[Terrapreta] torrefied wood or charcoal?

Mon Mar 3 00:02:14 CST 2008

Hi Tom,

You might probably want ask Larry Williams that question.  I think he is using charcoal he got from John Flotvik or charcoal he made in the field at 4CN with Richard Haard.  I do not think he used Kingsford Charcoal briquettes or any thing like that.  But, as I said, it is worth asking Larry.  Are you reading this Larry?

Regards,

SKB
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tom Miles<mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com> 
  To: 'Gerald Van Koeverden'<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca> ; 'Terra Preta'<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
  Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 11:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] torrefied wood or charcoal?

  Gerrit, Greg, Sean,

  This is a good collection of information. What charcoal is Larry Williams using? His collection of TP additives appears to offset whatever else is in the charcoal. J

  Tom

  From: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Gerald Van Koeverden
  Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 8:39 PM
  To: Terra Preta
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] torrefied wood or charcoal?

              Here is the official ingredient list for Kingsford Charcoal Briquets from a company press release, including the purpose of each ingredient in parentheses. The explanation after each ingredient is my own.

              ·         Wood char (Heat source)
              This is simply the wood by-products I mentioned above, burned down into charcoal-almost pure carbon. In the case of Kingsford, they use woods like fir, cedar, and alder that are local to the regions in which they operate-Burnside and Summer Shade, Kentucky; Glen, Mississippi; Belle, Missouri; Springfield, Oregon; and Beryl and Parsons, West Virginia.

              ·         Mineral char (Heat source)
              This is a geologically young form of coal with a soft, brown texture. It helps Kingsford burn hotter and longer than a plain charcoal briquette. As with the wood, Kingsford heats this material in an oxygen-controlled environment, eliminating water, nitrogen, and other elements, leaving behind-almost pure carbon.

              ·         Mineral carbon (Heat source)
              This is anthracite coal, the old, hard, black stuff once commonly used for home heating. It helps Kingsford burn hotter and longer than a plain charcoal briquette. It's already 86-98% pure carbon, but once again, Kingsford processes it in an oxygen-controlled environment, leaving behind-almost pure carbon.

              What exactly is coal, you ask? "Nasty stuff," some folks say. Well, coal is a fossil fuel, most of which was formed more than 300 million years ago. To make a really, really long story short: Plants and trees died, sank to the bottom of swampy areas, accumulated into many layers, then geologic processes covered the stuff with sand, clay, and rock, and the combination of heat and pressure converted it into what we call coal.

              So, coal is really old plant material that can be processed into almost pure carbon. Charcoal is wood that is burned down into almost pure carbon. Not much difference, in my book. End of coal lesson.

              ·         Limestone (Uniform visual ashing)
              Limestone creates the pretty, white coating of ash you see after lighting the briquettes. Limestone is a sedimentary rock consisting of calcium carbonate-also found in egg shells, antacids, and calcium dietary supplements.

              ·         Starch (Binder)
              As mentioned above, starch is used to hold briquettes together, and is found in corn, wheat, potatoes, and rice.

              ·         Borax (Press release)
              Borax is used in small amounts to help briquettes release from the molds. But isn't Borax a detergent? Well, yes, it is, but it's actually a naturally-occurring mineral that is non-toxic in the quantities we're talking about in a briquette. It consists of sodium, boron, oxygen, and water. You already know what oxygen and water are. Sodium is a common element found in lots of stuff we eat, including salt. Boron is an element that is necessary in small quantities for plant growth. Borax is commonly used in cosmetics and medicines.

              ·         Sodium nitrate (Ignition aid)
              This is the same stuff used to cure meat. According to Robert L. Wolke, professor emeritus of chemistry at the University of Pittsburgh, sodium nitrate gives off oxygen when heated, helping the briquettes to light faster.

              ·         Sawdust (Ignition aid)
              Sawdust burns quickly, helping the briquettes to light faster.

              from: http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/charcoal.html<http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/charcoal.html>

  On 2-Mar-08, at 11:25 PM, Greg and April wrote:

  Actually my data came from the Colorado extension service.

  They specifically said that the ash from charcoal briquettes contains high levels of clay, and while clay might be a good thing in sandy soils - it's not good for most Colorado soils that already have high levels of clay.

