm friendship that we felt was palliative and inspiring. I love these
> gatherings mostly because learning is so fulfilling to me personally.
Being
> in a group of motivated people who are very well educated and gifted
always
> lifts my spirits and also moves the understanding of how to make better,
> inexpensive stoves for the poor one or two steps further along.
>
> Pictures of the event and Dale's paper follow:
>
> All Best,
>
> Dean

From ronallarson at qwest.net Wed Sep 8 18:40:44 2004
From: ronallarson at qwest.net (Ron Larson)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:40:44 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Fw: e-town award
Message-ID: <002d01c495fe$4faa2900$d96d0443@ronallarson>

Stovers: I just received a message from a person in Ft. Collins working with Stuart Conway for "Trees, Water and People" which said:

Hello Friend,

Here at Trees Water and People we are pleased to announce that the
original e-town show that recognized our own Stuart Conway with an
e-achievement award is being rebroadcast September 8-14th. Stuart earned this honor through all the work Trees Water & People has done under his leadership in Central America. This work included reforestation and building fuel efficient stoves in Central American countries. To date, TWP has planted 1 million trees and built 8,000 stoves throughout the region.

Be sure to check out the re-broadcasting of this show. You can find the times it will be aired on your local radio station at www.etown.org. When you go to this webpage, on the left go to 'listen' and then click on broadcast schedule and that will lead to choosing your radio station and its schedule.

Thanks, and enjoy the show!

Elizabeth Mozer
Trees Water & People

RWL continuing - Stuart has been a long term member of "stoves" with most of his stoves work in Central America. I hope others who are in the US will give a try at watching this by checking in at www.etown.org.

Stuart - congratulations on this fine award.

Ron

From psanders at ilstu.edu Mon Sep 13 21:34:19 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:34:19 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [Gasification] Does Bamboo gas?
In-Reply-To: <004201c499f1$62b9fa60$4781bdcb@Consultant>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20040913210253.02292c00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Gasification list members and Stoves list members

Yes, bamboo is good biomass as fuel. It can be burned in the small,
residential pyrolysis gasifiers that Tom Reed and I are developing. I have
no information about if bamboo would serve as fuel in the larger gasifiers
(for producer gas for running IC engines). Bamboo would also cut nicely to
be used in the Rocket-stove type of small stoves. But neither are
currently with much presence in India. But they could burn bamboo in
regular fires.

Makes sense to do a massive cutting of the bamboo that is ready to
flower. It would dry and become fuel. And even if only left to rot, it
would avoid the plague of the rats and the famine that could follow.

Considering that the bamboo would sprout again from the roots, cutting it
would not constitute "deforestation". And just leaving it where it was
growing would not amount to a loss of agricultural land (since there is no
agriculture in the same square meter where the bamboo is growing.)

But it is a LOT of work to cut a square kilometer of mature
bamboo!!! Obviously, the fuel value is not sufficient to finance massive
bamboo cutting in the "regular" years. But is "famine and plague
prevention" sufficient motivation to cut the bamboo before it flowers?

Anyone have more information about this "flowering bamboo" problem? It
probably occurs somewhere in the world almost every year. Does it really
cause such negative results?

(I am sending this message to the "Stoves" list serve so a discussion there
can also occur.) (You will not receive the discussion on the Stoves list
serve unless you are subscribed to that list.) (Sorry for the duplicate
messages that some of us will be receiving, but I suspect there will be
more of "general discussion" on the Stoves list serve and only the
"specific to gasification of bamboo discussion" on the Gasification list
serve.)

Paul

At 07:25 AM 9/14/04 +0700, Robert Deutsch wrote:
>Dear Gas listers,
>
>Just heard on the BBC that large expanses of Bamboo in northern India will
>be doing their 50 year flowering cycle soon. They expect the flowers to
>produce seeds that will fall to the ground and provide food to rats
>causing an explosion of rodent population. The idea was put forward that
>the bamboo should be cut before that happens to avoid the problem. Of
>course there are many uses for good quality bamboo, but would the rejects
>make good fodder for gasification? Has anyone done any work with
>bamboo? How does it cut, dry, handle, gasify, what's in the ash???
>
>Just wondering in Phnom Penh,
>
>Robert-
>_______________________________________________
>Gasification mailing list
>Gasification at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification

Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072

From rstanley at legacyfound.org Tue Sep 14 00:26:37 2004
From: rstanley at legacyfound.org (Richard Stanley)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 07:26:37 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Re: [Gasification] Does Bamboo gas?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040913210253.02292c00@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <4.3.1.2.20040913210253.02292c00@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4146810D.7020607@legacyfound.org>

Paul Robert, et al.,
For what its worth, I recently went ot a friends house in Ashland oregon
where they had installed a bamboo floor. It had been split, cut into
thin strips with an X section of perhaps 20mm x 40mm, laminated and
planed. Felt and looked like a normal good quality light hardwood floor
but the unique grain gave it a very unique and pleasant appearance.
Alternatively you can make Puluwan Karanda water pumps out of the stuff
as we did back in Sri lanka in the early days of Samma Hamudave (Peace
corps). Wouldn't really recommend the latter because as it rots with
sustained exposure to water it attracts all kinds of things you really
do not want to drink)
You going to the Sv conference in boulder by the way ? If so, look fwd
to seeing you all there with Kobus Venters new and improved gassifier
stove !
Richard Stanley

Paul S. Anderson wrote:

> Gasification list members and Stoves list members
>
> Yes, bamboo is good biomass as fuel. It can be burned in the small,
> residential pyrolysis gasifiers that Tom Reed and I are developing. I
> have no information about if bamboo would serve as fuel in the larger
> gasifiers (for producer gas for running IC engines). Bamboo would
> also cut nicely to be used in the Rocket-stove type of small stoves.
> But neither are currently with much presence in India. But they could
> burn bamboo in regular fires.
>
> Makes sense to do a massive cutting of the bamboo that is ready to
> flower. It would dry and become fuel. And even if only left to rot,
> it would avoid the plague of the rats and the famine that could follow.
>
> Considering that the bamboo would sprout again from the roots, cutting
> it would not constitute "deforestation". And just leaving it where
> it was growing would not amount to a loss of agricultural land (since
> there is no agriculture in the same square meter where the bamboo is
> growing.)
>
> But it is a LOT of work to cut a square kilometer of mature bamboo!!!
> Obviously, the fuel value is not sufficient to finance massive bamboo
> cutting in the "regular" years. But is "famine and plague prevention"
> sufficient motivation to cut the bamboo before it flowers?
>
> Anyone have more information about this "flowering bamboo" problem?
> It probably occurs somewhere in the world almost every year. Does it
> really cause such negative results?
>
> (I am sending this message to the "Stoves" list serve so a discussion
> there can also occur.) (You will not receive the discussion on the
> Stoves list serve unless you are subscribed to that list.) (Sorry for
> the duplicate messages that some of us will be receiving, but I
> suspect there will be more of "general discussion" on the Stoves list
> serve and only the "specific to gasification of bamboo discussion" on
> the Gasification list serve.)
>
> Paul
>
> At 07:25 AM 9/14/04 +0700, Robert Deutsch wrote:
>
>> Dear Gas listers,
>>
>> Just heard on the BBC that large expanses of Bamboo in northern India
>> will be doing their 50 year flowering cycle soon. They expect the
>> flowers to produce seeds that will fall to the ground and provide
>> food to rats causing an explosion of rodent population. The idea was
>> put forward that the bamboo should be cut before that happens to
>> avoid the problem. Of course there are many uses for good quality
>> bamboo, but would the rejects make good fodder for gasification? Has
>> anyone done any work with bamboo? How does it cut, dry, handle,
>> gasify, what's in the ash???
>>
>> Just wondering in Phnom Penh,
>>
>> Robert-
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
>> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification
>
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> <http://www.ilstu.edu/%7Epsanders>
> NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
> For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Gasification mailing list
>Gasification at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification
>
>

From dstill at epud.net Tue Sep 14 21:35:52 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:35:52 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] RE: Stove idea
In-Reply-To: <8C68E7C50E1E754587AC81137C27C3C6073F82@colmx01.sealimited.local>
Message-ID: <20040915023552.A2EC6135@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Dale,

I do not notice drastically different thermal efficiencies at high and low
power in the 40 Water Boiling Tests we just did, generally a bit lower for
low power but not by too much.. I agree that too much primary air decreases
temperatures at the pot. A bad burn delivers about 700C to the pot, an
excellent burn delivers 950C to the pot...Does this agree with your
findings?

Perhaps the lower firepower in simmering mode is better matched to the size
of the family pot. This makes up for the lower temperatures? And does the
lower firepower reduce draft, reducing excess air anyway? My guess would be
that matching firepower to the size of the pot is the most important factor
in fuel efficiency...

