[Terrapreta] What is so bad about global warming?
Larry Williams
lwilliams at nas.com
Mon Mar 17 18:37:23 CDT 2008
Frank--------With appreciation of your comments to this list, I need
to question a several points in this posting. This posting leaves
some unanswered questions that appear at times on this list. My
points follow your comments below-------Larry
-----------------------
On Mar 17, 2008, at 7:39 AM, Frank Teuton wrote:
>
> Remember that farming is increasingly large scale corporations,
> with a great deal of experience 'farming the government'...and that
> all farming occurs more or less within a framework of society in
> which government plays a key role.
This economy appears to be straining at this moment to not go into "a
very great depression". This weekend the 15th and 16th of March look
very ominous for social, political and economic stability. Do
consider what these events bode for the future when you say that "
farming is increasingly large scale corporations" and "all farming
occurs more or less within a framework of society in which government
plays a key role". I will agree that your point has been true and is
current true, at this moment. This weekend the stock market went to
the edge of a meltdown and we have to wait and see is it was
prevented. See: Debt Rattle, " Full global impact phase..." and "Why
Washington’s rescue cannot end the crisis story" . How are we to
finance the production of charcoal if investments (and credit
lenders) are in trouble over excessive leveraging?
>
> If charcoal incorporation into soil has an actual horticultural/
> agronomic benefit which supports it on its own terms in a
> particular application, so much the better;
I cannot offer scientific proof that what was accomplished in the
Weber grill will support Terra Preta nova but I can offer you a
visual of the humble grilling technique that may indicate an avenue
for further research for those with means to do so. These pictures, I
believe, are part of the TP nova puzzle. The Swiss Chard was 42"
high. Considerably larger plants than were grown in previous years.
The charcoal was placed in a garden soil that is very rich in
organics including seaweed and local rock dust (Nooksack River, Mt
Baker, WA, USA). There may be a limiting factor that the charcoal
overcame. See charcoal pics with plant and fungal roots and charcoal
makings (also)and charcoal farming pics.
> but, where it offers little or no benefit
If we do not fully appreciate the benefits of our charcoal makings
then how do we know when "little or no benefit" occurs. Could you
explain please, where do you see no benefits?
> except in the global sense the farmer (corporate or familial) will
> need for the larger society to recompense him for his cost of
> incorporation. Indeed, where charcoal incorporation offers no
> benefit it might be best to just dump it into an old mine shaft at
> lower cost than agricultural application, right?
There are many ways that charcoal does not work after it has been
placed in the soil. As a landscape gardener, I frequently uncover
buried charcoal while doing drainage work on residential properties.
See these three pics (one, two and three). These pieces of soil and
charcoal were located about 4" below the lawn surface and could be up
to 90 years old. This is the age of the house and the charcoal may be
related to the land clearing operation for the house. These photos do
not show any fungal or plant root involvement. The obvious reason is
soil compaction... foot compaction? My point in this example is that
burying charcoal in the ground doesn't means it benefits plants. It
appears that newly made charcoal needs to be wetted, fertilized,
inoculated and, at some point, sized to the specific application. Of
course, foot compaction may likely prevent biological activity.
To answer your question about the mine shaft... please your knowledge
of how to use charcoal is greater than dumping it down a mine shaft.
Give it to gardeners or farmers first. Let them pick it up at no cost
to you.
>
> I think we all need to realize that this concept is still very much
> in the R&D phase and adjust our rhetoric accordingly.
Yes, we are in a R&D phase need to adjust our priorities accordingly
if we are to pull a rabbit out of this hat... ah, bundle of troubles.
Is there any question that the environment will rule human economics?
Are we on the same "cooperative" page or are we isolated islands in
competition in a quest for profits sans commonweal?-------Larry
>
> My two cents,
>
> Frank Teuton
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kevin Chisholm
> To: Sean K. Barry
> Cc: Miles Tom ; Pilarski Michael ; Toch Susan ; Baur Hans
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] What is so bad about global warming?
>
> Dear Sean
>
> Sean K. Barry wrote:
>>
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> The key question is: "What business do you want to be in?"
>>
>> If you want to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, then that is one
>> thing,
>> but if you want grow things, than that is a different matter ...
>>
>> Why should I be limited to only that line of sight? I can walk
>> and chew gum at the same time. I see the synergy of doing ALL of
>> mining CO2 from the atmosphere to make charcoal for TP style
>> charcoal-in-soil and growing things in TP-like soils attempts and
>> helping others to do the same.
>
> Before you get into any Business, you must define that Business,
> and see a route to attaining the Business Goals. If my Business
> Objective is "Grow Turnips and Make Money", I might be able to do
> this, and I might proceed. If my Business Objective was "Grow
> Turnips, Sequester Carbon and Make Money", and if the actions of
> sequestering carbon were revenue neutral or revenue positive, then
> I would far prefer this route. If sequestering carbon was revenue
> negative to me, then I would not do it.
>
> Perhaps you can find ways to make money sequestering carbon.
> Perhaps for philosophical reasons, you may even decide to include
> carbon sequestering in your Business Plan, even if it results in an
> incremental loss of profit. That is fine... it is up to you,
> because it is your business.
>>
>> If your objective is to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, then OK.
>> If my
>> objective is to grow things more efficiently, with greater yields,
>> and
>> at lower cost, fossil carbon emissions are a secondary consideration.
>>
>> What if past fossil carbon emissions and continuing present day
>> fossil carbon emissions begin to effect things like: reduced
>> annual average rainfall in your area, increased annual average
>> temperature, longer sustained droughts, climate migration, the
>> cost of energy to run your farming equipment, the cost and
>> performance of fertilizers on your farm, etc? Then will fossil
>> carbon emissions be more of a consideration?
>
> As a Small Grower, I cannot afford to be a Missionary. The above
> points would be a worry or a concern, but I would not spend money
> to alleviate them.
>>
>> "What can Terra Preta do for my farm now?" sounds only like a
>> greedy, short sighted, only myself supporting approach.
>
> It would have sounded so much nicer if you said Small Growers must
> first stick to profitable business, so that they will still be
> around to do good over the long term. :-) Remember the very wise
> observation "The Second Mouse Gets the Cheese."
>> Good for you and not necessarily good enough for the rest of us,
>> perhaps?
>
> Would you get into a Business that sequestered carbon, at a loss to
> the business?
>> There isn't just one pie and surely you will get yourself a
>> piece. The world has more than enough to go around when we all
>> learn to share in it. No one will take yours away.
>
> When we learn how to make money from Terra Preta, then I am sure it
> will come into widespread acceptance. If the Person or Company
> making or using TP can't make money off it, TP will not get done.
>
> Lets find ways to show the World how to make money off Terra Preta.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
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