[Terrapreta] Making charcoal in a barrel
Sean K. Barry
sean.barry at juno.com
Sun Sep 23 23:22:29 EDT 2007
Hi 'terrpreta' list,
Adriana is abosolutely right!
But, Adriana, these people just want to research the value of putting charcoal into soil. This work is something that does need to be done, regardless of how the small amounts of charcoal are got at. They are not trying to make vast quantities of charcoal when they do this.
Anyone who does try to make a system which can make much charcoal, should totally be aware that emissions count. It is a problem to make lots of charcoal and not handle the methane-CH4 emissions for the fact that methane-CH4 is a very potent GHG. Large emissions of GHGs and particulates can be a problem legally as well in some locals.
My personal opinion is that it might be slightly better to try and make a retort of sorts out a a barrel, rather then to just make charcoal inside the barrel. I have seen a retort made from a barrel, where the off-gas is burned underneath the barrel to supply heat for accelerating the charring reaction. This is not really necessary for charring, as charcoal can be produced by an exothermic reaction inside a bed containing hot "gas generating charcoal" and raw biomass. But, it does flare the off gases adequately.
It is still relatively slow when compared to "flash carbonization" for instance. It is labor intensive and also takes knowledgeable management to keep the process going.
Regards,
Sean K. Barry
Principal Engineer/Owner
Troposphere Energy, LLC
11170 142nd St. N.
Stillwater, MN 55082
(651) 351-0711 (Home/Fax)
(651) 285-0904 (Cell)
sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriana Downie<mailto:adriana at bestenergies.com.au>
To: 'Robert Flanagan'<mailto:saffechina at gmail.com> ; 'Gerald Van Koeverden'<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Making charcoal in a barrel
Once again, you have to remember that making charcoal in a barrel releases far more potent greenhouse gases than you could ever sequester by putting the subsequent biochar in your soil.
Hence, if you make biochar in a barrel you are contributing to global warming, not being part of the solution.
Adriana.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Flanagan [mailto:saffechina at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, 24 September 2007 11:59 AM
To: Gerald Van Koeverden
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Making charcoal in a barrel
Hey Gerrit,
Making charcoal is very easy, heat the biomass up to the start of it's exothermic curve and away she go's! In the barrel setup that I described to David all the oxygen is consumed and the heat given off forces the cooler biomass to rise in temperature and so on. The hard part is keeping a flame to burn as much of the off gasses as possible as there is typically a lot of steam coming off and that's the reason to get a good fire going first and add the rest of your biomass slowly.
From what I can make out from the look of the high ash content of this guys charcoal he's doing some thing that I described and I know he's going around this local area teaching others http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRhTmKySnhA<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRhTmKySnhA>
Give it a try in a tin can and you'll see your self.
Rob.
On 9/23/07, Gerald Van Koeverden <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca <mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
rob,
I don't understand how you can produce char without any method of keeping the oxygen out of the system?? If such a simple system could work, it'd be dead easy to adapt it to into a process for continuous field charring of crop residues...Maybe I'm misunderstanding it??
Gerrit
On 22-Sep-07, at 12:24 AM, Robert Flanagan wrote:
Dear David,
If your going to go ahead and make charcoal in a barrel then I'll give you a simple method to get you on your way.
First if possible cut and dry the biomass by leaving it in the sun for a few weeks.
Then you'll need a 55gallon drum, long handled spade and some matches.
Place your barrel on it's side on the ground facing into the wind if possible and put some biomass inside (1/3 full).
Then light a fire under the biomass at the opening of the barrel and allow the fire to build until you've got a good fire going with lots of glowing embers.
Then using the spade push the embers into the barrel and add more biomass (The goal here is to keep a flame to burn as much off gasses as possible so only add biomass a bit at a time)
Keep doing this until you have a good quantity of char then using the spade lift the barrel upright.
Again start adding biomass and once it looks like it's all on fire knock it back down into the barrel with the spade and add more biomass.
You can keep doing this until your barrel in full of char.
Then put a lid on top and maybe weigh the lid down with a block and leave for several hours to cool down.
The charcoal produced in this method will have a higher ash content but should be fine for your home experiments.
Best of luck,
Rob.
On 9/22/07, David Yarrow <dyarrow at nycap.rr.com <mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>> wrote:
actually, i'd like to respectfully disagree with robert. and yet agree with
his more fundamental logic that the amazonian natives didn't charcoal trees.
but they didn't just charcoal corn stalks, either.
i recall nearly 40 years ago i learned how to make earthenware pottery from
a man who lived many years with the navajo in the southwestern states. he
fired his pottery in a pit with cow pies. i was amazed they would even
burn, and even more amazed how hot they could get. then he should me how to
damp down the glowering pit of redhot cowpies and create a reducing fire to
turn the pottery black.
when i moved into my 190-year-old farmhouse 10 years ago, i could see the
soil was wasted, wornout and depleted from the ratty lawn and poor diversity
of plant species. my neighbor, who grew up in my house, saw me starting a
garden and came over to warn me i wouldn't get anything to grow. i thanked
him and continued doing what i had learned to do to create fertile topsoil.
these days, i have milkweed, valerian, goosefoot, other weeds that reach 5
to 8 foot tall, with sout, sturdy stems. and the bamboo and rosebushes!!
