[Terrapreta] Fw: a tiny outburst of common sense
Sean K. Barry
sean.barry at juno.com
Wed Dec 19 12:22:01 CST 2007
Hi Kevin,
No "Carbon Credit" scheme has been developed for permanently "carbon negative" credits, like Tera Preta formation and carbon sequestration into soil. I think, like you, that it is more valuable to remove carbon from the atmosphere and sequester it more permanently, than to just offset other "fossil carbon" that is being emitted into the atmosphere.
Now, carbon credits are paid by users of fossil carbon fuels from developed and industrialized countries and can be earned only by developing country states (as defined in Kyoto). The credits are earned for preventing the release of fossil carbon fuel or offsetting the release of fossil carbon fuel by sequestering an equivalent amount of other carbon for some time (i.e. stored in forestland).
The dollar value of the "carbon credits" per ton depends now on the active buying/selling price in the "carbon markets". There is a Carbon Exchange Market in London and one in Chicago, I think.
I don't know much more about the "carbon credit" scheme than this right now. It would be worth doing some more research on it.
Regards,
SKB
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Chisholm<mailto:kchisholm at ca.inter.net>
To: Sean K. Barry<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
Cc: lou gold<mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com> ; terrapreta<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Fw: a tiny outburst of common sense
Dear Sean
I don't understand the "Carbon Credits" mechanics, as it would apply to
Terra Preta... perhaps you, or someone else could explain how the system
is proposed to work, or point me to a URL that has the details.
Some of the questions that would interest me would be:
Where can one apply for Carbon Credit payments?
Is there a "minimum credit", below which inspection costs make the
effort uneconomic?
How much would a Buyer pay for a credit of 1 Tonne of CO2?
How much would a Seller get for providing the 1 Tonne of CO2 credit?
Most existing Carbon Credits are based on "not adding" more CO2, while
TP "removes" CO2 from teh Biosphere. Shouldn't TP get a higher payment
per tonne of Carbon Credit generated?
Best wishes,
Kevin
Sean K. Barry wrote:
> Hi Lou,
>
> Good points, all. "Invest Now" is more optimistic and progressive.
> There could still be a generational issue; since were being asked
> invest in our childrens and grand childrens lives. The consumer
> credit issue could be a problem too. Maybe buried carbon should be
> the coin of the realm? Earned carbon credits could be treated like
> cash. Earn carbon credits for your grandchildren.
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com<mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com>>
> *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>>
> *Cc:* David Yarrow <mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com<mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>> ; terrapreta
> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2007 11:33 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] Fw: a tiny outburst of common sense
>
> Yes, 25x25 is a good example of how some states and
> municipalities are moving forward despite a stalemated federal
> government that is mostly captive of lobbyists who has
> institutionalized access to Congress.
>
> Of course I like the drift of your "Pay It Forward" phrase but it
> is not likely to travel well in a society addicted to "Pay It
> Later" consumer credit. Thus, I prefer the phrase "Invest Now"
> which limits the sense of a burden to pay, replacing it with a
> sense of future opportunity. I think that in all our messaging we
> need to stress that we are not talking about guilt, or
> reparations, or penalties but, instead , about a better and more
> abundant way.
>
> hugs,
>
> lou
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 12:37 PM, Sean K. Barry <sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>
> <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>>> wrote:
>
> Hi Lou,
>
> The Minnesota state legislature was the first in the nation to
> enact a Global Climate Change Mitigation strategy into law. It
> is called "25 by 25" (25% reduction by 2025) bill. It does
> exactly what you propose. It requires the electric utility
> Exel Energy, to replace 25% of their electric generating
> capacity with wind and other renewables by the year 2025. It
> is the first law of its kind and it is being accomplished
> ahead of schedule. My belief is that the ball needs to keep
> rolling and even faster after 2025.
>
> There is a phrase I thought of later yesterday ... "Pay It
> Forward" ... It was the title of a movie about soccer , I
> think , too. But the idea to me seems that we need to change
> from operating to get what we need now into more one of
> getting for futture generations what they will need then. We
> have to live now only to sustain livability for others after
> us. This is very different than live and let live, to each
> his own, every man for himself, and capitalistic markets,
> etc. It is more like realizing that its pay back time. We
> cannot any longer sustain the resource extraction and ignore
> the waste paradigm. We need to think about sustaining people,
> people in other places and at later times.
>
> We have to pay our abundance forward.
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* lou gold <mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com<mailto:lou.gold at gmail.com>>
> *To:* Sean K. Barry <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>>
> *Cc:* David Yarrow <mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com<mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>> ;
> terrapreta <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 17, 2007 4:13 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Terrapreta] Fw: a tiny outburst of common
> sense
>
> Yep, and politics has its ways to distort all the logic
> and market forces. For example, the most recent US energy
> bill avoided two opportunities to guide business as usual
> into new directions. One would have required utilities to
> generate an increasing share of their power from renewable
> sources like wind. The other would have rolled back about
> $12 billion in tax breaks granted to the oil companies in
> the last energy bill and used the proceeds to help develop
> cleaner fuels and new energy technologies.
