[Terrapreta] Char and compost ( was Char made made under pressurized conditions? )
Greg and April
gregandapril at earthlink.net
Mon Mar 31 18:54:49 CDT 2008
I would rather add it not to the compost, but to the fresh manure and urine - this is where nutrient losses are at it greatest.
Only if I can't add it to the litter, would I then add it to the compost, once the manure and urine get to the compost, there are other materials there that will "collect it".
Char added to compost is going to act more as a " home " for microbial life, than a nutrient sponge.
Greg H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean K. Barry
To: Folke Günther ; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org ; teelws at jmu.edu
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 17:07
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Char made made under pressurized conditions?
Hi Wayne,
The biggest advantage of adding char to compost (aside from the sequestration over the long term) is that it reduces leaching losses of nitrogen compounds, keeping nutrient available for plants for longer periods.
This sounds like a testable hypothesis. It sounds like a imporant reason, maybe, too, which explains why charcoal + compost is in the recipe for Terra Preta. Is this the mechanism that make TP soil build its fertility? Charcoal makes the soil hold its nutrients. Compost adds and concentrates the nutrients into the charcoal bearing soils.
Regards,
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: teelws at jmu.edu
To: Folke Günther ; 'Sean K. Barry' ; terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Char made made under pressurized conditions?
All,
Fulke Gunther is right on about the compost pile. Anytime you have an ammonia smell you have a problem. Adding "edible" carbon to get the C:N ratio above 25:1 is essential. Adding char does something else. In this case you have to have the ammonia in the form of ammonium ion, NH4+. It will attach to the negative charge on the surface of char pores and be immobilized until removed by a stronger chemical or electrical attraction. Aeration and proper moisture content are essential for this process. Too dry you have volatilization, too wet and leaching results.
By the way, char carbon does not count in the C:N ratio you want because it is nearly biologically inactive. It provides a surface area for complex biological activity, but if made properly should be effectively inert, which is why it lasts in soil so long. A good compost ratio includes only the portion of carbon potentially edible by bacteria. The biggest advantage of adding char to compost (aside from the sequestration over the long term) is that it reduces leaching losses of nitrogen compounds, keeping nutrient available for plants for longer periods.
Wayne
---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 03:46:09 +0200
>From: Folke Günther <folke at holon.se>
>Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Char made made under pressurized conditions?
>To: "'Sean K. Barry'" <sean.barry at juno.com>, <terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
>
> I have been following the discussion for some days
> now, and now, I can't keep quiet any more.
>
> 1. If you get ammonia from your compost pile, you
> are managing it in the wrong way. You either has
> too little plant material vs. meat or
> nitrogen-rich material, too much water, or too
> bad aeration. All these problems can be
> alleviated wit the addition of charcoal.
> 2. Don' put urine on warm charcoal. You will loose a
> lot in the air.
> 3. On the other hand, if you have aces to urine,
> from a source-separating toilet, or from a
> stable, it is a god idea to add it to fresh
> carcoal. It will be absorbed to a large extent
> (I don't have numbers here, does anybody have
> numbers on how much urine could be absorbed in
> charcoal?) Anyhow, the smell from a jar of urine
> will fade considerably when charcoal is added.
>
>
>
> Adding two system diagrams on the combination of
> different activities in a charring society If they
> are unintelligible, please contact me.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Folke Günther
>
> Kollegievägen 19
>
> 224 73 Lund, Sweden
>
> home/office: +46 46 14 14 29
>
> cell: 0709 710306 skype: folkegun
>
> Homepage: http://www.holon.se/folke
> blog: http://folkegunther.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> Från: terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:terrapreta-bounces at bioenergylists.org] För
> Sean K. Barry
> Skickat: den 29 mars 2008 22:40
> Till: Terra Preta; Jeff Davis
> Ämne: Re: [Terrapreta] Char made made under
> pressurized conditions?
>
>
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
>
>
> This is an interesting idea, because of the free
> source of cool ammonia-NH3 gas from from off a
> compost pile. I wonder what the concentration of
> ammonia-NH3 in air is? It is entirely possible that
> ammonia-NH3 would be absorbed into charcoal, but
> maybe in the form of a solidified ammonia salt, like
> ammonium bicarbonate (NH4HCO3), rather than as a
> gas. I don't believe NH3 gas reactes with carbon-C
> atoms on the surface of the charcoal.
>
>
>
> Eprida had/has a product called ECOSS which has (I
> believe) ammonium bicarbonate deposited on the
> surface of the charcoal (like an M&M candy
> coating). Some of their early bags smelled like
> ammonia when first opened, I heard. I think making
> a fertilized with ammonia charcoal product would
> require some way to "fix" the NH3 molecules onto the
> charcoal.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> SKB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Jeff Davis
>
> To: Terra Preta
>
> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:21 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Char made made under
> pressurized conditions?
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I was thinking more on the lines of capturing the
> lost ammonia gas (etc)
> from the composting pile. If it would be possible
> to absorb this in the
> cooling period of the charcoal. I know it's a
> close to zero chance.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jeff
>
> > Either case, I still doubt that N2 as a
> reasonably inert gas will do
> > anything - either as a fertilizer or be absorbed
> into the char.
>
> --
> Jeff Davis
>
> Some where 20 miles south of Lake Erie, USA
>
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Wayne S. Teel
MSC 4102 ISAT
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
Tel: 540-568-2798
Fax: 540-568-2761
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