I think that HTE is more powerful than CE. Is Baldwin right in predicting
thermal efficiency to a 30cm pot from firepower?

Best,

Dean

-----Original Message-----
From: Andreatta, Dale A. [mailto:dandreatta at sealimited.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:45 AM
To: 'Dean Still'
Subject: Stove idea

What do you think of this idea for a stove? Is it too much trouble for the
user?

One of the conclusions that I'm coming to in my ongoing efficiency testing
is that controlling the excess air is very important to getting good
efficiency, probably the most important thing of all. If you have too
little excess air you get sooty combustion, which is obviously bad, but if
you have too much you get cool gases that don't transfer heat well, thus,
low efficiency.

Have a stove with a simple mechanism for closing off the air flow, probably
at the top of the stove. When the stove was in high power mode there would
be a lot of wood burning and the air flow would be opened up to keep things
clean. Since a lot of wood is burning, the gases would be hot and you'd get
pretty good efficiency. When the user goes to low power mode, they would
take wood out or not feed in so much wood, then when the fire was low make
some simple adjustment to the stove (perhaps move a lever) which would close
off the air flow and keep the gases hot to give good efficiency.

I suppose there would be labels or pictures on the lever, one indicating
high power and/or cleaner combustion, and the other label indicating low
power/less wood. Would it be too much to expect the user to understand that
she could control the soot vs. efficiency balance by moving a lever? I
expect that the lever would only be moved once or twice during each usage,
if the user were available to monitor the stove more frequently, this would
be even better.

Dale

From bmjenkins at ucdavis.edu Wed Sep 15 17:04:39 2004
From: bmjenkins at ucdavis.edu (Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:04:39 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Post-doc position/UC Davis
Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.2.20040915150425.03591d40@purple.ucdavis.edu>

University of California, Davis

Position Announcement for Post Graduate Researcher /Research Specialist

Position Description: Biological and Agricultural Engineering Department
is recruiting an Bioenvironmental Engineer with a title of Post Doctoral
Researcher or Research Specialist for a biogas energy and waste
utilization project . The researcher will be conducting research on the
development of an innovative anaerobic digestion system that converts urban
green and food wastes into biogas energy, soil amendment and valuable fiber
products. The researcher will be expected to work with a dynamic
university-industry collaboration project team in performing lab, pilot,
and commercial scale experiments. The researcher will be heavily involved
in the design and operation of pilot and commercial scale anaerobic
digestion systems.

Qualification Requirement: The candidate is required to have a Ph.D. degree
or a M.S. degree with minimum two years of R&D experiences in Agricultural
or Biological Engineering, Environmental Engineering, or related areas. The
candidate should have strong education and research training in
bioconversion engineering processes and renewable energy systems and have a
good understanding of and direct working experiences with the design and
operation of bioreactors and instrumentation needed to control and monitor
bioreactors. Direct research experiences with anaerobic digestion and
composting processes are desired. Prior training and work experiences with
process-engineering and/or mechanical engineering will be
preferred. Strong verbal and written communication skills in English are
required.

Position Duration: 2-3 years.

Application: The position needs to be filled by October 1, 2004. Please
send a written letter that outlines the research interest and education and
training experiences along with resume, transcripts, and a list of three
references via post mail or email to

Dr. Ruihong Zhang, Professor
Biological and Agricultural Engineering Department
University of California, Davis
One Shields Avenue
Davis, CA 95616
Phone: (530)754-9530
Email: rhzhang at ucdavis.edu

From dstill at epud.net Wed Sep 15 20:23:26 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:23:26 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] FW: Stove idea
Message-ID: <20040916012325.0E7DF22@telchar.epud.net>

Dear Dale,

Fascinating discussion! The local sheet metal shop made an adjustable pot
skirt for Peter to take to Africa. It had insulated handles and I can
imagine that it might be used by cooks if the adjustment was worth the
effort. I find that most stoves use about half the fuel when simmering with
no lid. If we add a lid then so little fuel is required that if the right
amount is used the fire easily can go out! What does Prassad say: a good
stove needs 8 to1 turndown? Maybe 400 Watts to simmer? Unfortunately, such a
small fire requires constant maintenance, and using very small sticks,
constantly replenished. So, maybe we run into a practical problem when we
tune the stove to be very efficient at low power?

Best,

Dean

-----Original Message-----
From: Andreatta, Dale A. [mailto:dandreatta at sealimited.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 8:53 AM
To: 'Dean Still'
Subject: RE: Stove idea

I think that HTE is more powerful than CE. Is Baldwin right in predicting
thermal efficiency to a 30cm pot from firepower?

Regarding the temperatures, I'm come to the believe that the temperatures
are so non-uniform above the fire that it is not fruitful to measure them.
I've been measuring temperatures a little higher than you gave above at the
centerline of the pot, though much lower temperatures along the edge of the
riser. One thing I've discovered is that it's possible to calculate an
average fire temperature, or average riser temperature. The process by
which I do this is somewhat complicated, so I'll save it for the document
I'll write in a few months, but the average riser temperature is way lower
than the numbers you've given above or the numbers I've measured at the
centerline of the pot.

It does seem that efficiency is not strongly affected by power. Just
thinking out loud, this fits. I've found that heat transfer (in Watts) is
approximately proportional to the "average riser temperature", and average
riser temperature is about proportional to firepower, which would make
efficiency roughly constant. I think that reduced firepower does not
decrease draft very much, unless you intentionally choke off the flow.
Again, it's a long explanation why. I guess the goal I'm shooting for is
greatly increased efficiency at low power, and about the same efficiency at
high power.

I've done all my tests with one size pot, so I'll have to think about the
effect of the size of the pot. Obviously, bigger is better, but how much?

The heat transfer efficiency would be more important than combustion
efficiency. Regarding the Baldwin question, I'll have to look at his book
again.

I'm still hoping you can answer the question about would the proposed stove
be practical from a user's perspective?

Dale

-----Original Message-----
From: Andreatta, Dale A. [mailto:dandreatta at sealimited.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:45 AM
To: 'Dean Still'
Subject: Stove idea

What do you think of this idea for a stove? Is it too much trouble for the
user?

Dale

From kimoanh at ait.ac.th Wed Sep 15 20:46:32 2004
From: kimoanh at ait.ac.th (kimoanh)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:46:32 +0700
Subject: [Stoves] Request for information
Message-ID: <4148F078.4010902@ait.ac.th>

Dear Stovers,

If you have information related to phenolic antioxidants in particles
emitted from wood combustion and their interaction with PAH please
kindly share. A list of references or full electronic articles would be
most useful.

Thank you so much for your help.

Kim Oanh

From dstill at epud.net Wed Sep 15 21:59:12 2004
From: dstill at epud.net (Dean Still)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:59:12 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] RE: [ethos] FW: Stove idea
In-Reply-To: <20040916012325.0E7DF22@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <20040916025912.2C2B776@telchar.epud.net>

Hi, Dale:

The average WBT score using a 12" pot and 5 litres of water was around 35%.
The average WBT score using a 9" diameter pot and 5 litres of water is
closer to 26%.

All Best,

Dean

From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 16 00:03:25 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:03:25 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20040915235011.025ff2d0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

What is the typical moisture level (%) in a freshly cut living but old
tree? Just in general, and not specific to any type of tree. Or give a
common "range" of percentages if that answer makes more sense.

I suspect someone knows the answer already without needing to go make
measurements.

Concerning "dry" wood, we have heard of "Denver dry" (?) and "kiln dried"
and "sun dried chips". What percent of moisture do we expect in such wood?

Dean at Aprovecho has some great wood for use in the testing of the
stoves. Standard for all to use there. But not necessarily typical for
the kinds of woods we encounter in the rural villages, etc.

It is clear to me (from my experiments, and from camping trips) that
"green" wood can give many problems and make even the best of stoves look bad.

Paul

From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 16 00:21:56 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:21:56 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Going to SR conference
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20040916000329.025ff1b0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

The Sustainable Resources (SR) Conference is in Boulder on Wednesday
evening opening and keynote speakers on 29 Sept, and then the conference on
Thurs 30 Sept to Saturday 2 Oct, plus some pre and post conference
activities. I hope will have a chance to see each other.

Tom Reed and Paul Anderson will have a table (not a booth) in the exhibit
area. Stoves should feel free to "hang out" there (and maybe leave some
messages there for other Stovers even if the table is un-attended). But
there are probably some booths there also (Trees, Water and People??? and
anyone else???)

In case anyone is interested, I am presenting about gasifier stoves (and
other innovations related to residential energy) in a session at 1:30 PM on
Thursday 30 September.

Conference info is at
http://www.sustainableresources.org/sr2004/

But I have not been able to locate the actual "program" that says which
speakers are in which session together. (if available on the Internet,
could Steve or someone else at SR send us that address, please.)