even my pokeweed grows into giant bushes. and the trees that once barely
grew are blooming like mad, making multitudes of seeds which fall on fertile
soil and sprout like mad into sapling weed trees. all this before i found
out about charcoal.
so my once wasted and weak soil is now busting out with bioversity and
biomass all through the growing season. i am still amazed how each spring
when the snow melts, the flat soil erupts in green growth that soon soars up
to and over my head. since much of this annual outburst of growth is
"weeds," i have an abundance of biomass to harvest and stuff in a
pyrolyer -- or pottery kiln. long before i get to harvesting cornstalks, i
could have barrels of charcoal ready to spread -- most of it fine textured,
and easily crushed into powder without metal tools or power equipment. and
absolutely no reason to cut down any trees to make firewood or charcoal.
i seriously, thoroughly doubt the amazon tribes needed to cut down trees
just to make charcoal. if nothing else, it was far too much work.
David Yarrow
"If yer not forest, yer against us."
Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
dyarrow at nycap.rr.com<mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>
www.championtrees.org<http://www.championtrees.org/>
www.OnondagaLakePeaceFestival.org<http://www.onondagalakepeacefestival.org/>
www.citizenre.com/dyarrow/<http://www.citizenre.com/dyarrow/>
www.farmandfood.org<http://www.farmandfood.org/>
www.SeaAgri.com<http://www.seaagri.com/>
"Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times,
if one only remembers to turn on the light."
-Albus Dumbledore
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Chisholm" < kchisholm at ca.inter.net<mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>>
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terra preta postings on arclein blog
> Dear Sean
>
> Sean K. Barry wrote:
>> Robert!
>>
>> YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION THAT AMAZONIAN
>> PEOPLE MADE ALL OF THE TERRA PRETA FROM CORN STOVER 2500 YEARS AGO!
>> WOULD YOU PLEASE QUIT STATING THIS AS FACT?
>
> What would you suggest as being a more feasible, practical, or likely
> way for the natives to make char?
>
> Is there any reason why the char required for terra preta would not be
> made in this manner?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>>
>> SKB
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Robert Klein <mailto: arclein at yahoo.com<mailto:arclein at yahoo.com>>
>> *To:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>> <mailto: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>>
>> *Sent:* Friday, September 21, 2007 4:30 PM
>> *Subject:* [Terrapreta] Terra preta postings on arclein blog
>>
>> I thought that I would work through the 250 message
>> backlog from this group sitting in my inbox this
>> weekend. A daunting task. However I am pleased to
>> see the extensive sharing of information on forests
>> taking place. I expect that I will be able to quote
>> some of this on my Blog.
>>
>> I also sat down and developed a list of my terra preta
>> related postings, not all reposted to this group and
>> posted that on my blog. I am including a list here
>> for you to peruse. My advice is to start at the
>> beginning to the description of the corn stack method
>> of indigenous production and then jump to the end and
>> work backward.
>>
>> I see no realistic way to economically produce terra
>> preta without resorting to a variation of the original
>> production method. Concern was raised about the
>> production of methane which I see as misplaced. In
>> fact, the methane will likely provide the majority of
>> the heat in the combustion process, but this needs to
>> be properly field tested.
>>
>> Here you go. While you are at it bookmark my site or
>> subscribe as I post daily on a range of related
>> subjects. Even better give me stuff to comment on.
>>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/carbonization.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/carbonization.html>
>>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/corn-cultures-bright-furure.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/corn-cultures-bright-furure.html>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/total-carbon-sequestration-potential.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/total-carbon-sequestration-potential.html>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/tropical-soils_26.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/tropical-soils_26.html>
>>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/discussion-with-ron-larsen-on-terra.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/discussion-with-ron-larsen-on-terra.html>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/human-labor.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/human-labor.html>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/those-amazonian-soils.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/those-amazonian-soils.html>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/pollutants-from-carbonization.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/pollutants-from-carbonization.html>
>>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/nutrient-accumulation.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/nutrient-accumulation.html>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/uniqueness-of-corn-culture.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/uniqueness-of-corn-culture.html>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/amazon.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/amazon.html>
>>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/heat-distribution-and-terra-preta-soils.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/heat-distribution-and-terra-preta-soils.html>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/getting-job-done-biochar-on-modern-farm.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/getting-job-done-biochar-on-modern-farm.html>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/tom-miles-comments-on-biochar.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/tom-miles-comments-on-biochar.html>
>>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/mel-landers-and-jackie-foo-on-field.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/mel-landers-and-jackie-foo-on-field.html>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/methane-and-pottery.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/methane-and-pottery.html>
>>
>> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/09/glopbal-corn-culture.html <http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/09/glopbal-corn-culture.html>
>>
>>
>> enjoy
>>
>> arclein
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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>>
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Robert Flanagan
Chairman & President
Hangzhou Sustainable Agricultural Food & Fuel Enterprise Co., Ltd.
Skype "saffechina"
Tel: 86-571-881-850-67
Cell: 86-130-189-959-57
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--
Robert Flanagan
Chairman & President
Hangzhou Sustainable Agricultural Food & Fuel Enterprise Co., Ltd.
Skype "saffechina"
Tel: 86-571-881-850-67
Cell: 86-130-189-959-57
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