[Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14
Sean K. Barry
sean.barry at juno.com
Mon Apr 7 20:16:39 CDT 2008
Hi Greg,
I see your point. When TP soil is mined and it grows back on the site, how does it do this without the addition of more charcoal?
This makes me wonder again, further, about what happens to TP soil that is mined and moved off the original site and out of that continuously feeding environment. Does that exported TP soil grow?
Regards,
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg and April<mailto:gregandapril at earthlink.net>
To: Terra Preta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14
I have a sneaking suspicion that TP has to reach a certain density level ( for lack of a better term ), before it becomes self sustaining, and a truck load or two, is not going to do it.
I also have a suspicion that the char does not necessarily have to be created in a thermal situation, and I'll tell you why.
Many years ago while in high school, I worked for a local store, and in that store was a pharmacy. Through the pharmacy I was able to obtain various chemicals, that I performed experiments with.
One of the chemicals I was able to obtain at that time was Potassium Permanganate ( nice stuff really - did a great job on the athletes foot I had at the time ), one of my experiments dealt with sealing a piece of wood ( aspen, about .75 x 1.5 inches ) in a old film canister, with a solution of water and potassium permanganate.
2 days later I opened the canister, and to my surprise, the wood was totally carbonized, and still sitting in solution.
Now that highly surprised me as I thought that heat was required to carbonize wood.
After an identical experiment ( with the same results ), I finally figured out that the reactive of the potassium permanganate, was due to a high level of oxidation potential, and chemical oxidation of wood could happen at room temperature, under certain circumstances.
Now, according to the folks that mine TP, they do not have to do anything for it to grow back on it's own ( at a rate of 1 cm a year ) - so where is the char coming from, when the TP "grows" back?
See what I'm getting at? I flat out refuse to come right out and say it, because it goes against plenty that I learned in school.
This suspicion is so vague at this point - I am sure that I'm only touching the edges of it, and I have no idea how to prove or disprove it, but it goes along with that idea that once a certain level has been achieved, it becomes a self sustaining ( if slow ) process.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
To: Terra Preta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; Greg and April<mailto:gregandapril at earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 17:22
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14
Hi Greg,
It makes some sense except for the part where the charcoal moves beyond the borders of where it was laid down. I like the "Desertification in reverse". Human who mine it move it though. I wonder if mined Terra Preta remains self-sustaining in all environments. I'd guess not, but I don't know.
Regards,
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg and April<mailto:gregandapril at earthlink.net>
To: Terra Preta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14
Who says that it hasn't spread? It may not be very fast, but maybe that's why in some areas, the TP soil is very thin and has few shards.
Remember that it regenerates it's self, at the rate of 1 cm a year, so if it's spreading, I doubt that it spreads any faster - even if it was fully established 4500 yrs ago, it's probably not going to be much further than 45 meters from where it started.
Let's see if I can make this make a little more sense.
If you start planting trees, in the middle of a grassland, eventually ( with enough trees ) you can end up reaching a point where you change the local climate, and the forest becomes self sustaining.
Another way to think about it, might be Desertification in reverse. Planting trees, and other plants to trap the sand, reducing the spread of dunes. Eventually you get to a point that the drought tolerant plants are able to keep enough moisture to support plants that need more water - and so on.
I think that TP soil, might be the point that it's able to regenerate on it's own, and if it can regenerate on it's own, there is little reason not to believe that it can actually grow beyond it's original borders, because as the plants grow, some of the mulch, ( of the plants ) will fall beyond it's original borders, enriching the soil to the point where it to, is able to renew it's self. This would be a top -> down process, where the top of the soil is improved first, and slowly the humus builds up, enriching the soil.
Does this make sense to you?
Greg H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; Greg and April<mailto:gregandapril at earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:08
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14
Hi Greg,
I think that it is only where charcoal-in-soil was put. If it spreads, why hasn't it in 4500 years? How can we find individual sites now, closely spaced?
Regards,
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg and April<mailto:gregandapril at earthlink.net>
To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14
I think we do need to understand the origins of Terra Preta - at least in part to understand the mechanics of how it has become self sustaining, and wither or not the science behind it would be useful in other places.
What clues can we find? Other than pottery shards and the physical / structural makeup of the char, there is not much else that I know of due to the nature of the area.
You are correct, that studying the nature of the mined TP might give a few more clues.
Why is it self sustaining? Personally I think that it's a matter of achieving a given nutrient density and CEC level after which the density of the plant life is able to keep it going.
