[Terrapreta] Fw: a tiny outburst of common sense
Kevin Chisholm
kchisholm at ca.inter.net
Tue Dec 18 10:22:52 CST 2007
Dear Sean
I don't understand the "Carbon Credits" mechanics, as it would apply to
Terra Preta... perhaps you, or someone else could explain how the system
is proposed to work, or point me to a URL that has the details.
Some of the questions that would interest me would be:
Where can one apply for Carbon Credit payments?
Is there a "minimum credit", below which inspection costs make the
effort uneconomic?
How much would a Buyer pay for a credit of 1 Tonne of CO2?
How much would a Seller get for providing the 1 Tonne of CO2 credit?
Most existing Carbon Credits are based on "not adding" more CO2, while
TP "removes" CO2 from teh Biosphere. Shouldn't TP get a higher payment
per tonne of Carbon Credit generated?
Best wishes,
Kevin
Sean K. Barry wrote:
> Hi Lou,
>
> Good points, all. "Invest Now" is more optimistic and progressive.
> There could still be a generational issue; since were being asked
> invest in our childrens and grand childrens lives. The consumer
> credit issue could be a problem too. Maybe buried carbon should be
> the coin of the realm? Earned carbon credits could be treated like
> cash. Earn carbon credits for your grandchildren.
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com>
> *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> *Cc:* David Yarrow <mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com> ; terrapreta
> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2007 11:33 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] Fw: a tiny outburst of common sense
>
> Yes, 25x25 is a good example of how some states and
> municipalities are moving forward despite a stalemated federal
> government that is mostly captive of lobbyists who has
> institutionalized access to Congress.
>
> Of course I like the drift of your "Pay It Forward" phrase but it
> is not likely to travel well in a society addicted to "Pay It
> Later" consumer credit. Thus, I prefer the phrase "Invest Now"
> which limits the sense of a burden to pay, replacing it with a
> sense of future opportunity. I think that in all our messaging we
> need to stress that we are not talking about guilt, or
> reparations, or penalties but, instead , about a better and more
> abundant way.
>
> hugs,
>
> lou
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 12:37 PM, Sean K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com
> <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Lou,
>
> The Minnesota state legislature was the first in the nation to
> enact a Global Climate Change Mitigation strategy into law. It
> is called "25 by 25" (25% reduction by 2025) bill. It does
> exactly what you propose. It requires the electric utility
> Exel Energy, to replace 25% of their electric generating
> capacity with wind and other renewables by the year 2025. It
> is the first law of its kind and it is being accomplished
> ahead of schedule. My belief is that the ball needs to keep
> rolling and even faster after 2025.
>
> There is a phrase I thought of later yesterday ... "Pay It
> Forward" ... It was the title of a movie about soccer , I
> think , too. But the idea to me seems that we need to change
> from operating to get what we need now into more one of
> getting for futture generations what they will need then. We
> have to live now only to sustain livability for others after
> us. This is very different than live and let live, to each
> his own, every man for himself, and capitalistic markets,
> etc. It is more like realizing that its pay back time. We
> cannot any longer sustain the resource extraction and ignore
> the waste paradigm. We need to think about sustaining people,
> people in other places and at later times.
>
> We have to pay our abundance forward.
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com>
> *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> *Cc:* David Yarrow <mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com> ;
> terrapreta <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2007 4:13 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] Fw: a tiny outburst of common
> sense
>
> Yep, and politics has its ways to distort all the logic
> and market forces. For example, the most recent US energy
> bill avoided two opportunities to guide business as usual
> into new directions. One would have required utilities to
> generate an increasing share of their power from renewable
> sources like wind. The other would have rolled back about
> $12 billion in tax breaks granted to the oil companies in
> the last energy bill and used the proceeds to help develop
> cleaner fuels and new energy technologies.
>
> That's politics as usual. But, I believe there's an even
> deeper "logic" at work: the industrial age paradigm
> generates both profits and progress from resource
> extraction and disregard for waste. It approaches limits
> through depletions and pollutions. It generates a zero-sum
> politics of scarcity. Viewed from the perspective of the
> earth, the human race is a vast collection of "haves" and
> "have-nots" in a process of taking and wasting and
> fighting for the spoils. This is the field on which
> business-as-usual plays. The rich get richer, and so on....
