[Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi Nat,

How about that?  So they do compete for a time and they both win out (for a time)?  Low C/N?  Does C/N mean carbon to nitrogen ratio?  Do you mean sawdust has high C/N (low nitrogen)?

SKB


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Nat Tuivavalagi<mailto:ntuivavalagi at cmi.edu> 
  To: 'Sean K. Barry'<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> ; bhans at earthmimic.com<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com> ; 'Gerald Van Koeverden'<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca> 
  Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:55 PM
  Subject: RE: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question


  Hi SKB,

   

  Thanks for sharing.

   

  I agree that competition between microorganism and plants is not usually obvious.  However, this competition could be readily seen when we add "poor" (actually low C/N) organic matter (eg sawdust) to our soil/crop.  Instead of becoming green and healthy, the crop actually becomes yellowish and sickly - as amount of N in soil/organic-matter is not adequate for both microorganism and crop.  Yes the microorganisms win (at least at the beginning).  However, the microorganisms will die out and the crop will benefit from these dead and decaying materials - hence the yellowish-ness is only temporary.

   

  Cheers

  Nat

   

   

   

   

   

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Sean K. Barry
  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:13 AM
  To: bhans at earthmimic.com; Gerald Van Koeverden
  Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question

   

  Hi Gerrit,

   

  Both soil microorganisms and plants grow better in "fertile" soil.  It does not appear that they "compete" for the same things in the soil, though.  How could they?  Microorganisms would always win out (I would think, being closer to the feast) and plants would not survive in the soil (starvation brought on by 200,000,000 "wee beasties" per centimeter gobbling all the eats).

   

  It has been mentioned several times in these past few posts and I think it was well known before any of us said this, that microorganisms thrive on carbohydrates (which plants can provide).  Also, the microorganisms deliver to the roots of the plants, those nutrients that the plants need to survive.

   

  It has been mentioned by others on this list before, too, that there are "symbiotic" relationships between plants growing in soil and soil microorganisms in that soil, where soil microorganisms provide nutrients for plants in exchange for a little sugar (e.g. Vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal (VAM) fungi).  Dr. Karve, again, has also mentioned these symbiotic relationships; plants that exude sugar from their roots and leaf tips, to "feed" the soil microbes in the soil below them.

   

  Brian Hans said "it's dark down there".  Well, he's right.  Soil microbes do not photosynthesize carbohydrates because they are not bathed in sunlight.  They cannot make their own nutrition from plant nutrients (C HOPKINS CaFé Mgr).  Likewise, terrestrial plants do not decompose soil organic matter themselves and make the nutrients in the soil available to themselves.  Plants use sunlight to make sugars and cellulose from carbondioxide and water.  Soil microbes decompose SOM and they do this the entire time they live in soil.  

   

  Soil is an ECOSYSTEM.  No single type of organism can survive alone for any length of time, without there being others there, too, to help.

   

  Industrial Agriculture has ignored this graceful, well-developed, symbiosis between soil and plants.  All we have ever done with industrial fertilizers is feed the nutrients to the plants and ignore the soil's living parts.  This has to stop!  We are killing the organisms living in and on agricultural soil around the planet from the ground up.  We continue to ignore soil at our greatest peril.

   

   

  Regards,

   

  SKB

   

   

  ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Gerald Van Koeverden<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca> 

    To: bhans at earthmimic.com<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com> 

    Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 

    Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 5:11 PM

    Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question

     

    Short-term perhaps, but if those sugars provide the initial impetus for such mircoflora to throughly colonize those charcoal particles, then very good things could result...??  All soil scientists know that 200,000,000 organisms live in a cubic centimeter of fertile soil, but none of them really understand the dynamics of their nutrient relationships...its way too complicated and thus rather unpredictable. 

     

    gerald

     

     

    On 11-Sep-07, at 6:00 PM, Brian Hans wrote:





    Sugar is the energy currency of soil flora. This makes sense because autotrophs utilize the sun and ofc...its dark down there so its not like they can fix their own energy from the sun. I would also suspect what PurNrg is implying...that residual sugars increase soil flora but only as a temp. shot in the arm. This is only a short term shot and not a long term affect. 

     

    Brian Hans 

    PurNrg at aol.com<mailto:PurNrg at aol.com> wrote:


      In a message dated 9/11/07 5:07:24 PM, jon.frank at aglabs.com<mailto:jon.frank at aglabs.com> writes:





      The only thing he spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered through it.



      This would lead me to wonder whether there was not a lot of residual sugar in the charcoal from said syrup, which would definitely be a different thing than JUST charcoal. As we've read earlier in this discussion, the sugar promotes a massive, temporary bloom all all sorts of soil critters. This bloom and it's associated activities could well be responsible for using up easily available soil nutrients, making them less available to plants in an immediate sense. Then, when the sugar has been consumed, there is the die off of many of the extra critters and their decomposition releases all those nutrients again in a form readily available to the plants.

      Peter :-)>


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