[Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
Nikolaus Foidl
nfoidl at desa.com.bo
Tue Sep 11 21:29:36 EDT 2007
Dear all!
Its mere philosophic issue if the land is degraded or not, the important
issue is does it still produce to feed the owner of the land, is the actual
use economically positive for the owner. Then we can think about improving
the economics of this actual use by improving the quality of the soil and
hence the productivity. All these people do not have much of a choice , they
get the land from there ancestors and have to live and economically survive
in a given economic environment. If you lose just on 3 or 5 % of your costs
per acre production in 3 or 4 years you are negative in there economic
result.
As bigger the farms get as better they survive ( economic of scale) but less
technological sound alternatives are available. I work for 14.000 ha Farm
who produces 2 to 3 crops a year under very calculated rotating conditions
where we try to keep organic matter over 3.5 % but our window of
alternatives is very small and if we commit an slight error we are done. In
our area the economic size starts with over 2000 ha , below you have no
chance to survive. So please less of moral lessons and more of sound
practical but as well economical solutions for a way out of the mess we all
are in at the moment. Nature itself does not care, we care and its a very
subjective definition of good or bad. Well I live in BOLIVIA WHERE THERE ARE
NO RESCUE PLANS FOR BROKE FARMERS LIKE IN THE STATES.
Best regards Nikolaus
P.S. We are doing 5 ha trials with 40 tons of charcoal adding per ha in
Maize, soy and sunflower , in one year we will have some results to tell,
but now its all pure speculation.
On 9/11/07 5:40 PM, "terrapreta-request at bioenergylists.org"
<terrapreta-request at bioenergylists.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Ron Larson)
> 2. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Gerald Van Koeverden)
> 3. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Sean K. Barry)
> 4. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Sean K. Barry)
> 5. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Sean K. Barry)
> 6. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Kevin Chisholm)
> 7. Re: manure biochar N-P-K question (Nat Tuivavalagi)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:05:23 -0600
> From: "Ron Larson" <rongretlarson at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
> To: "Jon C. Frank" <jon.frank at aglabs.com>, "Terrapreta"
> <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Message-ID: <004f01c7f4bf$da9afdf0$6400a8c0 at Laptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Jon:
>
> You have described something that is approaching true commercial scale.
> Could you ask this "customer" at what price he would be willing to buy similar
> char? Need to ask with various assumptions on what happens to productivity in
> out-years - including the option that there would be no diminution in
> production.
>
> Any way of estimating how much the value of the land has increased?
>
> I wonder also whether he has a way of measuring the soil carbon content -
> whether he can see any new growth of bacteria and fungus. Does the soil look
> and feel a good bit different?
>
> Thanks for a very helpful report.
>
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jon C. Frank
> To: Terrapreta
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 1:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>
>
> One additional point. We have a customer who has access to large quantities
> of charcoal powder that was used by industry as a filtration product for
> syrup. This product has pyrogenic characteristics so is difficult to market.
>
> To prove a point at how effective it is in soil restoration he bought an
> extremely sandy field on the river bottom of the Mississippi River. He
> applied 15-20 tons of this product per acre and plowed it into the soil. He
> saw tremendous visual difference in the plants and in the root growth as
> compared to his neighbor with whom he shared part of the pivot for irrigation.
> When looking at roots that encountered chunks of this charcoal powder the
> roots would explode with massive growth inside the chunk of charcoal powder.
>
> The conclusion of this farmer was that adding large quantities of charcoal
> powder increased the need for nitrogen on corn. I suspect this might also be
> the case with biochar, at least in the first year after application. I wonder
> if biochar made from manure would significantly slow the release of NPK as
> compared to using the manure fresh. I believe so but have no data to back up
> my beliefs. Kind of hard to get bio charred manure around our area. :)
>
> Jon C. Frank
> www.aglabs.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org]On Behalf Of Adriana Downie
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:55 PM
> To: 'James Oliver'; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>
>
> Hi James,
>
>
>
> It very much depends on the temperature and processing conditions.
