[Terrapreta] Making charcoal in a barrel
Robert Flanagan
saffechina at gmail.com
Sun Sep 23 23:39:20 EDT 2007
Hey Sean,
Not sure if I mentioned this before but I worked for years as an Industrial
combustion service technician so I do know what I'm talking about when I say
making charcoal in a barrel as I describedis a whole lot better then open
burning. The CH4 is burned and not emitted as a GHG once you keep a flame
going!
I added Michael Antal to this mail to see if he could come up with a small
cheap flash carbonizer to resolve this issue.
Regards,
Rob.
On 9/24/07, Sean K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com> wrote:
>
> Hi 'terrpreta' list,
>
> Adriana is abosolutely right!
>
> But, Adriana, these people just want to research the value of putting
> charcoal into soil. This work is something that does need to be done,
> regardless of how the small amounts of charcoal are got at. They are not
> trying to make vast quantities of charcoal when they do this.
>
> Anyone who does try to make a system which can make much charcoal, should
> totally be aware that emissions count. It is a problem to make lots of
> charcoal and not handle the methane-CH4 emissions for the fact that
> methane-CH4 is a very potent GHG. Large emissions of GHGs and particulates
> can be a problem legally as well in some locals.
>
> My personal opinion is that it might be slightly better to try and make a
> retort of sorts out a a barrel, rather then to just make charcoal inside the
> barrel. I have seen a retort made from a barrel, where the off-gas is
> burned underneath the barrel to supply heat for accelerating the charring
> reaction. This is not really necessary for charring, as charcoal can be
> produced by an exothermic reaction inside a bed containing hot "gas
> generating charcoal" and raw biomass. But, it does flare the off gases
> adequately.
> It is still relatively slow when compared to "flash carbonization" for
> instance. It is labor intensive and also takes knowledgeable management to
> keep the process going.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sean K. Barry
> Principal Engineer/Owner
> Troposphere Energy, LLC
> 11170 142nd St. N.
> Stillwater, MN 55082
> (651) 351-0711 (Home/Fax)
> (651) 285-0904 (Cell)
> sean.barry at juno.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Adriana Downie <adriana at bestenergies.com.au>
> *To:* 'Robert Flanagan' <saffechina at gmail.com> ; 'Gerald Van Koeverden'<vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> *Cc:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:38 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] Making charcoal in a barrel
>
>
>
> Once again, you have to remember that making charcoal in a barrel releases
> far more potent greenhouse gases than you could ever sequester by putting
> the subsequent biochar in your soil.
>
>
>
> Hence, if you make biochar in a barrel you are contributing to global
> warming, not being part of the solution.
>
>
>
> Adriana.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Robert Flanagan [mailto:saffechina at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, 24 September 2007 11:59 AM
> *To:* Gerald Van Koeverden
> *Cc:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] Making charcoal in a barrel
>
>
>
> Hey Gerrit,
>
>
>
> Making charcoal is very easy, heat the biomass up to the start of it's
> exothermic curve and away she go's! In the barrel setup that I described to
> David all the oxygen is consumed and the heat given off forces the cooler
> biomass to rise in temperature and so on. The hard part is keeping a flame
> to burn as much of the off gasses as possible as there is typically a lot of
> steam coming off and that's the reason to get a good fire going first and
> add the rest of your biomass slowly.
>
>
>
> From what I can make out from the look of the high ash content of this
> guys charcoal he's doing some thing that I described and I know he's going
> around this local area teaching others
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRhTmKySnhA
>
>
>
> Give it a try in a tin can and you'll see your self.
>
>
>
> Rob.
>
>
>
> On 9/23/07, *Gerald Van Koeverden* <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca > wrote:
>
> rob,
>
>
>
>
> I don't understand how you can produce char without any method of keeping
> the oxygen out of the system?? If such a simple system could work, it'd be
> dead easy to adapt it to into a process for continuous field charring of
> crop residues...Maybe I'm misunderstanding it??
