[Terrapreta] maybe controversial

[lou gold]

Sean,

That's exactly what I said -- "Light is BOTH a particle AND a wave."  (At
the end of my first paragraph.) But you didn't respond the the issue that I
raised -- "we now need BOTH belief AND science."

lou


On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Sean K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com> wrote:

>  Lou,
>
> Light is BOTH a particle AND a wave.  Believe it or not.  Believers make
> the miracles of modern electronics and optics happen.
>
> But if you believed it is a particle, you designed an experiment and found
> it to be a wave.
>
> If you did this, then the good scientists in you ought to stop believing
> it is a particle anymore.
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* lou gold <lou.gold at gmail.com>
> *To:* Sean K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com>
> *Cc:* Jim Joyner <jimstoy at dtccom.net> ; Terra Preta<terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:19 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] maybe controversial
>
> Hi Sean,
>
> I guess in old-school science we might separate science and belief -- sort
> of make it a matter of EITHER science OR belief. But this won't work.
>
> They tried that with light thinking it was EITHER a particle OR a wave. If
> you believed it is a wave, you designed an appropriate experiment, tested
> your hypothesis, and discovered that it's a wave. But if you believed it is
> a particle, you designed an experiment and found it to be a wave. It drove
> them nuts until they realized that the logical paradigm of EITHER/OR was too
> limited to answer the question. So they transcended the contradiction with
> an emergent logic of BOTH/AND. Light is BOTH a particle AND a wave.
>
> I think that we have arrived at an analogous position with regard to the
> new earth challenges that exponential population growth has produced. It
> didn't matter too much what people believed when there were few of us. But
> know it matters a great deal -- precisely, because belief triggers behavior.
> The fight of science vs belief belongs with Galileo.  That was  the
> high-profile EITHER/OR  situation.  But times have changed and now we need
> to think in terms of BOTH belief AND science. IMHO, this this the step we
> are now trying to take. And, just as with the problem of light, we need to
> BOTH believe AND employ the scientific method.
>
> I don't expend much energy (near zero) on the AGW debate because I believe
> there are additional serious questions such as where are 9 billion people
> going to get enough drinking water, where will the plants that feed them get
> enough water, and etc? We, the collective WE on this planet have stepped
> into a whole new experiment. Now we must BOTH believe that our behavior
> matters AND that we can implement the right actions. This is what I think
> Gore was talking about.
>
> And so, once again someone has given me a chance to spout off. Thank you
> Sean and thank you to those willing to endure such a flow of words.
>
> hugs and blessings to all,
>
> lou
>
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 6:31 PM, Sean K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com>
> wrote:
>
> >  Hi Lou,
> >
> > I think it might be worthwhile to separate science from beliefs.  No
> > scientists' that I know conduct themselves upon belief nearly as much as
> > they use the Scientific Method.  This method is born almost as a way to
> > operate sans belief.  The wisdom of scientists is not at issue either.  The
> > IPCC scientists do not make policy (maybe some policy recommendations in
> > there area of research).
> >
> > Some will say the "Scientific Method" is flawed.  They are right.  In
> > the realm of observable real world phenomenon, that are all measurable
> > without the aid of the human belief system, I think that the "Scientific
> > Method" serves mankind better than our beliefs.  I will suspend my belief
> > and/or disbelief to use my 5 sense faculties, my mind, and my hands, to try
> > and effect a change in what I observe happening in the world.  I think this
> > makes me appear to be a "strong believer" in the validity of the "Scientific
> > Method", though.
> >
> > Hehe ... see, so can I use my belief as a tool, too?  To what end?  To
> > try and convince anyone who disbelieves about the science that I think I
> > understand?  Ahhhhh ... I can't do it ... no one cares what I believe!  I'd
> > rather not discuss this in terms of beliefs.  I've got not problem with
> > anyone's beliefs (unless of course they are into proselytizing and/or
> > ramming it into my head).
> >
> > I reject belief as a tool for climate scientists.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > SKB
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* lou gold <lou.gold at gmail.com>
> > *To:* Jim Joyner <jimstoy at dtccom.net>
> > *Cc:* Terra Preta <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> >  *Sent:* Saturday, April 12, 2008 3:50 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] maybe controversial
> >
> >  Jim,
> >
> > Well, reading your response does make me think that you are a man of
> > strong beliefs.
> >
> > No, I am not diminishing anything when I say that egos and beliefs are
> > tools. What is at issue is not whether we have them but rather how we use
> > them. Right now we are hammering the earth. I think you would agree with
> > that statement and not call it a "badly fallacious analogy," or would you?
> > You see, it all depends on how something is (or is not) used. So I will go
> > back my analogy: a good carpenter knows when not to use his hammer and a
> > good scientist is careful about what his discovery is used for. In the final
> > analysis his choice will require wisdom more than knowledge. And what he
