[Terrapreta] sugar and soil respriation debate

[Christoph Steiner]

It does not need much of glucose to double soil respiration. Glucose does
not add any nutrients to the soil, therefore I used the increase in soil
respiration as indicator for soil fertility. The microbial population can
not grow if available nutrients are missing. If I feed a forest soil I did
not measure the exponential growth. In contrast the Terra Preta soils had
low basal respiration (soil respiration before glucose addition) but an
extremely fast respiration increase after glucose addition.
Soil carbon is a dynamic equilibrium as well as nutrient supply. We do not
whish to stop soil respiration and decomposition, cycling of
waste,….entirely in order to increase carbon sequestration. Soon we
would smother in dirt and dead bodies and plant nutrition fails. I assume
that charcoal itself is not easily decomposed and remains in soil for
centuries or millennia but it may catalyze the decomposition of the
remaining biomass making nutrients available, increasing plant growth and
thus adding more decomposable biomass to the soil.

Best,
ChSt




Am Fr, 27.04.2007, 06:08, schrieb terrapreta-request at bioenergylists.org:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>
> 1. Re: sugar usage (Christoph Steiner)
> 2. Re: Low Temp Chars (AJH)
> 3.  Long term durability of  Low Temp Chars (Duane Pendergast)
> 4. Re: Long term durability of  Low Temp Chars (AJH)
> 5. IAI conference report #1 (rongretlarson at comcast.net)
> 6. Re: sugar usage (adkarve)
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:38:46 +0200 (CEST)
> From: "Christoph Steiner" <Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.de>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] sugar usage
> To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID:
> <60095.83.215.117.89.1177609126.squirrel at mail.uni-bayreuth.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> Dear Mr. Karve,
>
>
> We assessed the influence of charcoal and condensates from smoke
> (pyroligneous acid, wood vinegar) on the microbial activity in a highly
> weathered Amazonian upland soil via measurements of basal respiration (BR),
> substrate induced respiration (SIR), and exponential population increase
> after substrate addition. The extraction of pyrogenous acid and its use as
> fertilizer or pest control is common in Brazil, where phosphorus
> availability and nitrogen leaching are among the most severe limitations
> for agriculture. Microbial immobilization may prevent nitrogen losses and
> the stimulation of endomycorrhizal associations and heterotrophic
> phosphate solubilising bacteria might increase the availability of
> phosphorus. The BR, microbial biomass, population growth and the microbe?s
> efficiency (expressed by the metabolic quotient as CO2 production per
> microbial biomass unit) increased linearly and significantly with
> increasing charcoal concentrations (50, 100 and 150 g kg-1 soil).
> Application of pyrogenous acid caused a sharp increase in all
> parameters. We suppose that the condensates from smoke contain easily
> degradable substances (and only small amounts of inhibitory agents) which
>  could be utilized by the microbes for their metabolism. I hope the
> results will be published in ?Pedobiologia? soon.
>
> Best,
> Christoph Steiner
>
>
>
>
> Am Do, 26.04.2007, 19:00, schrieb terrapreta-request at bioenergylists.org:
>
>> Send Terrapreta mailing list submissions to
>> terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
>>
>>
>>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> terrapreta-request at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Terrapreta digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.  sugar usage (adkarve)
>> 2. Re: John,s experiment. (Sean K. Barry)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:10:48 +0530
>> From: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
>> Subject: [Terrapreta]  sugar usage
>> To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> Message-ID: <000701c787ca$32dc7240$4d69fea9 at adkarve>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>>
>>
>> I received many inquiries about sugar. I give below the thought
>> processes that led me to applying sugar to a field. Sorghu,m, being
>> highly drought resistant, is quite popular with farmers who cannot
>> irrigate their fields. Sorghum farmers drill the seed into the field
>> when the first showers of the monsoon have wetted the soil sufficiently
>> to assure germination of the seed. After that stage, if the rainfall is
>> adequate, the farmers harvest an average 2 tonnes of grain and about 4
>> tonnes (dry weight) of fodder per ha. If the rainfall is inadequate,
>> they lose the crop. Since the harvest is uncertain, the farmers do not
>> apply any inputs to the field. The grain is used as human  food and the
>> stems and leaves are fed to cattle. Only the roots are left in the field
>> to rot. When one looks at the input and output of plant nutrients in the
>> case of a sorghum field, it becomes obvious that the soil loses more
>> nutrients every year than it receives. I therefore started looking for
>> mechanisms that would allow the soil to sustain such robbery of the
>> nutrients. Although water,
>> carbon dioxide and perhaps even nitrogen are derived from the
>> atmosphere, the other nutrients have to come from the soil. This led me
>> to search for mechanisms that would generate water soluble nutrient ions
>> every year anew in the soil. As stated above, the roots of sorghum rot
>> in situ. Like seeds, roots too to contain plant nutrients.  If you cut a
>> plant at soil level, it sprouts again, using the food stored in the
>> roots. Normally, when one applies only composted organic matter to the
>> field. Compost does not have much nutritional value as far as the soil
>> micro-organisms are concerned. Therefore, although the agronomists
>> recommend the application of compost to the field as a source of food