>
>
>
>
> Gerrit
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 22-Sep-07, at 12:24 AM, Robert Flanagan wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear David,
>
>
>
> If your going to go ahead and make charcoal in a barrel then I'll give you
> a simple method to get you on your way.
>
> First if possible cut and dry the biomass by leaving it in the sun for a
> few weeks.
>
> Then you'll need a 55gallon drum, long handled spade and some matches.
>
> Place your barrel on it's side on the ground facing into the wind if
> possible and put some biomass inside (1/3 full).
>
> Then light a fire under the biomass at the opening of the barrel and allow
> the fire to build until you've got a good fire going with lots of glowing
> embers.
>
> Then using the spade push the embers into the barrel and add more biomass
> (The goal here is to keep a flame to burn as much off gasses as possible so
> only add biomass a bit at a time)
>
> Keep doing this until you have a good quantity of char then using the
> spade lift the barrel upright.
>
> Again start adding biomass and once it looks like it's all on fire knock
> it back down into the barrel with the spade and add more biomass.
>
> You can keep doing this until your barrel in full of char.
>
> Then put a lid on top and maybe weigh the lid down with a block and leave
> for several hours to cool down.
>
>
>
> The charcoal produced in this method will have a higher ash content but
> should be fine for your home experiments.
>
>
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Rob.
>
>
>
> On 9/22/07, *David Yarrow* <dyarrow at nycap.rr.com > wrote:
>
> actually, i'd like to respectfully disagree with robert. and yet agree
> with
> his more fundamental logic that the amazonian natives didn't charcoal
> trees.
> but they didn't just charcoal corn stalks, either.
>
> i recall nearly 40 years ago i learned how to make earthenware pottery
> from
> a man who lived many years with the navajo in the southwestern states. he
> fired his pottery in a pit with cow pies. i was amazed they would even
> burn, and even more amazed how hot they could get. then he should me how
> to
> damp down the glowering pit of redhot cowpies and create a reducing fire
> to
> turn the pottery black.
>
> when i moved into my 190-year-old farmhouse 10 years ago, i could see the
> soil was wasted, wornout and depleted from the ratty lawn and poor
> diversity
> of plant species. my neighbor, who grew up in my house, saw me starting a
>
> garden and came over to warn me i wouldn't get anything to grow. i
> thanked
> him and continued doing what i had learned to do to create fertile
> topsoil.
>
> these days, i have milkweed, valerian, goosefoot, other weeds that reach 5
>
> to 8 foot tall, with sout, sturdy stems. and the bamboo and rosebushes!!
> even my pokeweed grows into giant bushes. and the trees that once barely
> grew are blooming like mad, making multitudes of seeds which fall on
> fertile
> soil and sprout like mad into sapling weed trees. all this before i found
> out about charcoal.
>
> so my once wasted and weak soil is now busting out with bioversity and
> biomass all through the growing season. i am still amazed how each spring
>
> when the snow melts, the flat soil erupts in green growth that soon soars
> up
> to and over my head. since much of this annual outburst of growth is
> "weeds," i have an abundance of biomass to harvest and stuff in a
> pyrolyer -- or pottery kiln. long before i get to harvesting cornstalks,
> i
> could have barrels of charcoal ready to spread -- most of it fine
> textured,
> and easily crushed into powder without metal tools or power
> equipment. and
> absolutely no reason to cut down any trees to make firewood or charcoal.
>
> i seriously, thoroughly doubt the amazon tribes needed to cut down trees
> just to make charcoal. if nothing else, it was far too much work.
>
> David Yarrow
> "If yer not forest, yer against us."
> Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
> 44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
> dyarrow at nycap.rr.com
> www.championtrees.org
> www.OnondagaLakePeaceFestival.org<http://www.onondagalakepeacefestival.org/>
> www.citizenre.com/dyarrow/
> www.farmandfood.org
> www.SeaAgri.com <http://www.seaagri.com/>
>
> "Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times,
> if one only remembers to turn on the light."