Paul
Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072

From tombreed at comcast.net Thu Sep 16 07:16:16 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (TBReed)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:16:16 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
References: <4.3.1.2.20040915235011.025ff2d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <003f01c49be6$f7676bb0$3201a8c0@OFFICE>

Dear Paul and Aul:

GOOD QUESTION. I try to think in good generalizations so here are a few.
(Tom Miles is more expert than I on this and I hope he'll chip in too.)

Green wood (still living) is typically 50% moisture (wet basis) or 100%
moisture (dry basis). It can be "bone dried" in the oven at 220 F and you
can calculate the moisture content by weighing before and after.

"Denver dry" is approximately 10%. I don't know what "Seattle dry" would
be, but probably 20%.

Wood cellular matter has a true density of 1.5 g/cm3. Since wood has a
beautiful cellular structure, it can hold more than it's weight of water,
and wet logs sink and are now being mined.

Yes. Moisture content is all important in using wood as a fuel.

Gotta run...

TOM REED BEF

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
To: "The Stoves Discussion List" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 11:03 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood

> Stovers,
>
> What is the typical moisture level (%) in a freshly cut living but old
> tree? Just in general, and not specific to any type of tree. Or give a
> common "range" of percentages if that answer makes more sense.
>
> I suspect someone knows the answer already without needing to go make
> measurements.
>
> Concerning "dry" wood, we have heard of "Denver dry" (?) and "kiln dried"
> and "sun dried chips". What percent of moisture do we expect in such
wood?
>
> Dean at Aprovecho has some great wood for use in the testing of the
> stoves. Standard for all to use there. But not necessarily typical for
> the kinds of woods we encounter in the rural villages, etc.
>
> It is clear to me (from my experiments, and from camping trips) that
> "green" wood can give many problems and make even the best of stoves look
bad.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
> For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From crispin at newdawn.sz Thu Sep 16 06:48:06 2004
From: crispin at newdawn.sz (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:48:06 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Vesto receives the DISA Chairman's Award 2004
Message-ID: <004e01c49be8$e53fd420$0100a8c0@md>

Dear Stovers

The Vesto Stove, as announced earlier, has been given a design award by the
Design Institute of South Africa (DISA) in the 'Home' category. There are 4
winners each year in 4 different categories.

In addition there is a Chairman's Award given to one outstanding example of
design excellence. To our great delight this 2004 top award was given to
the Vesto Stove. The judges commented favourably on the Vesto having
included a number of innovations implemented simultaneously to create a new
type of stove.

The DISA is part of the South African Bureau of Standards (SABS) and has
been giving awards since 1969. This year was the first of a new format and
includes the prestigious Chairman's Award. A floating trophy is inscribed
with the year and winning product name.

More information about the award (or the stove) can be obtained from Rina
King (co-recipient of the award) at rking at infodoor.co.za and soon from our
Vesto website at www.vesto.co.za

Sincerely
Crispin

From enecon_jfb at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 07:39:41 2004
From: enecon_jfb at hotmail.com (Jim Bland)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:39:41 +1000
Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
References: <4.3.1.2.20040915235011.025ff2d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY16-DAV1WGMhLPBLY000a7cc7@hotmail.com>

Paul,

We work on 35-60% moisture on a wet weight basis. The upper figure
represents say freshly-cut mature pine (Pinus radiata) say 30-60 years old.
The lower figure would be for a mature eucalypt (hardwood), maybe chipped a
few days ago. If I have no other information, I assume 43%.

We refer to "air-dried" which would be about 20-25% moisture. This can take
up to 2 years to achieve, depending on the size of wood particle. Wood
chips would reach this level much quicker.

"Kiln dried" is about 10%.

Regards,

Jim

Enecon Pty Ltd
Level 2, 35 Whitehorse Rd., Deepdene VIC 3103, Australia
PO Box 555, Deepdene DC VIC 3103
Tel: + 61-3-9817 6255
Fax: +61-3-9817 6455
www.enecon.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
To: "The Stoves Discussion List" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:03 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood

From rokoblak at email.si Thu Sep 16 08:31:13 2004
From: rokoblak at email.si (rok oblak)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:31:13 +0200
Subject: [Stoves] Mdula-winning stove
In-Reply-To: <20040915023552.A2EC6135@telchar.epud.net>
References: <20040915023552.A2EC6135@telchar.epud.net>
Message-ID: <20040916133113.6C0248B7DD@www.email.si>

BIO19
Biennial of Industrial Design
Ljubljana, Slovenia

I want to inform you, that the WWF Finland and UIAH (University of arts and design Helsinki) project:

Mdula - biomass briquette stove intervention in Malawi

has won the Gold Medal Award on BIO19, represented by international jury of:
Aldo Cibic (ITA), Robin Edman, ICSID (SWE), Czeslawa Frejlich (POL), Stephen Hitchins, BEDA (GB), Ruth
Klotzel, ICOGRADA (BRA).

The project was set in Helsinki in January 2003 and realised in Malawi (Chembe Village) in January 2004
and finished in Ljubljana in September 2004.

The concept is based on the local people material knowlege, upgraded with technological aspects and
design skills of us, students, working together in the same environment to improve the situation in the
LMNP (Lake Malawi National Park). It is a two-year multidisciplinary based international students effort,
how to gain as much improvements possible with the least intervention done in the environment, social
and cultural lifestyle of the local people. The result is a concept of production of a no-cost biomass
briquette stove Mdula (modular Mbaula), made with a simple wooden mold and clay as a construction
material. The final model is based on 8 study models, many field testings and interaction with the local
peole. It uses biomass briquettes combined with woodfuel to make the stove as effective as possible
with the same manipulating procedure as burning and using three-stone cooking formation. The
project has intention only to gain a long-term result.

As the jury showed a great interest in my stove and the concept of distribution, I would like to
introduce the project to you, members of the HEDON forum, whose work i ve been introduced to as me
being a member also.

Maybe you can help me with additional aspects in re-evaluating the project realisation, since i don t
have basically no experiences with it.

I have a plan to set an internet page, but until then,
i only can send pictures to the one who is interested, personally, not on the FORUM itself.

Have a nice day and enjoy working!

Rok Oblak
Industrial Design Department
Academy of Arts and Design
Ljubljana, Slovenia

____________________
http://www.email.si/

From rmiranda at inet.com.br Thu Sep 16 08:54:20 2004
From: rmiranda at inet.com.br (rmiranda at inet.com.br)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:54:20 -0300 (BRT)
Subject: [Stoves] Vesto receives the DISA Chairman's Award 2004
In-Reply-To: <004e01c49be8$e53fd420$0100a8c0@md>
References: <004e01c49be8$e53fd420$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <46571.201.1.196.3.1095342860.squirrel@201.1.196.3>

Dear Crispin and Rina:

Congratulations on the VESTO award. It is very exciting to see that the
new generation of stoves are making progress and receiving awards around
the world. It really motivates us to push forward with our stove
modernization programs....

We here with the Ecostove in Brazil are also about to receive an award for
being an ecological friendly home appliance. I will let you know once that
is confirmed....

Best wishes

Rogerio Miranda

> Dear Stovers
>
> The Vesto Stove, as announced earlier, has been given a design award by
> the
> Design Institute of South Africa (DISA) in the 'Home' category. There are
> 4
> winners each year in 4 different categories.
>
> In addition there is a Chairman's Award given to one outstanding example
> of
> design excellence. To our great delight this 2004 top award was given to
> the Vesto Stove. The judges commented favourably on the Vesto having
> included a number of innovations implemented simultaneously to create a
> new
> type of stove.
>
> The DISA is part of the South African Bureau of Standards (SABS) and has
> been giving awards since 1969. This year was the first of a new format
> and
> includes the prestigious Chairman's Award. A floating trophy is inscribed
> with the year and winning product name.
>
> More information about the award (or the stove) can be obtained from Rina
> King (co-recipient of the award) at rking at infodoor.co.za and soon from our
> Vesto website at www.vesto.co.za
>
> Sincerely
> Crispin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From steve at sustainablevillage.com Thu Sep 16 09:02:07 2004
From: steve at sustainablevillage.com (Steve Troy)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:02:07 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Re: Going to SR conference
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040916000329.025ff1b0@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <4.3.1.2.20040916000329.025ff1b0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <p06020490bd6f4a08677e@[10.0.1.2]>

Dear Stovers,
You can see details of the various sessions at
http://www.sustainableresources.org/sr2004/program.html
We also just made it so you can register for just individual sessions
- just sign up for the workshop Paul's in for only $25!
We'll also have lots of great gathering places including tables
outside, in the UMC Packer Grill, a yurt and tipi outside by the UMC
fountain area!
Richard Stanley will be here again and the expo is free and open for
4 days, Sept. 30 - Oct. 3rd.
Hope to see you all soon!
Steve Troy

