[Terrapreta] CO2 in the oceans

[Kevin Chisholm]

Dear Wayne


Thanks very much for your reasoned reply. 

You make the observation: "We need to know if biochar can improve soil quality and sequester carbon." That, to me, is what the TP List is all about. 

We already know that TP can sequester carbon... all that is necessary now is to determine if TP can improve soil quality, and how to best make and use it under various local circumstances. It puzzles me greatly how much discussion there is on Climate Change at the expense of discussion on TP. All this discussion on Climate Change is not bringing us one step closer "....to determine if TP can improve soil quality, and how to best make and use it under various local circumstances...." Terra Preta will rise or fall on its own merits, regardless if we are entering a period of Global Warming or Global Cooling.

Having said that, the Climate Change Issue has taken on a life of its own. On both sides of the issue (GW or GC) there are competent and sincere people wanting to do "the right thing." Also, there are people who stand to make huge sums of money if GC is accepted to the point where Legislation is implemented to counter the effects of atmospheric CO2.

Plainly and simply, "Consensus Science" is not "Science." In valid Science, there is no need for consensus. The facts speak for themselves, and eliminate the need for "faith", "belief", and "trust. In the absence of fact, there is a valid basis for trust, faith, belief, trust AND dissent. 

We know for a fact that GW ALWAYS precedes GC, and we know that GC ALWAYS precedes GW. The only question is "When do we switch from "Warming Mode" to "Cooling Mode"? In that 1997 or 1998 was the hottest year on record, and that all subsequent years were cooler, with the trend aiming downward, one could already make a case that average Global Temperature has peaked, and we are now entering a GC period.

Hansen may indeed be a competent and sincere and well meaning Scientist. The fact remains that if it was necessary for Gore to mess with real data in order to arrive at the conclusion he wants, if Hansen arrived at the same conclusion using different data, then they are both wrong.

Best wishes,

Kevin




----- Original Message ----- 
From: teelws at jmu.edu 
To: Kevin Chisholm ; David Yarrow ; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org 
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] CO2 in the oceans


Kevin, David and All,

Belief and trust in science are generally founded on following a rigorous set of methods designed to eliminate bias and get at an empirical evaluation of a particular phenomenon.  This rigor is then judged by a peer group of scientists in a refereed system that attempts with vigor to weed out junk science and only allow to be published the material that passes muster.  James Hansen is one scientist who has done this with regularity.  His "opinions" are based on considered judgment based on rigorous scientific principles.  Thus the "trust" has a foundation in broad community assessment based upon the principle of doubt.  Scientists are skeptics at their core.  Thus when the community reaches approximate consensus it ought not be ignored or rejected.

Having read Hanson's work, and the work of such climate change skeptics as Patrick Michaels, I am convince that James Hanson and the IPCC do much better work.  Michaels and the climate skeptics generally rely on older data, sometimes vetted, sometimes not, that now lacks scientific community credibility.  For us readers of terrapreta this credibility is very important.  We need to know if biochar can improve soil quality and sequester carbon.  Drs. Lehmann and Steiner have the kind of credibility in the science community that Hanson has, which is why we tend to go back to their work as the foundation for our own efforts to prove the efficacy of biochar in other soils.  Rejecting the scientific community's general premise puts us in danger of looking ridiculous and finding ourselves trapped by unintended consequences.  We do need to exercise caution and not create more problems than we are attempting to solve.

On the other hand, accepting the fact that Hanson is correct, we need to move fast.  The planet shows strong signs of ill-health and we are the likely cause.  Terrapreta is one arrow in our quiver that looks good, especially since it improves poor quality soils (I am not saying yet that it is beneficial in high quality, high organic matter soils) and has potential to sequester carbon.  Our task, at least as I see it, is to make sure that terrapreta works, is produced in a manner that "does not harm" and can be replicated widely by people in a diverse number of climates, regions, and economic conditions.  

My own minor experimenting indicates that biochar I made from waste wood in a wood stove, improves germination and early growth rates in swiss chard, but some design flaws in the experiment made it unpublishable.  I plan to improve the design, based in part on what I have read on this list and in published materials, and see if these initial observations are valid.  Good science will be the foundation of our success.  Therefore it is imperative that we have a good understanding of what good science is.  Hanson, in my judgment, is a good scientist.