> Generally the P and K will stay with the char, you will loose some nitrogen
> but if you keep the temperature below 400C you will keep a significant amount
> of it. The availability of the NPK in the char also changes significantly with
> process conditions.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Adriana Downie
>
> BEST Energies Australia
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Oliver [mailto:jwogdn at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, 10 September 2007 11:16 PM
> To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Subject: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>
>
>
> I have seen discussion of turning manure into biochar. Is the N-P-K
> retained in the biochar if manure is used as feed stock?
>
>
>
> JW
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
> Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:11:05 -0400
> From: Gerald Van Koeverden <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
> To: bhans at earthmimic.com
> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID: <A4866D01-FCF5-4676-92BB-E9C76BA23BAA at yahoo.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Short-term perhaps, but if those sugars provide the initial impetus
> for such mircoflora to throughly colonize those charcoal particles,
> then very good things could result...?? All soil scientists know
> that 200,000,000 organisms live in a cubic centimeter of fertile
> soil, but none of them really understand the dynamics of their
> nutrient relationships...its way too complicated and thus rather
> unpredictable.
>
> gerald
>
>
> On 11-Sep-07, at 6:00 PM, Brian Hans wrote:
>
>> Sugar is the energy currency of soil flora. This makes sense
>> because autotrophs utilize the sun and ofc...its dark down there so
>> its not like they can fix their own energy from the sun. I would
>> also suspect what PurNrg is implying...that residual sugars
>> increase soil flora but only as a temp. shot in the arm. This is
>> only a short term shot and not a long term affect.
>>
>> Brian Hans
>>
>> PurNrg at aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 9/11/07 5:07:24 PM, jon.frank at aglabs.com writes:
>>
>>
>>> The only thing he spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered
>>> through it.
>>
>>
>> This would lead me to wonder whether there was not a lot of
>> residual sugar in the charcoal from said syrup, which would
>> definitely be a different thing than JUST charcoal. As we've read
>> earlier in this discussion, the sugar promotes a massive, temporary
>> bloom all all sorts of soil critters. This bloom and it's
>> associated activities could well be responsible for using up easily
>> available soil nutrients, making them less available to plants in
>> an immediate sense. Then, when the sugar has been consumed, there
>> is the die off of many of the extra critters and their
>> decomposition releases all those nutrients again in a form readily
>> available to the plants.
>>
>> Peter :-)>
>>
>>
>> **************************************
>> See what's new at http://www.aol.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Terrapreta mailing list
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> http://bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:19:47 -0500
> From: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
> To: <bhans at earthmimic.com>, <Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Message-ID: <AABDQQFEEAGEHVJS at smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Brian & 'terrapreta' group,
>
> Yes, I have read too, that only the combination of fertilizer and charcoal
> increases yield. The benefit with the charcoal amendment in later years,
> appears to be because of its ability to help the soil retain the nutrients it
> has or is given better than without the charcoal. I think this is a
> synergistic action between the charcoal in the soil and the soil
> microorganisms inhabiting the soil. This facet of Terra Preta soil is being
> researched in several places, even by people in this group. It needs further
> verification (if it is indeed true) and more research in many more different
> types of soil.
>
> This is an important question for "Terra Preta Nova". The positive answer
> will bring a measurable benefit to those trying to sell or use charcoal
> amendments in soil for remediation of soil problems. There are indications
> that it is true; I believe Christoph Steiner's paper all but said that
> charcoal increased the soils ability to hold nutrients better after four
> years. I believe Adriana from BEST has also said very recently, that their
> research has indicated this, too. The mere existence of still fertile soils
> in the Amazon rain basin, some 2500 years after they were initially amended
> with charcoal speaks to the possibility that charcoal brings "nutritive
> resilience" to soils.
>
> Some in here may not be from Missouri, but the "Show Me" about what charcoal
> can really do for soil in the out years is still cooking.
> I think Christelle Braun's idea about the TP database could well help bring
> this information to the requesters here, much faster than the two years or so
> that it has taken me to glean this from my reading.
