[Terrapreta] Carbon tax

[Mark Ludlow]

Hi Sean,

If farmers can be subsidized for growing nothing at all, why is the notion
that they could receive "carbon credits" so hard to imagine?

Mark

 

From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
[mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Sean K. Barry
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 2:04 PM
To: Terra Preta; Jim Joyner
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Carbon tax

 

Hi Jim,

 

I don't think I'm saying the US government needs to be involved with farmers
more.  The US government can be less involved for all I care.  There is not
going to be a way to earn "carbon credits" in this country, even if some new
president signs the Kyoto Protocol.  The US is a developed, Annex I,
industrialized country.  They pay "carbon credits" or they reduce CO2
emissions or they do both, but they cannot earn "carbon credits" under the
current Kyoto Protocol treaty.  Farmers in the US will never earn "carbon
credits", I don't think.

 

Regards,

 

SKB

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Jim Joyner <mailto:jimstoy at dtccom.net>  

To: Terra Preta <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>  

Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 8:57 AM

Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Carbon tax

 

Sean, If I might add a little more to the below. . .

You know I do not like government and that must make me sound awfully
cynical (you even accused me of being a cynic). What I say comes from long
experience with farmers and the government.

I grew up in south and west Texas. Early on, under the Carter administration
the processing sheds and a few large citrus farms we bought. The USDA
created a market order that forced all citrus farmers to process their fruit
through the sheds and receive what the sheds paid. Well, the same companies
that owned the sheds then sold to themselves from the farms they owned. They
established the "market price" essentially at their cost -- thus operating
the farms at break even, making their profits in the sheds. Of course, this
made it impossible for the independent farmers to make a profit.  The
farmers were left with two choices: sell their land to the AG companies or
to housing developers. But there are virtually no farmers there any more.

President Carter essentially said this was a good thing as it gave him
better control over agriculture.

When I was in high school in west Texas (late 50s), cotton farmers were
under an allotment system because it guaranteed them a market. I argued then
that farmers were foolish to be on this welfare system. Today, none of those
farmers or their families farm are there. It's all AG corporations.

All those farming communities are gone, not because they were inefficient or
couldn't compete, it's just that they were deemed a political expedient --
and they are gone. The same process on a larger scale is going on between
large American AG business and the world's farmers. 

So I look on with horror as I watch you talk about getting farmers once
again involved with the government. This scheme to credit tax credits and
carbon taxes are part and parcel of the same movement to establish control
of agriculture (maybe all business) throughout the world. I can only
speculate at the overall purpose and even if it consciously being done. I'm
doubtful that the process can be stopped. But I do know it can't happen with
out gov't force. I am warning you like I warned the farmers in south and
west Texas, that if you enter into a pact with thieves, don't expect to do
well unless you are willing to be one of them.

Jim

Jim Joyner wrote: 

Sean,

Are you telling me that businesses worldwide are going to get together
voluntarily and create this trading system under the "guidance" if the UN?

For carbon trading to take place, gov'ts much put in place a tax and/or they
must also make provisions for tax credits, essentially, to create an
artificial market. That process will be political and you can bet the folks
who contribute most to their politicians will do the best.

Jim

Sean K. Barry wrote: 

Hi Jim,

 

Why do you associate "carbon trading"  with "carbon credits" as US
government interference?  The Kyoto Protocol and the IPCC are under UN
auspices.  When did the government of the US control the UN?  We do not even
pay our dues, let alone dictate UN policy.  The United Nations is not a
government that can or does put a gun to the heads of anyone, do they?

 

Regards,

 

SKB

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Jim Joyner <mailto:jimstoy at dtccom.net>  

To: Terra Preta <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>  

Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 9:41 PM

Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Carbon tax

 

Greg,

All I said was that the US gov't and the various state governments have
denied and continue to deny, for what ever purpose, equity before the law
(specifically, by making it illegal to bring class action suits with regard
to the environment and, before that, to deny access to the courts on matters
of simple environmental changes) and is very much at the heart of the
problems we have. As a people we have very little recourse except through a
politicized EPA. 

My concern is not so much that we have lost something dear (because I have
not expectations of it being returned) but that it is naive to think this
same gov't is going to somehow start remedying real problems with carbon
taxes/carbon credits. It is more likely to just create another useless
bureaucracy that will makes things worse still.

I mean, look at the agricultural "program" in the US. We have a farm welfare
system that subsidizes the the biggest, wealthiest and least productive (in
the real sense) farmers in the US to produce, e.g., products that would be
much cheaper and cleaner to purchase in other countries (e.g., ethanol).
This in turn distorts not only the US market by driving food costs up, but
the world market by robbing third world countries of the ability to compete
and earn a right living. And all this from a gov't that is essentially
bankrupt in a country that only produces 90% of what it consumes. 

And we are suppose to think that creating yet another gov't boondoggle
(carbon credits/taxes) is going to make things better? 

Subsidize stupidity and you simply get more of it.

Jim


_______________________________________________
Terrapreta mailing list
Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org
http://info.bioenergylists.org

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /attachments/20080419/72fba944/attachment.html