[Terrapreta] maybe controversial

[lou gold]

Jim,

Well, reading your response does make me think that you are a man of strong
beliefs.

No, I am not diminishing anything when I say that egos and beliefs are
tools. What is at issue is not whether we have them but rather how we use
them. Right now we are hammering the earth. I think you would agree with
that statement and not call it a "badly fallacious analogy," or would you?
You see, it all depends on how something is (or is not) used. So I will go
back my analogy: a good carpenter knows when not to use his hammer and a
good scientist is careful about what his discovery is used for. In the final
analysis his choice will require wisdom more than knowledge. And what he
considers as wise will be very influenced by his beliefs. There no getting
around it. So I truly believe that it is better to openly share one's
beliefs and reveal their implications in action so that we might better
understand whether to use them or not.

And there is nothing at all wrong with "wish" as you have expressed it
(close to a "desire"), Ghandi famously said, "We must be the change that we
desire." Yes, this is indeed "be-lief." St Francis said the same in another
way, "It is more blessed to give than to receive." And little me wishes a
future full of big trees and happy children, so I must be here saying these
things. You are correct, my "be-wish" is not knowledge but it guides my
search and hopefully leads me to it. Do you really wish to make this beacon
dim? What would you use instead?

If I say, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" it might (and has historically)
lead to wars and slaughter. But if I say that and also say, "We are all
Children of God" the outcome is quite different. And the difference that
makes the difference in this case is ... belief! If properly used and
understood, what a glorious thing it is!

But there's a limit (as you suggest). It's not good to get too attached to
your beliefs because then you will take them "personally" and THAT is where
the mischief begins. Buddha saw this clearly and therefore counseled for "no
attachment" rather than "no belief." And as this detachment develops it
becomes, yes, just like a hammer that one can pick up or put down as is
appropriate to the situation. It's called "right action." And that is
precisely what I BELIEVE we are all looking for.

A bow of gratitude to you (and this forum) for allowing me to "spout off" a
bit. Apologies if there was (is) any offense in my words.

hugs and blessings,

lou







On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Jim Joyner <jimstoy at dtccom.net> wrote:

>  Lou,
>
> I would agree that beliefs abound; I would not agree that they are
> necessary for human life, certainly not survival. They rather seem an
> anathema to life to me. To say, "egos and beliefs, like other tools such as
> hammers, are only tools" is to use a badly fallacious analogy.
>
> Please don't confuse knowledge with beliefs. Knowledge *is* necessary for
> humans to survive, and difficult enough, But belief (whether correct or
> incorrect) is bound to something purely personal, and I mean that in the
> worst sense. ("Person" or "personal" comes from persona, a mask, a false
> front, the ego -- in a sense something that doesn't really exist except in
> thought. At best an illusion, at worst a delusion. The root word in belief
> is "lief" or wish. To say I believe is to say I be-wish . . . not a
> statement of knowledge)
>
> If I say, "the sun is coming up at 6:30AM", that is simply a statement of
> content that may be right or wrong : knowledge. It is not who I think I am.
> One can easily disagree with knowledge as right or wrong . . . if that is
> all it is, then no one will care.
>
> If, however, I say, I *believe* that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the
> content of the statement isn't really the issue (right or wrong, rational or
> irrational). What is being stated is who I think I am. If that statement is
> threatened (disagreed upon), it is the same a as death threat to the speaker
> -- and he/she will fight as if death itself were at the door. Given
> legitimate use of weapons (gov't), he/she will dominate other life by force.
> Never fails. No exceptions. Just look around.
>
> To put beliefs on a level with "tools such as hammers" is to be Neville
> Chamberlain holding up a piece of paper signed by Hitler and saying, "you
> see, everything will be alright, they simply see things differently that we
> do".
>
> Jim
>
> lou gold wrote:
>
> yes, yes belief is only belief. like ego it is a necessary tool for
> survival. just try to function without any beliefs (such as crossing a
> street is potentially dangerous).
>
> but egos and beliefs, like other tools such as hammers, are only tools. it
> is important to know when not to use them.
>
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Jim Joyner <jimstoy at dtccom.net> wrote:
>
> > Probably, the most dangerous commodity on the face of the planet is
> > human belief systems. Not their content necessarily (which may or may not be
> > correct), but just act of the believing, ultimately an expression of ego.
> >
> > The worst of such belief systems are argued with the notion that logic
> > makes them valid. They conveniently forget that all knowledge is based on
> > assumptions or axioms, and that the quality of all thought (and probably the
> > quality of human life) rests on the quality of assumptions made. They start
> > with a belief, then they use the rational facility to justify it. Religions,
> > governments and political ideologies come to mind. Sometimes, science. Some
> > belief systems seem more innocuous than others. But, it may be they just
> > don't have the guns yet to enforce the belief.
> >
> > These belief systems have been and are the source of practically all
> > human suffering on the planet, not to mention the innocent bystander
> > species.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
>
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