>> for the soil micro-organisms, the doses of application of compost (25 to
>> 40 tonnes per ha) are
>> calculated on the basis of its N,P and K content, and not on the basis
>> of its nutritional calorific value. The roots thus represent
>> non-composted, high calorie source of carbon. Because the
>> micro-organisms need the same mineral nutrients that the green plants
>> need, I argued, that the soil micro-organisms utilize the carbon and the
>> energy in the roots to extract mineral ions from the normally insoluble
>> soil minerals.  When the roots have been completely consumed, the
>> micro-organisms too die, releasing the minerals in their cells for the
>> next crop of sorghum. I started experimenting with sugar, because it
>> represented a high calorie carbon source, that did not have any mineral
>> components in its molecular structure. Later on I learned that the water
>> of guttation that falls every night from the leaves of sorghum on the
>> soil surface, also contains sugar. When I started looking for similar
>> phenomena, I found that water of guttation of safflower also contained
>> sugar. The water of guttation of chickpea contains organic acids. It was
>> clear that the plants were already feeding the soil micro-organisms with
>> high calorie, noncomposted organic matter, long before I thought of it.
>> Therefore, it is not the
>> quality of sugar or its composition that is important. It has to be a
>> high calorie, non-composted organic substance. At least under Indian
>> conditions, application of about 25 kg (dry weight) of such a substance
>> to a hectare, once every two or three months, gives very good results. I
>> got interested in terra preta because charcoal, with its highly porous
>> nature, offers a much increased surface area for the soil
>> micro-organisms to settle on. Application of charcoal, along with
>> relatively small quantities of high calorie, non-composted organic
>> matter may evolve in future as the new agronomic practice. Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:03:37 -0500
>> From: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] John,s experiment.
>> To: <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>, "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>,
>> "John G. Flottvik" <jovick at shaw.ca>
>> Message-ID: <AABDDBNJ2A6Q5YUA at smtp02.nyc.untd.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I have your descriptions still around.  Consider doing replicates
>> in your next experiments.  Good luck with the ones you are working on
>> now and thank you for doing this work and providing us reports.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> SKB
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: John G. Flottvik<mailto:jovick at shaw.ca>
>> To: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> ;
>> terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ;
>> Tom
>> Miles<mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 11:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] John,s experiment.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sean.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hoped that I had explained clearly before, but I have 6 different
>> seeds ( vegtables) in 10 variations of soils.
>> Tomorrow I am going to collect some new soils from farms, gardens and
>> fields, find some more pots to do a few more samples. I'm not to happy
>> with bought soils as I dont think it will give the real answer we are
>> looking for. That said, what I have now is worth keeping track of, so I
>>  will just add to the variation.
>>
>> Regards
>> John
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
>> To: 'John G. Flottvik'<mailto:jovick at shaw.ca> ;
>> terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ;
>> Tom
>> Miles<mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] John,s experiment.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom, thanks for posting the pictures.
>>
>>
>>
>> John, it sure is exciting to see pictures with some results from some
>> real experiments with charcoal in soil!  I don't remember, but
>> hopefully, you have duplicates or triplicates of the varied test
>> samples.  If you don't, consider making some up.  Make duplicates or
>> triplicates of all the pots, with all the same variances, plant the same
>> kinds of seeds. The replication will help with validating a real
>> effective combination and maybe keep us from having some fluke
>> "super-grower" radish seed
>> "sport" in one of the pots, making us think its an obvious winning
>> recipe. Do you know what I mean?
>>
>>
>> Happy Gardening,
>>
>>
>>
>> SKB
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Tom Miles<mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com>
>> To: 'John G. Flottvik'<mailto:jovick at shaw.ca> ;
>> terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] John,s experiment.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> See:
>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/?q=jfbiocarbonapr25<http://terrapre
>> t a.bioenergylists.org/?q=jfbiocarbonapr25>
>>
>>
>>
>> Be sure and click on the photos for a full view.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From:
>> terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenerg
>> y lists.org> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
>>  John G. Flottvik
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 4:16 PM
>> To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: [Terrapreta] John,s experiment.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear List & Kevin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kevin, your radishes win, they came up first.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Came home from a two day trip and the radishes are all showing. Pot # 4
>>  which has 75 % liteway and 25 % JF BioCarbon
>>
>> is the best but please view new photos that I will ask Tom to post on
>> terra preta.