>
> I keep thinking that there is another logic deeply
> embedded in the terra preta model. Rather than a one-way
> taking from the earth by the human race, it presents the
> possibility of reciprocities that have not been part of
> the previous industrial paradigm. In essence, it shows a
> view from the earth which says that by capturing and
> converting waste into soil, we the human race may enter a
> process of giving and using. This, in turn, presents a
> potential for moving us from exhaustion toward abundance
> and generates a new playing field for business-as-usual.
> It suggests the possibility of truly sustainable abundance
> and a system in which all get richer.
>
> Respectfully, I would like to suggest that this is a
> revolutionary shift -- a sea change -- that requires a
> leap of faith from familiar notions of scarcity into
> off-our-present-map novel notions of abundance. It may
> turn out that consciousness-as-usual is as much or even
> more of an obstacle than business-as-usual.
>
> We have quite a song to sing. Let's do it.
>
> OK, that's my-your-our dream.
>
> hugs,
>
> lou
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2007 10:48 PM, Sean K. Barry <
> sean.barry at juno.com <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
> I just read something called "Jevons Paradox". Duane
> Pendergast referred me to it. It is related to a
> "logical fallacy", called "affirming the consequent",
> and I think, an incorrect working the modus tollens or
> modus ponens rule?
>
> The applicable "fallacy" in the article you referred
> points out that you cannot rely on conservation of use
> of fossil fuels to lower fossil fuel consumption.
> Reducing the demand (conservation or raising the
> efficiencies) will lower prices temporarily, but
> eventually will result in increased demand again. If
> we conserve, then carbon demand and consumption will
> not go up? ... doesn't work. That dog don't hunt.
> That is a weak induction argument. The market forces
> will drive an increase in total demand for fossil
> fuels. It is a powerful mechanism that has built most
> of all the world wide monopolies.
>
> The only logical method applicable, is a correct use
> of "inference", when A => B, says not A means not B
> and also not B means not A. The way to use this to
> stop burning fossil fuels, is not to burn less
> (conservation), but rather to stop mining and drilling
> for (supplying) fossil carbon fuels! Or, eliminate
> the supply altogether and that will definitely lower
> the total demand and consumption,. If supply A, then
> demand B (and consumption), means that without supply
> => then no demand (and no consumption) in a market.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
>
> In a world where the demand for energy is intense,
> crucial, and intensifying, the fossil fuel energy
> industry is in its hey day.
> They operate in a vast market, which allows them to
> promote conservation and at the same time drive up
> corporate revenues.
> As for their "renewable energy" objectives, in an open
> market, replacement of fossil carbon fuel will
> eliminate the demand and consumption, only if
> replacement "renewable energy" sources are found at a
> lower price and can completely replace the "energy"
> content of the fossil carbon fuels. As long as there
> are people who can only buy fossil carbon fuels, then
> suppliers will always be able to sell at just about
> any price. If the supply becomes so precious and
> rare, it will price right into unavailability for all.
>
> Without replacement of the "energy" sources, we ALL
> will not have enough available "energy" resources to
> live and work as we now do. Conservation is the
> "bait" of markets that fossil fuel suppliers are
> running, along with automobile manufacturers, and
> politicians who's futures are bent on the "status quo"
> of open markets acting like open markets. This is
> just business. Business as usual is their moniker.
> What would you do, doing so well in business, to
> consider changing what you are doing?
>
> Maybe we should consider creating the business of
> "Eliminating Fossil Carbon Fuel Consumption", and use
> the logic of eliminating (or taxing the shit out of)
> fossil fuel supply, in order to rid the world of
> noxious carbon dioxide pollution?
>
>
> "The government's climate change policy works like
> this: extract every last drop of fossil fuel then pray
> to God that no one uses it."
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* David Yarrow <mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>
> *To:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:19 PM
> *Subject:* [Terrapreta] Fw: a tiny outburst of
> common sense
>
> The Technology That Will Save Us from Runaway
> Climate Change
> - George Monbiot
> http://www.alternet.org/story/70302/
>
> David Yarrow
> "If yer not forest, yer against us."
> Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
> 44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
> dyarrow at nycap.rr.com <mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>
> www.championtrees.org <http://www.championtrees.org>
> www.OnondagaLakePeaceFestival.org
> <http://www.OnondagaLakePeaceFestival.org>
> www.citizenre.com/dyarrow/
> <http://www.citizenre.com/dyarrow/>
> www.farmandfood.org <http://www.farmandfood.org>
> www.SeaAgri.com <http://www.SeaAgri.com>
>
> "Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times,
> if one only remembers to turn on the light."
> -Albus Dumbledore
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