[Terrapreta] Wood vinegar pesticide
Bioware Tecnologia
bioware at bioware.com.br
Wed Aug 1 06:55:48 EDT 2007
Dear Len,
I attend a course in 2002 here in Brazil where I live. The instructor was a Japanese guy Kazuhiko Maekawa from a company MM-Engineering LTDA. His email is mme_kazu at nifty.com. Japan has a large experience in this kind of application. There is also a Brazilian company BIOCARBO (biocarbo.com.br) producing a BIOPIROL for the same application.
Regards from Campinas, Sao Paulo state in Brazil,
José D. Rocha
www.bioware.com.br
Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:04:43 -0400, terrapreta-request at bioenergylists.org escreveu:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Wood vinegar pesticide (Gerald Van Koeverden)
> 2. Re: growth (Robert Klein)
> 3. Re: growth (Gerald Van Koeverden)
> 4. Re: growth (Robert Klein)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:40:40 -0400
> From: Gerald Van Koeverden <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Wood vinegar pesticide
> To: "Len Walde" <sigma at ix.netcom.com>
> Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID: <7A359C01-353D-414D-A200-72342670736E at yahoo.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Len,
>
> I don't have any personal experience.
>
> Just type - "wood vinegar" aphids - into your favourite search engine
> and you will find some references on the 'net.
>
> Gerald
>
>
> On 31-Jul-07, at 11:24 AM, Len Walde wrote:
>
> > Gerald:
> >
> > Thanks for the wood vinegar information. One question: How does
> > it work on aphids? A real problem for me. Anyone else know?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Len Walde
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Van Koeverden"
> > <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> > To: "Jeff Davis" <jeff0124 at velocity.net>
> > Cc: <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Wood vinegar pesticide
> >
> >
> >> I've translated some of the pesticide uses of wood vinegar from the
> >> Thai language on the A.T.A. web site:
> >>
> >> 1. for fungus (mildew?) on tomatoes and cucumbers, spray at a
> >> concentration of 1:200
> >> 2. for tomato root rot, water base of plant at concentration of
> >> 1:200
> >> 3. for cabbage, to repel insects, use concentration of 1:1500 in
> >> watering can
> >> 4. for corn, to repel insects, spray 1:300 concentration
> >>
> >> Gerrit
> >>
> >> On 30-Jul-07, at 11:33 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:
> >>
> >>> Robert wrote:
> >>>> Another product that is a bi-product of charcoal production
> >>>> that is said
> >>>> to work as an effective pesticide is bamboo vinegar (Liquid
> >>>> smoke).
> >>>
> >>> Robert, I was thinking about that. My Gas-of-Fire produces
> >>> something like that and I was considering giving that a try. I
> >>> bet just the smell
> >>> would do the trick.
> >>>
> >>> Hmmmmm, so with the correct gasifier we can produce a gas fuel to
> >>> heat our green house (well, maybe I need one), charcoal for
> >>> Terra Preta and
> >>> now a pesticide!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I hope this all works out!!!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jeff
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:07:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Robert Klein <arclein at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] growth
> To: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
> Cc: terra preta <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Message-ID: <356961.55905.qm at web60216.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Hi Sean
>
>
> This goes to the heart of the problem facing the
> originators of the terra preta soils.
>
> 1 They did not have the tools to physically handle
> the available biomass. We actually have limitations
> today. Their solution was as always to use slash and
> burn. The burn off of the undergrowth would also kill
> off the larger trees which would then rot out over the
> next two years or so. Remember, that this is the
> Amazon.
>
> 2 The ash would provide the nutrients for corn and
> cassava culture. Without terra Preta methods, this
> would be exhausted in two to three years.
>
> 3 With terra preta methods applied to the corn in
> particular, and a continuing burn off of the field to
> suppress weeds and regrowth we get the resultant soils
> with a modest labor input.
>
> 4 I emphasize the corn because it clearly produces
> the several times as much biomass as any likely crop
> can produce, and it lends itself to the manufacture of
> a biochar stack. However, any other convenient waste
> material that could be handled by hand would also be
> thrown into the stack.
>
> 5 Pollen analysis has confirmed the two principal
> crops of corn and cassava, which ended any uncertainty
> I might have had.
>
> The problem is that the only energy available to a
> farm family then was their own. That is the over
> riding constraint that we cannot avoid.
>
> --- "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Robert,
> >
> > You said this again, (and I questioned before
> > whether you meant what you had posted before) ...
