[Terrapreta] Abstract on Charcoal in soil
Randy Black
rblack at hillcity.k12.sd.us
Wed May 23 10:33:12 CDT 2007
Sean, In regards to this posting:
"Hi Kevin,
I do not know entirely what creates humic acid. As I understand it,
humic substances (including humic acid) are created by microbial
decomposition of organic molecules. I would agree, though, that
increased humic acid in soil will lower the pH of the soil.
SKB"
>From all my readings on the role of humus as an end product of Terra
Preta and as an important active agent to sustain the Terra Preta
process, I have come up with little! That's because humus, humus
formation, and humus decomposition is a very complex process that like
Terra Preta, has many variables and first, second, third, and so on
order effects as the soil lives, breaths, and dies. What can be said is
this:
1. Soil with lots of organic matter will create humus and humin and
other stable long chain organic compounds.
2. Soil that is being depleted by poor cultivation practices will loss
humus and all those long chain organic compounds.
3. Humus works like a "bank" to store organic compounds
>From a chemistry viewpoint all compounds and elements want to be
"stable". Acidic materials go towards neutral ph as do alkaline
materials. Ions move to materials that have an ionic affinity with them,
plus goes to minus and minus goes to plus. This of course is a very
simplified explanation. What decomposition, oxidation, heat, water,
freezing, and the microbial process does to organic matter is break
bonds and creates imbalances in the resulting compounds. This is what
frees ions and organic compounds in soil to feed plants and the excess
can combine to form humus.
In short lots of organic matter - lots of organic activity - good
productive soil! That's what charcoal/carbon helps with in the soil by
adsorbing ions, releasing them, and via the high CEC increasing that
valuable organic activity. Of course charcoal provides other benefits as
we have discussed this one pertains to humus.
I think the role of humus in Terra Preta deserves much research as I
feel that it is a vital component of the Terra Preta process. Also I
think humus may be the key in how Terra Preta "grows" back.
The best article on humus I have read is: Humus-Still a Mystery.
http://users.ids.net/~nofari/tnf_hums.htm Also if you Google humus there
is an article that shows 3 separate chemical pathways for its formation.
I am sorry that I don't have that link.
Randy Black
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Abstract on Charcoal in soil (Sean K. Barry)
2. Re: Abstract on Charcoal in soil (Sean K. Barry)
3. Re: Abstract on Charcoal in soil (Sean K. Barry)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 20:58:52 -0500
From: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Abstract on Charcoal in soil
To: "Randy Black" <rblack at hillcity.k12.sd.us>, "Kevin Chisholm"
<kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Message-ID: <AABDFHH7SAKNQAQA at smtp04.nyc.untd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Kevin,
"The carbon in most biomass is in the carbohydrate or hydrocarbon form,
"
I don't think that is correct.
Carbohydrates are the most abundant biological molecules. n(C + H2O) =>
(CH2O)n, n>=3 is the general molecular structure of sugars, cellulose,
starch, lignin, etc. Once living, but dead and decomposed organic
molecules provide the carbon and hydrogen atoms, which are the two
primary constituents of hydrocarbons. Pure hydrocarbons are just
hydrogen and carbon in chains of HCH bonded together at the carbon
atoms; methane (CH4), ethane (C2H6) are pure hydrocarbons (alkanes).
The general formula is C(n)H(2*n+2). They DO NOT contain oxygen (or
they would be classified as more closely as carbohydrates). Sometimes
(impure hydrocarbons) have nitrogen (N) or sulfer (S) atoms. Living
biomass does not hydrocarbons; even oils which are fatty acids (which
are not like pure liquid hydrocarbon oils) and they do have some oxygen
atoms in the structures.
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Chisholm<mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
To: Randy Black<mailto:rblack at hillcity.k12.sd.us>
Cc:
terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Abstract on Charcoal in soil
Dear Randy
Randy Black wrote:
>
> Kevin,
>
> All forms of carbon are the same!
Regrettably, I have to be contrarian again!! ;-) Consider, as three
extreme examples, diamond, graphite, and lampblack... do you know of
any
"bugs" that can eat them?
Consider two much closer examples... cellulose and starch. They have
the
same chemical formula, yet, as Dr. Karve notes, you get 1/2 the biogas
from Cellulose as you get from Starch.
