[Terrapreta] charcoal and natural gas - new auto fueling setup

[Kelpie Wilson]

Kevin,
You might be right about this technology. I don't know. I thought it 
was an interesting idea that the group would want to know about. 
Sure, the article is light on detail. That's why I sent it in the 
hope that people on the list might know more.

In general, energy storage is one of the biggest obstacles that 
renewable energy technologies of all kinds are facing. That is why 
biofuels development has been oriented toward liquid fuels, because 
they store well. The other option for biomass energy storage has been 
to power electrical generation thru combustion. Electricity can then 
be stored in batteries, but battery technology is less than 
satisfactory for cost and efficiency. The idea of storing gas in 
charcoal is an interesting possibility and would seem to integrate 
well in biochar plus energy combinations.

Perhaps this list is not the place to discuss such things and I 
should post this at the gasification list instead. I haven't been 
subscribed to that list, but I think I will do that.

Regards,
Kelpie



At 10:49 AM 12/19/2007, you wrote:
>Dear Kelpie
>
>Kelpie Wilson wrote:
>>Well excuse me, Kevin. Sorry for taking up your bandwidth.
>I would really appreciate it if you would be kind enough to point 
>out where I am wrong. If I am wrong, I will thank you for keeping me 
>out of future trouble. If I am right, it might be helpful to you in 
>teh future in improving the helpfulness of your very interesting articles.
>
>Why is it OK for the writers of that article to annoy and bore 
>technically competent people with misleading and irresponsible fluff 
>stuff, where they even warn the reader that it is "forward looking", 
>yet I get criticized for inconvenient truths?
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Kevin
>>-Kelpie
>>
>>At 10:06 AM 12/19/2007, you wrote:
>>>Dear Kelpie
>>>
>>>I don't wish to appear overly negative, but the article comes 
>>>across as "loosey-goosey fluff stuff." The TP site supposed to be 
>>>at least a semi technical forum, rather than "30 second clip, popular press."
>>>
>>>If charcoal can indeed do what the article infers, then 
>>>wonderful!! However, all the article does is make warm noises, and 
>>>specifically avoids telling anything that would give one a basis 
>>>for believing the concept is feasible.
>>>
>>>When one digs to the root, one finds http://www.energtek.com/. 
>>>This then leads to http://www.energtek.com/Angstore/Adsorption.htm
>>>which says even less than the initial article.
>>>
>>>Why don't they tell anything specific about how the concept will 
>>>result in an improvement?
>>>
>>>Then we see "Investor Relations." Oh, oh.
>>>"This press release contains forward looking statements, including 
>>>those related to future product
>>>plans, which involve known and unknown risks and uncertainties, 
>>>which together with other factors
>>>could cause actual results to differ materially from the 
>>>anticipated results, performance or
>>>achievements expressed or implied by such forward-looking 
>>>statements. For a discussion of these
>>>and other known risks and uncertainties, individuals should refer 
>>>to Energtek's SEC filings.
>>>Energtek does not undertake an obligation to update forward 
>>>looking statements."
>>>
>>>This caveat sort of makes one nervous about anything they say.
>>>
>>>Best wishes,
>>>
>>>Kevin
>>>
>>>Kelpie Wilson wrote:
>>>>Here is another great thing that charcoal can do.
>>>>I wonder if it is possible that syngas produced by pyrolisis can 
>>>>be cleaned up, compressed, and stored back in the charcoal it 
>>>>came from? Or more likely in other charcoal that is formulated to 
>>>>the correct specs. Either way, this points to a possibly much 
>>>>more efficient use of biomass for transport than ethanol.
>>>>
>>>>-Kelpie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.enn.com/top_stories/commentary/27757