>
> That's politics as usual. But, I believe there's an even
> deeper "logic" at work: the industrial age paradigm
> generates both profits and progress from resource
> extraction and disregard for waste. It approaches limits
> through depletions and pollutions. It generates a zero-sum
> politics of scarcity. Viewed from the perspective of the
> earth, the human race is a vast collection of "haves" and
> "have-nots" in a process of taking and wasting and
> fighting for the spoils. This is the field on which
> business-as-usual plays. The rich get richer, and so on....
>
> I keep thinking that there is another logic deeply
> embedded in the terra preta model. Rather than a one-way
> taking from the earth by the human race, it presents the
> possibility of reciprocities that have not been part of
> the previous industrial paradigm. In essence, it shows a
> view from the earth which says that by capturing and
> converting waste into soil, we the human race may enter a
> process of giving and using. This, in turn, presents a
> potential for moving us from exhaustion toward abundance
> and generates a new playing field for business-as-usual.
> It suggests the possibility of truly sustainable abundance
> and a system in which all get richer.
>
> Respectfully, I would like to suggest that this is a
> revolutionary shift -- a sea change -- that requires a
> leap of faith from familiar notions of scarcity into
> off-our-present-map novel notions of abundance. It may
> turn out that consciousness-as-usual is as much or even
> more of an obstacle than business-as-usual.
>
> We have quite a song to sing. Let's do it.
>
> OK, that's my-your-our dream.
>
> hugs,
>
> lou
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2007 10:48 PM, Sean K. Barry <
> sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com> <mailto:sean.barry at juno.com<mailto:sean.barry at juno.com>>> wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
> I just read something called "Jevons Paradox". Duane
> Pendergast referred me to it. It is related to a
> "logical fallacy", called "affirming the consequent",
> and I think, an incorrect working the modus tollens or
> modus ponens rule?
>
> The applicable "fallacy" in the article you referred
> points out that you cannot rely on conservation of use
> of fossil fuels to lower fossil fuel consumption.
> Reducing the demand (conservation or raising the
> efficiencies) will lower prices temporarily, but
> eventually will result in increased demand again. If
> we conserve, then carbon demand and consumption will
> not go up? ... doesn't work. That dog don't hunt.
> That is a weak induction argument. The market forces
> will drive an increase in total demand for fossil
> fuels. It is a powerful mechanism that has built most
> of all the world wide monopolies.
>
> The only logical method applicable, is a correct use
> of "inference", when A => B, says not A means not B
> and also not B means not A. The way to use this to
> stop burning fossil fuels, is not to burn less
> (conservation), but rather to stop mining and drilling
> for (supplying) fossil carbon fuels! Or, eliminate
> the supply altogether and that will definitely lower
> the total demand and consumption,. If supply A, then
> demand B (and consumption), means that without supply
> => then no demand (and no consumption) in a market.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox>
>
> In a world where the demand for energy is intense,
> crucial, and intensifying, the fossil fuel energy
> industry is in its hey day.
> They operate in a vast market, which allows them to
> promote conservation and at the same time drive up
> corporate revenues.
> As for their "renewable energy" objectives, in an open
> market, replacement of fossil carbon fuel will
> eliminate the demand and consumption, only if
> replacement "renewable energy" sources are found at a
> lower price and can completely replace the "energy"
> content of the fossil carbon fuels. As long as there
> are people who can only buy fossil carbon fuels, then
> suppliers will always be able to sell at just about
> any price. If the supply becomes so precious and
> rare, it will price right into unavailability for all.
>
> Without replacement of the "energy" sources, we ALL
> will not have enough available "energy" resources to
> live and work as we now do. Conservation is the
> "bait" of markets that fossil fuel suppliers are
> running, along with automobile manufacturers, and
> politicians who's futures are bent on the "status quo"
> of open markets acting like open markets. This is
> just business. Business as usual is their moniker.
> What would you do, doing so well in business, to
> consider changing what you are doing?
>
> Maybe we should consider creating the business of
> "Eliminating Fossil Carbon Fuel Consumption", and use
> the logic of eliminating (or taxing the shit out of)
> fossil fuel supply, in order to rid the world of
> noxious carbon dioxide pollution?
>
>
> "The government's climate change policy works like
> this: extract every last drop of fossil fuel then pray
> to God that no one uses it."
>
> Regards,
>
> SKB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* David Yarrow <mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com<mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>>
> *To:* terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>
> <mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org<mailto:terrapreta at bioenergylists.org>>
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:19 PM
> *Subject:* [Terrapreta] Fw: a tiny outburst of
> common sense
>
> The Technology That Will Save Us from Runaway
> Climate Change
> - George Monbiot
> http://www.alternet.org/story/70302/<http://www.alternet.org/story/70302/>
>
> David Yarrow
> "If yer not forest, yer against us."
> Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
> 44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
> dyarrow at nycap.rr.com<mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com> <mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com<mailto:dyarrow at nycap.rr.com>>
> www.championtrees.org<http://www.championtrees.org/> <http://www.championtrees.org<http://www.championtrees.org/>>
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> <http://www.OnondagaLakePeaceFestival.org<http://www.onondagalakepeacefestival.org/>>
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> www.farmandfood.org<http://www.farmandfood.org/> <http://www.farmandfood.org<http://www.farmandfood.org/>>
> www.SeaAgri.com<http://www.seaagri.com/> <http://www.SeaAgri.com<http://www.seaagri.com/>>
>
> "Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times,
> if one only remembers to turn on the light."
> -Albus Dumbledore
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