Wayne Teel

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:46:42 -0300
>From: "Kevin Chisholm" <kchisholm at ca.inter.net>  
>Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] CO2 in the oceans  
>To: "David Yarrow" <dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>, <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>
>   Dear David
>    
>   Why is the Climate Change issue being judged on the
>   basis of "belief" and "trust"?
>    
>   If Gore finds that it is necessary to distort ice
>   core data in order to get the conclusion he wants,
>   and if Hansen arrives at the same conclusion as Gore
>   could only arrive at by distorting data, logic would
>   say that Hansen is wrong also.
>    
>   That is what is scary about "Consensus Science". 
>   Charismatic promoters that are not constrained by
>   truth and fact can take an issue wherever they want
>   it to go.
>    
>   Gore seems to have presented one inconvenient truth,
>   and to have hidden another.
>    
>   Best wishes,
>    
>   Kevin
>    
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: David Yarrow
>   To: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>   Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 2:13 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] CO2 in the oceans
>   al gore is a politician possibly evolving into a
>   genuine statesman.  he's no
>   scientist, altho he has personal access to leading
>   scientists worldwide.  he
>   might mis-state, over-state, misinterpret and
>   stretch the data, but i doubt
>   he would stick his neck out so far in public based
>   on a lie, much less a
>   series of lies.  only a fool like george bush would
>   lie, knowing full world
>   the world's leading scientists were listening to
>   every word, ready to pounce
>   on the least misrepresentation.  and i certainly
>   doubt he would have
>   received the nobel prize for shoddy, much less
>   fraudulent representation of
>   authentic scientific data.
>
>   but james hansen is a scientist.  a NASA scientist. 
>   a specialist in
>   atmospheric science.  an expert in global climate
>   studies.  a scientist who
>   has endured decades of peer-reviewed research and
>   publications, and risen to
>   the very top of his field and profession.  a
>   scientist who has spoken
>   sharply, alarmingly, extensively, and honestly about
>   this global climate
>   change challenge, knowing full well a hostile and
>   malicious administration
>   in the white wants to shut him up and silence any
>   truthful communication
>   (and hard data from serious field investigations).
>
>   i seriously doubt james hansen would lie, distort
>   data, or engage in
>   deception.  rather, james hansen carefully avoided
>   taking a position on
>   climate change for several years while he studied
>   the data and investigated
>   the various theories.  james hansen waited until he
>   had hard data to back up
>   his position, and has the courage and concern to go
>   nose-to-nose with his
>   white house censors.  and to even take his case
>   about climate and censorship
>   to a 60 minutes TV broadcast.
>
>   i trust what james hansen says manyfold more than al
>   gore.
>
>   and i trust all gore many more fold more than george
>   bush, dick cheney or
>   any in that oligarchy.  or is it a cabal?  or a
>   cartel?
>
>   personally, i started watching the CO2 curve in
>   1975, and by 1990 i had
>   enough data to convince me climate change will be
>   the #1 issue of the 21st
>   century.
>
>   so, like a kid on a long car ride, i keep asking,
>   "are we there yet?"  are
>   we at a point of agreement yet?  are we ready to get
>   dead serious, roll up
>   our sleeves, wade in and take this huge challenge
>   on?  the longer we wait,
>   deny and delay, the bigger the problem will be.  for
>   our grandchildren, this
>   problem will be a question of their very survival.
>
>   next weekend in vermont i start teaching farmers how
>   to make and use their
>   own biochar.  next year i start teaching them how to
>   capture and use the
>   gases and liquids cooked out of the char.
>
>   for a green & peaceful planet,
>   David Yarrow
>   44 Gilligan Rd, E Greenbush, NY 12061
>   www.championtrees.org
>   www.OnondagaLakePeaceFestival.org
>   www.farmandfood.org
>   www.SeaAgri.com
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "F. Marc de Piolenc" <piolenc at archivale.com>
>   To: <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>   Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:29 AM
>   Subject: [Terrapreta] CO2 in the oceans
>   >
>   > Ice core data clearly shows that mean temperature
>   determines CO2
>   > concentration, and not the reverse. There's a lag
>   of about 800 years
>   > between a temperature change and a corresponding
>   change in CO2
>   > concentration. Those two curves - CO2 and
>   temperature - are the ones
>   > used by Gore in An Inconvenient Truth...only he
>   shifts them in time
>   > so that they appear to coincide. Not the only lie
>   in that movie, but
>   > certainly the crucial one.
>
>   _______________________________________________
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>________________
>_______________________________________________
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Wayne S. Teel
MSC 4102 ISAT
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
Tel: 540-568-2798
Fax: 540-568-2761
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