>>>>
>>>><b>Adsorbed Natural Gas: Fuel Storage Solution?</b>
>>>>Environmental News Network
>>>>
>>>>Wednesday 19 December 2007
>>>>
>>>>Here's a quiz to test your green car knowledge. Which is 
>>>>considered the greenest, most environmentally friendly, highway 
>>>>capable car sold by a major manufacturer in the US?
>>>>
>>>>If you thought Toyota Prius you'd be wrong. According to the 
>>>>American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy (ACEEE), as well 
>>>>as the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), it's actually 
>>>>Honda's Civic GX NGV, or Natural Gas Vehicle. The EPA has given 
>>>>the car that distinction since 1998 when it was first introduced, 
>>>>at that time to fleets only. (The ACEEE has done the same but 
>>>>only since 2000 when it was first offered to consumers.)
>>>>
>>>>Why the Civic and not the Prius? Greenness is not just about CO2 
>>>>emissions and fuel economy, it's also about smog-producing 
>>>>pollutants. As a fuel, natural gas just burns cleaner than 
>>>>gasoline. (Which is why you can boil your potatoes on your 
>>>>gas-fired kitchen range without dying.)
>>>>
>>>>In cars and trucks, noxious pollutants from natural gas are 60-90 
>>>>percent less than petrol. And there is a greenhouse gas emission 
>>>>benefit as well, natural gas has 30-40 percent less carbon 
>>>>dioxide in its exhaust stream.
>>>>
>>>>So between low smog-producing pollutants and low greenhouse gas 
>>>>emissions, natural gas used in vehicles, mostly in its compressed 
>>>>form - CNG (compressed natural gas) - is pretty green stuff.
>>>>
>>>>If it's so wonderful, why hasn't natural gas taken off as a green 
>>>>fuel? For a time, along with propane (aka LPG), it was the 
>>>>darling of the green car community. Then hybrids came along 
>>>>giving better fuel economy than natural gas.
>>>>
>>>>Further, at least for consumers, there are other concerns. Not 
>>>>everyone is enthusiastic about filling a vehicle with pressurized 
>>>>gas which requires slightly more expertise to pump safely than 
>>>>gasoline. From an engineering standpoint, too, there are 
>>>>challenges. The robustly-built pressurized cylinders are hard to 
>>>>squeeze into the confines of an automobile body, There's a 
>>>>physical limit as how many can be squeezed into the trunk of car, 
>>>>like the Civic.
>>>>
>>>>And there are cost, weight and safety considerations as well for 
>>>>those tanks which hold the gas under high pressure. The list 
>>>>price of a Civic GX NGV is about two thousand more than the Civic 
>>>>hybrid which, in part, may reflect the cost of the CNG storage tanks.
>>>>
>>>>Now there's an emerging storage technology that should make 
>>>>natural gas aficionados perk up. It's called Adsorbed Natural Gas 
>>>>(ANG), and it's surprising simple.
>>>>
>>>>It goes something like this. If you fill a standard high pressure 
>>>>CNG cylinder with nanoporous material such as activated charcoal 
>>>>(the same stuff used in fish tank filters) the cylinder will hold 
>>>>MORE natural gas at high pressure than a tank would hold without 
>>>>being filled with the material.
>>>>
>>>>Or, in more interesting and game-changing scenarios, the standard 
>>>>high pressure tank can hold the SAME amount of natural gas at 
>>>>LESS pressure, making filling the tank much easier, or ANG tanks 
>>>>can be free-shape containers since the pressures are a lot less 
>>>>and the cylindrical shape is not necessary.
>>>>
>>>>To recap the ANG technology, with nanoporous material (that fish 
>>>>tank activated charcoal) more natural gas can be stored at high 
>>>>pressure, the same amount stored at less pressure, and or tanks 
>>>>can be designed with a free form shape.
>>>>
>>>>It's the last part of story that should perk up ears like a dog 
>>>>listening to a strange noise. Less pressure for adequate storage 
>>>>means high pressure cylinders are no longer needed. A lightly 
