[Terrapreta] What is so bad about global warming?

[Frank Teuton]

Larry,

Let's take your points in sequence:

"This economy appears to be straining at this moment to not go into "a very great  depression". This weekend the 15th and 16th of March look very ominous for social, political and economic stability. Do consider what these events bode for the future when you say that " farming is increasingly large scale corporations" and "all farming occurs more or less within a framework of society in which government plays a key role". I will agree that your point has been true and is current true, at this moment. This weekend the stock market went to the edge of a meltdown and we have to wait and see is it was prevented. See: Debt Rattle, " Full global impact phase..."  and "Why Washington’s rescue cannot end the crisis story" . How are we to finance the production of charcoal if investments (and credit lenders) are in trouble over excessive leveraging?"

Yep, the money system we all live under is illusory and unstable. 'Twas ever thus. Other systems of accounting are possible. In any case, we must have general agreement that a particular value is worthy of support, for that support to flow. Whatever the political economy of the day, choices are made and decisions taken which impact the future. If the need is identified and prioritized, resources will be mobilized.

"I cannot offer scientific proof that what was accomplished in the Weber grill will support Terra Preta nova but I can offer you a visual of the humble grilling technique that may indicate an avenue for further research for those with means to do so. These pictures, I believe, are part of the TP nova  puzzle. The Swiss Chard was 42" high. Considerably larger plants than were grown in previous years. The charcoal was placed in a garden soil that is very rich in organics including seaweed and local rock dust (Nooksack River, Mt Baker, WA, USA). There may be a limiting factor that the charcoal overcame. See charcoal pics with plant and fungal roots and charcoal makings (also)and charcoal farming pics."

My point is that whether or not charcoal applications offer horticultural/agronomic benefits is a LOCAL question to be evaluated on a case by case basis just as you are doing. I've already offered my view that making charcoal without flaring the offgasses is a bad practice, but I won't criticize it on a small scale. The size of the plants is in my mind less the issue than the quality.  'Very rich in organics' can mean many different things, I can tell you visually that your soil on the farm is better than ours on the farm, but much less good than my 1000 sq ft backyard garden soil. At some point we have to stop talking qualitatively and start doing quantitative measurement. Also I don't see the control plots versus the charcoal added plots so clearly in your photos.

We need to consider the cost to the farmer of making charcoal and compare that to other ways the farmer could spend his/her/their time....for example, if you spent the time taken making charcoal instead making more compost, it would be fair to compare 'charcoal plus compost' with 'compost plus the extra compost' that not making charcoal would give you. Comparing equal efforts, and all that.....

Let's generally agree that in many or most situations charcoal would provide some agronomic benefit, over a ten year period. And, that that benefit would likely be less than the cost of production and application of charcoal (otherwise people would be doing it already). Alongside the agronomic benefits are carbon sequestration benefits that would obtain if the charcoal making process were fully harnessed for heat production (eg, in a greenhouse situation) or for biofuel production (not there yet but the potential exists). Then the whole process would replace fossil fuels in some measure while gathering charcoal for soil enhancing sequestration. For the farmer to be made whole, he needs to be compensated by society at large for the extra cost of charcoal production and application that is not recouped agronomically and economically (ie, soil improvement and heat production).


"If we do not fully appreciate the benefits of our charcoal makings then how do we know when "little or no benefit" occurs. Could you explain please, where do you see no benefits?"

I would see no benefit in adding charcoal to my backyard garden soil. Heavily composted, deep clay worked by Lumbricus terrestris about every six inches, I see no reason why adding charcoal agronomically would not be kind of literally 'bringing coals to Newcastle'. Nowadays all my surplus compost including the charcoal enriched material I am now making will go out to the farm, where the soil is 30 feet of sand and greatly needs the extra water holding capacity and CEC that compost brings. There may very well be other soils including rich muck soils, fertile clays, etc, where charcoal offers little....in such cases it needs to be understood as a best practice to apply it where you will get the most 'bang for your buck'. In some areas charcoal addition to the soil may offer so little that it should be shipped out of the area to places where it is more useful. Where the costs of shipping it exceed the benefits it should simply be made and stored in the most economic and reasonable manner. As long as it remains charcoal the carbon remains sequestered, eh? 'Giving' it to farmers and gardeners whose costs of coming to get it exceed the benefits it would provide  is an example of an illusory situation. Much like the ballyhooed shipping of coir out of the tropics and into wealthy northern countries...an example of a fake green practice if ever there was one.

  " It appears that newly made charcoal needs to be wetted, fertilized, inoculated and, at some point, sized to the specific application. "

  Yes, it really does. All of which needs to be understood as adding to the costs of TPn. In short, the economics of TPn are far from clear, and we need to stay objective about it in order to understand how to arrive at best practices for it. In writing the Terra Preta nova appendix for the revised edition of the Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth we will need to include both yesses and nos to arrive at the best way to use TPn most effectively.

  Frank Teuton
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Larry Williams 
  To: Frank Teuton 
  Cc: Toch Susan ; Pilarski Michael ; Miles Tom ; Baur Hans 
  Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 7:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] What is so bad about global warming?


  Frank--------With appreciation of your comments to this list, I need to question a several points in this posting. This posting leaves some unanswered questions that appear at times on this list.  My points follow your comments below-------Larry




  -----------------------

  On Mar 17, 2008, at 7:39 AM, Frank Teuton wrote:

    Remember that farming is increasingly large scale corporations, with a great deal of experience 'farming the government'...and that all farming occurs more or less within a framework of society in which government plays a key role.
  This economy appears to be straining at this moment to not go into "a very great  depression". This weekend the 15th and 16th of March look very ominous for social, political and economic stability. Do consider what these events bode for the future when you say that " farming is increasingly large scale corporations" and "all farming occurs more or less within a framework of society in which government plays a key role". I will agree that your point has been true and is current true, at this moment. This weekend the stock market went to the edge of a meltdown and we have to wait and see is it was prevented. See: Debt Rattle, " Full global impact phase..."  and "Why Washington’s rescue cannot end the crisis story" . How are we to finance the production of charcoal if investments (and credit lenders) are in trouble over excessive leveraging?

