[Terrapreta] The Reason for Pottery Shards in Terra Preta. Re: Char and compost ( was Char made made under pressurized conditions? )

[lou gold]

Hi Everyone,

I'll need to contemplate it more but I'm really liking the direction of this
theory of the pottery shards. Very interesting indeed.

all best to ya,

lou

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Kevin Chisholm <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
wrote:

> Dear Dr Reddy
>
> I would pose for your consideration the following:
>
> * The pottery chards in Brazilian Terra Preta come from containers that
> were used to store urine. *
>
> This would make great sense,  for the following reasons:
>
>
>
> 1: People find odors from decomposition of urine and feces unpleasant,
> and will go to great lengths to dispose of these wastes at some distance
> from their living quarters.
>
> 2: In a Primitive Society, in the tropics, people would not want to go
> outside after dark to urinate and defecate, simply because of the
> presence of poisonous snakes, poisonous insects, and harmful animals.
>
> 3: They had the technology to make pottery jars and containers.
>
> 4: It would be very simple and convenient to use some of these pottery
> containers as "Chamber Pots" for use inside the home at night.
>
> 5: It would be very logical and convenient to have a larger pottery
> container outside the home for daily emptying of Chamber Pots into a
> ""Slop Pail" or larger pottery equivalent, such as a "Slop Pot.".
>
> 6: It would be very logical for the Home Owner to periodically empty the
> Slop Jar at some distance from the home.
>
> 7: After one or two growing seasons, it would be very obvious that "the
> grass was greener" and "things grew better" where Slop Jars had been
> previously emptied.
>
> 8: Primitive people would see immediate benefit from having disposed of
> their body wastes at a distance from their Homes, such immediate
> benefits the lack of flies, insects,  and unpleasant odors.
>
> 9: Porous pottery jars would be an excellent container for such body
> wastes, in that the evaporation by the leakage water would tend to cool
> the jars, extending the time the wastes could be stored before they
> became particularily offensive.
>
> 10: Once a pottery container had been used as a "Chamber Pot" or "Slop
> Pot", it could never be used again for storage of food or consumables,
> because of the unpleasant smell and salts that would be concentrated in
> the pottery, because of evaporation.
>
> 11: In very small communities, people would be reasonably close to their
> gardening area, and would likely dump their Slop Pots in their own fields.
>
> 12: In larger communities, where some people were not directly earning
> their living as Farmers, they would have a problem disposing of their
> daily wastes. It would be likely that some people would become "Slop Pot
> Disposers."
>
> 13: The relatively weak Slop Pots would be subject to frequent breakage.
> Breakage would be most likely during handling, but would be
> particularily likely to be broken when being dumped. It would be a
> difficult and unpleasant task to pick up the pottery shards for disposal
> elsewhere.
>
> 14: Initially, it would be likely that the large broken shards would be
> picked up and disposed of elsewhere, simply to avoid future tillage
> problems in teh fields. Because of absorbed "fertilizer salts and
> micro-organisms", it would soon become noticed that "the grass was
> greener" in areas where the pottery shards were disposed of.
>
> 15 Much simpler for the Disposer would be to simply break the larger
> shards into smaller shards that would not interfere with future tillage,
> and leave then in the fields where they broke. It would be an easy job
> for the Slop Disposer to sell the Farmer on the benefits of leaving the
> broken shards in the field, as an "aid to growth."
>
> 16: We are told that there were large Terra Preta fields and large
> Communities located near them. Disposal of human wastes on the nearby
> fields may have been the fundamental factor that enabled the Community
> to grow to the larger size for two very important reasons: A: The first
> and most obvious reason would be increased soil fertility and and
> abundant food supply, for both local consumption and for trading. B:
> Perhaps even more fundamentally important would be the the improved
> health and vigor of the People of the community as a result of improved
> sanitation.
>
> 17:  With a demand for Slop Pots and Chamber Pots, due to relatively
> frequent breakage, there would be an economic opportunity for Potters,
> to make and fire the pots. It would seem to be natural for the Slop
> Haulers to "vertically integrate" and establish their own Pottery Works.
>
> 18: It would thus seem that Terra Preta was one element in permitting
> the development of a larger community. It would appear to be a secondary
> element, in that teh sanitation benefit would permit a higher level of
> primary health, and and bountiful harvests from fertilized fields would
> permit sustenance of good health.
>
> 19: The Chinese are well known for their use of "night soil".
> Archaelogical studies of Chinese Society would probably show up the
> equivalent of "Chinese Terra Preta". Indeed, with historical migratory
> patterns, it may very well have been that "Terra Preta" was invented in