> >
> > "As I posted a while back, the only practical way
> > that
> > the soils in the Amazon could have been created
> > would
> > have been in conjunction with the bio charring of
> > corn
> > stover."
> >
> > Why do you think the Ancient Amazon rainforest had
> > corn, circa 2500 B.C. or since? I think, like now,
> > that there is far more "rainforest" fauna in that
> > biome (i.e. big trees, in a jungle, like American
> > Mahogany trees, etc.), rather than corn, or maze.
> > Don't you? There surely is now. Is there any
> > evidence that the charcoal in the Amazon is from
> > corn stover? The native soils (without charcoal
> > amendments) in the Amazon rain basin are Antisol and
> > Oxisol soils. These are high in Aluminum Silicates
> > (clays), low in carbon, and very low in organic
> > material (humus) or plant nutrients. Corn will
> > hardly grow in this kind of soil. It's kind of a
> > chicken or the egg thing. Corn can't grow well
> > until you plant it in "Terra Preta" soil - "Terra
> > Preta" soil is made by amending soil with charcoal
> > made from lots of corn?!
> >
> > Do you have any evidence for your conjecture? Or,
> > are you supposing that corn stover must be the only
> > or main source of biomass used to make the charcoal
> > in the original "Terra Preta" soils of the Ancient
> > Amazon? Why do you suppose this?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Robert Klein<mailto:arclein at yahoo.com>
> > To: Richard Haard<mailto:richrd at nas.com>
> > Cc: terra
> > preta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] growth
> >
> >
> > Hi Richard
> >
> > One of the great delights of doing science, is
> > that
> > every experiment introduces new areas of study.
> >
> > As I posted a while back, the only practical way
> > that
> > the soils in the Amazon could have been created
> > would
> > have been in conjunction with the bio charring of
> > corn
> > stover.
> >
> > Running test plots with such a biochar perhaps
> > produced at several temperatures in conjunction
> > with
> > wood charcoal comparibles would be very
> > informative.
> >
> > The question, of course, is there any obvious
> > difference?
> >
> > Certainly wood charcoal needs to be taken to a
> > high
> > temperatue to provide crushable charcoal, whereas
> > stover is far less fussy and much more forgiving
> >
> > Bob Klein
> >
> >
> >
> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com<http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/>
> >
> >
> > --- Richard Haard
> > <richrd at nas.com<mailto:richrd at nas.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > Some results from the 28 - 17 foot planting
> > block
> > > experiment with
> > > charcoal, compost, fertilizer and permutations.
> > at
> > > Fourth Corner
> > > Nurseries with swiss chard, a native aster and a
> > > woody shrub,
> > > Lonicera involucrata.
> > >
> > > Spent a few hours at the research plots today.
> > > Picked swiss chard and
> > > squash for dinner and farm crew.
> > >
> > > Above ground results so far (July 29) are as
> > > expected. Best is
> > > compost plus fertilizer with or without
> > charcoal,
> > > next fertilizer
> > > with or without charcoal, next compost with or
> > > without charcoal and
> > > last control with or without charcoal. The only
> > > measurable
> > > differences in these sets is with the swiss
> > chard.
> > >
> > > I decided to omit the urea treatment as soil
> > > analysis showed adequate
> > > nitrogen levels in both compost and fertilizer
> > > treatment sets.
> > > Growth is very rapid now and I plan next week to
> > > harvest and blanch
> > > November.
> > >
> > > A first look at the soil analysis on samples
> > > collected end of June .
> > > Next samples will be taken for soil testing in
> > > November just before
> > > harvest. This set of samples is essentially at
> > the
> > > beginning of the
> > > experiment about 6 weeks after plots were set
> > up. 23
> > > months to go
> > > before the experiment is finished.
> > >
> > > Total = 24 plots All OM= 5.04 (.72) All N=14.7
> > > (9.4)
> > >
> > > Total = 2 plots control OM = 4.6 (1.7) N= 2.5
> > > (.71)
> > > Total = 6 plots charcoal and control OM = 4.73
> > > (.79) N=5 (5.1)
> > > Total = 4 plots charcoal OM = 4.8 (.27) N=
> > 6.25
> > > (6.1)
> > >
> > >
> > > Total = 2 plots compost OM=5 (.57) N=10 (2.8)
> > > Total = 4 plots compost and charcoal OM=5.78
> > > (.60) N=12.75 (3.4)
> > > Total = 4 plots compost and fertilizer and
> > > charcoal OM=5.5 (.34)
> > > N=19.25 (7.3)
> > > Total = 2 plots compost and fertilizer OM=5
> > (.42)
> > > N=34 (2.8)
> > >
> > > Total = 2 plots fertilizer OM= 4.65 (.77) N=20
> > > (11.3)
> > > Total = 4 plots fertilizer and charcoal OM=
> > 4.53
> > > (.64) N=16.75 (2.6)
> > >
> > > Key
> > > OM= organic matter %
> > > N= nitrate ppm
> > > bracketed (__) = standard deviation (a
> > > statistical measure
> > > of variation between the set of samples)
> > >
> > > Considerable variation is noted in soil analysis
> > > numbers at either
> > > ends of test row hence an explanation of large
> > > variability seen in
> > > some sets.
