[Terrapreta] carbon sequestration but where is TP?
Sean K. Barry
sean.barry at juno.com
Thu Oct 11 00:17:58 EDT 2007
Hi Brian, Edward,
I am assuming that the Life Cycle Analysis of charcoal in soil that is being referred to here by you Brian, primarily relates to how long that carbon in the form of charcoal remains in the soil (and in that form)? I believe that in past discussions on this point with you, Edward, you related that charcoal indeed has a very long, yet not infinite half-life in soil. Something on the scale of several millennia, at least, if I recall. You suggested, too, that this was a result of some research that has been done on this issue.
Additionally, it has been mentioned (by others on this list and in at least one Soil Science Conference, which I had attended in Philadelphia, PA) that some charcoal from Amazonian Dark Earths has been carbon dated at circa ~2500 years old. I do not know specifically though where this carbon dating was done, by whom, or where it is documented. I have been searching some for this, but have not found it in any literature on it yet. Dr. Lehmann's book discusses Wim Somberg's finding that the ADE exists and was found in archaeological digs. I have been trying to find the age of these discussed archaeological remnants but, again, have yet not seen any dates. I think it is clear, though, that ADE is anthropological in formation and that the people who did this were at least Pre-Columbian, hence ADE is at least 500 years old.
If a representative amount charcoal samples in ADE soils (let's say spanning the entire depth of several sites) is confirmed by calibrated carbon dating at ~500 to ~2500 years old since it was buried, then it seems to me that this would serve to support the premise that charcoal in soil does indeed have a long half-life, and it's Life Cycle is at least long lived. This should be still true, even if it is not entirely understood as to how any decay of the amount of charcoal carbon occurs. The decay would be a natural process. If any sort of high speed loss events (like washouts or other large soil disturbances) could be discounted, then this decay should not show that charcoal exists for a long time, then just suddenly disappears from the soil horizon. I think it would be gradual and would maybe have a long half-life, like other natural decay processes.
Maybe what I am suggesting would be viewed as just speculation? I do think, though, that any evidence of aged charcoal in soil can support a thesis of at least, a LONG Life Cycle of charcoal carbon in soil. I should point out too, that here I am only discussing the longevity charcoal carbon containment in soil (C sequestration), not the Life Cycle of the fertility effects of ADE.
Regards,
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: Edward Someus<mailto:edward at terrenum.net>
To: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; bhans at earthmimic.com<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] carbon sequestration but where is TP?
Brian,
YES, you have right: all standpoint must be properly researched and demonstrated from science to economical technology. This is exactly what we do for and on behalf of the European Union Food Safety Commission in the project PROTECTOR which will have international dissemination in 2008. We are one of the leading char manufacturing and carbon state fermentation & formulation technology developers for soil adaptation of carbons, incl. Bone charcoal and biocharcoal as well. My 2005-2008 FP6 European Union Food Safety Commission consortium is including several leading European scientific research institutes and universities from 8 countries, while our new next generation FP7 proposal for BIO-CARBON including already 20 partners from 12 EU countries, and including all the major EU (FR, NL, DE, B, IT, ES, A, IL, HU, LU, CY, PT) research units in the subjects.
There are 2 contrary issues:
PRO = from our consortium there will be several scientific publications in 2008 supporting char adaptation in soil, specifically aimed for the horticultural industry.
CON = Where are the LCA's, which studies stating conclusion that char systems doesn't offer any real advantage for soil adaptation?
CON = Could you pls advise where can we find LCA publications which studies stating conclusion that char systems doesn't offer any real advantage for soil adaptation?
I would be really happy to challenge an international scientific brainstorming on PRO vs CON results in the subject.
Sincerely yours: Edward Someus (environmental engineer)
Terra Humana Clean Technology Engineering Ltd.
(ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 certified organization for scientific research, technical development and industrial performance engineering design of agro-biotechnological and pyrolysis methods, apparatus and applications)
ADDRESS: H-1222 Budapest, Szechenyi 59, Hungary
TEL handy: +(36-20) 201 7557
TEL / FAX: +(36-1) 424 0224
TEL SKYPE phone via computer: Edward Someus
WEB: www.terrenum.net <http://www.terrenum.net/>
-------Original Message-------
From: Brian Hans<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com>
Date: 2007.10.10. 22:21:08
To: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] carbon sequestration but where is TP?