> China, and brought to "The New World" with migration of Asian People.
> It would be interesting indeed to trace back tom the origins of Fine
> Chinese Pottery.
>
> 20: This seems to tie together many things of importance to a Society,
> but it overlooks one ingredient in Terra Preta, that being char.
> Elemental carbon can be created by pyrolysis, and this is called "char"
> or "charcoal", but the essence of Terra Preta is not char or charcoal,
> but rather "Black Carbon", BC.
>
> 21: We know from bogs and swamps and lake bottoms that there is a
> mechanism where organic vegetative matter can  make the  transition
> from "organic  carbon" to a "black carbon" that is not further
> consumable  readily by soil or  bog or lake bottom organisms.  Some
> significant portion of the BC in Terra Preta Soils could very well have
> resulted from heavy application of Slops, which then gave a "fertile
> base from which to grow crops very successfully.
>
> 22: There would naturally be "profuse agricultural waste" from such
> profuse growth. This could indeed be a disposal problem, and fire is a
> very simple way of getting rid of bulky agricultural waste.
>
> 23: Additionally, we have the method suggested by Robert Kline for
> disposing of Maize Stocks.
>
> 24: It would be a simple extension for the Amazonians to project that
> "if some BC is good, then more is better". They could easily see that
> more charcoal = more black soil. In effect, they were "doing the right
> thing for the wrong reasons."
>
> 24: What they were doing by going to a bit of extra work by building the
> "char mounds" described by Robert, was providing much more Cationic
> Exchange Potential, save haven for soil micro-organisms, and the ability
> to capture and store excess nutrients for future use. Too much Slops in
> a given area would likely lead to "nutrient overload" condition.
>
> 25: The employment of Robert's Char Technology may have been a
> "de-bottlenecking" step that allowed yields from Slop treated soils to
> rise to an even higher level.
>
> 26: With "the benefit of 20-20 hindsight," we can see how TP could have
> evolved to yield a superior agricultural system from its roots as a
> waste disposal system.
>
> 27: An interesting but unrelated parallel ecosystem is that of
> Aquaponics, where "fish water" is applied to plants, and the "stripped
> water" is sent back to the fish pond. Originally, with Pond Aquaculture,
> and a lack of water, there was a limit to fish loading because of
> ammonia and nitrate buildup. Aquaculturists found that plants would
> remove teh ammonia from teh fish water, enabling them to grow more fish
> with less "new water." Then the Plant People ran with teh idea and
> started growing fish to get a second paying crop, and free fertilizer
> for their plants.
>
> Does this all hang together for you? Do you see any logic gaps or
> problems that would negate what is presented above?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>  someone in Community to take on the task of
>
>
>
>
> Saibhaskar Nakka wrote:
> > Dear All,
> >
> > I prefer and agree to collect the urine fresh from the source using
> > charcoal without loosing any value. Here is what I am doing.
> >
> > I requested my kids to urinate in the clay jars (~ 6 inches diameter
> > and ~10 inches height) with very fine holes (2mm dia) at the
> > bottom filled with charcoal produced from using Magh-1 woodgas stoves.
> > These jars are kept in the toilet are able to absorb about 200 ml of
> > urine (single time) easily with out any leakage at the bottom. Between
> > the intervals of urination of about 6 hours duration, the moisture is
> > reduced to some extent, but always wet and cool because of clay
> > jars. The total urine per day was around 500 ml. After about 10 days I
> > could smell something like ammonia from the jar, I thought now it has
> > reached saturation level. I kept the jar aside in a cool place to use
> > for experiments. I have not analysed for actual contents in this
> product.
> >
> > The advantages / ideas are:
> > The coolness of the clay jar reduced evaporation losses
> > Reduction of urine odor as charcoal is used, more acceptance to
> > collect urine fresh in the toilets, we can easily design urinals free
> > of smell, instead of using fresheners (napthaline balls, scents,
> > phenyl, etc) in the toilets.
> > The schools are the best places to get kids urine, disease free and no
> > medicines used.
> > No flies are seen sitting on the jars, but some big black ants seen to
> > enjoy drinking the urine spilled ? ?
> > And many other advantages as discussed earlier in the group.
> >
> > With regards,
> >
> > Dr. N. Sai Bhaskar Reddy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >             >   3. On the other hand, if you have aces to urine,
> >             >       from a source-separating toilet, or from a
> >             >       stable, it is a god idea to add it to fresh
> >             >       carcoal. It will be absorbed to a large extent
> >             >       (I don't have numbers here, does anybody have
> >             >       numbers on how much urine could be absorbed in
> >             >       charcoal?) Anyhow, the smell from a jar of urine
> >             >       will fade considerably when charcoal is added.
> >             >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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