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian Hans<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com>
> To: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 4:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>
>
> Group,
>
> The gov. doesnt regulate charcoal at all as far as I see. Im curious how
> they would classify the char when its an industrial waste tho...
>
> Specifically to the N issue. Simply, more corn = more fixed N. Additionally,
> more soil biomass = more fixed N. Just by adding char, we cannot assume that N
> magically appears. The reason we need to add N to a field of char'ed soil is
> that growth is going to increase and that will need more N to facilitate that
> increased biomass production.
>
> Im not sure why char will specifically increase N fixing bac's, to assume
> that is the case is wild speculation that is likely unfounded. In a lit.
> search...char and fertilizer additions always go hand in hand for the reasons
> I stated above. Infact the lit. is ripe with reports that only the combo of
> ferts AND char yield an increase in yields.
>
> A point specifically to Adriana, you mentioned that your char "if you keep
> the temperature below 400C you will keep a significant amount of it
> [Nitrogen]" Im curious as to what state that N is in? Im having a hard time
> understanding how much of the N doesnt oxydize at that temp. In this
> case...even tho the char may be holding some of the N...its in an NOx state
> and thus useless to the plant.
>
> Brian Hans
>
>
> "Jon C. Frank" <jon.frank at aglabs.com> wrote:
> Hi Gerrit,
>
> I don't think the government was involved at all. The only thing he
> spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered through it. It was spread with a
> regular manure spreader.
>
> I agree with your thoughts on nitrogen. Additionally the carbon could
> provide room and board to N-fixing bacteria and could possibly reduce the need
> even further. But on corn I would be very careful reducing the N too far or
> it could lead to poor yield.
>
> Jon
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gerald Van Koeverden [mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:00 PM
> To: Jon C. Frank
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>
>
> Jon,
>
>
> I'm curious how your client was able to spread this industrial waste on
> his soil. Did he have to get some kind of governmental clearance first? Or
> has this material been classified as safe for farmland? I want to know just
> in case I can find similar waste here. I would love to spread it on my land.
>
>
> Gerrit
>
>
>
>
> On 11-Sep-07, at 3:19 PM, Jon C. Frank wrote:
>
>
> One additional point. We have a customer who has access to large
> quantities of charcoal powder that was used by industry as a filtration
> product for syrup. This product has pyrogenic characteristics so is difficult
> to market.
>
> To prove a point at how effective it is in soil restoration he bought
> an extremely sandy field on the river bottom of the Mississippi River. He
> applied 15-20 tons of this product per acre and plowed it into the soil. He
> saw tremendous visual difference in the plants and in the root growth as
> compared to his neighbor with whom he shared part of the pivot for irrigation.
> When looking at roots that encountered chunks of this charcoal powder the
> roots would explode with massive growth inside the chunk of charcoal powder.
>
> The conclusion of this farmer was that adding large quantities of
> charcoal powder increased the need for nitrogen on corn. I suspect this might
> also be the case with biochar, at least in the first year after application.
> I wonder if biochar made from manure would significantly slow the release of
> NPK as compared to using the manure fresh. I believe so but have no data to
> back up my beliefs. Kind of hard to get bio charred manure around our area.
> :)
>
> Jon C. Frank
> www.aglabs.com<http://www.aglabs.com/>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioene
> rgylists.org>]On Behalf Of Adriana Downie
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 5:55 PM
> To: 'James Oliver';
> terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>
>
> Hi James,
> It very much depends on the temperature and processing conditions.
> Generally the P and K will stay with the char, you will loose some nitrogen
> but if you keep the temperature below 400C you will keep a significant amount
> of it. The availability of the NPK in the char also changes significantly with
> process conditions.
> Regards,
> Adriana Downie
> BEST Energies Australia
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Oliver
> [mailto:jwogdn at yahoo.com<mailto:jwogdn at yahoo.com>]
> Sent: Monday, 10 September 2007 11:16 PM
> To:
> terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
> I have seen discussion of turning manure into biochar. Is the N-P-K
> retained in the biochar if manure is used as feed stock?
