[Terrapreta] alkaline soils
Randy Black
rblack at hillcity.k12.sd.us
Thu May 17 09:09:02 CDT 2007
To John Flottvik,
One experiment I have been dying to do with bio-oil (but did not have
enough), is to soak some charcoal in it and then apply it to soil. The
purpose would be to use the absorbance property of charcoal to "hold"
the bio-oil in place and since the bio-oil is what the "wee besties"
love to eat not only do we give them homes (pores in charcoal), but we
also stuff their pantries with food. What this would do for CEC and soil
ph is, as most things right now with Terra Preta, are, unknown. I don't
think putting some bio-oil in the soil will hurt as long as you don't go
overboard.
To A. D. Karve,
As most aspects of Terra Preta I think the makeup of "bio-oil" will
depend on parent material and what kind of charring process you use. If
I remember correctly there have been recent posts on this site
describing the difference in oils derived from different parent
materials. I bet Danny Day would know! Or some of the other people
extracting bio-oil from biomass! From what I have read on Terra Preta it
is obvious that since charcoal can be made from many parent sources,
charred at many temperatures, and exist across the "combustion
continuum" from partial char to soot, Terra Preta can have many
different variables and thus the bio-oil could also.
To all,
Two area of research that I think need to be explored is; 1. What
effects do composting with charcoal have? Would the adsorbent property
of charcoal hold many of the nutrients that are lost by outgassing and
leaching as compost ages? And would the microbial mix that occurs in
composting benefit from having the porosity and surface area that
charcoal provides? I call this "Carbonposting" and it is what I did with
a combination of kitchen wastes and manure this year (I will let all
know the results this fall after harvest). 2. What can charcoal do for
the soil texture and structure? Anyone who has worked with charcoal will
attest to the lightness of it. That and its absorbent nature for water
retention make it a candidate for a good soil amendment. Also as Terra
Preta increases the soil organic matter each year (with good soil
practices), what does adding charcoal to soil do 5, 10, or 20 years down
the road? I think that is partially answered by the Amazonian soils but
as Cristoph Steiner recently posted, that was there for them in the
tropics but what about for temperate climates?
Randy Black
-----Original Message-----
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To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Subject: Terrapreta Digest, Vol 4, Issue 145
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: alkaline soils (Tom Miles)
2. Re: alkaline soils (John G. Flottvik)
3. Re: alkaline soils (adkarve)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:24:26 -0700
From: "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] alkaline soils
To: "'Michael Bailes'" <michaelangelica at gmail.com>, "'terrapreta'"
<terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Message-ID: <002201c79832$dfb2eb20$9f18c160$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Even though the inorganic components of some chars may make them more
alkaline can we assume that biochar has a soil- buffering capacity
similar
to straws and other organic amendments?
See http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/avrdcsoilrhizo
It should help a soil resist rapid changes in pH.
Tom
From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
[mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Bailes
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:20 PM
To: terrapreta
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] alkaline soils
On 16/05/07, Christoph Steiner <Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.de>
wrote:
I have my doubts that "Terra Preta" is the solution for all agricultural
constraints.
Yes, of course.but what I like about TP is the way it makes you re-think
traditional soil-science paradimes and makes you question what you think
you
know about soil, fertilisers, SOM,etc
The pH question is just one. Something strange is happening.
As you say little work has been done on alkaline soils and TP
(In fact many soil scientists seem to ignore highly alkaline soils
completely )
Thanks for you valuable inputs Chris.
m
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:25:51 -0700
From: "John G. Flottvik" <jovick at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] alkaline soils
To: Michael Bailes <michaelangelica at gmail.com>, Randy Black
<rblack at hillcity.k12.sd.us>
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Message-ID: <003701c79833$120092d0$1902fea9 at johncd89a8a124>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Michael.
Do know of anyone having tried bio-oil as a soil amendment?
If no has, and if its of interest to the list, I have the bio-oil made
from softwood and the time to put together a new experiment.
Any comments or suggestions on this.
Regards
John.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Bailes
To: Randy Black
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] alkaline soils
Interesting experiment and observations Randy thanks.
I think I am now even more confused :)
There was a Canadian guy at the IAI conference who was just making
liquid bio-oils for fuel.(I think it gets cold in Canada) He said this
was one of the easiest and cheapest ways of transporting bio-energy as
you could use tankers.
I suggested to him that he try experimenting with the bio-oil as a
soil amendment.
My suggestion may have fell on deaf ears; but it would be fascinating
to see what different concentrations of "pure" bio-oils would have on
soil.
m
On 17/05/07, Randy Black <rblack at hillcity.k12.sd.us> wrote:
For the acid loving plants you may need that or some other source
material that was acidic to start with. From my research the more
bio-oil you have in the char the more acidic
Also the more partial the pine needle char the higher the
acidic effects.
Discussion
The results in Experiment 1 show that the acidic effects of pine
needles
rest mainly in the volatile oil/acids contained in pine needles as
seen
in the partial char and bio-oil results bringing the ph levels down
to
below 7. However pine needle char will bring the ph level of water
down
to towards the neutral level of ph 7 as seen in Experiments 2 and 3
with
longer exposure.
The difference between the ph affects of bio-oil and
charred pine needle may be due to a chemical process versus and
physical-chemical process as low temperature biochar does contain
some
of the parent materials properties as impurities with the char. More
investigations are needed to identify what affects the high surface
area, adsorption properties, and impurities in low temperature pine
needle biochar have on modifying ph. Dry ground uncharred pine
needles
also lower the ph of water but take much more processing time and
energy
and do not have the adsorption properties or increased cation
exchange
capacity of char.
The results of Experiment 4 show that a small amount of pine needle
bio-oil can significantly reduce the ph of large amounts of water.
