[Terrapreta] charcoal and natural gas - new auto fueling setup

[jim mason]

i agree the potential for hybrid solid/gas storage technologies is
very interesting.  i was excited to see kelpie's article on this, and
also wanting more techinical detail.  this detail was not available
from energtek.  such an omission could suggest vaporware or they are
just protecting their ip.  we can't know, so let's be generous.

either way, using activited charcoal for all sorts of things is a very
old technology.  i'd imagine we can find somewhere in the literature
and/or patent files info on using it to increase the density of gas
storage.  however, this seems counterintuitive to me unless there is
some sort of molecular recombination in and out of the storage, but i
am not very familar with these technologies.

and yes, fuel density continues to be a central fulcrum for all alt
fuel scenarios in mobile or small scale apps.  such continues to favor
liquids heavily.  i personally do not think gases will get major
traction due to the infrastructure and transaction inefficiencies.
and if any do, it will be CH4 and not H2.

granulated solids have attractive potential and deserve more
attention, especially charcoal.  charcoal and water is a powerful
combination.  and the water usually does not need extra transportation
input. (and yes, this is what we discuss on the gasification list).

jim



On Dec 19, 2007 11:20 AM, Kelpie Wilson <kelpie at kelpiewilson.com> wrote:
>
>  Kevin,
>  You might be right about this technology. I don't know. I thought it was an
> interesting idea that the group would want to know about. Sure, the article
> is light on detail. That's why I sent it in the hope that people on the list
> might know more.
>
>  In general, energy storage is one of the biggest obstacles that renewable
> energy technologies of all kinds are facing. That is why biofuels
> development has been oriented toward liquid fuels, because they store well.
> The other option for biomass energy storage has been to power electrical
> generation thru combustion. Electricity can then be stored in batteries, but
> battery technology is less than satisfactory for cost and efficiency. The
> idea of storing gas in charcoal is an interesting possibility and would seem
> to integrate well in biochar plus energy combinations.
>
>  Perhaps this list is not the place to discuss such things and I should post
> this at the gasification list instead. I haven't been subscribed to that
> list, but I think I will do that.
>
>  Regards,
>  Kelpie
>
>
>
>  At 10:49 AM 12/19/2007, you wrote:
>
> Dear Kelpie
>
>  Kelpie Wilson wrote:
>
> Well excuse me, Kevin. Sorry for taking up your bandwidth.I would really
> appreciate it if you would be kind enough to point out where I am wrong. If
> I am wrong, I will thank you for keeping me out of future trouble. If I am
> right, it might be helpful to you in teh future in improving the helpfulness
> of your very interesting articles.
>
>  Why is it OK for the writers of that article to annoy and bore technically
> competent people with misleading and irresponsible fluff stuff, where they
> even warn the reader that it is "forward looking", yet I get criticized for
> inconvenient truths?
>
>  Best wishes,
>
>  Kevin
>
> -Kelpie
>
>
>
>  At 10:06 AM 12/19/2007, you wrote:
>
>
> Dear Kelpie
>
>  I don't wish to appear overly negative, but the article comes across as
> "loosey-goosey fluff stuff." The TP site supposed to be at least a semi
> technical forum, rather than "30 second clip, popular press."
>
>  If charcoal can indeed do what the article infers, then wonderful!!
> However, all the article does is make warm noises, and specifically avoids
> telling anything that would give one a basis for believing the concept is
> feasible.
>
>  When one digs to the root, one finds http://www.energtek.com/. This then
> leads to http://www.energtek.com/Angstore/Adsorption.htm
>  which says even less than the initial article.
>
>  Why don't they tell anything specific about how the concept will result in
> an improvement?
>
>  Then we see "Investor Relations." Oh, oh.
>  "This press release contains forward looking statements, including those
> related to future product
>  plans, which involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties, which
> together with other factors
>  could cause actual results to differ materially from the anticipated
> results, performance or
>  achievements expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements. For a
> discussion of these
>  and other known risks and uncertainties, individuals should refer to
> Energtek's SEC filings.
>  Energtek does not undertake an obligation to update forward looking
> statements."
>
>  This caveat sort of makes one nervous about anything they say.
>
>  Best wishes,
>
>  Kevin
>
>  Kelpie Wilson wrote:
>
>
> Here is another great thing that charcoal can do.
>  I wonder if it is possible that syngas produced by pyrolisis can be cleaned
> up, compressed, and stored back in the charcoal it came from? Or more likely
> in other charcoal that is formulated to the correct specs. Either way, this
> points to a possibly much more efficient use of biomass for transport than
> ethanol.
>
>  -Kelpie
>
>
>  http://www.enn.com/top_stories/commentary/27757
>
>  <b>Adsorbed Natural Gas: Fuel Storage Solution?</b>
>  Environmental News Network
>
>  Wednesday 19 December 2007
>
>  Here's a quiz to test your green car knowledge. Which is considered the
> greenest, most environmentally friendly, highway capable car sold by a major
> manufacturer in the US?
>
>  If you thought Toyota Prius you'd be wrong. According to the American
> Council for an Energy Efficient Economy (ACEEE), as well as the US
> Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), it's actually Honda's Civic GX NGV,
> or Natural Gas Vehicle. The EPA has given the car that distinction since
> 1998 when it was first introduced, at that time to fleets only. (The ACEEE
> has done the same but only since 2000 when it was first offered to
> consumers.)
>
>  Why the Civic and not the Prius? Greenness is not just about CO2 emissions
> and fuel economy, it's also about smog-producing pollutants. As a fuel,
> natural gas just burns cleaner than gasoline. (Which is why you can boil
> your potatoes on your gas-fired kitchen range without dying.)
>
