[Terrapreta] A limited defense of composting

[Frank Teuton]

Hi Jim,

Composting of course has its limits. Nevertheless, no regime of cover cropping not involving long term stands of sod actually results in increased soil OM levels. And, most all of the crops in actual use for such are primarily grown for animal feed. And where there are animals, there is manure....composting reduces the volume of the manure to be spread by about half.  Where the land is devoted to long term stands of perennials exclusively for growing soil OM the opportunity cost also has to be weighed in the balance.

Acknowledging that you have your own experiences in this, please be aware that your experiences may not apply to everyone. Obviously there are uneconomical ways to use compost, but there are many farmers who find there are economical methods as well. Agriculture is a local science, and not only not every farm, but not every field is the same.


As it applies to Terra Preta, composting may well be the best vehicle through which charcoal can be charged with nutrients and organisms and prevented from causing that first year negative plant growth effect. Other methods including compost tea, fertilizers, etc, may also compete for this spot.

I know of few farmers who oppose composting to 'a good rotation scheme'. Most would simply apply compost at a particular point in a good rotation scheme to optimize productivity.

Basically all the negabobbing you did about composting can also be done about charcoal. Charcoal is an extremely high priced commodity compared to any ingredient for composting you will likely find; the world in which you will be paid a tipping fee to accept charcoal on your farm is very far fetched from the one we actually live in.

Nevertheless, let us continue to try to get ourselves to a better place, but let us not be utterly dismissive of a traditional practice in wide use which could be a helpful companion towards the goal of getting more of the atmospheric carbon back into the soil.

My two cents,

Frank Teuton
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Joyner 
  To: Terra Preta List 
  Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Char made made under pressurized conditions?


  Why cling to this romantic idea of composting? On practically any scale it is not worth it.

  First, with the exception of the most ideal situations, it is uneconomical. I used to make 200 tons of compost each year. The materials (bedding and cattle manure) were free, eight miles away. They loaded my truck too. But after calculating the cost of hauling, turning, spreading, the profitability on crops was only marginally better than just a good rotation scheme. There was no difference in quality. And putting any sort of cost on opportunity for the time wasted, it was a wash or a loss.

  Second, using compost, it is almost impossible to know what nutrient mix is going to result. Compost is not magical. What one puts in is what one gets out.

  Compostable materials are getting harder to find whether you are a gardener or a farmer. That is because the efficiency of land/crop use has been forced to increase. There is little waste in crop production. In fact, what appears as waste is often the sign of bad soil management. Taking crop residues is self defeating because, such a practice just moves the cost somewhere else. (I'm excluding the use of sheet composting here, for that is basically a practice of best utilizing field wastes right on the field. But this would have little relationship to the use of charcoal).

  The best and most effective way increase OM in the soil, at least in the temperate climes, is to grow it there -- good cover cropping and rotations. The most economical and best way to control and replenish nutrients in the soil is with the use of rock powders. Ultimately, that is where all the nutrient comes from anyway. Using composted materials from nutrient mined soils may increase OM temporarily but does a poor and uncontrollable job of replenishing. 

  So, back to charcoal in the soil. Grow the OM in the soil. In a balanced soil (just like good compost), there will be no ammonia given off. What little there is will be quickly converted to nitrites and then to plant-usable nitrates.

  Unless compost is subsidized with tax money (e.g., like municipalities composting leaves and tree waste), there is no sense in using compost at all. Even then, once the cost of using  it is calculated in, it may not be worth it. The only place it can make sense is if there are materials available for free and labor is very cheap.

  For those thinking about saving the world by reducing CO2, composting maybe a nice academic subject but it has no place in the practices for sequestering massive amounts of carbon.

  Jim

  Jeff Davis wrote: 
Dear All,

OK, there is no smell from my compost pile so I should not have a
problem. I've had people tell me that it's not a good idea to compost
because of too much pollution like ammonia but no smell no problem!
That's good news! 

So besides urine is there any other way to produce something like
ammonia (natural) to enrich the charcoal ?

If one was going to apply just urine to a field any ideas how many
gallons to the acre? Or I should say how to equate a gallon of urine to
a bag of fertilizer.


Best regards,

Jeff


On Sun, 2008-03-30 at 06:30 -0400, teelws at jmu.edu wrote:
  All,

Fulke Gunther is right on about the compost pile.  Anytime you have an ammonia smell you have a problem.  Adding "edible" carbon to get the C:N ratio above 25:1 is essential.  Adding char does something else.  In this case you have to have the ammonia in the form of ammonium ion, NH4+.  It will attach to the negative charge on the surface of char pores and be immobilized until removed by a stronger chemical or electrical attraction.  Aeration and proper moisture content are essential for this process.  Too dry you have volatilization, too wet and leaching results.