> JW
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your
> story.
> Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48224/*http:/sims.yahoo.com/>
> _______________________________________________
> Terrapreta mailing list
> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/<http:
> //bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/terrapreta_bioenergylists.org>
>
> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org<http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
> http://info.bioenergylists.org<http://info.bioenergylists.org/>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Terrapreta mailing list
> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
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> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
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> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:41:16 -0500
> From: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
> To: <bhans at earthmimic.com>, <Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Message-ID: <AABDQQGNNA6P3WZA at smtpout05.dca.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> Sugar alone can bloom the soil micro-flora. There is a lab test, used by soil
> science researchers that makes use of this. It increases soil "respiration"
> rates, which is an indication of increased living microorganism activity. Dr.
> A.D. Karve (in this group), from India, has claimed that this is very
> important. Even to the point where "sugar" is the sole amendment, no
> fertilizers required. But, sugar with charcoal? Now that could be a
> different, perhaps more long-lived, effect than charcoal alone. Maybe the
> charcoal can buffer the soil pH, increasing Cation Exchange Capacity? Maybe
> the carbon in the charcoal can catalyze the decomposition of organic matter
> into plant available nutrients? Maybe the porous nature of the charcoal holds
> more water and provides a "safe haven" for soil microorganisms to grow into
> and stay, set up shop as it were, etc?
>
> These are all, I believe, very "fertile groud" (pun intended) for Terra Preta
> research. It does look promising, so far. So, we just need to get more
> people excited about doing this kind of research.
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian Hans<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com>
> To: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>
>
> Sugar is the energy currency of soil flora. This makes sense because
> autotrophs utilize the sun and ofc...its dark down there so its not like they
> can fix their own energy from the sun. I would also suspect what PurNrg is
> implying...that residual sugars increase soil flora but only as a temp. shot
> in the arm. This is only a short term shot and not a long term affect.
>
> Brian Hans
>
> PurNrg at aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/11/07 5:07:24 PM, jon.frank at aglabs.com writes:
>
>
>
> The only thing he spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered through
> it.
>
>
>
> This would lead me to wonder whether there was not a lot of residual sugar
> in the charcoal from said syrup, which would definitely be a different thing
> than JUST charcoal. As we've read earlier in this discussion, the sugar
> promotes a massive, temporary bloom all all sorts of soil critters. This bloom
> and it's associated activities could well be responsible for using up easily
> available soil nutrients, making them less available to plants in an immediate
> sense. Then, when the sugar has been consumed, there is the die off of many of
> the extra critters and their decomposition releases all those nutrients again
> in a form readily available to the plants.
>
> Peter :-)>
>
>
> **************************************
> See what's new at http://www.aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> Terrapreta mailing list
> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Terrapreta mailing list
> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
> http://info.bioenergylists.org
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:13:27 -0500
> From: "Sean K. Barry" <sean.barry at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
> To: <bhans at earthmimic.com>, "Gerald Van Koeverden" <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID: <AABDQQJJZAQA8QUA at smtp04.lax.untd.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Gerrit,
>
> Both soil microorganisms and plants grow better in "fertile" soil. It does
> not appear that they "compete" for the same things in the soil, though. How
> could they? Microorganisms would always win out (I would think, being closer
> to the feast) and plants would not survive in the soil (starvation brought on
> by 200,000,000 "wee beasties" per centimeter gobbling all the eats).
>
> It has been mentioned several times in these past few posts and I think it was
> well known before any of us said this, that microorganisms thrive on
> carbohydrates (which plants can provide). Also, the microorganisms deliver to
> the roots of the plants, those nutrients that the plants need to survive.