> > considers as wise will be very influenced by his beliefs. There no getting
> > around it. So I truly believe that it is better to openly share one's
> > beliefs and reveal their implications in action so that we might better
> > understand whether to use them or not.
> >
> > And there is nothing at all wrong with "wish" as you have expressed it
> > (close to a "desire"), Ghandi famously said, "We must be the change that we
> > desire." Yes, this is indeed "be-lief." St Francis said the same in another
> > way, "It is more blessed to give than to receive." And little me wishes a
> > future full of big trees and happy children, so I must be here saying these
> > things. You are correct, my "be-wish" is not knowledge but it guides my
> > search and hopefully leads me to it. Do you really wish to make this beacon
> > dim? What would you use instead?
> >
> > If I say, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" it might (and has
> > historically) lead to wars and slaughter. But if I say that and also say,
> > "We are all Children of God" the outcome is quite different. And the
> > difference that makes the difference in this case is ... belief! If properly
> > used and understood, what a glorious thing it is!
> >
> > But there's a limit (as you suggest). It's not good to get too attached
> > to your beliefs because then you will take them "personally" and THAT is
> > where the mischief begins. Buddha saw this clearly and therefore counseled
> > for "no attachment" rather than "no belief." And as this detachment develops
> > it becomes, yes, just like a hammer that one can pick up or put down as is
> > appropriate to the situation. It's called "right action." And that is
> > precisely what I BELIEVE we are all looking for.
> >
> > A bow of gratitude to you (and this forum) for allowing me to "spout
> > off" a bit. Apologies if there was (is) any offense in my words.
> >
> > hugs and blessings,
> >
> > lou
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Jim Joyner <jimstoy at dtccom.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Lou,
> > >
> > > I would agree that beliefs abound; I would not agree that they are
> > > necessary for human life, certainly not survival. They rather seem an
> > > anathema to life to me. To say, "egos and beliefs, like other tools such as
> > > hammers, are only tools" is to use a badly fallacious analogy.
> > >
> > > Please don't confuse knowledge with beliefs. Knowledge *is* necessary
> > > for humans to survive, and difficult enough, But belief (whether correct or
> > > incorrect) is bound to something purely personal, and I mean that in the
> > > worst sense. ("Person" or "personal" comes from persona, a mask, a false
> > > front, the ego -- in a sense something that doesn't really exist except in
> > > thought. At best an illusion, at worst a delusion. The root word in belief
> > > is "lief" or wish. To say I believe is to say I be-wish . . . not a
> > > statement of knowledge)
> > >
> > > If I say, "the sun is coming up at 6:30AM", that is simply a statement
> > > of content that may be right or wrong : knowledge. It is not who I think I
> > > am. One can easily disagree with knowledge as right or wrong . . . if that
> > > is all it is, then no one will care.
> > >
> > > If, however, I say, I *believe* that Jesus Christ is the son of God,
> > > the content of the statement isn't really the issue (right or wrong,
> > > rational or irrational). What is being stated is who I think I am. If that
> > > statement is threatened (disagreed upon), it is the same a as death threat
> > > to the speaker -- and he/she will fight as if death itself were at the door.
> > > Given legitimate use of weapons (gov't), he/she will dominate other life by
> > > force. Never fails. No exceptions. Just look around.
> > >
> > > To put beliefs on a level with "tools such as hammers" is to be
> > > Neville Chamberlain holding up a piece of paper signed by Hitler and saying,
> > > "you see, everything will be alright, they simply see things differently
> > > that we do".
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > lou gold wrote:
> > >
> > > yes, yes belief is only belief. like ego it is a necessary tool for
> > > survival. just try to function without any beliefs (such as crossing a
> > > street is potentially dangerous).
> > >
> > > but egos and beliefs, like other tools such as hammers, are only
> > > tools. it is important to know when not to use them.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Jim Joyner <jimstoy at dtccom.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Probably, the most dangerous commodity on the face of the planet is
> > > > human belief systems. Not their content necessarily (which may or may not be
> > > > correct), but just act of the believing, ultimately an expression of ego.
> > > >
> > > > The worst of such belief systems are argued with the notion that
> > > > logic makes them valid. They conveniently forget that all knowledge is based
> > > > on assumptions or axioms, and that the quality of all thought (and probably
> > > > the quality of human life) rests on the quality of assumptions made. They
> > > > start with a belief, then they use the rational facility to justify it.
> > > > Religions, governments and political ideologies come to mind. Sometimes,
> > > > science. Some belief systems seem more innocuous than others. But, it may be
> > > > they just don't have the guns yet to enforce the belief.
> > > >
> > > > These belief systems have been and are the source of practically all
> > > > human suffering on the planet, not to mention the innocent bystander
> > > > species.
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
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>


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