[Terrapreta] help

[Debbie Reed]

Hi,
  Is there a way to get just one or fewer emails per day from this list-serve?  I find the information and exchange very valuable, but the multiple emails daily are problematic.  Thanks very much for your response.  
   
  Debbie

terrapreta-request at bioenergylists.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Cost of charcoal amendment to soil. (Michael Bailes)
2. Re: Cost of charcoal amendment to soil. (Michael Bailes)
3. Re: (no subject) (rukurt at westnet.com.au)
4. A Movable Feast (Michael Bailes)
5. Re: Cost of charcoal amendment to soil. (rukurt at westnet.com.au)
6. Fwd: Cost of charcoal amendment to soil. (Michael Bailes)


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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:35:28 +1000
From: "Michael Bailes" 
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Cost of charcoal amendment to soil.
To: "Sean K. Barry" , terrapreta

Message-ID:
<7dcba7be0703272335r27f02530xdbb538ef752ae5b7 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On 28/03/07, Sean K. Barry wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> Hey, I'm sorry if I am coming off like an argumentative SOB in that last
> couple of posts.
>
> SKB
>
>
No problem Sean., I didn' think you did. Just authoritative. I need to learn
too.
I am no chemist, or soil scientist either, for that matter. I just
regurgitate what I read and am told. I can be wrong about everything except
politics and religion.

Silica must get into plants somehow. Horsetails "bark/skin" is like
sandpaper made up mainly of silica. It was once called "Scouring Rush" and
was used like steel wool to clean pots and pans.

-- 
Michael Bailes.

"I know the answer!
The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!
The answer is twelve?
I think I'm in the wrong building."
-- Charles M. Schulz
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:42:17 +1000
From: "Michael Bailes" 
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Cost of charcoal amendment to soil.
To: "Sean K. Barry" , terrapreta

Message-ID:
<7dcba7be0703272342n36a0ad83n2ec9f92ad07811a at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Here are a few hits from google as a"plant
nutrient"
ARS Project: DETERMINING THE ROLE OF *SILICON* AS A *PLANT NUTRIENT*
*...*Research
Project: DETERMINING THE ROLE OF *SILICON* AS A *PLANT NUTRIENT* AND
PROTECTANT IN BEDDING *PLANT* PRODUCTION. Location: Application Technology
Research *...*
ars.usda.gov/research/projects/projects.htm?accn_no=409206 - 50k -
Cached-
Similar
pages
Got
*silicon*? The non-essential beneficial *plant
nutrient*.Research
on a possible nutritional role for the element *silicon* has been hampered
by the diverse ben...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12753977&dopt=Abstract-
Similar
pages
*[PDF]* *Silicon*: The Estranged Medium
ElementFile
Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as
HTML
reinforce cell walls, increase *plant* mechanical. strength thereby
protecting *plants* against pathogens. and insects. *Silicon* Balances *Plant
Nutrient* *...*
edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/EP/EP07500.pdf - Similar
pages
The Anomaly of *Silicon* in *Plant*
Biology
*Plants* grown in conventional *nutrient* solutions are thus to an extent
experimental artifacts. Omission of *silicon* from solution cultures may
lead to *...*
www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/91/1/11 - Similar
pages
*Silicon* in Agriculture 
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:07:45 +1000
From: rukurt at westnet.com.au
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] (no subject)
To: "Sean K. Barry" 
Cc: terrapreta at bioenergylists.org
Message-ID: <460A1441.9060005 at westnet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Sean K. Barry wrote:
> Hi Kurt,
>
> In some paper I read last night, referred off this terrapreta.bioenergylist.org website, I read covering 10% of all arable land with 1.4% carbon mixture would keep up with the 6 gigatons/yr carbon emissions rate from fossil fuel burning to CO2. That rate may or may not compare relatively similar to the one you proposed, it depends on the thickness of the layer? Then again, maybe the back of an envelope person was trying to roll back carbon in the atmosphere to prehistoric levels.
> 

I think the carbon sequestration aspect of terrapreta is a bit of a 
chimera, a potential feel good to help farmers and gardeners do some 
terrapreting. Consider just how much carbon is coming out of the ground 
every day and being burnt. It's not just the fuel aspect of it all. 
There is also the heavy industry aspect. Just how much carbon is used in 
smelting up a ton of iron, making a ton of steel out of it, and what 
about other metal smelting that depends on the oxygen grabbing ability 
of carbon, to turn ores into useful metals.