> > >
> > > It is interesting to see the effect of compost
> > > ,fertilizer and
> > > charcoal additions on soil om and nitrate. Have
> > not
> > > looked at this
> > > set of data yet on some of the other items of
> > > interest as CEC, and %
> > > base saturation. There is essentially no
> > difference
> > > between the
> > > treatments in pH and buffer pH.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Terrapreta mailing list
> > >
> >
> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> > >
> >
> >
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/>
> > >
> >
> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org<http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
> > >
> >
> http://info.bioenergylists.org<http://info.bioenergylists.org/>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:46:36 -0400
> From: Gerald Van Koeverden <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] growth
> To: Robert Klein <arclein at yahoo.com>
> Cc: terra preta <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Message-ID: <8259248C-2228-4AF1-8ED7-42F1EFD71895 at yahoo.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> I'm on Sean's side in this debate. To get enough charcoal into the
> soil to jump-start the process and get ahead of the leaching by
> torrential monsoons, I suspect they would have had to do slash-and-
> char of the tropical forest.
>
> (A huge tree can be brought down simply by girdling it and letting it
> die, and then burning away at the base to bring it down, (or maybe
> even encouraging the termites attack it?)
>
> It's possible that corn stover was charred as well, as you described,
> but to maintain and up the quantity of char in the soil, rather than
> jump-start the process. I would strongly doubt that there could be
> enough char produced from a few crops of corn to counter the leaching
> sufficiently to maintain and build fertility.
>
> The only thing that the presence of corn and cassava pollen proves is
> that those crops were grown on, or near, that land. In fact, I've
> read that Brazilians of the present day avoid planting cassava on the
> terra pretas. Cassava doesn't produce enough shade cover to compete
> successfully against the heavy weed infestations that 'plague' the
> nutrient-rich TPs.
>
> gerry
>
> On 31-Jul-07, at 1:07 PM, Robert Klein wrote:
>
> > Hi Sean
> >
> >
> > This goes to the heart of the problem facing the
> > originators of the terra preta soils.
> >
> > 1 They did not have the tools to physically handle
> > the available biomass. We actually have limitations
> > today. Their solution was as always to use slash and
> > burn. The burn off of the undergrowth would also kill
> > off the larger trees which would then rot out over the
> > next two years or so. Remember, that this is the
> > Amazon.
> >
> > 2 The ash would provide the nutrients for corn and
> > cassava culture. Without terra Preta methods, this
> > would be exhausted in two to three years.
> >
> > 3 With terra preta methods applied to the corn in
> > particular, and a continuing burn off of the field to
> > suppress weeds and regrowth we get the resultant soils
> > with a modest labor input.
> >
> > 4 I emphasize the corn because it clearly produces
> > the several times as much biomass as any likely crop
> > can produce, and it lends itself to the manufacture of
> > a biochar stack. However, any other convenient waste
> > material that could be handled by hand would also be
> > thrown into the stack.
> >
> > 5 Pollen analysis has confirmed the two principal
> > crops of corn and cassava, which ended any uncertainty
> > I might have had.
> >
> > The problem is that the only energy available to a
> > farm family then was their own. That is the over
> > riding constraint that we cannot avoid.
> >
> > --- "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Robert,
> >>
> >> You said this again, (and I questioned before
> >> whether you meant what you had posted before) ...
> >>
> >> "As I posted a while back, the only practical way
> >> that
> >> the soils in the Amazon could have been created
> >> would
> >> have been in conjunction with the bio charring of
> >> corn
> >> stover."
> >>
> >> Why do you think the Ancient Amazon rainforest had
> >> corn, circa 2500 B.C. or since? I think, like now,
> >> that there is far more "rainforest" fauna in that
> >> biome (i.e. big trees, in a jungle, like American
> >> Mahogany trees, etc.), rather than corn, or maze.