>
> It has been mentioned by others on this list before, too, that there are
> "symbiotic" relationships between plants growing in soil and soil
> microorganisms in that soil, where soil microorganisms provide nutrients for
> plants in exchange for a little sugar (e.g. Vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal
> (VAM) fungi). Dr. Karve, again, has also mentioned these symbiotic
> relationships; plants that exude sugar from their roots and leaf tips, to
> "feed" the soil microbes in the soil below them.
>
> Brian Hans said "it's dark down there". Well, he's right. Soil microbes do
> not photosynthesize carbohydrates because they are not bathed in sunlight.
> They cannot make their own nutrition from plant nutrients (C HOPKINS CaF?
> Mgr). Likewise, terrestrial plants do not decompose soil organic matter
> themselves and make the nutrients in the soil available to themselves. Plants
> use sunlight to make sugars and cellulose from carbondioxide and water. Soil
> microbes decompose SOM and they do this the entire time they live in soil.
>
> Soil is an ECOSYSTEM. No single type of organism can survive alone for any
> length of time, without there being others there, too, to help.
>
> Industrial Agriculture has ignored this graceful, well-developed, symbiosis
> between soil and plants. All we have ever done with industrial fertilizers is
> feed the nutrients to the plants and ignore the soil's living parts. This has
> to stop! We are killing the organisms living in and on agricultural soil
> around the planet from the ground up. We continue to ignore soil at our
> greatest peril.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gerald Van Koeverden<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> To: bhans at earthmimic.com<mailto:bhans at earthmimic.com>
> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 5:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>
>
> Short-term perhaps, but if those sugars provide the initial impetus for such
> mircoflora to throughly colonize those charcoal particles, then very good
> things could result...?? All soil scientists know that 200,000,000 organisms
> live in a cubic centimeter of fertile soil, but none of them really understand
> the dynamics of their nutrient relationships...its way too complicated and
> thus rather unpredictable.
>
>
> gerald
>
>
>
>
> On 11-Sep-07, at 6:00 PM, Brian Hans wrote:
>
>
> Sugar is the energy currency of soil flora. This makes sense because
> autotrophs utilize the sun and ofc...its dark down there so its not like they
> can fix their own energy from the sun. I would also suspect what PurNrg is
> implying...that residual sugars increase soil flora but only as a temp. shot
> in the arm. This is only a short term shot and not a long term affect.
>
> Brian Hans
>
> PurNrg at aol.com<mailto:PurNrg at aol.com> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/11/07 5:07:24 PM,
> jon.frank at aglabs.com<mailto:jon.frank at aglabs.com> writes:
>
>
>
> The only thing he spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered through
> it.
>
>
>
> This would lead me to wonder whether there was not a lot of residual
> sugar in the charcoal from said syrup, which would definitely be a different
> thing than JUST charcoal. As we've read earlier in this discussion, the sugar
> promotes a massive, temporary bloom all all sorts of soil critters. This bloom
> and it's associated activities could well be responsible for using up easily
> available soil nutrients, making them less available to plants in an immediate
> sense. Then, when the sugar has been consumed, there is the die off of many of
> the extra critters and their decomposition releases all those nutrients again
> in a form readily available to the plants.
>
> Peter :-)>
>
>
> **************************************
> See what's new at http://www.aol.com<http://www.aol.com/>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:18:22 -0300
> From: Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
> To: "Jon C. Frank" <jon.frank at aglabs.com>
> Cc: Terrapreta <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> Message-ID: <46E7223E.50109 at ca.inter.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Dear Jon
>
> It might be that the charcoal per se had a minor role in the flush of
> growth... is it possible that impurities that were filtered from the
> syrup acted as plant nutrients? Is it possible that residual sugar on
> the syrup gave a boost to soil bacteria, as is advocated by AD Karve?
>
> Jon C. Frank wrote:
>> Hi Gerrit,
>>
>> I don't think the government was involved at all. The only thing he
>> spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered through it. It was spread
>> with a regular manure spreader.