Edward,
This was the point of my post, where is the data one way or another? How can sequestration be assumed? Where are the LCA's of any given process?
Opinion and conjecture isnt enough. Hard cold data is needed and it simply isnt available. Or if it is, people are hoarding it:)
Brian Hans
Edward Someus <edward at terrenum.net> wrote:
Dear Brian,
Thank you for your straight view on TP. You have listed interesting aspects for brainstorming, however I suggest the issue is far more complex than to make conclusions.
Could you pls help us to identify credible LifeCycle analysis report which is providing scientific and technical evidence that most char systems doesn't seem to offer any real advantage overall?
Pls indicate which studies stating conclusion that char systems doesn't seem to offer any real advantage overall.
Thank you.
Sincerely yours: Edward Someus (environmental engineer)
Terra Humana Clean Technology Engineering Ltd.
(ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 certified organization for scientific research, technical development and industrial performance engineering design of agro-biotechnological and pyrolysis methods, apparatus and applications)
ADDRESS: H-1222 Budapest, Szechenyi 59, Hungary
TEL handy: +(36-20) 201 7557
TEL / FAX: +(36-1) 424 0224
TEL SKYPE phone via computer: Edward Someus
WEB: www.terrenum.net <http://www.terrenum.net/>
-------Original Message-------
From: Brian Hans<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com>
Date: 2007.10.10. 17:17:31
To: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] carbon sequestration but where is TP?
If I could be so bold as to offer a few reasons;
As I and others have pointed out, the LifeCycle analysis of most char systems doesnt seem to offer any real advantage overall.
Additionally, TP is a relatively new science and as the banter on this site shows, is still pretty thin in real data. Example is show me a study where we can see the charcoal we make now will remain charcoal in the soil for 100 + years... ?
Lastly and likely most importantly, there are no major corp's pushing char because they dont see economic models in a distributive productionlike char in the fields would likely be. Its much easier to think how someone is going to make $ on a $200m project injecting CO2 into a well from a coal plant than a whole bunch of farmers making charcoal out of stumps and corn cobs... and unfortunately $ talks.
On a bright note...I do see this worm starting to turn, the word is getting out. The more data we have (ground truth), the louder the voice becomes. Also, the economy of CO2 is still in its infancy, its still to fully mature.
The group needs to remember that even tho the technology is 1000's of years old, we are all still early adopters.
Brian Hans
Duane Pendergast <still.thinking at computare.org> wrote:
Michael,
I searched through the UNFCCC's 2001 and 2007 IPCC reports on mitigation and found no mention of Terra Preta or char. They come close in the 2007 report by talking about burning biomass for energy, and capturing and sequestering the carbon dioxide. It's not too much of a leap of imagination to go to the concept of partial combustion with the production of char - but it seems to be taking a long time. A cynic might think the UN and the IPCC are not interested in techniques that might work - and also produce side benefits which might be more important than their original goal to manage atmospheric carbon dioxide.
Duane
-----Original Message-----
From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Michael Bailes
Sent: October 9, 2007 10:25 PM
To: Terrapreta
Subject: [Terrapreta] carbon sequestration but where is TP?
Carbon sequestration- but where is Terra preta?
Still under the radar?
Why?
RI farmers can join fight against climate change<http://www.thejakartapost.com/detaileditorial.asp?fileid=20071002.E03&irec=2>
Jakarta Post - Jakarta,Indonesia
Carbon sequestration is one of the possible solutions to global climate change. It means facilitating the redistribution of carbon from the air. ...
See all stories on this topic<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ncl=http://www.thejakartapost.com/detaileditorial.asp%3Ffileid%3D20071002.E03%26irec%3D2>
Labor announces $100m indigenous plan<http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22535521-11949,00.html>
The Australian - Sydney,Australia
"CSIRO research indicates that there are savannah management options which could significantly increase carbon sequestration. "There are 60 million hectares ...
See all stories on this topic<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ncl=http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22535521-11949,00.html>
Christmas tree goes green<http://www.benningtonbanner.com/localnews/ci_7090998>
Bennington Banner - Bennington,VT,USA
The Carbon Capital Fund allows consumers to offset carbon emissions by directly investing in carbon sequestration projects on National Forest land. ...