>The Sustainable Resources (SR) Conference is in Boulder on Wednesday
>evening opening and keynote speakers on 29 Sept, and then the conference on
>Thurs 30 Sept to Saturday 2 Oct, plus some pre and post conference
>activities. I hope will have a chance to see each other.
>
>Tom Reed and Paul Anderson will have a table (not a booth) in the exhibit
>area. Stoves should feel free to "hang out" there (and maybe leave some
>messages there for other Stovers even if the table is un-attended). But
>there are probably some booths there also (Trees, Water and People??? and
>anyone else???)
>
>In case anyone is interested, I am presenting about gasifier stoves (and
>other innovations related to residential energy) in a session at 1:30 PM on
>Thursday 30 September.
>
>Conference info is at
>http://www.sustainableresources.org/sr2004/
>
>But I have not been able to locate the actual "program" that says which
>speakers are in which session together. (if available on the Internet,
>could Steve or someone else at SR send us that address, please.)
>
>Paul
>Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
>Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
>Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
>E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
>NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
>For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
></x-flowed>

--

===============================================================
Sustainable Resources 717 Poplar Ave.
Boulder, CO 80304
email: steve at sustainableresources.org web site:
http://www.sustainableresources.org
voice 303-998-1323 ext. 100, 888-317-1600 fax 303-449-1348

From solar1 at zuper.net Thu Sep 16 09:35:12 2004
From: solar1 at zuper.net (Fundacion Centro de Desarrollo en Energia Solar)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:35:12 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] Vesto receives the DISA Chairman's Award 2004
In-Reply-To: <004e01c49be8$e53fd420$0100a8c0@md>
References: <004e01c49be8$e53fd420$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <4149A4A0.8070600@zuper.net>

Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:

>In addition there is a Chairman's Award given to one outstanding example of
>design excellence. To our great delight this 2004 top award was given to
>the Vesto Stove. The judges commented favourably on the Vesto having
>included a number of innovations implemented simultaneously to create a new
>type of stove.
>
>
>
>
Mil felicidades, and congratulations on this well deserved recognition
of your team's hard work, ingenuity, persistence, innovative attitudes
and a good understanding of the parameters involved in stove use,
making, and consumer needs.

I also enjoyed seeing a south African web page selling efficient stoves,
solar cookers and retained heat cookers. The Vesto stove was the
efficient stove promoted (an i puffed up just knowing who is behind it)
[http://www.rescooking.co.za/] It is encouraging to us here to finally
see progress being made around the world and in seeing the 3 most
appropriate and complimentary cooking devices marketed together. For
this leadership I also pat you and Rina King on the back. Kudos and bien
hecho.

un abrazo
David

From cree at dowco.com Thu Sep 16 11:23:24 2004
From: cree at dowco.com (John Olsen)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:23:24 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Kyoto Accord - Heatlog gets recognition on Canada Trade
site
Message-ID: <BLEFLNMHNDFEMMIJPGFIKEFOCPAA.cree@dowco.com>

Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
web site
http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/tna-nac/stories-en.asp#heat

John Olsen

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.751 / Virus Database: 502 - Release Date: 9/2/2004

From solar1 at zuper.net Thu Sep 16 13:34:40 2004
From: solar1 at zuper.net (Fundacion Centro de Desarrollo en Energia Solar)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:34:40 -0400
Subject: [Stoves] Kyoto Accord - Heatlog gets recognition on Canada Trade
site
In-Reply-To: <BLEFLNMHNDFEMMIJPGFIKEFOCPAA.cree@dowco.com>
References: <BLEFLNMHNDFEMMIJPGFIKEFOCPAA.cree@dowco.com>
Message-ID: <4149DCC0.9080908@zuper.net>

John Olsen wrote:

>Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
>web site
>http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/tna-nac/stories-en.asp#heat
>
>John Olsen
>
>
>
>
Real nice article John! Glad to see you getting so much coverage. I
don't know which I liked best, the article or the picture;-)
Hope those international leads pan out. Are all of theose places listed
as using the extrusion process through you? Are you also native north
american?

Great achievement John
abrazos y saludos a loss Cree.
David Whitfield

From tombreed at comcast.net Thu Sep 16 06:46:13 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (TBReed)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 05:46:13 -0600
Subject: [Stoves] Replacing oil (and the terrorism it nurtures)
References: <2796F296.1D4777C8.00168ACC@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001601c49be2$c5d98e60$3201a8c0@OFFICE>

Dear All:

Concerning Tom Taylor's comment: > "The ridiculous part of anaerobic
digestion is that most of the original mass is still present which makes for
a difficult disposal problem because of the sheer volume of slop generated.
Better off going straight to gasification."

That's what makes biomass and waste so challenging, and we're working on it

~~~~~~~~~~
Chemistry seems so sensible to chemists and non-comprehensible to non
chemists, but it's nice to find a middle ground.

Everyone knows the name "carbohydrates" which is derived from the Unitary
Formula, C-H2O. This unitary formula is correct for sugars (C6H12O6 etc.),
and approximately for starch and cellulose, ((C6H10O5)n, polymers of
glucose), and even approximately biomass (Unitary formula C H1.4 O 0.6). It
is also the formula for formaldehyde, Trioxide and dimethylcarbonate
(C3H6O3).

Carbohydrates can break down by two routes...

CH2O ==> C + H2O, a slightly exothermic reaction to make charcoal and water.
(1)

CH2O ==> CO + H2 (synthesis gas, but a very endothermic reaction)
(2)

Complexity out of simplicity is Mother Nature's plan.

~~~~~~~~~~~
At the present cusp of the age of oil we are faced with finding replacements
in our energy use or returning to the caves. We need have known how to make
charcoal for >100,000 years. Now we need to learn to accomplish reaction 2
(by gasification etc.).

Comments?

TOM REED BEF

----- Original Message -----
From: <LINVENT at aol.com>
To: "Arnt Karlsen" <arnt at c2i.net>; <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:14 AM
Subject: [Gasification] anerobic digestion

>
> The ridiculous part of anerobic digestion is that most of the original
mass is still present which makes for a difficult disposal problem because
of the sheer volume of slop generated. Better off going straight to
gasification.
> --
> Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> 7100-F 2nd St. NW
> Albuquerque, New Mexico USA 87107
> Phone: 505-761-5633, fax: 505-341-0424 Web:thermogenics.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
> Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification
>

From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 16 16:25:15 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:25:15 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
In-Reply-To: <BAY16-DAV1WGMhLPBLY000a7cc7@hotmail.com>
References: <4.3.1.2.20040915235011.025ff2d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20040916161029.00d697c0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Thanks to Jim, Tom and David for their fast and very good answers. I knew
MC was important, but I did not realize the tremendous range of MC from
fresh cut wood to air-dried wood.

Given that the people who could eventually be using our stoves live in such
a wide variety of environments with fuels with different MC, it is logical
to expect that our stoves should be designed with at least some
consideration of the MC in the locally common fuels.

For example, Crispin has commented that the extremely dry wood used in the
Aprovecho testing can be a factor in why some stoves "run wild" whereas
they are much more "tame and appropriate" when using the local fuels for
which they were developed. I completely agree.

That makes our job of comparative testing more difficult. We still need to
do the tests, but the same stoves should be tested with fuel at 10% or less
and tested again with fuels of 20% to 25% (just percentages to illustrate
the topic, not a thought-out set of percentages).

Paul

At 10:39 PM 9/16/04 +1000, Jim Bland wrote:
>Paul,
>
>We work on 35-60% moisture on a wet weight basis. The upper figure
>represents say freshly-cut mature pine (Pinus radiata) say 30-60 years old.
>The lower figure would be for a mature eucalypt (hardwood), maybe chipped a
>few days ago. If I have no other information, I assume 43%.
>
>We refer to "air-dried" which would be about 20-25% moisture. This can take
>up to 2 years to achieve, depending on the size of wood particle. Wood
>chips would reach this level much quicker.
>
>"Kiln dried" is about 10%.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jim
>
>Enecon Pty Ltd
>Level 2, 35 Whitehorse Rd., Deepdene VIC 3103, Australia
>PO Box 555, Deepdene DC VIC 3103
>Tel: + 61-3-9817 6255
>Fax: +61-3-9817 6455
>www.enecon.com.au
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>To: "The Stoves Discussion List" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
>Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:03 PM
>Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
>
>
> > Stovers,
> >
> > What is the typical moisture level (%) in a freshly cut living but old
> > tree? Just in general, and not specific to any type of tree. Or give a
> > common "range" of percentages if that answer makes more sense.
> >
> > I suspect someone knows the answer already without needing to go make
> > measurements.
> >
> > Concerning "dry" wood, we have heard of "Denver dry" (?) and "kiln dried"
> > and "sun dried chips". What percent of moisture do we expect in such
>wood?
> >
> > Dean at Aprovecho has some great wood for use in the testing of the
> > stoves. Standard for all to use there. But not necessarily typical for
> > the kinds of woods we encounter in the rural villages, etc.
> >
> > It is clear to me (from my experiments, and from camping trips) that
> > "green" wood can give many problems and make even the best of stoves look
>bad.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> > NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
> > For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> > Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> >
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Sep 17 03:57:51 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:57:51 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] Re: wood stoves
In-Reply-To: <4148ced3.1fae.0@saber.net>
References: <4148ced3.1fae.0@saber.net>
Message-ID: <839lk09n3p6pstrpg8njoab5rn88hjpibb@4ax.com>

Stovers,

I had a query about plans for building a Justa stove, from Gabriel, I
referred him to the stoves resources site where there is a step by
step guide. I further mentioned the trend toward materials with less
thermal inertia.