>  In cars and trucks, noxious pollutants from natural gas are 60-90 percent
> less than petrol. And there is a greenhouse gas emission benefit as well,
> natural gas has 30-40 percent less carbon dioxide in its exhaust stream.
>
>  So between low smog-producing pollutants and low greenhouse gas emissions,
> natural gas used in vehicles, mostly in its compressed form - CNG
> (compressed natural gas) - is pretty green stuff.
>
>  If it's so wonderful, why hasn't natural gas taken off as a green fuel? For
> a time, along with propane (aka LPG), it was the darling of the green car
> community. Then hybrids came along giving better fuel economy than natural
> gas.
>
>  Further, at least for consumers, there are other concerns. Not everyone is
> enthusiastic about filling a vehicle with pressurized gas which requires
> slightly more expertise to pump safely than gasoline. From an engineering
> standpoint, too, there are challenges. The robustly-built pressurized
> cylinders are hard to squeeze into the confines of an automobile body,
> There's a physical limit as how many can be squeezed into the trunk of car,
> like the Civic.
>
>  And there are cost, weight and safety considerations as well for those
> tanks which hold the gas under high pressure. The list price of a Civic GX
> NGV is about two thousand more than the Civic hybrid which, in part, may
> reflect the cost of the CNG storage tanks.
>
>  Now there's an emerging storage technology that should make natural gas
> aficionados perk up. It's called Adsorbed Natural Gas (ANG), and it's
> surprising simple.
>
>  It goes something like this. If you fill a standard high pressure CNG
> cylinder with nanoporous material such as activated charcoal (the same stuff
> used in fish tank filters) the cylinder will hold MORE natural gas at high
> pressure than a tank would hold without being filled with the material.
>
>  Or, in more interesting and game-changing scenarios, the standard high
> pressure tank can hold the SAME amount of natural gas at LESS pressure,
> making filling the tank much easier, or ANG tanks can be free-shape
> containers since the pressures are a lot less and the cylindrical shape is
> not necessary.
>
>  To recap the ANG technology, with nanoporous material (that fish tank
> activated charcoal) more natural gas can be stored at high pressure, the
> same amount stored at less pressure, and or tanks can be designed with a
> free form shape.
>
>  It's the last part of story that should perk up ears like a dog listening
> to a strange noise. Less pressure for adequate storage means high pressure
> cylinders are no longer needed. A lightly pressurized natural gas tank can
> look like just about anything and be fitted into the same location as a
> standard gasoline tank in a car. Tanks can be bigger, have greater volume
> and hold more gas, thus giving more driving range. Further, the low pressure
> tanks, being easier to fill make fueling infrastructure less costly. (High
> pressure pumps are expensive.)
>
>  One company working with the technology is Energtek of Valley Stream New
> York. That company has announced it is working with the Department of Energy
> of the Republic of the Philippines, along with the Philippines National Oil
> Company Exploration Corporation, to build an ANG three-wheeler in the hopes
> of commercializing the technology for two and three wheeled vehicles
> throughout Asia to help clean the air.
>
>  There's more to the simple technology than just better tanks in cars. It
> can also be used to store natural gas at filling stations reducing the cost
> of these facilities.
>
>  Dreaming a bit, too; fuel cell vehicles could use ANG technology to store
> natural gas, not hydrogen. Some think that fueling a fuel cell vehicle with
> natural gas reformed on board into hydrogen would be easier than storing
> hydrogen itself. If ANG made it simpler, easier, and cheaper to store
> natural gas then it would also help move fuel cell vehicles forward.
>
>  A few other good points about natural gas. There's more of it worldwide
> than oil. The US produces about 87 percent of its own natural gas. Much of
> the world's natural gas is flared off and wasted. Further, the main
> component of natural gas - methane - is being made all the time. Check your
> local landfill site, sewage treatment plant, or the septic tank in your yard
> for sources. And while natural gas filling stations are rare, Honda offers
> its Phill home refueling station.
>
>  There's a downside to natural gas, of course. If we suddenly started using
> it in cars and trucks on a wide scale the demand would increase, along with
> imports. But it is feasible that the greater efficiency of fuel cells would
> lessen that demand, at least for a while.
>
>  Still, there's lots of natural gas on the planet, we're making more all the
> time, and now there may be a really simple and cheap way to store it.
>
>  <b>Links:</b>
>
>  Energtek
>  http://www.energtek.com < http://www.energtek.com/>
>
>
>  Honda Civic GX NGV
>  http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx
>
>  Kelpie Wilson
>  PO Box 1444
>  Cave Junction, OR 97523
>
>  home office phone: 541-592-3083
>  cell (used only when traveling) 213-925-1517
>
>  /For an archive of my writing and reviews of my novel Primal Tears, visit
> www.kelpiewilson.com < http://www.kelpiewilson.com/>
>
>  < http://www.kelpiewilson.com/>/
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
>  http://info.bioenergylists.org < http://info.bioenergylists.org/>
>
>
> Kelpie Wilson
>  PO Box 1444
>  Cave Junction, OR 97523
>
>  home office phone: 541-592-3083
>  cell (used only when traveling) 213-925-1517
>
>  /For an archive of my writing and reviews of my novel Primal Tears, visit
> www.kelpiewilson.com
>
>  < http://www.kelpiewilson.com/>/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Kelpie Wilson
>  PO Box 1444
>  Cave Junction, OR 97523
>
>  home office phone: 541-592-3083
>  cell (used only when traveling) 213-925-1517
>
>  For an archive of my writing and reviews of my novel Primal Tears, visit
> www.kelpiewilson.com
>
>
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>



-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jim mason
website: www.whatiamupto.com
current project: mechabolic (http://www.mechabolic.org)
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