    If charcoal incorporation into soil has an actual horticultural/agronomic benefit which supports it on its own terms in a particular application, so much the better;
  I cannot offer scientific proof that what was accomplished in the Weber grill will support Terra Preta nova but I can offer you a visual of the humble grilling technique that may indicate an avenue for further research for those with means to do so. These pictures, I believe, are part of the TP nova  puzzle. The Swiss Chard was 42" high. Considerably larger plants than were grown in previous years. The charcoal was placed in a garden soil that is very rich in organics including seaweed and local rock dust (Nooksack River, Mt Baker, WA, USA). There may be a limiting factor that the charcoal overcame. See charcoal pics with plant and fungal roots and charcoal makings (also)and charcoal farming pics.




    but, where it offers little or no benefit 
  If we do not fully appreciate the benefits of our charcoal makings then how do we know when "little or no benefit" occurs. Could you explain please, where do you see no benefits?


    except in the global sense the farmer (corporate or familial) will need for the larger society to recompense him for his cost of incorporation. Indeed, where charcoal incorporation offers no benefit it might be best to just dump it into an old mine shaft at lower cost than agricultural application, right?
  There are many ways that charcoal does not work after it has been placed in the soil. As a landscape gardener, I frequently uncover buried charcoal while doing drainage work on residential properties. See these three pics (one, two and three). These pieces of soil and charcoal were located about 4" below the lawn surface and could be up to 90 years old. This is the age of the house and the charcoal may be related to the land clearing operation for the house. These photos do not show any fungal or plant root involvement. The obvious reason is soil compaction... foot compaction? My point in this example is that burying charcoal in the ground doesn't means it benefits plants. It appears that newly made charcoal needs to be wetted, fertilized, inoculated and, at some point, sized to the specific application. Of course, foot compaction may likely prevent biological activity.


  To answer your question about the mine shaft... please your knowledge of how to use charcoal is greater than dumping it down a mine shaft. Give it to gardeners or farmers first. Let them pick it up at no cost to you.



    I think we all need to realize that this concept is still very much in the R&D phase and adjust our rhetoric accordingly.
  Yes, we are in a R&D phase need to adjust our priorities accordingly if we are to pull a rabbit out of this hat... ah, bundle of troubles. Is there any question that the environment will rule human economics? Are we on the same "cooperative" page or are we isolated islands in competition in a quest for profits sans commonweal?-------Larry



    My two cents,

    Frank Teuton
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Kevin Chisholm 
      To: Sean K. Barry 
      Cc: Miles Tom ; Pilarski Michael ; Toch Susan ; Baur Hans 
      Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:03 AM
      Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] What is so bad about global warming?


      Dear Sean

      Sean K. Barry wrote: 
        Hi Kevin,

        The key question is: "What business do you want to be in?"

        If you want to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, then that is one thing, 
        but if you want grow things, than that is a different matter ...

        Why should I be limited to only that line of sight?  I can walk and chew gum at the same time.  I see the synergy of doing ALL of mining CO2 from the atmosphere to make charcoal for TP style charcoal-in-soil and growing things in TP-like soils attempts and helping others to do the same.

      Before you get into any Business, you must define that Business, and see a route to attaining the Business Goals. If my Business Objective is "Grow Turnips and Make Money", I might be able to do this, and I might proceed. If my Business Objective was "Grow Turnips, Sequester Carbon and Make Money", and if the actions of sequestering carbon were revenue neutral or revenue positive, then I would far prefer this route. If sequestering carbon was revenue negative to me, then I would not do it. 

      Perhaps you can find ways to make money sequestering carbon. Perhaps for philosophical reasons, you may even decide to include carbon sequestering in your Business Plan, even if it results in an incremental loss of profit. That is fine... it is up to you, because it is your business.


        If your objective is to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, then OK. If my 
        objective is to grow things more efficiently, with greater yields, and 
        at lower cost, fossil carbon emissions are a secondary consideration.

        What if past fossil carbon emissions and continuing present day fossil carbon emissions begin to effect things like: reduced annual average rainfall in your area, increased annual average temperature, longer sustained droughts, climate migration, the cost of energy to run your farming equipment, the cost and performance of fertilizers on your farm, etc?    Then will fossil carbon emissions be more of a consideration?

      As a Small Grower, I cannot afford to be a Missionary. The above points would be a worry or a concern, but I would not spend money to alleviate them.


        "What can Terra Preta do for my farm now?" sounds only like a greedy, short sighted, only myself supporting approach.  

      It would have sounded so much nicer if you said Small Growers must first stick to profitable business, so that they will still be around to do good over the long term. :-) Remember the very wise observation "The Second Mouse Gets the Cheese."

        Good for you and not necessarily good enough for the rest of us, perhaps? 


      Would you get into a Business that sequestered carbon, at a loss to the business? 

        There isn't just one pie and surely you will get yourself a piece.  The world has more than enough to go around when we all learn to share in it.  No one will take yours away.

      When we learn how to make money from Terra Preta, then I am sure it will come into widespread acceptance. If the Person or Company making or using TP can't make money off it, TP will not get done. 

      Lets find ways to show the World how to make money off Terra Preta.

      Best wishes,

      Kevin






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