[Terrapreta] What fixed "acid rain" is what is working in the Kyoto Protocol

[gordon eliott]

well perhaps carbon trading is so complex so that nobody can understand it.
the basic priciple is that big organisations get to be paid large sums of
money for what they might have been about to do.
the futures market is pretty wild - but imagine this, the conditional
pluperfect market. thats going to take some real smarts. it will even be
difficult to find out who is creaming it in.

and all based on this CO2 theory of global warming that is fast losing
scientific credibilty. there might well be overwhelming media support for
the theories of a few climate modelers but that is not the issue. evidence
is the issue. lets see some predictions come true before we slush trillions
to the next incarnation of those derivatives dealers.

best wishes to you all
gordon eliott



On 22/04/2008, Mary Lehmann <mlehmann3 at austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Sean,, I thought we paid low carbon emitters so that we could be high
> carbon emitters.  I really never did understand about carbon caps and
> credits.  Is there some article I can read that gets down to basics?  It
> always seemed to me that the people who owned the air commons were the
> public who had to breathe the air, so that emitting rights should be paid to
> them (us) but instead of selling them we could tear them up or use them
> ourselves if we are polluting, say by driving.  I.E. the whole thing seems a
> mish-mash of distributing ill-defined rights to big pollutors as if they
> owned the air commons by consent of the government.  Familiar.  Please clear
> up my confusion if you can.
>
> Mary
> ====================================================================================
>
>  On Apr 17, 2008, at 4:39 PM, Sean K. Barry wrote:
>
>  Hi Gerrit,
>
> Did you know that the solution to the "acid rain" problem in the Upper
> Midwest of the US, was accomplished on a program of paying and trading in
> "emissions credits" between and among emitters?  Did you also know that
> elements of the Kyoto Protocol were developed based upon this proven working
> model?
>
> Coal fired power plants in the Upper Midwest of the US were known to be
> emitting high concentrations of sulfur oxides (SOx) and nitrous
> oxides(NOx).  Knowledge of this was by a simple, fast, chemical analysis of
> smokestack gas contents (unless you can't believe that gas chromatographs
> and mass spectrometers actually can work).   Lakes in area down wind from
> the plants were acidified, with no known natural source for the
> pronounced reductions in pH.  It was "killing" lakes that had existed in
> nature for millennia.  It was predicted by the models of air movement in the
> areas surrounding the coal fired power plants (simple geo/climate analysis),
> that the emissions could be the possible source for the acid buildup.
>
> The scientists thought that the emissions from coal fired power plants
> CAUSED "acid rain", because they said SOx and NOx in a rainstorm will
> combine with H2O to make Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) and Nitric acid (HNO3).  This
> was a well supported hypothesis then, too, like AGW.  The ACTION of cleaning
> up the "acid rain" was the experiment, because it was predicted by the
> scientists, that "scrubbing" the emissions from coal fired power plants
> would STOP the acidification of local lakes.  The acidification needed to be
> STOPPED!  Somehow this was obvious to everyone (scientists included), so the
> ACTION to experiment with their prediction was funded and commenced.
>
> The protocol for that experiment, which was done, also, at the same time,
> was simple; immediately to try and to fix the "acid rain" problem based on
> what the scientists said.  Emitters of SOx/NOx emissions had to pay into a
> fund (an Emissions Reduction Fund), prorated on their emissions, and until
> they ceased emissions.  The fund's "emissions credits", were then used
> exclusively by the same emitter companies to pay for developing the
> technology and putting SOx/NOx "scrubbing" equipment into their own plants.
> ALL of the companies had to share the "scrubber" technology with one another
> until the coal power plants of ALL companies were retrofitted.
>
> Because of the payments needed to the fund continued operations without
> "scrubber" technology, the companies operating the coal power plants had a
> strong economic incentive to do something about SOx/NOx emissions.  They
> also had access the funds to do that something.  When the retrofit was
> complete, then payments to the fund ended, so they ALL knew what to do.
>
> This program WORKED!  Acidification in the areas around the "scrubber"
> retrofitted plants STOPPED immediately when the emissions of SOx/NOx dropped
> and has not returned.
>
> Some of the competition were EARNING (unfairly, it was thought) "emissions
> credits" for having to put in "scrubber" technology when they were building
> a new plant and getting to pay for it from the fund (like China and India
> building ... new ... coal ... fired ... power ...plants!).  There was a lot
> of pissing and moaning going on around then about the ACTIONS that were
> mandated.  I think this program was set up by a US judge in a class action
> suit or an EPA suit.  The Canadians had a similar problem on the north side
> of the Great Lakes and some of the companies were on both sides.
>
> What the Kyoto Protocol does is ask developed nations (emitters) to pay
> into a "Atmospheric Carbon Reductions Fund" and to develop CO2 sequestering
> technology and share it with developing nations.  The value of the "carbon
> credits" in the fund will increase as the developed world enlarges the fund
> and the investment begins to work towards meeting the carbon reductions
> objective.  It is important that we develop "CO2 scrubbing" technology here
> in the developed US, but it is equally, if not more important, that we get
> that technology into the coal fired power plants in places like China, who
> is a very fast developing country.
>
> This Kyoto Protocol isn't about only "equal treatment" of ALL parties.  It
> levels things and applies "fair treatment" to ALL parties, depending on
> their participation in the problem, the solution, the places where growth in
> more problems is possible and preventable, and the on the impacts to ALL
> people.  Some people can, will, and should bear some financial burden, so
> that others may not suffer some more harse burdens like, heatstroke,
> homelessness, thirst, drowning, starvation, loss of family, or loss of life.
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
>
> The Kyoto Protocol "carbon credits" are designed to be the same thing as
> the, to do the same thing, and provide the same incentives and ACTIONS, etc.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Gerald Van Koeverden <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>
> *To:* terra pretta group <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 17, 2008 2:48 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] Earthen Kiln Conjecture
>
>
> Global warming or not, air pollution is causing all kinds of pulmonary and
> other diseases both in people, animals and plants; ... remember acid rain?
>
> And as developing countries get more wealth, they too will follow in our
> footsteps...and make our collective 'footprint' on the environment that much
> bigger.
>
>
> We have to figure out how we are going to not only feed more people with
> less land and more expensive inputs, but also facilitate their travel,
> electrical generation, etc. such that our footprint doesn't get so big that
> we destroy ourselves in an ocean and sky of our own poisons.
>
>
> Right now we are doing a terrible job.  The cash register still rings
> louder than the pleas of those trying to keep earth livable.
>
>
> Gerrit.
>
> On 17-Apr-08, at 11:07 AM, gordon eliott wrote:
>
> yes terra preta is fascinating in itself.
> and yes for anyone interested in climate remediation, may i suggest:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLkze-9GcI&feature=related
>
> best wishes
> gordon eliott
>
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