  This is the first time I have heard of borax being used in charcoal briquettes.

  One way to put to rest about what materials are being used to make charcoal briquettes, is to get a MSDS - by law a company has to supply one when requested, and they have to list everything that is used.

  That's how I found out that a common ingredient in diesel fuel additives to raise cetane levels of diesel fuel is trace amounts of an explosive.

  Greg H.

  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Van Koeverden" <vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca<mailto:vnkvrdn at yahoo.ca>>

  To: "Terra Preta" <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>>

  Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 21:04

  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] torrefied wood or charcoal?

    To Tom, Jim, Sean, Greg, et al,

    As a farmer, I know that generally ashes enrich the soil.  Every

    example of brush burn piles I have seen, has resulted in more healthy

    plants.  The effect lasts 3 or 4 years.  Of course, I'm sure that too

    much of any good thing turns out bad.  But in general, wood ashes in

    moderation are good for the soil.

    The first place I've read of ashes being toxic to growth is when I

    did an Internet search of compost-making recipes.  In them, I was

    shocked to read how many of them discouraged using charcoal in

    general, even though the only 'bad' material ever specifically

    mentioned was briquette charcoal ashes.  For some reason, compost

    makers have allowed their bad experiences with briquette ash to

    colour their experiences with charcoal in general.

    If we could understand the chemical basis for these bad experiences

    with this briquette ash,  we would then be able to explain it and

    help educate others in better appreciating the merits of using

    charcoal as a soil amendment.  The answer might be as simple as

    determining that boron (from the borax added to charcoal briquettes)

    is toxic to plant growth especially at the higher concentration after

    briquettes are reduced to ash.  Boron is an essential plant

    micronutrient, but, for example, becomes poisonous to lemon trees at

    concentrations of only 1 part per million!   (If anybody finds out

    how much borax is in a bag of briquettes, we could do some

    calculations for it in the ash content.  I don't think it vaporizes,

    otherwise they wouldn't allow us to us it for cooking, right...?)

    Unfortunately, none of us have the facts to explain this briquette

    ash quandry, at present.

    Gerald

    On 2-Mar-08, at 2:56 PM, Jim Joyner wrote:

      Sean,

      While agree with your conclusion, "torrefied is likely not as

      useful or

      effective in making an improvement to the soil as is low ash

      charcoal",

      I'm afraid your reasoning is based on faulty information.

      Sean K. Barry wrote:

        High ash content means higher pH.

      This may be true but not necessarily. If there is a proper amount of

      calcium and magnesium in the soil, the increased pH, mostly due to

      adding potassium in ash, will not persist long. It will wash out.

        This is not good for any soils unless they are very acidic to

        begin with.

      Raising the pH of soil with ash (potassium), without regard to calcium

      and magnesium, will create brick. So, this would not be good,

      necessarily, for a acid  or any other soil.

        Raising the soil pH lowers the cation exchange capacity (CEC),

      This is simply not true. You've got it backwards. CEC is not

      affected by

      pH. Ph may be affected by the things used to increase the CEC like

      clay

      particles (mostly silicates) or carbon (not charcoal). One typically

      adjusts soil calcium, magnesium and potassium according the CEC. Once

      that is done, pH will be slightly acid to neutral.

      If charcoal in the soil raises CEC, it doesn't do it directly by

      addition. It may indeed create a habitat more conducive to the

      creation

      and holding of stable humus, which does increase CEC.

         Higher pH is not a habitable environment for many soil

        micro-organisms, either.

      Just about everything that grows likes a pH of 6.8. But the

      addition of

      charcoal or torrified wood are unlikely to affect pH at all.

      More importantly, pH is a boogey man. It's just a concept for

      measuring

      something that is rarely useful. A good, balanced soil will have a

      slightly acid ph. However, a soil that has a slightly acid soil

      will not

      necessarily grow anything. There are only nutrients and cations in

      active soil (I do not include charcoal as active -- it's virtue

      seems to

      be in its inactivity and crystalline structure). There are no pHs.

      Having said all that, since many of the compounds in torrified wood

      can

      be acted upon by organic processes, my concern for adding torrified

      wood

      to soil would be that it would be much adding sawdust. It won't affect

      pH but it will tie up nitrogen, taking it from crops .. . . for a

      long time.

      Jim

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