[Terrapreta] soil minerals

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi A.D.

No chip here  ... these are your words -> "But washing would not remove the organic macromolecules and organic colloides that are not water soluble."  I highlighted that last bit.  I'm still just trying to understand what you are suggesting.

So, what insoluble (not water soluble) source in soil (not showing up as measured in soil solution) would should say is the most likely source of plant nutrients, made available to the roots of plants in soil by soil microorganisms?  I think insoluble inorganic "soil minerals" is a possible source (a very small one, as I do not think they contain significant amounts of plant nutrients), but I see the "not water soluble" organic matter as a more likely source for decomposition by microorganisms.  Before, when I asked (an I may well have been mistaken), but I thought you were referring to inorganic soil minerals (which to me, implies that they do not contain elements which constitute plant nutrients or organic molecular structures; N, P, K, S, Fe, Ca, Fe, etc).

And ,please, Dr. Karve, I do feel real bad, if you feel I was offensive to you in any way with my questions.  I am just asking questions to try and understand what you are saying.  I don't feel that you are willing to answer some things.  I pressed the point too far, perhaps.  My inference about transmutation is simply because I think of inorganic soil minerals as not having ANY plant nutrient elements in them; so where did they come from (flippant suggestion)?  But, where are you suggesting they would come from?  I'm sorry, suggesting transmutation of elements is a ridiculous comment and I know you know better.

Nonetheless, you still seem to not answer the question .. is the source of plant nutrients "soil organic matter" or "inorganic soil minerals"?

Perhaps, it seems, when you say insoluble inorganic soil minerals, you mean not organic molecules, but maybe some minerals which do contain plant nutrients.  Is that where I have been tripping over?

SKB
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: adkarve<mailto:adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in> 
  To: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> 
  Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:51 PM
  Subject: Re: soil minerals


  Dear Sean,
  I do not know what kind of a chip you are carrying on your shoulder. >From studying some of the agricultural practices prevalent in India, I developed a premise that soil micro-organisms may be converting insoluble minerals in the soil into soluble ions. Impressed by your knowledgeable comments, I wrote a private message to you, asking you if you knew of any scientific work that might support this view. You asked me to ask this question publicly to the entire group. I did so, and found that it only offered you an opportunity to throw a verbal tantrum. The fact that the available scientific experimental data do not support my hunch is known to me. I had also mentioned the fact that the only reference to support my hunch was the observation that lichens growing on rocks corroded the rocks. I am just searching for evidence. If you do not have any evidence to support my supposition, it is okay with me. If you do not believe in my premise, that is also okay with me.  
  Now I come back to the questions posed by you. I mentioned the organic macro-molecules and colloids as being a part of soil. They cannot be called soil minerals. The word mineral is use for the inorganic components. In order to prove or disprove the ability of microbes to convert soil minerals into water soluble compounds, I was searching for methods of excluding the organic compounds in the soil from an experiment.  
  I would also like to make it clear that I do not believe that microbes or plants caused transmutation of elements.  If the soil is deficient in a particular element, that element has to be provided from outside. But there are instances of plants growing normally even when the soil analysis showed the soil to be deficient in a particular element. I such cases, one can only assume that the element, that was not present in the soil solution, must have been present in the insoluble fraction of the soil and was made available to the plants by the soil micro-organisms. The microbes making non-available phosphate available to plants is well known. I also mentioned the fact that thiobacilli converted iron pyrite, which is insoluble in water, into iron sulphate, making both iron and sulphate available to plants. It might be true of other elements too. 
  Yours
  A.D.Karve
       
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> 
    To: adkarve<mailto:adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in> 
    Cc: terrapreta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
    Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:23 PM
    Subject: Re: soil minerals


    Dear Dr. A.D. Karve,

    You will have to excuse my previous posts to you.  I was not aware that you considered "organic macromolecules and organic colloides" to be the "soil minerals" you were referring to.  If I am still unclear as to what you mean by "soil minerals", then please let me know.  As you say, "(You) always talked of soil minerals and not minerals in rocks or sand". 

    >One can wash the soil to remove the water soluble salts and ions. Lyophilization of the soil would be a more sophisticated way because it >would not remove the soil microflora from the soil. Chemical analysis of such soil would show it to be deficient in all the mineral elements that >plants need, because soil analysis deals only with water soluble components of the soil. But washing would not remove the organic >macromolecules and organic colloides that are not water soluble.
    Just to be clear, I agree with you that activity by living microorganisms in soil can and does decompose these "organic macromolecules and organic colloides = soil minerals" in soil.  This activity releases the plant nutrients (N, P, K, S, Ca, Fe, Mg), making these nutrients available for uptake by the roots of plants.  You say, soils can be measured and found "deficient in all the mineral elements that plants need, because soil analysis deals only with water soluble components of the soil".  I agree with that too.

    Let us, for the sake of discussion, talk about soil which is also deficient of any of what you call "organic macromolecules and organic colloides = soil minerals".  I have and would refer to these new deficits as "soil organic matter" and not insoluble "soil minerals".  Please excuse me, if that terminology confuses you, as it has with me.  What would be left in that soil is what you call "minerals in rocks or sand".  Is my understanding correct?

    The question remains, then, is how can even a healthy bloom of soil microorganisms release plant nutrients from soil, which is absent of them?

    Yours, very respectfully,

    SKB

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: adkarve<mailto:adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in> 
      To: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
      Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 11:00 AM
      Subject: [Terrapreta] Testing if microbes decompose soil minerals


      There were some suggestions for experiments to test if the soil micro-organisms can really degrade soil minerals into their component ions. I welcome them, but before we proceed, let me make it clear that the experiments would have to be conducted with real soil and not with sand. Please note that in all my postings I always talked of soil minerals and not minerals in rocks or sand. Soil is derived from rocks by natural processes that we call weathering. Soil differs from sand not only in its physical characteristics but also in its mineral constituents. 

      One can wash the soil to remove the water soluble salts and ions. Lyophilization of the soil would be a more sophisticated way because it would not remove the soil microflora from the soil. Chemical analysis of such soil would show it to be deficient in all the mineral elements that plants need, because soil analysis deals only with water soluble components of the soil. But washing would not remove the organic macromolecules and organic colloides that are not water soluble. 

      One way of removing all the organic matter would be to heat the soil in a muffle furnace, so that all the organic matter is burnt away. However this treatment would also kill the microorganisms. It would just be impossible to put them back into the soil, because we just do not know how many types of micro-organisms had originally existed in the soil, and in what numbers. 

      In such situations, where experimenting is not easy or not possible, one resorts to surveying a large number of samples, so that one can draw statistically significant conclusions. Correlations between human diseases and dietary agents that cause them are derived in this manner. There is a sufficiently large number of farmers in India who apply to their fields no fertilizers of any kind, those who practice only organic farming, those who apply large doses of chemical fertilizers, and also those who practice the sugar-cowdung-cow urine method of farming. It is thus theoretically possible to get the yield data of all the different categories of farmers and to analyse it statistically. Unfortunately, I do not have the money to this. So here the matter rests for the time being.  

      Yours

      A.D.Karve 

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