> >> Don't you? There surely is now. Is there any
> >> evidence that the charcoal in the Amazon is from
> >> corn stover? The native soils (without charcoal
> >> amendments) in the Amazon rain basin are Antisol and
> >> Oxisol soils. These are high in Aluminum Silicates
> >> (clays), low in carbon, and very low in organic
> >> material (humus) or plant nutrients. Corn will
> >> hardly grow in this kind of soil. It's kind of a
> >> chicken or the egg thing. Corn can't grow well
> >> until you plant it in "Terra Preta" soil - "Terra
> >> Preta" soil is made by amending soil with charcoal
> >> made from lots of corn?!
> >>
> >> Do you have any evidence for your conjecture? Or,
> >> are you supposing that corn stover must be the only
> >> or main source of biomass used to make the charcoal
> >> in the original "Terra Preta" soils of the Ancient
> >> Amazon? Why do you suppose this?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Robert Klein<mailto:arclein at yahoo.com>
> >> To: Richard Haard<mailto:richrd at nas.com>
> >> Cc: terra
> >> preta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:00 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] growth
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Richard
> >>
> >> One of the great delights of doing science, is
> >> that
> >> every experiment introduces new areas of study.
> >>
> >> As I posted a while back, the only practical way
> >> that
> >> the soils in the Amazon could have been created
> >> would
> >> have been in conjunction with the bio charring of
> >> corn
> >> stover.
> >>
> >> Running test plots with such a biochar perhaps
> >> produced at several temperatures in conjunction
> >> with
> >> wood charcoal comparibles would be very
> >> informative.
> >>
> >> The question, of course, is there any obvious
> >> difference?
> >>
> >> Certainly wood charcoal needs to be taken to a
> >> high
> >> temperatue to provide crushable charcoal, whereas
> >> stover is far less fussy and much more forgiving
> >>
> >> Bob Klein
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com<http://globalwarming-
> > arclein.blogspot.com/>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- Richard Haard
> >> <richrd at nas.com<mailto:richrd at nas.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Some results from the 28 - 17 foot planting
> >> block
> >>> experiment with
> >>> charcoal, compost, fertilizer and permutations.
> >> at
> >>> Fourth Corner
> >>> Nurseries with swiss chard, a native aster and a
> >>> woody shrub,
> >>> Lonicera involucrata.
> >>>
> >>> Spent a few hours at the research plots today.
> >>> Picked swiss chard and
> >>> squash for dinner and farm crew.
> >>>
> >>> Above ground results so far (July 29) are as
> >>> expected. Best is
> >>> compost plus fertilizer with or without
> >> charcoal,
> >>> next fertilizer
> >>> with or without charcoal, next compost with or
> >>> without charcoal and
> >>> last control with or without charcoal. The only
> >>> measurable
> >>> differences in these sets is with the swiss
> >> chard.
> >>>
> >>> I decided to omit the urea treatment as soil
> >>> analysis showed adequate
> >>> nitrogen levels in both compost and fertilizer
> >>> treatment sets.
> >>> Growth is very rapid now and I plan next week to
> >>> harvest and blanch
> >>> November.
> >>>
> >>> A first look at the soil analysis on samples
> >>> collected end of June .
> >>> Next samples will be taken for soil testing in
> >>> November just before
> >>> harvest. This set of samples is essentially at
> >> the
> >>> beginning of the
> >>> experiment about 6 weeks after plots were set
> >> up. 23
> >>> months to go
> >>> before the experiment is finished.
> >>>
> >>> Total = 24 plots All OM= 5.04 (.72) All N=14.7
> >>> (9.4)
> >>>
> >>> Total = 2 plots control OM = 4.6 (1.7) N= 2.5
> >>> (.71)
> >>> Total = 6 plots charcoal and control OM = 4.73
> >>> (.79) N=5 (5.1)
> >>> Total = 4 plots charcoal OM = 4.8 (.27) N=
> >> 6.25
> >>> (6.1)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Total = 2 plots compost OM=5 (.57) N=10 (2.8)
> >>> Total = 4 plots compost and charcoal OM=5.78
> >>> (.60) N=12.75 (3.4)
> >>> Total = 4 plots compost and fertilizer and
> >>> charcoal OM=5.5 (.34)
> >>> N=19.25 (7.3)
> >>> Total = 2 plots compost and fertilizer OM=5
> >> (.42)
> >>> N=34 (2.8)
> >>>
> >>> Total = 2 plots fertilizer OM= 4.65 (.77) N=20
> >>> (11.3)
> >>> Total = 4 plots fertilizer and charcoal OM=
> >> 4.53
> >>> (.64) N=16.75 (2.6)
> >>>
> >>> Key
> >>> OM= organic matter %
> >>> N= nitrate ppm
> >>> bracketed (__) = standard deviation (a
> >>> statistical measure
> >>> of variation between the set of samples)
> >>>
> >>> Considerable variation is noted in soil analysis
> >>> numbers at either
> >>> ends of test row hence an explanation of large
> >>> variability seen in
> >>> some sets.