Now Gabriel's response below, which can serve as an introduction
should he confirm his subscription to the list, makes me see parallels
with the recent discussions about heating and cooking in Jumla.

I also wonder about masonry stoves in this (non cooking part) context
as they offer a fast clean burn, little attention thereafter, and are
high thermal mass retained heat devices.

AJH

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:22:59 -07:00, gabriel at saber dot net wrote:

>Thanks for your quick response. I think I will make a more detailed
>request, which I would be happy to have go out to the group (and you can
>put me on the list!). I live in Ecuador, at about 3000 meters altitude,
>with often strong winds that always come from the east. Thus, even though
>we are on the equator, at night (sun sets fast here) it can get quite cold.
> Here most people cook and heat themselves with open biomass (wood) stoves.
> Having it be fairly open is important because roasting guinea pig on a
>stick is delicious. Heat is also necessary so that humans don?t get too
>cold.
>
>Having made further investigations into the "justa" stove and others, I?ve
>decided that they are generally intended for warmer locations where people
>eat lots of tortillas. I?ve given up on the roasting cuyes for the moment,
>thus my request: what can I make that will warm me up like one of those
>heavy iron canadian wood stoves? I am open to both conservative and
>creative solutions. Please note that I have no experience in stove
>building, though I have the basic construction skills necessary to do so.
>
>Thanks,
>Gabriel Many

From pverhaart at iprimus.com.au Fri Sep 17 05:19:30 2004
From: pverhaart at iprimus.com.au (Peter Verhaart)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:19:30 +1000
Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040915235011.025ff2d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040917201526.022acbf0@pop.iprimus.com.au>

Paul,

At 00:03 16/09/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Stovers,
>
>What is the typical moisture level (%) in a freshly cut living but old
>tree? Just in general, and not specific to any type of tree. Or give a
>common "range" of percentages if that answer makes more sense.

Over 100 on a dry mass basis.

>I suspect someone knows the answer already without needing to go make
>measurements.
>
>Concerning "dry" wood, we have heard of "Denver dry" (?) and "kiln dried"
>and "sun dried chips". What percent of moisture do we expect in such wood?

Depends on the average relative humidity for ' air dry' . Kiln dried should
have 0 moisture content. My dry wood has 10 - 12 % moisture content on a
dry mass basis.

Peter Verhaart

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Fri Sep 17 05:26:36 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:26:36 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20040916161029.00d697c0@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <4.3.1.2.20040915235011.025ff2d0@mail.ilstu.edu>
<BAY16-DAV1WGMhLPBLY000a7cc7@hotmail.com>
<4.3.1.2.20040916161029.00d697c0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <euelk0dgv2s76a3lvnfnu0bq2gvvg4hu2t@4ax.com>

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:25:15 -0500, Paul S. Anderson wrote:
of percentages).

>At 10:39 PM 9/16/04 +1000, Jim Bland wrote:
>>Paul,
>>
>>We work on 35-60% moisture on a wet weight basis. The upper figure
>>represents say freshly-cut mature pine (Pinus radiata) say 30-60 years old.
>>The lower figure would be for a mature eucalypt (hardwood), maybe chipped a
>>few days ago. If I have no other information, I assume 43%.

These are similar figures for the temperate climate and woods we have
in UK. We have ash as our driest "green" wood at 35% mc web to poplar
at 60% mc wwb, with softwoods (conifers) tending to be wetter than
hardwoods inside these ranges. Obviously the basic densities of these
woods vary considerably too, Such that oak, beech and chestnut barely
float when fresh felled, as Tom reed says over time these will
saturate if immersed and sink.

On top of this the calorific value of the wood varies with bark
content and species, the higher the lignin content the higher the
calorific value. So whilst they are more bulky when dry our softwoods
actually have a higher caloric value by weight when dry.
>>
>>We refer to "air-dried" which would be about 20-25% moisture.

I would say this was a good mc at which to start burning wood but my
idea of air dry is when the wood has achieved equilibrium with the
outside atmosphere, it varies hear with relative humidity, rising in
winter and falling in summer. This makes it not worthwhile drying
below ~20%mc wwb as the wood becomes, in effect, hygroscopic if stored
in the open, though covered from the elements.

>> This can take
>>up to 2 years to achieve, depending on the size of wood particle. Wood
>>chips would reach this level much quicker.

My experience is that Cordwood has a slow rate of drying such that the
more perishable species (birch, aesculus, poplar etc) will suffer
large losses of dry matter if stored without conversion. In fact the
oily barked birch is liable to rotting and self wetting from the water
of its decomposition products if stored badly.

>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>>To: "The Stoves Discussion List" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
>>Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:03 PM
>>Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood

>> >
>> > It is clear to me (from my experiments, and from camping trips) that
>> > "green" wood can give many problems and make even the best of stoves look
>>bad.

The effect on moisture in wood is interesting, the main considertion
is that it has a high latent heat, as it has to be dischrged from the
fire as steam a lot of energy has to be diverted from "useful" heat to
volatilise this water. In a typical wood of 50% mc wwb this will
account for about 14% of the available heat. This is not a big deal
but the side effects are probably worse. The free water in a piece of
wood essentially holds that part of the fire to 100C, as we look to
high temperature to effect a clean burn this quenches that part of the
fire, reducing the chances of burning the pics to completion. It also
leads to the need for increased excess air which in itself distributes
the available heat over a larger mass flow (and the water in the fuel
at 50% mc wwb increases fuel mass flow by 100%) and hence lowers
temperature. We look to high flue temperature to increase heat
transfer also.

At the industrial level there are certain advantages to using moist
wood but at the stoves level I see none. So I would advocate early
comminution after harvest, storage under cover and consumption at
below 25% mc wwb.

There are interesting phenomena with burning very dry wood, thermal
runaway, you alluded to Crispin's experience, being one. Another is
illustrated in the burning of a match, where wax increases the
volatiles for the diffu=se flame. The flaming reaction is fast and
hot, it chars the match because the volatiles being given off shield
it, the carbon stick then self extinguishes because it cannot support
burning, it has radiated away its heat too quickly.

A similar effect can be seen when burning very dry wood such that the
volatiles flare off and heat for pyrolysis readily travels through the
wood and chars it. Once the volatiles are gone the remaining char is
exposed to oxygen and burns away gently. Do the same with wetter wood
(maybe 30% mc wwb) and the endodermy cause by the enthalpy of water
(i.e. the water absorbs a lot of heat) slows down the rate of
pyrolysis, reduces the shielding effect of volatiles and the log burns
steadily backwards reducing to white ash as it goes.

Tom Reed reported a similar effect in the idd reed-larson stove, using
dry wood results in up to 25% yield of char, as the mc is increased
this char yield reduces to nothing, the enthalpy of the water
modifying the rate of movement of the pyrolysis front and turning it
into a complete combustion zone.

On a related note: is anyone else other than Paul playing with idd
charcoal residue stoves? I ask because I ran some experiments with
grass on mine, in response to a post by len Walde, with whom i seem to
have lost contact, this was primarily to have a low temperature burn
to minimise loss of ash or volatile minerals. I was surprised at the
resulting high ash content. I also had a rather anomalous problem with
maintaining a secondary flame. The offgas was plainly nowhere near as
"good" at flaring as my normal fuel of dry wood. I now put this down
to the lower mass density in the stove reducing pyrolysis
temperatures.

It was also interesting to smell ammonia burning in the char,
suggesting that protein like compounds had survived the pyrolysis and
remained in the char.

AJH

From psanders at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 16 16:44:59 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:44:59 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Replacing oil (and the terrorism it nurtures)
In-Reply-To: <001601c49be2$c5d98e60$3201a8c0@OFFICE>
References: <2796F296.1D4777C8.00168ACC@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20040916163456.00d6aed0@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 05:46 AM 9/16/04 -0600, TBReed wrote:

>Everyone knows the name "carbohydrates" which is derived from the Unitary
>Formula, C-H2O.

Tom, not everyone. But now I know.

Well, what about "hydro-carbons"? Is that the same as "carbohydrates".