>>>>pressurized natural gas tank can look like just about anything 
>>>>and be fitted into the same location as a standard gasoline tank 
>>>>in a car. Tanks can be bigger, have greater volume and hold more 
>>>>gas, thus giving more driving range. Further, the low pressure 
>>>>tanks, being easier to fill make fueling infrastructure less 
>>>>costly. (High pressure pumps are expensive.)
>>>>
>>>>One company working with the technology is Energtek of Valley 
>>>>Stream New York. That company has announced it is working with 
>>>>the Department of Energy of the Republic of the Philippines, 
>>>>along with the Philippines National Oil Company Exploration 
>>>>Corporation, to build an ANG three-wheeler in the hopes of 
>>>>commercializing the technology for two and three wheeled vehicles 
>>>>throughout Asia to help clean the air.
>>>>
>>>>There's more to the simple technology than just better tanks in 
>>>>cars. It can also be used to store natural gas at filling 
>>>>stations reducing the cost of these facilities.
>>>>
>>>>Dreaming a bit, too; fuel cell vehicles could use ANG technology 
>>>>to store natural gas, not hydrogen. Some think that fueling a 
>>>>fuel cell vehicle with natural gas reformed on board into 
>>>>hydrogen would be easier than storing hydrogen itself. If ANG 
>>>>made it simpler, easier, and cheaper to store natural gas then it 
>>>>would also help move fuel cell vehicles forward.
>>>>
>>>>A few other good points about natural gas. There's more of it 
>>>>worldwide than oil. The US produces about 87 percent of its own 
>>>>natural gas. Much of the world's natural gas is flared off and 
>>>>wasted. Further, the main component of natural gas - methane - is 
>>>>being made all the time. Check your local landfill site, sewage 
>>>>treatment plant, or the septic tank in your yard for sources. And 
>>>>while natural gas filling stations are rare, Honda offers its 
>>>>Phill home refueling station.
>>>>
>>>>There's a downside to natural gas, of course. If we suddenly 
>>>>started using it in cars and trucks on a wide scale the demand 
>>>>would increase, along with imports. But it is feasible that the 
>>>>greater efficiency of fuel cells would lessen that demand, at 
>>>>least for a while.
>>>>
>>>>Still, there's lots of natural gas on the planet, we're making 
>>>>more all the time, and now there may be a really simple and cheap 
>>>>way to store it.
>>>>
>>>><b>Links:</b>
>>>>
>>>>Energtek
>>>>http://www.energtek.com <http://www.energtek.com/>
>>>>
>>>>Honda Civic GX NGV
>>>>http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx
>>>>
>>>>Kelpie Wilson
>>>>PO Box 1444
>>>>Cave Junction, OR 97523
>>>>
>>>>home office phone: 541-592-3083
>>>>cell (used only when traveling) 213-925-1517
>>>>
>>>>/For an archive of my writing and reviews of my novel Primal 
>>>>Tears, visit www.kelpiewilson.com <http://www.kelpiewilson.com/>
>>>>
>>>>< http://www.kelpiewilson.com/>/
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Terrapreta mailing list
>>>>Terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
>>>>http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar/
>>>>http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org 
>>>><http://terrapreta.bioenergylists.org/>
>>>>http://info.bioenergylists.org <http://info.bioenergylists.org/>
>>>
>>>
>>Kelpie Wilson
>>PO Box 1444
>>Cave Junction, OR 97523
>>
>>home office phone: 541-592-3083
>>cell (used only when traveling) 213-925-1517
>>
>>/For an archive of my writing and reviews of my novel Primal Tears, 
>>visit www.kelpiewilson.com
>>
>><http://www.kelpiewilson.com/>/
>
>
>

Kelpie Wilson
PO Box 1444
Cave Junction, OR 97523

home office phone: 541-592-3083
cell (used only when traveling) 213-925-1517

For an archive of my writing and reviews of my novel Primal Tears, 
visit www.kelpiewilson.com

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /attachments/20071219/0cb6d51b/attachment.html