[Terrapreta] char in soil test
John G. Flottvik
jovick at shaw.ca
Wed Apr 18 11:22:20 CDT 2007
Sean & Ron.
I think I got the watering plan down. Log book is a good idea so I will go buy one with lots of lines & colums. Photos I can do.
If I can make a small comment about reason for experiment. I think to carbon (no pun intendet) copy terra preta soils will be impossible. To try to duplicate, or make a soil somewhat similar I think is doable. The information, suggestions and help I am reciving from the list is of great help. Discussions on this subject is a great tool, but at some time along this path, we need to plant, physically experiment whether the end results are good or bad. As mentioned earlier, I'm not a scientist but I think even a bad result is a step in the right direction because we can then analyze the results and make corrections or changes to the next test.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to start somewhere. For this test I have 10 combinations of soils with 6 combinations of vegies. I will till up the garden, plant the rest of the seeds in rows which will consist of
S o i l O n l y C h a r in the s o i l JF BioCarbon in the S o i l.
Thanks to all for the valuable input.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean K. Barry
To: Ron Larson
Cc: terrapreta
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] char in soil test
Hi Ron,
It might be useful to record used water amounts and times, yes. Perhaps it will be observed that one of the soil treatments retains moisture better or worse over time than another soil treatment. This will be manifest in the recorded data.
The observation work in these types of experiments can be somewhat expansive (and hard work too), but making a log book (or a spread sheet maybe?!), taking pictures, practicing, making it a smaller chore every time you do it, etc., can be fun and a nice intellectual exercise, too. Analysis of the data and the work done (post facto) can be very valuable at helping you conduct better experiments later on. A large set of observations can make a theory out of a hypothetical conjecture (charcoal in soil enhances it ability to grow food crops?) or prevent you from doing things later on, which show up as ill effects in the experimental data (cold fusion with heavy water and platinum sponges).
A good set of observation and experimental descriptions is something that others can attempt to repeat. Repeating an experiment and getting the same observations in the results, when compared to the work of another independent experimentalist is a very powerful event. It is where science shows its meat, where theories are totally formed, what white papers in peer reviewed scientific journals are written from. It is what we should all be striving for as researchers.
See ... if you ask a science geek that kind of question, you can practically make me dance telling my answer and why, Ron.
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Larson
To: Sean K. Barry ; John G. Flottvik ; terrapreta
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] char in soil test
Thanks, Sean. I am convinced. Is it important for all of us to record the amount of water consumed? Note John also asks about the recommended (minimum?) watering frequency. Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean K. Barry
To: John G. Flottvik ; terrapreta ; Ron Larson
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] char in soil test
Hi Ron and everyone,
I learned this about growing plants in pots from an Ag professor, when I had a graduate course in Plant Propagation at the University of Minnesota. This method for controlling watering does not depend on soil type, soil amount, soil compaction, or pot dimensions so much.
Its about water flow and cohesion etc. Did you ever notice that it takes only a certain amount of water to make a toilet flush? The amount of water required is enough to overcome "the head" and then it flows. It's the same in a pot. When the soil has reached the amount of water it can hold, then it flow through to the bottom of the pot. Any more would be over watering (over saturating the soil). Any less and its under watering. Now, when the pots are all just soil mixtures, with the plants very small, they will likely use about the same amount of water to overcome "the head" in the pot and drip through to the bottom. But, when the plants are larger, the corn for instance may use more water than the radish. Applying the same amount of water then, may leave the corn to dry and/or the radish to wet, or both. When plants are in the ground the over water sinks below the roots, like it will run out in the pots. The graound naturally keeps the soil moisture just at saturation. But in the pots, some nutrients may get washed away with over watering. Too dry pots have no source to get more water like areas of dry ground can get it from a hill above or down from below. Water moves around in the ground by capillary action a lot. So, I believe its more ideal to try to keep the soil moisture about the same in all pots. The method I propose for watering the potted plants will do this, regardless of the size of the pot or the size of the plant.