My meager understanding is that with heat we drive off the hydrocarbons
(pyrolysis process) so that we can burn the hydrocarbons and remain with
the charcoal that can then be "combusted?" to CO2 and H20 OR made
into the CO and H2 that you mention below.

Somehow, your simplification went so wonderfully far that I go
confused. In fact, a substance that is CH2O (only and pure) is
unknown to me. Somewhere a lot of exothermic action seems to be missing
in what you wrote.

You asked for comments, so you got one. (please teach me gently!!!)

Paul

>This unitary formula is correct for sugars (C6H12O6 etc.),
>and approximately for starch and cellulose, ((C6H10O5)n, polymers of
>glucose), and even approximately biomass (Unitary formula C H1.4 O 0.6). It
>is also the formula for formaldehyde, Trioxide and dimethylcarbonate
>(C3H6O3).
>
>Carbohydrates can break down by two routes...
>
>CH2O ==> C + H2O, a slightly exothermic reaction to make charcoal and water.
>(1)
>
>CH2O ==> CO + H2 (synthesis gas, but a very endothermic reaction)
>(2)
>
>Complexity out of simplicity is Mother Nature's plan.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~
>At the present cusp of the age of oil we are faced with finding replacements
>in our energy use or returning to the caves. We need have known how to make
>charcoal for >100,000 years. Now we need to learn to accomplish reaction 2
>(by gasification etc.).
>
>Comments?
>
>TOM REED BEF
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <LINVENT at aol.com>
>To: "Arnt Karlsen" <arnt at c2i.net>; <gasification at listserv.repp.org>
>Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:14 AM
>Subject: [Gasification] anerobic digestion
>
>
> >
> > The ridiculous part of anerobic digestion is that most of the original
>mass is still present which makes for a difficult disposal problem because
>of the sheer volume of slop generated. Better off going straight to
>gasification.
> > --
> > Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> > President
> > Thermogenics Inc.
> > 7100-F 2nd St. NW
> > Albuquerque, New Mexico USA 87107
> > Phone: 505-761-5633, fax: 505-341-0424 Web:thermogenics.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gasification mailing list
> > Gasification at listserv.repp.org
> > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From tmiles at trmiles.com Fri Sep 17 09:38:14 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:38:14 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Please Post Just to the List
Message-ID: <002901c49cc3$fa531080$6701a8c0@Yellow>

When you post to a list please address your message just to the list and to no other lists or recipients.

If too many recipients are listed then the message gets sent to the moderator for approval. When that happens it gets delayed or it may get inadvertenly rejected.

Thanks for your help

Tom Miles
Bioenergy Lists Admin
tmiles at trmiles.com

From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Sep 17 13:54:36 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:54:36 -0500
Subject: [Gasification] Re: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
In-Reply-To: <s14ab393.003@dakghar.teri.res.in>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20040917135221.02130b10@mail.ilstu.edu>

V V,
Thanks for the great message. I was within 200 meters of your office
this past January. I went to the Improved Cook Stoves people and to the
Gasification office.

Next trip (??) I hope that we can meet. Meanwhile, can you please tell us
more about you and your work in India. And does your office deal at all
with the issue of bamboo as fuel and the flowering of the bamboo soon?

Paul

At 09:50 AM 9/17/04 +0530, V V N Kishore wrote:
>Taking cue from Tom Reed about generalities:
>One cannot probably use anything available in nature and use it directly
>in modern society. Everything needs processing and that includes wood. If
>more and more people start thinking about this, there would be better
>chances for success of biomass. Processing obviously involves some kind of
>organization. So there is need to make available, in a systemic way,
>processed (dried, cut to size etc) wood to as many users as possible,
>including campers. Tom, your camp stove will be a through-and-through
>winner in such a scenario.
>-Kishore.
>
>Dr V V N Kishore
>Senior Fellow
>Biomass Energy Technology Applications
>The Energy and Resources Institute
>Darbari Seth Block
>India Habitat Centre
>Lodhi Road
>New Delhi - 110 003
>
>
> >>> "TBReed" <tombreed at comcast.net> 09/16/04 05:46PM >>>
>Dear Paul and Aul:
>
>GOOD QUESTION. I try to think in good generalizations so here are a few.
>(Tom Miles is more expert than I on this and I hope he'll chip in too.)
>
>Green wood (still living) is typically 50% moisture (wet basis) or 100%
>moisture (dry basis). It can be "bone dried" in the oven at 220 F and you
>can calculate the moisture content by weighing before and after.
>
>"Denver dry" is approximately 10%. I don't know what "Seattle dry" would
>be, but probably 20%.
>
>Wood cellular matter has a true density of 1.5 g/cm3. Since wood has a
>beautiful cellular structure, it can hold more than it's weight of water,
>and wet logs sink and are now being mined.
>
>Yes. Moisture content is all important in using wood as a fuel.
>
>Gotta run...
>
>TOM REED BEF
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
>To: "The Stoves Discussion List" <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 11:03 PM
>Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
>
>
> > Stovers,
> >
> > What is the typical moisture level (%) in a freshly cut living but old
> > tree? Just in general, and not specific to any type of tree. Or give a
> > common "range" of percentages if that answer makes more sense.
> >
> > I suspect someone knows the answer already without needing to go make
> > measurements.
> >
> > Concerning "dry" wood, we have heard of "Denver dry" (?) and "kiln dried"
> > and "sun dried chips". What percent of moisture do we expect in such
>wood?
> >
> > Dean at Aprovecho has some great wood for use in the testing of the
> > stoves. Standard for all to use there. But not necessarily typical for
> > the kinds of woods we encounter in the rural villages, etc.
> >
> > It is clear to me (from my experiments, and from camping trips) that
> > "green" wood can give many problems and make even the best of stoves look
>bad.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
> > Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> > E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items:
> <http://www.ilstu.edu/~psanders>www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> > NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
> > For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stoves mailing list
> > Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> >
> <http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Gasification mailing list
>Gasification at listserv.repp.org
><http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification

From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Sep 17 14:26:38 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:26:38 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Please Post Just to the List
In-Reply-To: <002901c49cc3$fa531080$6701a8c0@Yellow>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20040917142150.022a5230@mail.ilstu.edu>

Tom,

Please give us a little more info and a little leeway. Commonly messages
go to both the Stoves and Gasification list serves, and all seem to go
through easily. Also, this message as a "Reply to all" is sent to the
Stoves list and to your personal address, because that is how it came to me.

So, without causing you any difficulties (because we DO appreciate your
efforts to make this system function well), could we assume that up to 4
total addressees could still be acceptable. We do not know how many
addresses are needed before the system directs the message to the
administrator. Please tell us more.

Paul

At 07:38 AM 9/17/04 -0700, Tom Miles wrote:
>When you post to a list please address your message just to the list and
>to no other lists or recipients.
>
>If too many recipients are listed then the message gets sent to the
>moderator for approval. When that happens it gets delayed or it may get
>inadvertenly rejected.
>
>Thanks for your help
>
>Tom Miles
>Bioenergy Lists Admin
>tmiles at trmiles.com
>_______________________________________________
>Stoves mailing list
>Stoves at listserv.repp.org
>http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From Carefreeland at aol.com Fri Sep 17 22:21:21 2004
From: Carefreeland at aol.com (Carefreeland at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:21:21 EDT
Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
Message-ID: <8c.15653ffc.2e7d03b1@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/17/04 6:27:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk writes:

DD Dan Dimiduk comments.

Snip >
> A similar effect can be seen when burning very dry wood such that the
> volatiles flare off and heat for pyrolysis readily travels through the
> wood and chars it. Once the volatiles are gone the remaining char is
> exposed to oxygen and burns away gently. Do the same with wetter wood
> (maybe 30% mc wwb) and the endodermy cause by the enthalpy of water
> (i.e. the water absorbs a lot of heat) slows down the rate of
> pyrolysis, reduces the shielding effect of volatiles and the log burns
> steadily backwards reducing to white ash as it goes.
>
DD While burning wet wood, is there not also some water -gas reaction taking
place here also? In the presents of sufficient temperature, I witness such a
degradation of heavy excess carbon in the firebox. I commonly burn a small
amount of styrene trash in a hot firebox by mixing in seasoned but wet woods.
The dry wood burning provides the reaction temp and the soaked logs provide
extra excited oxygen ions (steam) for the more complete combustion of the
lampblack soot normally produced. Any excess hydrogen produced keeps the
afterburner running smooth.

DD As far as comments on moisture in wood, there are several factors. One is
the weather conditions during growth and at harvest. Obviously, trees
surviving a drought have lower moisture content than trees living in a rainforest,
regardless of the species. I have burned fresh green hardwood during a drought
with some moderate success.
DD Conditions to factor during drying also include: air circulation including
wind exposure, solar exposure or indirect heating from the sun, exposure to
other heat sources such as warm buildings or warm ground/rock, and relative
humidity patterns. If wood is dried near a watersource, the increased
condensation at night can prolong drying indefinitely. Moisture can come up out of the
ground or from above. Moisture can puddle underneath big piles of wood.