What affects partial char, char, and bio-oil would have on high ph
soils
would need to be field tested with a variety of soil under various
condition and with differing percentages of pine needle
biochar/bio-oil.
Reducing the ph of water and reducing the ph of soils are two
different
processes and long term field testing is needed. Most likely the
acidifying affects of the bio-oil and partial pine needle biochar
would
be temporary but due to the recalcitrance of charcoal, its high
surface
area, and adsorption properties, charred pine needles may be able to
maintain soil at a ph level of 7 for much longer.
Summary
The implications of pine needle biochar for Terra Preta research and
charcoal enhanced soils are tremendous. First, we now have the
ability
to add char to soil that will reduce the ph level instead of
increase it
but still contribute the benefits of charcoal in soil using a common
readily available material. This has implications for alkaline soils
and
to create soils for crops that need acidic conditions. Second, this
demonstrates that we can tailor one of the chemical properties of
biochar to match soil conditions based on the chemistry of the
parent
material. This means that Terra Preta science can be applied to a
wide
variety of soils and has the potential to be individualized to match
soil ph conditions and crop ph ranges. Third, if we can do this with
ph
levels can Terra Preta science be applied to doing this with trace
minerals for crop nutrients or for a chemical/mineral balance that
may
be selective in establishing a desirable specific microbial
community.
The physics and chemistry of pine needle biochar's ph affects are
entirely different from what would be needed to add specific
minerals/chemicals to soil but demonstrates that Terra Preta
technology
is much more than just adding charcoal to the soil and could
revolutionize our ideas on soil and crop management.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
_______________________________________________
Terrapreta mailing list
Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:17:04 +0530
From: adkarve <adkarve at pn2.vsnl.net.in>
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] alkaline soils
To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Message-ID: <003701c79847$0003d6a0$4d69fea9 at adkarve>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
would somebody explain to me what bio-oil is? What is it chemically? Is
is a tri-glyceride, or is it called oil only because of its viscosity?
Yours
A.D.Karve
----- Original Message -----
From: John G. Flottvik
To: Michael Bailes ; Randy Black
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] alkaline soils
Michael.
Do know of anyone having tried bio-oil as a soil amendment?
If no has, and if its of interest to the list, I have the bio-oil made
from softwood and the time to put together a new experiment.
Any comments or suggestions on this.
Regards
John.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Bailes
To: Randy Black
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] alkaline soils
Interesting experiment and observations Randy thanks.
I think I am now even more confused :)
There was a Canadian guy at the IAI conference who was just making
liquid bio-oils for fuel.(I think it gets cold in Canada) He said this
was one of the easiest and cheapest ways of transporting bio-energy as
you could use tankers.
I suggested to him that he try experimenting with the bio-oil as a
soil amendment.
My suggestion may have fell on deaf ears; but it would be
fascinating to see what different concentrations of "pure" bio-oils
would have on soil.
m
On 17/05/07, Randy Black <rblack at hillcity.k12.sd.us> wrote:
For the acid loving plants you may need that or some other source
material that was acidic to start with. From my research the more
bio-oil you have in the char the more acidic
Also the more partial the pine needle char the higher the
acidic effects.
Discussion
The results in Experiment 1 show that the acidic effects of pine
needles
rest mainly in the volatile oil/acids contained in pine needles as
seen
in the partial char and bio-oil results bringing the ph levels
down to
below 7. However pine needle char will bring the ph level of water
down
to towards the neutral level of ph 7 as seen in Experiments 2 and
3 with
longer exposure.
The difference between the ph affects of bio-oil and
charred pine needle may be due to a chemical process versus and
physical-chemical process as low temperature biochar does contain
some
of the parent materials properties as impurities with the char.
More
investigations are needed to identify what affects the high
surface
area, adsorption properties, and impurities in low temperature
pine
needle biochar have on modifying ph. Dry ground uncharred pine
needles
also lower the ph of water but take much more processing time and
energy
and do not have the adsorption properties or increased cation
exchange
capacity of char.
The results of Experiment 4 show that a small amount of pine
needle
bio-oil can significantly reduce the ph of large amounts of water.
What affects partial char, char, and bio-oil would have on high ph
soils
would need to be field tested with a variety of soil under various
condition and with differing percentages of pine needle
biochar/bio-oil.
Reducing the ph of water and reducing the ph of soils are two
different
processes and long term field testing is needed. Most likely the
acidifying affects of the bio-oil and partial pine needle biochar
would
be temporary but due to the recalcitrance of charcoal, its high
surface
area, and adsorption properties, charred pine needles may be able
to
maintain soil at a ph level of 7 for much longer.
Summary
The implications of pine needle biochar for Terra Preta research
and
charcoal enhanced soils are tremendous. First, we now have the
ability
to add char to soil that will reduce the ph level instead of
increase it
but still contribute the benefits of charcoal in soil using a
common
readily available material. This has implications for alkaline
soils and
to create soils for crops that need acidic conditions. Second,
this
demonstrates that we can tailor one of the chemical properties of
biochar to match soil conditions based on the chemistry of the
parent
material. This means that Terra Preta science can be applied to a
wide
variety of soils and has the potential to be individualized to
match
soil ph conditions and crop ph ranges. Third, if we can do this
with ph
levels can Terra Preta science be applied to doing this with trace
minerals for crop nutrients or for a chemical/mineral balance that
may
be selective in establishing a desirable specific microbial
community.
The physics and chemistry of pine needle biochar's ph affects are
entirely different from what would be needed to add specific
minerals/chemicals to soil but demonstrates that Terra Preta
technology
is much more than just adding charcoal to the soil and could
revolutionize our ideas on soil and crop management.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
_______________________________________________
Terrapreta mailing list
Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
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Terrapreta mailing list
Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
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