The carbon in most biomass is in the carbohydrate or hydrocarbon form,
and is in a form that various life forms can "sink their teeth" into
it.
It has a nutritive value, and it is worthwhile for them to attack it.
I
don't know of any biological process that can react with diamond,
graphite, or lampblack, or charcoal, and build its carbon into a
biomass
system. From my limited knowledge, it seems to me that carbon must
have
another element tied to it chemically before biological life forms are
able to consume it.
Best wishes,
Kevin
Carbon is an element and if you burn
> off all the impurities in any organic material you get carbon. This
is
> why partial biochar is so important to Terra Preta. The partial
biochar
> does have many differences based on its parent material. Pine needle
> biochar can actually lower the ph in soil where pine wood biochar
> increases it. This is due to the acidic oils that are present in
pine
> needles but not in pine wood. So when you say "It would appear that
all
> forms of carbon are considered as equal, when this is not
necessarily
> the case. Indeed , it is likely that carbohydrate carbon,
cellulostic
> carbon, and charcoal carbon serve very different functions.", it is
> different if you are talking about carbon or talking about partial
> biochar.
>
> Also the physical structure of the char will be different depending
on
> parent material. Wood has a lot of pores due to the cell structure
> inherent in the wood but I have not seen anything on the cell
structure
> of say grass, leaves, or any organic material. I have also noticed
the
> difference is cell structure of my charcoal when I use dry fresh
wood
> versus rotten older wood. The rotten older wood breaks down much
easier
> and seems to hare larger pores.
>
> Randy Black
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:41:51 -0500
From: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Abstract on Charcoal in soil
To: <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>, "Saibhaskar Nakka"
<saibhaskarnakka at gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AABDFHLQDAWG7HQS at smtp03.nyc.untd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello Dr. Reddy,
I would avoid ash content in the charred material as much as possible
when applying it to alkaline soils. Ash is alkaline. Charcoal which is
made at a lower temperature than say 450 degrees C and with very limited
oxygen will be better. It will be only partially combusted or combusted
to a lesser extent (consequently, less ash content also). It may well
contain more volatile matter and I think it will likely be more acidic
than more fully combusted biomass.
If it were possible at all for you to make a "proximate analysis" (and a
pH test) of the feedstock and the resulting charcoal from different
methods of making the charcoal, then you may be able to select the
biomass material and the method to achieve the lowest pH, which will
help neutralize the alkaline soils you are going to amend.
Additionally, you may be able to lower the pH of the soil by mixing in
lower pH fertilizers with the charcoal when the amendment is made. Talk
to your countrymen, Dr. AD Karve about using cow urine as a part of the
amendment. I'm sure is contains uric acid and will lower the pH.
There is some hope, I think, and perhaps there has been some research as
well, which would show that carbon in soil can act as a "buffer" and it
will help to neutralize the soil over time, anyway, even if the charcoal
(or the amendment in general) is not acidic and is being put into
alkaline soils. <- That might be an interesting research project for you
to do, if you wanted to.
Best of luck with your project.
Regards,
Sean K. Barry
Principal Engineer/Owner
Troposphere Energy, LLC
11170 142nd St. N.
Stillwater, MN 55082
(651) 351-0711 (Home/Fax)
(651) 285-0904 (Cell)
sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: Saibhaskar Nakka<mailto:saibhaskarnakka at gmail.com>
To:
terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Abstract on Charcoal in soil
Dear All,
The present ongoing discussions are very useful and relevant to my
present plan to treat Alkaline Soils with application of Terra Preta
http://e-alkalinesoilsterrapreta.blogspot.com/
<http://e-alkalinesoilsterrapreta.blogspot.com/>, yesterday I had been
to Kothur Village, a V & A Programme village in Semi-arid environment
(for more information see
http://e-charcoalmaking.blogspot.com/<http://e-charcoalmaking.blogspot.c
om/>). I explained the farmers regarding the use and application of
Terra Preta for treating the alkaline soils. Before that some char
pieces were brought for demonstrating the use and good qualities of
char. Using the high resolution imageries of Google the fields with
intense alkaline soils were identified. From those selected areas four
farmers have come forward to try this method in their half to one acre
size fields. Regarding the application, as there is abundant
availability of Prosopis in the village, this is an easy method for
them. The logistics an
d the cost of char was discussed, they were able to sell char @Rs. 0.2$
(USD) per kg. For applying about 1500 kgs of Char per acre, it would
cost them about Rs. 300$ (USD). Which seems to be on the higher side for
the poor farmers, so another alternative was making charcoal from the
thin stems of Prosopis a wasted product in the charcoal making process
and there was plenty of such dry twigs / stems of Prosopis available.