>>
>> Pot #5 with straight garden soil has the poorest showing. Also see pot
>> with 10 % charcoal.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks to Kevin for suggesting radishes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Flottvik
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> End of Terrapreta Digest, Vol 4, Issue 105
>> ******************************************
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 21:35:36 +0100
> From: AJH <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Low Temp Chars
> To: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
> Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID: <sc2233h60adskl5adgln8h5ahlrai19v82 at 4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:12:03 -0500, Sean K. Barry wrote:
>
>
>> It is claimed that microorganisms decompose or digest bio-oils (VM,
>> pyroligneous acids, acetic acid, wood vinegar, etc.) in charcoal This
>> may in fact be true and there maybe even some evidence to support those
>> claims. But, I don't know if this precludes any sequestration of the
>> carbon in those substances.
>
>>
> This is what I'd like an answer to, I'm completely happy that adding
> char to a soil can enhance the soil by both changing growing conditions and
> supplying plant minerals in an easily assimilated form.
>
> I'm afraid I may be missing some gems on this list because I cannot
> keep up with the threads but if it is to be promoted as a means of carbon
> sequestration then we need to know what carbon remains long term in the
> soil.
>
> Now plants respire CO2 as well as photosynthesise with it, it's just
> that they fix more than they use, so if someone tells me a microbe makes
> use of a volatile portion of the char then I assume it will involve some
> oxidation of it.
>
> Knowing we can make char with fixed carbon contents varying from 70%
> to 99% and that the yield of the original (woody) dry matter will vary
> inversely from 45% to 15% we need to know how much is sequestered long
> term before we start making a generic claims about the effect with no
> regard to the source or type of char.
>
>
>
>> When the microorganisms free up plant nutrients from the bio-oils,
>> immediately when they decompose the bio-oils or when the microorganisms
>> die, then the roots of plants will likely take them up.  These
>> nutrients (N, P, K, S, Ca, Fe, Mg,  etc.), however, do not include
>> carbon-C. Growing plants do not absorb soil-based carbon.  They get it
>> from the atmosphere in the form of CO2.
>
>
> Yes, which is why I'm suggesting the microbes will be oxidising it or
> is there another explanation? Can an experiment that tests the remaining
> carbon from ancient terra preta soils be devised that relates the original
> mass of biochar (low temperature and agriwaste rather than wood I believe)
> to that which survives in the soil?
>
>
> AJH
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:19:17 -0600
> From: Duane Pendergast <still.thinking at computare.org>
> Subject: [Terrapreta]  Long term durability of  Low Temp Chars
> To: 'AJH' <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>, "'Sean K. Barry'"
> <sean.barry at juno.com>
> Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID:
> <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAbxxJInXmQU6ZPRDFG1n46MKAAA
> AQAAAAj7V2YuZ4oEap+tugoEz7mwEAAAAA at computare.org>
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> Dear AJH,
>
>
> I suspect that archeologists could develop some conclusions from layers
> built up over the centuries and carbon 14 content of remaining char. I
> think I've seen some papers along those lines but have no references right
> at hand. I also recall seeing some references that indicate the char can
> last a very long time - into the thousands of years.
>
> I'm sure there are several involved in this list that can point us very
> quickly to the right stuff to start answering these questions.
>
> Duane Pendergast
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of AJH
> Sent: April 26, 2007 2:36 PM
> To: Sean K. Barry
> Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Low Temp Chars
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:12:03 -0500, Sean K. Barry wrote:
>
>
>> It is claimed that microorganisms decompose or digest bio-oils (VM,
>>
> pyroligneous acids, acetic acid, wood vinegar, etc.) in charcoal
>> This may in fact be true and there maybe even some evidence to support
>>
> those claims. But, I don't know if this precludes any sequestration of
> the carbon in those substances.
>
>>
> This is what I'd like an answer to, I'm completely happy that adding
> char to a soil can enhance the soil by both changing growing conditions and
> supplying plant minerals in an easily assimilated form.
>
> I'm afraid I may be missing some gems on this list because I cannot
> keep up with the threads but if it is to be promoted as a means of carbon
> sequestration then we need to know what carbon remains long term in the
> soil.
>
> Now plants respire CO2 as well as photosynthesise with it, it's just
> that they fix more than they use, so if someone tells me a microbe makes
> use of a volatile portion of the char then I assume it will involve some
> oxidation of it.
