[Terrapreta] Pee AKA human urine

Wed Oct 17 18:19:58 EDT 2007

         to   Terrapreta List       from  Lewis L Smith

Many years ago, I did the economics for the evaluations of several 
projects which used stabilized and dried sewage sludge as one of four 
feeds for a biomass boiler. This sludge came from a fairly ordinary 
industrial sewage-treatment plant nearby, and no special problems were 
envisaged. So here is an alternative to its use as a fertilizer, if one 
finds too many pharmaceuticals in the waste slurry.

[I have forgotten the stabilization process. The principle inputs were 
cane bagasse and Napier grass. ]

-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Someus <edward at terrenum.net>
To: kchisholm at ca.inter.net; dnclayton at wildblue.net; 
adriana at bestenergies.com.au
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Sent: Wed, Oct 17  1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Pee AKA human urine

Dear Kevin,

In Western Europe industrial sewage is not put in into the municipal 
stream (anyway tis is against the law). This is also an pharma issue as 
in fact many people in modern societies consuming much medications. 
This is an slow process and very low levels, but the effects are 
complex and long termed, so the risk is there and can not be predicted.

This issue is rather new, and the EU Commission takes it so seriously 
that investing Hugh money into the fate research. 

I am not convinced that a properly managed Municipal Sewage system is 
much different that "home grown" urine and feces, unless these home 
people are  fully outside of all and any social security, no hospital, 
no medication, and eating only biologically cultivated materials. 

OTHERWISE, the same problem is occurring at intensive animal 
keeping with high medications as well, but not that high magnitude than 
for humans.

Sincerely yours: Edward Someus (environmental engineer)
Terra Humana Clean Technology Engineering Ltd.
(ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 certified organization for scientific research, 
technical development and industrial performance engineering design of 
agro-biotechnological and pyrolysis methods, apparatus and 
applications)

ADDRESS: H-1222 Budapest, Szechenyi 59, Hungary
TEL handy:  +(36-20) 201 7557
TEL / FAX:   +(36-1) 424 0224
TEL SKYPE phone via computer:  Edward Someus
WEB:   www.terrenum.net
-------Original Message-------

From: Douglas Clayton
Date: 2007.10.17. 17:54:27
To: Kevin Chisholm
Cc: 'Terrapreta';  Edward Someus
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Pee AKA human urine

TP Group,

My spouse and I have been applying most of our urine to Zone 1 (gardens
about the house) for 23 years.  Not as a foliar feed, but to the root
zone, diluted or not according to my best judgment at the time.  Not to
root crops or stuff like lettuce.  Corn is a good choice!.  If there is
nothing needing feeding at the moment or I'm just lazy or there's 2
feet of snow on the ground it goes on a compost/mulch pile.  Often I
make garden beds with bales of hay or leaves of bales of hay and just
pour copious amounts of urine on them for a few weeks or months.
Builds incredible soil where here was none.  Have transplanted tomatoes
into still warm bales of hay in early spring.  They love it.  Obviously
scattering charcoal on the ground (along with the rock minerals) before
applying the hay is a strategy worth exploring.

Have been looking for a good unisex urinal solution all these years.  5
gallon bucket has been what we have been using.  Guys, it is easy.
Just pick the bucket up; don't try to hit it.  Females have the harder
task of squatting over or sitting on it, though an old fashioned
chamber pot/ commode is a good solution.  Bidet to storage tank that
overflows to the grey water treatment tank is a solution I have been
considering.  Would give us a bulk storage of diluted urine that could
be tapped into.  My father peed into gallon milk jugs as his collection
technique.

