[Terrapreta] some thoughts about Terra Preta

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi Kurt,

In part I do agree.  Consumers should bear some cost of actually being the end emitter of CO2, when they buy, and burn fossil fuels.  That will help give consumers the incentive to conserve energy, so they do not use as much fossil fuels as they did before.

You do say "...and the suppliers will do their best to find it, because they will go broke otherwise."  How many oil company's do you think will go broke trying to find a cheaper source for what they know consumers actually do need.  It's far less expensive and far more profitable in the short term, to operate like demand should push prices to through the roof, and not try to fill in by exploring or finding expensive supply.  The last two or three years have shown record profits in the fossil fuel sector.  Energy stocks are being touted as the new best investment strategy, with huge gains and paid out dividends to be had.  

The point I am trying to make is that egregious profit taking by suppliers of fossil fuel is a problem, in a world where energy demand is growing exponentially, and there almost is no other choice for consumers, but to buy and use the product that the suppliers will sell.  It is not a problem likely to be solved by oil company or coal mining executives.  Dog eat dog of business (and investors) requires no less than to find the cheapest supply, sell it at the highest price, and don't ever dip into your record profits, because the consumer absolutely must have the product, right?  The investors must absolutely have their hard earned dividends and the CEOs must have their hard earned golden parachutes, consumers and employees be damned, it's time to rape for profits!

So, if the product turns out to be a huge contribution to messing up the world, then the solution will come on the backs of consumers and employees, period.  No prices reductions, no raises for workers, no dip in record profits.  As supplies dry up, fossil fuel profits will rise enormously.  Profits!   The difference between profits and revenues is what I think is at issue.  Why should supplier profits go up, if the value of their products (not cost, but value) goes down?  Why should suppliers PROFITS go up, if more employees have to work harder (and/or longer) to fill supplies?  I understand supply/demand market actions and how that works to move prices.  I do not agree that record profits are warranted, when the supply is weakening, the demand incessantly growing, it's a necessary product for the consumers, but/and the product is inferior, with the workers and the consumers is being burdened with the full brunt of the companies inferior product.  

The best that could and likely will happen here (as it is in other parts of the world already) with fossil fuel, is that the suppliers will price themselves out of market share.  Renewable energy sources will be able to compete more favorably against fossil fuels.  Out of necessity to keep what market share they can, the suppliers will lower prices, cut CEO bonuses and investor dividends, raise employee wages and salaries, and take a hit on their record profits for once.

I think you are wrong about whether consumers give a damn about the environment or not.  We consumers do have to live in a world, which is being polluted by inferior product, when our costs are going up, when we do not have record profits to use and when our objectives are much longer term; making a better world for our children, rather than making short term PROFITS for our investors.  Consumers actually have a monetary incentive to improve the environment; by conserving we can save money and reduce or foot print on the world.  Fossil fuel suppliers are the ones who loss precious PROFITS, by investing in the environment.  FOSSIL FUEL has no future.  Power and greed corrupt, absolutely and they are panicked and have totally lost sight of the effect they have on society.  Consumers have not lost sight of their world.

SKB
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: rukurt at westnet.com.au<mailto:rukurt at westnet.com.au> 
  To: terra preta list<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
  Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 3:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] some thoughts about Terra Preta


  Sean K. Barry wrote:
  > Hi John,
  >
  > Yes, absolutely, I agree.  The oil industry is not going to want to pay for carbon emissions.  They will (and do) fight tooth and nail to prevent it.  They would pass the cost onto consumers anyway, 
  >   
  And why shouldn't they? The problem with pouring CO2 into the atmosphere 
  was not known until recently. The whole thing is driven by consumers. 
  YOU expect a light to come on in the ceiling when you flick a switch on 
  the wall. YOU expect to have fuel available to power your vehicle. YOU 
  expect shops to carry the foodstuffs that YOU need to live. These have 
  to be transported to the shops. And so it goes on. Without YOU the 
  consumer there would be no market for fossil fuel energy in all it's 
  various forms. Normally in commerce one tots up the costs of bringing 
  something to the consumer, adds a profit and there is the price. If the 
  consumer pays that price, we have a sale, if he doesn't then we don't. 
  So of course the costs of carbon emissions need to be added to the price 
  the consumer pays. Then the consumer may just start to look around for 
  something cheaper and the suppliers will do their best to find it, 
  because they will go broke otherwise.
  But the whole thing is driven by the consumers, who want something 
  cheap, and in general don't give a damn what it does to the environment. 
  Especially not if the effects are still off some time in the future.

  Please note: YOU= the general public
  And I'm not saying the suppliers haven't been charging as much as the 
  market will bear, that after all is what capitalistic commerce is all about.

  Kurt

  P.S. Sean K. Barry, would you PLEASE, pretty PLEASE trim your posts


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