[Terrapreta] Threads

[Sean K. Barry]

Hi Jim,

Scientific study relies on observation, analysis, and predictions.  If predictions come to pass, this supports theory.  The Nihilist philosophy is of no use in science (... there are no observations in Nihilism, that are allowed to count).

There is not enough mass in our Sun, such that it will develop into a super nova.  This is a prediction, based upon observations of many other super nova that have occurred and theory (see Chandraskar Limit).  Hindsight is the developed theory from observations.  Predictions are attempts at foresight.

You say the universe does not care, as if humans have no effect on our environment (we just think we do?).  By observation, this seems wrong.  Look about you?  There are clearly observables in the world around you that would not be there without your active and autonomous presence in the world (e.g. the clothes you wear now are only there because you are in them).

Accepting that humans can and have made an observable difference on the climate of the Earth gives one the opportunity to see that we can surely affect it in the future (and likely will, no matter what).  Billions of people (or just dozens) can effect changes in concert, very large changes.  They can all share the same vision and the same experiences.  Their separate "you" does not discount their shared experiences.  We do effect our world now and we can all see this now, together.

I think any other vision, to me at least, is all too much philosophizing, and really of not much use.

Regards,

SKB
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Joyner<mailto:jimstoy at dtccom.net> 
  To: Terra Preta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org> 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 11:36 AM
  Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Threads


  MFH wrote: 
    Off on a tangent.

     

    The TP site is riddled with wonderful examples of sincerity, beliefs, aims, objectives, hopes, and from time to time, a smattering of practicalities,

     

    Its about bedtime here. A passing thought to leave with you is somewhat pertinent to where we all are now in respect of our planet being on the verge of possible un-tenancy. Did 'we' have any choice, dated from yesterday backwards, about our role in the whole scheme of things?

     

    More specifically, do we in fact have any choices at all? In other words, is there "free will"?

     

    Simply, did you ever make a decision that your own belief system knew was wrong at the time of the decision. 

     

    Not in hindsight.

     

    M

  Max,

  It is indeed "off on a tangent". But because I cannot resist answering, I will beg everyone's forgiveness in advance.

  Up front, the answer to you question is, no, choices and free will are delusions based on illusions. 

  When you come to a fork in the road, you say to yourself, will I go this way or that, or will I just sit here? At that moment you can create infinite comparisons about going or not. But in the end there was no choice, only the thought of a choice; at any given moment, you will take only one action (even if it is inaction). The fact is, the whole universe is acting (every thought or experience you have ever had, essentially all action in the universe) at that moment and at every moment insuring that you will and can only go one way. That way might be disastrous or it may be propitious. Either way you will later see the "choice" as something you made, a delusion, simply a thought.

  The reason we cannot make choices is that we do not exist. Ok, before you get out the hanging rope or the straight jacket, there is a real being reading this at this moment, but there is no "you". The sense of "you" that is in your mind is nothing but a set of images, thoughts. That is the only "you" that exists, like a computer program (a virus might be a better analogy). It can only think it chooses. 

  Spinoza implied, there is but one substance in the universe and it is just is what is and it just does what it does. Modern physics seems ever to be coming to that conclusion. We can mentally divide, slice and dice, the universe but separation is never possible. There are no things in the universe. Whether we like it not, the universe is a unity. We, if we are lucky, we may come to a sense of that unity . . . or we may just give it lip service in the abstract. It's not really a choice, it's just something that grace ordains. But there is no "you" to make a choice.

  Our sense of choice comes from our common sense (I mean that in the least flattering way) view of time. But the past does not exist except as a memory. The future does not exist except as a fantasy. Admittedly, these are abstractions we can not survive without. The problem is not the abstractions but our confusing them with what is real, what is.

  May Waddington said " . . . since it is totally related to the most important current issue of our time, climate change..." That sounds profound but it is simply not true in any intrinsic way. When we set up a proposition for what is important, we are forgetting the conditional (relative) statement we must make with it: this is important IF . . . In other words, we must say the above is true if (something like this) we want life to go on in a sustainable way. Fine, Now, ask that 8 month  pregnant woman in china, buried for 50 hours, just before she was pulled out, if that is the most important issue of our time. If her circumstances weren't so dire she might laugh, but you would probably get a dumb stare. What ever you would get, it would not be agreement.

  So you see, like the above, all our judgments and all our decisions are based on values and where we arrange them in time (priorities). A process based on something almost totally subjective (and changeable from moment to moment) with the background of an abstraction (time). This is the delusion choice.

  There seems to be a lot of hand wringing and worrying here about the future. Choices. The worst that seems can happen, I suppose, is that we will all die a horrible, painful death and the planet will be covered in a green slime. Well, if so, it just will. That or something like it, ultimately, will happen anyway at some point (the sun will become a super nova). But since that point exists only as a thought, why worry about it? Why get caught up in the web of thinking about choices to change it? The universe doesn't care, only our sense of self does. Only our sense of self thinks it can decide the future into existence. 

  We generate a great deal of fear for naught. For all fear is based on the future, something that is not even real, just thoughts about thoughts. Hence, when we stop living in the future, all fear (wasted energy) disappears and we find we only live now -- we always do. And we just do what we do. It's all we could ever do. Framing what we do as a series of choices just adds an unneeded sense of despair.

  My advice, sure, engage in what you see as choice, just don't indulge the self in thinking it is real or that it can do anything differently. Just do what you do -- now. It is all you can do.

  Jim

  When we truly understand the problem, we already have the solution. When we are truly aware, we find the problem never existed.

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