[Terrapreta] Pure Organics Vs. Biological Agriculture

Wed Sep 19 00:36:32 EDT 2007

Is adding char to a growing medium economic?

It is already used as an admixture in the growing medium for  
comercial orchids.

This winter, we'll try mixing some in with the medium for hydroponic  
peppers to see what it does.

Char will first be used on the most expensive and intensively  
cultivated greenhouse crops.  Cost vs. benefit will determine to what  
point on the more intensive to the least intensive range of  
agricultural production it will reach.

Gerrit

On 18-Sep-07, at 8:26 PM, Kevin Chisholm wrote:

> Dear Sean
>
> As far as I can see, all the List Members are "Terra Preta
> Johhnie-Come-Latelys". I don't know of anyone on the List who grew  
> up on
> a Farm that employed Terra Preta. I think we all see the clear benefit
> of TP for carbon sequestration. Correct me if I am wrong, but nobody
> knows if adding char to soil is economic, or if they do, they aren't
> saying. Alot of ppl say TP is a fabulous growing medium but it  
> would be
> nice to see some test results that digitized the generalities.
>
> We are all rooting for TP. However, growing on TP soils is an art at
> this stage, not a science. We don't know very much about Terra  
> Preta...
>
> * What are the types of soils that would benefit from conversion to  
> TP soil?
> * How much char should be added to various types of soil?
> * What is the nature and quantity of organic matter additions to  
> the soil?
> * What size of char should be employed?
> * How should the char be made?
> * What should be added to the TP plot each year, to maintain the TP at
> peak capability?
> * What crops do well on TP, and what crops do not justify the extra  
> cost
> of making TP?
> * ...etc...
>
> Jon seems to be able to tell people how to grow High Brix crops.  If I
> follow his recommended procedures, I should be able to duplicate his
> results. If I can then that is science.  We need TP to be brought to
> this level of science. It is not at all helpful to say that "...some
> people in Brazil has been working a TP plot for 500 years, and it  
> works
> for them...". We need Jon's kind of science before TP will take off  
> and
> become the widely employed success we all want it to be.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> Sean K. Barry wrote:
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> Not by tests I have done.  Christoph Steiner and Johannes Lehmann are
>> the only people I have heard of who have actually done any tests in
>> actual Terra Preta soils.
>>
>> The people who live in Brazil, the families who have farmed land with
>> Terra Preta soil on it for 500+ years generation after generation,  
>> will
>> attest to it, though.  Some grow world record productive papaya and
>> mango groves.  They do not buy or use industrial fertilizers.  They,
>> like the generations of ancestors before them, put back into the  
>> soil,
>> those parts of the harvest, which are not eaten.  They value the land
>> for its fertility.  They guard it closely.  There are laws that  
>> prohibit
>> "mining" and "selling" TP soil.  It is truly valuable land for them
>> because of it productivity.  They are not corporate entities, with  
>> huge
>> capital assets, and armies of PR people, making things sound so good,
>> that you can hardly believe it.  They are truck farmers, peasant
>> farmers.  They do what they do and it works for them.  That is all  
>> the
>> evidence they need.
>>
>> I grant you that most of these people are not scientists and they  
>> could
>> not tell you why the TP soil they live on and grow crops in can do  
>> what
>> it does.  They just know from experience over their lifetime and the
>> lifetimes of the generations before them that TP soil provides them a
>> bounty for the growth of crops.  Some have documented ownership and
>> cultivation for 500+ years.
>>
>> I, like many, including the people who use TP soil, do not know  
>> what the
>> "recipe" is.  From what I have read, the cultivation practice that  
>> makes
>> most sense to me, for maintaining the soil fertility under continuous
>> cultivation, is that they "return" to the soil all of the plant  
>> wastes
>> from the harvest.  They compost the food wastes back into the soil,
>> also.  My belief is that the charcoal carbon in the soil pays large
>> dividends for their deposits.  They give back the plant nutrients  
>> that
>> they do not use and the soil/micro-organism ecology in the soil  
>> gives it
>> to the plants in their next crop.
>>
>> I do not know that anyone has come up with a definitive,  
>> scientifically
>> arrived at understanding as to how it all works.  It is from  
>> generations
>> of experience that they "know" that it works.  They might not know  
>> "why"
>> or "how" it works, but they will protect it as an asset, nonetheless.
>> They do not abandon it because they do not know how it works.
>>
>> So, I guess I am saying its anecdotal.  This is very like what Dr.  
>> A.D.
>> Karve says.  He has hypothesis about why what he is doing works.   
>> He is
>> trying to develop theories as to "why" and "how".  He has many  
>> village
>> farmers that rely on his methods, practice his methods, and  
>> believe that
>> "it works", because it does for them.  Maybe, someday, he will be  
>> able
>> to show (the damned nit-picking (I'm kidding)) scientists why.
>>
>> I would say, though (and you have pointed this out yourself  
>> recently),
>> there are two camps in here about Terra Preta; 1) those that want  
>> it for
>> its enhanced agricultural benefit, and 2) those that want this for
>> carbon sequestration.
>>
>> I think 1) is possible and hard to know why.  I think 2) is  
>> obvious and
>> absolutely clear by virtue of the mere existence of 2500+ year old
>> charcoal carbon in the Amazon rainforest.  It was put there by people
>> long ago.  It is still there.  It has been sequestered for 2500+  
>> years
>> ... No doubt about it (not in my mind).  This is like 15 times the
>> duration of our entire Industrial Revolution and 15 times the  
>> amount of
>> time that it has taken humankind to pump all the 300 million year old
>> fossil fuel carbon into the atmosphere!  Clearly, we can sequester
>> carbon by putting charcoal carbon into the soil, don't you think?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> SKB
>>
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     *From:* Kevin Chisholm <mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
>>     *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
>>     *Cc:* Terrapreta <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; Jon C.
>>     Frank <mailto:jon.frank at aglabs.com>
>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, September 18, 2007 5:40 PM
>>     *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] Pure Organics Vs. Biological  
>> Agriculture
>>
>>     Dear Sean
>>
>>     Most of your posting makes sense, but you lose me here..
>>
>>     Sean K. Barry wrote:
>>> Hi Jon,
>>>
>>     ...del...
>>
>>        Terra Preta is vastly fertile soil,
>>> with fertility that HAS lasted for 500+ years, under continuous
>>> cultivation, in some places.  It already works to improve crop
>>> productivity.
>>
>>     Would you have any test results you could refer us to, to  
>> support these
>>     statements?
>>
>>     You may wish to start with a "recipe" for Terra Preta, and a
>>     description
>>     of the cultivation practices that have been employed for the past
>>     500 years.
>>
>>     Best wishes,
>>
>>     Kevin
>>
>>
>
>
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