See all stories on this topic<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ncl=http://www.benningtonbanner.com/localnews/ci_7090998>
Bold Moves for Renewables in 110th Congress<http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/reinsider/story?id=50182>
RenewableEnergyAccess.com - Peterborough,NH,USA
... may promote more tree panting and carbon sequestration from coal and petroleum rather than promote energy efficiency and renewable energy applications. ...
See all stories on this topic<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ncl=http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/reinsider/story%3Fid%3D50182>
Quick Thoughts on Carbon Sequestration<http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/perelman021007.html>
Monthly Review - Herndon,VA,USA
A fashionable suggestion is technologically intensive carbon sequestration. That, however, is an excessively expensive and probably technically impossible ...
See all stories on this topic<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ncl=http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/perelman021007.html>
Bio-shields for two tsunami-hit villages<http://www.hindu.com/2007/10/08/stories/2007100854120400.htm>
Hindu - Chennai,India
Bio-shields can also be used for carbon sequestration - the process of capturing and storing atmospheric carbon dioxide while releasing oxygen back to the ...
See all stories on this topic<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ncl=http://www.hindu.com/2007/10/08/stories/2007100854120400.htm>
Tampa Electric shelves plans for new energy source<http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2007/10/01/daily46.html>
Bizjournals.com<http://bizjournals.com/> - Charlotte,NC,USA
While technology exists for carbon capture, there remain many uncertainties about carbon sequestration to be resolved before a significant investment like ...
See all stories on this topic<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ncl=http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2007/10/01/daily46.html>
In Obama's world, polluters must pay<http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama8oct08,0,1969576.story?coll=la-home-center>
Los Angeles Times - CA,USA
Some in the utility industry say that so-called carbon- capture and -sequestration technology is a long way from being affordable and reliable enough for ...
See all stories on this topic<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ncl=http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama8oct08,0,1969576.story%3Fcoll%3Dla-home-center>
Google Blogs carbon sequestration
American Power: The Case for an Energetic New Progressive Politics<http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/bookclub/2007/oct/07/american_power_the_case_for_an_energetic_new_progressive_politics>
By Michael Shellenberger
At that price, firms required to reduce their emissions will invest in the least expensive emissions reductions possible, such as burning methane from landfills, purchasing forest land for carbon sequestration, shifting from coal to ...
TPMCafe - TPMCafe Book Club feed - http://www.tpmcafe.com/flexinode/list/8 <http://www.tpmcafe.com/flexinode/list/8>
Cutting the Cost of Watts and Soaking up CO2<http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/cutting-the-cost-of-watts-and-soaking-up-co2.html>
By David Bradley
Carbon sequestration is a well-studied theoretical approach to reduce carbon emissions by locking up carbon dioxide deep in the ground or on the ocean floor in various forms. Whether or not such an approach is tenable in terms of the ...
Sciencebase Science Blog - http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog <http://www.sciencebase.com/science-blog>
A quick look at 'fourth generation' biofuels<http://biopact.com/2007/10/quick-look-at-fourth-generation.html>
By Biopact team(Biopact team)
So CCS applied to biomass allows for an ideal scenario: the production of biomass close to a sequestration site that is far away from inhabited regions (many of these sites have already been identified). The carbon -negative fuel would ...
biopact - http://biopact.com/ <http://biopact.com/>
Saving Extra Wind Energy Underground for Later<http://climateofourfuture.org/saving-extra-wind-energy-underground-for-later/>
By zephyr1
TreeHugger Seemingly taking a page out of carbon sequestration's playbook, a coalition of local facilities in Iowa are working out a scheme to store surplus wind energy by placing it underground. The idea being to keep it safely locked ...
Climate of Our Future - http://climateofourfuture.org <http://climateofourfuture.org/>
Obama's Full Energy Speech: You Want To Pollute? Pay Up<http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/10/obamas_full_energy_speech_you_want_to_pollute_pay_up.php>
By Greg Sargent
Many of these clean energy technologies - from biofuels to solar power to carbon sequestration - are being developed in research labs and facilities all across America at this very moment. The problem is they might never get further ...
Election Central - http://tpmelectioncentral.com/ <http://tpmelectioncentral.com/>
------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael the Archangel
"You can fix all the world's problems in a garden. . . .
Most people don't know that"
FROM
http://www.blog.thesietch.org/wp-content/permaculture.swf<http://www.blog.thesietch.org/wp-content/permaculture.swf>
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