> >>>
> >>> It is interesting to see the effect of compost
> >>> ,fertilizer and
> >>> charcoal additions on soil om and nitrate. Have
> >> not
> >>> looked at this
> >>> set of data yet on some of the other items of
> >>> interest as CEC, and %
> >>> base saturation. There is essentially no
> >> difference
> >>> between the
> >>> treatments in pH and buffer pH.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Terrapreta mailing list
> >>>
> >>
> > Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> > http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
> > terrapreta_bioenergylists.org<http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/
> > listinfo/terrapreta_bioenergylists.org>
> >>>
> >>
> > http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org<http://
> > terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
> >>>
> >>
> > http://info.bioenergylists.org<http://info.bioenergylists.org/>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > ______________
> > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
> > Yahoo! FareChase.
> > http://farechase.yahoo.com/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Terrapreta mailing list
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> > http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
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> > http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
> > http://info.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:04:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Robert Klein <arclein at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] growth
> To: Gerald Van Koeverden <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID: <98778.61880.qm at web60216.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I cannot see a practical way to achieve slash and char
> without using mud to slow the access to oxygen. Slash
> and burn is global and we fail to achieve a
> significant carbon content.
>
>
> And if you are going to use mud, then you want to
> minimize the surface area of the stack as they do in
> traditional charcoal manufacture. Corn completely
> lends itself to this process as I described earlier.
>
> As an aside, normal slash and burn will leave a great
> deal of uncombusted material that is easy to then also
> handle and haul to a biochar stack.
>
> The real surprise is that the locals caught on to the
> idea of producing as much biochar as possible to put
> back into the soils for the next crop.
>
> The biochar became their immediate source of local
> fertilizer. It could have started as a simple way to
> put some organics in the soil that proved its worth
> over several seasons. And corn also lends itself to
> that approach were direct wood charcoal or biochar
> will need to be pulverized and the unburned wood
> slowly rotted.
>
> I grew up near a nineteenth century camp site that
> still had plentiful campfire charcoal lying around
> doing no good.
>
> That again is why a culture designed around corn as
> the primary carbon source is so attractive. Even if
> half of the corn is only well scorched, it will still
> breakdown quickly in the soil and not interfere with
> the growing process. And well scorched corn biochar
> is easy to carry back into the field. Wood charcoal
> is not.
>
> The point of char in the soil is that it will grab and
> hold nutrients for a while in the face of leaching.
> This will be true even in the beginning and we
> obviously can expect accumulation over sustained
> cropping.
>
> In any event, we need to run field tests to remaster
> the method. And it needs to be done in the Amazon
> over a dozen crop cycles.
>
>
>
> --- Gerald Van Koeverden <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > I'm on Sean's side in this debate. To get enough
> > charcoal into the
> > soil to jump-start the process and get ahead of the
> > leaching by
> > torrential monsoons, I suspect they would have had
> > to do slash-and-
> > char of the tropical forest.
> >
> > (A huge tree can be brought down simply by girdling
> > it and letting it
> > die, and then burning away at the base to bring it
> > down, (or maybe
> > even encouraging the termites attack it?)
> >
> > It's possible that corn stover was charred as well,
> > as you described,
> > but to maintain and up the quantity of char in the
> > soil, rather than
> > jump-start the process. I would strongly doubt that
> > there could be
> > enough char produced from a few crops of corn to
> > counter the leaching
> > sufficiently to maintain and build fertility.
> >
> > The only thing that the presence of corn and cassava
> > pollen proves is
> > that those crops were grown on, or near, that land.
> > In fact, I've
> > read that Brazilians of the present day avoid
> > planting cassava on the
> > terra pretas. Cassava doesn't produce enough shade
> > cover to compete
> > successfully against the heavy weed infestations
> > that 'plague' the
> > nutrient-rich TPs.
> >
> > gerry
> >
> > On 31-Jul-07, at 1:07 PM, Robert Klein wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Sean
> > >
> > >
> > > This goes to the heart of the problem facing the
> > > originators of the terra preta soils.