> -Albus Dumbledore
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Chisholm" < kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 9:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terra preta postings on arclein blog
>
>
> > Dear Sean
> >
> > Sean K. Barry wrote:
> >> Robert!
> >>
> >> YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION THAT
> AMAZONIAN
> >> PEOPLE MADE ALL OF THE TERRA PRETA FROM CORN STOVER 2500 YEARS AGO!
> >> WOULD YOU PLEASE QUIT STATING THIS AS FACT?
> >
> > What would you suggest as being a more feasible, practical, or likely
> > way for the natives to make char?
> >
> > Is there any reason why the char required for terra preta would not be
> > made in this manner?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Kevin
> >>
> >> SKB
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* Robert Klein <mailto: arclein at yahoo.com>
> >> *To:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> >> <mailto: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org >
> >> *Sent:* Friday, September 21, 2007 4:30 PM
> >> *Subject:* [Terrapreta] Terra preta postings on arclein blog
> >>
> >> I thought that I would work through the 250 message
> >> backlog from this group sitting in my inbox this
> >> weekend. A daunting task. However I am pleased to
> >> see the extensive sharing of information on forests
> >> taking place. I expect that I will be able to quote
> >> some of this on my Blog.
> >>
> >> I also sat down and developed a list of my terra preta
> >> related postings, not all reposted to this group and
> >> posted that on my blog. I am including a list here
> >> for you to peruse. My advice is to start at the
> >> beginning to the description of the corn stack method
> >> of indigenous production and then jump to the end and
> >> work backward.
> >>
> >> I see no realistic way to economically produce terra
> >> preta without resorting to a variation of the original
> >> production method. Concern was raised about the
> >> production of methane which I see as misplaced. In
> >> fact, the methane will likely provide the majority of
> >> the heat in the combustion process, but this needs to
> >> be properly field tested.
> >>
> >> Here you go. While you are at it bookmark my site or
> >> subscribe as I post daily on a range of related
> >> subjects. Even better give me stuff to comment on.
> >>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/carbonization.html
>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/corn-cultures-bright-furure.html
>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/total-carbon-sequestration-potential.html
>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/06/tropical-soils_26.html
>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/discussion-with-ron-larsen-on-terra.html
>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/human-labor.html
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/those-amazonian-soils.html
>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/pollutants-from-carbonization.html
>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/nutrient-accumulation.html
>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/uniqueness-of-corn-culture.html
>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/07/amazon.html
> >>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/heat-distribution-and-terra-preta-soils.html
>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/getting-job-done-biochar-on-modern-farm.html
>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/tom-miles-comments-on-biochar.html
>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/mel-landers-and-jackie-foo-on-field.html
>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/08/methane-and-pottery.html
>
> >>
> >> http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com/2007/09/glopbal-corn-culture.html
>
> >>
> >>
> >> enjoy
> >>
> >> arclein
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
>
> >> Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get
> >> listings, and more!
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> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org <mailto:Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> >
> >>
> >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
>
> >> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
> >> http://info.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
>
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> >> http://info.bioenergylists.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Terrapreta mailing list
> > Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
>
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> > http://info.bioenergylists.org
>
>
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Robert Flanagan
> Chairman & President
> Hangzhou Sustainable Agricultural Food & Fuel Enterprise Co., Ltd.
>
> Skype "saffechina"
> Tel: 86-571-881-850-67
> Cell: 86-130-189-959-57
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
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>
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>
> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Robert Flanagan
> Chairman & President
> Hangzhou Sustainable Agricultural Food & Fuel Enterprise Co., Ltd.
>
> Skype "saffechina"
> Tel: 86-571-881-850-67
> Cell: 86-130-189-959-57
> _______________________________________________
> Terrapreta mailing list
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> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
> http://info.bioenergylists.org
>
>
--
Robert Flanagan
Chairman & President
Hangzhou Sustainable Agricultural Food & Fuel Enterprise Co., Ltd.
Skype "saffechina"
Tel: 86-571-881-850-67
Cell: 86-130-189-959-57
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