[Terrapreta] Praire is natures way of making terra preta.

[Sean K. Barry]

David,

"... obliterated by Christianity and annual agriculture"  <- That seems an apt phrase.

SKB


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Yarrow<mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com> 
  To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
  Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 1:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Praire is natures way of making terra preta.


  in britain and other areas of europem celtic people also cutivated oaks orchards to harvest acorns.  the romans were hughly impressed by the hardy strength of these "primitive" tribes with their daily breakfast of acorn meal gruel.  and the celtic druids were legendary for conducting ceremonies in their sacred oak groves.

  most of this indigenous perennial agro-culture was obliterated by christianity and annual agriculture.

  David Yarrow
  "If yer not forest, yer against us."
  Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
  44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
  dyarrow at nycap.rr.com<mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>
  www.championtrees.org<http://www.championtrees.org/>
  www.OnondagaLakePeaceFestival.org<http://www.onondagalakepeacefestival.org/>
  www.citizenre.com/dyarrow/<http://www.citizenre.com/dyarrow/>
  www.farmandfood.org<http://www.farmandfood.org/>
  www.SeaAgri.com<http://www.seaagri.com/>
   
  "Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times, 
  if one only remembers to turn on the light."  
  -Albus Dumbledore
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: lou gold<mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com> 
    To: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> 
    Cc: bhans at earthmimic.com<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com> ; Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
    Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 11:57 AM
    Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Praire is natures way of making terra preta.


    Yep, there's lots of evidence about the way both nature and indigenous peoples use fire. In the case of people, they also used fire to prevent the forest from reclaiming land where they were cultivating food. For example, it is thought that the Indians of California created the great oak savannas that are now the vineyard country north of San Francisco. Evidently they burned to kill young conifer seedlings which would grow tall and drive out the oaks which were the source of their staple -- acorns. 

    I'm not questioning the role of fire in the complex organic process of creating soils. I was wondering if soils in the Midwest "grew" to great depths as did terra preta in the Amazon? 



    On 9/1/07, Sean K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>> wrote: 
      Hi Lou,

      I agree with Gerrit on this.  An when Brian says prairie is addicted to fire, I think that is right , too.  It has been clear for 30+ years now that the prairie/the steppes had contained the most fertile soil, because they contained the highest levels of soil organic carbon.
      Sustained agriculture and permi-culture have been pushing for as many years for "no-till' and "low-till' (chisel plow vs mold board plow) agriculture.  There has already been an attempt made to educate agriculture that not disturbing the carbon in the soil made it so the fertility of that soil maintained or even grew, rather than declined.

      The clinker in that plan is that it takes patience and the kind of waste management stewardship that industrial agriculture won't do.  Productivity demands "juicing up" the soils faster, getting more yield out of them right now, not 30 years down the road.  It demands the least handling of wastes as is economically possible.  Just push it aside enough to exploit the soil more.  Waste is viewed all over the world as troublesome to deal with, so deal with it the least amount possible.

      The sick part of all this is that government subsidies pay for productivity and productivity increases.  The government reduces payments when productivity falls off or stops for a while.  If you are a struggling farmer, what would you do?

      Regards,

      SKB
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Gerald Van Koeverden<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca> 
        To: lou gold<mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com> 
        Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; bhans at earthmimic.com<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com> 
        Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 9:33 AM
        Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Praire is natures way of making terra preta.


        lou, 


        Glacial deposits are not soil...they are piles of ground up rock and gravel.  Soils are what develop on them over time, and how nature does that is what we are interested in.


        gerrit


        On 1-Sep-07, at 9:56 AM, lou gold wrote:


          Yes, very interesting suggestion. I also have been wondering about the role of fire (natural and managed) in building soils in both forest and grassland ecologies.

          I not sure where you are located but,  if you are speaking about the deep soils of the US Midwest, they were mostly deposited by glacial scraping of the lands to the north. Unlike, the Amazonian dark earths they did not grow on site. 

          lou


          On 9/1/07, Brian Hans <bhans at earthmimic.com<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com>> wrote: 
            I have been musing about this statement for a while now. As far as I know, Ive coined it. 

            I think the hypothesis speaks for itself. After doing native restorations, mostly prairies for over 10 years, bio-char in small dose y/y seems quite likely to aid in the production of the luscious prairie soils 6ft+ deep. Infact, the prairie ecosystem is literally addicted to fire so bio-char is inevitable. I am going to bring this topic up to some of my prairie academics this fall but I was curious as to what the group thought?   

            Brian Hans

            _______________________________________________
            Terrapreta mailing list
            Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/ <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/>
            http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org<http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
            http://info.bioenergylists.org<http://info.bioenergylists.org/>



          _______________________________________________
          Terrapreta mailing list
          Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/>
          http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org <http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
          http://info.bioenergylists.org<http://info.bioenergylists.org/>


        _______________________________________________
        Terrapreta mailing list
        Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/>
        http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org <http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
        http://info.bioenergylists.org<http://info.bioenergylists.org/>




----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    Terrapreta mailing list
    Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
    http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
    http://info.bioenergylists.org
  _______________________________________________
  Terrapreta mailing list
  Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
  http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
  http://info.bioenergylists.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/terrapreta_bioenergylists.org/attachments/20070901/f98b37db/attachment.html