> > >
> > > 1 They did not have the tools to physically
> > handle
> > > the available biomass. We actually have
> > limitations
> > > today. Their solution was as always to use slash
> > and
> > > burn. The burn off of the undergrowth would also
> > kill
> > > off the larger trees which would then rot out over
> > the
> > > next two years or so. Remember, that this is the
> > > Amazon.
> > >
> > > 2 The ash would provide the nutrients for corn
> > and
> > > cassava culture. Without terra Preta methods,
> > this
> > > would be exhausted in two to three years.
> > >
> > > 3 With terra preta methods applied to the
> > corn in
> > > particular, and a continuing burn off of the field
> > to
> > > suppress weeds and regrowth we get the resultant
> > soils
> > > with a modest labor input.
> > >
> > > 4 I emphasize the corn because it clearly
> > produces
> > > the several times as much biomass as any likely
> > crop
> > > can produce, and it lends itself to the
> > manufacture of
> > > a biochar stack. However, any other convenient
> > waste
> > > material that could be handled by hand would also
> > be
> > > thrown into the stack.
> > >
> > > 5 Pollen analysis has confirmed the two
> > principal
> > > crops of corn and cassava, which ended any
> > uncertainty
> > > I might have had.
> > >
> > > The problem is that the only energy available to a
> > > farm family then was their own. That is the over
> > > riding constraint that we cannot avoid.
> > >
> > > --- "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Robert,
> > >>
> > >> You said this again, (and I questioned before
> > >> whether you meant what you had posted before) ...
> > >>
> > >> "As I posted a while back, the only practical way
> > >> that
> > >> the soils in the Amazon could have been created
> > >> would
> > >> have been in conjunction with the bio charring of
> > >> corn
> > >> stover."
> > >>
> > >> Why do you think the Ancient Amazon rainforest
> > had
> > >> corn, circa 2500 B.C. or since? I think, like
> > now,
> > >> that there is far more "rainforest" fauna in that
> > >> biome (i.e. big trees, in a jungle, like American
> > >> Mahogany trees, etc.), rather than corn, or maze.
> > >> Don't you? There surely is now. Is there any
> > >> evidence that the charcoal in the Amazon is from
> > >> corn stover? The native soils (without charcoal
> > >> amendments) in the Amazon rain basin are Antisol
> > and
> > >> Oxisol soils. These are high in Aluminum
> > Silicates
> > >> (clays), low in carbon, and very low in organic
> > >> material (humus) or plant nutrients. Corn will
> > >> hardly grow in this kind of soil. It's kind of a
> > >> chicken or the egg thing. Corn can't grow well
> > >> until you plant it in "Terra Preta" soil - "Terra
> > >> Preta" soil is made by amending soil with
> > charcoal
> > >> made from lots of corn?!
> > >>
> > >> Do you have any evidence for your conjecture?
> > Or,
> > >> are you supposing that corn stover must be the
> > only
> > >> or main source of biomass used to make the
> > charcoal
> > >> in the original "Terra Preta" soils of the
> > Ancient
> > >> Amazon? Why do you suppose this?
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: Robert Klein<mailto:arclein at yahoo.com>
> > >> To: Richard Haard<mailto:richrd at nas.com>
> > >> Cc: terra
> > >> preta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> > >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:00 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] growth
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hi Richard
> > >>
> > >> One of the great delights of doing science, is
> > >> that
> > >> every experiment introduces new areas of study.
> > >>
> > >> As I posted a while back, the only practical
> > way
> > >> that
> > >> the soils in the Amazon could have been created
> > >> would
> > >> have been in conjunction with the bio charring
> > of
> > >> corn
> > >> stover.
> > >>
> > >> Running test plots with such a biochar perhaps
> > >> produced at several temperatures in conjunction
> > >> with
> > >> wood charcoal comparibles would be very
> > >> informative.
> > >>
> > >> The question, of course, is there any obvious
> > >> difference?
> > >>
> > >> Certainly wood charcoal needs to be taken to a
> > >> high
> > >> temperatue to provide crushable charcoal,
> > whereas
> > >> stover is far less fussy and much more
> > forgiving
> > >>
> > >> Bob Klein
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com<http://globalwarming-
> >
> > > arclein.blogspot.com/>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --- Richard Haard
> > >> <richrd at nas.com<mailto:richrd at nas.com>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Some results from the 28 - 17 foot planting
> > >> block
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
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> End of Terrapreta Digest, Vol 6, Issue 33
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