What I would like to know is it able to spread or is it just confined to the areas of human influence.
Greg H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
To: 'Nikolaus Foidl'<mailto:nfoidl at desa.com.bo> ; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> ; MFH<mailto:mfh01 at bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 0:40
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14
Dear All,
Is understanding the true origins of Terra Preta de Indio absolutely necessary in order to form Terra Preta Nova?
If we examine known sites containing Terra Preta now, what clues can we take from the sites as to what is there that is working and then how can we export that effect to other sites. What happens to TP soil that is mined and sold to be put onto another site or in pots? Does that soil retain or grow its properties on the new site?
I don't think finding the root mechanism for the buildup of Terra Preta formations 4500 years ago is really necessary to do this.
Regards,
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: MFH<mailto:mfh01 at bigpond.net.au>
To: 'Nikolaus Foidl'<mailto:nfoidl at desa.com.bo> ; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14
Well said Nikolaus.
I've lived in Papua New Guinea for 40 years and understand your reasoning.
To the surprise of many, 'formal' agriculture can be traced back at least
8000 years in the Wahgi Valley of PNG.
I tend to favour the argument that the TP soils are not the result of
deliberate and planned char production and distribution.
Max Henderson
-----Original Message-----
From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org>
[mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Nikolaus Foidl
Sent: Monday, 7 April 2008 11:33 AM
To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Terrapreta Digest, Vol 15, Issue 14
Dear All¨
I live in Bolivia on a farm and next to our farm are several small
indigenous villages or house gatherings where the original people still live
as they did hundreds of years ago. They have, as we have a certain need to
clean the houses from trash and the main place and the surroundings of the
houses. Everything starting with rests of fruits and gardening as well rests
of food and cooking is thrown into a pit in the backyard. Nowadays some have
chicken and pigs so part of those thrown away organic materials are still
taken as food from those animals what did not happen before the Spanish
arrived because they had no chicken and pigs before. The fires which burn
all day and long into the night to spook the mosquitoes away produce huge
amounts of badly burned rests and ashes. The simple pottery they use are a
short life pottery, they fall down, the dogs or pigs or children brake it,
the pottery is not very heat resistant so brake easily when put into fire
with something cooking in it etc. so there is a good amount of broken
pottery a day in the village which as well is thrown into the trash pit in
the backyard. The defecation as well is done next to the pit and thrown into
it, to clean their ass, leaves and corncobs are the most used items which as
well end up in the pit. So if you have a closer look at the content of the
pit then you see that's an accumulation of a lot of minerals like potassium,
phosphorus, nitrogen, magnesium ,calcium etc. If you do a mass balance over
100 years or more its a simple mineral dump because with all that rain the
organics after 3 to 6 weeks are all eaten up by bacteria and fungi and what
is left is slower degrading bones from animals, lignin and some cellulose.
After 500 years in such high water and high temperature environments even
the bones and lignin etc . Are irecognizeable mineralized .
So there is no meaningful wise man or ethnic which studied how to rise the
fertility of the soils , no complicated thinking about cationic exchange
capacity or nitrogen influence in crop production etc. it is as simple as it
can get it is a series of dumpsters with over time interconnected. Those
people had and still have several village like compounds which they visit
regularly what means when the population of eat able animals is down due to
over hunting they simply move on some kilometers and stay in the next place
one or two seasons and after several years they come back to always the same
places and erect again some very primitive housings and the cycle starts
over again.
You have to have in mind that under these conditions where you spend 95% of
your time for surviving and where everybody has the same workload just to
survive there is not much room for experiments and development. That's the
reason why they are still 5000 years back in there social and human
developement.Untill they develope a social network with different functions
for different social groups in the village they wont have people freed from
the dally workload of surviving so they can dedicate time for development of
the same group.
If somebody will have a look at our dumpsters in some 2000 years from now
the same esoteric discussion about the deeper meaning of accumulating things
in the dumpster will happen. What do you think why did the accumulate flat
glass peaces and half round glass peaces so evenly distributed in the
surrounding soil? Is it possible that they had a growing system where they
avoided humidity loss from the soil covering the soil around the plants with
different types of glasses, did they filter out different damaging light
waves with different colors? And reality is : its a dumpster where we throw
our waste in without thinking very much about the consequences.
That's it , don't interpret things in terra preta which never where there,
its a dumpster.
Best regards Nikolaus
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