Doug

> Dear Edward
>
> I would GUESS that if the waste products concentrations were serious
> enough, that teh urine donor would soon be dead, and unable to
> contribute much further.
>
> Sewage from a Municipal Sewage system is much different that "home
> grown" urine and feces. For one thing, unused and out-dated 
medications
> are often flushed down teh toilet. For another, industrial wastes sent
> to Municipal sewers can be "endocrine disruptors." I would thus feel
> that "home collected" urine and feces would inherently have less of 
teh
> hazards to which you refer.
>
> However, there are other hazards. For example, e-coli contamination of
> food crops if humanure is not applied properly. As I understand it,
> this
> concern is absent with urine.
>
> Your point about getting valid data is very valid. The fact that such
> concerns can be raised suggests that data is necessary to address 
these
> concerns.
>
> Our North American Culture has big hang-ups about bodily functions. I
> grow beans and apply urine as a nutritional supplement. Most people I
> talk to say "You are not going to eat the beans are you?" Yet, they 
see
> no problem using animal feces as fertilizer. With only urine and
> seaweed, I can grow Pole Beans 20' tall.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
>
> Edward Someus wrote:
>> Do you have info on data for specific targeted investigation of
>> _*endocrine disrupting chemicals, female hormones, and 
pharmaceuticals
>> CONCENTRATED in urine*_ to be used in soil?
>> Endocrine disrupting chemicals, female hormones, and pharmaceuticals
>> in urine is one of the most important problem of the municipal sewage
>> water treatment, and very difficult to handle it.
>> *_These substances are in very low level in the sewage stream_*,
>> difficult to trace, but despite the small amount they are very very
>> dangerous. So far these elements where not a problem, because they
>> where not traced and not detectable, but now the chemistry is more
>> advanced than years ago, and more advanced chemical analytical 
methods
>> are still under development.
>> If *_endocrine disrupting chemicals, female hormones, and
>> pharmaceuticals in urine_* is a huge problem of the municipal sewage
>> water treatment, why should not it be a big problem for soil
>> application at food crop production, not to talk about several other
>> problems with the urine use?
>>
>> Sincerely yours: Edward Someus (environmental engineer)
>> Terra Humana Clean Technology Engineering Ltd.
>> (ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 certified organization for scientific
>> research, technical development and industrial performance 
engineering
>> design of agro-biotechnological and pyrolysis methods, apparatus and
>> applications)
>>
>> ADDRESS: H-1222 Budapest, Szechenyi 59, Hungary
>> TEL handy: +(36-20) 201 7557
>> TEL / FAX: +(36-1) 424 0224
>> TEL SKYPE phone via computer: Edward Someus
>> WEB: www.terrenum.net http://www.terrenum.net/>
>> /-------Original Message-------/
>> /*From:*/ Adriana Downie mailto:adriana at bestenergies.com.au>
>> /*Date:*/ 2007.10.17. 8:59:21
>> /*To:*/ 'Michael Bailes' mailto:michaelangelica at gmail.com>;
>> 'Terrapreta' mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> /*Subject:*/ Re: [Terrapreta] Pee AKA human urine
>>
>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/goinggreen/reusing-water.html
>>
>> Except: In Sweden, a test market in the council of Tanum is recycling
>> urine for use as fertilizer on farms. All new homes in the area are
>> required by law to have special toilets that separate urine and pipe
>> it into a holding tank that farmers access at regular intervals.
>>
>> Experts say this is better for the environment because the special
>> toilets use less water. And less energy is utilized at treatment
>> facilities.
>>
>> Most importantly, human urine has the most concentrated source of
>> phosphorus, which is a vital ingredient in agricultural fertilizer.
>> Tell that to the neighbour with the great lawn.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* Michael Bailes [mailto:michaelangelica at gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 17 October 2007 4:50 PM
>> *To:* Terrapreta
>> *Subject:* [Terrapreta] Pee AKA human urine
>>
>> **Received: **26 September 1994 **Accepted: **23 January 1995
>>
>> Abstract Stored human urine had pH values of 8.9 and was composed of
>> eight main ionic species (> 0.1 meq L^0ƒ21 ), the cations Na, K, NH 
_4 ,
>> Ca and the anions, Cl, SO_4 , PO_4 and HCO_3 . Nitrogen was mainly (>
>> 90%) present as ammoniacal N, with ammonium bicarbonate being the
>> dominant compound. Urea and urate decomposed during storage.
>>
>> Heavy metal concentrations in urine samples were low compared with
>> other organic fertilizers, but copper, mercury, nickel and zinc were
>> 100ƒ2500 times higher in urine than in precipitation and surface 
waters.
>> In a pot experiment with ^15 N labelled human urine, higher gaseous
>> losses and lower crop uptake (barley) of urine N than of labelled
>> ammonium nitrate were found.
>>
>> Phosphorus present in urine was utilized at a higher rate than 
soluble
>> phosphate, showing that urine P is at least as available to crops as
>> soluble P fertilizers.
>>
>> http://www.springerlink.com/content/km386u8967256354/and^32 P-tracer 
-
>> plant nutrients - pot experiment
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael the Archangel
>>
>> "You can fix all the world's problems in a garden. . . .
>> Most people don't know that"
>> FROM
>> http://www.blog.thesietch.org/wp-content/permaculture.swf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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>
>
Douglas Clayton
50 Bullard Rd
Jaffrey, NH  03452
work:  603-532-1120
home: 603-532-7321
fax: 603-532-4581

.
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