Of course, cast iron and carbon steel both contain a lot of carbon, but 
they also burn a lot, and not just for heat, it's fundamental to the 
process that hot carbon grabs the O out of iron oxide, making CO2 and 
leaving molten iron behind.

See how many tanker loads of oil deliver every day, watch a miles long 
coal train go by and realise that to neutralise that movement of carbon 
out of the earth the same amount of carbon has to be going out to be 
incorporated into the soil.

Back in the early iron age whole continents were cleared of forests to 
do this very thing. Even using the best re-newable methods, we could 
never keep up with what is coming out of the ground. Perhaps we really 
need to get off the earth, capture asteroids, use the sun for power--- 
go sci-fi. Or, we need to use less. There need to be less of us.

Kurt
feeling introspective



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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:08:07 +1000
From: "Michael Bailes" 
Subject: [Terrapreta] A Movable Feast
To: terrapreta 
Message-ID:
<7dcba7be0703280008j7058f44ci56cd70e981a678a4 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>
> I want to make this very important point yet again ...
>
> *Whether "Terra Preta" can actually improve soil quality or not, it can
> very effectively sequester carbon from the atmosphere.*
>
> So, as long as the charcoal made and put into agricultural soil does not
> poison the soil and make it unable to grow crops, then I think it can be
> used to attempt to make "Terra Preta". I think putting any charcoal into
> any non-agricultural soils is just plain obviously a good carbon
> sequestration practice. We can call it "UN-MINING" of carbon and it really
> ought to receive carbon credits in a world-wide carbon trading market.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sean K. Barry
>

This is a point I made on hypography terra preta thread some time ago.
The answer was "Yes, but we want it to work too!"
So the bigger carrot/motivation for using char is better plant growth and
lower input costs of water and fertiliser.
Pure altruism will probably not cut it!
-- 

Ron is anyone saying rice hull char is the best?
I found it very fine and i think its high pH killed a prize aquilegia,
I preferred Chicken-layer-shed-manure char. It acted more like perlite and
gave good aeration of pots.
Then again from what has been said here about silicon it might be just the
thing for Winery grapes.
All chars are going to have slightly different benefits and drawbacks
When a pyrolisis plant is set up in an area the output should be tested in
partnership with local farmers and government agriculture departments

On the point about a movable pyrolysis plant to dispose of local waste I
heartily agree. it was my first question when I saw my first plant (Can I
have a small one to take home please? I NEED it!! pls! I have been a GOOD
boy)
Locally there is acres of seaweed polluting the edges of a vast, huge lake
system. i would love to see what a movable pyrolysis plant could make of
that.
There is also mammoth piles of wood offcuts at a local sawmill
Unfortunately the number of government environmental and safety regulation
"hoops" such a unit would have to "jump' though make it all but impossible.
also
How would you get electricity back into the grid from the pyrolysis plant
at lots of different points on the grid?
it is hard enough when the plant is in one spot.
Michael Bailes.

"I know the answer!
The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!
The answer is twelve?
I think I'm in the wrong building."
-- Charles M. Schulz
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:03:21 +1000
From: rukurt at westnet.com.au
Subject: Re: [Terrapreta] Cost of charcoal amendment to soil.
To: terrapreta 
Message-ID: <460A2149.5020908 at westnet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Robert Niederman wrote:
> What if we were to make charcoal out of all our home food waste,
> restaurant food waste, home yard, agricultural, and animal waste. And
> what if the city made charcoal out of all yard and park wastes and all
> municipal and county waste that could be burned? And what if the
> Federal government made charcoal out of all of its waste? How many tons
> would this amount to in one year? I bet we could beat Sean's estimates.
> Heck, Starbucks could probably contribute 1 gigaton of used coffee
> grounds all by itself! Then we would all be busy digging charcoal into
> our yards and making victory gardens.
>
> 
Yes, but we also want compost, to mix with the charcoal.

Kurt



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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:46:23 +1000
From: "Michael Bailes" 
Subject: [Terrapreta] Fwd: Cost of charcoal amendment to soil.
To: terrapreta 
Message-ID:
<7dcba7be0703280146l75b077b3i68368c7dca57c2b5 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Yes, but we also want compost, to mix with the charcoal.

Kurt

Yes good point "Terra preta" is not just charcoal.

But yes anything organic up to 70% water can be pyrolised.
Michaeltheachangel


-- 
Michael Bailes.

"I know the answer!
The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!
The answer is twelve?
I think I'm in the wrong building."
-- Charles M. Schulz
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