By the way, char carbon does not count in the C:N ratio you want because it is nearly biologically inactive.  It provides a surface area for complex biological activity, but if made properly should be effectively inert, which is why it lasts in soil so long.  A good compost ratio includes only the portion of carbon potentially edible by bacteria.  The biggest advantage of adding char to compost (aside from the sequestration over the long term) is that it reduces leaching losses of nitrogen compounds, keeping nutrient available for plants for longer periods.

Wayne

---- Original message ----
    Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 03:46:09 +0200
From: Folke Günther <folke at holon.se>  
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Char made made under pressurized conditions?  
To: "'Sean K. Barry'" <sean.barry at juno.com>, <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>

  I have been following the discussion for some days
  now, and now, I can't keep quiet any more.

  1. If you get ammonia from your compost pile, you
      are managing it in the wrong way. You either has
      too little plant material vs. meat or
      nitrogen-rich material, too much water, or too
      bad aeration. All these problems can be
      alleviated wit the addition of charcoal.
  2. Don' put urine on warm charcoal. You will loose a
      lot in the air.
  3. On the other hand, if you have aces to urine,
      from a source-separating toilet, or from a
      stable, it is a god idea to add it to fresh
      carcoal. It will be absorbed to a large extent
      (I don't have numbers here, does anybody have
      numbers on how much urine could be absorbed in
      charcoal?) Anyhow, the smell from a jar of urine
      will fade considerably when charcoal is added.

   

  Adding two system diagrams on the combination of
  different activities in a charring society If they
  are unintelligible, please contact me.

   

  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

  Folke Günther

  Kollegievägen 19

  224 73 Lund, Sweden

  home/office: +46 46 14 14 29

  cell:               0709 710306  skype:  folkegun

  Homepage:     http://www.holon.se/folke 
  blog: http://folkegunther.blogspot.com/

   

  ----------------------------------------------------

  Från: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
  [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] För
  Sean K. Barry
  Skickat: den 29 mars 2008 22:40
  Till: Terra Preta; Jeff Davis
  Ämne: Re: [Terrapreta] Char made made under
  pressurized conditions?

   

  Hi Jeff,

   

  This is an interesting idea, because of the free
  source of cool ammonia-NH3 gas from from off a
  compost pile.  I wonder what the concentration of
  ammonia-NH3 in air is?  It is entirely possible that
  ammonia-NH3 would be absorbed into charcoal, but
  maybe in the form of a solidified ammonia salt, like
  ammonium bicarbonate (NH4HCO3), rather than as a
  gas.  I don't believe NH3 gas reactes with carbon-C
  atoms on the surface of the charcoal.

   

  Eprida had/has a product called ECOSS which has (I
  believe) ammonium bicarbonate deposited on the
  surface of the charcoal (like an M&M candy
  coating).  Some of their early bags smelled like
  ammonia when first opened, I heard.  I think making
  a fertilized with ammonia charcoal product would
  require some way to "fix" the NH3 molecules onto the
  charcoal.

   

  Regards,

   

  SKB

    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Jeff Davis

    To: Terra Preta

    Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:21 PM

    Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Char made made under
    pressurized conditions?

     

    Dear All,

    I was thinking more on the lines of capturing the
    lost ammonia gas (etc)
    from the composting pile. If it would be possible
    to absorb this in the
    cooling period of the charcoal. I know it's a
    close to zero chance.

    Best regards,

    Jeff

    > Either case, I still doubt that N2 as a
    reasonably inert gas will do
    > anything - either as a fertilizer or be absorbed
    into the char.

    --
    Jeff Davis

    Some where 20 miles south of Lake Erie, USA

    _______________________________________________
    Terrapreta mailing list
    Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
    http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
    http://info.bioenergylists.org

    ------------------------------------------------

  Jag använder en gratisversion av SPAMfighter för
  privata användare.
  16268 spam har blivit blockerade hittills.
  Betalande användare har inte detta meddelande i sin
  e-post.
  Hämta gratis SPAMfighter idag!
________________
urinecharcoal.gif (27k bytes)
________________
systemdiagram.gif (64k bytes)
________________
_______________________________________________
Terrapreta mailing list
Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
http://info.bioenergylists.org
      Wayne S. Teel
MSC 4102 ISAT
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
Tel: 540-568-2798
Fax: 540-568-2761
_______________________________________________
Terrapreta mailing list
Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
http://info.bioenergylists.org
    

_______________________________________________
Terrapreta mailing list
Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
http://info.bioenergylists.org



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Terrapreta mailing list
  Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
  http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
  http://info.bioenergylists.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /attachments/20080401/efaadfbc/attachment.html