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Larson
To: Sean K. Barry ; John G. Flottvik ; terrapreta
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] char in soil test
Sean:
I suppose that something is fairer (approaching an optimum of some kind) about the watering proposal you are making - but this sounds like it would be more time consuming than most of us could tolerate. Can you add more on why it is so important to water as you describe?
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean K. Barry
To: John G. Flottvik
Cc: terrapreta
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] char in soil test
Hi John,
I think that if you want to test the effectiveness of a charcoal amendment to soil, then it is necessary to maintain all the other parameters the same amongst the pots of different soil/charcoal mixtures (even the controls). Specifically, the fertilization, sunlight exposure, and watering regimens should be as identical as possible. If you have cow manure in the charcoal mix in pots with charcoal, that fertility will give an added boost to those pots. It may well bias the results of growth measurement in the pots with your charcoal mix. We don't want results that convince us the charcoal mix gives an improvement, when it's the increased fertilizer that did it, right? You should try to get the same amount of cow mix into all of the other pots, or restart the test where the fertilization practice is identical in all the pots from the get go.
As for watering, soil moisture content in the pots is what needs to be the same, not how much water is put in. So water the pots all until they begin to drip, then stop, regardless of the amount water used in any of the pots versus others.
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: John G. Flottvik
To: Sean K. Barry ; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] char in soil test
Morning Sean.
Thanks for all the advice which I will follow. Regarding the "fertilize" comment, some of the pots have char/cow mix (JF BioCarbon) in them which I belive will act as a natural organic fertilizer. In any case I have 6 different combinations of soils and if list members have other combinations in mind I will be happy to add some more pots. This will have to be done today though.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; John G. Flottvik <mailto:jovick at shaw.ca>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] char in soil test
Hi John,
Thanks for outlining your plan for us. It looks like a pretty good plan. I like that you are using two controls (100% Lite Way and 100% garden soil). Hopefully you will fertilize some and provide the exact same dose to everything. Also keep these pots and soil for another test next season.
Make sure the pots have a hole in the bottom of them. Proper watering is to water them just until water starts to drip out the bottom, then stop. This way the soil will not get too wet and potentially leach any nutrients out the bottom. You may not apply the same volume of water when you water them all the same way (this might change depending on which plant and how much water it uses). Just pour in room temp water gently until water starts to drip out the bottom. The soil in each pot will contain about them same moisture content that way (and there is neither under-watering or over-watering).
Good luck and take lots of pictures.
Regards,
Sean K. Barry
Principal Engineer/Owner
Troposphere Energy, LLC
11170 142nd St. N.
Stillwater, MN 55082
(651) 351-0711 (Home/Fax)
(651) 285-0904 (Cell)
sean.barry at juno.com <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: John G. Flottvik <mailto:jovick at shaw.ca>
To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 2:03 PM
Subject: [Terrapreta] char in soil test
Tom & list.
Starting my Charcoal in soil test today the 16th day of April 2007 using JF BioCarbon soil enhancement product.
I will have 6 numbered pots 1 to 6. I will have six sets of 6 pots so I can plant six different samples.
Pot #1- Bought topsoil which contains, black earth; Sphagnum peat moss; Limestone. Brand name Lite Way.
Pot# 2- 50 % Lite Way & 50 % powder softwood charcoal
Pot # 3- 50 % Lite Way & 50 % JF BioCarbon soil enhancement
Pot # 4- 75 % Lite Way & 25 % JF BioCarbon
Pot # 5- 100 % real dirt from an old garden
Pot # 6- 50 % real garden dirt % 50 % JF BioEnergy product.
I will plant some vegetables, corn and plants to try for a wide array of results. I will also cover with clear plastic to keep unwanted rain water from drowning the project. Will hand water all pots equal.
Progress photos and comments will be shared with our list members. Please note that I am not a soil scientist, or a Gardner but will do the best I can and keep an accurate record of my experiment. To end, pots 5 & 6 will be of most interest as real dirt is used.
Regards
John Flottvik
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