>
> Knowing we can make char with fixed carbon contents varying from 70%
> to 99% and that the yield of the original (woody) dry matter will vary
> inversely from 45% to 15% we need to know how much is sequestered long
> term before we start making a generic claims about the effect with no
> regard to the source or type of char.
>
>
>
>> When the microorganisms free up plant nutrients from the bio-oils,
>>
> immediately when they decompose the bio-oils or when the microorganisms
> die, then the roots of plants will likely take them up.  These nutrients
> (N, P,
> K, S, Ca, Fe, Mg,  etc.), however, do not include carbon-C. Growing plants
>  do not absorb soil-based carbon.  They get it from the atmosphere in the
>  form of CO2.
>
>
> Yes, which is why I'm suggesting the microbes will be oxidising it or
> is there another explanation? Can an experiment that tests the remaining
> carbon from ancient terra preta soils be devised that relates the original
> mass of biochar (low temperature and agriwaste rather than wood I believe)
> to that which survives in the soil?
>
>
> AJH
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Terrapreta mailing list
> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:28:13 +0100
> From: AJH <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Long term durability of  Low Temp Chars
> To: still.thinking at computare.org
> Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID: <31623311h2pmam8kqc0bg652ibmt76u061 at 4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:19:17 -0600, Duane Pendergast wrote:
>
>
>> I suspect that archeologists could develop some conclusions from layers
>>  built up over the centuries and carbon 14 content of remaining char. I
>> think I've seen some papers along those lines but have no references
>> right at hand. I also recall seeing some references that indicate the
>> char can last a very long time - into the thousands of years.
>
> Hi Duane
>
>
> I'm sure carbon 14 dating can tell us some things, despite not really
> knowing how this method copes with changes in solar activity or atmospheric
> CO2 concentrations, but can it tell us whether the
> surviving carbon in the terra preta soil started out as fixed carbon in
> biochar or oxygenated hydrocarbons bound within a char matrix?
>
> AJH
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 00:26:00 +0000
> From: rongretlarson at comcast.net
> Subject: [Terrapreta] IAI conference report #1
> To: AJH <list at sylva.icuklive.co.uk>, still.thinking at computare.org
> Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID:
> <042720070026.20169.463143180008475700004EC9221357533302019C9D0E049B0A9D09
> 02019D at comcast.net>
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Hi terrapreta list members:
>
>
> Have a few minutes before starting the first field trip activities at
> Wollongbar, NSW.  This is a liovely country.  Rain forests hereabouts,
> moderately hilly.  This laboratory said to be here because they have the
> best soil in the country.  Perhaps more in a few hours if I can get back
> on a computer.  About a dozen so far and a few more expected.
>
> Ron
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> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:56:02 +0530
> From: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] sugar usage
> To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID: <000101c78881$2fbe2e20$4d69fea9 at adkarve>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> Dear Dr.Steiner,
> thanks for the information. I presume that pyroligneous acid and wood
> vinegar would be added to the soil only once, when one applies charcoal
> to the soil. I am suggesting that one applies char once, so that it acts
> as a place for the micro-organisms to inhabit and then add any high
> calorie organic material every year as feed for the micro-organisms.The
> latter is what a lot of farmers in India are already doing. Yours
> A.D.Karve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Christoph Steiner <Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.de>
> To: <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] sugar usage
>
>
>
>> Dear Mr. Karve,
>>
>>
>> We assessed the influence of charcoal and condensates from smoke
>> (pyroligneous acid, wood vinegar) on the microbial activity in a highly
>> weathered Amazonian upland soil via measurements of basal respiration
>> (BR), substrate induced respiration (SIR), and exponential population
>> increase after substrate addition. The extraction of pyrogenous acid and
>>  its use as fertilizer or pest control is common in Brazil, where
>> phosphorus availability and nitrogen leaching are among the most severe
>>  limitations for agriculture. Microbial immobilization may prevent
>> nitrogen losses and the stimulation of endomycorrhizal associations and
>> heterotrophic phosphate solubilising bacteria might increase the
>> availability of phosphorus. The BR, microbial biomass, population
>> growth and the microbe?s efficiency (expressed by the metabolic quotient
>> as CO2 production per microbial biomass unit) increased linearly and
>> significantly with increasing charcoal concentrations (50, 100 and 150
>> g kg-1 soil). Application of pyrogenous acid caused a sharp increase in
>> all parameters. We suppose that the condensates from smoke contain
>> easily degradable substances (and only small amounts of inhibitory
>> agents) which could be utilized by the microbes for their metabolism. I
>> hope the results will be published in ?Pedobiologia? soon.
>>
>> Best,
>> Christoph Steiner
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Terrapreta mailing list
> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
>
>
>
> End of Terrapreta Digest, Vol 4, Issue 106
> ******************************************
>
>