[Terrapreta] You Are What You Grow

Fri Sep 14 00:35:38 EDT 2007

Sean,

You're dreaming, though I would like to dream with you.  But local  
realities keep bringing me down...

And then there's the economics...WIth bio-char at less than 1/5th the  
density of limestone, do you realize what this one single fact does  
to the costs/ton of transporting and applying charcoal to the soil,  
much less the cost of charcoal itself??  And we still have absolutely  
no hard data yet on the yield increases that accrue from how much  
biochar/acre...it would be interesting to figure that out right  
now...how much of a yield increase or savings in fertilizer costs  
(plus how much 'subsidy'  through carbon credits) would a farmer have  
to get to justify the costs at different rates/acre?  We could at  
least work out a rough figure for that.

Carbon credits:    ???
Char costs:  I think earlier I read something like $200/ton;  (that's  
about 60 bushels of corn already)
Transportation:  for costs/ton, find out the cost of trucking  
limestone, and multiply that rate/mile by 5 or 6 for the distance to  
your nearest pyrolysis plant.
Spreading:  for every ton of char, multiply the cost of spreading one  
ton of manure by 4 (since manure is very watery it has a density  
close to water.)

The economics are scary.  Besides that, my neighbour has a huge  
manure spreader, and he can't even get his neighours to pay him $25/ 
spreader for the cost of both the chicken manure and spreading it!

Gerrit

On 13-Sep-07, at 7:04 PM, Sean K. Barry wrote:

> Hi Jon,
>
> Government subsidies that keep prices low is truly a problem for  
> farmers.  It is not a problem for consumers (yet?) and I think the  
> fertilizer manufacturers and dealers actually eat it up.  Clearly,  
> corn growers are hooked on subsidies and fertilizer.  Just ask any  
> corn grower if he wants to try it this year without industrial  
> fertilizer.  Oh yes, but you do know the answer to this, don't  
> you.   Corn is "THE" cash crop.  Ethanol has driven prices up.  The  
> subsidies support the ethanol manufacturers.  And they turn around  
> an "beg" for local farmers to grow and sell corn to the the  
> distilleries.  This is ramping up.  You know it, too.  You will  
> sell fertilizer to the corn growers and/or scare the hell out of  
> them by telling them that they will go bankrupt if they do not buy  
> (and you would likely be right).
>
> I would like to ask if you would think about some things.  If it is  
> possible that charcoal in soil will help soil retain its plant  
> nutrients, then this will eventually mean that you will sell LESS  
> fertilizer to your customers who use charcoal amendments to their  
> fields.  This may at first seem like a threat to your business.   
> Nonetheless, do you realize that you could possibly parley this  
> into "providing your customers BETTER service"?  What farmer would  
> not be grateful, if you could show him a way that he will need less  
> fertilizer from you next year than this year?!  What farmer would  
> not be very grateful that you have helped him IMPROVE the qulity of  
> the soil on his land, rather than get him more "hooked"?  What  
> farmer would not be grateful that you could help them kick the  
> subsidy and fertilizer habit?
>
> Is it possible that that ag chemical suppliers could embrace the  
> Terra Preta phenomenon and use it to turn your industry in to one  
> which does more help than harm?  You might still make money (after  
> fossil fuel prices have driven your costs through the roof), if you  
> had a healthy business in charcoal manufacturing and remediation of  
> soil and the atmosphere.  Just think about it, ok?
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jon C. Frank
> To: Terrapreta
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 3:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] You Are What You Grow
>
> Peter> Corn is such a heavy feeder and we know what it will be  
> eating and the soil poverty it will be leaving behind.
>
> Corn is excellent for building humus and biomas in the soil.  The  
> problem is not raising corn--it is how it is raised.  The deeper  
> problem is goverment policy that pushes the price low with  
> subsidies.  A hands off approach would be much better.
>
> Jon
> -----Original Message-----
> From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org [mailto:terrapreta- 
> bounces at bioenergylists.org]On Behalf Of PurNrg at aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 4:36 PM
> To: sean.barry at juno.com; MMBTUPR at aol.com; lou.gold at gmail.com
> Cc: Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] You Are What You Grow
>
>
> In a message dated 9/11/07 2:04:04 PM, sean.barry at juno.com writes:
>
>
>> The use of industrially made, fossil-fuel based fertilizers is a  
>> shameful gluttony that Industrial Agriculture has done for this  
>> country.
>> It may be one of the worst things that we have ever done to the land.
>>
>>
>
>
> And the advent of growing millions of tons of extra corn to turn  
> into ethanol isn't going to help matters one bit! Corn is such a  
> heavy feeder and we know what it will be eating and the soil  
> poverty it will be leaving behind. It's really like robbing Peter  
> to pay Paul, but typical of 'addicted' behavior; no thought really  
> of anything beyond the continued flow of the substance we love so  
> much. We need an intervention! Anyone else read Asimov's  
> Childhood's End? We can hope, because that's what it's apparently  
> going to take to change our wicked ways!
>
> Sorry for wandering off topic :-/>.
>
> Peter :-)>
>
>
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