[Terrapreta] Niels Bech's flash pyrolysis

[Tom Miles]

Robert,


>> They end up baling the straw anyway and hauling it.

You've just identified one segment of the market for biochar that I can't
identify. Now define who is "they", what crops do "they" grow, and how are
"they" likely to benefit from converting their straw to biochar. As people
ask these days, what is the "value proposition"?

Tom


   

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Klein [mailto:arclein at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:30 PM
To: Tom Miles
Cc: terra preta
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Niels Bech's flash pyrolysis

There is one critical advantage with so called small
scale operations.  They end up baling the straw anyway
and hauling it.  Piling it to rot over the next
several years is often the only option besides burning
or chopping and dumping on the ground.  Neither is
very satisfactory when dealing with straw.

That means that the straw arrives paid for and a
problem.

Disposing of the problem as biochar then becomes very
attractive.

arclein




--- Tom Miles <tmiles at trmiles.com> wrote:

> Sean,
> 
>  
> 
> Labor and operating costs kill you in small scale,
> low capacity systems
> unless you are willing to invest your labor (sweat
> equity) into a product
> that you will obtain enough value for (charcoal or
> TP in your crop) to
> justify the effort. That's the earth kiln model for
> making charcoal in
> developing countries: sweat for cash.  If  a small
> batch kiln the size of
> Robert Flanagan's (1.5 t fuel/8 hrs  at 20% = .3
> tonne charcoal) will suit
> your needs you can probably do it if you supply the
> labor and capital. 
> 
> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/flanaganvinegar
> 
>  
> 
> Start with removable straw at 1.5 t/acre to produce
> 0.3 ton/acre charcoal
> (20%).
> 
> Harvest (chop or bale) and fieldside the straw
> including labor $20/ton x 1.5
> t = $30/acre
> 
> Charcoal = 0.3 ton/acre  
> 
> Charcoal cost before capital and labor for kiln = 
> $30/0.3 ton = $90/ton. 
> 
> Now add capital and operating cost for the kiln and
> reapplying the charcoal
> to the soil for an annual crop. 
> 
> Is there enough value in terra preta at 0.3 ton/acre
> if broadcast or as much
> as 1.8 t/acre concentrated in rows to justify
> $90/acre?
> 
>  
> 
> We made charcoal briquettes in a stationary system
> and we tested various
> stationary carbonizing systems in the US and 
> Europe.  We tried mobile and
> stationary cubers and briquetters and built
> stationary cubing plants. We've
> seen various mobile cubers and briquetters. The ones
> that survive grow
> "roots" and are operated in a stationery mode. Even
> at the small scale it's
> all about operating efficiently.  It costs money to
> move around. I predict
> that the small modular bio-oil plants that we see
> being developed today will
> be operated in a single location if they are
> actually operated commercially
> after the grants and subsidies are exhausted.
> 
>  
> 
> Tom
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: Sean K. Barry [mailto:sean.barry at juno.com] 
> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 2:21 PM
> To: 'terra preta'; Tom Miles
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Niels Bech's flash
> pyrolysis
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
>  
> 
> Why did they fail?  Was there ever any attempt to
> process straw, not into
> pyrolysis oil, but rather only into biochar?
> 
>  
> 
> SKB
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> From: Tom Miles <mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com>  
> 
> To: 'terra preta'
> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>  
> 
> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 12:05 PM
> 
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Niels Bech's flash
> pyrolysis
> 
>  
> 
> Doug, 
> 
> Thanks for the link. Niels Bech is apparently a Phd
> student in the CHEC
> group under Kim Dam-Johansen at the Danish
> Technological University. This is
> an excellent research team that has worked on the
> pyrolysis and combustion
> of straws and other biomass for many years.    
> 
> This is a flash pyrolysis process for producing oil
> with a char byproduct
> similar to those of Dynamotive and Ensyn in Canada.
> If you scale up the
> process it will be a fixed plant that will look very
> much like those offered
> by these commercial groups.
> 
> We'll follow up on their research.
> 
> All attempts at mobile or portable (at field side)
> processing of straws that
> I have known of for the last 36 years into any form
> have failed. 
> 
> Tom
>   
>  
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:terrapreta-
> > bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Robert
> Klein
> > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:59 PM
> > To: Douglas Clayton
> > Cc: terra preta
> > Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Niels Bech's flash
> pyrolysis
> > 
> > 
> > A nice setup, but i am not sure this can add much.
> > Grinding fuel in a low volume environment is great
> for
> > running experiments, but not so great for
> industrial
> > scale were we would immediately switch to coal.
> > 
> > I would love to see a literature review article
> that
> > organizes the known and puts it behind us.  Huge
> > amount of work went into this in second world war
> > germany and was briefly revived during the first
> > energy crisis.
> > 
> > We have to appeciate that terra preta carbon was
> > largely produced at a fairly low temperature, and
> any
> > system we now use will have to burn the volatiles
> in
> > order to make the same low temperature char.  As
> > desribed in my posts on incinerator modification.
> > 
> > Any other scheme will be rube goldberg mess.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- Douglas Clayton <dnclayton at wildblue.net>
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Sorry that link didn't work as intended.  The
> google
> > > search does bring
> > > it right up.
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 12, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Douglas Clayton
> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > A friend just suggested I google  Niels Bech
> flash
> > > pyrolysis.  I
> > > > suggest you all do the same.  I have not been
> able
> > > to keep up with
> > > > posts to the tp list but do not believe Niels
> Bech
> 
=== message truncated ===>
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