>>
>> I agree with your thoughts on nitrogen. Additionally the carbon could
>> provide room and board to N-fixing bacteria and could possibly reduce
>> the need even further. But on corn I would be very careful reducing the
>> N too far or it could lead to poor yield.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:* Gerald Van Koeverden [mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:00 PM
>> *To:* Jon C. Frank
>> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>
>> Jon,
>>
>> I'm curious how your client was able to spread this industrial waste
>> on his soil. Did he have to get some kind of governmental clearance
>> first? Or has this material been classified as safe for farmland?
>> I want to know just in case I can find similar waste here. I would
>> love to spread it on my land.
>>
>> Gerrit
>>
>>
>> On 11-Sep-07, at 3:19 PM, Jon C. Frank wrote:
>>
>>> One additional point. We have a customer who has access to large
>>> quantities of charcoal powder that was used by industry as a
>>> filtration product for syrup. This product has pyrogenic
>>> characteristics so is difficult to market.
>>>
>>> To prove a point at how effective it is in soil restoration he
>>> bought an extremely sandy field on the river bottom of the
>>> Mississippi River. He applied 15-20 tons of this product per
>>> acre and plowed it into the soil. He saw tremendous visual
>>> difference in the plants and in the root growth as compared to his
>>> neighbor with whom he shared part of the pivot for irrigation.
>>> When looking at roots that encountered chunks of this charcoal
>>> powder the roots would explode with massive growth inside the
>>> chunk of charcoal powder.
>>>
>>> The conclusion of this farmer was that adding large quantities of
>>> charcoal powder increased the need for nitrogen on corn. I
>>> suspect this might also be the case with biochar, at least in the
>>> first year after application. I wonder if biochar made from
>>> manure would significantly slow the release of NPK as compared to
>>> using the manure fresh. I believe so but have no data to back up
>>> my beliefs. Kind of hard to get bio charred manure around our
>>> area. :)
>>>
>>> Jon C. Frank
>>> www.aglabs.com <http://www.aglabs.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> *From:* terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
>>> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org]*On Behalf Of
>>> *Adriana Downie
>>> *Sent:* Monday, September 10, 2007 5:55 PM
>>> *To:* 'James Oliver'; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>>
>>> Hi James,
>>>
>>> It very much depends on the temperature and processing
>>> conditions. Generally the P and K will stay with the char, you
>>> will loose some nitrogen but if you keep the temperature below
>>> 400C you will keep a significant amount of it. The
>>> availability of the NPK in the char also changes significantly
>>> with process conditions.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Adriana Downie
>>>
>>> BEST Energies Australia
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> *From:* James Oliver [mailto:jwogdn at yahoo.com]
>>> *Sent:* Monday, 10 September 2007 11:16 PM
>>> *To:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>>> *Subject:* [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>>>
>>> I have seen discussion of turning manure into biochar. Is the
>>> N-P-K retained in the biochar if manure is used as feed stock?
>>>
>>> JW
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life,
>>> your story.
>>> Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48224/*http:/sims.yahoo.com/>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Terrapreta mailing list
>>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
>>> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
>>> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Terrapreta mailing list
>> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
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>> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:55:17 +1200
> From: "Nat Tuivavalagi" <ntuivavalagi at cmi.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
> To: "'Sean K. Barry'" <sean.barry at juno.com>, <bhans at earthmimic.com>,
> "'Gerald Van Koeverden'" <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Message-ID: <003701c7f4cf$348f4280$b30010ac at cmi.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi SKB,
>
>
>
> Thanks for sharing.
>
>
>
> I agree that competition between microorganism and plants is not usually
> obvious. However, this competition could be readily seen when we add ?poor?
> (actually low C/N) organic matter (eg sawdust) to our soil/crop. Instead of
> becoming green and healthy, the crop actually becomes yellowish and sickly ?