Dan Dimiduk

From tmiles at trmiles.com Sat Sep 18 14:38:14 2004
From: tmiles at trmiles.com (Tom Miles)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:38:14 -0700
Subject: [Stoves] Please Post Just to the List
References: <4.3.1.2.20040917142150.022a5230@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <00a501c49dbd$c1705200$6501a8c0@OFFICE3>

Paul,

The latest message that needed to be moderated because of "too many
recipients" came from you which is why you were copied on the reply. :-)

Too often we carry the same thread on more than one list. There is a lot of
membership overlap between lists so posting to two lists at the same time
just creates noise.

We have set the list server to accept messages posted to 10 recipients. So,
post to the list and to nine of your intimate friends. If there are any more
we'll just trash the message.

Thanks

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul S. Anderson" <psanders at ilstu.edu>
To: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>; <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Please Post Just to the List

> Tom,
>
> Please give us a little more info and a little leeway. Commonly messages
> go to both the Stoves and Gasification list serves, and all seem to go
> through easily. Also, this message as a "Reply to all" is sent to the
> Stoves list and to your personal address, because that is how it came to
me.
>
> So, without causing you any difficulties (because we DO appreciate your
> efforts to make this system function well), could we assume that up to 4
> total addressees could still be acceptable. We do not know how many
> addresses are needed before the system directs the message to the
> administrator. Please tell us more.
>
> Paul
>
> At 07:38 AM 9/17/04 -0700, Tom Miles wrote:
> >When you post to a list please address your message just to the list and
> >to no other lists or recipients.
> >
> >If too many recipients are listed then the message gets sent to the
> >moderator for approval. When that happens it gets delayed or it may get
> >inadvertenly rejected.
> >
> >Thanks for your help
> >
> >Tom Miles
> >Bioenergy Lists Admin
> >tmiles at trmiles.com
> >_______________________________________________
> >Stoves mailing list
> >Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> >http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>
> Paul S. Anderson, Ph.D.
> Dept of Geography - Geology (Box 4400), Illinois State University
> Normal, IL 61790-4400 Voice: 309-438-7360; FAX: 309-438-5310
> E-mail: psanders at ilstu.edu - Internet items: www.ilstu.edu/~psanders
> NOTE: Retired from teaching. Active in Stoves development.
> For fastest contact, please call home phone: 309-452-7072
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves
>

From list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk Sat Sep 18 16:02:27 2004
From: list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk (list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:02:27 +0100
Subject: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
In-Reply-To: <8c.15653ffc.2e7d03b1@aol.com>
References: <8c.15653ffc.2e7d03b1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <la7pk0hjh7s5mpu147psiduovetkgtnimb@4ax.com>

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:21:21 EDT, Carefreeland at aol.com wrote:

>DD While burning wet wood, is there not also some water -gas reaction taking
>place here also? In the presents of sufficient temperature, I witness such a
>degradation of heavy excess carbon in the firebox.

You said it, it has to be in the "presence" of a temperature above
~800C, it is highly endothermic and locally will have the ability to
drive the temperature rapidly down, I think typically in the water gas
reaction the water part is supplied as high temperature steam to help
it on its way. As I said I suspect moisture can play its part in
cutting firebed temperature and reducing char on a big furnace with no
heat losses below the secondary combustion burn area but In a small
stove/open fire there are plenty enough heat losses not to want to add
this one.

> I commonly burn a small
>amount of styrene trash in a hot firebox by mixing in seasoned but wet woods.
>The dry wood burning provides the reaction temp and the soaked logs provide
>extra excited oxygen ions (steam) for the more complete combustion of the
>lampblack soot normally produced. Any excess hydrogen produced keeps the
>afterburner running smooth.

For starters I think styrene is probably hard to burn well, I think
its structure is that of an ethylene molecule tacked onto a benzene
ring, so burned in the open the sooty pics are likely to be
carcinogens.

I have witnessed that burning tyre rubber in with high moisture
content wood chips can cut the sooty smoke from burning tyre rubber
alone. I had wondered if the effect was that of the endothermy of the
enthalpy of vaporisation of the water was cutting the temperature of
the primary combustion zone and so the rubber was pyrolysing into
simple compounds below the ~700C at which partial combustion would
crack the rubber into difficult to burn sooty compounds. The combined
high cv of pyrolysis offgas from the simple wood compounds and this
rubber offgas then being high enough to ensure a very high temperature
in the secondary region, I have observed temperatures sufficient to
tax the limits of my thermocouple.
>
>humidity patterns. If wood is dried near a watersource, the increased
>condensation at night can prolong drying indefinitely.

Yes I can see a condition where the daily evaporation might be less
than the dew deposited over night, ideal for lichen and mosses but not
for drying. I'll bet not many would want to live in such conditions,
the cotton would turn green on your back ;-).

AJH

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sun Sep 19 04:10:34 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:40:34 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] Vesto receives the DISA Chairman's Award 2004
References: <004e01c49be8$e53fd420$0100a8c0@md>
Message-ID: <000301c49e2c$35f1b880$105341db@adkarve>

Congratulations, Crispin. Well done.
Yours
Priya and A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <crispin at newdawn.sz>
To: Stoves List <STOVES at LISTSERV.REPP.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:18 PM
Subject: [Stoves] Vesto receives the DISA Chairman's Award 2004

> Dear Stovers
>
> The Vesto Stove, as announced earlier, has been given a design award by
the
> Design Institute of South Africa (DISA) in the 'Home' category. There are
4
> winners each year in 4 different categories.
>
> In addition there is a Chairman's Award given to one outstanding example
of
> design excellence. To our great delight this 2004 top award was given to
> the Vesto Stove. The judges commented favourably on the Vesto having
> included a number of innovations implemented simultaneously to create a
new
> type of stove.
>
> The DISA is part of the South African Bureau of Standards (SABS) and has
> been giving awards since 1969. This year was the first of a new format
and
> includes the prestigious Chairman's Award. A floating trophy is inscribed
> with the year and winning product name.
>
> More information about the award (or the stove) can be obtained from Rina
> King (co-recipient of the award) at rking at infodoor.co.za and soon from our
> Vesto website at www.vesto.co.za
>
> Sincerely
> Crispin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Stoves mailing list
> Stoves at listserv.repp.org
> http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves

From ycp at tm.net.my Tue Sep 21 21:51:26 2004
From: ycp at tm.net.my (ycp)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:51:26 +0800
Subject: [Stoves] Herrshoff roaster
Message-ID: <001801c4a04f$0e919920$75d8bbd2@ycp>

Dear members,

We are sourcing for Herrshoff furnance ( Multi-hearths roaster) for the
purpose of carbonizing oil palm shell with capability of producing 40
ton/day and fixed carbon of >75%. Appreciate if any one of you can direct
us to any supplier of the continous carbonizer.

Thank you,

YokeLoong Chai

ycp at tm.net.my

From tombreed at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 10:20:19 2004
From: tombreed at comcast.net (TBReed)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:20:19 -0600
Subject: [Gasification] Re: [Stoves] Moisture in wood
References: <001501c49e7c$e190c0f0$f21a5118@Malcolm>
Message-ID: <00e801c4a180$d63db2b0$3201a8c0@OFFICE>

Dear Malcolm:

I have a sample of "hurricane mulch" made by tub grinding houses, fences etc. Very wet. There are probably 100 million tons available. Sounds like your wet cell is exactly what they need, but they'll probably landfill it.

We are awash in other sources of energy, but insist on oil and the wars and terrors that go with it...

TOM REED
----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Lefcort
To: gasification at listserv.repp.org
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 1:14 PM
Subject: [Gasification] Re: [Stoves] Moisture in wood

Dr. Kishore wrote:

> One cannot probably use anything available in nature and use it directly in modern

> society. Everything needs processing and that includes wood....

As one who has been involved in the gasification and combustion of wet biomass for the last 28 years in North America's Pacific Northwest, I should like to take gentle exception to the above two statements.

The Lamb Wet Cell Burner and its successor, the Heuristic EnvirOcycler - both of which I designed - are industrial, two-stage, biomass combustors that can readily burn biomass as wet as 65% moisture content on a wet basis. Depending upon the size of the combustor the material must be sized to between 3 to 6 inches minus (7.5 to 15 cm minus)

By "industrial" I mean in the 10 to 100 Million Btu/h (3 to 30 MWth) range. The rating is based on the total enthalpy of the hot products of combustion leaving the combustor, with respect to a datum of 77F (25C).

By "two-stage" I mean a first stage of gasification followed immediately by a separate second stage of combustion in which first stage producer gas is burned.