Some farmers in the recent past trying to reclaim their Prosopis lands
have used machinery and there are lots of heavy uprooted root stocks,
with soil attached. They are burning such root stocks in the respective
fields. This kind of burnt material consists of
1.. partial biochar
2.. Char,
3.. well burnt soil and
4.. plenty of ash
The farmers have agreed to put this resultant material in their
fields, which is of no cost and available in plenty. I am only hopeful
that the above resultant material is acidic and would improve the soil
quality. As the farmers have not started the process yet, the timely
advice from you all would be helpful.
The Link for photographs and above content:
http://e-alkalinesoilsterrapreta.blogspot.com/<http://e-alkalinesoilster
rapreta.blogspot.com/>
Dr. N. Sai Bhaskar Reddy
On 5/16/07, Christoph Steiner <
Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.de<mailto:Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.
de>> wrote:
Dear Kevin,
Terra Preta fertility is the result of increased nutrient
availability
(mainly phosphorus and calcium), lower pH and acidity, and soil
biological
Best wishes,
Christoph
>
> Dear Michael
>
>
> I might be missing something, but doesn't this test seem to test
the
> benefits of soil nutrients rather than the benefits of Terra
Preta?
>
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> Michael Bailes wrote:
>
>> Abstract Application of organic fertilizers and charcoal
increase
>> nutrient stocks in the rooting zone of crops, reduce nutrient
leaching
>>
--
Dr. N. Sai Bhaskar Reddy
Mobile No. 9246352018 _______________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 22:05:55 -0500
From: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Abstract on Charcoal in soil
To: "Michael Bailes" <michaelangelica at gmail.com>, "Kevin Chisholm"
<kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
Cc: Christoph Steiner <Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.de>,
terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Message-ID: <AABDFHM5GAEDLC3S at smtp03.nyc.untd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Kevin,
I do not know entirely what creates humic acid. As I understand it,
humic substances (including humic acid) are created by microbial
decomposition of organic molecules. I would agree, though, that
increased humic acid in soil will lower the pH of the soil.
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Chisholm<mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
To: Michael Bailes<mailto:michaelangelica at gmail.com>
Cc: Christoph Steiner<mailto:Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.de> ;
terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Abstract on Charcoal in soil
Dear Michael
Michael Bailes wrote:
>>
>> The carbon in most biomass is in the carbohydrate or hydrocarbon
form,
>> and is in a form that various life forms can "sink their teeth"
into it.
>> It has a nutritive value, and it is worthwhile for them to attack
it.
>>
> It seems the resins and bio-oils on the char are most important for
> encouraging microbial growth.
> In the Amazon hardwoods were used containing a lot of resins.
> I would agree there are many types of carbon as well as many types
of
> charcoal.
> One problem with research is that few researchers characterise what
sort of
> charcoal they are using; making comparisons difficult.
>
> On 16/05/07, Christoph Steiner
<Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth.de<mailto:Christoph.Steiner at uni-bayreuth
.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Kevin,
>>
>> Terra Preta fertility is the result of increased nutrient
availability
>> (mainly phosphorus and calcium), lower pH and acidity,
>
>
> Chris I have always been puzzled by charcoal and pH.
> How can putting something with a pH of 8-9 on the soil, lower soil
pH.?
> It is most odd, unless the char contains a lot of ash.
>
> So does the presence of charcoal slows the decomposition of organic
matter
> yes/no?/don't know?
To polarize the issue, I would hypothesize as follows:
1: Charcoal per se has no effect on soil pH
2: Residual alkaline earths (Cao, MgO) and alkali metals (Na2O, K2O)
in
associated ash can raise pH.
3: The charcoal and nutrients promote growth of bacteria, and roots
interact with the increased bacterial concentrations to produce humic
acids which lower pH.
Would you have any thoiughts that would tend to support or refute
these
hypotheses?
Thanks!!
Kevin
>
>
>
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>
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