> as amount of N in soil/organic-matter is not adequate for both microorganism
> and crop. Yes the microorganisms win (at least at the beginning). However,
> the microorganisms will die out and the crop will benefit from these dead
> and decaying materials ? hence the yellowish-ness is only temporary.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Nat
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Sean K. Barry
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:13 AM
> To: bhans at earthmimic.com; Gerald Van Koeverden
> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>
>
>
> Hi Gerrit,
>
>
>
> Both soil microorganisms and plants grow better in "fertile" soil. It does
> not appear that they "compete" for the same things in the soil, though. How
> could they? Microorganisms would always win out (I would think, being
> closer to the feast) and plants would not survive in the soil (starvation
> brought on by 200,000,000 "wee beasties" per centimeter gobbling all the
> eats).
>
>
>
> It has been mentioned several times in these past few posts and I think it
> was well known before any of us said this, that microorganisms thrive on
> carbohydrates (which plants can provide). Also, the microorganisms deliver
> to the roots of the plants, those nutrients that the plants need to survive.
>
>
>
> It has been mentioned by others on this list before, too, that there are
> "symbiotic" relationships between plants growing in soil and soil
> microorganisms in that soil, where soil microorganisms provide nutrients for
> plants in exchange for a little sugar (e.g. Vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal
> (VAM) fungi). Dr. Karve, again, has also mentioned these symbiotic
> relationships; plants that exude sugar from their roots and leaf tips, to
> "feed" the soil microbes in the soil below them.
>
>
>
> Brian Hans said "it's dark down there". Well, he's right. Soil microbes do
> not photosynthesize carbohydrates because they are not bathed in sunlight.
> They cannot make their own nutrition from plant nutrients (C HOPKINS CaF?
> Mgr). Likewise, terrestrial plants do not decompose soil organic matter
> themselves and make the nutrients in the soil available to themselves.
> Plants use sunlight to make sugars and cellulose from carbondioxide and
> water. Soil microbes decompose SOM and they do this the entire time they
> live in soil.
>
>
>
> Soil is an ECOSYSTEM. No single type of organism can survive alone for any
> length of time, without there being others there, too, to help.
>
>
>
> Industrial Agriculture has ignored this graceful, well-developed, symbiosis
> between soil and plants. All we have ever done with industrial fertilizers
> is feed the nutrients to the plants and ignore the soil's living parts.
> This has to stop! We are killing the organisms living in and on
> agricultural soil around the planet from the ground up. We continue to
> ignore soil at our greatest peril.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> SKB
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Gerald <mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca> Van Koeverden
>
> To: bhans at earthmimic.com
>
> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 5:11 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] manure biochar N-P-K question
>
>
>
> Short-term perhaps, but if those sugars provide the initial impetus for such
> mircoflora to throughly colonize those charcoal particles, then very good
> things could result...?? All soil scientists know that 200,000,000
> organisms live in a cubic centimeter of fertile soil, but none of them
> really understand the dynamics of their nutrient relationships...its way too
> complicated and thus rather unpredictable.
>
>
>
> gerald
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11-Sep-07, at 6:00 PM, Brian Hans wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Sugar is the energy currency of soil flora. This makes sense because
> autotrophs utilize the sun and ofc...its dark down there so its not like
> they can fix their own energy from the sun. I would also suspect what PurNrg
> is implying...that residual sugars increase soil flora but only as a temp.
> shot in the arm. This is only a short term shot and not a long term affect.
>
>
>
> Brian Hans
>
> PurNrg at aol.com wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 9/11/07 5:07:24 PM, jon.frank at aglabs.com writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> The only thing he spread was charcoal that had syrup filtered through it.
>
>
>
> This would lead me to wonder whether there was not a lot of residual sugar
> in the charcoal from said syrup, which would definitely be a different thing
> than JUST charcoal. As we've read earlier in this discussion, the sugar
> promotes a massive, temporary bloom all all sorts of soil critters. This
> bloom and it's associated activities could well be responsible for using up
> easily available soil nutrients, making them less available to plants in an
> immediate sense. Then, when the sugar has been consumed, there is the die
> off of many of the extra critters and their decomposition releases all those
> nutrients again in a form readily available to the plants.
>
> Peter :-)>
>
>
> **************************************
> See what's new at http://www.aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> Terrapreta mailing list
> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
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>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
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