The Wet Cell was developed in the Vancouver, BC area in the late 1970's, at a time when US President Jimmy Carter declared "war on energy". It burned wet bark, freshly removed from logs pulled straight out of the Fraser River. Emission testing on its stack indicates that particulate is less than 100 mg/Nm3 (i.e., less than 0.125 lb/Million Btu or less than 0.04 gr/dscf), CO is less than 1 ppm and NOx less than 15 ppm, all at 11% O2 by volume, straight out of its nominal 1,800F (982C) stack when burning typical sawmill residue . Wet Cells have been in continuous service in the North American forest products industry for the last 23 years.

Some of the wetter EnvirOcycler projects presently under development by Heuristic Engineering deal with the disposal of, and energy recovery from,

a) 60% moisture content municipal sewage sludge in the US Northeast (1,850/1010C discharge temperature)

b) 65% moisture content palm oil empty fruit bunches in Southeast Asia (1,750F/954C discharge temperature)

The EnvirOcyclers for both projects operate with an excess air of 15%.

Further information on our two-stage, wet biomass, combustors can be found at http://www.heuristicengineering.com

Malcolm D. Lefcort, Sc.D., P. Eng.
Engineering Manager

Heuristic Engineering Inc

Vancouver, BC Canada

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Gasification mailing list
Gasification at listserv.repp.org
http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification

From psanders at ilstu.edu Fri Sep 24 10:07:14 2004
From: psanders at ilstu.edu (Paul S. Anderson)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:07:14 -0500
Subject: [Stoves] Accommodation at Sust. Res. conference
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20040924095025.02106f00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Stovers,

Richard asked about accommodations at the Sustainable Resources Conference
next week in Boulder, CO.

My wife and I are staying at the Super 8 Motel across from the
campus. 970 28th Street. for about $50 per night plus tax. Made
reservation last night, and still numerous rooms. Phone is
303-443-7800 or 800-525-2149 or super8ofboulder at earthlink.net
Continental breakfast is included. We are booked there from Wed 29
Sept evening until morning of Monday 4 October.

The "Lazy L" motel is close, and also has rooms for about $5 less per
night (we stayed there last year.)

28th street is a major road, and the motels are on 28th Access Road,
along the east side of the campus. It is several blocks to walk to the
conference location at the University Memorial Center. To drive to it
means paying the parking lot fees.

The Biomass Energy Foundation (BEF) (Tom Reed and Paul Anderson) will have
a table (#20) in the exhibit area. We hope all Stovers in attendance will
stop by and have a chat.

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Sun Sep 26 21:45:47 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:15:47 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] solar cookers
References: <e0.1ffc71e.2e886f64@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000101c4a43d$6a4fee00$705641db@adkarve>

Dear Sid and others,
I am located in the Western part of India in a state called Maharashtra. Solar cookers are not operable in the cities, because the users cannot find a suitable place in their apartments where the cooker would get continuous direct sunlight for about 4 hours. The villagers generally cook in the early morning, eat and go to work in the field. Therefore they cannot use a solar cooker even if they wanted to. In any case, there is no dearth of cooking fuel in villages (stalks of cotton, pigeonpea, corn cobs, dung cakes etc. There is also rampant growth of mesquite, which too serves as fuelwood). We have been trying hard in this state to introduce improved cooking devices. The argument that the user would save fuel, or would save time in gathering the fuel is not acceptable to the housewives, because fuel is not a problem at all. Also the time saved on fuel gathering would not provide them with any additional leisure time, because they would be expected to spend the saved time on some other work. Fuel gathering is not considered to be hard work by the rural housewives. Because of the danger of attacks by panthers or by fellow humans, they go on fuel gathering expeditions in groups of 5 to 10. Actually, it is the only time in the day that they can spend away from the house, chit-chatting and gossipping with other women. They would resent it, if this leisure time were taken away from them by the introduction of any cooking device that would save fuel. A similar case was reported to me by another voluntary agency, which, with the help of a foreign funding agency, introduced tap water into every village house. This deprived the women the opportunity to gather every morning at the common well and to gossip with other women. Therefore, they sabotaged the pump that provided them with water.
We are however successful in introducing our improved cookstoves into villages through emphasising the fact that smoke and soot affected the health of the family and especially of the infants that were too young to go out of the house. That our cookstoves reduced the exposure of the children to soot and smoke, and that the kitchen remained clean, are accepted by the housewives as valid arguments.
Yours
Dr.A.D.Karve, President
Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
Pune, India.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sid4Salmon at aol.com
To: johndada at fantsuam.com
Cc: carole at fluidITsolutions.com ; adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:45 AM
Subject: Fwd: Request foe vote wsscc

Hi John:

You or Carol may be interested in soliciting a vote. Use this list?

I already voted on Sept 16th.

About the solar cookers, there are several versions, some cheap and some
more expensive but good. Perhaps Dr. AD Karve will want to say something
to you Carol, as he has done some work in India where he lives and is more
familiar with solar cookers from a mutual friend in California Beowolf.

Best regards,
Sid.

From adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in Mon Sep 27 04:17:50 2004
From: adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in (adkarve)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:47:50 +0530
Subject: [Stoves] solar cookers
References: <MEBBLBFPOCHCNFFKJJNGOEIGCAAA.raywijewardene@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001001c4a482$a4ae3300$895341db@adkarve>

Dear Ray,
Mesquite is Prosopis juliflora. It has an excellent survival potential not
only because of the thorns but also because the leaves are not eaten by
animals. Pulped fresh leaves are used as fish poison. However, the thorns do
not bother the people who cut it for firewood. They have developed the knack
of cutting the branches without getting scratched. The thorns are present
only on the younger branches and they serve the purpose of protecting the
foliage. The older branches are not throny. When I asked farmers where the
throns went as the branches got older, they told me that the throns were
shed as the branches got older. However, that is not true. I studied the
throns and found, that as the branches get older, the new wood formed by the
secondary thickening grew around the throns and the thorns slowly sank into
the wood. In thicker branches, about 10 cm in diameter, one hardly sees any
thorns.
As to petroleum, the villages can do without petroleum, as their total
energy requirement is small. They can survive on energy sources like
biomass, biogas, biodiesel, charcoal, wind, water and sunlight. I do not
know, if the cities would be able to survive without petroleum.
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Ray Wijewardene <raywijewardene at yahoo.com>
To: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 11:52 AM
Subject: RE: [Stoves] solar cookers

> Dear Dr. Karve... Thank you for a really excellent response
(Sid-Salmon)....
> I shall keep it to show the hordes of people who come from 'aid' programs
> abroad to help put us on the right path... as the missionaries were wont
to
> do earlier. ... A sort of 'evangelism' I guess.. Your response was a
lesson
> to us all, as it explained that the root of the problem was in health, and
> particularly for children. But we are still saddled with the pollution of
> petroleum which we have happily imported onto our roads and into our and
> towns.... How do you see a solution to that 'black-curse'?
>
> You mention that 'mesquite' is freely available. Is that prosopis?...P
> julifora etc?. Here it is looked upon as a vicious weed as the thorns make
> it difficult to harvest/prune.... even for cattle feed. What system of
> harvesting the prosopis is practised that manages to avoid the thorns with
> which this shrub is amply endowed.
>
> Sincerely yours... RAY.
>
>
>
>

From Fivewildfergs at wmconnect.com Wed Sep 29 20:05:02 2004
From: Fivewildfergs at wmconnect.com (Fivewildfergs at wmconnect.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:05:02 EDT
Subject: [Stoves] electric/wood stove
Message-ID: <46.5a19129d.2e8cb5be@wmconnect.com>

Good Afternoon!

I am looking for a wood/electric stove, my grandmother has been cooking on a
monarch wood/electric range since the 1960's or even earlier. Hers is falling
apart, and she will not go to the new stoves. Can anyone help me find one.
I noticed on the web page that someone was looking for a propane/wood stove
and has an electric/wood range.

Thanks

From Fivewildfergs at wmconnect.com Wed Sep 29 20:19:16 2004
From: Fivewildfergs at wmconnect.com (Fivewildfergs at wmconnect.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:19:16 EDT
Subject: [Stoves] Forwarding: Propane/wood Cook Stoves
Message-ID: <1a8.293152bb.2e8cb914@wmconnect.com>

Good Afternoon!
I was just looking on the web for electric/wood stoves, I don't know anything
about propane/wood. I emailed the list to see if anyone would know where I
could find a electric/wood stove in good condition and in working order. My
grandmother has been cooking on one for since the 1960's and hers is falling
apart and half the time does not work. She will not go to a new stove and wants
the electric/wood combo.
Just wondering if anyone can help. I have been looking for awhile.

thanks

BioEnergy Lists: Improved Biomass Cooking Stoves

September 2004 Biomass Cooking Stoves Archive