[Terrapreta] torrefaction vs. Carbonization --------- Char Hydrophobic / Hydrophilic characters

[lou gold]

Yes, very interesting idea. Didn't European villages have "honey wagons"
that collected the dump from the pottie pots of the villagers. Maybe in the
Amazon version the full pots were tossed into pits. This could account for
the massive amount of broken pottery always found at terra preta sites.



On Dec 9, 2007 11:29 AM, Gerald Van Koeverden <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Lou,
> just a wild idea...
>
> Did Amazonian Indians raise any animals for food or burden?  If not, then
> the only manure they had to enrich compost was their own.  Maybe they were
> the first in the world to develop composting toilets using earth kiln
> pots/pits...??
>
>
> On 9-Dec-07, at 1:34 AM, lou gold wrote:
>
> To everyone,
>
> I keep asking this question -- how did they make terra preta? -- from my
> nonscientific intuitive space.
>
> I keep returning to the pottery shards as a vital clue. I think these
> folks fired their pottery in the ground by building a fire around the
> pottery and covering it all up with dirt. It's an uncertain but common
> indigenous method to fire clay, lots of pieces break and are left behind.
>
> I speculate that the next step was to dump organic waste into these earth
> kiln pits and that after some appropriate time of gestation terra preta was
> produced that was then transfered to fields as an amendment.
>
> Does this help in your speculations?
>
> hugs,  lou
>
>
>
> On Dec 9, 2007 4:19 AM, Sean K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com> wrote:
>
> >  Hi Edward,
> >
> > I've read what you said here and it brings me to ask a question.  The
> > original makers of Terra Preta soil in the Amazon did not have the kind of
> > tools that you have to make charcoal.  Clearly, they (all of them) could not
> > have come up with the same "innovative carbonization thermal process" that
> > you have developed.  So, the question I have for you is ... "How could they
> > have may charcoal suitable for TP and what process did they use?"  They are
> > the only ones who actually did succeed (provably so) in making Terra Preta
> > soils work.  And another question I have for you ... Are you absolutely sure
> > that the residual tars left on conventional low temperature charcoal are
> > toxic to all living things; toxic to all animals, plants, and/or all soil
> > microorganisms?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > SKB
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Edward Someus <edward at terrenum.net>
> > *To:* Nikolaus Foidl <nfoidl at desa.com.bo> ; Gerald Van Koeverden<vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>; Sean
> > K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com>
> > *Cc:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> > *Sent:* Saturday, December 08, 2007 11:42 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] torrefaction vs. Carbonization ---------
> > Char Hydrophobic / Hydrophilic characters
> >
> >   *TECHNICAL NOTICE ===== Char Hydrophobic / Hydrophilic characters*
> >
> > It is depending on process conditions. Usually the low efficient thermal
> > processes are leaving high % organic residuals (hydrophobic tars) behind,
> >  which makes them unsuitable for TP. Most chars are for energy (where tar
> > residuals are positively utilized) , not only because it is higher priced,
> > but these hydrophobic chars are not suitable for soil application, not to
> > talk about the tar residuals high toxicity for soil life.
> >
> > *My char I am producing is hydrophilic as my innovative carbonization
> > thermal process has been specifically developed for soil adaptation
> > application. *
> >
> >
> >
> > Sincerely yours: Edward Someus (environmental engineer)
> > Terra Humana Clean Tech Ltd. (ISO 9001/ISO 14001)
> > 3R Environmental Technologies Ltd.
> > ADDRESS: H-1222 Budapest, Szechenyi 59, Hungary
> > TEL handy:  +(36-20) 201 7557
> > TEL / FAX:   +(36-1) 424 0224
> > TEL SKYPE phone via computer:  Edward Someus
> > 3R TERRACARBON:   *http://**www.terrenum.net*
> > 3R CLEANCOAL ENERGY: *http://www.nvirocleantech.com*<http://www.nvirocleantech.com/>
> > * *
> > * <http://www.vertustechnologies.com/>*
> > *-------Original Message-------*
> >
> >  *From:* Sean K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com>
> > *Date:* 2007.12.09. 6:22:14
> > *To:* Nikolaus Foidl <nfoidl at desa.com.bo>;   Gerald Van Koeverden<vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> > *Cc:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> > *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] torrefaction vs. carbonization
> >
> >  Hi Gerrit,
> >
> > Charcoal is hydorphobic.  Charcoal is inert and does not alone absorb
> > nutrients.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > SKB
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Gerald Van Koeverden <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> > *To:* Nikolaus Foidl <nfoidl at desa.com.bo>
> > *Cc:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> > *Sent:* Saturday, December 08, 2007 4:20 PM
> > *Subject:* [Terrapreta] torrefaction vs. carbonization
> >
> > Nick,
> >
> > I had to look up what torrefaction was:
> >
> >  "Torrefaction is mild pre-treatment of any biomass (including bamboo)
> > at a temperature between
> >  200 and 250° C. During torrefaction the properties of bamboo undergo
> > changes, wherein the end
> >  product has much better fuel quality compared to biomass for combustion
> > application. The
> >  decomposition reactions during this process results in bamboo becoming
> > completely dry and
> >  loose its tenacious structure, also the hygroscopic nature of the
> > biomass is changed to
> >  hydrophobic material. Besides this, the process increases the calorific
> > value of the end product.
> >  The actual weight loss in this period would be about 20 to 25 % whereas
> > 90 % of the energy of
> >  the parent dry material is preserved in the torrefied matter. The
> > combustion process of this matter
> >  has less problematic volatiles and hence the process is closer to that
> > of charcoal. It can therefore
> >  be used as an alternate to charcoal in many applications. It also makes
> > the material immune to
> >  attack by fungi. Hence long term storage without degradation is
> > possible."
> >
> > Based on 15 minutes of research, it doesn't look promising.  It would
> > seem that this super-drying of wood makes it hydrophobic...and if it stays
> > that dry in the soil, it would be difficult for nutrients to move through a
> > soil solution into it.  Moreover, it doesn't sound like it is conducive for
> > a 'fungal' bridge between itself as a microhabit for microrganisms with the
> > soil;  in char mixed with composting material, the char actually becomes a
> > microhabit for fungus...
> > However, this is only speculation.
> >
> > How closely have you examined the torrefied wood you have found in the
> > soil?  Does it 'house' microrganisms?  Has it absorbed soil nutrients?  Or
> > is it merely an inert material taking up space?
> >
> > gerrit
> >
> >
> >
> >  On 8-Dec-07, at 2:21 PM, Nikolaus Foidl wrote:
> >
> >  Dear all!
> >
> > My charcoal costs at a charring efficiency of 42 % is around 35 US$ per
> > ton
> > Charcoal. Now after analyzing 15 year old soil where huge amounts of
> > forest
> > where simply burned and charred. Now excavating I find huge amounts of
> > only
> > torrefied wood pieces which as well did not degrade, like the charcoal
> > chunks.
> > Now looking at this and if torrefied wood would do the same as is
> > charcoal,
> > why not save a huge amount of additional CO2 and just torrefy the stuff
> > and
> > mill it and then burry it? Cost per ton would drop to half, CO2 taken
> > out of
> > the atmosphere rise by 50 to 70 %.
> > Just an idea but maybe worth to be discussed.
> > Best regards Nikolaus
> >
> >
> >
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>
> --
> http://lougold.blogspot.com/
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>
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